Bit Rot, Disc Rot, & Data Loss. An insightful look into Video Game Collecting

[Apocalypse612]

Due to the fact that you are unable to search text sub-strings under four letters, it made it difficult for me to find a post regarding this problem. So please excuse me if this has been mentioned before. To the beef of the topic.

We all know that video games, and technology in general, were not built to withstand the test of time. You've probably heard the phrase "We live a world of cheap technology" at least once, but I myself never really understood what that meant. After some research and reading, I think I've finally come to understand what that term means.

Many of you who probably have owned laser-discs are familiar with the term "laser-rot" or "Disc-Rot", but you should be aware that it doesn't only effect laser-discs.

Bit-Rot, Disc Rot, CD-Bronzing, whatever term you want to call it, all it comes down to is a loss of data. I did a bit of reading mainly from this topic here (http://www.rfgeneration.com/news/disc-rot/An-important-note-to-Video-Game-Sellers-and-Buyers-1337.php#NEW), and to be honest I'm not sure if it would be wise to invest any more of my money into video games.

Now don't get the wrong impression here. I'm an avid video game enthusiast and I have the strong belief that our retro video games not only serve as historical landmarks, but are also something that should be preserved so that future generations can look back and see where it all started.

Can I willingly invest any more of my money into this hobby (again, don't get me wrong, classic-retro games are something I have a passion for), knowing that they will almost certainly break down in the years to come? I'm sure almost anyone in the retro hobby agree's that emulation simply is NOT the same experience as holding the controller in hand and popping in the game on the system. "The Real Deal", as you might call it. Is this even realistic with how long the games we're shoveling out now are meant to last?


With all that being said, it would only make logical sense to sell it all before the breakdown occurs. It's going to pain me to do this, but what other choices are available? From my understanding, "rot" of the technology is unstoppable, and it just goes to show that the merchandise wasn't meant to endure the test of time. Any insight would be greatly appreciated.

On a side note, I think it is also worth mentioning that the Manuals that are packed with Video Games can cause damage to your games! Is it really all that surprising? The chemicals from the Manual can leech into the disc and even make it unplayable. This brings me to the conclusion that Sealed-Game Collecting is pretty pointless. Also for the older-based battery games, after aging won't the acids in the battery leak all over the board of the game, thus ruining it indefinitely? I'm no whiz when it comes to technology, but theses are just a few of my speculations that I have noticed throughout the course of my collecting.

[kaedesdisciple]

First things first, Google is your friend. Do a Google search for:
bit rot site:digitpress.com/forum
and you'll be pleasantly surprised. Circumventing the character limit on search here has been discussed at length.

As far as games being an investment, stop thinking of them as such. All physical things will break down over time. You want an investment? Put your money into the financial market(s) of your choice. Smart investments there will ALWAYS make more money over time than trying to "invest" in a bunch of pieces of plastic that only MIGHT be worth something to a small population of the world.

I'm pretty sure that argument has been stated at length as well...

[Apocalypse612]

Thanks for the bit on the search, I wasn't aware you could to this. As far as the investment part is concered, I'm not saying that I don't enjoy playing and collecting games. It's just hard to to invest in collecting knowing that they will soon break down and (possibly) become worthless in the near future. That's just my two cents.

[YoshiM]

Many of you who probably have owned laser-discs are familiar with the term "laser-rot" or "Disc-Rot", but you should be aware that it doesn't only effect laser-discs.

Bit-Rot, Disc Rot, CD-Bronzing, whatever term you want to call it, all it comes down to is a loss of data.
Yep, this is a phenomenon well know to many of us, especially those that still have their C64's or Atari computers with floppy disks. Heck, even tapes degrade over time. However is it as big a deal as what you and others are making it out to be? Hard to say. Most of us have games and systems that date back to the early 70's that still work like the day they came off the assembly line. I've got 20+ year old video tapes that STILL work and look/sound great.



I did a bit of reading mainly from this topic here (http://www.rfgeneration.com/news/disc-rot/An-important-note-to-Video-Game-Sellers-and-Buyers-1337.php#NEW), and to be honest I'm not sure if it would be wise to invest any more of my money into video games.
Not to sound sarcastic, but a collector of anything physical is at risk of their items possibly going sour. Paint/plastic/etc. possibly fading/yellowing due to fluorescent light, book collectors having their tomes yellow and become brittle, car collectors having their autos rust or not run...the list goes on. But yet they still collect.

