Console Shelving/displays

[Ponyponypony]

So, me and my fiancee have been collecting for about a year now, and so far we've amassed about 38 different gaming systems...Right now, we only have "space" to have about 14/15 hooked up to the TV. We're kind of desperate because we want to have everything hooked up, or at least on the same sort of shelving... I had thought of having a bookshelf with the power cable/AV cables next to them, and then just hooking the consoles up as needed. However, I did want to check and see how you veterans have your collections hooked up, or if anyone can recommend anything.

[sheath]

For that many systems I would give up on book shelves and go for those industrial metal racks with the adjustable shelves (http://www.samsclub.com/sams/shop/product.jsp?productId=179150&navAction=push). That link isn't exactly what I was picturing, I would find the shelving people use for server arrays and go with that. You could even get them with wheels and have each connected to their own switch.

We had to make our own cabinet and shelving system to keep eleven of my consoles hooked up. I could probably add enough shelves to get to fifteen, but short of having the unit go eight feet high (as my games shelf does) I don't think I could get to thirty.

[c0ldb33r]

I gave up having everything hooked up. The simple reality is that some of them were only played a few times per year, so it made more sense just to keep them put away until needed.

I've got a closet with shelves set up, I keep everything in there. My gaming TV has about 5 things hooked up. My main TV has the 3 current gen systems. That's it! :)

[VACRMH]

Personally, I keep the most used systems hooked up and the others packed away. But I pack them away in an easy to reach location, with all the supplies needed. So I could just reach in, and grab the system, power, video and controller.

If you do want them all at one, I liked how someone here built a custom shelf that wasn't too tall (maybe 2 feet tall), but they put a tiny shelf in it to hold 3 or 4 video switchers that were daisy chained into another switcher that went into the TV.

So for example, they could pick NES from the Nintendo video switcher, and hit the button on the main switcher that went to the Nintendo switcher.

I've seen other little shelves that are made for holding components, but most of them don't have any way to hide the massacre of cables, at least with a shelf like that you could hide them behind it :)

Good luck! And if you make something, submit it to Flack's new site!

[Ponyponypony]

Yeah, we're violating half of the fire code book right now with our set up. Thanks for the input y'all!

[VACRMH]

Found the picture, it was from "Zach"

http://www.zachcollier.com/images/GameShelf.jpg

[Flack]

Good luck! And if you make something, submit it to Flack's new site!

Woo hoo, LoveThyShelf.com (http://www.LoveThyShelf.com)'s first plug! Thanks man!

For years I had all my systems hooked up and ready to go at all times. As those of you who have done this know, that requires a lot of shelves, a lot of power strips, and a lot of video switch boxes. I used a Pelican 8-port switchbox, and then hooked 4-port switchboxes into all 8 of the Pelican's ports. I then grouped "like" systems into groups of four. For example, box 1 was my current gen systems. 1-1 was my PS2, 1-2 was my Xbox, 1-3 was my Gamecube, and 1-4 was my Dreamcast. In one box I had all my mono systems like the NES, my C64, etc, and then I used a single Y splitter to split the audio into both channels of my stereo. Yes, things got very confusing very quickly, and I had a master list that explained what to press to get what system.

I originally built my shelves so that they were to my right, so that no matter which system I was playing, the controller would reach. This worked okay with one player games, but with two player games that meant that player two's controller cord was always slapping me on the legs or in my face. Here is a picture of them before I painted them.

http://www.robohara.com/photo/albums/misc/upstairs_gameroom/IMG_5388.jpg

I actually drew up the plans and experimented with a rotating coffee table. The table would have had shelves on all four sides of the table, and would be mounted on a rotating pedestal that would have allowed access to many machines. I didn't personally have the knowledge to built the rotating part, but I always thought it sounded like a good idea. The power and video cables would run down through the bottom and not rotate.

This picture was from several years ago. Currently, all I have hooked up are my PS3 and my 360. When I hook up other systems, which isn't too often anymore, I pull them out of the closet and hook them up one at a time. I found that even with 20 or 30 systems hooked up, I could still only play one at a time.

