Digital Press /Portable/ Rarity Guide

[swlovinist]

What a great idea, and badly needed. I am very happy to see some the best videogame guides around possibly make the jump to digital. Count me in, and will contribute when I get paid.

[portnoyd]

Are those Kickstarter tier rewards for real? They're kinda... off the wall especially at some of the mid tiers.

[ProgrammingAce]

I really sound like a wet blanket lately, but 3 months to write a database front end?

Do you have mobile device programming experience?

[Nz17]

I really sound like a wet blanket lately, but 3 months to write a database front end? Do you have mobile device programming experience?

I have been programming since elementary school. I am well versed in C++, PHP, and Python. I have also created some programs in Java, C, JavaScript, and scripting languages such as DOS batch and Linux Bash. I have programmed cross-platform graphical programs using SDL and FLTK. I have also created a small yet unreleased Android application.

The estimate of three months for development time is not "just" for writing a database front-end. If that was the case I've already written a database front-end for the Collector's Guide using MySQL. The time period is a purposeful overestimation to account for learning the finer details of the knowledge I'll need to refine an application that is not just a connection to a SQLite database but is also easy, intuitive, and dare I say it, fun to use. This is also to allow for the required time to learn two API's (PhoneGAP and its underlying JavaScript API, JQuery) which I do not normally use.

And of course I'll be asking for feedback from our beta testers to not just eliminate bugs, but to make the GUI a friendly, good looking, and native-feeling experience. Getting lots of feedback and releasing often to our beta users in an iterative release methodology is a high priority to me to maximize ease-of-use. Don't worry, I won't let this look like "programmer art" nor will I compromise my code to cut corners to save time in the short term which will cost much time in the long run.

[98PaceCar]

What happens to the money that the app generates once it is released?

[Kid Ice]

If I donate $850 can I have a sightseeing tour of NJ and Atlantic Coast boat ride with TV's Hasselhoff?

[Damaramu]

Sorry. DP, aside from the Sega-16 refugees who quickly left once their site was back up, has been a ghost town as of late.

Maybe it's just me, but I'm not sure people want to plunk down money on something that has been out of date for the last few years. I've noticed repeated requests for the guide to be updated in the past and I'm not sure if anythings happened with it.

I could be wrong about that though. It's a cool idea for an app, I'm just not sure I'd use it.

:|

[Bojay1997]

I guess I just don't really see the point. If you have an Android or iOS device that you are using in the field, chances are you have Internet access and given how outdated some of the DP info is, you're probably better off just doing a completed Ebay search or even doing a Google search which will pull up discussions relevant to whatever you might find from a variety of websites. Most people I know have unlimited data plans and my Droid X has great battery life.

I also don't think it's reasonable to expect us to donate so you can buy a computer, Android device, insurance, rent, etc...If the app is going to be free, I could see raising enough to cover maybe 80 hours of your time at say $30 an hour or $2400. Otherwise, I have no problem paying $5 for it once it's released, but people shouldn't have to do both.

[Gameguy]

I get the idea of checking prices while out and about, but I haven't relied on the DP guide in ages as the prices haven't been accurate in years. I still use the rarity part of it but when buying games I'm more interested in the prices than rarity if I'm not wanting it for my personal collection(or else I would just buy what I want regardless of rarity or value).

I don't even have a smart phone so I can't use this app anyway. I guess I'm just a bit annoyed with how useless the guide has become in recent years, I used to use them back when they were printable PDF pages so I've been using the guide for awhile. The whole point of making it online was so it could be updated often, instead it rarely gets updated but at the same time it's regularly down so I can't use it when I need it.

Basically what portnoyd said in another thread is true, the site isn't updated as often as it used to be. The guide is rarely updated, there haven't been any new articles posted in years(I used to read them all the time), and there's been no Mystery Sound for the longest time.

It's kind of funny how you worded the costs. It will only be $5....after you pay more money now. That and your reasoning why to use this instead of a printed guide, like printed guides are easy to lose or damage. Not like a phone, nobody ever loses those and they're indestructible. LOL

[goatdan]

Well gamers and game collectors, to be honest I am depressed: after three days, we haven't received a single contribution... not even one dollar.

,,,

Oh well, at least some people have spoken in support of my idea.

Feel free to leave comments in this thread.

Since you asked for some thoughts, here are mine...

First off, I like the idea and if I wasn't as broke as can be right now I would be willing to put a little something toward seeing it happen. Having said that, here's some things to think about:

- Do many classic gamers have smart phones? I really don't know -- personally, I just recently picked myself up a PDA, so an app like this would do me no good. I'm not sure if old school game collectors generally have a newfangled phone or not.

- Unless I'm just looking at buying to resell, I would think that a more 'checklisty' thing would be a better overall tool. I do look to buy to resell, but I think I'm in the minority in that running a game site and all. And, 95%+ of the places I buy at know what they are doing with their pricing anyway, so knowing rarity doesn't help. A nice app that would show me which games I have an am missing at any point in time would be great. I keep a TXT file on my PDA with what I'm most after at any given moment.

- While the DP rarity guide is great for rarity, the pricing has always seemed to be off to me. Again, if this doesn't have a built in checklist feature, and the prices are somewhat off (and updated yearly with a fee-based style thing), the functionality goes way down. If that copy of Donkey Kong Country 3 is an R1 or an R2 is way less important to me as a collector than if I have it or not, and is way less important to me as a reseller than if it is currently getting $25 online or $20 online.

Based on all that, while I think it is a neat idea -- although again, not one I could use with the current PDA set up -- I think that it doesn't benefit anyone enough with what you've explained so far to really entice them into paying for it. I'd suggest rethinking the main design, maybe looking for more input on it to make it even more useful to people, and then seeing if the tune changes. I would LOVE to find an app of some type that could catalog my collection well for me no matter what the platform -- I don't like Cart Commander or whatever it is called much, and I don't like the online ones, so I keep a giant TXT file on my computer instead. Finding a solution to make an app that would nicely show me rarity, collection and so on would be great, and I'd happily pay for it. Hell, it might be what would push me into finally buying a smart phone!

Hope this helps!

[Gamereviewgod]

I actually just looked for DP on the Android app store for the hell of it the other day, then found this when browsing here today.

After reading all of the comments, I agree with most of it. Maybe not the outdated nature; the content is still valuable. I think in the long run it would be easier to just have a mobile version of the site, trimming the fat and maybe offering the guide and forums, nothing else, all built for mobile. That would be helpful. You can see what AVSForum did with their mobile app to get an idea of what I'm picturing.

[horseboy]

It is too easy just to transfer the info into a spreadsheet. There is no reason to pay for anything.

[stonic]

Those of us who have our 10 year merit badges know the forum vibe isn't the same, and some of our most prolific posters from years ago have moved on. The same goes for those who used to write the DP Feature Columns. That is the nature of things. However, parts of the site continue to be updated, such as the Easter egg compendium and Library sections, and new interviews are still being posted. DP probably now hosts more printed material, such as magazines and newsletters, than anybody. If you looking for articles, the latest run of DP newsletters (2009-10) was full of new reviews and columns - all of which are online.

Also, the 8th edition of the "classic" Collector's Guide IS coming out later this year, with a full update of the online DPG info to follow. "nz17" has also revamped the interface used for updating the online rarity guide, so editors will see their changes take effect immediately.

Lastly, rather than bemoaning the fact that something hasn't been updated, why not contribute something? Write an article, or a review for a game that we don't have. Offer to take over the Mystery Sound contest or the Ebay Insanity contest. Everyone has a MILLION things to do in their lives, and nobody has ANY time do anything. Those of us who keep the site alive, whether it's maintaining the server, moderating forums, or whatever, don't get paid for our efforts. But those who'd rather complain than contribute won't find much of an audience at DPHQ.

[Frankie_Says_Relax]

Support get!

Not sure how I missed this one.

Great idea! I would love to have the guides in an app format.

Android is great but get an iOS version out there as well/next.

[Bojay1997]

Those of us who have our 10 year merit badges know the forum vibe isn't the same, and some of our most prolific posters from years ago have moved on. The same goes for those who used to write the DP Feature Columns. That is the nature of things. However, parts of the site continue to be updated, such as the Easter egg compendium and Library sections, and new interviews are still being posted. DP probably now hosts more printed material, such as magazines and newsletters, than anybody. If you looking for articles, the latest run of DP newsletters (2009-10) was full of new reviews and columns - all of which are online.

