Capcom tries to kill used video game sales with the one-save game

[Bojay1997]

For the rest of us who deal in reality...http://kotaku.com/5816145/capcom-denies-used-game-sales-had-anything-to-do-with-forever-saves

But that article provides no justification for why they made that "design" decision or how it improves the game in any way. There is absolutely no technical reason why they couldn't have allowed players to create multiple profiles/save files or delete a save file if they wanted to start the game fresh again and earn the unlocks of skills and characters a second time.

[heybtbm]

But that article provides no justification for why they made that "design" decision or how it improves the game in any way. There is absolutely no technical reason why they couldn't have allowed players to create multiple profiles/save files or delete a save file if they wanted to start the game fresh again and earn the unlocks of skills and characters a second time.

Why does Capcom need to justify anything? If you've done nothing wrong, what else is there to say? Some silly malcontents assume the worst and Capcom is suppose to respond with detailed explanations? I'm not even sure why I'm suddenly defending this. I guess I just can't stand blind stupidity (not directed at Bojay).

Besides, who knows what goes on in their minds when they're developing these things. Like I mentioned earlier, these are the same people who thought Dead Rising's sadistic save system improved the game by "adding a sense of urgency".

[Kitsune Sniper]

There was no reason for them to remove the game clear option. NONE.

I don't believe it had anything to do with used game sales. I just think they're assholes.

[Az]

It appears that the un-erasable save file will track things like unlocked levels, unlocked weapons, unlocked extras, high scores, etc.

So, we can assume that when you boot the cartridge up for the first time there will be a few levels available to select from, and many that are "locked". Once any player has earned the right to play in those levels they will permanently remain unlocked.

This comment isn't directed to anyone's thoughts so far, but I must say that if a game isn't worth playing after everything has been unlocked (yeech, I hate that word) then it wasn't much of a game to start with.

Does the 3DS have some type of universal 360-like achievement system? If it doesn't, then I don't see what the issue would be. It's not like you are prevented from still jumping through the hoops that require the bonus content to be unlocked, and nobody will ever see your e-penis gamerscore for comparison. I personally am not so sensitive that I would be offended if I finished the game without using a health spray but that perk had already been saved from the previous owner.

If you were to buy it used, at worst someone has filled the high score table up with 4th grade level dirty words, and at best you wouldn't have to slog through a bunch of inane shit to play the extra levels/characters/whatever. I can just see a steaming mad customer marching into Gamestop, bouncing the cart off the clerk's head, shouting "You mean everything is already unlocked?!? I demand a refund!"

[Bojay1997]

Why does Capcom need to justify anything? If you've done nothing wrong, what else is there to say? Some silly malcontents assume the worst and Capcom is suppose to respond with detailed explanations? I'm not even sure why I'm suddenly defending this. I guess I just can't stand blind stupidity (not directed at Bojay).

Besides, who knows what goes on in their minds when they're developing these things. Like I mentioned earlier, these are the same people who thought Dead Rising's sadistic save system improved the game by "adding a sense of urgency".

Well, they're a consumer products company that is dependent on the general public buying their games, so while they don't have to justify anything, they also take a huge risk by failing to get out in front of this wave of negative publicity and providing a plausible explanation for their "design" choice. Personally, I have a co-worker and two good friends, one who had it pre-ordered at Best Buy and the other two at Gamestop and they all refused to pick it up today after hearing the news about the save files. I'm sure they weren't alone. I know I certainly wouldn't pay full price for it. It will be interesting to see what the sales numbers look like given that stores such as Gamestop are notifying buyers that they won't accept it as a trade-in.

[Frankie_Says_Relax]

So ... if the headlines about Gamestop not accepting the game in trade-in is even true, are they also not accepting trade-ins on Super Monkey Ball 3DS?

Do they know that progress in that game similarly can not be "reset"?

It's the same exact functionality. Why would they treat that game any differently?

That aside, while everybody is certainly entitled to their own opinion, and nobody should feel obligated to buy or play this game for whatever reason they see fit, I can't help but feel that a tremendous portion of the gaming public's current opinion of this game has been drastically manipulated by sensationalist/reactionary gaming press.

The internet is a powerful powerful thing, and this is perfect evidence of how something that is not even completely fundamentally understood by many can cause a MASS sweeping change in public opinion.

[Kid Ice]

Since replay value tends to significantly influence review scores, rest assured the game will be buried.

IGN gave it a 7.5 for replay value.

What did I miss?

@Someone asked about the Commodore 64 game I mentioned that erased itself...I don't recall the title but it was blasted by either Electronic Games or Compute's Gazette...I'm pretty sure it was EG.

[TonyTheTiger]

Why does Capcom need to justify anything? If you've done nothing wrong, what else is there to say? Some silly malcontents assume the worst and Capcom is suppose to respond with detailed explanations? I'm not even sure why I'm suddenly defending this. I guess I just can't stand blind stupidity (not directed at Bojay).

Besides, who knows what goes on in their minds when they're developing these things. Like I mentioned earlier, these are the same people who thought Dead Rising's sadistic save system improved the game by "adding a sense of urgency".

The thing is, they technically did do something wrong. It doesn't mean they did something sinister but not having a delete option is something I consider a design flaw. Actually, I'm slightly disappointed that it isn't to combat used sales. Because if they flat out said that's what it's meant for then I may think it's dumb but at least it's grounded in some real world issue and somebody put a little thought into the implementation. But for it to just be an arbitrary design choice...then it's just a needless one. It's certainly not something I'll throw a fit over or solely base a purchasing decision on. But it's still just one of those things that makes me think, "But...why?" :?

[Mayhem]

So ... if the headlines about Gamestop not accepting the game in trade-in is even true, are they also not accepting trade-ins on Super Monkey Ball 3DS?
Does that have only one save file as well? Can you select "new game" and when you save, over write the previous save? Two important questions there at least...

[Gameguy]

So it's like Gunpey DS, one save file and no way to clear unlocked content. I guess nobody cared with Gunpey DS since the game sucked anyway.

