Remember nintendo's arrogance during nintendo 64's release?

[Gameguy]

Both consoles had dozens of very popular highly rated games, but for people who hate long loading screens, the PlayStation is automatically ruled out.
It does come down to personal preference. I've played Super Mario 64, Goldeneye 007, both Zeldas, plus dozens more and couldn't really get into them. I found Silent Hill for PS1 and enjoy what I've played so far, though I've only played it for under 2 hours total(more than I've played most N64 games). Actually I haven't played that many PS1 games since I've found a console, I have Resident Evil 2 and Metal Gear Solid but haven't touched them yet. I want to find Castlevania SOTN and Skullmonkeys eventually, same with Clock Tower. At least with the Playstation there's actually some games I want to get! I still prefer cartridges because of the load times though.

That being said I still have a complete boxed N64 system with several complete games and a couple of Player's Guides. Perhaps I should think about selling them. LOL

With the N64 I found that to switch between the direction pad and analog stick I had to keep moving my hand, it was kind of annoying that I couldn't control both with my hand in the same place(without awkwardly stretching my hand). I don't have problems switching between them while playing The Suffering on PS2, the layout of Sony's controllers are pretty good overall.

[sheath]

With the N64 analog stick, I could make Mario tip-toe slowly, then tip-toe faster, then walk slowly, then walk faster, then jog, and then run at full speed. That wouldn't have been possible with a digital pad.

I've set up my Saturn gamepad to play Mario 64 in emulation and the entire game is perfectly playable. The same goes for Mario Kart, though I prefer to use my 360 wireless pad for that one. The only thing I can't get to work fully with a digital pad is an FPS like Golden Eye. It's playable, just awkward.



9.5 million Saturn consoles were sold worldwide. 32.9 million N64 consoles were sold worldwide. That means the N64 outsold the Saturn by 3.5 to 1. Also:

Best selling Saturn games = Virtua Fighter 2 (2.2 million) and Sega Rally Championship (1.2 million)

Best selling N64 games = Super Mario 64 (11 million), Mario Kart 64 (9 million), Goldeneye 007 (8 million), Ocarina of Time (7.6 million), Super Smash Bros. (5 million), etc.

That's why the Saturn isn't considered a commercial success, but the N64 is. The Saturn *could* have been more successful, but Sega was very confused and screwed up at the time.

Do you have a source for these figures? I just like to keep that stuff for posterity. I would also argue against the perception that sales figures equates to success of a game console and divert people's attention to the libraries instead (http://www.gamepilgrimage.com/view/browse/notablegames?field_year_value_op=between&field_year_value[value]=1985-2005&field_year_value[min]=1995&field_year_value[max]=2005&field_system_value_op=word&field_system_value=Nintendo+Saturn&title_op=contains&title=).

[RPG_Fanatic]

Are you going to tell me that in the American market the Nintendo 64 had any real competition besides the Playstation 1? No, it didn't. All the other systems you talked about failed miserably. While the N64 did spectacular.


You should have said the Playstation didn't have any REAL competition in the U.S. the N64 sucked face it. Look at the sales figures.

Worldwide sales figures
PlayStation – 102.49 million (Japan: 21.59, US: 40.78, Europe: 40.12)

Nintendo 64 – 32.93 million (Japan: 5.54 million, the Americas: 20.63 million, other: 6.75 million)

[dendawg]

the N64 sucked face it. Look at the sales figures.

Yes...because everybody know sales=quality. :roll:

[nebrazca78]

I guess I'm one of the only people on the planet that found the N64 controller comfortable.

I like it a lot too, except for fighting games. Can't beat the Saturn pad at that though.



9.5 million Saturn consoles were sold worldwide. 32.9 million N64 consoles were sold worldwide. That means the N64 outsold the Saturn by 3.5 to 1.


That seems like such a low number of Saturns to have been sold considering how successful it was in Japan. It sounds wrong that Saturn had well over 50% more games than N64 in its worldwide library (that number is concrete) but sold 70% less systems. Unless people who were buying Saturn just really liked it and were buying many more games per system after all...



Also:

Best selling Saturn games = Virtua Fighter 2 (2.2 million) and Sega Rally Championship (1.2 million)

Best selling N64 games = Super Mario 64 (11 million), Mario Kart 64 (9 million), Goldeneye 007 (8 million), Ocarina of Time (7.6 million), Super Smash Bros. (5 million), etc.


Maybe the N64 library has only a few killer apps and a lot of filler? Really when people talk about good N64 games you usually hear the same names over and over without much deviation. I know back when I was buying Saturn games new my brother and I were rarely disappointed and we had 30+ games.



That's why the Saturn isn't considered a commercial success...

Well it was a commercial success in Japan but not even close in the U.S. or Europe.

.

[jammajup]

I didn't really care, until Goldeneye came out.

Me neither really,sure i played a bit of Turok and Mario 64 they were okay and i never saw Nintendo as arrogant because they had no reason in my eyes as the N64 may of been more powerful but PS1 games played,looked and sounded much better to me.

[Rob2600]

Do you have a source for these figures?

Wikipedia.org


I would also argue against the perception that sales figures equates to success of a game console

Nebrazca78 used the words "commercial success," which is based entirely on sales and public perception. Otherwise, I wouldn't have quoted sales data.


Maybe the N64 library has only a few killer apps and a lot of filler? Really when people talk about good N64 games you usually hear the same names over and over without much deviation.

Actually, based on reviews from 1996 to 2002, the N64 had the best "good game to bad game" ratio out of any game console. One out of five N64 games received an aggregate rating of 8.0 or higher.

[sheath]

You should have said the Playstation didn't have any REAL competition in the U.S. the N64 sucked face it. Look at the sales figures.

(uncited) Worldwide sales figures
...

What shoes are you wearing? I certainly hope you checked the sales figures before you bought them.

[Gavica]

I wouldn't call the N64 spectacular considering that Before that console Nintendo was #1 in the world. And Sony owned them.

[Icarus Moonsight]

Maybe if Sega of America wasn't run by incompetents that totally boffed the Saturn in the mid to late 90's, the N64 Virtual Boy combo would have been a much bigger problem for Nintendo. Or at least they might have had to hedge much more, and sooner, and retreat exclusively into their handheld fallout shelter with more and firmer competition in that time frame.

Out of PS1, Saturn and N64, if I could for some strange reason only have two, bye bye N64. That's my assessment. Not worthless, but weakest out of the group. Sales and Bernie be damned.

[Swamperon]

Out of PS1, Saturn and N64, if I could for some strange reason only have two, bye bye N64. That's my assessment. Not worthless, but weakest out of the group. Sales and Bernie be damned.

I suppose losing the N64 wouldn't be that bad anyway since almost everything of note for the system has since being re-released.

The only things I can think of that haven't are the Pokemon Stadiums, Mischief Makers, Harvest Moon 64, original Golden Eye and Turok(?).

Losing the Saturn would be much more painful.

