Super Mario All-Stars Question?

[tentencanidae]

So I have the originals.

Clearly the best.

However, I also have SM All-Stars for SNES, which is great. Over the years, I've never noticed any differences besides graphical updates.

Here's my issue.

I just bought the new release of it for the Wii. Has anyone else noticed that the mechanics for Super Mario Bros. is not the same at all? At first, I thought I just needed to get used to seeing it on my LCD rather than an old Tube TV.. but it's not that at all.

There is a very obvious difference in Mario's step. For instance. When you jump with him, and hold forward, to jump forward.. Something is different. It's more difficult to land in the planned locations. Not that it's actually more difficult.. but when you're used to playing a game for over 20 years, changing the arc of his jump, or the distance he covers in a forward jump throws a wrench in the gears.

We can debate this all day, or try to debunk it based off of the TV used, or the WiiMote's delay time, being that it isn't wired. But I have the Virtual Console version, and it's perfect. Same as the original.

Here's the final test situation that made it 100% clear to me that the mechanics changed. The best description I can make is that it makes Mario feel heavier. More weighty. In stage 1-1, get to the bricks that have three on the bottom and one above the center one with the fireflower in it. It was a simple task to jump under the top brick, hit it, release the fireflower, and then jump up and slightly to the side of that brick from underneath, while pressing the direction of the flower to sort of back jump up onto that same brick. It's a classic, very well known and used method in MANY Mario games.

Notice anything? It doesn't really work. Well... it does, but it's a mega-pain in the ass. It left a bad taste in my mouth, and bothers me for some reason.

Has anyone else picked up on this yet? Is my copy defective? Maybe I'm just losing my mind. But I can't imagine why Nintendo would ever change something like this.

[chrisbid]

since the game is basically a rom on a disc, it is likely an emulation or wireless issue

[Alucard79]

I know exactly what you mean. I bought the Super Mario Bros game for Wii and found the jumping to be way off from the norm. I thought it was just me and the fact I haven't played mario in awhile, so I fired up the NES and blazed right through the first few levels with no jumping/timing issues at all. I actually disliked the controls so much, that I haven't went back to play it again.

[tentencanidae]

I know exactly what you mean. I bought the Super Mario Bros game for Wii and found the jumping to be way off from the norm. I thought it was just me and the fact I haven't played mario in awhile, so I fired up the NES and blazed right through the first few levels with no jumping/timing issues at all. I actually disliked the controls so much, that I haven't went back to play it again.

EXACTLY!

I love the case and artwork. I needed to own it regardless... but they really screwed it up.

[buzz_n64]

I've noticed the physics to be different too, and the top info/health bar seems to flicker.

[tentencanidae]

I've noticed the physics to be different too, and the top info/health bar seems to flicker.

You're 100% right! Mine does too. I didn't think to mention that. It doesn't bother me as much as the mechanics though.

[buzz_n64]

You're 100% right! Mine does too. I didn't think to mention that. It doesn't bother me as much as the mechanics though.

So, I'm now going to assume it might be a frame-rate or refresh-rate issue due to poor emulation.

[Leo_A]

The Super Mario Bros. version on Super Mario All-Stars felt very different physics wise in 1993 compared to the NES original.

Comparing it to the NES release on the Virtual Console doesn't prove or indicate a thing. You'd have to compare it to the original SuperNes release.

That said, it does seem to have a different feel compared to what I remember. But I never cared for the update for SMB and have just played the NES original in recent years, which might explain why I think it feels so different compared to what I remember.

[buzz_n64]

The Super Mario Bros. version on Super Mario All-Stars felt very different physics wise in 1993 compared to the NES original.

Comparing it to the NES release on the Virtual Console doesn't prove or indicate a thing. You'd have to compare it to the original SuperNes release.

That said, it does seem to have a different feel compared to what I remember. But I never cared for the update for SMB and have just played the NES original in recent years, which might explain why I think it feels so different compared to what I remember.

I was referring to the SNES version, and I was playing mostly SMB2, and there was a distinct difference. I have ordered an adapter to use NES/SNES/GEN/N64 pads, and I'll have my final verdict in then.

[jb143]

Didn't someone post a side by side video of the originals to the SNES version (2 systems wired into the same controller setup) not too long ago that showed that there were timing differences between the 2?

[Leo_A]

I was talking to tentencanidae and Alucard79. The physics in the NES original and those in the Super Mario All-Stars version are quite a bit different, so you can't really base anything in this Wii release by comparing it with the NES original.