[portnoyd]

For the current incarnation of our gameroom, we opted to get modular type shelves from Walmart as shown here:

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2569/3937837000_8932e157f5_z.jpg

Was literally the only way to get the TV in the center. After a year and a half, still holding that heavy ass TV in place. The shelving is a bit wobbly but never even close to tipping over.

We have about 12 systems hooked up and really, that's all we need. Be sure to make use of backwards compability systems (PS2 instead of PS1, Wii instead of Cube, Colecovision with Atari add-on instead of 2600) to get more coverage with less systems up. The Pelican Pro System Selector as Flack mentioned is an absolute must. I would not recommend daisy chaining with 4 port boxes. I've found you get poor signals and confused wiring and it just isn't worth it.

[megasdkirby]

I've found you get poor signals and confused wiring and it just isn't worth it.

You could get around this by adding a coaxial amplifier with at least 25db output.

It clarifies almost anything to a crisp picture. But for some reason, I can see what I can identify as "scrolling magnetic lines" from top to bottom when used. It doesn't affect all consoles, but some (like for instance, the Colecovision).

But it helps, nonetheless.

[sheath]

Rats, I'm just so happy with it right now even though the TV set has changed.

http://www.gamepilgrimage.com/sites/default/files/library_pics/Systems08_000.jpg

http://www.gamepilgrimage.com/sites/default/files/library_pics/Library2008_000.jpg

I need to update these pics, it's been three years. Wow.

-edit-

Until I find a way to show a smaller picture here, that first link should suffice for those who care to see.

-edit-edit-

I finally got around to taking some current pictures of My Library (http://www.gamepilgrimage.com/content/my-library). Here are some small shots, click the link above for access to full size pictures.

http://www.gamepilgrimage.com/sites/default/files/library_pics/EntertainmentCabinet_2-11small.jpg

http://www.gamepilgrimage.com/sites/default/files/library_pics/EntertainmentCabinet_2-11_closed_small.jpg

http://www.gamepilgrimage.com/sites/default/files/library_pics/Tower-o-Awesome_2-11small.jpg

[Trebuken]

I used to have a large Sauder entertainment center which held a 32" TV in the middle. I added shelves to it and was eventually able to get near 30 systems on it.

I would put systems like the Dreamcast and SNES on one shelf, larger systems like the Atari 5200 got there own shelf. Systems with wireless controllers went above the TV.

I'm currently am without a setup, but my plan in the future is to have several TV's in place of having everything tied to one.

[Polygon]

Right now I have all my systems hooked up except my 32X and the Wii is in a larger room. It's not too hard to have all my systems hooked up since I don't have that many. At least compared to a lot of people here. I'm not too happy with the way things are set up right now. When I move I'm going to have a room just for the systems. One side of the room will have an LCD for the newer systems and the other side will have a CRT for the older systems. I would like to build two T.V. stands with space for the systems below. Then below that, drawers to hold all the controllers and accessories.

Anyhow, here's I have it set up right now. It works but it isn't ideal.

http://www.synapsepc.com/Hosting/Images/Computers/HTPC/Consoles.jpg

http://www.synapsepc.com/Hosting/Images/Computers/HTPC/XBox%20&%20PS2.jpg

http://www.synapsepc.com/Hosting/Images/Computers/HTPC/Rack.jpg

[Orion Pimpdaddy]

I set mine up so that the controllers are always plugged in, and everything's ready to go. Click the link in my sig to see the details.

http://roomofdoom.powweb.com/gallery2/main.php?g2_itemId=264487



http://i698.photobucket.com/albums/vv349/Orion_Pimpdaddy/Copyofsetup2.jpg

[Collector_Gaming]

i know thats not the point of the thread but i love these pics of displays.. you guys are giving me ideas. very very cool!

[Goodwill Hunter]

This is an older picture, but I have about 2 dozen systems hooked up at once.

http://img97.imageshack.us/img97/3140/gwhfront.jpg

I hooked up as many systems as I could with RCA jacks to multiple switchboxes. Just a few of the older systems require an RF switch connection. The unit in the center of the wall is a standard entertainment center, but the console rack next to it is one of my first custom shelving projects. Custom work is the only way to go when you're trying to pack as much in as possible....good luck!