Also, the 8th edition of the "classic" Collector's Guide IS coming out later this year, with a full update of the online DPG info to follow. "nz17" has also revamped the interface used for updating the online rarity guide, so editors will see their changes take effect immediately.

Lastly, rather than bemoaning the fact that something hasn't been updated, why not contribute something? Write an article, or a review for a game that we don't have. Offer to take over the Mystery Sound contest or the Ebay Insanity contest. Everyone has a MILLION things to do in their lives, and nobody has ANY time do anything. Those of us who keep the site alive, whether it's maintaining the server, moderating forums, or whatever, don't get paid for our efforts. But those who'd rather complain than contribute won't find much of an audience at DPHQ.

While I think your points are valid, there is just no getting around the fact that there are a number of clear reasons nobody is rushing to pour money into this project. There just isn't much demand for it. As such, rather than simply ignoring all of the well articulated explanations for why people can't or won't support it at this time that have been laid out above, perhaps the OP would be well served to take a step back and see if his plan could be revised to address these concerns. Failing that, perhaps his time and efforts could be put more effectively into updating other aspects of the site that are more critical to the majority of the dwindling audience here and perhaps that could spark new interest and membership.

Kickstarter is an amazing tool, but it should never be used as a means of notifying the vast majority of a potential audience to a project. Discussions should be had before hand to determine whether something is needed or wanted long before a fund drive is put together. Frankly, it also seems very risky to distract energy and funds from the museum effort by launching a second project at exactly the same time. Perhaps someone from the team at DP could do a sticky post in one of the main forums outlining which projects or aspects of the site could use some extra help so that people with relevant skills can volunteer to take them on. I think most active users on here would be happy to contribute, but simply saying repeatedly that there is lots to do is not helpful in directing that energy.

[Frankie_Says_Relax]

While I think your points are valid, there is just no getting around the fact that there are a number of clear reasons nobody is rushing to pour money into this project. There just isn't much demand for it. As such, rather than simply ignoring all of the well articulated explanations for why people can't or won't support it at this time that have been laid out above, perhaps the OP would be well served to take a step back and see if his plan could be revised to address these concerns. Failing that, perhaps his time and efforts could be put more effectively into updating other aspects of the site that are more critical to the majority of the dwindling audience here and perhaps that could spark new interest and membership.

Kickstarter is an amazing tool, but it should never be used as a means of notifying the vast majority of a potential audience to a project. Discussions should be had before hand to determine whether something is needed or wanted long before a fund drive is put together. Frankly, it also seems very risky to distract energy and funds from the museum effort by launching a second project at exactly the same time. Perhaps someone from the team at DP could do a sticky post in one of the main forums outlining which projects or aspects of the site could use some extra help so that people with relevant skills can volunteer to take them on. I think most active users on here would be happy to contribute, but simply saying repeatedly that there is lots to do is not helpful in directing that energy.

While I understand the points you make here, I hope you'll pardon my amusement at the irony of a forum member who has personally taken the time and effort to not only volunteer his personal time to aide in the maintenance and functionality of the site (which was literally physically failing before he and others worked to help move it, evaluate the problems surrounding bugs/errors/etc. and bring it up to a level of stability) but also with the revision and further proliferation of the DP Guide (in this case bringing it to the realm of smart-phones/apps).

I get that this can easily be scoffed at by many here with the sentiment "we don't want it/we don't need it" (which seems to be a running theme lately when new projects are discussed) ... but what nz17 is doing for the community is relatively epic, even in what some consider to be a low point of on-site community activities or a time of exodus for many forum veterans.

While it may not be particularly appealing/desirable for some who have vocalized it here and elsewhere, to write it off under the assumption that nobody would use it is silly. I'm sure there are an equal number of people who would similarly be disinterested in an analog version of the guide, but that doesn't mean that one shouldn't be compiled/published on a semi-regular basis.

Furthermore, this does appear to be a well thought out project which incidentally specifically includes a level of detail on the budgetary break-down that many criticized Joe for omitting in the Museum project. And, since Kickstart is a risk-free endeavor from a pledging standpoint I see no harm whatsoever in attempting to solicit assistance from the community in this fashion. But, hey, that's just me and that's just my opinion.

And where the concept of bringing in new members in to the "community" is concerned, what's to say that the DP name being exposed to millions who may search the Android/iOS marketplaces for keyword "classic video games" won't help bring new community members into the fold?

I certainly can not argue with the fact that there are many that vocally miss the community-centric topics, contests, and activities that helped DP members bond/grow in the past, but as far as I know those were all volunteer activities/roles/duties in the past and they continue to be in the present.

Would we stand in the way of anybody who wants to run 12 days of Christmas, the Mystery Sound contest or the Zine? I don't think so ... at least I've never seen any such resistance from those who are in the position to say "Go for it!" ... so, why not just let this one play out on its own?

Even failure by way of not attaining a Kickstart funding goal shouldn't be considered a failure on all counts ... I still think that a live-update-friendly digital proliferation of the guide is a goal for the future that should not be ignored.

*shrug* I don't know...I just see somebody going above and beyond and in what seems like a trend, those efforts are questioned at best and scolded at worst by the community that the efforts seek to benefit. That's just my take on it. I'm not saying you're wrong and I'm right ... I just can't help but feel that sometimes this community is its own worst enemy.

[stonic]

Failing that, perhaps his time and efforts could be put more effectively into updating other aspects of the site that are more critical to the majority of the dwindling audience here and perhaps that could spark new interest and membership.

My post is in response to all the 'non-app' complaints people have mentioned in this thread, and how people are welcome to help out with the site. You read and even quoted my post, and yet still somehow didn't learn anything from it. Maybe YOUR time would be better spent helping out, yes? It's a simple formula - the more people that help out and contribute to something, the better the end result is.

Or you can, ya know, continue to sit back and complain like others.

[Bojay1997]

While I understand the points you make here, I hope you'll pardon my amusement at the irony of a forum member who has personally taken the time and effort to not only volunteer his personal time to aide in the maintenance and functionality of the site (which was literally physically failing before he and others worked to help move it, evaluate the problems surrounding bugs/errors/etc. and bring it up to a level of stability) but also with the revision and further proliferation of the DP Guide (in this case bringing it to the realm of smart-phones/apps).

I get that this can easily be scoffed at by many here with the sentiment "we don't want it/we don't need it" (which seems to be a running theme lately when new projects are discussed) ... but what nz17 is doing for the community is relatively epic, even in what some consider to be a low point of on-site community activities or a time of exodus for many forum veterans.

While it may not be particularly appealing/desirable for some who have vocalized it here and elsewhere, to write it off under the assumption that nobody would use it is silly. I'm sure there are an equal number of people who would similarly be disinterested in an analog version of the guide, but that doesn't mean that one shouldn't be compiled/published on a semi-regular basis.

Furthermore, this does appear to be a well thought out project which incidentally specifically includes a level of detail on the budgetary break-down that many criticized Joe for omitting in the Museum project. And, since Kickstart is a risk-free endeavor from a pledging standpoint I see no harm whatsoever in attempting to solicit assistance from the community in this fashion. But, hey, that's just me and that's just my opinion.

And where the concept of bringing in new members in to the "community" is concerned, what's to say that the DP name being exposed to millions who may search the Android/iOS marketplaces for keyword "classic video games" won't help bring new community members into the fold?

I certainly can not argue with the fact that there are many that vocally miss the community-centric topics, contests, and activities that helped DP members bond/grow in the past, but as far as I know those were all volunteer activities/roles/duties in the past and they continue to be in the present.

Would we stand in the way of anybody who wants to run 12 days of Christmas, the Mystery Sound contest or the Zine? I don't think so ... at least I've never seen any such resistance from those who are in the position to say "Go for it!" ... so, why not just let this one play out on its own?

Even failure by way of not attaining a Kickstart funding goal shouldn't be considered a failure on all counts ... I still think that a live-update-friendly digital proliferation of the guide is a goal for the future that should not be ignored.

