The Summer of Protos!

[mrmark0673]

Hi all! Matt and I plan to release a majority of our Unreleased NES protos this summer. Check out this thread and enjoy the games!

http://www.nintendoage.com/forum/messageview.cfm?catid=35&threadid=52026

[Greg2600]

You guys just flat rock!

Given that so few people who own prototypes do this, what has caused you two to be the mavericks in this case?

[mrmark0673]

You guys just flat rock!

Given that so few people who own prototypes do this, what has caused you two to be the mavericks in this case?

Well...

Prototype preservation has always been our reason for collecting protos. We've release plenty of the years, but a few things have come up that have allowed us to become even more generous.

These things costs us tens of thousands of dollars. That sounds crazy to most people. What's crazier is that every time we publicly release a ROM for an unreleased game to the community, we devalue it greatly. For example, we initially paid $1,500 for Arcadia VI, now since it's been dumped, I'd put it right around the $350 mark. Because of this, I can definitely see why people would be reluctant to do something like this.

Matt and I recently made a substantial purchase of sealed games, one of which was a copy of Flintstones 2. To put into perspective its rarity, there are far fewer known sealed F2's than there are Stadium Events at the moment. With the sale of that game, we'll likely recoup the cost of much of our collection, prototype or otherwise.

In the past, we've had to release unreleased games on carts to recoup some of our expenses to get these out to the public. With this recent purchase, we're able to release these games to everyone, completely free of charge, while not putting ourselves out on the street at the same time.

These things have a limited shelf life and will be lost to time eventually. Arcadia VI will forever be preserved as a snap shot of time in the history of gaming for all to enjoy, and we've got plenty more where that came from :)

Enjoy guys, and thanks for all the support over the years!

[baraka]

Well...
In the past, we've had to release unreleased games on carts to recoup some of our expenses to get these out to the public. With this recent purchase, we're able to release these games to everyone, completely free of charge, while not putting ourselves out on the street at the same time.


Thats awesome that you guys are doing that for the community! You probably still know what game I'm secretly hoping to be released :)

[djshok]

Man you guys are my heroes. Any chance you'll be releasing any Sega protos in the future?

[mrmark0673]

Bump for a new unreleased proto! Thought we'd mix things up a bit and give something up to the Sega crowd. Without further ado, I present you: Dragon's Lair for the Sega Genesis!

http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n223/mrmark0673/Protos/100_2064.jpg

Original purchase price: $800
Previous owner: Gknight

Don't ask me why, but I love this one! It's a port of the SNES game with some distinct differences in graphics and is 100% complete. The only glitch I've seen is that when you duck and fire your weapon, there is no firing animation, so you just shoot the object from your head.

Just a small taste of things to come for the summer of protos, the ROM is attached to the first post in the linked thread above. Enjoy!

[BeaglePuss]

Thats awesome that you guys are doing that for the community! You probably still know what game I'm secretly hoping to be released :)

We were only planning on distributing unreleased titles, but I promise to make a special exception just for you. Expect a release later in the month for that one.


Man you guys are my heroes. Any chance you'll be releasing any Sega protos in the future?

Ask and you shall receive.

[baraka]

We were only planning on distributing unreleased titles, but I promise to make a special exception just for you. Expect a release later in the month for that one.

I can hardly believe it, that is too awesome.. Thank you so much man!

[mrmark0673]

Bump for today's release: USA Bowling! ROM can be found in the first post of the above link, info in the last post. Enjoy!

[Greg2600]

I agree, an interesting take on a bowling game. The control mechanism is somewhat unique too.

[ProgrammingAce]

Good on you guys

[poloplayr]

Very very grateful for your work. Much appeciated and keenly looking forward to all the fun stuff on its way...

[hellfire]

Really good job on the releases! How have you guys been doing? I have not been around in awhile.

[mrmark0673]

Really good job on the releases! How have you guys been doing? I have not been around in awhile.

Been pretty good, just crazy busy. Bought a two family house (well, a duplex if you're anywhere other than New England) with Matt and have just been working our asses off to get it ready. Lots of painting, lots of money spent, but very rewarding. First time for both of us living with the girlfriends too, so it should be interesting :)

Thanks for all the feedback guys, more games to follow!

[Colorado Rockies]

Damn this is actually really cool!

Release the next proto already lol!