Weren't there sports games on the Genesis that saved stats and couldn't be erased? I really can't remember because I never played sports games much, I just thought I came across manuals that mentioned something like that. I really don't want to dig through them now to confirm it.

[Orion Pimpdaddy]

I think it's important to boycott this game. If there's not a consumer backlash against it, then we'll see this "one save" thing become the norm. Can you imagine if they do this for the new Mario game or the Mario Kart game? What happens now has major implications for later games.

Looks like it's getting trashed in the Amazon reviews:

http://www.amazon.com/Resident-Evil-Mercenaries-Nintendo-3DS/product-reviews/B002I0GKA4/ref=sr_1_1_cm_cr_acr_txt?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=1

[Icarus Moonsight]

Why does the Plumber need to justify anything? If you've done nothing wrong, what else is there to say? Some silly malcontents assume the worst, and Larry is suppose to respond with detailed explanations? I'm not even sure why I'm suddenly defending this non-flushing toilet. I guess I just can't stand blind stupidity (not directed at Bojay).

Besides, who knows what goes on in their minds when they're installing toilets. Like I mentioned earlier, these are the same people who thought installing a toilet upside down was genius for "adding a sense of urgency".

This is how that came across to me.

Edit: I liked this comment, "Ever had a save corrupt? That would be awkward if you can't delete and restart..."

[Leo_A]

I think it's important to boycott this game. If there's not a consumer backlash against it, then we'll see this "one save" thing become the norm. Can you imagine if they do this for the new Mario game or the Mario Kart game? What happens now has major implications for later games.

Looks like it's getting trashed in the Amazon reviews:

http://www.amazon.com/Resident-Evil-Mercenaries-Nintendo-3DS/product-reviews/B002I0GKA4/ref=sr_1_1_cm_cr_acr_txt?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=1

Why?

They're not going to make videogames be things you play through once. Heck, this isn't even the first Resident Evil game with such a save system.

It has no implications for later games.

[Frankie_Says_Relax]

Does that have only one save file as well? Can you select "new game" and when you save, over write the previous save? Two important questions there at least...

While I don't own the game, I've seen it described as a single progress/save slot, no option to delete unlocked content, reported as confirmed by Sega customer service reps with no option to delete progress on multiple gaming forums.

[Mayhem]

If that's the case, then indeed, why the fuss now and not before? Because this is RE and hence likely to be more widely sold?

[Oobgarm]

If that's the case, then indeed, why the fuss now and not before? Because this is RE and hence likely to be more widely sold?

I think it's because it's been presented as a "fuck you" from Capcom to resellers, both individuals and organizations.

[Frankie_Says_Relax]

I think it's because it's been presented as a "fuck you" from Capcom to resellers, both individuals and organizations.

Well, it's been presented that way by the gaming press, but by all accounts publicly denied by Capcom in direct responses to major gaming press outlets who have alleged that the lack of save reset is a design decision intended to hurt consumers who wish to partake in the 2nd hand market.

[Baloo]

While I don't like this decision Capcom has made for the game, the one save file only feature that's really just stupid to begin with, why are people boycotting the game for the sake of only one save file?

You buy it new, play through it, and enjoy it. Have video games become more of something you simply buy to sell later rather than just playing through the fucking game?

Capcom has been assholes lately, with no Ace Attorney Investigations 2 being localized, but is this really something that should be bitched about? Play through the game, enjoy it, then throw it out or do something else with it.

[Icarus Moonsight]

Wait until they re-integrate this plus the Ink Ribbon save system too. Can't find anymore ribbons? Time to buy another copy and try again! :roll:

[kupomogli]

Can you imagine if they do this for the new Mario game or the Mario Kart game? What happens now has major implications for later games.

It wouldn't matter. Even if the next Mario Kart didn't allow you to reset your saves what are you really losing. Stuck with the best times and all gold cups? Something like that really doesn't matter. It's the same with Resident Evil Mercenaries and people are blowing it out of proportion.


Looks like it's getting trashed in the Amazon reviews:

http://www.amazon.com/Resident-Evil-Mercenaries-Nintendo-3DS/product-reviews/B002I0GKA4/ref=sr_1_1_cm_cr_acr_txt?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=1

Some of the legitimate reviews are based on the fact that the game is a bare bones mini game, not about the save file problem.

There are other reviews by people who don't own the game and have no idea what they're talking about, just heard that you have a single save file. Here's just one of the many fine examples.

http://www.amazon.com/review/RUFFLRUFJM06A/ref=cm_cr_pr_perm?ie=UTF8&ASIN=B002I0GKA4&nodeID=&tag=&linkCode=

A review is supposed to be what you've played and your opinions on a game. Not to bash a game while not even being close to what problems that are contained within the game.

[jupitersj]

The delete save feature will be added into the Super Turbo Resident Evil: Mercenaries Hyper Alpha 3D Plus release :ass:

[NE146]

I'm buying one and storing it away. Heck, maybe an untouched original cartridge will be worth bucks 10-20 years down the line. :p

[Orion Pimpdaddy]

It wouldn't matter. Even if the next Mario Kart didn't allow you to reset your saves what are you really losing. Stuck with the best times and all gold cups? Something like that really doesn't matter. It's the same with Resident Evil Mercenaries and people are blowing it out of proportion.



Some of the legitimate reviews are based on the fact that the game is a bare bones mini game, not about the save file problem.

There are other reviews by people who don't own the game and have no idea what they're talking about, just heard that you have a single save file. Here's just one of the many fine examples.

http://www.amazon.com/review/RUFFLRUFJM06A/ref=cm_cr_pr_perm?ie=UTF8&ASIN=B002I0GKA4&nodeID=&tag=&linkCode=

A review is supposed to be what you've played and your opinions on a game. Not to bash a game while not even being close to what problems that are contained within the game.

Like I said, it's about this becoming a regular thing in the future. The best time to stop a major event (one time saves in 100 3DS games) is when it is a minor event (one time save in one 3DS game). I don't think it's "blowing it out of proportion."