[Kid Fenris]

August 1996:
http://kidfenris.com/n64cover1.png

May 1997:
http://kidfenris.com/n64cover.png

[Aussie2B]

the N64 sucked face it.

Wow, someone with the user name "RPG_Fanatic" doesn't like the N64. I'm shocked.

[Rob2600]

May 1997:

Nintendo is still in business. Next Generation magazine isn't.

Anyway, I work in publishing and I can tell you for a fact that covers (and articles, too) are specifically designed for shock value to boost sales. You can't take cover lines seriously.

[Enigmus]

Yes...because everybody know sales=quality. :roll:

This.

One thing I never see many people who think PSX was the best talk about (besides the early CD drive fail-rate contributing to system sales) is that at least two-fifths of the PSX's library was either licensed games based off of movies/TV shows that were horrendous, badly made sports titles, or edutainment/licensed kids games. The N64 didn't have much of that, and some of its' licensed games (Rogue Squadron, Goldeneye) are amazingly well done games.

Sales figures mean nothing when put up against game quality.

[Aussie2B]

No wonder Next Gen failed. They give 10 reasons why the N64 would succeed, twice as many as to why it would fail, and then tells us that Super Mario 64 is the best videogame of all time. What the hell message is the consumer supposed to get from that? Am I supposed to avoid the N64 because it'll fail? Am I supposed to buy it because it has the greatest videogame of all time? Am I expected to buy it and enjoy Super Mario 64 and then be miserable with the system thereafter as it fails? Talk about conflicting hyperbolic messages.

[Collector_Gaming]

No wonder Next Gen failed. They give 10 reasons why the N64 would succeed, twice as many as to why it would fail, and then tells us that Super Mario 64 is the best videogame of all time. What the hell message is the consumer supposed to get from that? Am I supposed to avoid the N64 because it'll fail? Am I supposed to buy it because it has the greatest videogame of all time? Am I expected to buy it and enjoy Super Mario 64 and then be miserable with the system thereafter as it fails? Talk about conflicting hyperbolic messages.


Anyway, I work in publishing and I can tell you for a fact that covers (and articles, too) are specifically designed for shock value to boost sales. You can't take cover lines seriously.

Its all about money. Its the same thing if you read those tabloid magazines.
One minute they will say one persons gonna marry this person and then next magazine will have that same person being like nope i am marrying this other person

it shocks and it sells and they get the money and thats all they care about

[soloman]

That seems like such a low number of Saturns to have been sold considering how successful it was in Japan. It sounds wrong that Saturn had well over 50% more games than N64 in its worldwide library (that number is concrete) but sold 70% less systems. Unless people who were buying Saturn just really liked it and were buying many more games per system after all...

Keep in mind the Saturn's lifespan was something like 3 years before Sega announced its successor. The system was still being manufactured well after Dreamcast came out but obviously the Dreamcast's announcement saw a sudden drop in popularity with the older system.


Maybe the N64 library has only a few killer apps and a lot of filler? Really when people talk about good N64 games you usually hear the same names over and over without much deviation. I know back when I was buying Saturn games new my brother and I were rarely disappointed and we had 30+ games.

Pretty much. Whenever you see lists of N64 games 90% of them are either by Nintendo or Rare. There were very few third-party exclusives and the multiplatform releases suffered from the system's low texture cache, poor sound, and the lack of extra storage from the CD medium. Sure, Megaman Legends and Tony Hawk's Pro Skater didn't have loading times but having to wait 5-10 seconds between levels is a fine price to pay for good music and voice acting (although Capcom did a bang up job with RE2 except for the compressed video).

I owned an N64 throughout its lifespan and all I can remember was buying a new PS1 game practically every month while the N64 collected dust until the next Nintendo/Rare release. I shelved the N64 afterward until I discovered the import scene and picked up a few classics like Sin and Punishment.

[Bojay1997]

Nintendo is still in business. Next Generation magazine isn't.

Anyway, I work in publishing and I can tell you for a fact that covers (and articles, too) are specifically designed for shock value to boost sales. You can't take cover lines seriously.

Next Generation was probably the last high quality US video game magazine around when it finally went under. Luckily, Edge, which was basically the UK version is still around. It's really sad how bad the US video game magazine market has become with "official" magazines and store owned publications making up the bulk of it.

[Rob2600]

Next Generation was probably the last high quality US video game magazine around when it finally went under.

Next Generation magazine looked nice and their interviews were interesting, but their predictions, reviews, and editorials were just as lame as GamePro, Gamefan, and EGM.

I had a small collection of old NG mags from the late 1990s. Before I got rid of them a few years ago, I browsed through them and couldn't believe I ever took their opinions seriously. Of course, now I know all of the video game magazines were in the pockets of some big publishers back then (Sony, Eidos, etc.).

[soloman]

I was a fan of GameFan because of their opinionated previews. If a game looked terrible in preview, they said it unlike other mags who take a positive light even on obviously bad looking games. They also used up every single centimeter of the page to stuff as many screenshots as possible.

I also enjoyed EGM for their reviews. All gaming publications need to take a multi-person review system because obviously a fan of first person shooters is going to rate a shooter with high markings. It wasn't uncommon to see one reviewer give a game a 10 while the others gave it a 6. It let you know whether or not the game could be enjoyed by everyone or it was for the fans only.

[Ryaan1234]

I find it hilarious that this thread, which was created as a parody of another thread, has lasted this long. Did anybody else realize that Richter Belmount created this thread to make fun of Urzu's "Sony's arrogance with the PSP (http://www.digitpress.com/forum/showthread.php?t=150668)" thread?

I will say that this thread has become a pretty decent conversation but I don't think that's what the OP had in mind.

[Kid Fenris]

Nintendo is still in business. Next Generation magazine isn't.


Future, Next Generation's publisher, is still in business. The Nintendo 64 is no longer manufactured. So much for YOUR argument.


No wonder Next Gen failed. They give 10 reasons why the N64 would succeed, twice as many as to why it would fail, and then tells us that Super Mario 64 is the best videogame of all time. What the hell message is the consumer supposed to get from that? Am I supposed to avoid the N64 because it'll fail? Am I supposed to buy it because it has the greatest videogame of all time? Am I expected to buy it and enjoy Super Mario 64 and then be miserable with the system thereafter as it fails? Talk about conflicting hyperbolic messages.

They are indeed conflicting hyperbolic messages, provided that the consumer is a cretin who reads only headlines instead of articles.

[buzz_n64]

I suppose losing the N64 wouldn't be that bad anyway since almost everything of note for the system has since being re-released.

The only things I can think of that haven't are the Pokemon Stadiums, Mischief Makers, Harvest Moon 64, original Golden Eye and Turok(?).

Losing the Saturn would be much more painful.

Turok was also released on the PC.

[sheath]

Wikipedia.org

Nebrazca78 used the words "commercial success," which is based entirely on sales and public perception. Otherwise, I wouldn't have quoted sales data.

