Will they ever go back to carts?

[leatherrebel5150]

DO you think any company will ever go back to using carts? I know that carts have many short falls in what can be done on them, but I think that forces the game designers to come up with better quality games.

It seems like alot of games put out today focus on graphics and other things other than a really deep storyline combined with quality gameplay. I know there are exceptions out there but it really seems to me that the industry focuses on how real they can make your enemy look in their next first person shooter installment.

I just think that a company were willing to take the risk of using carts again they could end up producing some really good games.

Another note, I would like to see carts come back just so I know my collection will be around for awhile, and I wouldn't have to worry about cd rot.

[joshnickerson]

The industry appears to be slowly moving towards digital distribution (sadly), in another ten years they won't be even using discs anymore, much less carts.

But yeah, I understand your analogy. The most creative ideas can come from having limited resources and learning to work within those restrictions. I could care less about being able to see the pores on some shmuchk's skin in a FPS...

[Emperor Megas]

There's practically nothing you can do on a more expensive cart that you can't do on a modern console that uses disc media. Any benefits over discs that carts offered yesterday (no loading time, extra RAM) are non-issues today, and discs will always be cheaper to manufacture than cartridges.

The only new systems I can see still using carts will be niche media players like those little key chain ones that use to play music videos a few years ago that used DS style chip carts.

Other than that, carts will probably only be utilized by retro revival home brew projects for vintage game systems.

[kedawa]

I wouldn't call load times a non-issue. They're still pretty awful, and so are mandatory installs.

Although it's not exactly the same as the old mask ROM carts, flash memory will be used increasingly, at least on handheld systems.

Personally, I'd love to see a really high end console with a PCIe based cartridge slot that could accommodate cartridges with a wide range of functions. Everything from SSD storage to GPU upgrades would be possible.

[Tupin]

Keep in mind, there are many people who don't have the absolute fastest Internet connection available, and that alone will hold off digital distribution for a while.

Flash memory will get even cheaper, and it seems like an alternative to disc based media.

[Emperor Megas]

I wouldn't call load times a non-issue. They're still pretty awful, and so are mandatory installs.I'm talking about games comparable to anything that they would produce on cart. I took the original post to mean that he preferred more 'scaled down' productions that focus more on game play and less on superficial things like high end visuals and superfluous CGI cut scenes. I'm saying that you can scale down the production of a game on a disc all the same. That you don't need artificial restrictions like a more limited form of media (carts) to scale down the production of your games.

[Edmond Dantes]

I'd say the closest will get to a cart revival is if games start being sold on USB drives.

Otherwise:

Short answer: No. Long answer: NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO....

[MASTERWEEDO]

disc based games make you buy a new game once the disc gets a lil messed up....which the console can do, carts are damn near indestructible.

[Parodius Duh!]

pirates in hong kong are still using carts....

[Emperor Megas]

disc based games make you buy a new game once the disc gets a lil messed up....which the console can do, carts are damn near indestructible.While it's a given that cartridges are studier than discs, I can't think of any games I've personally messed up, save a few SEGA CD games that we practically used as coasters because I didn't care about them back in the day (and still don't).

I can't see any console manufacturers going back to carts for the sake of sturdier media anymore than going back to analog tape and 8 tracks encased in hard plastic shells instead of audio CDs.

The only future for cartridges is in early childhood consoles like Leapster, and even that's going to be phased out in time.

[jrokshady]

Handheld systems might go for it.

[drmay]

The NPG (PSP2) has no UMD drive but slots for cartridge based games.

[SegaAges]

Keep in mind, there are many people who don't have the absolute fastest Internet connection available, and that alone will hold off digital distribution for a while.

Flash memory will get even cheaper, and it seems like an alternative to disc based media.

I am going to have to agree with this one. I can easily see it turning into flash based and digital distro only

Shit, the N-Gage used MMC's for their games, so why not use some type of media in that respect to push games out?

[The 1 2 P]

Like cassette tapes and vhs movies, carts are not coming back. They will remain a relic of our youth and something that the children of tomorrow will think are some outdated form of legos.

[Enigmus]

One on hand: the dropping price and reliability of flash memory may make this possible, with the first one to use it for a home system either being Nintendo or Microsoft.

On the other: Blu-Ray discs have higher memory storage than flash-based media right now and have better scratch-proofing, meaning that they would be an ideal media for the next generation. After the next, we may see a major usage of flash-based, with digital distribution secondary to it.

[skaar]

I'm waiting for retailers to get kiosks to sell DLC on removable drives... only way to get massive games to people without the downloads.

Think about it - if you can bring the HD from your XBOX into the store and just copy over 5-6 games at once?

Not so bad.

They'll never do it anytime soon - they'd have to dumb it down way further.