Unlocking content has been a regular part of gaming for a long time. It gives the gamer a sense of progression. It also provides an incentive for playing. What sense what it be to pick up a future Zelda game and have Link at Level 99 experience with every item in his possession?

As for the Amazon review section, I realize it's supposed to be used by people who have actually purchased the product. However, it's also a good place to voice consumer complaints since it's public and the manufacturer most likely reads the comments. It's certainly more effective than calling Capcom directly.

[substantial_snake]

I'm a little more confused to how CAPCOM is trying to pass off a minigame as a fully priced release. I mean if they charged 20 bucks for it then it sound like a great little game but.. whatever I guess.

Given the nature of the game I don't see this as a big deal, however the explanation they gave really said nothing about why they felt like the game needed this or that is was a good idea. That annoys me a bit because I can't really see a legitimate reason to not include it for those who do like a clean slate, even if it is just resetting high scores.

[Sailorneorune]

While I don't like this decision Capcom has made for the game, the one save file only feature that's really just stupid to begin with, why are people boycotting the game for the sake of only one save file?

You buy it new, play through it, and enjoy it. Have video games become more of something you simply buy to sell later rather than just playing through the fucking game?

Capcom has been assholes lately, with no Ace Attorney Investigations 2 being localized, but is this really something that should be bitched about? Play through the game, enjoy it, then throw it out or do something else with it.

While I don't care for Resident Evil, Capcom could stand to benefit from mitigating one PR disaster by resolving another (completely unsubtle hint: "hey, we're releasing Ace Attorney Investigations 2 in English!" would help with this shitstorm).

[Icarus Moonsight]

I'm buying one and storing it away. Heck, maybe an untouched original cartridge will be worth bucks 10-20 years down the line. :p

Uncircumcised Virginal save states FTW! LOL

[j_factor]

So ... if the headlines about Gamestop not accepting the game in trade-in is even true, are they also not accepting trade-ins on Super Monkey Ball 3DS?

Do they know that progress in that game similarly can not be "reset"?

It's the same exact functionality. Why would they treat that game any differently?

Why didn't anyone in the media crow about Super Monkey Ball 3DS or claim that it was that way in order to take a swipe at used game sales?

[Icarus Moonsight]

Because it was Monkey Ball. Like a game in the line of Angry Birds, if you can't reset the save it's not a killed deal.

RE: Mercs though, has some uses for a save reset. Fresh start speed runs and the like, which have kept many retro games in high play rotation and have prompted people to study and grind their skill in them until they shave 2 or 3 seconds off their total time... For these types of games, it's a dick move and the game is without a doubt, lessor for it.

[Leo_A]

I don't see why this would kill speed runs. If anything, the persistent save is there just to encourage people to go back to it and improve upon their previous efforts.

[Icarus Moonsight]

Speed runs from scratch can only be done once per cart. No chance for improving the initial push through. You can limit what options you choose, but from a fresh start it's the same for everyone. If there is any level up system, skill levels or tree or weapon settings and upgrades that can not be scaled back or reset without starting fresh, that whole mode is dead.

[Leo_A]

And so far, we have no indication that I'm aware of that we do have things like weapon upgrades, skill levels you can't return back to, etc. And if it does, I assume people will just be performing speed runs with a fully tricked out save in order to maintain an equal playing field.

And really, I don't think Capcom is too terribly worried about the people that like to attempt speed runs in their games anyways. They're a minisicule proportion of the marketplace. Worrying about them makes about as much sense as if they were specifically worried about what Digital Press users thought of something.

[Icarus Moonsight]

Why would their caring about anyone else make any difference? I'd rather appeal to their own interest. It's a few lines of code and for this type of game, how popular it is and the types of people who play it, not giving an option that simple is frankly bonkers really. They're getting blasted for it, which isn't in their interest at all. You can't care about anything until you care about yourself first.

Also, if you are doing a speed run starting at 100% - it's kind of the Special Olympics version.

[RPG_Fanatic]

Gamespot has an article about this. Capcom says it's not trying to stop used game sales.

http://www.gamespot.com/news/6321800/capcom-explains-resident-evil-mercenaries-3d-save-system-flap?tag=updates%3Beditor%3Ball%3Btitle%3B1

[Icarus Moonsight]

...depriving second-hand [also, anybody that wants to play with a fresh start for any reason] purchasers of the ability to unlock levels, characters, and weapons undermines the value of the title...

This point still stands, used sales deterrent or not.

[Frankie_Says_Relax]

From the article:

In a post to Capcom's message boards today, a representative emphasized that wasn't the reason for the game's save system.

"There was no intention of lessening the experience of the game," said Capcom community specialist Shawn Baxter in his post. "Essentially, RE: Mercs was treated like an arcade fighting game. You unlock characters, levels, etc and they just stay unlocked as they would in an arcade machine. There was no hidden motive to prevent buying used copies. It's not some secret form of DRM. It's simply the way we designed the save system to work with the arcade type of gameplay."

Baxter went on to stress that the game doesn't have a traditional story mode, and every mission is replayable at-will, so no content would be inaccessible to a second-hand purchaser.

http://www.gamespot.com/news/6321800/capcom-explains-resident-evil-mercenaries-3d-save-system-flap?tag=updates%3Beditor%3Ball%3Btitle%3B1

This whole thing is absolutely ridiculous.

Is it a design decision that frustrates those who enjoy/depend on the 2nd hand market?

Yes.

Is it a design decision that frustrates the OCD in the gaming community that feel a compulsion to replay a non-linear arcade style game and not have any previous data imprint on it?

Yes.

Is it ultimately a poor choice by Capcom to have implemented such a feature or lack thereof?

Based on the reactions of the gaming press and by extension a majority of the gaming public, apparently the answer is yes.

But ultimately, do we REALLY believe that it is some grand conspiracy designed to "kill used video game sales"?

Really? Do we really really believe that this is anything more than an annoyance to the compulsive set who can't deal with the taint of another gamer having seen the "you've unlocked a level!" message or saved a high score or run-through time on the used cartridge that they're buying?

