What Are Some Systems And Portables That Should Have Been More Sucessful?

[xDragonWarrior]

What Are Some Systems And Portables That Should Have Got More Attention than they did. For systems,i would say the Dreamcast. Great games,awesome graphics,and it's made by sega.

and For Portables i would say the Lynx,Neo Geo Pocket Color,and Swancrystal.

Lynx Pros: Hardware Scalling,Spectacular Graphics. Cons:a Few games and the system wasn't that popular.

Neo Geo pocket Color Pros:Thumb Stick,Nice Fighters,Amazing battery life Cons: Unbalanced Variety or games(Most of games are fighters) which is okay but Balance it out.

Swancrystal Pros:Clear Screen,good D-pad for fighters,Nice selection of Anime games,(Naruto,Dragonballz Etc.)can display more characters on screen than Gameboy Advance(Judgement Silversword). Cons:only released in japan,wasn't that popular there.

[Edmond Dantes]

I was kind of partial to the Game Gear.

Pros: First portable to provide color and backlighting. Was also the most ergonomic (is that the right word?) portable of the day (the gameboy kinda hurt my hands, the Game Gear never did).

Cons: Sucked batteries like nothing else, making the Power Back almost necessary, and to be honest I can't remember what all games it had, outside of various Genesis tie-ins like Sonic and Shining Force, and I seem to recall it also having ports of the RPGs that the Puyo Puyo characters are from. No real "killer apps" for the system.

(Speaking of the power back, is it possible to mod the thing so that it uses Li-Ion instead of NiCad? That's pretty much the whole reason my powerback no longer works)

[Robocop2]

I've always had a special place in my heart for the Lynx. Sure it was a power hungry giant brick of a system but I still remember enjoying just about every game I ever played on it.

[tom]

Atari Lynx should have been more successful.
The good games vs bad games ratio is also excellent, as the Lynx has approx 80% of great titles.

N-Gage is up there too, so many great games.

Atari Jaguar should have deserved more success, and better and more coders.

[Lady Jaye]

Atari 7800. Had it come out circa 1984, it would have had a chance to succeed.

[xDragonWarrior]

I was kind of partial to the Game Gear.

Pros: First portable to provide color and backlighting. Was also the most ergonomic (is that the right word?) portable of the day (the gameboy kinda hurt my hands, the Game Gear never did).

Cons: Sucked batteries like nothing else, making the Power Back almost necessary, and to be honest I can't remember what all games it had, outside of various Genesis tie-ins like Sonic and Shining Force, and I seem to recall it also having ports of the RPGs that the Puyo Puyo characters are from. No real "killer apps" for the system.

(Speaking of the power back, is it possible to mod the thing so that it uses Li-Ion instead of NiCad? That's pretty much the whole reason my powerback no longer works)

You should be able to Mod it to use Li-Iron instead of Ni Cad but im not sure.
if your interested this link will show you how to mod a Gamegear where it increases the Battery life 8 Hours !http://xantufrog-games.blogspot.com/2009/05/game-gear-led-backlight-mod.html

and just to let you know the Gamegear wasn't the first with Color,it was the Lynx.FYI

[Yoder]

LOL Get ready to see some wikipedia content from a famous Sega-16 member... Or is it infamous?

[Mr_Tricorder]

I was kind of partial to the Game Gear.

Pros: First portable to provide color and backlighting. Was also the most ergonomic (is that the right word?) portable of the day (the gameboy kinda hurt my hands, the Game Gear never did).

Cons: Sucked batteries like nothing else, making the Power Back almost necessary, and to be honest I can't remember what all games it had, outside of various Genesis tie-ins like Sonic and Shining Force, and I seem to recall it also having ports of the RPGs that the Puyo Puyo characters are from. No real "killer apps" for the system.

(Speaking of the power back, is it possible to mod the thing so that it uses Li-Ion instead of NiCad? That's pretty much the whole reason my powerback no longer works)
I loved my Game Gear when I was growing up, although I didn't vote for it in this pole for two reasons.

1) While it never really beat out the Gameboy despite being the more capable device with an impressive library of good games, I remember it having a relatively successful run and no other portable non-Nintendo system was ever able to match its level of mainstream acceptance until the PSP.

2) The two weakest points about the Game Gear were significant problems that rightfully kept it from ever being able to overtake the Gameboy. Pricing a portable system in the same range as home consoles is never a good strategy, and battery life was even more critical of an issue back in that era of disposable batteries, bulky and expensive Ni-Cad alternatives, and adaptors being sold seperately.

I voted for The Master System and the Dreamcast because they are both excellent systems for their eras without any glaring flaws and both have a healthy library of great games. Unfortunately, they were both victims of the market of their respective times. The Master System never received the attention it deserved in the US because of Nintendo's aggressive business tactics that prevented Sega from ever gaining a good foothold until the rules changed, while the Dreamcast suffered mainly from Sega's missteps with previous hardware causing the industry as a whole to lose faith in Sega's ability to properly support their systems.

[Mr_Tricorder]

Atari 7800. Had it come out circa 1984, it would have had a chance to succeed.

Due to the Video Game Crash of 1983, there was no video game market in 1984 for the Atari 7800, which is why the system was shelved after it was developed and then released a few years later as a reaction Nintendo revitalizing the whole industry in the US. By that time, Warner Communications had already sold Atari's arcade division to Namco and had mismanaged the Atari hardware division into the ground.

The 7800 could have been a huge success if released by a healthy company in an equally healthy industry, but neither of those existed in it's tech-level era.

[xDragonWarrior]

I loved my Game Gear when I was growing up, although I didn't vote for it in this pole for two reasons.

1) While it never really beat out the Gameboy despite being the more capable device with an impressive library of good games, I remember it having a relatively successful run and no other portable non-Nintendo system was ever able to match its level of mainstream acceptance until the PSP.

2) The two weakest points about the Game Gear were significant problems that rightfully kept it from ever being able to overtake the Gameboy. Pricing a portable system in the same range as home consoles is never a good strategy, and battery life was even more critical of an issue back in that era of disposable batteries, bulky and expensive Ni-Cad alternatives, and adaptors being sold seperately.

I voted for The Master System and the Dreamcast because they are both excellent systems for their eras without any glaring flaws and both have a healthy library of great games. Unfortunately, they were both victims of the market of their respective times. The Master System never received the attention it deserved in the US because of Nintendo's aggressive business tactics that prevented Sega from ever gaining a good foothold until the rules changed, while the Dreamcast suffered mainly from Sega's missteps with previous hardware causing the industry as a whole to lose faith in Sega's ability to properly support their systems.

You forgot about the Screen Problems like the Screen Blur and the Sound problem that many people have where the Sound seems not to work after a while.im lucky. i had mine for about 6 to 7 years and the sound can STILL go to MAX Volume.

[Lady Jaye]

Due to the Video Game Crash of 1983, there was no video game market in 1984 for the Atari 7800, which is why the system was shelved after it was developed and then released a few years later as a reaction Nintendo revitalizing the whole industry in the US. By that time, Warner Communications had already sold Atari's arcade division to Namco and had mismanaged the Atari hardware division into the ground.

The 7800 could have been a huge success if released by a healthy company in an equally healthy industry, but neither of those existed in it's tech-level era.

I know that, but already had it run against the Colecovision instead of the NES, it would have had a standing choice.

Of course, another what-if scenario is if Atari actually distributed the Famicom in the US (the 7800 would not have existed at all), but that's for another thread.

[Sysop]

You forgot about the Virtual Boy!

[Mr_Tricorder]

You forgot about the Screen Problems like the Screen Blur and the Sound problem that many people have where the Sound seems not to work after a while.im lucky. i had mine for about 6 to 7 years and the sound can STILL go to MAX Volume.

I didn't factor in the screen problems because at the time that's just how LCD screens were and it wasn't that big of a deal. Besides, most games seemed to deal with it reasonably well enough. The original Gameboy screen was equally as horrible. It's blurring problems may not have been as severe, but the lack of detail inherent to that type of cheap monochrome display makes it the worse display and is only forgiven because of the Gameboy's lower price point and considerably longer charge on fewer batteries.