To take it to the illogical extreme: why buy anything as it's just going to fall apart/malfunction later?


Can I willingly invest any more of my money into this hobby (again, don't get me wrong, classic-retro games are something I have a passion for), knowing that they will almost certainly break down in the years to come?
See what I said above. It's a risk you take but if you like collecting and retro gaming on real hardware, why deny yourself the fun based on what can happen? I used to debate that very same thing with my original Xbox that I have great games for and some DLC I can't get anymore. I could have chucked the whole shebang after I replaced the third DVD drive but I like the games too much to not do that.


With all that being said, it would only make logical sense to sell it all before the breakdown occurs. It's going to pain me to do this, but what other choices are available? From my understanding, "rot" of the technology is unstoppable, and it just goes to show that the merchandise wasn't meant to endure the test of time. Any insight would be greatly appreciated.
With that mentality, again, why collect anything at all? We all die and we can't take it with us.

As for merchandise not meant to endure the test of time-what era are we talking about here? As I read it seems that this thread has a more modern slant. With the horror stories of 360's and original Xbox's and original PS2's having problems, how does this filter back to older hardware? I've heard cartridges dying but it's few and far between and in many of those cases it's just damage to the board itself for whatever reason.

I haven't run into a dead NES or Atari cart yet. Dirty as hell, yes but never a lost cause. Only cart I have problems with is Spy Hunter for the VCS and that I think is a board problem but I don't wanna damage the case to get at it.


On a side note, I think it is also worth mentioning that the Manuals that are packed with Video Games can cause damage to your games! Is it really all that surprising? The chemicals from the Manual can leech into the disc and even make it unplayable. This brings me to the conclusion that Sealed-Game Collecting is pretty pointless. Also for the older-based battery games, after aging won't the acids in the battery leak all over the board of the game, thus ruining it indefinitely? I'm no whiz when it comes to technology, but theses are just a few of my speculations that I have noticed throughout the course of my collecting.

I'm no chemist but how in the hell do chemicals from the manual "leech" onto a disc or a cartridge for that matter? Unless the game case is dropped in water and the wet manual sticks to the game or the chemicals run off the paper and pool on/in the game and even then what's the chances of a cd/dvd based game not running after a little clean up (cartridge is another matter). If anything, wouldn't the manual smell like a cartridge after a while?

As for batteries-got a point there. However, I think the damage can be fixed by cleaning the corrosion off the circuit board. I don't know how caustic those button batteries are.

[Apocalypse612]

I found this thread here (http://www.digitpress.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1729147) thanks to kaedesdisciples suggestion, which pretty much covers the same topic. I may be coming off a little paranoid, but I know that this topic does at least worry a portion of the community from what I am seeing. Due to how relatively "new" video games are, in terms of age, I guess only time will tell us what happens to our games. My appologies for the "cloned" topic. I'm going to have to put in a bit more thought before I decide what I want to do as far as collecting goes. Thanks for the reponses.

[Berserker]

Confronting the inevitable decay of physical components is maybe a bit like confronting one's own mortality - the realization that one day you will stop working, and that this is unavoidable. So knowing this, is it more preferable to ponder the investment that goes into living, or rather just focus on the experience and enjoy what you have while you have it?

I guess the point I'm trying to make here is that I need to stop overthinking shit and plays me some damn video games.

[sebastiankirchoff]

Confronting the inevitable decay of physical components is maybe a bit like confronting one's own mortality - the realization that one day you will stop working, and that this is unavoidable. So knowing this, is it more preferable to ponder the investment that goes into living, or rather just focus on the experience and enjoy what you have while you have it?

I guess the point I'm trying to make here is that I need to stop overthinking shit and plays me some damn video games.

I second this. You are better off enjoying the games while they are around, instead of constantly worrying about how long they will last. I own around 140 laserdiscs, and while some of them suffer laser rot, most of them are still fine, and I enjoy them while they aren't affected. Same with my PlayStation I got as a kid, I still play with it all the time, and while I will be sad at it's death, but I will remember all the great times I had playing with it. I also collect VHS tapes, and while some of them have lasted a great long time (some of my oldest are around thirty years old and are ex-rentals, but still have great image), while some are only fifteen years old and look old and faded. It depends on who manufactured the product and how well it was made.