[Parodius Duh!]

socks the cat rocks the hill....Ive seen the video. You guys own this or know the guy who does. Stop hoarding and release it please!? :)

[Guy Bramsworth]

It's never a good idea to use the word "hoarding" I think with anyone releasing stuff for free. They've been this generous so far, being told to stop hoarding when that's anything but what they're doing would just sort get on my nerves, but maybe that's just me.

[Parodius Duh!]

its all in good fun, hence the smiley at the end. I suppose sarcasm can not work through the pixelnetweb. Its the only unreleased game I care about being able to play.

[Guy Bramsworth]

Yeah, it sometimes isn't obvious if you're using it in jest or not =p

I'd like to see Socks to, but as far as I know only DreamTR has a copy that he's said he doesn't plan to let go of or even offer donations for a ROM dump for due to it being a favorite game or something like that. Can't recall anything that made much sense... But I don't think the brothers here own that game, unless I missed something．

[BeaglePuss]

You're right Brams. Dream is the only person I know with a copy of Socks, and it's staying put for the time being.

[djshok]

Any chance in hell that you guys have X-Women?

[BeaglePuss]

Any chance in hell that you guys have X-Women?
I wish my man. I don't know of anyone that has a copy of X-Women.

[Parodius Duh!]

the heck is X-Women?

[BeaglePuss]

the heck is X-Women?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AOB1RP3xBCo

[Drixxel]

I just now clued into this thread and gave the Dragon's Lair Genesis proto a try. Awesome! It's arguably better than the SNES version. Thanks muchly for putting this one out there.

[mrmark0673]

No problem at all :)

With DP dissolving its proto forum, it is extremely unlikely that I'll be bumping this thread again. For those interested in future releases, please stay tuned to the thread on NA.

[DreamTR]

A lot of people forget that I (and mrmark/beagle) have released a TON of NES unreleased games over the years (mine through someone else) and "hoarding" is always funny when I am referred to as that, even jokingly...

As far as Socks The Cat goes, legwork was involved, and I understand people want to play it, but everyone forgets about a game once it is out..heck, War on Wheels was such a big deal but we couldn't even sell 100 of the carts...Indy Heat for Sega Genesis? Having a hard time selling out on those...it's difficult to justify releasing anything if people don't support previous releases. I would LOVE to get Socks out there properly, but everyone needs to support the other releases and not expect everything for free.....

[Doonzmore]

As far as Socks The Cat goes, legwork was involved, and I understand people want to play it, but everyone forgets about a game once it is out..heck, War on Wheels was such a big deal but we couldn't even sell 100 of the carts...Indy Heat for Sega Genesis? Having a hard time selling out on those...it's difficult to justify releasing anything if people don't support previous releases. I would LOVE to get Socks out there properly, but everyone needs to support the other releases and not expect everything for free.....

I'm not familiar with the kind of manufacturing costs and labor involved in making carts (or if there's a notable difference between producing Snes and Genesis carts) but are you contemplating releasing Socks on cart first? I'm sure you'd receive a lot of support from the community (myself included) since it has 18 years of curiosity built up behind it.

[Emperor Megas]

As far as Socks The Cat goes, legwork was involved, and I understand people want to play it, but everyone forgets about a game once it is out..heck, War on Wheels was such a big deal but we couldn't even sell 100 of the carts...Indy Heat for Sega Genesis? Having a hard time selling out on those...it's difficult to justify releasing anything if people don't support previous releases. I would LOVE to get Socks out there properly, but everyone needs to support the other releases and not expect everything for free.....Could there be some sort of pre-order model to protect your investment?

[Singletriad]

I'm pretty new to collecting and im curious... how do people evne come across protos?

[Baloo]

I'm pretty new to collecting and im curious... how do people evne come across protos?

Most are found in the wild, usually around California, being sold by old magazines, reviewers, developers, companies, etc.

[GameNinja]

I saw a video of Socks on youtube, and it looks interesting to say the least. All of the other websites say that "no copies exist" and one even had a quote from a developer saying that "no copies exist". Guess she is pretty obviously wrong!

[DreamTR]

I'm not familiar with the kind of manufacturing costs and labor involved in making carts (or if there's a notable difference between producing Snes and Genesis carts) but are you contemplating releasing Socks on cart first? I'm sure you'd receive a lot of support from the community (myself included) since it has 18 years of curiosity built up behind it.