So the fact that this Wii rerelease feels different to the NES original doesn't necessarily indicate that anything is up. I think we'd have to compare it with the SuperNes release on real hardware to really detirmine anything.

Still, it certainly feels different to how I remember SMB feeling in the SuperNes game. Going to have to give that a try later and see.

[jperryss]

If they did manage to screw up the physics, it's BOGGLING that it got out the door considering how much of a total ripoff it already is. Basically a straight dump of a SNES cart and they couldn't even make it the one with SMW on it?

The disc image is a measly 13MB. Obviously that doesn't tell the whole story but why not make it worth the $30? Add SMW, Yoshi's Island, and Mario64, instead of being lazy and just cashing in. It could've been a VC download for $10 and they'd still be making a killing.

Pathetic, Nintendo. Pathetic.

[pseudonym]

True, but it's a "limited edition". That makes it okay. :-D I think it's a wasted opportunity, Nintendo could have done a lot more with it, like including other landmark Mario games like SMW, Yoshi's Island, Mario 64 for a start, but didn't.

[Leo_A]

i don't think anyone has really detirmined if anything is actually wrong. I just think it's been a while since many of us played the All-Stars version of Super Mario Brothers and we've forgotten how it controlled. At least that's my suspicion on why it seems a bit off to me.

SMB2 and SMB3 certainly feel fine. But they pretty much controlled identically to their NES versions in the original All-Stars release (I've regularly been playing SMB2 and 3 on the SuperNes cartridge for many years along with the original NES versions). Why would they now still feel fine in this rerelease (To me at least) while SMB doesn't (I haven't gotten into the Lost Levels yet)?

I'm writing off my experience for now as expecting it to feel like the NES game in my head since that's all I've played for SMB in many years due to my preference for the original. The original release in 1993 felt very different to me as best as I can remember (Which combined with the huge differences in graphics, pretty much turned me off on the remake of it). I imagine when I fire up the SuperNes and spend some time with the original cartridge, SMB will feel the same to me as it does in this Wii game.


True, but it's a "limited edition". That makes it okay. :-D I think it's a wasted opportunity, Nintendo could have done a lot more with it, like including other landmark Mario games like SMW, Yoshi's Island, Mario 64 for a start, but didn't.

Yeah, they really should be bundling many of their classics into a bargain compilation irregardless if they're able to sell them individually at a much higher price on the Virtual Console.

[RPG_Fanatic]

Anyone still finding Mario All-Stars in stores?

[jb143]

This is more of a thought that just occurred to me than anything...but I would imagine that the SNES SMB All Stars is using the SMW engine with level data from the original games. That would be so much easier than doing a rewrite on them and I'm pretty sure that the SNES isn't doing emulation. There wouldn't be too many changes to made other than updating the graphics...and adding in SM2 game mechanics.

For the Wii version(which I have not played). Are they emulating the original game? Or did they write it from the ground up. Because if they we wrote it then they probably used modern physics approaches.

For example, the old way (in simplistic C pseudo code) would be like this..
Jump()
{
if (mario.y < jumpheight) mario.y--;
else mario.y--;
}

In a modern game(even 2D) it would simply be...
Jump()
{
mario.ApplyForce.up;
}

The physics engine would take care of the rest.

[jperryss]

This is more of a thought that just occurred to me than anything...

The Wii version is an exact dump from All-Stars for the SNES. Title screen, game select, graphics, etc. are identical. If you'd never heard of it and someone told you it was a VC release of All-Stars, you'd believe it. And the physics on the All-Stars version were damn close to the original (at least on 1, I never played the original 1J) and not very close to SMW.

The SNES wasn't emulating the NES, of course, since the graphics were completely re-done in 16-bit form. I suspect the original level data was used (or copy/pasted, whatever) but everything else was re-written. Nintendo wasn't quite as lazy as they are now. :D

I know what you're thinking, but I don't think it's possible.

I have a friend that has the new one, and I have the original NES carts (all except 2J) and also All-Stars for the SNES. Maybe I can invite him over and we'll do a comparo. Still won't change the fact that releasing this as a $30 game was dickish and a wasted opportunity.

[allyourblood]

I played mine tonight, and after about 40 minutes, I didn't notice anything different from the SNES version, other than using a different controller.

[Leo_A]

I just spent about two hours going between the SuperNes and the Wii game. I didn't notice any differences.

I still don't care for the Super Mario Brothers update. I love what they did with SMB2 and SMB3, though.