*shrug* I don't know...I just see somebody going above and beyond and in what seems like a trend, those efforts are questioned at best and scolded at worst by the community that the efforts seek to benefit. That's just my take on it. I'm not saying you're wrong and I'm right ... I just can't help but feel that sometimes this community is its own worst enemy.

I agree with you to some extent and people should be encouraged to pursue whatever projects they feel would benefit the community, but I am also someone who has seen a lot of people with good intentions come and go over the years and sadly, good intentions can actually cause a lot of distraction and sapping of energy, especially at a critical time when financial resources need to be 100% focused on the biggest initiative the DP team has ever taken on.

Just to clarify, as I read his proposal, he is going to only develop the app for Android right now and I would assume an iOS version would require a separate fund raising and development effort. While I am an Android user, many other collectors I know are iOS users or use other mobile operating systems including Windows Mobile and Symbian. As such, he has already limited the value of this particular application to a subset of a small niche community to begin with. It seems like the suggestion someone else brought up to create a more universal mobile version of the DP site would better address this issue.

I think another critical issue here is that he is looking for people to pay for his investment of time up front and is asking us to buy him a new computer and Android phone which is not something I have seen other people do here or elsewhere in classic gaming communities. In fact, the only time anyone has ever asked for this type of compensation up front that I can think of is when someone dumps a prototype, but even then, it's to compensate the owner for the loss of value which will be suffered once it's dumped and widely available. It's not a completely charitable effort and I'm not saying it's an inappropriate approach necessarily to expect some compensation for hard work, but it's not like he is stepping forward and assuming all of the risk or volunteering his time.

Finally, I find it troubling that the OP posts several times lamenting the fact that people aren't contributing and then ignores most of those posts explaining why people aren't sold on the idea, instead focusing on the fact that in one week, only a single contribution has been made. Certainly, he is free to continue the fund raising efforts, but I have learned over the years that sometimes it's much more powerful to take a step back, admit you made some mistakes and then regroup to take another shot at something with the benefit of advice from other people.

[Frankie_Says_Relax]

I agree with you to some extent and people should be encouraged to pursue whatever projects they feel would benefit the community, but I am also someone who has seen a lot of people with good intentions come and go over the years and sadly, good intentions can actually cause a lot of distraction and sapping of energy, especially at a critical time when financial resources need to be 100% focused on the biggest initiative the DP team has ever taken on.

Just to clarify, as I read his proposal, he is going to only develop the app for Android right now and I would assume an iOS version would require a separate fund raising and development effort. While I am an Android user, many other collectors I know are iOS users or use other mobile operating systems including Windows Mobile and Symbian. As such, he has already limited the value of this particular application to a subset of a small niche community to begin with. It seems like the suggestion someone else brought up to create a more universal mobile version of the DP site would better address this issue.

I think another critical issue here is that he is looking for people to pay for his investment of time up front and is asking us to buy him a new computer and Android phone which is not something I have seen other people do here or elsewhere in classic gaming communities. In fact, the only time anyone has ever asked for this type of compensation up front that I can think of is when someone dumps a prototype, but even then, it's to compensate the owner for the loss of value which will be suffered once it's dumped and widely available. It's not a completely charitable effort and I'm not saying it's an inappropriate approach necessarily to expect some compensation for hard work, but it's not like he is stepping forward and assuming all of the risk or volunteering his time.

Finally, I find it troubling that the OP posts several times lamenting the fact that people aren't contributing and then ignores most of those posts explaining why people aren't sold on the idea, instead focusing on the fact that in one week, only a single contribution has been made. Certainly, he is free to continue the fund raising efforts, but I have learned over the years that sometimes it's much more powerful to take a step back, admit you made some mistakes and then regroup to take another shot at something with the benefit of advice from other people.

Yeah, good points and they're fair enough, though I assume you got the crux of what saddens me about the way people are generally reacting to rally calls on things like this these days.

Even if we break this one down into component parts - and decide that the necessity of a new computer and android device aren't reasonable requests for the community to fund his "development process", perhaps somebody could offer to lend him a powerful enough machine and Android phone/device for the duration of the development process.

Those who know me know that I'm a big proponent of not squashing positive momentum, and where a flaw is recognized - thinking outside of the box to help it/fix it instead of stomping on it. Not that you're specifically doing that, but that's quickly where I see this thread going when it COULD be going towards thinking of positive ways of assisting that doesn't shoot the whole concept to bits.

[wingzrow]

This is the greatest idea ever. Let's hope the prices get updated frequently though, some of the prices on the old digitpress guide are very out of date. I think this may make me get a smart phone, it was only a matter of time. Then again, if I already HAVE a smart phone then I could just look up eBay prices on the spot.

do you think you might support barcode scan support like eBay redlight eventually? I would be great to find a boxed game, take a picture of the barcode, and then know exactly what the game is worth/what rarity it is just from that.

[Bojay1997]

My post is in response to all the 'non-app' complaints people have mentioned in this thread, and how people are welcome to help out with the site. You read and even quoted my post, and yet still somehow didn't learn anything from it. Maybe YOUR time would be better spent helping out, yes? It's a simple formula - the more people that help out and contribute to something, the better the end result is.

Or you can, ya know, continue to sit back and complain like others.

That's where we fundamentally disagree. I don't think anyone other than perhaps the OP is complaining. People are just responding to the complaints of the OP that people aren't contributing by explaining why that might be. Nobody is telling him not to do anything or preventing him from continuing his fund raising efforts. Personally, I just think having a second fund raising campaign going on when the museum campaign is only 1/4 of the way funded is distracting and not a good use of resources. There's no reason this couldn't have waited for another 45 days or been structured in a different way so as not to directly compete for financial resources using the same exact Kickstarter method.

There are times when people with excess time and energy should be asked to hold back for a little while so that the timing and planning behind something can come together properly. As an example, I remember a few years ago when I was president of the local Rotary Club and we did a housing revitalization for a low income family. We had a group of kids from the local middle school who volunteered to help with the project. Having never worked with a large group of middle school kids, I failed to realize that all that energy has to be directed or it can lead to disaster. In fact, the kids happily painted the house and removed rotted boards on the porch in record time. Unfortunately, they used the interior paint on the exterior and removed most of the porch rather than just the few boards that needed to be replaced. We had to hire a professional painter and carpenter to repair the "help" they had given us. They had the best possible intentions and donated their time and gave it their all, but ultimately, they did a lot of damage because we didn't reign in and properly direct all that positive energy. Just because someone can do something doesn't necessarily mean that they should or that it has to be done right now.

I believe that people who do something as simple as participating in discussions on these forums on a daily basis provide the single most valuable contribution to DP and frankly, having an active and vibrant discussion forum in my opinion is the only way that this community can be revitalized. I have found people generally to be very generous with their time and money here at DP and elsewhere in the classic gaming community, but they are also pretty savvy and won't just jump on everything that comes along. I'm happy to help out in any way you need me to, but I would love to know specifically how I can help instead of being expected to come up with my own projects. I'm sure there are other people who are equally willing to help out, they just need some direction and structure.

[stonic]

In fact, the only time anyone has ever asked for this type of compensation up front that I can think of is when someone dumps a prototype, but even then, it's to compensate the owner for the loss of value which will be suffered once it's dumped and widely available.

Who is the prototype owner in question who feels this way? Dumping a prototype has very little - if any - affect on the value of it, any more than distributing copies of it does. Unless more than 1 prototype of the game exists, the original retains its value with collectors. Even rare, released games are not affected by having been dumped, copied, and distributed. The ROM images for such Atari VCS/2600 games like Air Raid, Cubicolor, Music Machine, and Video Life have been available for years, yet original copies of those not only are still worth thousands of dollars, their values over the past 5 years have either remained the same or increased.


That's where we fundamentally disagree. I don't think anyone other than perhaps the OP is complaining. People are just responding to the complaints of the OP that people aren't contributing by explaining why that might be. Nobody is telling him not to do anything or preventing him from continuing his fund raising efforts.

:? YOu JUST got done telling him his time would be better spent doing other things...
And no, complaining on forums isn't akin to contributing.