Also, I didn't factor in the sound problems because at the time most of the units still worked. We didn't really learn about the capacitor issue until the end of its run.

EDIT: I believe that if Sega had scrapped the Nomad and instead taken a cue from Nintendo and developed a smaller, sleeker, more battery-efficient Game Gear with a sharper display (like the Gameboy Pocket), then the Game Gear would have a much longer and better run.



You forgot about the Virtual Boy!

I actually own a Virtual Boy and, while I enjoyed playing it, it definitely doesn't deserve any better of a run than it got.

[Sysop]

I actually own a Virtual Boy and, while I enjoyed playing it, it definitely doesn't deserve any better of a run than it got.
It was a shame that it literally ended the career of Gunpei Yokoi though.

[Lady Jaye]

It did not literally end his career, as he worked on the Wonderswan before he died, but if you mean his career at Nintendo, yeah.

[Sysop]

It did not literally end his career, as he worked on the Wonderswan before he died, but if you mean his career at Nintendo, yeah.
I should have been descriptive in my post, and I apologise. I was indeed referring to his Nintendo career.

[Frankie_Says_Relax]

LYNX

It's library has SO many great Atari/Midway arcade ports and the technology behind the system was way way ahead of its time.

[sheath]

I voted for everything, because this is a troll thread and if all of these platforms had seen greater success the Industry would be more interesting today.

[tom]

The SMS was in Europe more popular than the NES.
So, should the NES have had more attention in Europe?

[sheath]

Nah, the market was basically insignificant. ;)

Actually, more attention for the NES in the UK and Europe would have been a good thing too. The NES just didn't need more games for all the extra attention.

[MrMatthews]

How funny! DragonWarrior spams the hell out of these forums, too!

And on topic, Neo Geo Pocket Color should have been more successful.

[Phantar]

I think the Nomad should/could have done better, if they just had put more thought in its design: It was too bulky, and it sucked batteries like nothing else. The screen is alright IMO, though.

Think about it: a full-color 16-bit handheld console, that already had a huge (800+) library of games upon release? And which you could connect to a TV and play with another player, too? In 1995, no less.

I think had Sega not officially discontinued the Mega Drive altoghether (whereupon no new games were produced), and if they haf made it a bit less bulky and with a more intelligent way of handling the power source (the battery pack was huge and cumbersome as heck), I think SEGA could have been on to something. As it was, it just dropped like the brick it was.

[Famidrive-16]

I really think the 3DO could've done so much better if it didn't get populated by FMV crap. The system was actually really damn powerful for it's time.

[Edmond Dantes]

Hmm, I just now noticed that "Sega CD" was an option. I do wish it had been more successful.

Pros - Allowed greater storage space for games. A few interesting, off-beat (or at least uncommon for the time) games like Lunar and the world's only English version of Snatcher. Redbook audio. Internal RAM for save games (though you'll still need a cart eventually). Still has a fan community today. One of the first consoles where you could make backups of games (though nine tenths of the time those backups don't work).

Cons - At the time it was pricey for being basically an add-on. Makes the Genesis really bulky. Sega didn't do much with it and mostly tried to impress us with FMV games, which actually weren't very impressive. Requires its own power supply. Most of the games that weren't FMV games were multi-console (though to be fair sometimes the Sega CD version had unique features, like The Adventures of Batman and Robin having FMVs done in the style of the television show). And mainly it was still a sixteen-bit console, meaning that whatever bells and whistles the extra space allowed, you couldn't make any games on the Sega CD that couldn't just as easily be done on the Genesis (except the FMV games, obviously, which is probably why Sega pushed them so hard).

In short, the Sega CD would've probably been better if Sega hadn't made the Genesis first. Still, I'm happy to have one, and most of the time when there's both a Genesis and a Sega CD version of a game, the Sega CD version is better, so I'm happy to make allowances for it.

Now if only I could find a cheap copy of Lunar...

[gamegenie]

everyone hates on xDragonWarrior, can't you all see that he's just full of "teen spirit".


and the system that should have been more successful from that list I think is the Dreamcast.

[sheath]

Edmond Dantes,

Actually Chilly Willy thinks the Sega CD could have been used to push SVP quality 3D games on the Sega CD thanks to the fast 68000 and the Graphics Coprocessor/ASIC/Blitter. Also, Adventures of Batman & Robin was also a totally unique driving game with more sprite scaling than Batman Returns' driving scenes.

[Baloo]

I think among the systems listed here, the Dreamcast, Saturn, and Neo Geo Pocket Color definitely had a chance for success.

The Dreamcast had an excellent launch, but after the tarnish of the SEGA system franchise with the Saturn, 32x, Sega CD, plus the fact that you could just burn games to CD-Rs and played them kind of sent the system into an early grave. Not to mention the PS2 launch.

The Saturn was the biggest marketing failure probably in the history of video games. The system was hard to program for, but had some excellent games regardless. However, Sega didn't continue any of their former IPs on the Saturn, and the US response to the system was so lukewarm that it just died. Personally it's my favorite system, very underrated. Has a lot of excellent games today still. But boy did it crash.

And the NGPC could've been a big contender to the Game Boy, it had some awesome games and was pretty powerful for a handheld. Comparing say Match of the Millenium on NGPC to Street Fighter Alpha on Game Boy Color shows what the system was made of. Shame it wasn't taken farther, I really like it.

[noname]

If I'm the only one who talks about the WonderSwan other than xDragonWarror, then so be it.

The WonderSwan was doomed right from when Gunpei Yokoi died, for reasons that I will explain later. Just a year later, the Gameboy Color was releaed, and that made the WonderSwan color obsolete, which was released another year later. The GBC's release also prompted the release on the Neo Geo Pocket Color that same year. Only a moderate number of games were released before the WonderSwan Color came, which, fortunately enough, had more games. And then, just a few months after the release of the WSC, the Gameboy Advance game, and that was the death knell for the WonderSwan, with Bandai's answer, the SwanCrystal, did not do anything at all.

Now, for the system itself. One of the WonderSwan's greatest strengths was the fact that some games could be played horizontally, and some vertically. It added more genres for the WonderSwan. Examples of games that used the vertical mode were GunPey (Bandai's answer to Tetris), Rainbow Islands (which, from what I heard, was a bit flawed), as well as Tetris itself. That's one point that xDragonWarrior missed. And there's one point that xDragonWarrior shouldn't have said, which is the abundance of Japanese Animation franchise titles. It was another strength, as many would buy such games, but it was a weakness as well, as most of JAF titles were bad and uninspired. No matter how hard they try, they are not going to match up to those few gems, such as Riviera, GunPey, Judgement Silversword, Dicing Knight Period, Wild Card, and Blue Wing Blitz. Which leads to my last strength, the well known Final Fantasy remakes. They were decent enough, but they failed in saving the WonderSwan due to Square going back to Nintendo on the release of the Gameboy Advance. If only there was more third-party support, and had Gunpei Yokoi live, the WonderSwan could have lived for many more years to come.

There was some more flaws, like the placement of the power button on the original WonderSwan. And some flaws as well with xDragonWarrior's points, like...


good D-pad for fighters

Sammy released an accessory called the WonderCoin for Guilty Gear Petit, which is a fighter, to improve controls. One person did say the following. "Playing this kind of game isn't that easy using the Wonderswan controls, as many of the moves require diagonal movements, and as you know, the Wonderswan doesn't have a standard D-pad, but instead had 4 directional buttons."


can display more characters on screen than Gameboy Advance(Judgement Silversword)

That's because Judgement Silversword pushed the Wonderswan to its limits. As a result, with too much "characters," with the bullets being the main problem, the game experiences slowdown. I bet that the Gameboy Advance, if programmed correctly, can do that and will not experience such a thing. That's just a bet though, so I may be right, or I may be wrong.


wasn't that popular there.

But it took 8%. 8%! That was still a large number, to be honest, since Nintendo unfairly had all of the handheld world to itself.