[retroman]

why would you buy a game when you already own the originals and the snes allstars? waste of money.

[buzz_n64]

why would you buy a game when you already own the originals and the snes allstars? waste of money.

I guess you're looking at it from a players perspective, not at a collector's stand point.

[jb143]

The SNES wasn't emulating the NES, of course, since the graphics were completely re-done in 16-bit form. I suspect the original level data was used (or copy/pasted, whatever) but everything else was re-written. Nintendo wasn't quite as lazy as they are now. :D


Which is why I suggested maybe they used the SMW engine. I haven't looked into it at all...it just seemed Nintendo-e to do(as you said...lazy). I wasn't aware the new one was the exact same as the SNES. I thought maybe it was New Super Mario style.

[pseudonym]

i don't think anyone has really detirmined if anything is actually wrong. I just think it's been a while since many of us played the All-Stars version of Super Mario Brothers and we've forgotten how it controlled. At least that's my suspicion on why it seems a bit off to me.

SMB2 and SMB3 certainly feel fine. But they pretty much controlled identically to their NES versions in the original All-Stars release (I've regularly been playing SMB2 and 3 on the SuperNes cartridge for many years along with the original NES versions). Why would they now still feel fine in this rerelease (To me at least) while SMB doesn't (I haven't gotten into the Lost Levels yet)?

I'm writing off my experience for now as expecting it to feel like the NES game in my head since that's all I've played for SMB in many years due to my preference for the original. The original release in 1993 felt very different to me as best as I can remember (Which combined with the huge differences in graphics, pretty much turned me off on the remake of it). I imagine when I fire up the SuperNes and spend some time with the original cartridge, SMB will feel the same to me as it does in this Wii game.



Yeah, they really should be bundling many of their classics into a bargain compilation irregardless if they're able to sell them individually at a much higher price on the Virtual Console.

Irregardless isn't a word. ROFLj/k

I'm not against the package per se, I just wish there was more "meat" to it. I really think they could have done a lot better.

[Leo_A]

Irregardless isn't a word. ROFLj/k

I actually never knew that. Looks like there has been a debate going on for over 100 years on the appropriateness of that word.


I'm not against the package per se, I just wish there was more "meat" to it. I really think they could have done a lot better.

Of course it could've been done a lot better. Nintendo had almost endless possibilities and a large amount of content to select from for such a anniversary celebration and ended up going with a pretty skimpy release in the end. But I prefer to just look at it as a physical extension of the Virtual Console program that was simply tied into the anniversary for marketing purposes. Seems to make sense and be more reasonable when you look at it that way.

[theclaw]

It's more a shame the Wii d-pads aren't viewed by gamers in the way things like U-Force and Sega Activator are.

[Jorpho]

Yes, it is confirmed that SMB1 and The Lost Levels in All-Stars has a bug. There's a patch to fix it, though of course that would be tricky to use on real hardware.

The fact that they didn't even bother fixing this little thing for the Wii re-release shows just how lackluster said release is, I'd say.


when Super Mario smashes a brick, he doesn’t rebound properly. In fact, if he hits a brick at the peak of his jump, he’ll actually be pulled upwards into the brick! (I find this kind of odd, since the games are just heavily modified versions of the original NES code, for the most part.)

Anyway, I got bored the other night, and decided to track down the problem and fix it once and for all. It was actually much easier than I thought, just a case of reversed Y velocity…silly Nintendo.

These patches will correct the brick behavior in both SMB and Lost Levels, and also add the missing “thump” noise.

http://www.romhacking.net/hacks/167/

[Leo_A]

There are several different revisions of the original run of the game along with two later rereleases (The one that added SMW and the late 90's Player's Choice rerelease). Was never fixed then, either.

It's not the only way the physics in SMB1 and SMB2J were tinkered with. So I imagine it was intentional, for some odd reason.

[Leo_A]

I just realized the save state feature of their SuperNes emulator isn't present. It's a minor point given the save system already present in the game, but I don't see why it wasn't left in.

I've came to really appreciate that in Virtual Console games.

[Seaquest]

Well, I guess mario has just gained a bit of weight since 85.:D

[Jorpho]

It's not the only way the physics in SMB1 and SMB2J were tinkered with.I was not previously aware of that and would like to know more. Would you please be so kind as to provide some examples?

I am familiar with the documentation at http://themushroomkingdom.net/smb_nes2smas.shtml and http://themushroomkingdom.net/bugs/smb , if that's what you mean.