The gaming press has attempted to crucify Capcom over this, and Capcom have made multiple public statements refuting the allegations that they're out to hurt 2nd hand consumers.

Thats it.

There's really nothing more to be said other than disagreeing with their design choice.

Hopefully it's a lesson learned for them and they throw the option into their next arcade style game to avoid similar bad press.

:deadhorse: Seriously.

[98PaceCar]

Not to pick nits and certainly not insinuating that this is something that can be done by an "end user" of an arcade game, but of all the arcade fighters I've owned, I can't think of a single one that doesn't have a master reset that clears unlocked characters. It's a very normal part of what games do.

I don't know if they are really out to hurt used game sales, but given the current trends in the marketplace by other publishers, it's certainly suspect. As a company, they aren't going to come out and say that their end goal is to punish second hand purchasers, they aren't that stupid. I think we all have to take their statements with a large grain of salt as they are facing a backlash currently and they are going to do whatever they can to reduce the effects of that backlash.

[Frankie_Says_Relax]

Not to pick nits and certainly not insinuating that this is something that can be done by an "end user" of an arcade game, but of all the arcade fighters I've owned, I can't think of a single one that doesn't have a master reset that clears unlocked characters. It's a very normal part of what games do.

I don't know if they are really out to hurt used game sales, but given the current trends in the marketplace by other publishers, it's certainly suspect. As a company, they aren't going to come out and say that their end goal is to punish second hand purchasers, they aren't that stupid. I think we all have to take their statements with a large grain of salt as they are facing a backlash currently and they are going to do whatever they can to reduce the effects of that backlash.

When we're speculating the "reasons why" a publisher does something like this, we're ultimately speaking in unknowns.

It was a bad decision, that is clear, but only those who work for Capcom and/or the studio that made the game can say for sure if there was a meeting where people sat down and consciously decided that they were going to make the game function like that in order to "hurt" those who participate in the 2nd hand market.

No matter how savvy or experienced we are as consumers or students of the market - we can't say WHY they did it because we don't know for sure, for certain or via any demonstrable evidence that that "hurting" people is the real reason why the game functions like that.

Bad decision = the consensus appears to be yes

Why they made that decision = despite public opinion, unknown outside of the walls of Capcom HQ at this time and publicly refuted by Capcom as not what the public opinion alleges.

My main problem is when quote-unquote game journalists feel the need to write headlines similar to the one in this thread. I'm far more forgiving of a gaming community forum where subjective viewpoints are commonplace, but when I open up gaming news sites and see proclamations of calculated malice and evil on Capcom's part I can't help but feel frustrated and saddened because ultimately, a large portion of the gaming public will be swayed by those headlines without taking the time to read the articles and/or understand what the gameplay fundamentals of RE Mercs really are.

[Icarus Moonsight]

There's really nothing more to be said other than disagreeing with their design choice.

You say that as if it's a throw-away gripe. Who do you suppose they are making games for? The fact they even have to answer for it says more than anything. Disagreement keeps money and product from changing hands. I'm waiting for when gamers get even more discerning and demanding when offered things, seriously. We've been jockeyed quite enough already.

The ultimate refutation here is that it's not about what Capcom wants, that is, if they even remotely imagine themselves serving a trade.

[98PaceCar]

When we're speculating the "reasons why" a publisher does something like this, we're ultimately speaking in unknowns.

It was a bad decision, that is clear, but only those who work for Capcom and/or the studio that made the game can say for sure if there was a meeting where people sat down and consciously decided that they were going to make the game function like that in order to "hurt" those who participate in the 2nd hand market.

No matter how savvy or experienced we are as consumers or students of the market - we can't say WHY they did it because we don't know for sure, for certain or via any demonstrable evidence that that "hurting" people is the real reason why the game functions like that.

Bad decision = the consensus appears to be yes

Why they made that decision = despite public opinion, unknown outside of the walls of Capcom HQ at this time and publicly refuted by Capcom as not what the public opinion alleges.

My main problem is when quote-unquote game journalists feel the need to write headlines similar to the one in this thread. I'm far more forgiving of a gaming community forum where subjective viewpoints are commonplace, but when I open up gaming news sites and see proclamations of calculated malice and evil on Capcom's part I can't help but feel frustrated and saddened because ultimately, a large portion of the gaming public will be swayed by those headlines without taking the time to read the articles and/or understand what the gameplay fundamentals of RE Mercs really are.

I completely agree that we will never know why they made this decision. Truthfully, it's not really anybody's business outside of Capcom. I don't think it's prudent to break out the torches and pitchforks, but I also don't think it's prudent to take them at their word. They have interests to protect and they will do or say pretty much anything they legally can to protect those interests. It's a fact of business and any company will do just that when pushed into a corner. If such a large part of the industry was not actively seeking to hinder used sales, I'd be more forgiving. But current trends by other companies, not to mention the types of DRM that Capcom themselves have embedded in other titles, makes it hard for me to believe there isn't some malice intended. The truth likely lies somewhere in the middle.

This situation was certainly escalated by the so called "journalism" that our hobby enjoys, but I really think it would have come up at some point. Maybe not to the same extreme as what we are currently seeing, but it would have come up.

[Frankie_Says_Relax]

You say that as if it's a throw-away gripe. Who do you suppose they are making games for? The fact they even have to answer for it says more than anything. Disagreement keeps money and product from changing hands. I'm waiting for when gamers get even more discerning and demanding when offered things, seriously. We've been jockeyed quite enough already.

The ultimate refutation here is that it's not about what Capcom wants, that is, if they even remotely imagine themselves serving a trade.

To me, the issue with this game IS a throw-away gripe.

Capcom did not ship a game that crashes at the third level and then tell the public "Yeeeeaaaahhhh ... we've got your money. Go fuck yourselves, we're not patching it and we're not releasing a new version!" this is a matter of a design decision that does NOT "break" the game, it's just one that certain users disagree with based on their personal preferences as to how they like to experience progress "unlocked" in a game.