Rich

[sheath]

I set mine up so that the controllers are always plugged in, and everything's ready to go. I describe everything in detail here:

http://roomofdoom.powweb.com/gallery2/main.php?g2_itemId=264487


This is awesome! I am bookmarking this and saving it for future reference.

[JSoup]

Dammit I wish my house wasn't so damn small, I'd love to build nice rooms like those. That lovethyshelf blog is making my OCD eat my brain.

[Emperor Megas]

I like to keep my set up really clean, and clutter free.

http://img202.imageshack.us/img202/6780/gameroomfront03.jpg

I built my own cabinet and shelfs out of plywood and MDF. I'm not very experienced at making cabinets, but they're really simple, so they only took me a few hours each to make. The shelves on the cabinet unit can be slid out to vent the consoles, and to dust easily. I also run all of the wires into the wall behind the unit. I really hate seeing wires and cords. Here's what it looks like without anything in it:

http://img90.imageshack.us/img90/6167/consolecabinet.jpg

My entertainment center cabinet and shelves are all just 28" high, so they aren't very cumbersome or overwhelming. I have sloped walls in my game room, so it was important to have a storage solution that took advantage of the all the limited space available.

http://img38.imageshack.us/img38/9641/selectore.jpg

I have all of the main consoles I play hooked up via 2 A/V selectors (and HDMI for the modern ones) which are tucked away behind the cabinet, and labeled. I usually just set any additional system I wish to play on top of the cabinet since there's free A/V port on the side of the television.


Dammit I wish my house wasn't so damn small, I'd love to build nice rooms like those.My space is limited as well. I have the whole attic to use as my game room, but the awkward walls limit the amount of usable space -- still, I managed to build storage that holds tons of games. I think that having low and shallow storage, rather than tall, deep bookshelf style shelves, helps a lot when you don't have very much room and want/need to keep it (relatively) minimal.

http://a2.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs587.snc3/30961_114062855300775_100000911844950_82519_216097 9_n.jpg

http://a8.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs587.snc3/30961_114095221964205_100000911844950_82572_157078 7_n.jpg

http://a3.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs567.snc3/30961_114095231964204_100000911844950_82574_401172 9_n.jpg

[jrokshady]

i set mine up so that the controllers are always plugged in, and everything's ready to go. I describe everything in detail here:

http://roomofdoom.powweb.com/gallery2/main.php?g2_itemid=264487



http://i698.photobucket.com/albums/vv349/orion_pimpdaddy/copyofsetup2.jpg

epic!

[JSoup]

I like to keep my set up really clean, and clutter free.

http://img202.imageshack.us/img202/6780/gameroomfront03.jpg

I built my own cabinet and shelfs out of plywood and MDF. I'm not very experienced at making cabinets, but they're really simple, so they only took me a few hours each to make. The shelves on the cabinet unit can be slid out to vent the consoles, and to dust easily. I also run all of the wires into the wall behind the unit. I really hate seeing wires and cords. Here's what it looks like without anything in it:

http://img90.imageshack.us/img90/6167/consolecabinet.jpg

My entertainment center cabinet and shelves are all just 28" high, so they aren't very cumbersome or overwhelming. I have sloped walls in my game room, so it was important to have a storage solution that took advantage of the all the limited space available.

http://img38.imageshack.us/img38/9641/selectore.jpg

I have all of the main consoles I play hooked up via 2 A/V selectors (and HDMI for the modern ones) which are tucked away behind the cabinet, and labeled. I usually just set any additional system I wish to play on top of the cabinet since there's free A/V port on the side of the television.

My space is limited as well. I have the whole attic to use as my game room, but the awkward walls limit the amount of usable space -- still, I managed to build storage that holds tons of games. I think that having low and shallow storage, rather than tall, deep bookshelf style shelves, helps a lot when you don't have very much room and want/need to keep it (relatively) minimal.

http://a2.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs587.snc3/30961_114062855300775_100000911844950_82519_216097 9_n.jpg

http://a8.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs587.snc3/30961_114095221964205_100000911844950_82572_157078 7_n.jpg

http://a3.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs567.snc3/30961_114095231964204_100000911844950_82574_401172 9_n.jpg

Oh, hey, I like those! It's nice to know that a small amount of space is manageable for large collections. I've been thinking for a while about cleaning out my office space and putting up a set of inexpensive 4x4 shelves. At the moment, I've got a shelve bolted to the wall that was once part of a waterbed.