[Kitsune Sniper]

I don't collect much stuff from the very early ages of video games, but I do collect music CDs from all eras, and I'm well aware of disc rot. Many of my CDs have literally started to rot; many are simply unreadable by now, and a lot are rare as hell and worth some money. It's why I back them up to FLAC as soon as I get them.

You can't do that with videogames most of the time due to their copy protection.

It just sucks.

[jb143]

I had posted long and somewhat technical explination about why you shouldn't worry about it so much...but my internet messed up on me and now it's gone. Oh well...

Anyways, I say just play your games, collect all you want, and don't worry so much if your grandkids will get to play your games as well.

Also, museums are full of collections that would crumble to dust if you tried to touch them. That doesn't make them any less valuable or collectable.

[tom]

Funnily enough, the paper tape with Space War (1962) still works a treat, and I recently discovered a Quiz game on punch-card (1970s) for IBM computers, and I believe it'll work just fine.
My Magnavox Odyssey cards (1972) also still work fine.

[God-Zilla]

yes, but for people like me, wanting to start a museum, it all does matter :) I imagine things like the harmony cart/intellicart etc being the way I would ideally like to have the games available for play at the museum with the actual carts in your traditional displays; probably long after their data has died, long after I'm gone, they can still be seen and played on real hardware with 100% accuracy (I hope.) :)

[Natty Bumppo]

I have over 5k laserdiscs in my collection and I have been collecting since 1982.

From what I understand laser rot (none of the laser manufacturers ever really admitted it existed let alone explained it - but Pioneer for a long time had a really generous replacement policy that was clearly designed to deal with it and give confidence/support to the industry) was caused by impurities/problems in the glue (laserdiscs were two separate discs that were glued together) and it really didn't surface as being a problem until Pioneer took over the bulk of the industry (this wasn't because Pioneer entered the field, but a coincidence of timing) and Discovision was phased out. Which is why almost all Discovision discs are troubled by it but relatively few Pioneer or Image ones are (there are a few titles in the Pioneer discs (such as Willow WS) that are notorious for having problems.

I work in a library and virtually all of the reports we have of data being lost are about CDRs and DVDRs rather factory embedded discs. (Some of the reports don't specify what the discs were.)

-------------------------------------

Oddities can happen also - there was an odd case back in the seventies where a malfunctioning vaccuum cleaner created a magnetic field and zapped several cases full of audio cassettes that were stored in metal cabinets.

[megasdkirby]

Is there anything that can be done to at least reduce the amount of disc rot? Like use silica gel packs while storing or something similar?

It's a shame to have "prized" possessions and later realizing they can never be played.

[Parodius Duh!]

I dont worry about cartridge based games as much as disc based. Ive never actually encountered any rotted game, in any format.

Actual Film/television DVDs and Music CDs are a different story cause 9 times out of 10 all the materials used are the cheapest around. Most video games on Discs use higher quality materials.

[Bojay1997]

While I think the OP is a bit alarmist, there have been quite a few archival studies done in recent years showing that even factory pressed CDs can fail over time and like laserdiscs, the theory is that it is a material problem as opposed to a technology one. In fact, even some fairly recent CDs and DVDs suffer from the problem on occasion and it has little to do with whether they are CDr's, replicated or duplicated discs. I do think it's a serious concern and I can't imagine too many museums where people would go to see essentially non-working discs and cartridges. While a lot of us collect complete boxed games, the packaging is nice, but I think the hope is that we will be able to play them 50 years from now. Unfortunately, that's pretty unrealistic in many cases. I'm not sure what the solution is other than not to spend thousands of dollars on individual games and to make sure that you don't treat your collection as some kind of long-term investment.

[Natty Bumppo]

You should store lasers in a relatively cool area - mine live in a basement room so even in the summer (we don't use our central air conditioning and use a swamp cooler instead - much cheaper and feels better too) they don't get hot. (I also keep them off the walls with lathing and they are elevated a few inches above the floor to avoid condensation from the walls/floor.) You also have to be aware of where your heat vent is - you don't want them too close to that. I keep my vent in that room only partially open in any event.