Furthermore, I've repeatedly agreed with the assessment that ultimately, it IS a BAD design choice since it obviously has infuriated the majority of the vocal public.

The public has spoken and Capcom has responded.

Period.

I don't see how we're not beating a dead horse here.

I'm unaware as to whether or not 3DS games can be "patched" via the internet. If they can I suppose there is still room for Capcom to rectify this matter with a live update.

If they can't, dead horse, but, since I have no direct control over you or anybody else who takes issue with this matter, regardless of what you think of my position, it's obviously not going to stop you and/or the rest of the gaming public that takes issue with this debacle from continuing to keep the pot boiling.

So, go ahead keep it boiling. I can't.

I just can't talk about this anymore, it just seems absurd at this point.

[Bojay1997]

To me, the issue with this game IS a throw-away gripe.

Capcom did not ship a game that crashes at the third level and then tell the public "Yeeeeaaaahhhh ... we've got your money. Go fuck yourselves, we're not patching it and we're not releasing a new version!" this is a matter of a design decision that does NOT "break" the game, it's just one that certain users disagree with based on their personal preferences as to how they like to experience progress "unlocked" in a game.

Furthermore, I've repeatedly agreed with the assessment that ultimately, it IS a BAD design choice since it obviously has infuriated the majority of the vocal public.

The public has spoken and Capcom has responded.

Period.

I don't see how we're not beating a dead horse here.

I'm unaware as to whether or not 3DS games can be "patched" via the internet. If they can I suppose there is still room for Capcom to rectify this matter with a live update.

If they can't, dead horse, but, since I have no direct control over you or anybody else who takes issue with this matter, regardless of what you think of my position, it's obviously not going to stop you and/or the rest of the gaming public that takes issue with this debacle from continuing to keep the pot boiling.

So, go ahead keep it boiling. I can't.

I just can't talk about this anymore, it just seems absurd at this point.

If you're so indifferent to the whole thing, why do you see the need to keep posting in this thread? People here and everywhere on the Internet like to complain about things that they find irritating or odd or whatever. That's what discussion boards are for.

Obviously, the backlash is having an impact or Capcom wouldn't have responded to the gaming press in the first place. They could have just said "we don't comment on speculation" and left it at that. They also could have just ignored the fact that Gamestop and several other retailers initially decided not to buy the game back. According to various reports, they contacted Gamestop and convinced them otherwise. To Capcom this is a very real profit impacting moment.

As a gamer, I'm glad that this issue is getting coverage. Did Capcom do this intentionally to prevent used sales? I don't know and frankly I don't care. I do know that it's not a design choice I want to support financially going forward and this is a game I actually pre-ordered at full price from the Capcom store. Will it impact used sales of this game and possibly influence other publishers to adopt a similar strategy or maybe not adopt the same strategy as a result of the public outcry? More than likely it will. As such, whether this bitching and moaning is valid or not, it could potentially prevent other publishers from implementing similar systems with the intent of reducing used sales. As such, I see it as a very good thing.

[98PaceCar]

As a gamer, I'm glad that this issue is getting coverage. Did Capcom do this intentionally to prevent used sales? I don't know and frankly I don't care. I do know that it's not a design choice I want to support financially going forward and this is a game I actually pre-ordered at full price from the Capcom store. Will it impact used sales of this game and possibly influence other publishers to adopt a similar strategy or maybe not adopt the same strategy as a result of the public outcry? More than likely it will. As such, whether this bitching and moaning is valid or not, it could potentially prevent other publishers from implementing similar systems with the intent of reducing used sales. As such, I see it as a very good thing.

QFT. Nothing was ever solved by accepting what an authority says and just rolling over. If you don't like something, you have to force change by being vocal and active.

[TonyTheTiger]

QFT. Nothing was ever solved by accepting what an authority says and just rolling over. If you don't like something, you have to force change by being vocal and active.

There's a problem with disproportionate response, though. I don't think it's a good design choice because the relationship between how useful the function can be vs. how easy it is to implement speaks for itself. I don't see the point in not providing the option. And that kind of arbitrary limitation comes off as asinine.

But declaring this some kind of major affront worthy of severe backlash is comical. Many people have pointed out other games that have the same flaw. I consider them all equal in those terms. Bad ommission, and I think it's perfectly fair for review scores or personal opinions to take that into account for however much it's valued. But I don't see how it could go that far beyond a mere "yeah, stupid" for any of the games.

I think Blaster Master not having any form of saving/password is pretty terrible, too. But I can't imagine myself decrying Sunsoft for doing anything except...selling an otherwise good game with a noticeable flaw. That's ultimately pretty mundane when you think about it.

[kupomogli]

Can't very well say if Capcom was trying to kill used games sales or not, but Resident Evil HD Revival is being released in Japan on Bluray, but in the west as digital download only. Either to stop piracy, used sales, or both.

http://www.siliconera.com/2011/03/24/resident-evil-4-hd-resident-evil-code-veronica-x-coming-this-fall-as-psnxbla-downloads/

[Icarus Moonsight]

Capcom did not ship a game that crashes at the third level and then tell the public "Yeeeeaaaahhhh ... we've got your money. Go fuck yourselves, we're not patching it and we're not releasing a new version!"

Did you just...? Really? LMAO
http://www.gametab.com/images/ss/ds/6442/box-l.jpg

I didn't buy this either. Their name being on the box doesn't help, even if Playmore were 100% at fault, skipped testing and solely screwed it up. Capcom got a cut and also didn't field any obligation whatsoever IIRC. This wasn't a CDi vs Nintendo contract farce either. They could have helped, or pulled.

[Frankie_Says_Relax]

Bojay, While I may be generally indifferent about the actual game itself (I've played a shit ton of Mercs on RE5 and on my iPhone, so I have what I believe is an appropriate perspective on the game and what a locked-down save file means in the context of what the game offers) what I do take extraordinary issue with is the impact that the media has had on this issue and the cascading effect that it had on the gaming public.