I missed this earlier. Wikipedia is (still) not a source. It is useful for finding sources at best, but in and of itself it is not a source.

I realized that you were catering to the commercial success crowd in your post, I apologize if it seemed like I was correcting you.


Actually, based on reviews from 1996 to 2002, the N64 had the best "good game to bad game" ratio out of any game console. One out of five N64 games received an aggregate rating of 8.0 or higher.

This, and online reviews place the N64's quality to crap ratio at close to 1:1, that is half the library.

[Bojay1997]

Next Generation magazine looked nice and their interviews were interesting, but their predictions, reviews, and editorials were just as lame as GamePro, Gamefan, and EGM.

I had a small collection of old NG mags from the late 1990s. Before I got rid of them a few years ago, I browsed through them and couldn't believe I ever took their opinions seriously. Of course, now I know all of the video game magazines were in the pockets of some big publishers back then (Sony, Eidos, etc.).

That's the thing, I have never relied on magazines for game reviews as they were often outdated or based on pre-release version, even ten years ago. I enjoyed Next Gen because they were the only magazine that did in-depth interviews and studio profiles and also provided solid technical information about the capabilities of new hardware, etc...Yes, their editorial content and predictions were often off-base, but I ignored that stuff in every video game magazine anyway. I will say that at least they tried to provide some analysis which is more than most other magazines did at the time or do currently.

[soloman]

This, and online reviews place the N64's quality to crap ratio at close to 1:1, that is half the library.

Doesn't surprise me as N64 has fewer titles than the other 5th generation consoles and the production costs for cartridges were higher meaning less demand for easy shovelware.

[Aussie2B]

Whenever you see lists of N64 games 90% of them are either by Nintendo or Rare.

Frankly, I think that's because most N64 players aren't very well informed of what's available for the system. Personally, my two favorite N64 games, Goemon's Great Adventure and Wonder Project J2, are both third-party, and I can name plenty of other good third-party games. Heck, here's some just off the top of my head:

Mystical Ninja Starring Goemon
Mischief Makers
Castlevania: Legacy of Darkness
Wetrix
Beetle Adventure Racing
All of the Bomberman games
Harvest Moon 64
Ogre Battle 64
Both Snowboard Kids
Hybrid Heaven
Rayman 2
Space Station Silicon Valley
Rocket: Robot on Wheels
WipeOut 64

And so on. I'm limiting myself to American games here too. Few know much beyond Sin & Punishment, but I've discovered quite a few great games that didn't leave Japan, many being third-party.

[soloman]

Frankly, I think that's because most N64 players aren't very well informed of what's available for the system. Personally, my two favorite N64 games, Goemon's Great Adventure and Wonder Project J2, are both third-party, and I can name plenty of other good third-party games. Heck, here's some just off the top of my head:

Mystical Ninja Starring Goemon
Mischief Makers
Castlevania: Legacy of Darkness
Wetrix
Beetle Adventure Racing
All of the Bomberman games
Harvest Moon 64
Ogre Battle 64
Both Snowboard Kids
Hybrid Heaven
Rayman 2
Space Station Silicon Valley
Rocket: Robot on Wheels
WipeOut 64

And so on. I'm limiting myself to American games here too. Few know much beyond Sin & Punishment, but I've discovered quite a few great games that didn't leave Japan, many being third-party.

About half that list saw a limited/unadvertised release which didn't help the system's image. The better import titles are pretty friendly like Choro Q 2, Last Legion UX, and Bangai-O but again these all saw pretty limited releases even in Japan. Would be nice if someone made a translation patch for that Sakura Taisen game.

[frogofdeath]

Frankly, I think that's because most N64 players aren't very well informed of what's available for the system. Personally, my two favorite N64 games, Goemon's Great Adventure and Wonder Project J2, are both third-party, and I can name plenty of other good third-party games. Heck, here's some just off the top of my head:

Mystical Ninja Starring Goemon
Mischief Makers
Castlevania: Legacy of Darkness
Wetrix
Beetle Adventure Racing
All of the Bomberman games
Harvest Moon 64
Ogre Battle 64
Both Snowboard Kids
Hybrid Heaven
Rayman 2
Space Station Silicon Valley
Rocket: Robot on Wheels
WipeOut 64

Good list! Legacy of Darkness was actually good? I played the first outing, but could never get that into it, so I passed on Darkness.

Bold call on ALL of the Bomberman games. I absolutely love the first U.S. release and its under-appreciated multiplayer, but know many people loathe it with a passion. And yes, I am being serious about the multiplayer!

I would also add the THQ/AKI/Jakks wrestling games as some of the best-of-the-best. Few games capture the true feeling of their source quite like these games and I have yet to play a better wrestling game for any system. Though must say I'm not sure what the big deal is over Virtual Pro Wrestling 2. Good game? Yes. Worth importing? Only if you can't find WWF No Mercy.

[soloman]

AKI or Syn or whatever they call them now really knew how to make a good wrestling game. The Def Jam games were a pleasant surprise and probably my favorite wrestling games ever.

[Collector_Gaming]

AKI or Syn or whatever they call them now really knew how to make a good wrestling game. The Def Jam games were a pleasant surprise and probably my favorite wrestling games ever.

old def jam games or the newer ones?

i played one for the xbox 360 ( i borrowed it from my cousin) and fought myself to finish it cause i thought it was meh.

[soloman]

old def jam games or the newer ones?

i played one for the xbox 360 ( i borrowed it from my cousin) and fought myself to finish it cause i thought it was meh.

Icon (the one you played) was made by EA Chicago and not very good. The two AKI developed were supposed to be used for the next WCW game but EA lost the rights and took a leap of faith into uncharted territory. I'm not even a fan of wrestling titles but I loved the original DJ games.

[Aussie2B]

Good list! Legacy of Darkness was actually good? I played the first outing, but could never get that into it, so I passed on Darkness.

Bold call on ALL of the Bomberman games. I absolutely love the first U.S. release and its under-appreciated multiplayer, but know many people loathe it with a passion. And yes, I am being serious about the multiplayer!

Yeah, a few of those games can be kind of divisive. I know there are people out there that hate Castlevania and Hybrid Heaven also. As I wrote up that list, I was trying to think of games that are both good in my opinion and are generally well-liked by others. I could've included others that I like, such as Star Soldier: Vanishing Earth, Robotron 64, and Lode Runner 3-D, but I don't know if most players think much of them. I also left off ones that I don't have enough personal experience with (or fondness for the genre) to personally say are good. And I mostly avoided multi-platform releases if most people seem to prefer them on different hardware like Mega Man 64, Shadowman, Hydro Thunder, Resident Evil 2, etc., even if they're still good on N64. So, really, I could've come up with a much longer list if I wanted to. It may not even come close to the third-party support of the PlayStation, but I think there's quite a bit of interesting third-party stuff on N64.

