What the hell is wrong with the Canadian post office? (ignore if you hate long posts)

[ryborg]

Seriously. I need to know. Almost everything I've sent there over the last few months has arrived either incredibly damaged, massively late, or most importantly, not at all. It's moved beyond a coincidental fluke to something substantially wrong with the system.

About 15% of my ebay business goes overseas. Anyone who's read my posts here knows I think it's good for business to sell anywhere, anytime. However, I am seriously considering outright banning Canada for a while. I had a perfect holiday season everywhere else in the world (even Italy and Mexico!), but about 7-8 packages just never arrived to Canada, leading to constant refunds and several negative feedbacks, even though I did all I could to help the buyers. I've been shipping from three different post office locations, so it's not like someone in "the back" is stealing my Canadian packages, which is a pretty paranoid way of thinking anyway.

This week alone, I received two negs from western Canada for non-receipt. I first asked for patience, that mail to Canada has been slow recently (especially during the holidays), and they act like I called their sisters a bunch of sloppy whores. God forbid you insult the infallible Canada Post! Both buyers actually refused refunds and apologies for the inconveniences because I said the fault lies with their countries' mail delivery service. They'd rather neg and get nothing (if you think a refund offer is still on the table after a neg, you're nuts).

An email: "Do NOT say it takes long because it's international. I've sent and received stuff to/from US - it NEVER takes a month - it arrives within a week if not 2. Even items from Asia don't take a month. It wasn't even holiday season back when I purchased it."

Ignoring the fact he considers the second week of December to not be part of the holiday season, it's a dumb email. Even the packages that do make it into the buyer's hands take no less than 10-14 days. This is not just my experience; other sellers I know experience the same results. Three to four weeks is in no way unusual, but according to this buyer, it's never happened in the history of Canada. Thanks anyway, guy with 60 feedback!

Later, his neg: "Item NEVER received. Blames on the postal service. Irresponsible. Do NOT trust."

Really now, what more can I possibly do once I drop the package off at the PO? Of course I'm blaming the Canadian post office. The address is written 100% legibly and the customs form is always on the front or top and is filled out correctly. If there's no item 30-35 days after the mailing date, I'll send a refund. Wow, that's pretty irresponsible. (I realize I'm being snarky now, but my emails are actually professional to the buyers, so don't think my 'tude is causing the bad feedback)

So, I have three choices right now (aside from doing nothing and hoping it's all a giant, expensive fluke):

1) Continue to ship to Canada, jack up shipping ~30%, and give a refund at the earliest possible moment to any Canadian who complains, even if it's hours later. I will not speak ill of Canada Post because Canada Post is perfect and asking for patience will only make the buyer angry, and I won't like him when he's angry.

2) Continue to ship to Canada, jack up shipping to Priority/Express Mail costs. This is a HUGE price increase, since I mostly sell items that are under a pound, meaning the shipping price will likely more than double. Unless it fits in a Flat Rate envelope/box (less than half do, since I sell a lot of 5950 hats which go in a custom box), this'll cost, bare minimum (no handling fees), $21. Not appealing when most items I sell go for about $10-20. I'll have a tracking number, which is good, but Priority items to Canada have gone missing before.

3) Ban Canada outright from future sales. Will definitely hurt business, but will have a nice catharsis effect. Will probably lead to a giant flashing text box in all listings taunting Canada while thanking them for all the negs and refunds, which will probably hurt business more.

I'm leaning towards #1, but 2 or 3 might happen too.

Comments, suggestions, similar recent horror stories to share?

[Richter Belmount]

The mounties deliver the mail

[ryborg]

The mounties deliver the mail

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_m42tZ2juZNg/SkqrSyOv8yI/AAAAAAAADaI/otqF_zzDuSk/s400/Mountie+ralph.jpg

[Ponyponypony]

Maybe try a fourth option, in the interim while you're making a decision. I've not done a lot of selling on ebay, but I do a fair amount of buys, and my fiancee is always shipping out art stuff.

What about putting a giant flashing disclaimer warning potential canadian buyers that you've had issues with either the US or Canadian postal system, and give them notice that you'll refund in full if they have issues?

I know it's a ridiculously sensitive issue - when I buy something, the first thing I look at it is the shipping, so if it's a little higher then I go somewhere else. Personally, out of those three options, I would lean more towards #1. Though #3 does sound really cathartic.