[Bojay1997]

Who is the prototype owner in question who feels this way? Dumping a prototype has very little - if any - affect on the value of it, any more than distributing copies of it does. Unless more than 1 prototype of the game exists, the original retains its value with collectors. Even rare, released games are not affected by having been dumped, copied, and distributed. The ROM images for such Atari VCS/2600 games like Air Raid, Cubicolor, Music Machine, and Video Life have been available for years, yet original copies of those not only are still worth thousands of dollars, their values over the past 5 years have either remained the same or increased.

I generally agree with you on rare released games as people generally want the original for their collection, but I have to respectfully disagree with this as it pertains to prototypes. The difference in market demand and value for a prototype before and after it's been dumped, especially for NES and later stuff, is very significant.

[Bojay1997]

Who is the prototype owner in question who feels this way? Dumping a prototype has very little - if any - affect on the value of it, any more than distributing copies of it does. Unless more than 1 prototype of the game exists, the original retains its value with collectors. Even rare, released games are not affected by having been dumped, copied, and distributed. The ROM images for such Atari VCS/2600 games like Air Raid, Cubicolor, Music Machine, and Video Life have been available for years, yet original copies of those not only are still worth thousands of dollars, their values over the past 5 years have either remained the same or increased.



:? YOu JUST got done telling him his time would be better spent doing other things...
And no, complaining on forums isn't akin to contributing.

I did nothing of the sort. What I said is that perhaps he should take a step back to absorb the feedback and direction from the people he is complaining won't support his project financially. If he didn't want to do that, I suggested that perhaps he would be better off contributing to the community in another way and I should have further explained that by that I meant something that was not subject to such feedback or required people to support it financially. I still am not seeing any complaining here other than by the OP. People are discussing his idea and why they aren't contributing to it financially. Those aren't complaints, but rather rational statements of fact and opinion.

[Frankie_Says_Relax]

There are times when people with excess time and energy should be asked to hold back for a little while so that the timing and planning behind something can come together properly. As an example, I remember a few years ago when I was president of the local Rotary Club and we did a housing revitalization for a low income family. We had a group of kids from the local middle school who volunteered to help with the project. Having never worked with a large group of middle school kids, I failed to realize that all that energy has to be directed or it can lead to disaster. In fact, the kids happily painted the house and removed rotted boards on the porch in record time. Unfortunately, they used the interior paint on the exterior and removed most of the porch rather than just the few boards that needed to be replaced. We had to hire a professional painter and carpenter to repair the "help" they had given us. They had the best possible intentions and donated their time and gave it their all, but ultimately, they did a lot of damage because we didn't reign in and properly direct all that positive energy. Just because someone can do something doesn't necessarily mean that they should or that it has to be done right now.

I don't see this project as being heavy in the risk/damage area similar to the story you described.

There's nothing to damage in this process that I can see other than (potentially) the feelings of the developer.

But even IF it doesn't reach funding goals it can continue to be "developed" technically/conceptually and funding re-started at a later, more appropriate date.

Also, while the timing of this fund-raising attempt does seem to butt-up-against and/or run directly parallel with the Video Game History Museum, which could divide some financial backing interest from those with limited funds, it doesn't look like it's taking anything away from the Museum backing.

Also also, from what I can see it does appear that nz17 solicited some good community opinions several months back:

http://www.digitpress.com/forum/showthread.php?goto=newpost&t=151173

So, where the need for new computer/android hardware is debatable (I genuinely have no clue what is needed when developing something like this) if anything I can only see the timing of this being a potential issue, and that may have been one that nz17 and Joe thought would work better in tandem than separately/spaced out ... but only they can confirm that.

[Gameguy]

Those of us who have our 10 year merit badges know the forum vibe isn't the same, and some of our most prolific posters from years ago have moved on. The same goes for those who used to write the DP Feature Columns. That is the nature of things. However, parts of the site continue to be updated, such as the Easter egg compendium and Library sections, and new interviews are still being posted. DP probably now hosts more printed material, such as magazines and newsletters, than anybody. If you looking for articles, the latest run of DP newsletters (2009-10) was full of new reviews and columns - all of which are online.

Also, the 8th edition of the "classic" Collector's Guide IS coming out later this year, with a full update of the online DPG info to follow. "nz17" has also revamped the interface used for updating the online rarity guide, so editors will see their changes take effect immediately.

Lastly, rather than bemoaning the fact that something hasn't been updated, why not contribute something? Write an article, or a review for a game that we don't have. Offer to take over the Mystery Sound contest or the Ebay Insanity contest. Everyone has a MILLION things to do in their lives, and nobody has ANY time do anything. Those of us who keep the site alive, whether it's maintaining the server, moderating forums, or whatever, don't get paid for our efforts. But those who'd rather complain than contribute won't find much of an audience at DPHQ.
Since most of this seems to be aimed at what I said I might as well reply to it.

I wasn't planning on replying to this at all, I only did because the OP replied how he was surprised that nobody had donated anything at that point. That's why I mentioned the things I did, that and because of one of the things he said. There's more but I'm not going to quote everything.

Why should I use the Digital Press Portable Rarity Guide instead of some other collector app?

Besides for the long and prestigious history of Digital Press as the de facto authority on games' rarity and prices and being the go-to place for all things video games and collecting...
Looking through the guide as it is I can't see it as the authority on pricing like the OP describes, and while Digital Press certainly has a prestigious history I pointed out that the majority of things that set it apart from other sites or forums/communities are long dead. As for all things video games, I check out articles and reviews from other sites instead, honestly I never found the basic reviews here to be accurate in terms of my own tastes. If I was skilled at writing articles I would have contributed some of my own, I enjoyed reading the ones here but I read ones on other sites now so that void has been filled. Again I wasn't planning to complain, I just wanted to point out why people weren't donating money as much as the OP hoped.

That and the whole thing sounds like a pitch on an infomercial. If you can't contribute funds we should tell everyone we know about the app. What happens if we do? They'll check out the current guide now to see if the app is worth buying, they'll see the current guide is innaccurate and just forget about buying the app when it comes out.


Once the updated guide comes out it would be nice to check it for accuracy. Looking through the guide it seems that several errors I previously pointed out over a year ago have been corrected which is nice to see, I'm not sure when that happened but I'm happy about it. Still I see entries like Shantae listed at $5 so I can't really rely on prices, even if most are accurate how can I know if an entry is one that's accurate or one that's not? Either I already know the value of a game or I have to check another site to verify it, I could just avoid the DP listing all together and get an accurate price estimate.

Plus what about non-US games? Will those have rarities and prices added? Or part numbers? When I found a bunch of PC Engine games I couldn't find the name of them here as I can't read Japanese and the part numbers weren't listed, luckily I found a PC Engine site that had a database which included the part numbers so I could look them up. This is the type of stuff where I could use a guide on the go, I already know prices for obvious stuff like Snatcher or Panzer Dragoon Saga but not many imports. None of this stuff was mentioned in the pitch, all that was described was that the app will contain lots of rarities, prices, easter eggs, etc. I took it that the app was going to be the online rarity guide as is, the main reason described as why to use this instead of the online guide is because you won't need internet access to use it.


I still stick around because I like the forums and the people here, I haven't really checked out anything else in awhile and I don't really have a need to. I'm not into video games as much as I was 10 years ago or even 5 years ago, I just don't need to research stuff like I used to. I'll still check out the library though, I didn't know it was still being updated, on the main page the last interview listed was from 2006 which threw me off because I just kept checking the main page for updates.

[Flack]

Would we stand in the way of anybody who wants to run 12 days of Christmas, the Mystery Sound contest or the Zine? I don't think so ... at least I've never seen any such resistance from those who are in the position to say "Go for it!" ... so, why not just let this one play out on its own?

I'm all for letting this "play out on its own," but all the things you mentioned were done by people who volunteered their time. I don't believe anyone paid Kid Ice's rent while he was editing the zine, or bought Grand Am Chandler a computer for running the 12 Days of Christmas. And I know I never got a cent for running the MAME Club ... or writing for the Zine ... or writing for the DP Wire ... or writing Extended Play ... or writing MAMExpose ... or managing the articles section ... or writing the original DP Mailing List from scratch ... or getting the DP Room of Doom Gallery up and running ... or calling tech support night after night to have the DP server rebooted ... etc.