[Corey_GB]

Obviously, I think the the Dreamcast could have taken the PS2 on and won...if it only had that damn dvd drive. :D

But another system that I feel was never as successful as it could have been was the Atari Lynx. From a hardware standpoint this thing destroyed the Game Boy and Game Gear. It had all the bells and whistle of the day - scaling and rotation of sprites, backlit display, etc. But...it also had the lackluster Atari games. Now, I will say I enjoyed Electrocop, Blue Thunder, Rampage and Ninja Gaiden...they just needed more in order to contend with the likes of Sega and Nintendo.

[Corey_GB]

The Saturn was the biggest marketing failure probably in the history of video games. The system was hard to program for, but had some excellent games regardless. However, Sega didn't continue any of their former IPs on the Saturn, and the US response to the system was so lukewarm that it just died. Personally it's my favorite system, very underrated. Has a lot of excellent games today still. But boy did it crash.

You nailed it with the issue being a marketing failure. Come on, Sega did a surprise launch to the retailer. I'll never forget that call from my local Babbages, "A shipment of Sega Saturns just arrived, do you want us to hold you one?" You can just drop a system into the market, you have to spend the time to inform potential customers of the new platform.

[sheath]

I should have added that the somebody elses kept publishing that Sega had ruined or tarnished their image for the entire Dreamcast lifetime.

I doubt anybody would be consistently repeating that phrase today if not for so many publications marketing the idea so successfully.

[Hugh Mann]

No love for Sega 32X? Were it not for Sega of America's inept leadership it could and should have been more successful than it was, though still not a runaway success.

Also, Apple Pippin.

[sheath]

The real problem is that most sources say the 32X was a runaway success at launch and for several months after. Then somebody screwed up, probably SoA, by saying that the Saturn would be held back in the US in favor of the 32X. Once it was clear that wasn't going to happen there was no saving the 32X with public relations.

Secondarily to that, let's say that 1 million die hard gamers and Genesis owners bought a 32X (that number is probably very high), and then ultimately 2-3 million bought the Saturn in the US. The mass market is in the tens of millions. Did one or two million people go around warning everybody away from Sega after they bought these systems? Most people I have talked to managed to find amusement from these delinquent Sega products. More than a few even enjoyed playing the games made for both platforms.

So, with whom was Sega's image tarnished by the Sega CD, 32X or Saturn? Current evidence suggests it was with a handful of developers, some of which wanted a one console market (EA especially), and the loudest gaming magazines.

It's like a few pebbles starting an avalanche, doubts sound more convincing than the alternative.

[kupomogli]

Dreamcast and Sega CD. Where is the TG16 and TG16 CD?

Aside from other consoles, I personally believe that the 32X killed the Sega CD. The Sega CD got very little support to begin with, what with Nintendo aggressive tactics and the Turbo Grafx 16 CD still available. Then once developers got word of a new Sega system, why would they bother continue developing for the Sega CD.

The Sega CD even though short lived was a great system(not as short as the 32X though.) Unfortunately most of what the system got was FMV game after FMV game. Like the TG16CD, it really showed what CD quality could do to 16bit games. You only need to take a look at games like Snatcher, Lunar, and Lunar 2, which not only have beautiful CD quality audio but are also fully voiced, to games like Dark Wizard on the Sega CD or Rondo of Blood on the PC Engine that have better audio quality for the games.

At the time cartridge technology was expensive which is why all the later systems capitalized on CD technology. I think that if the Sega CD, as well as the PC Engine, got more developer support mainly by Nintendo not being such douchebags then these two systems would have flourished. If the 32X wasn't ever announced, the Sega CD would have also did much better.

[kedawa]

The Dreamcast and NGPC are the only ones on that list that I think could have done better. Both are great pieces of hardware that were held back by bad business decisions and a lack of proper promotion.

[Nebagram]

Dreamcast, obviously.

I also went for SMS, because despite it handling itself quite well against the NES where I'm from, most people just remember it as 'Sega's futile attempt to take on Nintendo', rather than 'Alex Kidd, Phantasy Star, Wonderboy, Castle of Illusion, Lucky Dime Caper, Golden Axe Warrior...'

[turbofan1]

I voted the Sega cd.Even though I have no idea what the swan crystal is. Final Fight is the only good game for the system.The two lunar games are overrated.The fmv games were terrible.Back in the day I wasted two hundred dollars on this piece of junk.

[kool kitty89]

I was kind of partial to the Game Gear.

Pros: First portable to provide color and backlighting. Was also the most ergonomic (is that the right word?) portable of the day (the gameboy kinda hurt my hands, the Game Gear never did).
You're forgetting the Atari Lynx, a year ahead of the GG, or more than a year if you go by the US release date. ;)





Atari Lynx should have been more successful.
The good games vs bad games ratio is also excellent, as the Lynx has approx 80% of great titles.
Of course, the genres are rather limited, and IF it had been really popular, the good to bad ratio would probably like every other major platform (game boy, DS, 2600, NES, Genesis, SNES, PSX, PS2, etc, etc).

Having a LOT of games and (especially) a lot of shovelware that sells reasonably well is usually a major sign of mass-market success. ;)



Atari Jaguar should have deserved more success, and better and more coders.
More like it needed to be marketed/managed by a company in a reasonably healthy financial/market position. (which Atari hadn't been in the US since 1991 -and even their European computer market had been killed off by '93)







Due to the Video Game Crash of 1983, there was no video game market in 1984 for the Atari 7800, which is why the system was shelved after it was developed and then released a few years later as a reaction Nintendo revitalizing the whole industry in the US. By that time, Warner Communications had already sold Atari's arcade division to Namco and had mismanaged the Atari hardware division into the ground.

The 7800 could have been a huge success if released by a healthy company in an equally healthy industry, but neither of those existed in it's tech-level era.
Umm, most of that is wrong. The crash had the market down (nonexistent in some regions), but it wasn't GONE at the time. Launching in '84 also would have given time/positioning to cut into some Japanese licenses prior to Nintendo's total lock-in contracts, or at least prepare better for western support alone.

The 7800 WOULD have been released in 1984 if Atari Corp had stayed under Morgan (who had been making huge strides in reforming the company in early/mid '84 with his very promising NATCO reorganization plans). Actually, the plan had been to introduce both the 7800 and 2600 Jr in fall of '84 and also release the planned "MICKEY" project (Amiga based game console), but Amiga defaulted on the contract (lied about the chips not working and then returned their loans with interest -which some hapless Atari employee cached prematurely and made the situation more confused).

What happened was that Warner had been attempting to sell Atari Inc to get the debt off their books, but noone was willing to take it on the terms Warner wanted. In the beginning of July, Warner re-opened negotiations with TTL (Trammel Technologies LTD) with a new, more favorable (but more limited) sale proposal that involved liquidating Atari Inc entirely and spinning off the coin-up division (and staff) as Atari Games while transferring the consumer division (and related assets, but not staff -all of whom Warner laid off) to TTL, which was then renamed Atari Corp.

That in itself wasn't the main problem, the problem was the way Warner went about the transition.
Atari Inc upper management (including the president, James Morgan) were not notified or consulted on the liquidation negotiations or planning (Morgan was literally called in at the last minute to sign the contracts). Morgan certainly knew of Warner's plans to sell Atari, but nothing of their drastic shift to liquidation.
No Atari Inc staff had been given notice about layoffs, and to make matters worse, the deal with TTL had gone over during 4th of July weekend with hapless staff coming to work to find they had no jobs. (again, Warner had laid off 100% of staff -unlike the often cited claims of Tramiel handling lay-offs, TTL/Atari Corp was hiring, they weren't firing ;))

Warner's mismanagement of the split of Atari Inc left the remains of the company in total chaos and pretty much destroyed all of Morgan's reorganization efforts, as well as leaving Trameil with a huge mess to work through. (and additional problems of not having properly detailed trasitional plans -much of the sale was vaguely defined and left a lot to interpretation, leading to some litigation, including the Atari Corp vs Atari Games dispute)


Now, back to the 7800 specifically: one of the things Warner had failed to map out was the 7800/MARIA/launch game R&D contracts with GCC. Those contracts had all been with Warner directly, not Atari, and Warner insisted additional payment (or rather payment to GCC) after the fact of the Atari consumer sale. That led to delays and ongoing negotiation until early 1985, when Tramiel finally relented and agreed to pay GCC.