Also look at the percentage of business (I saw the 15% overseas) is going to Canada, then look at how much revenue you're generating from sales to Canada compared to everywhere else, and if you can handle losing that.

That's a really crappy situation to be in, and I hope you figure out a solution at some point in the future.

[ryborg]

What about putting a giant flashing disclaimer warning potential canadian buyers that you've had issues with either the US or Canadian postal system, and give them notice that you'll refund in full if they have issues?

Actually, I have done something very similar in recent listings. It's not exactly a huge flashing box, but it's bright orange text in my item description. I think it's one of those things that works better on paper than in reality. Your problem customers generally aren't the ones who read and comprehend.


Also look at the percentage of business (I saw the 15% overseas) is going to Canada, then look at how much revenue you're generating from sales to Canada compared to everywhere else, and if you can handle losing that.

I'd say about half of my international sales go to Canada, so figure around 7% total. Realistically, as much as I really want to, I'm probably not going to outright ban Canada, mostly because I sell a lot of Canadian team sports gear. If I ban them, who is going to buy all of my Maple Leafs stuff??

[badinsults]

I haven't done a lot of Ebay buying, but I know that sometimes things get caught up in customs and can take three or four weeks. Usually, it isn't even the postal system, but a choke point at customs. And it seems pretty arbitrary when they inspect things.

But yeah, I would lay part of the blame on Canada Post as well. They have jacked up shipping rates, while their service gets more and more terrible. Did you know it is literally cheaper to ship things to anywhere in the United States than within Canada? The federal government has made it a policy to ignore crown corporations out of principle, which has led to decreasing service. Seriously, it costs $10-$15 just to send a small package with a couple of games in it within Canada.

[ryborg]

Seriously, it costs $10-$15 just to send a small package with a couple of games in it within Canada.

Exactly why I don't simply cross the border to mail Canadian items. I live in Buffalo, NY and I can be on Canadian soil in 10 minutes by car and 30 by bike.

[gum_drops]

I completely stopped shipping outside the USA. I would rather lose out on international sales than deal with it. I may be losing some money but the stress isn't worth it.

I still ship internationally on trading boards, but never via airmail.

That sucks about the negatives, did the buyers have low feedback? Remember that short time span on ebay where you could report a non paying bidder and if they didnt respond you could slap them with a negative with no retaliation possible, ah the good ol days.

[megasdkirby]

Remember that short time span on ebay where you could report a non paying bidder and if they didnt respond you could slap them with a negative with no retaliation possible, ah the good ol days.

I think you can still do that, but under an automatic type service. The name escapes me, though.

I would not ban Canada, but I understand why you feel this way ryborg. Question: from the total amount of packages sent and those that did not arrive (from your post and checking your feedback, that was two and a neutral from Australia?) what is the percentage of successful transactions? If it's at least 90-95%, I think that would be great overall.

Also, I think buyers were like that because of the holiday season: they were a bit more desperate than on other times of the year. I'm sure that they might be a little more understanding if it was purchased NOT during the Xmas season.

[c0ldb33r]

The Canadians you were dealing with are morons.

I know that when I buy something from the USA, it will take about a month to get here. Not always, but that's the timeline I always keep in my head. Most Canadians who've made multiple purchases are keenly aware of this.

What's interesting is that it's really only USA parcels that are slow. Parcels from Europe or Asia are substantially faster. I blame the people working at the USA/Canada borders.

As for your policy, just have a big disclaimer saying you won't deal with morons. If you're a moron please don't bid. Or only deal with Canadians from online boards and not the bay.

[maxlords]

What c0ldb33r says.....you're just getting the worst of the worst on eBay is all. Most sane people here in Canada know that our postal system is SUPER slow and expect stuff to take an average of 2 solid weeks to get here from the states, regardless of the shipping method. And it's TOTALLY random. I'll have packages take a week, then a month or more.

[joedick]

Canada Post can be brutally slow in December. I bet those people ended up getting their items.

[Zing]

The only problems I have had with Canada Post since moving to Canada eight years ago and having many, many packages sent to me were due to incompetence on the part of the local mail carrier. The service itself has been fine.

Based on the comments you were given by your buyers, I think you just had dicks for buyers. I have had my share as well. People who file non-receipt way too early. People who scammed me since I didn't use a tracking number.

I'm willing to bet that the packages in question either had already arrived and the buyer was just scamming, or they arrived shortly after they filed their claims.