[Emperor Megas]

Oh, hey, I like those! It's nice to know that a small amount of space is manageable for large collections. I've been thinking for a while about cleaning out my office space and putting up a set of inexpensive 4x4 shelves. At the moment, I've got a shelve bolted to the wall that was once part of a waterbed.Thanks. And yeah, it really works out for me because my shelves don't come out any more than about 7 or so inches from the wall, giving them sort of an inset look/feel. I have close to 2000 games in there, but there's really no congestion at all. Being able to paint the shelves to match the room helps them blend in more into the background, too. I am nearing shelf capacity for my current collection in that room, but there's a closet behind the television wall to store more stuff, and another room upstairs that I have yet to outfit for gaming. If I didn't have sloping walls I could easier have made my shelves a little higher, and stored another few thousand games without it consuming the whole room (not that anything's wrong with a packed room, if that's what someone is shooting for).

My suggestion to anyone who needs a storage solution for their games or consoles is to try to find a balance between capacity and visual appeal, and don't rule out building your own. My home made shelves where far cheaper than any commercial solution I've seen, and I was able to customize them to my needs and taste (like not having to see exposed wires everywhere).

A/V selectors are your friend as well. Even if you don't want to hook every/most of your consoles up at the same time, which I'll admit is a little extreme, it's still a great time saver for your few most played systems. Also, making little labels for cables is a great organization tip. Labeling a bunch of wires that all look alike with identifying markers makes them a lot easier to deal with.

[sheath]

The only problem I found with selector switches is the potential for increased cable length. I stumbled on the negative effect this was causing when I hooked my Genesis 2 up with a straight cable and noticed how much less "muddy" the graphics looked.

$10 on Monoprice later I had enough 3ft Composite cables to eliminate the problem.

I had been using 10ft cables to daisy chain multiple switcher boxes into my main box to my TV.

Other than that I wouldn't own more than two consoles at once without switcher boxes.

[Zapf]

http://www.synapsepc.com/Hosting/Images/Computers/HTPC/Consoles.jpg

Where are the consoles plugged in on that shelf - is there a built in power strip?

[NaturalChemical]

My entertainment center cabinet and shelves are all just 28" high, so they aren't very cumbersome or overwhelming. I have sloped walls in my game room, so it was important to have a storage solution that took advantage of the all the limited space available.

That's an excellent setup you have. I'm wondering, how big is that room? Those pics make it look larger than I suspect it is.

[Emperor Megas]

That's an excellent setup you have. I'm wondering, how big is that room? Those pics make it look larger than I suspect it is.Thanks! I believe the room is about 15' long and 13' across. The ceiling is only about 6'5" high.

Here's a link (http://www.digitpress.com/forum/showthread.php?t=144325) to a thread from last year that shows more of it. It's a lot more full now, but nothing has overflown beyond the shelves.

[chrisbid]

the best ready-made solution for several dozen consoles is a large metal baker's rack. if you are playing your games on a small or medium sized television, you can also place it on the rack.


and a question for the ultra-clean rooms, where do you store controllers? a separate bin or series of bins eats up even more real estate where space is limited.

[Emperor Megas]

the best ready-made solution for several dozen consoles is a large metal baker's rack. if you are playing your games on a small or medium sized television, you can also place it on the rack.


and a question for the ultra-clean rooms, where do you store controllers? a separate bin or series of bins eats up even more real estate where space is limited.My wireless controllers (PS3 and 360 controllers) are usually on a shelf that isn't filled to capacity. I also have a black hard case that used to be a carry case for a rental SEGA Saturn unit (one of those with the foam placeholders, but the foam has been removed); I keep most of my common controllers in it.

http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/8642/case01k.jpg http://img717.imageshack.us/img717/5749/case02l.jpg

It's stored away in a closet in my gameroom, which also offers more storage. There are also bins in a separate area of the attic where my game room is to store surplus peripherals, swag, etc..