At that point, Tramiel also began courting Michael Katz to market/manage the entertainment side of Atari's products, and Katz joined Atari Corp with the concession that a new "Electronic Entertainment" division be created.
It was at that tim in '85 that Katz attempted to license Japanese arcade games for Atari and found that pretty much all major Japanese developers were locked-in with Nintendo. (he thus made the decision to rely primarily on US computer game developers instead -not sure why they didn't push for European developers)

In mid '85 you saw a major pick-up in 2600 sales and the introduction of the Jr late that year (which they sold out of completely due to initially limited volumes). In early 1986, the 7800 was finally released and gradually moved nationwide. (unlike Nintendo, it hadn't been a test market, but just a gradual expansion due to limited resources -the NES had ended up failing with the test market in late '85 and they weren't seen as much at the January '86 CES, but that spring they expanded their test markets significantly, and released Super Mario Bros -I think the Control Deck was launched at that time too- and Nintendo had far more positive results at that point, to the extent of being taken seriously by the June CES in '86, and of course, the September '86 US launch -the Christmas sales season really solidified it for them though)


Also, the 7800 and NES ARE in the same technical generation (actually the 7800 was designed almost a year later than the Famicom), but the hardware is certainly very different. (and the limited support of the 7800 meant it got rather mediocre software that rarely pushed its strengths)


One could also argue that Atari shouldn't have released the 7800 at all (especially Atari Corp with the conflict issues, but even arguable for Atari Inc to some extent). With Atari Inc, you had the A8 and 5200 to work with already, and the 5200, while flawed, was largely fixable (cost effectiveness, controller issues, bulk, etc could all be addressed rather easily -much of it should have been by mid/late '83 if they'd been managed right). The 5200 shouldn't have been released as it was either, but after it was already out there with a couple million units sold, there was a lot more reason in trying to "fix" the problems after the fact. (though Atari's REAL problem was overall management, and especially the screwed up distribution system giving falsely high demand/sales figures -the main cause of the "glut" in '82/83 -things like Pac Man, ET, the 5200, etc were merely symptoms of their underlying problems)
-With Atari Corp, you already had the 5200 formally discontinued (so re-releasing it would be tricky, though they DID continue to publish new games up to 1987 as it was . . . ), but a better option may have been to do something like the XEGS (more like a consolized 600XL that was directly compatible but somewhat cut-down -like a cheap/minimalistic membrane keyboard/keypad with an expansion port for a full one, etc). Given the software/management support with the 7800 and the existing (and continuing) software/development for the 8-bit computers, that could have made a lot of sense. (plus, they had tons of stockpiled A8 components, full parts commonality with the computers, and -in hindsight- the advantage of having a game "computer" with the defining features -namely a keyboard- that could bypass Nintendo's lock-in licensing contracts ;))

There's no doubt that a 1984 launch by Morgan's Atari Inc would have been far better than what ended up happening. (much better organization, funding, market position, lack of competition, etc)



Of course, another what-if scenario is if Atari actually distributed the Famicom in the US (the 7800 would not have existed at all), but that's for another thread.
It made perfect sense for Warner (back in early 1983) to be hesitant with the totally untested (still prototype-only) Famicom at the time. The way they demonstrated it was not especially impressive, and the only games planned at launch were ones already released on competing US consoles/computers.

The real issue would have been finding a way to counter Nintendo's illegal* (monopolistic) exclusive licensing contracts before they got out of control. It would have been difficult to influence Japan, but a stronger western market could have gone a long way towards breaking that. (the fact that Atari Corp was the only major western console seller in the US at the time and that they had very limited marketing resources really hurt that though -of course Nintendo had a full 2-3 year head start with Japan on top of that -Sega had competitive marketing budgets, but apparently terrible management in the US -the opposite in Europe)
Before the split, Atari Inc had been in a far more stable market/financial/managerial position in general; a 1984 7800 launch by THAT Atari would have meant somethign very different. (it's unclear what Tramiel might have done in the context of a clean transition of Atari Consumer to TTL, but Warner's actions obviously turned that into a total mess)


Aside from my speculation on the 5200/A8, the historical info is summarized from things Marty Goldberg and Curt Vendel have brought to light on Atari history. (there will eventually be a series of book published, but currently most of it is buried in Atariage threads ;) -there's a lot on Curt's Atarimuseum site too, but many -if not most- of those articles need to be updated)




I really think the 3DO could've done so much better if it didn't get populated by FMV crap. The system was actually really damn powerful for it's time.
FMV/Multimedia was a staple of the market at the time, and it DID sell. (hell, it was a huge part of what made the PSX so popular -albeit with refined/evolved successors to the earlier multimedia efforts, except a few examples WERE the same kind of "FMV" you saw on the 3DO/MCD/PC in the early/mid 90s)

The main problem with the 3DO was just the market model being all wrong. It was an experiment to be sure, so understandable, but it was wrong nevertheless. (razor thin software licensing fees and complete outsourcing on hardware production while selling for considerable profits)
Had 3DO partnered solely with Panazonic, pushed a razor and blade business model (substantial software profits/licensing royalties with hardware sold at cost -Sony pushed that to below cost with the PSX later on), things could have been far different. (and, of course, aimed at a low-cost form factor from day 1 -closer to the FZ-10)
They also probably should have launched in Japan first and then in the US. (lower initial price point, more games etc -Japan is far more tolerant to new tech at high prices with limited support, plus the US was in a video game market slump at the time)

The other problems with the 3DO is that the hardware is rather wasteful and inefficient (large, older process 1 micron chips without buffering, a full 1 MB of VRAM mainly used as a framebuffer -so most games would practically have only used about 300 kB), and it also wasn't especially powerful compared to the PSX or Saturn (or even Jaguar in some respects -Jag is far better for 2D, but better for 3D as well in some areas). It used quads rather than triangles for polygons (like the Saturn), had serious bus contention problems (GPU and CPU fighting over main RAM when texture mapping -or for 2D "sprites" and BG layers).

However, the overall performance was OK for the time, and much of the cost inefficiencies could be addressed with later revisions consolidating the chips. (the VRAM would still remain wasteful though)

Then there's the programming interface: while the 3DO had some good high-level libraries (one of the major points to the PSX's success), developers were forced to ONLY work at high level and ONLY using 3DO's own libraries. No low-level documentation was provided for better optimization or customized programming libraries. (pretty much the exact opposite problem with the Jaguar and Saturn)







Pros - Allowed greater storage space for games. A few interesting, off-beat (or at least uncommon for the time) games like Lunar and the world's only English version of Snatcher. Redbook audio. Internal RAM for save games (though you'll still need a cart eventually). Still has a fan community today. One of the first consoles where you could make backups of games (though nine tenths of the time those backups don't work).
Don't forget the hardware scaling and rotation (actually more of a flexible blitter that can also be useful for texture mapping in 3D -a few games did that too), the 8 channel Ricoh PCM synth chip, and the 12.5 MHz 68000 coprocessor.

So, in combination of the mass storage (and significant chunk of RAM to make it useful -much more than the limited Super CD, let alone CD-ROM2), there's a ton that could be done that wasn't possible on the MD (without a separate add-on), and much more that would be cost ineffective for the time.



Most of the games that weren't FMV games were multi-console (though to be fair sometimes the Sega CD version had unique features, like The Adventures of Batman and Robin having FMVs done in the style of the television show).
That game was a Sega CD exclusive (totally unrelated to the Genesis one which was totally unrelated to the SNES one, just sharing the same name -like comparing Aladdin on the SNES vs Genesis/Amiga/PC -the latter 3 being true cross-platform games).