[c0ldb33r]

The only problems I have had with Canada Post since moving to Canada eight years ago and having many, many packages sent to me were due to incompetence on the part of the local mail carrier. The service itself has been fine.

Yeah Canada Post itself isn't that bad. It's the local carriers. They're typical government "I'll get to it when I get to it" employees.

But for the system itself, it's bound to be slower than USPS since our land mass is substantially larger with 10% of the population. The economies of scale can't kick in. We can't really compare Canada Post to USPS.

edit: BTW, why is this is Buying and Selling? Shouldn't it be in the Off-Topic forum, or at the very least Everything Auctions?

[Kitsune Sniper]

I don't ship to Canada on eBay anymore. They made up about a third of my business. Now I don't even bother.

[gum_drops]

As for your policy, just have a big disclaimer saying you won't deal with morons. If you're a moron please don't bid. Or only deal with Canadians from online boards and not the bay.

Unfortunately, by default most morons don't read auction descriptions. They also do not realize they are morons, hence stuck in a continual state of moronity.

[ryborg]

Thanks for the replies, everyone. I've read and considered them all. Making matters shittier, just a few hours ago, I got a colossally stupid neutral from another mongoloid (an American this time, for a change of pace). That makes two negs and two neutrals over the last 10 days, none of which were my fault. WEAK.

He bought a $40 McFarlane figure and said it arrived damaged to the point of worthlessness. I found that highly dubious, since I ship those extremely securely, and told him to mail it back for a refund, knowing I can easily sell it again, perhaps for more. It arrived back in the exact, mint condition I sent it in. Amazing.


Yeah Canada Post itself isn't that bad. It's the local carriers. They're typical government "I'll get to it when I get to it" employees.

But then why is the USPS so excellent? Aren't they also government workers? I honestly have zero complaints with them overall. There has to be more to the story.


I don't ship to Canada on eBay anymore. They made up about a third of my business. Now I don't even bother.

Wow, really? A third? That's a ton! Didn't your numbers go down a lot once you laid down the banhammer on the country? That's what I'm afraid of.


Unfortunately, by default most morons don't read auction descriptions. They also do not realize they are morons, hence stuck in a continual state of moronity.

This.

[nebrazca78]

If you want to continue shipping to Canada with full protection you'll have to send via Priority Mail International. Much better than cutting Canada off completely IMO. Unfortunately for sending something small the cost can not only double but easily get to 5X. Also keep in mind that using a Priority Mail flat rate box under 4 lbs. does not have tracking as far as I know, it's kind of a hybrid between First Class and Priority. The USPS needs to get tracking for First Class but that is unlikely because most foreign postal systems are not set up for tracking. It seems the extra money you pay for Priority Mail goes mostly for tracking and the mandatory insurance more than the speed. At the very least they could offer cheaper Priority prices for smaller items. Right now it costs the same to send something that weighs 1 oz. as it does to send something that costs 1 lb. via Priority.

[ryborg]

Also keep in mind that using a Priority Mail flat rate box under 4 lbs. does not have tracking as far as I know, it's kind of a hybrid between First Class and Priority.

What? If you print the labels at home, there is tracking on ALL Priority/Express International.


It seems the extra money you pay for Priority Mail goes mostly for tracking and the mandatory insurance more than the speed. Insurance is neither mandatory nor included for Priority. http://pe.usps.com/text/Imm/ce_003.htm#ep2041503

[c0ldb33r]

But then why is the USPS so excellent? Aren't they also government workers? I honestly have zero complaints with them overall. There has to be more to the story.
Good point. I should have said that I have no specific reason to blame the corporation itself. I know that my former mailman was a moron and screwed up some of my mail. I'm sure the corporation is full of morons, but I have no real evidence.

[Kitsune Sniper]

Wow, really? A third? That's a ton! Didn't your numbers go down a lot once you laid down the banhammer on the country? That's what I'm afraid of.

My numbers? No, what went down was my income. I think Canada is fine, but I don't want to deal with asshole postmen.

It's not worth it.

ETA: Also, ryborg, report the moron that left you a neutral. Go to your eBay page, there should be a link to report him for feedback extortion or similar.

[Cornelius]

But then why is the USPS so excellent? Aren't they also government workers? I honestly have zero complaints with them overall. There has to be more to the story.