If it's not evident I'm a very even-keel guy when it comes to how I like to digest my gaming news. I do not like needless sensationalism and I do not like divisive or biased journalism. I say leave that shit to the various nightly and/or cable news programs reporting on entertainment, politics, religion, sports, etc.. keep it out of my gaming news. This industry suffers from enough childish bias at the consumer level.

I disagree with the notion that this has been reported as some noble act intended to "protect" the gaming public. I get that I'm in the minority but I also know that I'm absolutely entitled to my opinions.

It's pretty obvious that public opinion has been swayed by (or in some cases formed entirely based on) very subjective and needlessly sensational headlines surrounding this event. Every instance of a comment response to an article that says "I'm canceling my pre-order!" or "I'm never buying another game from Capcom!" is evidence to support this.

I would much rather see the gaming public formulate their own opinions from hands-on/experiential knowledge rather than be told that Capcom is doing something "calculated" and "malicious" to them by some reporter at Kotaku or Destructoid and directly impact the sales of a game that might have been marginally successful if not for the conspiracy-bent vitriol spewed by the gaming press.

As far as your question:


...why do you see the need to keep posting in this thread?

You answered it yourself:

Because I am a person and ...
...People here and everywhere on the Internet like to complain about things that they find irritating or odd or whatever. That's what discussion boards are for.


Did you just...? Really? LMAO I didn't buy this either. Their name being on the box doesn't help, even if Playmore were 100% at fault, skipped testing and solely screwed it up. Capcom got a cut and also didn't field any obligation whatsoever IIRC. This wasn't a CDi vs Nintendo contract farce either. They could have helped, or pulled.

While I appreciate the similarities, SNK Playmore produced and published the title not Capcom.

SNK Playmore acknowledged the game breaking bug and issued a recall/replacement cartridge by mail.

The name Capcom may have been on the game, but from what I understand like all of Capcom and SNK's other historical collaborations, development teams/resources were not shared, only characters licensed. Play testing is the responsibility of the studio and the publisher, which in this case is SNK.

I'm sure Capcom wasn't pleased when they heard the news, but it wasn't their place to fix that mess.

[98PaceCar]

There's a problem with disproportionate response, though. I don't think it's a good design choice because the relationship between how useful the function can be vs. how easy it is to implement speaks for itself. I don't see the point in not providing the option. And that kind of arbitrary limitation comes off as asinine.


I don't think I've said that the current level of backlash is acceptable. Quite to the contrary I specifically said that "I don't think it's prudent to break out the torches and pitchforks". But at the same time, Frankie's declaration of "The public has spoken and Capcom has responded. Period." is equally dangerous, if not more so.

There is a middle ground and that's where we need to be. Unfortunately, the internet makes it far to easy to go into nerd rage mode when something displeasurable comes up. The normal tendency for people in our hobby will be to defend it fiercely and that's what's happening.

[Oobgarm]

There is a middle ground and that's where we need to be. Unfortunately, the internet makes it far to easy to go into nerd rage mode when something displeasurable comes up. The normal tendency for people in our hobby will be to defend it fiercely and that's what's happening.

But when something like this can set a dangerous precedent, I think that standing up and defending fiercely is a good thing.

What if companies started to sneak this very idea into their software, saying that it was just a design decision?

They need to know that gamers will not stand for that.

[Bojay1997]

Bojay, While I may be generally indifferent about the actual game itself (I've played a shit ton of Mercs on RE5 and on my iPhone, so I have what I believe is an appropriate perspective on the game and what a locked-down save file means in the context of what the game offers) what I do take extraordinary issue with is the impact that the media has had on this issue and the cascading effect that it had on the gaming public.

If it's not evident I'm a very even-keel guy when it comes to how I like to digest my gaming news. I do not like needless sensationalism and I do not like divisive or biased journalism. I say leave that shit to the various nightly and/or cable news programs reporting on entertainment, politics, religion, sports, etc.. keep it out of my gaming news. This industry suffers from enough childish bias at the consumer level.

I disagree with the notion that this has been reported as some noble act intended to "protect" the gaming public. I get that I'm in the minority but I also know that I'm absolutely entitled to my opinions.

It's pretty obvious that public opinion has been swayed by (or in some cases formed entirely based on) very subjective and needlessly sensational headlines surrounding this event. Every instance of a comment response to an article that says "I'm canceling my pre-order!" or "I'm never buying another game from Capcom!" is evidence to support this.

I would much rather see the gaming public formulate their own opinions from hands-on/experiential knowledge rather than be told that Capcom is doing something "calculated" and "malicious" to them by some reporter at Kotaku or Destructoid and directly impact the sales of a game that might have been marginally successful if not for the conspiracy-bent vitriol spewed by the gaming press.

As far as your question:



You answered it yourself:

Because I am a person and ...



While I appreciate the similarities, SNK Playmore produced and published the title not Capcom.

SNK Playmore acknowledged the game breaking bug and issued a recall/replacement cartridge by mail.

The name Capcom may have been on the game, but from what I understand like all of Capcom and SNK's other historical collaborations, development teams/resources were not shared, only characters licensed. Play testing is the responsibility of the studio and the publisher, which in this case is SNK.

I'm sure Capcom wasn't pleased when they heard the news, but it wasn't their place to fix that mess.

I guess I just don't agree that either the media or the gaming public has "overreacted". In fact, most of the gaming websites I have visited have basically just laid out what the issue is and then concluded that it's not an issue for the initial purchaser of the game but that it's something to think about for subsequent purchasers. I'm not aware of anyone calling for a general Capcom boycott or even people demanding Capcom refund their money. People are simply voting with their wallets and not buying the game at this time.

Yes, there have been a few less reputable sites that have essentially pushed a Capcom bashing agenda, but most of us are savvy enough to separate fact from raw opinion. If anything, I think too many gaming news sites have simply posted Capcom's comments on the issue without any kind of analysis or response. Maybe the issue is that there isn't some organization that is really working or advocating for gamers or consumers in this arena so the video game media doesn't really have the same ability to seek out opposing opinions to include in their news pieces like a regular newspaper or magazine covering a story would. Frankly, most video game journalism today is just reformatted press releases and media from the publishers and the occasional interview about the status of particular games in development. There isn't a whole lot of actual investigative journalism going on which I think is the biggest flaw in video games media today.