Doonzmore: I tried doing preorders with War on Wheels but the guy I had doing them for me took FOREVER. SNES Repros haven't really been done as much with box manual, but that is besides the point...people aren't supporting the OTHER games I have (had) available...a lot of people want games but don't want to pay to get them....they esxpect them for free, that's the problem. I am sure everyone wants to PLAY Socks, but not PAY to PLAY it.

[Doonzmore]

Doonzmore: I tried doing preorders with War on Wheels but the guy I had doing them for me took FOREVER. SNES Repros haven't really been done as much with box manual, but that is besides the point...people aren't supporting the OTHER games I have (had) available...a lot of people want games but don't want to pay to get them....they esxpect them for free, that's the problem. I am sure everyone wants to PLAY Socks, but not PAY to PLAY it.

I guess I don't understand the point reinstating the lack of support you have received for your other releases. We get that. I was mostly interested in the cost/difficulty of producing Snes carts (don't know if you've done Snes repros in the past) and when I said you'd probably receive community support I meant people who would PAY to PLAY it. At least I would...

It's a shame your other games haven't sold well. Are you affiliated with thenesdump by any chance? I recall seeing complete repros of War on Wheels for sale on their website last I checked.

[MachineGex]

Mark and Matt-
You guys are truely standup guys! Our community is lucky to have you both!
Thanks!!!

[DreamTR]

I guess I don't understand the point reinstating the lack of support you have received for your other releases. We get that. I was mostly interested in the cost/difficulty of producing Snes carts (don't know if you've done Snes repros in the past) and when I said you'd probably receive community support I meant people who would PAY to PLAY it. At least I would...

It's a shame your other games haven't sold well. Are you affiliated with thenesdump by any chance? I recall seeing complete repros of War on Wheels for sale on their website last I checked.

I reinstated the lack of support because it's not worth it to look into the SNES stuff if no one is buying the other stuff. Too much cost to endure on something like that. NEsdump I sold off my excess boxes and manuals to them, they have the rest of my War on Wheels stock.

I am sure people would pay to play it but we've been down that road before with me and "donations" to play a game...there's a morality issue of people still expecting games for free. If you tell the same people to buy the proto or something, they don't have money, but want to play it for free still. The reality is it should be released properly with box and manual but there's a bit more work in SNES stuff. I am pretty sure I know who CAN do it, but I would much rather sell out of Indy Heat at least FIRST before anything....

[Doonzmore]

I reinstated the lack of support because it's not worth it to look into the SNES stuff if no one is buying the other stuff. Too much cost to endure on something like that. NEsdump I sold off my excess boxes and manuals to them, they have the rest of my War on Wheels stock.

I am sure people would pay to play it but we've been down that road before with me and "donations" to play a game...there's a morality issue of people still expecting games for free. If you tell the same people to buy the proto or something, they don't have money, but want to play it for free still. The reality is it should be released properly with box and manual but there's a bit more work in SNES stuff. I am pretty sure I know who CAN do it, but I would much rather sell out of Indy Heat at least FIRST before anything....

Fair enough. A box and manual would be great to have for a game like that. I purchased a repro of Eon Man for the Nes from TheNesDump and the box/manual are first rate. Don't regret spending a single dime on it. Great game.

Carry on.

@Evan - This was the sort of information I was looking for and didn't get from Jason. Thanks a mint.

[badinsults]

One of the big problems with making SNES reproductions is that the cost of making the cart is almost the same as buying a full on flash cart.

Really, the SNES is flexible enough that it could be possible to make an all purpose repro cart that can have adjustable mappings, but really, it probably isn't worth it considering that a Super Everdrive costs $70, and there is an extremely limited market for reproductions.

If people like DreamTR do not want to release these things, that is fine. Prototypes cost a lot of money, and releasing them may bring unwarranted negative attention.

Hopefully with the museum that Joe is starting up, many of these obscure items find a home where they can be properly studied and preserved, without the scrutiny of ROM kiddies. I certainly will be sending my prototypes there once the museum is opened (though I admittedly have a small amount compared to the big collectors).

[dao2]

I'd be willing to buy a repro of sucks, depending on the price. I'd be happy with 50-60ish :<

[Kitsune Sniper]

Most are found in the wild, usually around California, being sold by old magazines, reviewers, developers, companies, etc.