[Rob2600]

I mostly avoided multi-platform releases if most people seem to prefer them on different hardware like Mega Man 64, Shadowman, Hydro Thunder, Resident Evil 2, etc., even if they're still good on N64.

Actually, the N64 version of Shadow Man is *vastly* superior than the PlayStation one. Rayman 2 is better on the N64 also, especially with the Expansion Pak. Mortal Kombat 4 and Acclaim's Wrestling games have better graphics on the N64.

And Resident Evil 2 is superior in a couple of ways: hi-res graphics with the Expansion Pak and Dolby surround sound.

[Doonzmore]

Winback: Covert Operations is also a great 3rd party title for mature gamers.

One of my favorite 3rd party contributers on the N64 is Midway:

NBA Hangtime - so it's not a graphic showcase, but my brothers and I played this for days back in the summer of 99. 4 player mode was ideal.

NBA Showtime - Same greatness as Hangtime but with 3D graphics.

NFL Blitz - 2001, Special Edition

Hydro Thunder

Mortal Kombat 4

Wayne Gretzky's 3D Hockey

Cruis'n Series - Pretty popular in the arcades and were exclusive to the system

Quake

Whipout 64

Ready 2 Rumble Boxing 1 + 2

Rush 2049

[Doonzmore]

This.

One thing I never see many people who think PSX was the best talk about (besides the early CD drive fail-rate contributing to system sales) is that at least two-fifths of the PSX's library was either licensed games based off of movies/TV shows that were horrendous, badly made sports titles, or edutainment/licensed kids games. The N64 didn't have much of that, and some of its' licensed games (Rogue Squadron, Goldeneye) are amazingly well done games.

Sales figures mean nothing when put up against game quality.

You really hit the nail on the head here. Sure, the N64 had some god awful titles like Carmageddon 64, Batman Beyond (which was also released on the PS1) and Superman 64 (which was still a top ten seller when it came out) but being an expensive system to produce cartridges for meant being spared of garbage like Crow: City of Angels, VR Powerboat Racing, Batman and Robin, and the list just rolls along the floor.

[Aussie2B]

Actually, the N64 version of Shadow Man is *vastly* superior than the PlayStation one. Rayman 2 is better on the N64 also, especially with the Expansion Pak.

I was thinking of the Dreamcast versions for those. Same with Hydro Thunder.

[Gameguy]

And I mostly avoided multi-platform releases if most people seem to prefer them on different hardware like Mega Man 64, Shadowman, Hydro Thunder, Resident Evil 2, etc., even if they're still good on N64.
I forgot that Resident Evil 2 was available on the N64, I agree with avoiding multi-platform games for comparisons. I do have Beetle Adventure Racing, it is a very good racing game. I'm just not that into racing games so I tend to forget about them after awhile, same with most sports games.

Wonder Project J2 actually looks interesting, it's the one game that I would actually want to play on the system. Too bad it wasn't released in North America or in English so I can't play it on an actual system.


Actually, the N64 version of Shadow Man is *vastly* superior than the PlayStation one. Rayman 2 is better on the N64 also, especially with the Expansion Pak. Mortal Kombat 4 and Acclaim's Wrestling games have better graphics on the N64.

And Resident Evil 2 is superior in a couple of ways: hi-res graphics with the Expansion Pak and Dolby surround sound.
I had Shadow Man, I didn't like it. To me the story was pretty stupid and it felt like a generic type of game. I played it for about an hour before shelving it, I eventually sold it off. I've played the DS version of Rayman 2(Rayman DS) and couldn't get into it either, I didn't feel like tracking down a copy for the N64 after playing the DS version so I'm not sure if they play differently.

[soloman]

I first heard of Wonder Project in a big double page spread Nintendo Power had. I'm pretty sure it was within the same year as a big cover article on EarthBound 64 and Super Mario "RPG 2" for the 64DD (which ended up being Paper Mario). Probably the high point of the magazine IMO.

Rayman 2 ran best on Dreamcast/PC and then they released a definitive version on the PS2. I can't vouch for the DS version but being a 3D, resource heavy platformer I couldn't imagine it being very good on a handheld.

I think my final straw on the N64 was with Quest 64. It was $70 or $80 new and the commercial made it seem downright awesome with voice acting and kickass combat. What with the internet still being in its infancy, I bought the game day 1 and forced myself to like it. You can break the game easily with water + earth but good god was it painful. Apparently it was a success so I guess there were thousands of people like me who bought it thinking "Wow, N64 got a Final Fantasy killer!" and we couldn't overcome the denial.

[Famidrive-16]

August 1996:
http://kidfenris.com/n64cover1.png

May 1997:
http://kidfenris.com/n64cover.png

Haha, fuckin Next Gen magazine. I had that first issue, I think in that one they even give SM64 the title of Greatest Game Ever, long before most people had a chance to play it.

edit: I can't read.

[Icarus Moonsight]

Whipout 64

Inches or centimeters? Either one, that would be most impressive, especially for a Japanese console. :@

I'd agree that the saving grace of the N64 is the handful of really good quality third-party exclusives along with most of the Nintendo first-party offerings. I'd take an inferior port on another system just to get away from the controller as a fair trade off. Still not as much there comparative to it's competition, but it does make the cut to be own worthy. In short, it doesn't have much, but what it has in the good is pretty damn great.

[Hep038]

I find it hilarious that this thread, which was created as a parody of another thread, has lasted this long. Did anybody else realize that Richter Belmount created this thread to make fun of Urzu's "Sony's arrogance with the PSP (http://www.digitpress.com/forum/showthread.php?t=150668)" thread?

I will say that this thread has become a pretty decent conversation but I don't think that's what the OP had in mind.


Anytime someone says anything bad about the N64 the usual suspects show up and start filling the thread with garbage and links about how great it was. TI is like they just cannot let it go. Even if someone is making a joke.

[Aussie2B]

Anytime someone says anything bad about the N64 the usual suspects show up and start filling the thread with garbage and links about how great it was. TI is like they just cannot let it go. Even if someone is making a joke.

The only "garbage" in the topic is the anti-fanboy bias, as if the N64 insulted somebody's mother or something. I don't see anyone gushing aimlessly. As for the "joke", I imagine a lot of people in this forum don't even visit Modern Gaming much, if at all, and even if the reference was caught, why not turn this into an actual worthwhile discussion than let it die a quick death as an unfunny joke?

[tom]

...being spared of garbage like Crow: City of Angels, VR Powerboat Racing, Batman and Robin, and the list just rolls along the floor.

I totally agree, Aussie2B

Actually no, now you guys just sound like....Oh I don't know what to write anymore, so I'm gonna put some anti-fanboy shit, usual suspects, all garbage etc. LAME.

[Rob2600]

Sure, the N64 had some god awful titles like Carmageddon 64, Batman Beyond (which was also released on the PS1) and Superman 64 ... but being an expensive system to produce cartridges for meant being spared of garbage like Crow: City of Angels, VR Powerboat Racing, Batman and Robin, and the list just rolls along the floor.