[The 1 2 P]

I'm waiting for retailers to get kiosks to sell DLC on removable drives... only way to get massive games to people without the downloads.

Think about it - if you can bring the HD from your XBOX into the store and just copy over 5-6 games at once?

Not so bad.

They'll never do it anytime soon - they'd have to dumb it down way further.

Both Microsoft and Nintendo have already experimented with this. During the first few years of the 360 you could take a memory card up to retail kiosks to download demos and a few in-game items. And Nintendo use to let you(not sure if they still do) wirelessly download demos and in-game items for the different versions of the Ds. While this is a few steps down from a full game download it's atleast a step in the right direction for what they might be able to do in the future.

[Orion Pimpdaddy]

Yes, cartridges will make a comeback when solid state memory becomes more afforable. It'll make discs look primitive in terms of storage capacity.

The move toward all digital may never happen, since it didn't work on the PSPGo.

[Edmond Dantes]

I really doubt "all digital" is going to happen. There's just too many things wrong with it--not the least of which is that most people like feelies.

[jordandavid]

Right now I'm gonna say No. Cartridges are a thing of the past. :deadhorse:

[homerhomer]

This would be like asking for older Music mediums to come back. In some ways they have. Today I went into a Record/Vinyl only store and and it was hoping. Most of this music could have been bought off iTunes or Amazon in digital format for the same price if not cheaper.

I have recently gotten back into Vinyl because I like the Artwork along with the music. I recently bought a used copy of "Kool And The Gang" on Vinyl and it's awesome. While Listening to it's the best part, the Artwork really makes it something to be proud of owning. For this reason, I like it's better than just a digital copy.

I agree that the industry is moving towards digital distribution buy I have also noticed that newer games that are easily available with online, like Super Mario 1,2,3 Wii collector's edition sold out this last years holiday and where selling on ebay for 3 to 4 time the original price.

Because of this I see more non-digital distributed video games in the future. With fancier packaging.

Besides, can you imagine getting a new video as a child in digital format. Sure you'd be excited but not like unwrapping it and holding it in your hands.

[gameofyou]

Cartridge is still a great format for handheld systems because:

1) More reliable (no moving parts / motors)
2) Less power consumption (no moving parts / motors)

[kupomogli]

I don't think we need carts any longer. They're far too expensive in comparison to discs and a lot of developers have been able to develop well enough to where load times aren't an issue any longer.

Take games such as the Uncharted series, Ys Oath in Felghana PSP, Rockstar North games, Dante's Inferno, God of Bore 3, etc. These games have either no load times or incredibly short load times, so short load times are possible on disc based games.

When it comes to the amount of data available. Having less data available will give limitations to force developers to work around it. However, having limitations on a system is a double edged sword. You have some developers that make some pretty amazing games by working around the limitations, but most developers won't put forth the extra effort.

[leatherrebel5150]

I'm talking about games comparable to anything that they would produce on cart. I took the original post to mean that he preferred more 'scaled down' productions that focus more on game play and less on superficial things like high end visuals and superfluous CGI cut scenes. .

Exactly right, to me it seems to be a race for the most realistic game rather than having the best game, it seems to be the modern equivlant of the bit wars.


"Besides, can you imagine getting a new video as a child in digital format. Sure you'd be excited but not like unwrapping it and holding it in your hands.

This is a big part of it to, the feeling of having something tangible, to hold and be proud to show off might bring the cartridge in limited ways.
for instance, with classic gaming becoming more and more popular, I could see the likes of nintendo reproducing certain collectors carts kind of like playstation does with its "geatest hits" games.

I just see carts have an all around advantage in the durability category. Like I said in the first post I don't have to worry about disc rot or scratching the game because carts are built like tanks. In fact that is what keeps me from collecting any cd based game console because I know that the games themselves are probbaly nearing the end of their life and will start to fail just because of age. So it seems like a waste because most of the games won't be around for my kids to play and enjoy so whats the point.

As for the gaming industry going all digital, I don't really see it happening as fast as it did with the music industry. It comes back to the tangible asset thing, mush more fun to open a game on christmas than it is to get a card saying "hey I bought you a gift catd to download games with.

[Icarus Moonsight]

The most successful portables never abandoned the format.

Carts have uses today and will also in the future. It used to be that disks were smaller... Well, shoe's on the other foot on that one now. Production cost of flash media is reducing and will continue along with expanding the upward bound limit on storage. Solid state will forever be better than optical... The real issue is cost and benefit.

[retroman]

i agree we my see sd cards or usb drives for future media, and yes sadly downloadable games will most likely end up being the way to go...but i hope not..i like to have a copy in my hand..