Like anyone else who's ever donated any of their talents of time to making DP a better community, I gladly did all those things for free because I felt like I was reinvesting my time into a site that I loved. To be honest I'm sure I'm not even in the top 20 list of people who have worked on this site for free in their free time. Guys like Stonic and Arcade Antics and some of those guys have put hundreds if not thousands of hours into this site.

So, sorry, it seems a little like apples and oranges to me. And it feels a little awkward to donate toward an app that's using the DP collection lists, which (a) are available free here for download, and (b) were compiled by a bunch of DP forum members, none of whom were (as far as I know) compensated for their hard work.

The outcome of this specific Kickstarter (not the museum one) will be interesting, and I wonder how many people will continue to work on DP projects without being compensated?

[Frankie_Says_Relax]

I'm all for letting this "play out on its own," but all the things you mentioned were done by people who volunteered their time. I don't believe anyone paid Kid Ice's rent while he was editing the zine, or bought Grand Am Chandler a computer for running the 12 Days of Christmas. And I know I never got a cent for running the MAME Club ... or writing for the Zine ... or writing for the DP Wire ... or writing Extended Play ... or writing MAMExpose ... or managing the articles section ... or writing the original DP Mailing List from scratch ... or getting the DP Room of Doom Gallery up and running ... or calling tech support night after night to have the DP server rebooted ... etc.

Like anyone else who's ever donated any of their talents of time to making DP a better community, I gladly did all those things for free because I felt like I was reinvesting my time into a site that I loved. To be honest I'm sure I'm not even in the top 20 list of people who have worked on this site for free in their free time. Guys like Stonic and Arcade Antics and some of those guys have put hundreds if not thousands of hours into this site.

So, sorry, it seems a little like apples and oranges to me. And it feels a little awkward to donate toward an app that's using the DP collection lists, which (a) are available free here for download, and (b) were compiled by a bunch of DP forum members, none of whom were (as far as I know) compensated for their hard work.

The outcome of this specific Kickstarter (not the museum one) will be interesting, and I wonder how many people will continue to work on DP projects without being compensated?

Sorry if my position was unclear ... I wasn't attempting to make a qualitative comparison of past/present DP volunteer contributers to nz17's call for donations.

I was more addressing the fact that nobody in a position to do so ever told those people not to manage the zine, not to run the xmas contests, not to organize the secret santa, make the mystery sound page, etc. because there was little/no "need" or "interest" in those things.

Maybe I'm reading into it wrong, but I just feel that there's a wicked defeatist attitude in the face of proposed new projects lately.

Where the volunteer segment of the DP community is concerned, working for free is an excellent & noble thing for sure, there's no argument there.

All of us who have contributed to DP through volunteering on the website, the guide, the forums, IRC, NAVA, the DP Store, local events, CGE, PAX, E3 all deserve a huge pat on the back ...

... however, from what little I know about ground-up software development the choice to ask for donation-based funding on this project seems reasonable to me, and in a no-risk situation like Kickstart, ultimately there's no damage to be done if it doesn't reach its goal.

But even if people do think a call for donations is not appropriate, why not - instead of offering up cash - offer some positive creative solutions like lending of materials/hardware to offset the need for monetary donations?

Isn't that what a community like this is supposed to do? Help each other where there's a common goal?

[goatdan]

Lastly, rather than bemoaning the fact that something hasn't been updated, why not contribute something? Write an article, or a review for a game that we don't have. Offer to take over the Mystery Sound contest or the Ebay Insanity contest. Everyone has a MILLION things to do in their lives, and nobody has ANY time do anything. Those of us who keep the site alive, whether it's maintaining the server, moderating forums, or whatever, don't get paid for our efforts. But those who'd rather complain than contribute won't find much of an audience at DPHQ.

I'm not sure if you were directing this at me or not, but I was offering some suggestions based on the fact that nz17 was asking for them. I wasn't trying to step on any toes or anything like that.

The fact is, I personally don't have much time to devote to much of anything nowadays. It's why I post relatively rarely on here. I spend my free time raising my young son, running the GOAT Store, and organizing the Midwest Gaming Classic. I'd love to have a bunch more hours of free time, but I don't.

I will say this though -- I learned a long time ago and still believe it to this day, the best projects that you can do are ones that you feel really strongly about. With the MGC, there have been times where other organizers have come to me with things that I don't necessarily agree with doing. If by challenging them, they can come back with a better plan and they are still convinced to do it, usually I end up agreeing with them. If by challenging them, they drop the idea right away, it means that it wasn't that great of an idea to begin with. I can sit on the phone and have discussions (or 'debates') with other organizers that from an outside standpoint would look like we were fighting, but at the end of the day, it makes for a better show and everyone knows that.

Even when I first started posting here, I thought that the price guides were off. That isn't a knock on anyone -- it's just that prices fluctuate like mad, so trying to put a price on anything for a year at a time is a tough proposition, I think. I still appreciate that the rarity guides are there, and sometimes I will use them to try to better figure out the price or rarity of a game that I just picked up for putting it up on the GOAT Store. But, if the goal is to make the DP guide the standard for pricing, I think it needs to be stepped back from and looked at.

From another hobby I have, pinball, there are some people who put out a price guide every year. In looking at that guide, there are almost always games that seem to be grossly either underpriced or overpriced. It's tough to get a guide that really works for everyone and everything, and it is something that I don't envy anyone for trying to do. Having said that, in today's day and age of Amazon, eBay and the Internet in general having seemingly one of everything for sale at any given point in time, it makes me wonder if price guides are even something you really can do any more.

Before the rise of online sales, I feel like the Funcoland papers were a great way to price things -- you could pick one up, and theoretically at least find that game for that price at a Funcoland. But, with the online marketplace being a free marketplace, it makes it a lot more difficult. A rarity guide I think is a lot easier to do, and potentially more useful too.

Having said that, I see a lot of games go through my hands every year, and even I don't think I would be comfortable trying to write up a rarity guide for many consoles. It is a massive, massive task, and one which sadly I do think lends itself more to having people challenge each other to figure out which things are wrong and slowly working itself out right than anything else.

I'd love to help improve those guides -- I've talked with Joe in the past about how I'd like to eventually have the DP rarity on each product page so people knew right there, and I do for the most part feel like the rarity is pretty much spot on -- but I really don't know how much I would feel comfortable doing.

Again though, I like the idea -- but if it could be tweaked to be a rarity guide with checklist, with the option for me to make the checklists custom to be the things that I am interested in collecting, it would be awesome for me. I have not (and don't want to) spend the time to add the PAL Dreamcast games to my PDA one at a time, but I'd be all over it (and paying for it!) as an app for a device, if I had said device. I hope we can use constructive criticism to make the device even better.

[ProgrammingAce]

If you're asking for a salary for the app up front, the app should be free in the marketplace. You're asking for the community to pay you to produce the app, then asking them to pay again to use it.

I don't find myself agreeing with a lot of directions DP has gone the last few years, this one just seems insulting. You're taking 10 years of work volunteered by other individuals and using that to make a profit for yourself.

Instead of using the app as read-only, make it actually useful and interesting. If you're going to give people access to the DP database, allow them to make updates and corrections straight from their phone. People are complaining about the database inaccurate, you're not thinking of ways to help fix it. Granted, someone will have to verify the changes, but that's why you're making $5 a copy. Justify your paycheck somehow.

[stonic]

If you're going to give people access to the DP database, allow them to make updates and corrections straight from their phone.

There's never been a consensus over prices or rarity values, and you want to give everyone the ability to change them?! Not just no, but hell no.

[ProgrammingAce]

I've said for years that prices should be removed from the database anyway. rarity is subjective, but at least let people edit missing games, spelling errors, etc... People complain about the guide being wrong, give them a way to fix it.

[Nz17]

Preface: this is going to be a long post.


I don't think anyone other than perhaps the OP is complaining.

Just like everyone else here, "I'm not complaining." I'm just lamenting the state of things and acknowledging those who have vowed to contribute to give them thanks.


Personally, I just think having a second fund raising campaign going on when the museum campaign is only 1/4 of the way funded is distracting and not a good use of resources.