Don't forget Mortal Kombat: Special Forces, Flintstones Bowling (which had nothing to do with bowling), Spec Ops, Teletubbies, and Spice World. :)


To be fair, N64 had The Powerpuff Girls: Chemical X-traction which was equally as bad.

[Melf]

You really hit the nail on the head here. Sure, the N64 had some god awful titles like Carmageddon 64, Batman Beyond (which was also released on the PS1) and Superman 64 (which was still a top ten seller when it came out) but being an expensive system to produce cartridges for meant being spared of garbage like Crow: City of Angels, VR Powerboat Racing, Batman and Robin, and the list just rolls along the floor.

I think the N64 was spared the deluge of bad games because no one could find one worse than Superman 64. :p

The debate about the controller may be old, but that doesn't make it any less valid. It's no surprise that it worked brilliantly with Mario 64, but it just sucked ass for everything else. I'll take a Dual Shock - or even better, a Japanese Saturn pad (best. controller. ever) over the N64 claw any day of the week.

[Rob2600]

The debate about the controller may be old, but that doesn't make it any less valid. It's no surprise that it worked brilliantly with Mario 64, but it just sucked ass for everything else.

I love the N64 controller. It works great with The Legend of Zelda games (Z targeting), first person shooters, and other platformers (Banjo-Kazooie, Rayman 2, etc.). It's one of my top five favorite controllers ever.

I even thought it worked fine for one on one fighting games (Killer Instinct Gold, Mortal Kombat 4, Mace, etc.), but I could see how a hard-core fighting gamer would disagree.

[nebrazca78]

Actually, based on reviews from 1996 to 2002, the N64 had the best "good game to bad game" ratio out of any game console. One out of five N64 games received an aggregate rating of 8.0 or higher.

Didn't Saturn hold this title from 1994 to 1997 or so?


I was a fan of GameFan because of their opinionated previews. If a game looked terrible in preview, they said it unlike other mags who take a positive light even on obviously bad looking games. They also used up every single centimeter of the page to stuff as many screenshots as possible.

Gamefan was a fantastic magazine. You know what wasn't fantastic though? Having to call them up every month to remind them that you had a subscription because otherwise they would "forget" to send them to you.

Also forgot to say Excitebike 64 is one of the most amazing games ever made. Still the most realistic motocross game I've ever played. I don't know how they programmed it to give you such unique crashes every time but that always blew me away.

.

[Malon_Forever]

Mystical Ninja Starring Goemon
Mischief Makers
Castlevania: Legacy of Darkness
Wetrix
Beetle Adventure Racing
All of the Bomberman games
Harvest Moon 64
Ogre Battle 64
Both Snowboard Kids
Hybrid Heaven
Rayman 2
Space Station Silicon Valley
Rocket: Robot on Wheels
WipeOut 64

And so on. I'm limiting myself to American games here too. Few know much beyond Sin & Punishment, but I've discovered quite a few great games that didn't leave Japan, many being third-party.

So true. So many good games. My favorite system of all time.

[j_factor]

I was one of the few Saturn owners. I got a Saturn in December of 1995 and didn't regret it at all until 1998 when I was wondering where all the Saturn games went. 1996 was an amazing year, game-wise, with a Saturn. I found myself trading in my old systems and games to buy more Saturn games. I had a good friend with a Playstation at this time, and thought it had a fair number of good games of its own. When the N64 came out I thought it was laughable. Who wants to be stuck with cartridges? And two whole games at launch, and if I remember correctly, still fewer than 10 games available by the end of the year. I definitely played more than 10 new Saturn games during that time period.

I always felt like people overrated individual N64 games due to the overall lack of software. It was like, this is our only major release this month, so it must be awesome! There were some times when N64 would get a steady flow of releases for a while, but then it would get very slow and every game was an event.

This isn't to say that N64 doesn't have some good games. I just think its library is kind of pathetic. Compared to Saturn, it was on the market almost twice as long and sold approx. ten times as many units (in North America), and it has, what, 50 more games? Hell, it sold more than twice as much as Saturn and Dreamcast combined and was around for their combined lifespans, yet its library is about 60% the size of Saturn and Dreamcast. Plus, not many multiplatform games were best on N64.

[buzz_n64]

Ok, so have have a lot of haters, and and a lot of fans. Each side has their points. If someone doesn't like the N64, that's fine, more games for me.

The topic however, is off track, it was supposed to be one of two things.

A silly joke thread where we would have funny outlandish comments. (Some of the haters have fulfilled that)

Or seriously discussing how the N64 launch was, and Nintendo's attitude.

[j_factor]

There's only so much you can say about the N64 launch specifically. It had two games. It sucked. The end.

[Rob2600]

seriously discussing how the N64 launch was, and Nintendo's attitude.

I'm sure Nintendo wanted to delay the N64's launch, but competition from Sega and Sony forced it out a little early, so the library was sparse for several months. On the bright side, we got Super Mario 64 on day one, which is still considered a masterpiece. And we got Wave Race 64 six weeks later- another masterpiece.

Blast Corps, Doom 64, Pilotwings 64, and Star Wars: Shadows of the Empire held me over until Mario Kart 64. :)

Then came Star Fox 64... and then Goldeneye 007...



There's only so much you can say about the N64 launch specifically. It had two games. It sucked. The end.

I wouldn't say it sucked, considering one of those two games was hailed as the greatest video game of all time by every magazine and web site. :)

[j_factor]

I don't believe it would have been hailed as such if not for the circumstances of its release.

[Rob2600]

I don't believe it would have been hailed as such if not for the circumstances of its release.

So Super Mario 64 didn't deserve the praise it received?

[j_factor]

No. That's not to say it's not deserving of any praise, mind you.

[Malon_Forever]

Super Mario 64 is easily one of the greatest games ever. (IMO)

[Aussie2B]

15 years later, I would probably still say that Super Mario 64 is the best free-roaming 3D platformer I've played. It wasn't only hype or the lack of other games, it's just an amazing game and is still recognized as such, by the industry, by players, and by kids that never played it when it was new (or when the N64 was even still alive). It won't be everyone's cup of tea, but it's hard to deny the effort that was put into the game. Super Mario 64 was the game that the N64 was invented for.

So, really, the N64 could have had ONE game at launch and it would've been fine by me. If you were buying the system at launch looking for something else to buy, you were doing it wrong.

In comparison, let's look at the PlayStation's launch with 10 games:

Total Eclipse Turbo
Power Serve Tennis
Street Fighter: The Movie
NBA Jam: Tournament Edition
Battle Arena Toshinden
Ridge Racer
The Raiden Project
Kileak: The DNA Imperative
ESPN ESPN2 Extreme Games
Rayman

First off, pretty much no one still knows/cares about these games, not remotely on the level of Super Mario 64 at least. Second, even as collectors, gamers that are more informed and more willing to try out obscure/forgotten games, how many do you guys think are worth giving a damn about whatsoever in this day and age? I would say only four: Toshinden, Ridge Racer, Raiden, and Rayman. And even though those may be worth picking up for cheap, none of those are remotely worth buying the PlayStation at launch for and spending $360 (even more if you picked up a memory card). I would easily say that the N64 had a far more satisfying launch, and I say this despite being a huge PS1 fan as well.