So, if you stretch "multiplatform" like that, then yes, there's a LOT of non-exclusive games. ;)

FMV wasn't really bad (Sega was hardly the main ones pushing it either), it did sell and it did end up ushering in "real" multimedia gaming in the following generation. (technically much of the "FMV" on the MCD could be lumped in with the way many PSX games used it)

I will say that Sega (of America at least) didn't diversify marketing enough (ie balance more with the wealth of genres on the platform), and not packing Sonic CD in standard was a mistake. (of course, there's a ton of other missed opportunities like the lack of cheap/free demo discs, cart+CD hybrid games -or carts with CD expansion, FAR more ports of normal MD games to the CD format -with minimal to substantial enhancements- with a marketing push promoting the lower cost of the CD versions allowing the CD to "pay for itself", compilations, and -especially- much better Japanese developer support -especially from Sega of Japan; part of that is the "more MD ports" but it's also the general lack of SoJ development support the system saw overall -few original games, no ports of the many scaling arcade games that could utilize the hardware, etc, especially early on -pretty much noting Sega published or developed in Japan for the first 2 years of the system in Japan -rather ironic that SoJ pushed much harder for the 32x right out of the gate, including some of those scaler games ;)

Another problem was that they never released a low-cost Duo system. (something that should have been possible to push for about $300 in 1993 -around the time the model 2 came out- and perhaps $200 by late 1994)



And mainly it was still a sixteen-bit console, meaning that whatever bells and whistles the extra space allowed, you couldn't make any games on the Sega CD that couldn't just as easily be done on the Genesis (except the FMV games, obviously, which is probably why Sega pushed them so hard).
Plenty the Genesis couldn't do: all that CPU, video, and sound resource added, and the mas storage (and RAM) allowing games not practical on the plain MD.
And even for games that could be done on carts, the CD versions could be much cheaper for similar (or higher) profit margins. ;)


In short, the Sega CD would've probably been better if Sega hadn't made the Genesis first. Still, I'm happy to have one, and most of the time when there's both a Genesis and a Sega CD version of a game, the Sega CD version is better, so I'm happy to make allowances for it.
Without the Genesis, the CD would have gone nowhere, it needed the Genesis as the foothold to get into the market. (except maybe in Japan where the MD's market share was low in general)






Edmond Dantes,

Actually Chilly Willy thinks the Sega CD could have been used to push SVP quality 3D games on the Sega CD thanks to the fast 68000 and the Graphics Coprocessor/ASIC/Blitter. Also, Adventures of Batman & Robin was also a totally unique driving game with more sprite scaling than Batman Returns' driving scenes.
It probably wouldn't be pushing flat shared polygons as fast as the SVP (limits on how fast the 68k can handle 3D math compared to the SVP's DSP), but you would have the ASIC to speed up rasterization to a fair extent. (more significant would be the assistance for texture mapping -albeit 16 colors- of the ASIC, and pushing scaled/rotated "sprites" as well)

There was also the topic I started (now lost I assume) on Sega-16 about possibly using the ASIC to accelerate doom/wolf3D type ray-casting games (or possibly voxel engines) by rendering sideways (since the ASIC renders lines) and then rotating the full frame to the desired position and completing any additional line fills needed in that position.


Also, if you filled the "hole" in the MCD's main weakness for 3D (fast calculations) with a SVP/etc add-on cart module, you could have CD games with the best of both worlds. (closer to 32x games, but with more color limitations)








I should have added that the somebody elses kept publishing that Sega had ruined or tarnished their image for the entire Dreamcast lifetime.

I doubt anybody would be consistently repeating that phrase today if not for so many publications marketing the idea so successfully.
I think the initial marketing push solved that problem for the public, but still left developers more iffy. (Sony's hype was a bigger problem in general though)

Of course, you also had the DC never doing well in Japan, being poorly managed in Europe, and a general mix of odd decisions that led to its cancellation.





Dreamcast and Sega CD. Where is the TG16 and TG16 CD?

NEC totally dropped the ball with the TG-16. Here was a company with massive corporate funds and a following in Japan's console market, vertical integration, and pretty cost effective hardware to boot, but they managed to ruin all of that with poor marketing in the US and no European release at all.

NEC (more or less) had the potential to be the "Sony" of the 4th generation: cheaper hardware with vertical integration and slashed margins on top of that, massive investment in saturation marketing in the US, heavy investment in building up western marketing/management divisions in general, pushing hard for western software support (possibly buying up some exclusives or even buying out some developers), etc, etc. Then doing all of that for the CD/Duo as well.

Though, that might not have been a good thing either: NEC could have ended up stifling Sega and Nintendo on the market like Sony later did, but perhaps if NEC had more moderate success it would have garnered a more competitive market in general. (then, again, unlike with Sony, you had Sega and Nintendo with generally more competitive market positions at the time, and better management/marketing/positioning -at least on Sega's end, so it may have ended up differently either way)

[Damaramu]

Interesting. I was reading a great interview that Bitmob did with Bernie Stolar a few years back on the Dreamcast's 10th Anniversary in regards to his time at SEGA and the Dreamcast. For those who hadn't read this by now, here's an excerpt concerning the Dreamcast's untimely demise:


Bitmob: If we could send you back in time, with the benefit of hindsight, what would you do to make the Dreamcast survive and thrive?


Bernie Stolar: It’s called money. And a commitment from the company.

When [former Sega President Hayao] Nakayama was pushed out of the company, the company really changed.

Bitmob: How so?

BS: The heart and soul of Sega came from him, and he really believed that software drove hardware -- which is true. He also believed that if you’re going to be a major competitor in the gaming world, you needed to own the hardware platform.

Bitmob: So what did Sega do wrong after you guys left?

BS: When Nakayama was pushed out and when I was pushed out, I think what took place was, Mr. [Isao] Okawa, who then became the chairman of the company -- he was an investment banker from CSK [Holdings Corporation].... I don’t believe he was committed to the hardware. He just believed it should be a software company.


Bitmob: And that was ultimately the Dreamcast’s downfall....

BS: Yeah, the company didn’t put the money into it. The company basically abandoned the system.

At that time, it was the largest launch in the history of the industry! The consumer judged that it was the right hardware and the right software. Look at the software that was on that system. Look at the sporting titles that Visual Concepts built for the system -- after I bought Visual Concepts for Sega...those titles outsold EA’s titles. That tells you something about the software and the look, feel of the platform.

I fought to have a modem on the platform. Maybe it was early -- who knows. But I fought for a modem in the beginning because I wanted to have massively multiplayer online games on that system.


Bitmob: Could you see the Dreamcast struggles coming before you left Sega?

BS: No. When I was pushed out, I assumed that the company would continue [supporting the Dreamcast]. Mr. Okawa was very close friends with [Masayoshi] Son-san, who was the chairman of [tech investment firm] Softbank. They indicated to Mr. Okawa that if we have a modem put into the system -- we spend the extra money to put the modem in -- that we should just meld the hardware online and not go through retail...that we should just abandon retail.

So do I believe there could’ve been a turning point where they would abandon this? The answer is yes.

To this day, you still can’t abandon retail. Retail may have shrunk -- there may not be as many storefronts -- but retail’s the whole point. Look at what Best Buy’s doing. Look at what Wal-Mart’s doing. Look at what GameStop’s doing.

You can read the rest HERE (http://bitmob.com/articles/qaa-former-sega-president-on-dreamcasts-failure-pranks-against-sony-his-ouster)

[noname]

I forgot one more strength of the WonderSwan. The battery life, which was also forgotten by xDragonWarrior. As said on Wikipedia...


Battery life (in hours)
WonderSwan:
~30-40 hours playtime
WonderSwan Color:
~20 hours of game play
SwanCrystal:
~15 hours of game play

Behold the marvel of just having one AA battery! No doubt this was the work of Gunpei Yokoi.

[Breetai]

Wow, he got banned faster than I expected!
Why did he think this forum would be different? Annoying thread spamming is annoying everywhere.

[Kellhus]

Voted for the Swancrystal.

Really awesome handheld, I absolutely love the remake of Final Fantasy I for it. It's my favorite version of the game.

Yo Breetai, I'm on the RB forums. Just signed up here.

[retroman]

Dreamcast for sure...great games and graphics on par with compitition...Then i would say the Atari Lynx, when it came out its comp was Gameboy...Hardware wise, it killed GB, just didnt have the Nintendo name..