I think your belief that the only way to make a decision about something is to experience it is naive and frankly, kind of paternalistic. Most of us aren't morons. We also don't have unlimited time in the day to read reviews or speak to sales people or play demos. We also don't necessarily need to spend $40 to decide whether something is a problem or not.

Games are luxury items and like all non-essential purchases, I give some thought to them before I make a purchase, not afterwards. I suspect most other consumers do as well. People are free to develop their beliefs about products any way they like. While you and everyone else here and elsewhere is entitled to their opinions, your opinions aren't more valid or more worthy than anyone else's. If someone wants to not buy this game because they don't like the font on the cover, that's a perfectly valid basis upon which to make their decision. If you don't like the way certain sites are handling the story, feel free to ignore them. Others are free to do what they like as well.

[TonyTheTiger]

But when something like this can set a dangerous precedent, I think that standing up and defending fiercely is a good thing.

What if companies started to sneak this very idea into their software, saying that it was just a design decision?

They need to know that gamers will not stand for that.

But why now, and with this one random game, though? That's the part that hasn't been clearly explained. What makes Resident Evil special? Why is it only vaguely bad for that Super Monkey Ball game to not let you delete data, for that MGS Game Boy Color game to not let you delete saves, something to criticise the game for but otherwise move on? But why is it that all of a sudden now it's a big deal?

I will stand firm. I do not like the design choice for whatever reason they did it. It doesn't matter the reason because regardless of why they did it, the result is the same. And if I were a reviewer giving a score I'd probably make note of it as a flaw and build it into whatever voodoo calculation reviewers apply to come up with their numbers.

But...again, this is not the first time the situation has popped up. It's not the first time this particular flaw has popped up and it's certainly not the first time an annoying flaw, any flaw large or small, has shown up in an otherwise popular, otherwise good game.

If somebody could explain to me why this particular instance is special and worth "taking a stand" over while all those other games were not, then I'd be all ears.

Why is it "Take a stand against Resident Evil so others don't take it further!" and was not "Take a stand against Super Monkey Ball so others don't take it further!"?

If anybody waving flags of revolution say that speculative journalism has nothing to do with it I'll be left with no choice but to giggle. Because I think it's pretty obvious that the only reason Capcom is left holding the potato is because no alarmist articles were ever published about those other games.

For the record, I'm also all for publishers behaving reasonably. Over-aggressive DRM, abusing microtransactions, and all that are bad. But my position has ultimately been somewhat tempered in that I genuinely believe the market will handle something of this nature. If Capcom actually is doing something wrong then their product won't sell to expectations and both Capcom and other publishers will learn that lesson. Either because people don't play the games at all or because they pirate the shit out of it to circumvent whatever draconian measures are contained within. We don't need overzealous banner-waving confusing the situation.

[Oobgarm]

Because Resident Evil is a AAAAAAA title that's being hyped up a lot. I didn't hear squat about Super Monkey Ball or even Metal Gear Solid on GBC in terms of advertising or anything like that. Honestly, I was unaware of Monkey Ball on 3DS and I own the damn system.

Metal Gear was out when used game sales were starting to take off, and at the time there was no concern from any company about those sales eating into their profits.

But now, when companies are so vocal about how they dislike used sales and are implementing tactics to entice buyers to adopt at launch or just simply buy new, it's easy for any similar tactic, intentional or not, to be pinned as something in a similar vein.

And your last statement is 105% true. They just got stuck holding the bag, when it should have been mentioned earlier.

[Bojay1997]

But why now, and with this one random game, though? That's the part that hasn't been clearly explained. What makes Resident Evil special? Why is it only vaguely bad for that Super Monkey Ball game to not let you delete data, for that MGS Game Boy Color game to not let you delete saves, something to criticise the game for but otherwise move on? But why is it that all of a sudden now it's a big deal?

I will stand firm. I do not like the design choice for whatever reason they did it. It doesn't matter the reason because regardless of why they did it, the result is the same. And if I were a reviewer giving a score I'd probably make note of it as a flaw and build it into whatever voodoo calculation reviewers apply to come up with their numbers.

But...again, this is not the first time the situation has popped up. It's not the first time this particular flaw has popped up and it's certainly not the first time an annoying flaw, any flaw large or small, has shown up in an otherwise popular, otherwise good game.

If somebody could explain to me why this particular instance is special and worth "taking a stand" over while all those other games were not, then I'd be all ears.

Why is it "Take a stand against Resident Evil so others don't take it further!" and was not "Take a stand against Super Monkey Ball so others don't take it further!"?

If anybody waving flags of revolution say that speculative journalism has nothing to do with it I'll be left with no choice but to giggle. Because I think it's pretty obvious that the only reason Capcom is left holding the potato is because no alarmist articles were ever published about those other games.

I can only speak for myself, but personally, I was really looking forward to this game as the 3DS so far has been a disappointment to me. I am already familiar with the franchise and the Mercenaries component of RE5. As such, this game came with much higher hopes and expectations on my part than the other games you cited.

I would agree with you that those other games flew under the radar. The fact that SMB for the 3DS regularly sells for $20 or less (it's $16 this week at Toys R Us) and is not a game I would buy anyway is probably a big part of why I hadn't thought much about it previously. Now that I know about it, I think it's just as bad as this situation and frankly should be mentioned in those articles. Having said that, it's always easier and more relevant to get fired up about something that is brand new rather than something that has sold poorly and sells at a sharp discount less than three months after release.

[Icarus Moonsight]

Rewind for just a second here; page 2


When you save a 3DS game, does it save on the cartridge or on the system itself? It seems like there would be some way of resetting this game, if not through a menu, then by physical means.