I'm sure that as I have Joe's direct approval on this matter that he is fine and dandy with it. Actually, from his perspective he is worried that the Museum project is overshadowing the App project! Personally I see them as two very different things for different audiences so there should be little danger of "toe stepping" but rather a positive synergy. I hope the app actually brings attention to all of the other facets of Digital Press to a new audience to help grow the existing audience.


There's no reason this couldn't have waited for another 45 days or been structured in a different way so as not to directly compete for financial resources using the same exact Kickstarter method.

Behind the scenes, there are very good reasons for this project happening now.


I'm happy to help out in any way you need me to, but I would love to know specifically how I can help instead of being expected to come up with my own projects. I'm sure there are other people who are equally willing to help out, they just need some direction and structure.

Just take the initiative like I did back around October 2010 or so and send a Private Message to The Leader, Joe Santulli (DigitalPress on the forum) and ask how and where you can help.


This is the greatest idea ever. Let's hope the prices get updated frequently though, some of the prices on the old digitpress guide are very out of date.

Yes, those online and printed copies are quite old for the most part. However I have personally crafted and already deployed software which, when mass utilized this summer/fall, will cause the Guide to be as up-to-date as the Master Copy and then some! Plus with its ease-of-use, the Guide will be kept as recent as digitally possible by its Trusted Contributors.


do you think you might support barcode scan support like eBay redlight eventually? I would be great to find a boxed game, take a picture of the barcode, and then know exactly what the game is worth/what rarity it is just from that.

Exactly, we will eventually have this feature + 1... for you see, many games are missing boxes or UPC codes, so this app will recognize games from the cover alone as well!


Kickstarter is an amazing tool, but it should never be used as a means of notifying the vast majority of a potential audience to a project. Discussions should be had before hand to determine whether something is needed or wanted long before a fund drive is put together.

Like five months ago?


Frankly, it also seems very risky to distract energy and funds from the museum effort by launching a second project at exactly the same time.

The App project was launched eight days after the Museum project, and the App project will end twenty-one days before the Museum one. That's hardly the same. What do you want, us to wait until we know the Museum is a success? That's quite some time away!


Perhaps someone from the team at DP could do a sticky post in one of the main forums outlining which projects or aspects of the site could use some extra help so that people with relevant skills can volunteer to take them on. I think most active users on here would be happy to contribute.

I'm all for that.


I've said for years that prices should be removed from the database anyway. rarity is subjective, but at least let people edit missing games, spelling errors, etc... People complain about the guide being wrong, give them a way to fix it.

There's a site for that at http://vgcollect.com/ - feel free to help out that community project if you wish as they do appreciate contributions. But as for the DP Guide, there's a whole forum section here dedicated to pointing out needed changes. Have at it.


Just to clarify, as I read his proposal, he is going to only develop the app for Android right now and I would assume an iOS version would require a separate fund raising and development effort.

You shouldn't assume, you should reread. As noted in my initial posts on this subject, "However the underlying technology which will be used to create the app, called PhoneGap, is fundamentally cross-platform in nature and allows for easy release to additional platforms. Therefore upon the success of the Android version further versions for other popular platforms will be rapidly released."

Why "upon the success of the Android version?" Because those app purchases' revenue will be used to fund the purchase of an Intel-based Macintosh computer, as unlike Windows Phone 7, Blackberry, WebOS, Android, etc., iOS is the only one which requires a more expensive and uncommon Mac.

So no, there won't be any additional fundraisers for this app if this first fundraiser is successful. The app will be self-sustaining for future releases.


It seems like the suggestion someone else brought up to create a more universal mobile version of the DP site would better address this issue.

It might, but that wouldn't support the Guide or its Contributors. And though it hasn't been mentioned until now, proceeds from app sales will be finding their way back to the Contributors and Digital Press too to help fund the site and other projects. As for mobile site usage, I suggest Opera Mini or Tapatalk.


I think another critical issue here is that he is looking for people to pay for his investment of time up front and is asking us to buy him a new computer and Android phone which is not something I have seen other people do here or elsewhere in classic gaming communities.

I'm sorry, but I need to prototype and debug the app somehow, and a viably modern computer and actual hardware running Android OS are the most direct route. I only have a ten year old computer here which while good for basic development and Web surfing is inadequate for running the Android SDK or emulator.

And if you haven't seen people in the classic gaming community ask for money up-front for projects, you need to look harder or wider.


It's not a completely charitable effort and I'm not saying it's an inappropriate approach necessarily to expect some compensation for hard work, but it's not like he is stepping forward and assuming all of the risk or volunteering his time.

Should I assume all risk while volunteering, or should we not have a "first penguin?" I'd rather not be orca food.


Finally, I find it troubling that the OP posts several times lamenting the fact that people aren't contributing and then ignores most of those posts explaining why people aren't sold on the idea, instead focusing on the fact that in one week, only a single contribution has been made.

Most of those people did not closely read what I wrote in the first post or the Kickstarter page and are mentioning things that are not really a major dilemma. Either that, or saying they don't have a smart phone or Android device or would pay for something like this, in which case, why listen to people who aren't your customers? I am more concerned with what those who do have a smart phone and are willing to pay for this app want.


You're asking for the community to pay you to produce the app, then asking them to pay again to use it.

Stop spreading this myth and actually read the Kickstarter page. At the $5 contribution level, you get a copy of the app for your pledge. Yes, that's right, PEOPLE WILL ONLY PAY FOR THE APP ONCE. Contribute now and get the app right on day one, or sit on your thumbs and get the app down the road. Either way, same price.


You're taking 10 years of work volunteered by other individuals and using that to make a profit for yourself.

What, are you going to next bemoan about people making money from Web sites on the Internet? Clearly those are technologies created by the collaborative efforts of volunteers with others building atop them with no compensation to the original contributors. Or the fact that the printed Guides see cash go to those who organize DP's efforts and isn't distributed down the chain to all the volunteers who are Guide Contributors who choose to devote their spare time and effort at no charge? Perhaps the Printed Guides and the Online Guide and the app will all manifest themselves out of our collective good will instead of requiring work and money? Some people are willing to take that cost as a lump on the chin and try to make it back after years of effort, but I'd rather ask for the community's help.

And further to the point, I am giving 15% of all the profits from app sales back to Joe to use as he sees fit. I was hoping the "community" would give me the benefit of the doubt and not think I would just take without giving. Mayhaps Joe will use that money to pay for the substantial hosting costs of this site, a Web site which has been nothing but a financial burden since the beginning. Perchance those funds might be used to compensate Guide Contributors, or maybe to financially back the Museum. The choice is up to him. But don't dare say I don't or won't give back.


If you're going to give people access to the DP database, allow them to make updates and corrections straight from their phone. People are complaining about the database inaccurate, you're not thinking of ways to help fix it. Granted, someone will have to verify the changes, but that's why you're making $5 a copy. Justify your paycheck somehow.

My "paycheck" doesn't need to be justified, and that isn't what's being justified here anyway. ProgrammingAce, have you ever even developed a commercial app for sale? The cost of the Price Guide app - which is not pure profit in the bank as most app stores take 10%-30% and that doesn't include investment in hardware or worker's time - is for the cost of development and continued development of the app and new features. A widespread and open contribution channel from hundreds or thousands of users would be much more work to manage than developing and improving the software itself! And as I am merely the potential developer, I don't have a call on how Guide information is handled - that is Joe's call, and he chooses to prefer a cadre of 60 trusted contributors instead of relying on the thousands of unknowns.


Again though, I like the idea -- but if it could be tweaked to be a rarity guide with checklist, with the option for me to make the checklists custom to be the things that I am interested in collecting, it would be awesome for me. I have not (and don't want to) spend the time to add the PAL Dreamcast games to my PDA one at a time, but I'd be all over it (and paying for it!) as an app for a device, if I had said device. I hope we can use constructive criticism to make the device even better.

GOATDan, read the original post again. A checklist feature to mark the games you have, want, and have for trade, as well as condition, included items, and notes for each, will be an included feature.

Thanks for your interest, everyone! :)

[portnoyd]

My "paycheck" doesn't need to be justified, and that isn't what's being justified here anyway. ProgrammingAce, have you ever even developed a commercial app for sale?

He has, they're called Tony Hawk Ride and Tony Hawk Shred. You may have heard of them. Not to mention working on BFA. While on a higher scale than your project, I think it's fair to say he knows what he's talking about.