I don't have any discovision discs in my collection since they were already having problems when I bought my first player. Out of the discs I remember buying in 1982, none have showed any problems yet. (Same is true of my first few cds - which I also started buying in 1982.)

[jb143]

With discs, as Natty Bumppo was alluding to, cheaply manufactured discs mean greater likelyhood of premature failure. Quality made discs mean they should last much much longer.

[God-Zilla]

good info, as I have many laserdisc video games I want to keep preserved for the museum... (halcyon thayers quest, palcon astron belt, many laseractive games, among others.) Now if only I could find an actual halcyon for my museum :)

[Bojay1997]

With discs, as Natty Bumppo was alluding to, cheaply manufactured discs mean greater likelyhood of premature failure. Quality made discs mean they should last much much longer.

The problem is, with video games, you really have no idea where they are coming from as Sony and the other companies all have a bunch of facilities which are approved and other than general quality control at release, there is no requirement that the discs be tested for likely future degradation. There was a great segment on Modern Marvels a few months back that showed the Smithsonian or the Library of Congress, I can't recall which and all the testing they are doing of digital formats. The chief digital archivist made it clear that they really have no idea which discs are more or less likely to degrade as even within a single batch by the same manufacturer, you can have failures.

[Bojay1997]

good info, as I have many laserdisc video games I want to keep preserved for the museum... (halcyon thayers quest, palcon astron belt, many laseractive games, among others.) Now if only I could find an actual halcyon for my museum :)

If you haven't noticed problems with your Thayer's Quest disc to date, it probably is not one that is prone to laser rot. A significant percentage of them are unfortunately. I have collected laserdiscs since the mid-80s and out of about 1,000 including many check and test discs and prototypes, I have only noticed a rot issue with my Discovision discs and a couple of 90s Pioneer discs which have known problems per other collectors. My storage routine is basically the same as Natty although our house is pretty tightly climate controlled at 70 degrees year round and living in California, we don't have extremes of heat or moisture most of the year.

[Rickstilwell1]

While I think the OP is a bit alarmist, there have been quite a few archival studies done in recent years showing that even factory pressed CDs can fail over time and like laserdiscs, the theory is that it is a material problem as opposed to a technology one. In fact, even some fairly recent CDs and DVDs suffer from the problem on occasion and it has little to do with whether they are CDr's, replicated or duplicated discs. I do think it's a serious concern and I can't imagine too many museums where people would go to see essentially non-working discs and cartridges. While a lot of us collect complete boxed games, the packaging is nice, but I think the hope is that we will be able to play them 50 years from now. Unfortunately, that's pretty unrealistic in many cases. I'm not sure what the solution is other than not to spend thousands of dollars on individual games and to make sure that you don't treat your collection as some kind of long-term investment.

The way I see it is that if I buy the game complete now and it stops working 20 years from now, at least I can still enjoy looking at the artwork and manuals before playing the game on my emulator just like I do before playing a real cartridge. And to preserve that art even more, I like to scan some of my stuff. The cart might stop working but it can still be looked at too.

If the system outlasts the games and all those games die out, I bet there will still be people making multicarts in the future. I'd just go get one of those. Then when the systems all die, people will follow in the footsteps of today's clone manufacturers and the systems may possibly become bundled with full multicarts or be totally rom based having an internal fullset with replica controllers nearly exactly like the originals. A clone or TV Game will usually have a more accurate feel than a pure emulator so there will still be a market for them.

See the thing about video game collecting is that it is one of the few kinds of collections that don't just set there. Coins and stamps just set there in a book and you don't want to touch the coins much if they are shiny because that will ruin their looks. If video games no longer worked I might still collect them for visuals if I could emulate the things in order to play them. The artwork will just eventually turn into the kind of collection that comics, stamps and coins are but people will still want them.

I seem to appreciate games more when they are earned and have a good display for me to look at. Something about seeing a CIB game on the shelf draws you to it and calls you to play it when it is there in plain sight teasing you. You don't get that feeling as much from a little cartridge because you don't see it as well from a distance. And with emulators alone, you don't get drawn to play anything as much because all you get to see is text. You end up only wanting to play one game for a little while then since you have the ability to switch with the push of a few buttons, you get that ADD of having too many options to choose from. Just like having a larger iPod, you might not listen to every song all the way through anymore.