This prompted a flashback (whoa!) from something from the DS/GBA era. There were DS to GBA passthru carts that wrote over DS saves to give you everything in certain games. This was done by using the passthru on a GBA compatible system with the DS card inserted and you would select your desired options and the unit would write to file through a GBA GUI onto the DS card. I don't foresee any reason why this couldn't be done for 3DS games in the exact same way... Dump and store or reset functions, plus loading of hacked files with full unlocks etc. The problem is you would need to buy the passthru and have access to a GBA device to clear a game save on a 3DS game that could have been handled with a few menu selections.

We're back to our regularly scheduled dialog!

Why the big deal now? Well, the climate and situation just fell into place as it did, a perfect shitstorm. There is also much consumer fear floating about in gaming right now, especially in regard with trust issues.

[Frankie_Says_Relax]

Rewind for just a second here; page 2



This prompted a flashback (whoa!) from something from the DS/GBA era. There were DS to GBA passthru carts that wrote over DS saves to give you everything in certain games. This was done by using the passthru on a GBA compatible system with the DS card inserted and you would select your desired options and the unit would write to file through a GBA GUI onto the DS card. I don't foresee any reason why this couldn't be done for 3DS games in the exact same way... Dump and store or reset functions, plus loading of hacked files with full unlocks etc. The problem is you would need to buy the passthru and have access to a GBA device to clear a game save on a 3DS game that could have been handled with a few menu selections.


Maybe Datel will make a 3DS Action Replay.

If they do (since they've done one for every other GB, GBA and DS I'm sure it's inevitable) that could probably be set up to wipe this pesky locked-down save file, re-lock levels or set all of the stats on the game back to zero value - on this game or any other where it's problematic for those who want to start fresh.

If they do and it does, it'll be a must-have investment for those who find these kinds of save features to get in the way of how they like to play their games.

[emceelokey]

YOu know what can completely screw up Capcom right now with this? With every retailer there's usually a 7 day exchange policy for new games meaning within 7 days you can exchange the game for another of the same. If you were to play the game for an hour and save data on the game and return it and exchange it for another one and do the same, those games with the save data on them are officially no longer in new condition and can no longer be restored to like new condition essentially making them pre owned. Now if a store ends up with 10 copies of this game where there's now save data that cannot be deleted, if they try to sell those again at regular price, they will probably get a few pissed off customers and the cycle of returns will continue and either the store is going to take an all sales final policy with that game or just send them all back to Capcom because it's going to end up costing the store.

So basically if you did end up buying this game, play it for a bit, return it, play that one for a bit and exchange it again and if you want you can sabotage Capcom's attempt to diminish used game sales.

[The 1 2 P]

Last I read yesterday was that Gamestop was actually still going to accept used copies of this game as store credit. So I guess they don't see it as big of a problem as everyone else does.

[importaku]

Maybe Datel will make a 3DS Action Replay.

If they do (since they've done one for every other GB, GBA and DS I'm sure it's inevitable) that could probably be set up to wipe this pesky locked-down save file, re-lock levels or set all of the stats on the game back to zero value - on this game or any other where it's problematic for those who want to start fresh.

If they do and it does, it'll be a must-have investment for those who find these kinds of save features to get in the way of how they like to play their games.

Don't need to wait for Datel theres already a device out there to back up & restore DS&3DS saves.
http://www.hkems.com/product/nintendo/0907.htm

[Kiddo]

Hey, folks.
I didn't look entirely through this specific thread yet, but I read about this in another forum and it prompted me to make this Satellablog article;

http://superfamicom.org/blog/2011/07/comparing-the-satellaview-to-the-current-gen-my-fears-about-drm/

I think the points in the article are one that aren't commonly brought up among the standard morality and economics debates, so I hope it's an interesting read for everyone here (although I think it was slightly tainted by some of the sources being shady.)

Hopefully it's constructive.

EDIT: Actually went back and read some of the thread.

Did you just...? Really? LMAO
http://www.gametab.com/images/ss/ds/6442/box-l.jpg

I didn't buy this either. Their name being on the box doesn't help, even if Playmore were 100% at fault, skipped testing and solely screwed it up. Capcom got a cut and also didn't field any obligation whatsoever IIRC. This wasn't a CDi vs Nintendo contract farce either. They could have helped, or pulled.

I'll do ya better on this.
http://www.fightersgeneration.com/games/sf-revive.jpg
Nothing was more frustrating than me trying -not- to unlock an Akuma fight in arcade mode because it'd -crash my game and screw with my save RAM data-. WTF, Capcom?

[Frankie_Says_Relax]

I think that ultimately the reviews on this title are SO mediocre/middling that (as I expected) the fervor that had flared up in the community just as quickly fizzled.

Also, a Capcom spokesperson was recently quoted something along the lines of "we won't likely be seeing a save feature like this in future releases." I believe I read it on Kotaku. I'll find it later and post citation then.

So, the community's anger apparently had the desired effect, not on the existing product but on future projects.

[heybtbm]

So, the community's anger apparently had the desired effect, not on the existing product but on future projects.

It's funny how some developers can be so sensitive to the gaming community and feel like they HAVE TO change something...when the actual outrage could probably be measured in the 100's. Basically 1% of 1% of the people who ultimately bought the game.

Same thing with Infamous 2 and the "redesign" of Cole. Sucker Punch caved after a few forums and articles mocked the new look of the main character. I'm just surprised how the internet magnifies non-issues into perceived real issues...and how developers sometimes fall for it.

[digitalpress]

It's funny how some developers can be so sensitive to the gaming community and feel like they HAVE TO change something...when the actual outrage could probably be measured in the 100's. Basically 1% of 1% of the people who ultimately bought the game.

I learned a long time ago that it's that 1% that you need to listen to. Indifferent or satisfied customers tend to stay that way and offer nothing to a company's growth or improvement process. Customers that challenge you will make you think and do better next time.

Or another way to look at it is "the squeaky wheel gets the grease".

[kainemaxwell]

I can see this backfiring quickly.

[rbudrick]

Super Monkey Ball 3-D for the 3DS does not let you erase the save data. Shame, since it is a 3-hour game tops.

-Rob