There are also ottomans that double as storage bins which is a pretty good solution for those with limited space in their game room.

http://www.coffeetableottoman.com/images/leather-storage-ottoman-22.jpg

[General_Murdock]

I'm having a hard time keeping my electric power ok with my consoles.

And plugging all of them into a single television but looking to this thread I can see some ways to have it all working together.

So what is this:

http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/5682/copyofsetup2.jpg

?

Are those 2 boxes above the tv a rca selector ?
Is there a rca selector for like 10 connections and with remote control ?

What are those things where seems all the power plugs are going ?

[Orion Pimpdaddy]

I'm having a hard time keeping my electric power ok with my consoles.

And plugging all of them into a single television but looking to this thread I can see some ways to have it all working together.

So what is this:

?

Are those 2 boxes above the tv a rca selector ?
Is there a rca selector for like 10 connections and with remote control ?

What are those things where seems all the power plugs are going ?

Ha! You went Madden on my setup.

If you look at one of my earlier posts, you'll see a link that takes you to a summary of my setup. Everything is explained there, including a diagram of how my system selectors are set up.

[WanganRunner]

I leave 90% of my consoles in the boxes at any given time.

I have a Home Theater PC, and so I usually emulate anything older than a Dreamcast.

There are a couple spare slots on the switchbox, so if I really have a boner to bring up the Saturn and play for a few days, I can do it.

[jperryss]

There are also ottomans that double as storage bins which is a pretty good solution for those with limited space in their game room.

I have one of these for my controllers (except for the big ones like the NES Advantage, those are on the game shelf). Works great.

[sheath]

I have a Home Theater PC, and so I usually emulate anything older than a Dreamcast.


If that is for personal play time, fine. Please just do_not write any reviews based on your play time by this method exclusively.

[gameofyou]

I have it a little easier with only two systems (Saturn & N64).

http://www.gamingenterprisesinc.com/temp/ManCave1.JPG

[General_Murdock]

Ha! You went Madden on my setup.

If you look at one of my earlier posts, you'll see a link that takes you to a summary of my setup. Everything is explained there, including a diagram of how my system selectors are set up.

my friend! your room, my dream!

I've posted in a technology forum here in Brasil requesting if there is anything like the Technical Pro Circuit Breaker PS-S9 to buy here.
If there is not I'll have to import 2 of them.

The gamestop switch box is also great with the front buttons for selection.

How much does that little extension cables to hook big box costs ?

[frogofdeath]

I have it a little easier with only two systems (Saturn & N64).
Your N64 boxes look so shiny! Just the lighting or did you do something to the boxes?

[VACRMH]

I have it a little easier with only two systems (Saturn & N64).



3 Saturns? US, JP and Modded? I don't see any PAL games there. I thought I was bad with 2! :D

[sheath]

How many Saturn games need a PAL system? I only own Wipeout 2097, but I was thinking of snagging the PAL version of Street Racer instead of the Jp one.

[gameofyou]

Your N64 boxes look so shiny! Just the lighting or did you do something to the boxes?

I think it is just the combination of the lighting & the camera flash. It would have probably turned out better if I took the picture at a slight angle.

[gameofyou]

3 Saturns? US, JP and Modded? I don't see any PAL games there. I thought I was bad with 2! :D

USA Saturn(with toggle switch), JPN Derby Stallion Saturn, and JPN White Saturn.

I don't own any PAL games, only NTSC (USA & JPN). I know there were a couple PAL exclusives, but I don't remember what they are now. But Wipeout 2097 DID come out in Japan (it was called Wipeout XL), so I have the JPN version of that game.

[lazyhoboguy]

What a great thread. I manged to get 7 systems hooked up to power, tv, and controllers but it was extremely hard since my room is small. One day I know I will have many more systems to deal with. Once I move into a bigger place I need to get some shelves.

Also, Orion Pimpdaddy please never take your pictures and explanation off the internet lol. I have it bookmarked for when I know I will be referencing it in a few years.

[Xtincthed]

I had about 10 consoles connected a year ago and it was a big mess of cables and switches.. so i decided to only have those connected i really use a lot, and connect the other ones when needed

so at the moment only my ps2, ps3, wii and xbox 360 are connected.. and that's not a big mess :)

[WanganRunner]

If that is for personal play time, fine. Please just do_not write any reviews based on your play time by this method exclusively.