[kool kitty89]

Interesting. I was reading a great interview that Bitmob did with Bernie Stolar a few years back on the Dreamcast's 10th Anniversary in regards to his time at SEGA and the Dreamcast. For those who hadn't read this by now, here's an excerpt concerning the Dreamcast's untimely demise:

Bitmob: If we could send you back in time, with the benefit of hindsight, what would you do to make the Dreamcast survive and thrive?


Bernie Stolar: It’s called money. And a commitment from the company.

When [former Sega President Hayao] Nakayama was pushed out of the company, the company really changed.

Bitmob: How so?

BS: The heart and soul of Sega came from him, and he really believed that software drove hardware -- which is true. He also believed that if you’re going to be a major competitor in the gaming world, you needed to own the hardware platform.

Bitmob: So what did Sega do wrong after you guys left?

BS: When Nakayama was pushed out and when I was pushed out, I think what took place was, Mr. [Isao] Okawa, who then became the chairman of the company -- he was an investment banker from CSK [Holdings Corporation].... I don’t believe he was committed to the hardware. He just believed it should be a software company.


Bitmob: And that was ultimately the Dreamcast’s downfall....

BS: Yeah, the company didn’t put the money into it. The company basically abandoned the system.

At that time, it was the largest launch in the history of the industry! The consumer judged that it was the right hardware and the right software. Look at the software that was on that system. Look at the sporting titles that Visual Concepts built for the system -- after I bought Visual Concepts for Sega...those titles outsold EA’s titles. That tells you something about the software and the look, feel of the platform.

I fought to have a modem on the platform. Maybe it was early -- who knows. But I fought for a modem in the beginning because I wanted to have massively multiplayer online games on that system.


Bitmob: Could you see the Dreamcast struggles coming before you left Sega?

BS: No. When I was pushed out, I assumed that the company would continue [supporting the Dreamcast]. Mr. Okawa was very close friends with [Masayoshi] Son-san, who was the chairman of [tech investment firm] Softbank. They indicated to Mr. Okawa that if we have a modem put into the system -- we spend the extra money to put the modem in -- that we should just meld the hardware online and not go through retail...that we should just abandon retail.

So do I believe there could’ve been a turning point where they would abandon this? The answer is yes.

To this day, you still can’t abandon retail. Retail may have shrunk -- there may not be as many storefronts -- but retail’s the whole point. Look at what Best Buy’s doing. Look at what Wal-Mart’s doing. Look at what GameStop’s doing.


You can read the rest HERE (http://bitmob.com/articles/qaa-former-sega-president-on-dreamcasts-failure-pranks-against-sony-his-ouster)
I disagree with several of stolar's points.

Software DOES drive hardware, but not without marketing, and you need things to drive software too. 1st party support alone has almost never been enough to drive a console to major success on the mass market, it's always about getting comprehensive 3rd party support (usually with some significant 1st/2nd party stuff).

He was right about money, but Sega's funds were limited, so they had to be careful with what they worked with.
I personally think they squandered money on the DC unnecessarily in several areas -making the modem+browser free and back in with all models was a huge expense, investing in Seganet was something they couldn't afford (it didn't pay off in hindsight, for sure) they offered rebates and price drops more than necessary to drive sales, etc -internet should have been pushed, but not at such a costly angle . . . Sega should have learned from their mistakes with Netlink and HEAT -PC server- and been conservative enough to not make the model pack-in (ouside of special bundles) and used 3rd party ISPs alone rather than SegaNet; the price drops simply didn't help in most cases, the price was already extremely competitive, and dropping margins further simply put Sega at a bigger disadvantage. They probably could have kept it at $200 until the GC's launch and then perhaps drop to $150.

The biggest investment they made that they definitely couldn't afford to cut back on was marketing/advertising. That's the key in the US market, and if anything, that's where they could have risked it more to counter Sony's hype. (certainly would have been a better investment than dropping the price)


He also talks about Nakayma leaving, but, in general, Okawa seemed to bring a very positive shift to management compared to his 2 predecessors. (there's still a lot of speculation on exactly what went on in 1994-1997 on the management end, but it seems Nakayma -likely influenced by Japanese upper management- forced some significant mistakes for the company in the Saturn years -the Saturn's early launch being one of the most obvious and telltale; the 32x conflict likely had some miscommunication issues as well . . . except the 32x "problem" wouldn't have been nearly as bad if it had been managed tactfully with the Saturn positioned accordingly; the early Saturn launch made the 32x into a huge market/PR mess for Sega)
One could argue that Sega of Japan needed a shift in management long before Okawa became CEO. (of course, SoA had some problems too, but there's a lot of things indicating that Japanese interference really hurt the western markets -to the extent that SoA wasn't even given the opportunity to solve their own problems, and SoJ's "solutions" usually ended up exacerbating things -like the Saturn's rushed launch)

For a while I was skeptical whether SoJ really was the direct cause of the Saturn's rushed launch, but recently, Melf (Ken Horowitz) got some information from a Q&A session with Mike Lantham that directly pointed to SoJ upper management making the decision. (Latham's exact words were "SoJ from the top, 100%" iirc)


Also, from what I understand, Sega of Japan pulled the plug on the DC because they didn't feel confident in a machine that was only selling well in 1 major market (North America). The DC was failing in Japan and weak in Europe, and due to price drops, was still selling at a loss in most/all markets at the early 2001 discontinuation.
Japan was pretty much screwed due to Sony, Europe was a major botch job from SoE's marketing at the time, and the US managed to pull things off very well, but SoJ apparently didn't feel that was enough. (they halted production indefinitely in late 2000 and Moore made his official statement a couple months later)

Really though, given the DC's initial market in the US, it probably had the potential to become profitable in the long run (possibly within 2000/2001 if they'd been a bit more conservative in key areas), perhaps somewhat like the N64. (weak Japanese and Euro markets, but pretty strong US support)
It makes you wonder how it would have performed against the Xbox and GC. (PS2 would obviously have sold better regardless)

[Breetai]

Voted for the Swancrystal.

Really awesome handheld, I absolutely love the remake of Final Fantasy I for it. It's my favorite version of the game.

Yo Breetai, I'm on the RB forums. Just signed up here.
Cool!

[Famidrive-16]

FMV/Multimedia was a staple of the market at the time, and it DID sell. (hell, it was a huge part of what made the PSX so popular -albeit with refined/evolved successors to the earlier multimedia efforts, except a few examples WERE the same kind of "FMV" you saw on the 3DO/MCD/PC in the early/mid 90s)

The main problem with the 3DO was just the market model being all wrong. It was an experiment to be sure, so understandable, but it was wrong nevertheless. (razor thin software licensing fees and complete outsourcing on hardware production while selling for considerable profits)
Had 3DO partnered solely with Panazonic, pushed a razor and blade business model (substantial software profits/licensing royalties with hardware sold at cost -Sony pushed that to below cost with the PSX later on), things could have been far different. (and, of course, aimed at a low-cost form factor from day 1 -closer to the FZ-10)
They also probably should have launched in Japan first and then in the US. (lower initial price point, more games etc -Japan is far more tolerant to new tech at high prices with limited support, plus the US was in a video game market slump at the time)

The other problems with the 3DO is that the hardware is rather wasteful and inefficient (large, older process 1 micron chips without buffering, a full 1 MB of VRAM mainly used as a framebuffer -so most games would practically have only used about 300 kB), and it also wasn't especially powerful compared to the PSX or Saturn (or even Jaguar in some respects -Jag is far better for 2D, but better for 3D as well in some areas). It used quads rather than triangles for polygons (like the Saturn), had serious bus contention problems (GPU and CPU fighting over main RAM when texture mapping -or for 2D "sprites" and BG layers).

However, the overall performance was OK for the time, and much of the cost inefficiencies could be addressed with later revisions consolidating the chips. (the VRAM would still remain wasteful though)

Then there's the programming interface: while the 3DO had some good high-level libraries (one of the major points to the PSX's success), developers were forced to ONLY work at high level and ONLY using 3DO's own libraries. No low-level documentation was provided for better optimization or customized programming libraries. (pretty much the exact opposite problem with the Jaguar and Saturn)




*tucks tail between legs*

[tom]

Virtual Boy, should it been more successful? Whilst I love my VB, thanks to Dominick, it was just too weird for the normal gaming consumer.
I mean, pressing that huge thing against your forehead, playing the games in ....RED? Getting whoosey very quick! Quirky yes, mass market probability, no way.