Tell me about it. I've stumbled upon several protos in my time.

[DreamTR]

One of the big problems with making SNES reproductions is that the cost of making the cart is almost the same as buying a full on flash cart.

Really, the SNES is flexible enough that it could be possible to make an all purpose repro cart that can have adjustable mappings, but really, it probably isn't worth it considering that a Super Everdrive costs $70, and there is an extremely limited market for reproductions.

If people like DreamTR do not want to release these things, that is fine. Prototypes cost a lot of money, and releasing them may bring unwarranted negative attention.

Hopefully with the museum that Joe is starting up, many of these obscure items find a home where they can be properly studied and preserved, without the scrutiny of ROM kiddies. I certainly will be sending my prototypes there once the museum is opened (though I admittedly have a small amount compared to the big collectors).

One guy on YouTube just called my friend who made the video a "hoarding JEW" for not releasing it....pleasantries, these guys that want to play for free. =)

[Kitsune Sniper]

But you have valid reasons for not releasing the games...

Unlike certain arcade proto owners who flaunt that they do own them and will never release the dumps because they're petty manchildren who feel enjoyment from truly hoarding something that very few people have an interest in.

[old_skoolin_jim]

Super cool! Looking forward to playing these. Thanks! :D

[Ackman]

Will repros even work on a legit system?

What about you have donation drive, where unless your reach a certain ammount of $ you don't release the image unless you reached the donation goal, they never reach the goal you never release it. If everybody gives 1 dollar or 10 dollars etc it should at least make it interesting I'm sure that will give people an incentive to donate? A counter keeps tally so that they know how much closer they are to it being released. Maybe a portion of it goes to charity?

I not sure how big the demand is though.

Ah just a thought.

[DreamTR]

But you have valid reasons for not releasing the games...

Unlike certain arcade proto owners who flaunt that they do own them and will never release the dumps because they're petty manchildren who feel enjoyment from truly hoarding something that very few people have an interest in.

I know the arcade guys are tough to deal with on protos...I have a couple of arcade protos myself but there's another side to it...when you TRY and get it out there and people don't even want to pay something small ($1200 for a Beavis and Butthead Arcade machine) and it goes to someone else who won't dump it either, there's no one to blame but the "dumpers" themselves for not getting together and getting the money together...

Arcade protos come up for sale even LESS and when they do come up, people nickel and dime the value on items that don't have sales records....either way opportunities are there and people let them slide on by.

[Kitsune Sniper]

I know the arcade guys are tough to deal with on protos...I have a couple of arcade protos myself but there's another side to it...when you TRY and get it out there and people don't even want to pay something small ($1200 for a Beavis and Butthead Arcade machine) and it goes to someone else who won't dump it either, there's no one to blame but the "dumpers" themselves for not getting together and getting the money together...

Arcade protos come up for sale even LESS and when they do come up, people nickel and dime the value on items that don't have sales records....either way opportunities are there and people let them slide on by.

There's ongoing efforts to get these games preserved by organizations like The Dumping Project. I was mostly talking about the owners, the people who won't release these games not because of financial reasons, but because they truly despise emulation coders, dumpers, and anything related.

[mrmark0673]

when you TRY and get it out there and people don't even want to pay something small ($1200 for a Beavis and Butthead Arcade machine) and it goes to someone else who won't dump it either, there's no one to blame but the "dumpers" themselves for not getting together and getting the money together...

This. I buy protos and release them, others buy protos and keep them to themselves, others don't pony up the cash to actually buy a proto, but tell others what to do with them. If someone wants a proto handled a particular way, go out and buy the proto. That's what I do, that's what dream does, and that's what every other proto collector does.

[DreamTR]

There's ongoing efforts to get these games preserved by organizations like The Dumping Project. I was mostly talking about the owners, the people who won't release these games not because of financial reasons, but because they truly despise emulation coders, dumpers, and anything related.

The "Dumping Project" isn't doing the greatest job then...I don't think they are paying attention to the unreleased arcade stuff available when it is available.....

On another note:
I personally do not have any opinion on "dumping" other than I don't think people have a right to ask for something to be dumped for free if someone pays X amount for it. Even if they DON'T pay x amount for it and did all the legwork I would hope that person is able to get SOMETHING for in return. Not everyone does this, I just feel that value is obviously there "undumped" because everyone wants it to BE dumped, herein lies the supply/demand proto economics.