Reviews?

I don't write reviews for anything.

[Higher Power]

Great thread. Great collections guys! Congrats.

I like to keep my retro stuff "eyes only" in my loft. With the exception of my girlfriend, sister and two best friends no one knows what I keep in these drawers:

(All connected, ready to play and far away from light & dust)
http://img580.imageshack.us/img580/3258/p230211095801.jpg
http://img691.imageshack.us/img691/2299/p230211095803.jpg
http://img340.imageshack.us/img340/6053/p230211095901.jpg
http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/7650/p230211095904.jpg
http://img62.imageshack.us/img62/3181/p230211100102.jpg
http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/2676/p2302111003.jpg







Consoles/games that you see I use daily for my own pleasure. I also own all the consoles released in the past 30 years (including most portables & test consoles) completely factory sealed and stored away to be auctioned off in a couple of decades time as well as hundreds of factory sealed games. Snes mostly.

My old man started collecting back in the days of ZX Spectrum and soon started buying 2 copies of everything good that came out. I followed in his footsteps. We have since moved 9 times in 4 different countries and everything is still intact.

[FxMercenary]

I like to go for the late 80s "Living Room" look!

http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc184/fxmercenary/Game%20Room/ngr4.jpg

http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc184/fxmercenary/Game%20Room/GR4.jpg

http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc184/fxmercenary/Game%20Room/ngr5.jpg

http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc184/fxmercenary/Game%20Room/ngr1.jpg

[Eleuthria]

Consoles/games that you see I use daily for my own pleasure. I also own all the consoles released in the past 30 years (including most portables & test consoles) completely factory sealed and stored away to be auctioned off in a couple of decades time as well as hundreds of factory sealed games. Snes mostly.


Now there's an investment I can get behind. I only recently began hunting down CIB copies of games for my own collection of vintage games. I haven't been able to make myself buy sealed copies though. It just feels wrong to have great games stuck inside a box with no way to play them. Plus at this point, there's no telling if it's a reseal with a different game inside.

[c0ldb33r]

neat collection photos, i like how neat and clean they look.

But if you keep your ps2/gc/dc is drawers, won't they overheat?

[Compute]

I really like the idea of keeping the consoles in dresser-drawers. One could even have flip-down fronts on some of the drawers for the front-loading systems. My house is really dusty, so I may have to start looking for dressers on CL.

[HYB]

You guys have really neat solutions. I only keep 4 consoles ready at a time, and even then I have a terrible mess of wires. I really like the setup that Emperor Megas has because it's just so clutter free. Since I'm only a student I use my living room to house all my games and books, and I'm just lucky that the ceiling is so high. I have two Ikea Billy shelves and one of their glass cabinets to hold my stuff. Books and comics are running out of space so I need to get something else to hold stuff. So far all my games have fit the Billy shelf but my collection at around 300 cib games is starting to push it, only a few more dvd cases will fit. It's nice to be able to store the boxes on top of the shelves, but as of next year I'm going to have to start looking for alternate solutions. If I happen to move in with my current boyfriend, his cat is going to bring down all of our stuff, not to mention he has even more comics than me and his dvd+game collection is around 200 as well. That and with two dogs, an older one and a new puppy, it's going to be a nightmare. I probably need to start looking at wall mounted stuff that will fit games more snugly, it's pretty bad that I can't afford, let alone build custom shelves myself :/.

[JSoup]

Personally, I'm not worried about having my systems on display, I tend to only keep two hooked up at any given moment, with anything else I might wish play with not far away. I'm mostly interested in showing off my games and a few random collectibles.

[camarotuner]

http://i655.photobucket.com/albums/uu277/camarotuner13/2011-02-24_19-11-27_769.jpg

Just did this the other day after buying a very large 50 dollar power strip at lowes. The shelving is simple 1x12 cut to length. The backing piece was miscut (hence the gap in the boards) and I really don't feel like fixing it so I'll just live with the gap. Nice having everything "good to go" whenever. Also stole the one posters idea (thanks for the idea, btw) of keeping the controller plugged in and just wrapped up sitting on the system so that's how I have everything. Now to add to my collection of systems...