The Game Cube should have been more successful, whilst not a failure as such, it did so bad, for example, in UK, stores gave the console away for free, when purchasing three GC games, just to get rid of the thing.
I also reckon the Game Cube has a great range of titles. More power to the Game Cube, Nintendos best console, imo.

[jammajup]

Quite a few machines on that list qualify to honest but as i was a video games trader 97-99 in the UK and over here i saw the Sega Saturn and Sony Playstation start off more or less level in game sales / part -x and then i watched the Saturn simply die and i have never understood how after the huge success of the Genesis/MD that such a thing could happen.To make things worse the people who still had faith in Sega after that were burned again with the Dreamcast.
There is only ever one good thing to come from such a quick death of a system and that is at a later time the system and its accessories can become desirable.

[retro junkie]

The Dreamcast and NGPC are the only ones on that list that I think could have done better. Both are great pieces of hardware that were held back by bad business decisions and a lack of proper promotion.

I totally agree. There was so much potential with both pieces of hardware. I so much would like to have seen the usual hardware cycle for both.

[sheath]

I disagree with several of stolar's points.
...

He also talks about Nakayma leaving, but, in general, Okawa seemed to bring a very positive shift to management compared to his 2 predecessors. (there's still a lot of speculation on exactly what went on in 1994-1997 on the management end, but it seems Nakayma -likely influenced by Japanese upper management- forced some significant mistakes for the company in the Saturn years -the Saturn's early launch being one of the most obvious and telltale; the 32x conflict likely had some miscommunication issues as well . . . except the 32x "problem" wouldn't have been nearly as bad if it had been managed tactfully with the Saturn positioned accordingly; the early Saturn launch made the 32x into a huge market/PR mess for Sega)

Combine that with Yu Suzuki describing Nakayama as the type of guy who would ship a game if he saw moving pictures on the screen, so he always kept glitched code handy to put on his screen when the boss walked his direction. That was in the recent 1up interview. I think Nakayama might be to blame for Sega's downfall in the West more than any other single factor. It is amazing that the Saturn, complete with its lack of development kits and being "hard to program," is Sega's only successful console in Japan.


One could argue that Sega of Japan needed a shift in management long before Okawa became CEO. (of course, SoA had some problems too, but there's a lot of things indicating that Japanese interference really hurt the western markets -to the extent that SoA wasn't even given the opportunity to solve their own problems, and SoJ's "solutions" usually ended up exacerbating things -like the Saturn's rushed launch)

I completely disagree with Stolar's impression of Okawa and I think he was just blabbing about superficial facts he knew about the man. All I know about Okawa is that he used hundreds of millions of his personal money to keep Sega afloat in late 2001 and he died of a heart attack a couple of weeks after the Dreamcast's discontinuation.


...
Really though, given the DC's initial market in the US, it probably had the potential to become profitable in the long run (possibly within 2000/2001 if they'd been a bit more conservative in key areas), perhaps somewhat like the N64. (weak Japanese and Euro markets, but pretty strong US support)
It makes you wonder how it would have performed against the Xbox and GC. (PS2 would obviously have sold better regardless)

The Dreamcast supposedly languished on shelves at half and then one third the price of the PS2 during Christmas 2000 in the US. That was printed by magazines that had notoriously predicted its demise for its entire lifecycle though, so that information is suspect until proven.

The sheer volume of people who I heard talking in 2000 about how great the PS2 was going to be, especially retail/rental clerks, tells me that there was definitely massive demand for the PS2. Also, I remember hearing numerous parents asking for the "Sony Dreamcast," and immediately noticed how closely one had to inspect Dreamcast jewel cases to distinguish them from PS1 games.

[Edmond Dantes]

That game was a Sega CD exclusive (totally unrelated to the Genesis one which was totally unrelated to the SNES one, just sharing the same name -like comparing Aladdin on the SNES vs Genesis/Amiga/PC -the latter 3 being true cross-platform games).

So, if you stretch "multiplatform" like that, then yes, there's a LOT of non-exclusive games. ;)

Oops :oops: My bad. I wasn't aware that each version of Adventures of Batman and Robin was a completely new game (guess that makes it somewhat comparable to TMNT Tournament Fighters right?)

[buzz_n64]

1) Dreamcast
2) Saturn
3) Neo-Geo Pocket Color
4) N64 DD Disk Drive -Not on list, and only released in Japan. Although I think it's mostly Nintendo's fault that it met an early and late demise.

[kool kitty89]

Combine that with Yu Suzuki describing Nakayama as the type of guy who would ship a game if he saw moving pictures on the screen, so he always kept glitched code handy to put on his screen when the boss walked his direction. That was in the recent 1up interview. I think Nakayama might be to blame for Sega's downfall in the West more than any other single factor.
I wonder if he had also hindered the Master System's success in the US. (or whether that was more an issue with SoA staff at the time -he seemed pretty open to Katz's plans to built-up SoA, so maybe it was just a matter of getting the right people there in the first place to spark that expansion -or they could have delegated things to a capable 3rd party marketing firm in the US instead, they had the budget -initially more marketing budget than Nintendo- but seemed to largely squander it)

I've seen claims of Nakayma being "out of touch" with the home console market compared to the arcade (trying to apply arcade type market strategies to the consumer market -there's some references to the 32x/Mars project stemming from that logic), but if that Yu Suzuki comment was inclusive of his arcade projects, it seems Nakayma wasn't especially good at that side of things either. (maybe he was better at pushing arcade hardware market positioning than software or the home market in general)

Others have implied that Nakayma was "forced" to take actions contrary to SoA's wishes by pressure from "other" upper management (partially induced by Nakayma constantly pounding on how the MD wasn't as successful as the Genesis), but it seems possible that Nakayma alone was the bigger problem. (other anecdotes and quotes point to some of the other Japanese management actually disagreeing with many of Nakayma's decisions too, but not related to SoA either way -albeit some JP managment seemed to disagree with many of the same decisions SoA disagreed with, but often for different reasons)


It is amazing that the Saturn, complete with its lack of development kits and being "hard to program" is Sega's only successful console in Japan.
It was more of a flash in the pan hit though, once Sony got Square, the Saturn declined rapidly (and fell behind the N64's market share by 1998 -not aggregate sales, mind you).

And it really depends how you define "success" . . . I think the SG-1000 and MkIII/SMS had been profitable at least, and the MD was definitely a market success for them.

Actually, I think the MD may have done about as well as the Saturn overall. (comparing net hardware sales of the PCE, MD, SFC vs PSX, Saturn, N64)



I completely disagree with Stolar's impression of Okawa and I think he was just blabbing about superficial facts he knew about the man. All I know about Okawa is that he used hundreds of millions of his personal money to keep Sega afloat in late 2001 and he died of a heart attack a couple of weeks after the Dreamcast's discontinuation.
I think Okawa may have been the best overall president/CEO that SoJ ever had. (it makes you wonder how he might have handled things back in 1994/95 or such)




The Dreamcast supposedly languished on shelves at half and then one third the price of the PS2 during Christmas 2000 in the US. That was printed by magazines that had notoriously predicted its demise for its entire lifecycle though, so that information is suspect until proven.
Yes, and that alone was a major fault in dropping the prices.
The DC was already significantly cheaper than the PS2, dropping lower didn't make sense either. It also already had much more (and often better) software available.
The contending factor was Sony's hype, and Sega had 2 options to counter that:
A. pull things back and hold tight until after the PS2's launch hype died down a bit (and after people actually saw the thing in action -and how many of the early games actually looked worse than the DC) or
B. they could have invested more in their own hype to counter the PS2 (perhaps with a competitive marketing campaign that poked holes in the PS2's inflated specs and false/out of context tech demos), those ads could also continue to promote the relative price point and existing software library.

Case A. would certainly involve not dropping the price (not investing so heavily in internet, as I detailed already, would have assisted that greatly too, but that would have been tougher after the fact), and probably selling hardware for profit by early 2001.