I do agree that the fundraising effort for the app is poorly timed versus the museum app. It could have waited until the museum kickstarter period ended. I also agree with Flack that of all the DP initiatives, why does this one need funding?

[Frankie_Says_Relax]

If you're asking for a salary for the app up front, the app should be free in the marketplace. You're asking for the community to pay you to produce the app, then asking them to pay again to use it.

I don't find myself agreeing with a lot of directions DP has gone the last few years, this one just seems insulting. You're taking 10 years of work volunteered by other individuals and using that to make a profit for yourself.

Instead of using the app as read-only, make it actually useful and interesting. If you're going to give people access to the DP database, allow them to make updates and corrections straight from their phone. People are complaining about the database inaccurate, you're not thinking of ways to help fix it. Granted, someone will have to verify the changes, but that's why you're making $5 a copy. Justify your paycheck somehow.

The fact that contributers of $5 and above don't have to pay for the app on its release aside,

you do realize that the analog guides are/were not 100% charitable projects which similarly took years of work volunteered by individuals and published them in a sale-able format?

I'm not certain what the profit margin is/was on the analog guides (if at all) but even if JUST the cost of printing was paid to the printers, A.) there were community-involved individuals who (I assume) contributed to the guide database with knowledge that it could/would be sold in some form and that they'd not be receiving any direct monetary compensation and B.) parties/contractors were involved in the production of the guide (printers) that saw some level of financial compensation for their work.

If nz17 wants to consider his work on this akin to the analog printer who printed, bound and shipped the guides to Joe, I think that's fair. He's providing a service on his own time that Joe and/or the community can not that requires some level of financial support. He's clearly detailed why he needs hardware in the process. If you don't want to donate, nobody is twisting your arm.

I don't recall any similar public outcry over the analog guides ... though, granted based on the age of those projects there may have easily been some that I'm just unaware of.

Just devil's advocate, did you make any level of profit on your BioForceApe project, or is it 100% calculated to be the cost of materials only?

[stonic]

I've said for years that prices should be removed from the database anyway. rarity is subjective, but at least let people edit missing games, spelling errors, etc... People complain about the guide being wrong, give them a way to fix it.

Personally I'm with you - I'd rather see rarity values, and the DPG did do away with prices once, actually. But people cried a river over it, so they were put back in. The DP Guide prices and values are just that - a guide. They're not stone tablets from Mount Sinai. As nz17 already mentioned, there's been a dedicated forum here for years for all DPG-related questions and concerns:
http://www.digitpress.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=14

[skaar]

There's actually no way to give away free copies of the app in the marketplace after publication, devs get 50 codes tops for promo/etc.

Android I guess you could spread the APK around.

This really seems an odd direction to take on this whole process - unless you're buying devices to test on this seems more like something that would be taken on in someone's own time and profited from after release rather than a cash up front project. Do you have dev costs/subcontractors to pay on this?

[Frankie_Says_Relax]

There's actually no way to give away free copies of the app in the marketplace after publication, devs get 50 codes tops for promo/etc.

Android I guess you could spread the APK around.

This really seems an odd direction to take on this whole process - unless you're buying devices to test on this seems more like something that would be taken on in someone's own time and profited from after release rather than a cash up front project. Do you have dev costs/subcontractors to pay on this?

Hmmm...

AFIAK unless they've changed the way that the OS functions since I was an Android user, users could easily install the app with an APK installer (no fancy jailbreaking or anything needed) if nz17 wanted to distribute the commercial release that way to those who have pledged.

The only drawback being that it won't be tied to the marketplace to recognize OTA patches/updates. But, he could just as easily send updates that way as well.

[skaar]

They could install with the APK installer, that's never a problem. It's on iOS the functionality's limited.

[ProgrammingAce]

There's a site for that at http://vgcollect.com/ - feel free to help out that community project if you wish as they do appreciate contributions. But as for the DP Guide, there's a whole forum section here dedicated to pointing out needed changes. Have at it.


So you're spending all of this time to make an app that uses and relies on the DP database and the only way to submit a correction is to go to a PC, log in to DP, post on a forum, and hope that one of the database maintainers fixes it. Instead of using the application that's already in their hand...






Why "upon the success of the Android version?" Because those app purchases' revenue will be used to fund the purchase of an Intel-based Macintosh computer, as unlike Windows Phone 7, Blackberry, WebOS, Android, etc., iOS is the only one which requires a more expensive and uncommon Mac.


Since you're asking for donations to purchase a new PC, why not buy the Mac from that? You could do the Android and iOS versions from the same system, and not require the purchase of an additional PC.




Should I assume all risk while volunteering, or should we not have a "first penguin?" I'd rather not be orca food.


How is this volunteering? You're being paid up front, and after the application is delivered. You're asking everyone else to take the risk. We have to trust that after paying you $4,600, you'll produce an app. It seems a reasonable risk, but the risk is on us, not you. Take a look at sourceforge for all the applications that started with good intentions, but were never completed.




Stop spreading this myth and actually read the Kickstarter page. At the $5 contribution level, you get a copy of the app for your pledge. Yes, that's right, PEOPLE WILL ONLY PAY FOR THE APP ONCE. Contribute now and get the app right on day one, or sit on your thumbs and get the app down the road. Either way, same price.


Maybe i wasn't clear. I'm not claiming you're charging any individual twice, but the community as a whole. Your only real audience for this app is the DP community, which is the same community you're asking for donations from. On that note, how exactly will you be giving the free copies of the iOS version to the people who donate? As Skaar said, you have a limited number of free codes for a published iOS app.




What, are you going to next bemoan about people making money from Web sites on the Internet?


This is just rude and disingenuous.



ProgrammingAce, have you ever even developed a commercial app for sale?

Yes, as any long time and active member of the community should be able to tell you...


The cost of the Price Guide app - which is not pure profit in the bank as most app stores take 10%-30% and that doesn't include investment in hardware or worker's time - is for the cost of development and continued development of the app and new features.

You're asking for DP members to pay all of your upfront costs, including the hardware and worker's time. It seems improper to use that as a justification for the cost of the app as well...

[Frankie_Says_Relax]

They could install with the APK installer, that's never a problem. It's on iOS the functionality's limited.

Ah. Thought you were talking about Droid.

Where iOS is concerned, if the maximum number of free developer codes is exceeded nz17 can just send a "gift purchase" of the app to anybody who pledged, cost for that can come right out of the development fund, and if he starts off the pricing of the app with a launch sale within the first 24 hours or so, it can even minimize that as an expense.

There's always creative solutions where these things are concerned.

[skaar]

They discourage the gifting/etc. in most storefronts unless they're getting their cut of downloads. That 30% profit, excluding bandwidth costs...

I think if at least a working demo/alpha could be produced there would be more interest in the product - it's near impossible to get funding with just a project outline, particularly with such high aspirations.

[Frankie_Says_Relax]

They discourage the gifting/etc. in most storefronts unless they're getting their cut of downloads. That 30% profit, excluding bandwidth costs...

I think if at least a working demo/alpha could be produced there would be more interest in the product - it's near impossible to get funding with just a project outline, particularly with such high aspirations.

An iOS App Store "gift purchase" is a full price paid purchase with no discount, I'm not really sure why they'd discourage it.

nz17, when the product is Alpha, will you make it available to community members who want to participate in testing?

[Nz17]

He has, they're called Tony Hawk Ride and Tony Hawk Shred. You may have heard of them. Not to mention working on BFA. While on a higher scale than your project, I think it's fair to say he knows what he's talking about.

I suppose I need finer accuracy to explain what I meant. Despite the commercial nature of those games, what I was referring to was the specific development and deployment of applications for mobile platforms. I don't doubt that ProgrammingAce is a programmer - his opinions make this easy to know - nor do I doubt him capable of making a mobile app.

What my statement was trying to point out is that there is much more to the commercial success of a program than just the programming, and there are all sorts of pitfalls and gotchas in the world of mobile development especially when considering deploying on multiple platforms. The ronin developer is not to be envied for he needs to be PR, marketing, programming, business, art, and more all rolled into one.