Well, my understanding is that the USPS isn't a government organization the way we'd normally think of one. It is sort of a hybrid business/agency, and they are supposed to break even. They've actually been loosing lots of money lately, I think, so maybe the service should be worse (or prices higher). I know that my carrier changed recently because they had to get rid of some people, so the routes got larger and changed. Sucks, because we used to be the 2nd house on the route and she was really nice.


What? If you print the labels at home, there is tracking on ALL Priority/Express International.

Insurance is neither mandatory nor included for Priority. http://pe.usps.com/text/Imm/ce_003.htm#ep2041503
Look again! There is no tracking on International Priority Small FRBs or FREnvelopes.

Isn't there some sort of Indemnity on Priority? I don't know what that means, though, and maybe it is only Express.

[The 1 2 P]

2) Continue to ship to Canada, jack up shipping to Priority/Express Mail costs. This is a HUGE price increase, since I mostly sell items that are under a pound, meaning the shipping price will likely more than double. Unless it fits in a Flat Rate envelope/box (less than half do, since I sell a lot of 5950 hats which go in a custom box), this'll cost, bare minimum (no handling fees), $21. Not appealing when most items I sell go for about $10-20. I'll have a tracking number, which is good, but Priority items to Canada have gone missing before.

Me and you have discussed this before and I still stand by it. While it's true that I could send a cart only N64 game up to Canada for around $5 shipping, I would also be at the mercy of the impatient buyer saying that game never arrives. Thats why I'd rather charge the $12 priority mail international for that same cart and have the reassurance of a tracking number.

20-30% of my buyers are international ones from all over the world and I have it clearly stated in every auction that international buyers must pay a shipping charge that includes a tracking number. I strongly suggest you should start doing this as well. It provides alot more peace of mind. As for your missing priority packages to Canada, I was under the impression that once you show paypal/ebay your tracking number that you are no longer required to give a refund and that paypal/ebay themselves would have to give it because you provided proof that you did indeed ship the item. Has that policy changed?


Canada Post can be brutally slow in December. I bet those people ended up getting their items.

And I'm sure they did too. Ryborg already knows this but I dealt with something similiar last year when a Canadian buyer told me that his package never arrived after a month during holiday 2009. His package eventually arrived but he never told me. I found out when I saw the items relisted on ebay under another screen name(he changed his for this very reason). I opened up a case on ebay/paypal against him and won. But the point is, although they may have taken awhile to get there the games eventually arrived and I'm sure that all the games Ryborg sent arrived as well. Unfortunately the buyers didn't have enough common sense to realize that patience is a virtue when dealing with shipping items to Canada.

[ryborg]

Me and you have discussed this before and I still stand by it. While it's true that I could send a cart only N64 game up to Canada for around $5 shipping, I would also be at the mercy of the impatient buyer saying that game never arrives. Thats why I'd rather charge the $12 priority mail international for that same cart and have the reassurance of a tracking number.

Yeah, I sell a lot of light stuff (usually shirts/hats 8 oz or less) so it costs ~$3 to ship to Canada. I know people don't like hearing about it, but I do charge a decent sized handling fee because I dread filling out customs forms. I would never charge "only" $12 for Priority shipping with that in mind. Also, remember, it's only $12 if it fits in a flat rate envelope or small box. Otherwise it's no less than $20, which is insane.


...I have it clearly stated in every auction that international buyers must pay a shipping charge that includes a tracking number. I strongly suggest you should start doing this as well. It provides alot more peace of mind. I've started doing this for more expensive items, but I'll still keep shipping First Class for cheaper items while jacking up the price a bit. Honestly, I don't care about "peace of mind." All that matters to me is selling the greatest number of items while avoiding any potential negs, when possible. I neglected to mention in earlier posts in this thread that I have a friend who sells similar items to mine. However, he requires Priority shipping on everything, but sells FAR fewer items than me overall, and it has to be the shipping price overseas.


As for your missing priority packages to Canada, I was under the impression that once you show paypal/ebay your tracking number that you are no longer required to give a refund and that paypal/ebay themselves would have to give it because you provided proof that you did indeed ship the item. Has that policy changed? Haha I wish. This has never been the case. You have to show proof of the item being delivered, NOT proof of shipment. A postmarked customs form is proof of shipment and good luck using that as evidence for anything.


But the point is, although they may have taken awhile to get there the games eventually arrived and I'm sure that all the games Ryborg sent arrived as well.I don't doubt this is true. Otherwise the packages would be returned to me eventually, which has NEVER happened. I make sure to write large and legible, so if this is not true, the carriers either have to be insanely incompetent or they're just stealing them.