I personally do not have a problem dumping ANYTHING as long as I get some money out of it (heck, I'll even sell the physical protos) I just don't want to give it away, but a lot of my stuff sits for many systems because no one really wants to "pay" for unreleased games for some reason..back in the day I worked at a video game magazine, so "dumping" wasn't exactly something I wanted to be involved in, but slowly this stuff WILL get out there...

Either way, I'll leave that out there, everything has a price, and I am more apt to selling things these days because my collecting is not concentrated on other things...

[DreamTR]

This. I buy protos and release them, others buy protos and keep them to themselves, others don't pony up the cash to actually buy a proto, but tell others what to do with them. If someone wants a proto handled a particular way, go out and buy the proto. That's what I do, that's what dream does, and that's what every other proto collector does.

This is logical. If only everyone else saw it like this = )

[TheRedEye]

I know the arcade guys are tough to deal with on protos...I have a couple of arcade protos myself but there's another side to it...when you TRY and get it out there and people don't even want to pay something small ($1200 for a Beavis and Butthead Arcade machine) and it goes to someone else who won't dump it either, there's no one to blame but the "dumpers" themselves for not getting together and getting the money together...

Arcade protos come up for sale even LESS and when they do come up, people nickel and dime the value on items that don't have sales records....either way opportunities are there and people let them slide on by.

What? That only went for $1,200?! I didnt even know one was for sale.

[DreamTR]

What? That only went for $1,200?! I didnt even know one was for sale.

Yep, and I was selling it...it was on ebay for 2 months...kept creeping down in price...finally sold locally for $1200 because we couldn't get $1399 OBO for some reason, lol

[mrmark0673]

I certainly will be sending my prototypes there once the museum is opened (though I admittedly have a small amount compared to the big collectors).

If it ever gets up and running to the point that it is established enough to take things on loan, I'd consider sending some of my pieces over. I can't "donate" over 100 protos that I've spent well over $10,000 acquiring, I've worked too hard and spent too much getting them. Very cool idea and I love the concept, but I've done fine preserving my games on my own terms.

[mrmark0673]

Our newest addition to the list: Beastball! (Link can be found in first post)

http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n223/mrmark0673/Protos/DSC00776.jpg

Purchase Price: Can't remember, I'll check with Matt
Purchased From: Dreamtr

Beastball is a game that was to be ported to the Sega Genesis by Spectrum Holobyte. The game was released on several other consoles as Brutal Sports Football and Crazy Football on the Jaguar and Amiga.

The game plays out as a futuristic sporting event. Your goal is to have your team score by throwing or drop kicking a ball into the goal of the opposing team. You can punch or tackle opposing players, pick up weapons like swords, bombs, and shields to attack the other tam, as well as pick up items like a rabbit or a turtle that will effect your in game speed. The game ends when time runs out or you decapitate every member of the opposing team.

At the end of the game, money is awarded for how many points you score, how many players you've killed, and if you've won. You may use this money to heal players, or to increased their stats.

There are 3 modes of play: League, Unfriendly, and Knockout. In league, you attempt to bring your team to the championship. You can record your progress with a password. You will compete against other humans as well as various other races. In Unfriendly, you choose a team and play against the computer or a second player in a single, best of three, or best of seven format. In Knockout, you can create your own 12 man tournament using any combination of human and computer players.

[badinsults]

Interesting, someone was emailing me a couple of weeks ago about a snes version of Beastball. There is even some box art for it on Gamefaqs.

[Greg2600]

Fantastic! Tried it out on the Everdrive, plays a little slower on the real Genesis than PC/Emu. I cannot figure out how to score a goal. Game seems like a cross between Mutant League and rugby. Needed polishing.

[badinsults]

If anyone is interested, I created a page on the unreleased SNES version of Beastball.

http://www.snescentral.com/article.php?id=0922

[mrmark0673]

You can jump in the Genny version, but it's the same button that you use to do a million other things, so it happens almost at random. My biggest complaint about the proto is the bizarre choice of buttons that do different things.

[badinsults]

Yeah, in the DOS version, there are three action buttons. I have no idea why the nearly complete prototype doesn't have that.