[Edmond Dantes]

The idea of digital-only distribution seems to be a popular idea among internet geeks... but they tend to have a skewered perception with a great deal of tunnel-vision involved (IE they think that because they're so aware of the internet that everyone else is, not realizing they're actually a niche community).

I would say games won't go all-digital for at least fifty years.

[Frankie_Says_Relax]

Um ... I can not for the life of me wrap my brain around the notion that a game designer somehow gains some higher level of creative ability based solely on lower size limitation of the game media.

Last time I checked, regardless of how large a game cartridge, disc or downloadable file is there is no requirement that a game fill some percentage of that space.

If a game developer wanted to release a game that only takes up 35KB of space on a Blu-Ray disc where a 50GB Blu-Ray is the proprietary format of the system that the game is developed for ... why would that be a problem?

Sure, at that size, the game would probably make for a better downloadable title, but this romanticized concept that games are "better" (or more creatively developed) because they're on a 100KB cartridge isn't much different than saying that music sounded better on 8-Tracks or that food tastes better when its home-cooked. (And yes, I'm well aware that there are people who will argue such things to their graves ... but it still doesn't change the fact that it's ultimately nothing more than a romanticized attachment to a specific media/delivery type.)

Good games are developed by good developers, size limitations of any given storage media are only that - limitations. A good game designer can easily transcend any limitation be that too little space or too much, which I suppose is being perceived here as some sort of limitation.

I don't believe that having near-unlimited resources in terms of space makes any difference when it comes to good games. If a designer wants to make a minimalist product nothing is stopping them.

But, to your address question, interesting to note, Sony's NGP is ditching the UMD and will be releasing games at brick&mortar on Memory Sticks.

[Rev. Link]

I would love to see the next generation of consoles use some kind of flash media designed to look like a cartridge.

[buzz_n64]

I would love to see the next generation of consoles use some kind of flash media designed to look like a cartridge.

The only way I would see this happening is special edition flash media for a portable system like the 3DS stylized to look somewhat like a GB or NES cart. Either that, or a new system made for retro style games.

[kupomogli]

Um ... I can not for the life of me wrap my brain around the notion that a game designer somehow gains some higher level of creative ability based solely on lower size limitation of the game media.

Valkyria Chronicles 2 couldn't have maps that were the same scale of maps on Valkyria Chronicles for PS3, they had to break them into smaller sections, like map A and map B. This isn't anything to do with disc space, but either RAM or the processor couldn't handle it.

While Frankie didn't bring this up, another thing is that games really don't require near as much data as people think they do. You take a look at a game like Crisis Core. Over half the disc space is probably all the FMV that you see every time you turn a corner. The title screen itself is a couple minute FMV, as soon as you start the game there's a few minutes here, then again, and then again shortly after. There are times where the ingame graphics would legitimately require a second disc but usually not really required. Some multidisc PSX games have all the data on a single disc. Go out and swap the Xenogears disc in the middle of the game. You hit a story sequence and it reads it from whatever disc that's inserted, however, if you hit an FMV sequence it will crash.

[jordandavid]

The real issue is cost and benefit.

The real issue is cost and benefit.

The real issue is cost and benefit.

The real issue is cost and benefit.

The real issue is cost and benefit.
This.

[Flack]

Article today on Kotaku discussing the future of SSD in consoles.

http://kotaku.com/#!5778450/sixty+year-old-technology-could-change-the-face-of-gaming

[wingzrow]

A DVD costs, what, TWO cents to make and 3 cents to print right? Until a better alternative that costs the same or less rolls around, dvd based systems will stay for a long time.

[Casati]

Probably not, but I much prefer buying used carts versus discs on Ebay since a typical "mint" disc has scratches.

[Rob2600]

The move toward all digital may never happen, since it didn't work on the PSPGo.


I really doubt "all digital" is going to happen. ... I would say games won't go all-digital for at least fifty years.

The iOS and Android platforms are 100% digital (no physical media) and are extremely popular. So yeah, it's actually happening right now.



Besides, can you imagine getting a new video as a child in digital format. Sure you'd be excited but not like unwrapping it and holding it in your hands.

People receive (and therefore, unwrap) iTunes gift cards all the time.

[Darkman2K5]

The iOS and Android platforms are 100% digital (no physical media) and are extremely popular. So yeah, it's actually happening right now.




People receive (and therefore, unwrap) iTunes gift cards all the time.

Those are different circumstances. Digital makes sense for smartphones because no one is going to make physical gaming media that plugs into a phone. Of course iTunes gift cards are popular, its the number music digital distribution platform. I don't think the market will ever be all digital. There seems to be a different expectation for digital games vs. retail games. You don't expect a $5 Xbox Live arcade game to stack up against a $60 retail disc game.