[pseudonym]

Most Canadians know that Canada Post sucks, shame that you got an impatient and/or stupid one. Customs can hold packages crossing the border for 2 weeks to a month or more often too.

[ryborg]

Most Canadians know that Canada Post sucks, shame that you got an impatient and/or stupid one.

Not one, singular. Plural. Many plurals. Like damn near every Canadian I've sold to recently, which is a lot. It's like the entire nation decided to screw me over for a few months.

[badinsults]

The level of insolence in the country has risen in the past 5 years (gee, what happened exactly five years ago, look it up). There is a reason why I am happy to see how things are outside of the country for a while.

[The 1 2 P]

Haha I wish. This has never been the case. You have to show proof of the item being delivered, NOT proof of shipment. A postmarked customs form is proof of shipment and good luck using that as evidence for anything.

I'm talking about tracking numbers and those do list when the item arrives: the day, time and location. So it shows that the item arrived at the address that you sent it to. And that was what I meant about that policy, that as long as you can prove that the item arrived then paypal/ebay shouldn't be able to require you to make the refund out of your account.

This has always been the way they dealt with tracking numbers. However, I know that they have changed several things about their overall policies within the last 2+ years(like feedback). But personally I haven't had any problems with any local or international items I've shipped out with tracking numbers. I think it would be unlawful if they told you that even though you have a tracking number that proves your item arrived you still need to give a refund because the buyer says they never got it.

[megasdkirby]

And that was what I meant about that policy, that as long as you can prove that the item arrived then paypal/ebay shouldn't be able to require you to make the refund out of your account.



The only issue I have with USPS tracking numbers is that it only states that it was delivered to a certain Municipality, State, Zip Code, and the time. Not ONCE does it state that it was delivered to the correct house.

In the other house I lived in (around 10 years ago), the mail person would deliver the packages to the wrong house and scan them as delivered. Fortunately, the neighbors were nice and would give me the packages, but this was a constant worry. In a bind, I would automatically loose a claim because the status reflected as though it was "delivered" when it really wasn't.

It's rare, and can be ignored for the most part, but it's still something that bothers me to this day.

[The 1 2 P]

The only issue I have with USPS tracking numbers is that it only states that it was delivered to a certain Municipality, State, Zip Code, and the time. Not ONCE does it state that it was delivered to the correct house.

Thats a good point. I never even thought about that but I don't think it does show the street address. And that makes me wonder even more about that policy--if someone challenges it and you show proof of delivery what happens next? Because once the postal worker scans it in as delivered theres not much else you(the seller) can do.

[ryborg]

I'm talking about tracking numbers and those do list when the item arrives: the day, time and location. So it shows that the item arrived at the address that you sent it to. And that was what I meant about that policy, that as long as you can prove that the item arrived then paypal/ebay shouldn't be able to require you to make the refund out of your account.

OK, but that was never my problem. The tracking would simply stop once the item arrived in Canada and that was that. No tracking, no delivery, no nothing.

[maxlords]

But it doesn't stop. If you input the US tracking number into www.canadapost.ca it gives you the Canadian tracking number and tracking continues :)

[ryborg]

But it doesn't stop. If you input the US tracking number into www.canadapost.ca (http://www.canadapost.ca) it gives you the Canadian tracking number and tracking continues :)

Yes, I know that. That doesn't change what I'm saying. It would go as far as "released from customs" or whatever and then just end, with no future updates.

[MachineGex]

I always run into problems with trying to figure out how much to charge when shipping up North(selling on the forums). Most buyers always say it only costs a few bucks, but it usually ends up being $13-16 for small boxes.

I don't like it when buyers expect you to pay for the extra shipping. I just wish more Canadians would realize shipping is expensive and isn't included in the $10 game they want to buy. I have lost a lot of money(in the past) because I use to take the buyers word on shipping costs. I have yet to ship a complete NES to Canada for $3.

Lately, I have had good luck with Canada.....knock on wood!

[ryborg]

I have yet to ship a complete NES to Canada for $3.

It still shouldn't be more than $5. The average complete NES game is around 6oz, an oversized box is 3oz and packing another 3oz if you go crazy. Even if you round everything up a few ounces to one pound total, First Class shipping is $4.81 as per http://ircalc.usps.gov/MailServices.aspx?country=10054&m=2&p=1&o=0