The Saturn isn't even worth comparing because it only had a whopping ONE more launch release than N64. It had Virtua Fighter, Panzer Dragoon, and Daytona USA. But I'd say that was a more successful launch than the PlayStation's as well since those games are still held in decently high regards. They sure as hell weren't worth paying $400 plus the games' prices in my opinion, though. I'll take my N64 and Super Mario 64 for $260 any day, thanks.

[soloman]

What it boils down to is variety. SM64 may be a masterpiece in gaming design, but if you don't like platformers then the entire launch is rendered worthless. The PS1 didn't have a memorable launch but at least there's something for everyone.

[Rob2600]

What it boils down to is variety. SM64 may be a masterpiece in gaming design, but if you don't like platformers then the entire launch is rendered worthless. The PS1 didn't have a memorable launch but at least there's something for everyone.

Good point. Pilotwings 64 was a nice game, too...perhaps a bit overrated at the time, but still a fun, polished, impressive game.

And of course, within the next several weeks in time for Christmas, there was Killer Instinct Gold, Mortal Kombat Trilogy, Cruis'n USA, Wayne Gretzky's 3D Hockey, Star Wars: Shadows of the Empire, and the fantastic Wave Race 64.



15 years later, I would probably still say that Super Mario 64 is the best free-roaming 3D platformer I've played. It wasn't only hype or the lack of other games, it's just an amazing game and is still recognized as such, by the industry, by players, and by kids that never played it when it was new...

In comparison, let's look at the PlayStation's launch with 10 games:

Total Eclipse Turbo
Power Serve Tennis
Street Fighter: The Movie
NBA Jam: Tournament Edition
Battle Arena Toshinden
Ridge Racer
The Raiden Project
Kileak: The DNA Imperative
ESPN ESPN2 Extreme Games
Rayman

First off, pretty much no one still knows/cares about these games, not remotely on the level of Super Mario 64 at least. Second, even as collectors, gamers that are more informed and more willing to try out obscure/forgotten games, how many do you guys think are worth giving a damn about whatsoever in this day and age? I would say only four: Toshinden, Ridge Racer, Raiden, and Rayman. And even though those may be worth picking up for cheap, none of those are remotely worth buying the PlayStation at launch for and spending $360 (even more if you picked up a memory card). I would easily say that the N64 had a far more satisfying launch, and I say this despite being a huge PS1 fan as well.

Excellent points. So which is better: a launch with one A+ masterpiece game that goes down in history as being one of the best of all time, or a launch with 10 fairly decent games that cover multiple genres?

Which launch is more satisfying at the time? And which launch is looked back on more favorably a decade or two later?



The Saturn isn't even worth comparing because it only had a whopping ONE more launch release than N64. It had Virtua Fighter, Panzer Dragoon, and Daytona USA.

And one of those Saturn launch games wasn't completely finished: Virtua Fighter.

[The 1 2 P]

I wouldn't say it sucked, considering one of those two games was hailed as the greatest video game of all time by every magazine and web site. :)

All of those magazines and websites lied. I personally didn't like Super Mario 64 or see the appeal but to each their own.

[Richter Belmount]

They lied? So its impossible to like super mario 64?

[The 1 2 P]

Where do I say "it's impossible to like super mario 64"? Look at what Rob2600 typed and then look at what I typed.

[Richter Belmount]

You said it your words.

[The 1 2 P]

Apparently you can't read because my words were:


I personally didn't like Super Mario 64 or see the appeal but to each their own.

[Aussie2B]

Well, saying that those magazines and sites lied does imply that you believe that there was no possible way for those people in the press to genuinely feel that Super Mario 64 was an amazing game, enough to perhaps even consider it the best they've ever played.

Not that I don't think there was a lot of hyperbole going on, but I also don't think the press was secretly tenting their fingertips a la Mr. Burns saying "Hee hee, we're telling them that this is the greatest game ever, but we really think it stinks!"

[j_factor]

15 years later, I would probably still say that Super Mario 64 is the best free-roaming 3D platformer I've played. It wasn't only hype or the lack of other games, it's just an amazing game and is still recognized as such, by the industry, by players, and by kids that never played it when it was new (or when the N64 was even still alive).

Every single time I've seen someone elaborate on why they think Super Mario 64 is so great, they invariable explain it as "Back in 1996..." or "When the N64 launched..." I stand by my assertion that the circumstances of its release are a big part of the praise it got and continues to get.


It won't be everyone's cup of tea, but it's hard to deny the effort that was put into the game. Super Mario 64 was the game that the N64 was invented for.

So is that why new releases were so slow? Because the system was invented for one particular game? :p


So, really, the N64 could have had ONE game at launch and it would've been fine by me. If you were buying the system at launch looking for something else to buy, you were doing it wrong.

I can't fathom how you were satisfied with one game. I would never, ever buy a system for only one game -- THAT is "doing it wrong", IMO. Variety is the spice of life.

It brings to mind that one anti-N64 ad: "Do you want to play, or twiddle your thumbs?" Even if I did love Mario 64, I would still find the N64's launch and aftermath rather pathetic.


In comparison, let's look at the PlayStation's launch with 10 games:

Total Eclipse Turbo
Power Serve Tennis
Street Fighter: The Movie
NBA Jam: Tournament Edition
Battle Arena Toshinden
Ridge Racer
The Raiden Project
Kileak: The DNA Imperative
ESPN ESPN2 Extreme Games
Rayman

First off, pretty much no one still knows/cares about these games, not remotely on the level of Super Mario 64 at least. Second, even as collectors, gamers that are more informed and more willing to try out obscure/forgotten games, how many do you guys think are worth giving a damn about whatsoever in this day and age? I would say only four: Toshinden, Ridge Racer, Raiden, and Rayman. And even though those may be worth picking up for cheap, none of those are remotely worth buying the PlayStation at launch for and spending $360 (even more if you picked up a memory card). I would easily say that the N64 had a far more satisfying launch, and I say this despite being a huge PS1 fan as well.

But Playstation had a steady stream of releases following, including such notable titles as Doom (by far the best console version at that time), Twisted Metal, WipEout, Warhawk, Destruction Derby, Discworld, Descent, and Jumping Flash!. The Playstation had more good/notable games in its launch-to-Christmas period than N64 had total releases in its corresponding period.


The Saturn isn't even worth comparing because it only had a whopping ONE more launch release than N64. It had Virtua Fighter, Panzer Dragoon, and Daytona USA. But I'd say that was a more successful launch than the PlayStation's as well since those games are still held in decently high regards.