[Xtincthed]

i've read a lot about discussions like these and participated in some over the years
in one of those, which i can't find at the moment, someone posted a link to a "scientific" article explaining the way cd's (was about playstation games) are produced and how cd-rot works

the baseline of the article was that badly printed cd's can fall victim to this, in my own experience, burnt cd's from the early years of cd-copying are decaying allready
As for profesionally printed or pressed cd's, they are much better protected because the data layer is between two layers of plastic

[badinsults]

Most cart based games use MASKROMs, which are relatively stable things. They will degrade over time due to bombardment from radiation, but they are shielded enough that it is not likely to be an issue during our lifetime. The thing more likely to go on your cart is the connectors due to wear and tear, but someone who is skilled with a soldering iron can likely fix that.

There is a bigger concern about carts that contain EPROMs, as the silicon is far more exposed, and therefore more likely to be disrupted by radiation. Most mass produced games don't use EPROMs, though.

[GarrettCRW]

It's not really all that awful with media so long as a high-quality digital resource exists. After all, the original negatives to The Godfather are in such poor shape that the restoration team declared that it'd crumble into dust if spooled into any sort of editing equipment. Besides the scans made of those negs, they have the separation masters and the interpositives, so there's no chance that we'll ever be deprived of the movie.

[wingzrow]

You know I DO have a copy of an NES game that for some unexplained reason has white dots on the picture no matter what NES or TV I use it on, Even after cleaning the connecting pins it's still covered in even white dots.

Would this be NES cart "bit rot"?

[Bojay1997]

It's not really all that awful with media so long as a high-quality digital resource exists. After all, the original negatives to The Godfather are in such poor shape that the restoration team declared that it'd crumble into dust if spooled into any sort of editing equipment. Besides the scans made of those negs, they have the separation masters and the interpositives, so there's no chance that we'll ever be deprived of the movie.

True, but losing the negative of a film is a tradgedy. Interpositives and separation masters as well as digital scans done after degradation has begun result in a less rich picture than the original master. For video games, I suppose it's less of an issue, but I think people are kidding themselves if they think cartridges or discs or CD/DVD media will last 70-80 years. I think it's more likely that we'll get 50 years of use on the outside for stuff that is really well preserved and stored properly. Keeping in mind that some of this stuff is already 30+ years old, it's something to think about.

[FABombjoy]

You know I DO have a copy of an NES game that for some unexplained reason has white dots on the picture no matter what NES or TV I use it on, Even after cleaning the connecting pins it's still covered in even white dots.

Would this be NES cart "bit rot"?
The only way to know for sure would be to desolder and dump the ROM, then compare it to a known good copy. I would place my bet on a problem somewhere between the cart edge and the ROM, rather than a defective chip.

[jb143]

The only way to know for sure would be to desolder and dump the ROM, then compare it to a known good copy. I would place my bet on a problem somewhere between the cart edge and the ROM, rather than a defective chip.

I'd say the same thing. If anything, it would be a chip with only graphics on it. Alter the program code in anyway and more than likely it would simply crash. It does sound more like a problem on the PCB...possibly a trace or component off one of the data lines.

[FABombjoy]

Yeah, I was being a bit generic in my reply. In this specific case it sounds like a character ROM problem.

[jb143]

Even so...data corrution will likely lead to random results. The only thing I've ever seen resembling what you describe had to do with making bad contact.

[God-Zilla]

If you haven't noticed problems with your Thayer's Quest disc to date, it probably is not one that is prone to laser rot. A significant percentage of them are unfortunately. I have collected laserdiscs since the mid-80s and out of about 1,000 including many check and test discs and prototypes, I have only noticed a rot issue with my Discovision discs and a couple of 90s Pioneer discs which have known problems per other collectors. My storage routine is basically the same as Natty although our house is pretty tightly climate controlled at 70 degrees year round and living in California, we don't have extremes of heat or moisture most of the year.

do you know if I can check my thayers quest disc with a regular LD player or will it only play in a halcyon (as I don't have one...)

[Bojay1997]

do you know if I can check my thayers quest disc with a regular LD player or will it only play in a halcyon (as I don't have one...)

It's just a standard laserdisc and it plays in any player. In fact, the laserdisc player that is part of the Halcyon is just a stock Pioneer LD-700 with different logos attached.

[God-Zilla]

cool! I'll give it a check...