In either case, they'd also have to re-evaluate their positioning for the GC and Xbox (probably drop below the GC's price point to retain their lower cost advantage -still should have been selling for profit, especially since Nintendo was pushing that with more substantial hardware with similar consolidation -arguably less in some areas than the DC).













1) Dreamcast
2) Saturn
3) Neo-Geo Pocket Color
4) N64 DD Disk Drive -Not on list, and only released in Japan. Although I think it's mostly Nintendo's fault that it met an early and late demise.
The DD was a bad idea through and through.

"Yeah, lets drop CD-ROM for carts and then offer a proprietary, expensive, inefficient, lower capacity, somewhat unreliable, magnetic disk format 3 years after the fact!"

The DD used a proprietary implementation of ZIP/SuperDisk like technology that shared pretty much the same disadvantages to CD-ROM as those products had. (significantly more expensive disks and drives to manufacture -technically CD Drives are cheaper to build than most traditional floppy disk drives, but the heavy patent/license royalties kept that skewed until the mid '90s)

Had Nintendo opted for a CD-ROM (or proprietary optical format -either as close to CD as the GC discs are to normal DVD, just with heavy security, or more like GD-ROM with a more comprehensive custom format) as an add-on for the N64, that could have made more sense. (one of the main reasons fro dropping CD was apparently lack of control/protection that carts offered, but a comprehensive security system and/or semi-proprietary format could address that -and as an add-on, it wouldn't need to be ready at launch, so they'd have more time to perfect it)

If Nintendo was willing to produce a bare-bones, low-cost drive add-on unit (in line with the complexity of the Jaguar CD, if not simpler in some areas) and sold it with little to no profit margins, it probably could have been priced at around $50 by 1997 (at least for a commodity low-end 2x speed unit). Drive components were cheap and the control logic/algorithms (the costly/patented parts) had dropped substantially by that point, so it would mainly have been a matter of the margins Nintendo wanted to push on the hardware pricing.
The cost overhead could be even lower on a standalone N64 Duo with the further integration and reduced overhead for manufacturing/packaging/distribution.

Hell, if they'd promoted such an add-on from day 1 of the N64, maybe that would have given Square more reason to stick with Nintendo. ;)

[Richter Belmount]

The gizmondo

[ki_atsushi]

I voted the Sega Nomad first and foremost.

It was the most powerful handheld in 1995, and the Genesis library was huge by that time. With so many great games, it should have sold way more than 1 million units.

The $180 launch price tag was just too much, considering that the Gameboy was likely $79 around that time (it launched at $89 and the price kept dropping over the years), plus the Game Boy library was well built by then as well, so that's two strikes against the Nomad. The third strike is probably the battery life.

However, I recently performed the LCD mod on my Nomad and not only does it address the blur and small viewing angle issues, the battery life jumps to over 8 hours. If LCD technology was just a little more efficient like it is today, this system would have been a huge contender.

[sheath]

I don't think I will ever understand why Game Gear or Nomad owners don't just wait for a wall outlet. I guess there are people who just sort of pause their game walk to the next location and unpause, or play the whole time. But jeez, I don't get it.

The Nomad had the entire Genesis library in 1995, that has to be at least equal to the Gameboy considering the hardware advantages.

If I wanted a portable gaming system, I'd much prefer something like the Turbo Express, GameGear with MasterGear or Nomad over having to buy all new games. The Turbo Express is the only one I haven't picked up yet. I also need to remember to replace the capacitors on my GameGear.

[ki_atsushi]

I don't think I will ever understand why Game Gear or Nomad owners don't just wait for a wall outlet. I guess there are people who just sort of pause their game walk to the next location and unpause, or play the whole time. But jeez, I don't get it.

The Nomad had the entire Genesis library in 1995, that has to be at least equal to the Gameboy considering the hardware advantages.

If I wanted a portable gaming system, I'd much prefer something like the Turbo Express, GameGear with MasterGear or Nomad over having to buy all new games. The Turbo Express is the only one I haven't picked up yet. I also need to remember to replace the capacitors on my GameGear.

I agree, the Nomad definitely should have done better than it did, but one thing I also failed to mention was that the Saturn was launched about 6 months prior, so by that time all of the advertising dollars were going to that, while Nintendo released the "Play it Loud!" series of colored Gameboys and had a huge ad campaign for them.

Plus, I think people were getting tired of Genesis gadgets... it was probably hard to convince mom and dad to buy another Genesis product when there was the Genesis, Sega CD, and 32x add-ons that were out there. Sega just flooded the market with hardware.

[kool kitty89]

I don't think I will ever understand why Game Gear or Nomad owners don't just wait for a wall outlet. I guess there are people who just sort of pause their game walk to the next location and unpause, or play the whole time. But jeez, I don't get it.

The Nomad had the entire Genesis library in 1995, that has to be at least equal to the Gameboy considering the hardware advantages.

If I wanted a portable gaming system, I'd much prefer something like the Turbo Express, GameGear with MasterGear or Nomad over having to buy all new games. The Turbo Express is the only one I haven't picked up yet. I also need to remember to replace the capacitors on my GameGear.
We had a couple recent thread on this on Sega-16 (I should probably try to back those up), mainly with me and ABlackFalcon; actually one of them was xdragonwarrior's Game Gear Pocket thread. ;) (probably the only really productive thread he started)

... anyway:

Battery life is very important overall for a portable console. Consider having it outside (after school, waiting for the bus, etc, etc), on the bus, in the car (without convenient access to a cigarette lighter socket), or just going around the house without having to constantly move a power supply around and find another socket. (or constantly swap batteries -and that's if you can AFFORD to swap batteries at all without ruining your game)

3 hours (if that) is simply too short, even 4-6 hours is pretty bad for a handheld game system. (10 hours is more like a decent minimum for a successful mass market portable game system, except maybe if it has very cheap charging peripherals and charges extremely quickly)

It's just a major inconvenience and added cost if you're using non-rechargeable batteries. (or added cost of having to buy various peripherals you otherwise wouldn't)
If you went on a long road trip with a Game Boy, keeping a few extra alkalines would be the most convenient thing to do. (NMH, or especially NiCD batteries are a lot shorter lasting . . . especially back then, and they don't keep nearly as well -lithiums would be a bit overkill though)

That's why Sega and Atari really screwed up by not pushing hard for unlit reflective screens ASAP. back in 1989/91, color screens were really low quality for reflective displays (the contrast ratios were significantly worse than the GB -hence the poor viewing angle on the GG compared to the GB), they needed backlighting just to have acceptable display quality. However, by the mid 90s (perhaps as early as 1993) commodity color LCD screens were getting to the point of being acceptable for reflective lighting. (by '95, Sega definitely should have had a reflective model; cheaper, smaller, lighter, and MUCH less power hungry -especially with additional consolidation of the chipset)




With the Nomad, you also have the clunky Genesis carts making it totally unattractive as a mass market handheld.

The Nomad was NOT a standalone handheld platform, it was just a high-end accessory and fain service to Genesis owners. (which is also why it's a bit silly when people say Sega killed the GG and brought out the Nomad -especially since it wasn't until late 1996 that the GG was effectively killed off as an active product)
It's like the X'Eye or CDX in that respect . . . except in that case Sega really SHOULD have released a low-cost duo-type CD unit rather than just licensing to JVC for a high-end system or releasing the deluxe/high-end CD-X. (they should have had a $299 duo out by the time the model 2 launched in '93, probably down to $250 by early/mid 1994, maybe even $200 by late that year -it seems Sega dropped the SRP of the Genesis and CD to $100 and $150 by late '94, so that wouldn't be unrealistic; albeit, I'm not positive those figures are reliable)





OTOH, I also think it was a bad move for Nintendo not to offer fully backlit models of the original GB as a deluxe line, especially since the simple design would have meant still retaining a fairly decent battery life. (possibly still close to 10 hours, granted that's less than 1/3 of the nominal life of a normal GB)
Same for the GBC for that matter. (probably with 4 AAs)

That way, you'd cater both to those who prefer backlighting to good battery life, low-cost, or compact size. (or especially those who found unlit LCD screens unplayable -I personally never have except in really poor lighting conditions)