You're forgetting Clockwork Knight. :p

And actually, although the internet refers to the Saturn's "launch" as being in May, that was officially only a limited prerelease. The Saturn officially launched in September with around 20 games:

http://i.imgur.com/Qw9tu.jpg

This is a screen from a video Sega circulated to promote the Saturn's launch. It is also featured as the intro video on the "Choice Cuts" disc.

(Yeah, I know, "spleen-busting"? Who the hell came up with that?)

Unfortunately I haven't been able to find or compile a concrete list of those 20 games.

But by the end of the year, Saturn had a lot of great games, covering a wide variety of genres. Platform, racing, fighting, strategy, sports, rail shooter, light gun, shmup, adventure, and even a passable RPG. That's more genres than N64 had games.

[Malon_Forever]

I can't fathom how you were satisfied with one game. I would never, ever buy a system for only one game -- THAT is "doing it wrong", IMO. Variety is the spice of life.


One game at a time. Super Mario 64 lasted a good while. And I don't see how what launch games there were have to do with how good the system was.

[j_factor]

One game at a time. Super Mario 64 lasted a good while.

Yeah but then there was little else.


And I don't see how what launch games there were have to do with how good the system was.

It doesn't, I was initially responding to buzz_n64's post that this thread is supposed to be about the N64's launch. So we started talking about the N64's launch.

[Aussie2B]

Every single time I've seen someone elaborate on why they think Super Mario 64 is so great, they invariable explain it as "Back in 1996..." or "When the N64 launched..." I stand by my assertion that the circumstances of its release are a big part of the praise it got and continues to get.

Then I don't think you've seen many people elaborating on their fondness of Super Mario 64. What about all the kids out there that love Super Mario 64 or the DS version of it that weren't even born yet in 1996? What about the kids that were way too young to experience or remember the launch? What about latecomers, like collectors around here that didn't bother to get a N64 until much past the launch or even past the end of the N64? What about all the Player's Choice copies that continued to sell long past the launch and hype machine?

There are so many people that love Super Mario 64 without knowing anything of its launch. And even if one makes mention of the launch, who's to say that the hype or limited selection of N64 games "tainted" their perspective of the game? It's a historically significant game, so it's worth talking about its history. It was also mind-blowing for many gamers that had never seen or experienced anything quite like it. It really was the first of its kind. No attempt at something resembling a 3D platformer prior to that was even in the same ballpark.


I can't fathom how you were satisfied with one game. I would never, ever buy a system for only one game -- THAT is "doing it wrong", IMO. Variety is the spice of life.

I never said anything about buying the system for only that game, but I think every system-buying decision should have that one catalyst game that makes the initial purchase and playing worthwhile. I wouldn't be sold on just being promised a variety of good games. I want one AMAZING game first and foremost. Then picking up more quality games afterwords is icing on the cake (quite literally in the case of Mario 64 given its ending, heh). Maybe some rich folk out there will buy a system at launch and buy a whole assortment of games at the same time, but I always start with just one.


It brings to mind that one anti-N64 ad: "Do you want to play, or twiddle your thumbs?" Even if I did love Mario 64, I would still find the N64's launch and aftermath rather pathetic.

But Playstation had a steady stream of releases following, including such notable titles as Doom (by far the best console version at that time), Twisted Metal, WipEout, Warhawk, Destruction Derby, Discworld, Descent, and Jumping Flash!. The Playstation had more good/notable games in its launch-to-Christmas period than N64 had total releases in its corresponding period.

Well, you have to pick your argument here. You can't specifically talk about the N64's launch, saying that it sucked because it only had two releases, and then excuse the PlayStation's launch day by bringing up what followed. If you're going to play that game, then others have already spoken of the solid titles that were available in the N64's first few months.

In my own experience, Super Mario 64 kept me busy for a good month or two, then I had Pilotwings 64, which kept me busy until Cruis'n USA, and that kept me busy until Mario Kart 64, and so on. While I played a smattering of late SNES releases in 96/97 also, the rate of releases was good enough for me.

Also, even if we take those later PlayStation games into consideration that you've listed, those games still aren't remembered on remotely the same level as Super Mario 64 (or even Wave Race 64). In fact, I'd argue that a few of those are pretty bad, despite what popularity they had at the time. Most of those are regarded as aging pretty badly (which, to me, is another way of saying that the hype wore off). Jumping Flash! is the only one that collectors still want to play now in 2011 for the most part. Maybe the competition from the N64 was good for PlayStation since I don't think it really came into its own until '97 and later. As much as I love collecting longbox games, there's not a lot still worth playing in that set, and I think the playing habits of others PS1 collectors similarly skew toward the jewel case releases.

[j_factor]

Then I don't think you've seen many people elaborating on their fondness of Super Mario 64.

Actually, I have.


What about all the kids out there that love Super Mario 64 or the DS version of it that weren't even born yet in 1996? What about the kids that were way too young to experience or remember the launch?

Do you have regular conversations with young children about games? I don't.


What about latecomers, like collectors around here that didn't bother to get a N64 until much past the launch or even past the end of the N64? What about all the Player's Choice copies that continued to sell long past the launch and hype machine?

I'm not hearing anything from people in that group who were crazy about the game, or seeing any in-depth write-ups of their opinions. The few people I've talked to who didn't play the game until much later didn't like it all that much.


There are so many people that love Super Mario 64 without knowing anything of its launch.

Show me some, then.


And even if one makes mention of the launch, who's to say that the hype or limited selection of N64 games "tainted" their perspective of the game? It's a historically significant game, so it's worth talking about its history. It was also mind-blowing for many gamers that had never seen or experienced anything quite like it. It really was the first of its kind. No attempt at something resembling a 3D platformer prior to that was even in the same ballpark.

This is exactly what I'm talking about -- people talk about it as a good tech demo or a novel innovation more than they talk about it as an actual game. I give it credit for its achievements, but that doesn't make it actually good.


I never said anything about buying the system for only that game,

You said it would've been fine by you if it had one game at launch.


but I think every system-buying decision should have that one catalyst game that makes the initial purchase and playing worthwhile. I wouldn't be sold on just being promised a variety of good games. I want one AMAZING game first and foremost. Then picking up more quality games afterwords is icing on the cake (quite literally in the case of Mario 64 given its ending, heh). Maybe some rich folk out there will buy a system at launch and buy a whole assortment of games at the same time, but I always start with just one.

I'm not rich, but I've always started with multiple games. No one game is that "amazing" to me. When I bought a Saturn I bought 12 games, a few with the system, the rest within a week or so. When I eventually got a Playstation, it too didn't have to do with any one particular game. Even when I got a Wii at launch, it wasn't for any one game, but because there were 8 or 9 launch games that interested me, plus more in the pipeline.


Well, you have to pick your argument here. You can't specifically talk about the N64's launch, saying that it sucked because it only had two releases, and then excuse the PlayStation's launch day by bringing up what followed.