[Leo_A]

It's hard to put it into words, but the physics when Mario jumps in the All-Stars version of SMB and SMB2J, how momentum is handled, and the already well known change when he breaks a block always gave those two games a very different feel to me when I was playing.

SMB2 and SMB3 on the other hand seemed to control identically to the NES originals to me on the SuperNes and the Wii.

Edit - You can get a real sense of just how different they are from this video. Things get out of sync very quickly (Although he keeps re-syncing every chance he gets by running into blocks or pipes to let the other game catch up, which defeats the purpose of the experiment).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hGdKkf12_Lc

[Gentlegamer]

Irregardless isn't a word.
It's a perfectly cromulent word.

[jb143]

It's a perfectly cromulent word.

All they need is more usage to embiggen their role in the English language.

[LocalH]

The SNES wasn't emulating the NES, of course, since the graphics were completely re-done in 16-bit form. I suspect the original level data was used (or copy/pasted, whatever) but everything else was re-written. Nintendo wasn't quite as lazy as they are now. :D
The SMAS versions of the games were more or less ported directly (with the exception of the SMB1 brick-breaking change/bug/whatever) based on the original source code. So much so, in fact, that pretty much all of the unused content from SMB3 (http://tcrf.net/Super_Mario_All-Stars#Super_Mario_Bros._3_2) is still present in SMAS (and on an unrelated note, SMA4 as well), with much of it even benefiting from the upgrade in graphics (http://tcrf.net/Super_Mario_All-Stars/Unused_Graphics) (but several unused graphics were left in the original NES format).

[jperryss]

The SMAS versions of the games were more or less ported directly (with the exception of the SMB1 brick-breaking change/bug/whatever) based on the original source code. So much so, in fact, that pretty much all of the unused content from SMB3 (http://tcrf.net/Super_Mario_All-Stars#Super_Mario_Bros._3_2) is still present in SMAS (and on an unrelated note, SMA4 as well), with much of it even benefiting from the upgrade in graphics (http://tcrf.net/Super_Mario_All-Stars/Unused_Graphics) (but several unused graphics were left in the original NES format).

Very interesting stuff, thanks for the link.

[ConsoleAddict]

I'm surprised they would tinker with the physics and think nobody would notice. Somebody always will notice if something is amiss.

I've seen people try and sell their copies of this game online for three or four times the original price. I guess they are hoping there are desperate people out there who want this.

[allyourblood]

I've seen people try and sell their copies of this game online for three or four times the original price. I guess they are hoping there are desperate people out there who want this.

And unsurprisingly, they're right. Most are going for about $70US right now, but several copies have sold for $90 and up! Crazy.

[Jorpho]

The SMAS versions of the games were more or less ported directly (with the exception of the SMB1 brick-breaking change/bug/whatever) based on the original source code. So much so, in fact, that pretty much all of the unused content from SMB3 (http://tcrf.net/Super_Mario_All-Stars#Super_Mario_Bros._3_2) is still present in SMAS (and on an unrelated note, SMA4 as well), with much of it even benefiting from the upgrade in graphics (http://tcrf.net/Super_Mario_All-Stars/Unused_Graphics) (but several unused graphics were left in the original NES format).Yes, that's why I thought other claims to changed physics seemed kind of odd. The SMB3 debug menu (http://themushroomkingdom.net/smb3_lost.shtml) was preserved as well.

Not that I'm ruling out the possibility or anything - the brick-breaking thing is bizarre enough; there could very well be more subtle changes buried within.

[Enigmus]

Yes, that's why I thought other claims to changed physics seemed kind of odd. The SMB3 debug menu (http://themushroomkingdom.net/smb3_lost.shtml) was preserved as well.

Not that I'm ruling out the possibility or anything - the brick-breaking thing is bizarre enough; there could very well be more subtle changes buried within.

The SMB overworld theme uses a different note structure and syncopation than the NES SMB. Koji Kondo's even memorized the newer one to the point where he plays the 1993 SMAS remake before restarting with the 1985 theme. Thought I'd point that out.

[Leo_A]

There are certainly differences or that comparison video with the controller tied into both systems would be much closer. But even without hitting blocks where we know that there was a significant and obvious change to the physics, they easily get out of sync in that experiment.

[Satoshi_Matrix]

Indeed. It is the difference in the Mario physics that turned me off from the original all-stars seventeen years ago. The original game just has a level of perfection not even nintendo seems to have been able to duplicate.