Thats not to say there aren't quality digital only games, I just mean that its a different market. I can see how digital distribution would make sense as far as the instant gratification factor goes, but when it comes to gamers, I think the vast majority prefers having an actual product on their shelf. I mean, look at Digital Press, its built around an entire community of gamers who are like that.

[Rob2600]

Those are different circumstances. Digital makes sense for smartphones because no one is going to make physical gaming media that plugs into a phone.

Not all iOS and Android devices are smartphones. (iPod Touch, iPad, Galaxy Tab, Xoom, etc.)

Like it or not, 100% digital devices are here and are popular.

[Leo_A]

Things like flash memory and USB drives will never approach the cost of optical media. We're never going to see a cartridge like format ever appear on a home console again.

They only exist on handhelds because of the special benefits they offer for a portable (Reduced power consumption, shorter load times, physical size, increased durability, etc.). None of those is of any critical importance to home consoles so there's no reason to go with such media that cost many times more per gig of space than a DVD or Blu-Ray disc cost.

They're never going to approach the cost of optical media, it's as simple as that.

[Frankie_Says_Relax]

Those are different circumstances. Digital makes sense for smartphones because no one is going to make physical gaming media that plugs into a phone. Of course iTunes gift cards are popular, its the number music digital distribution platform. I don't think the market will ever be all digital. There seems to be a different expectation for digital games vs. retail games. You don't expect a $5 Xbox Live arcade game to stack up against a $60 retail disc game.

Thats not to say there aren't quality digital only games, I just mean that its a different market. I can see how digital distribution would make sense as far as the instant gratification factor goes, but when it comes to gamers, I think the vast majority prefers having an actual product on their shelf. I mean, look at Digital Press, its built around an entire community of gamers who are like that.

I am one of many lifelong gamers that have been a part of the gaming (and physical game collecting) communities since the earliest generations of home gaming who resents being told that digital-download-only gamers are somehow a "different segment/market" of the gaming world.

While there are plenty of gamers that are arbitrarily showing resistance/denying the validity of that segment of the market, there's also plenty of overlap between those who enjoy buying games on physical media and those who enjoy buying digitally.

Prior to the iOS App Store and the Android Marketplace even existing - Steam had several years of wild (and continuing) success as a digital distribution market and not many people ever seemed to complain about the lack of physical media/packaging there.

[Darkman2K5]

I am one of many lifelong gamers that have been a part of the gaming (and physical game collecting) communities since the earliest generations of home gaming who resents being told that digital-download-only gamers are somehow a "different segment/market" of the gaming world.

While there are plenty of gamers that are arbitrarily showing resistance/denying the validity of that segment of the market, there's also plenty of overlap between those who enjoy buying games on physical media and those who enjoy buying digitally.

Prior to the iOS App Store and the Android Marketplace even existing - Steam had several years of wild (and continuing) success as a digital distribution market and not many people ever seemed to complain about the lack of physical media/packaging there.

This is very true to a certain extent. The point that I was trying to make is that people expect different types of games for digital distribution. Smartphone games are nowhere near the quality of Arcade titles for example.... at least right now. Steam makes a killing because they have great sales, like $60 for 3 ubisoft games. When they have those deals, I jump on them without hesitation, however I don't feel that I should pay $59.99 for a digital only game when the retail package is the same price.

[WanganRunner]

NGP will effectively use "carts", basically just a flash card.

[The 1 2 P]

however I don't feel that I should pay $59.99 for a digital only game when the retail package is the same price.

When and if consoles ever go digital only, I would never buy a download only game for that price. I'm sure that the console makers will still try it just to see if they can get away with it but it won't work on me. That said, digital only for consoles most likely won't happen for another few decades(atleast) for all the reasons that others have said. Beyond the segment that prefers physical media, theres still download speeds to take into account. Not everyone has high speed yet and even those that do don't have the most idea setup, so when downloading 5 to 10 gigs it still takes some people atleast half a day.

[EricPlaysGames]

In short, my answer is no.

Right now, I think that companies would really try to push some sort of micro port communication/storage device (Like a small USB drive) or some sort of high-speed card (Like a CF card, SD card, etc.), before they would ever even attempt to go back to using carts on a mainstream level.

Not saying they would/should do any of this - It just seems like something they would do, in my opinion.

I totally agree with the concept of what you're saying though. I think the passion that video game developers and designers have today is either lacking (Milking a popular game just for money) or is focused on something completely different than what really made video games amazing and playable in the first place... But I don't think the fact that a game being put on a cart is what made/makes a game great. Although, having no loading screens was/is pretty great to me!

All my opinions, of course, and I'm sure many will disagree. Anyway, interesting topic and thanks for initiating it!

[EricPlaysGames]

NGP will effectively use "carts", basically just a flash card.

I'm looking forward to NGP! That thing looks amazing!