The N64's launch sucked because it only had two releases, and the N64's immediate post-launch period sucked because it only had an additional six. Playstation had a so-so launch but a great post-launch period. That's hardly contradictory.


If you're going to play that game, then others have already spoken of the solid titles that were available in the N64's first few months.

Just Wave Race, really. The others are a good example of what I was talking about with N64 games being overrated due to the lack of other games available. Shadows of the Empire is dreck, but many N64 owners convinced themselves it was good.


In my own experience, Super Mario 64 kept me busy for a good month or two, then I had Pilotwings 64, which kept me busy until Cruis'n USA, and that kept me busy until Mario Kart 64, and so on. While I played a smattering of late SNES releases in 96/97 also, the rate of releases was good enough for me.

The rate of releases was good enough if everybody all plays the same games. There's a dearth of options. With N64, if you didn't like Mario 64, you were kind of screwed. There was no one Playstation game that everyone had to like, to appreciate the system.


Also, even if we take those later PlayStation games into consideration that you've listed, those games still aren't remembered on remotely the same level as Super Mario 64 (or even Wave Race 64).

Yeah, because they were all in competition with each other, whereas Mario 64 was virtually the only gig in town. None of those games was played by every Playstation owner, because they had a good number of options. Mario 64 was played by almost every N64 owner, at least in that early period.

Moreover, I would much rather have 12 games that aren't remembered on the same level, but are nevertheless fun, than two games that are supposedly better.


In fact, I'd argue that a few of those are pretty bad, despite what popularity they had at the time. Most of those are regarded as aging pretty badly (which, to me, is another way of saying that the hype wore off). Jumping Flash! is the only one that collectors still want to play now in 2011 for the most part.

Nonsense. The only game on there that's like that is Twisted Metal. The others are still great. Although I prefer the Saturn version of WipEout.

[Doonzmore]

I totally agree, Aussie2B

Actually no, now you guys just sound like....Oh I don't know what to write anymore, so I'm gonna put some anti-fanboy shit, usual suspects, all garbage etc. LAME.

You can't have it both ways. How about contributing something meaningful to this topic instead making yourself look foolish?

Anyway,

Not to sound like an N64 fanboy (hell, one of my favorite games I played last year was The Mummy on the Playstation) but did the Playstation have anything remotely like Super Mario 64 at the time? It didn't seem like it to me. If anything developers were jumping the kart racing and party game bandwagon with Crash Bash, Crash Team Racing and the bad Sonic Shuffle because Mario Kart 64 and the Mario Party series were so successful.

Someone once told me Alundra was the Playstation's answer to Ocarina of Time. I haven't played the first one (didn't get into the 2nd one very much) so I don't know if that claim is true.

Has there been a thread on here discussing the best system launch?

[Aussie2B]

Show me some, then.

That's just a silly cop-out internet-style comeback. I explained to you the types of people that have liked Super Mario 64 without buying it at launch. It's ridiculous to request that someone tracks down a bunch of people to post in a topic just to prove a single logical point that will never be believed by someone who refuses to believe. I bet even if I fulfilled this absurd request you would then say that they're made-up alternate accounts or that the people are lying or something equally ridiculous.

But given the basic fact that the N64 has existed for nearly 15 years, it's only logical that many people have discovered it since Sept. 96. And most of those people still do indeed like Super Mario 64 because negative comments on it are in the minority. You do the research if you feel it necessary. I'm sure there are countless topics right here on Digital Press with people talking about getting a N64 for the first time over the past decade and still enjoying SM64.


This is exactly what I'm talking about -- people talk about it as a good tech demo or a novel innovation more than they talk about it as an actual game. I give it credit for its achievements, but that doesn't make it actually good.

That's just ridiculous to me. Tech demo? Novel? If you want to talk about Pilotwings 64 like that, I could understand, but SM64 is all about its gameplay before graphics or anything else. It's loaded with action, puzzles, secrets, etc. When people praise SM64, it's because they like PLAYING it, not just looking at it. If someone doesn't like the gameplay, more power to them, but implying that it doesn't have gameplay at all is going to get scoffs from most people.


You said it would've been fine by you if it had one game at launch.

And it was. I only bought one, and it kept me happy for a good long while (and through replays as well). That doesn't at all suggest that I wasn't planning on buying more games later on.


Just Wave Race, really. The others are a good example of what I was talking about with N64 games being overrated due to the lack of other games available. Shadows of the Empire is dreck, but many N64 owners convinced themselves it was good.

And stuff like Descent and Destruction Derby aren't dreck? If you think games like those are great (especially if you think they're better than SM64), then I just don't know what to say.


The rate of releases was good enough if everybody all plays the same games. There's a dearth of options. With N64, if you didn't like Mario 64, you were kind of screwed. There was no one Playstation game that everyone had to like, to appreciate the system.

I would argue that someone who doesn't like SM64 probably shouldn't be buying a N64 period. That means you probably would also not appreciate the Banjo games, Conker, Donkey Kong 64, Kirby 64, Rayman 2, Rocket, and so many of the N64's best games. No system is perfect for everybody, even the PlayStation included. I mean, if someone was really looking for 3D platformers, then the PlayStation was pretty crappy. Crash and Spyro are about the most notable ones on the system, and they don't compare to the offerings of Nintendo and Rare (plus they came along after Super Mario 64). I think most people would also agree that a fan of console FPS games was better off with a N64 as well. And if someone likes 2D fighters, I think they're screwed with both the N64 and PlayStation because most of the ones on PlayStation are butchered.

But limited options aside, the pre-Christmas releases for N64 did cover platformers, flight sims, racing, fighting, sports, and action/adventure, so it's not like there wasn't a fair amount of genre representation. That's not to say every game was a shining example of its genre, but that was certainly the case with PlayStation as well. I think much of those early popular PlayStation games were only popular because there wasn't anything better. As a result, they've justly been forgotten, as is the case with the N64's Cruis'n USA for example, but games like Super Mario 64 and Wave Race 64 are still loved and played because they're genuinely good games (in most people's eyes, at least). Hype isn't eternal. It can only hide a sub-par game for so long.


None of those games was played by every Playstation owner, because they had a good number of options.

I don't think that's a fair argument at this point in time. Those PlayStation games were popular sellers, many were available for cheap as Greatest Hits later on, they're extremely cheap now and easily accessible by collectors. Most PlayStation collectors have at least a couple of those in their collections, and they'll get tried out for 30 minutes and then get shelved. They'd rather be playing genuinely good PlayStation games that are still enjoyable and highly regarded to this day like Metal Gear Solid and Final Fantasy VII. Super Mario 64 is in their company, not junk like the first Twisted Metal.

Anyway, this is getting dangerously close to a system argument, which I don't think any of us want or need. I personally love the 32/64-bit generation in general. I can even appreciate the PC-FX, with its paltry 60-some games and its complete lack of many genres.

[todesengel]

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c331/Dennieaa/internet_argument.jpg