So you're spending all of this time to make an app that uses and relies on the DP database and the only way to submit a correction is to go to a PC, log in to DP, post on a forum, and hope that one of the database maintainers fixes it. Instead of using the application that's already in their hand...

I didn't design the method of creation, I'm just turning it into a useful mobile app. Perhaps in the future something will be made with this idea in mind, but for now that's outside of this app's scope and it would add an unneeded layer of complication to something that doesn't need to be complex.


Since you're asking for donations to purchase a new PC, why not buy the Mac from that? You could do the Android and iOS versions from the same system, and not require the purchase of an additional PC.

Because as the original budget outline clearly demonstrates, only $400 has been allocated for a PC. If you know of a good source for $400 Intel Macs, please enlighten us.


How is this volunteering? You're being paid up front, and after the application is delivered. You're asking everyone else to take the risk. We have to trust that after paying you $4,600, you'll produce an app. It seems a reasonable risk, but the risk is on us, not you. Take a look at sourceforge for all the applications that started with good intentions, but were never completed.

First of all, don't be hating on Sourceforge's projects. Many good men and women started those free of charge and free of restriction, and life doesn't always work out for programs or people. Everyone flocks to the biggies no matter if they are in the open source world or not, and it is difficult to get the attention of people if you aren't gigantic.

Second, I am volunteering because technically voluntarism doesn't have to be at no cost. It just means somebody is willing to undertake a responsibility or action without being forced. And while I'm no professional applications programmer, I imagine that the amount I'm asking for is way under par for this kind of development.

Third, I don't see a dime through Kickstarter unless the $2600 goal is met. That's right, despite the generous contributions we've seen so far, I've still only received $0.00 and it'll stay that way if we don't obtain the grand total. No loss for pledging to a project that doesn't make it.

And why do you seem to have a problem with money being made from this project? Don't you want to see this Web site, as well as all the other DP-branded initiatives, this entire collective of video game knowledge and community, survive past the founder's charity? I know that Joe Santulli likes to pay for this site, the store, the magazine, the guide, and all those other little bits that make up DP, but one day that will stop and then where will we be? And I don't know about anyone else, but I'd like to see Joe's generosity be repaid by having his projects not be a source of financial burden, but actually pay him back ten fold for all he has given. Have others given of their time and effort? Certainly. Of money? Of course. But no one has given more than Joe, and while 15% isn't 100%, he certainly appreciates the giving as he expects nothing back from this endeavor even if it is a huge success.

Fourth, $4600 divided by the 16,743 user accounts here is only $0.27 per person. Even if you only wanted to count the 1,296 active accounts, that's still only $3.55 per person. And shockingly enough, I think 1300 people can stand to have $5 less than one person can stand to be out $4600 by himself. But then again, I did say that this project will go forth even if we only make our $2600 goal, so I suppose all of those numbers should really be less per person.

And I can't see how anyone would consider me untrustworthy. The whole site, nay, the whole server is under my jurisdiction. I don't think I'd be entrusted with such a responsibility if I wasn't deserving of it.


Maybe i wasn't clear. I'm not claiming you're charging any individual twice, but the community as a whole.

OK, how does the community pay twice? Each person who wants a copy of the app pays once, either now or later. Collectively, that means the community pays for the app once. People are free to pledge $5, $100, $0, just wait until the app is released, or pay nothing forever. Nobody is getting short changed.


Your only real audience for this app is the DP community, which is the same community you're asking for donations from.

Funny enough, DP does not encompass the whole audience for this app. There are many game collectors who have never been here who would want this. There are many non-collectors who just want to see what their games are worth or how uncommon they are. And despite the fact that this information is available in a variety of ways, many people prefer the convenience of a mobile app.

Gah, I need to start promoting this at other places more.


On that note, how exactly will you be giving the free copies of the iOS version to the people who donate? As Skaar said, you have a limited number of free codes for a published iOS app.

OK, let's try this again: The only, single fundraiser will fund the Android version. This gets complimentary copies of the Android version to those who contributed. Sales from the Android version past this point fund other versions. Other versions include iOS. There are no "free" copies for iOS. That is because that version won't have a fundraiser.


This is just rude and disingenuous.

I don't see how, nor the difference among them. They are all profitable ventures made possible by the work of volunteers who expect no compensation for their work. And I haven't heard a single Guide Information Contributor complain about this.


You're asking for DP members to pay all of your upfront costs, including the hardware and worker's time. It seems improper to use that as a justification for the cost of the app as well...

Amazingly, you're mixing up two things again. The DP members who pay upfront... get the app at no additional charge. Zilch. But those who want to get the app later, after it is finished, pay $5 to the app store of their choice. And a percentage of this money goes directly back to paying for the Digital Press Web site and other endeavors.

---

All of this typing of responses is taking up valuable time I could be spending on things like improving the Web site or promoting the two Digital Press Kickstarter projects. Therefore I am now only going to respond to those who have or who are thinking of financially contributing to the project. Thus this thread will be split into two: one thread for updates on the project's progress, and another thread for discussion.

[portnoyd]

I just don't understand why this app is becoming your job for 3 months.

EDIT: Just now saw your latest update. "Instead of a regular day job"? Seriously?

[Nz17]

nz17, when the product is Alpha, will you make it available to community members who want to participate in testing?

Hmm, I could see this happening. As you know there will be a Beta period, but I could also see an early Developer Preview (Alpha Version) being released for those who are interested. I would probably limit it to two consoles so people wouldn't think it was the final version.

[Garry Shandling]

Gary Shandling

[Flack]

Fourth, $4600 divided by the 16,743 user accounts here is only $0.27 per person.

To be fair, 15,295 of those are Sega-16 members that only visit when their forum has been hacked.

[RPG_Fanatic]

Fourth, $4600 divided by the 16,743 user accounts here is only $0.27 per person. Even if you only wanted to count the 1,296 active accounts, that's still only $3.55 per person.


I can look up the online rarity guide for free on my iPhone on the internet. So I wouldn't pay $3.55 for something I can look for free and it's only for Android (at first I know) and maybe it will never be made for Apple's app store.

[swlovinist]

I have not always agreed with things that this site has done but feel that this app is a must have, and would love to see it happen. I also know that it is going to take alot of effort and time to see this through, as well as financial support. I cant count the times I wish I had a portable guide with me. As a savvy, thrifty serious collector I am just publicly stating that I want to support this. I am not going to try to change anybody's mind about how they feel about this project, but to just say that this is a good idea. I see alot of good projects that often have differing opinion get shelved or delayed due to heated debate. I myself, who have contributed to the DP advance guide among thousands of others, do not mind paying $5 for this app nor do I mind contributing(end of this month) a little contribution for this project.

[stonic]

... the only way to submit a correction is to go to a PC, log in to DP, post on a forum, and hope that one of the database maintainers fixes it. Instead of using the application that's already in their hand...

Why do you keep pushing this point? I already told you what you're asking for is NOT going to happen. "nz17" can correct me here, but it sounds like his app is a more advanced interface for accessing the information in the guide. It's not going to be for just anyone to edit it however they please - if that ever happened, it would no longer be the Digital Press guide, for one thing. For another, it wouldn't be worth a nickel. You don't seem to have any problem posting lengthy replies to this thread, so why is posting in the DPG forum such an arduous task for you? If you don't like that, well, nobody is stopping you from making your own price guide, "ace".

Did I slam the door on this one?

[Ryaan1234]

It's not going to be for just anyone to edit it however they please - if that ever happened, it would no longer be the Digital Press guide, for one thing. For another, it wouldn't be worth a nickel.

Good lord, Stonic. The very first time Prog mentioned this idea he said (and of course I quote) this:



Instead of using the app as read-only, make it actually useful and interesting. If you're going to give people access to the DP database, allow them to make updates and corrections straight from their phone. People are complaining about the database inaccurate, you're not thinking of ways to help fix it. Granted, someone will have to verify the changes, but that's why you're making $5 a copy. Justify your paycheck somehow.

He was suggesting that someone would moderate said changes. Twice you've accused him of suggesting a free-for-all Digital Press guide and that wasn't at all what he was saying. The idea of an editable DP guide was something he thought would better justify the $5 price.

Besides, I don't see an editable DP guide being that big of an issue! Before you yell at me hear me out! Why can't each person have a unique copy of the DP guide on their own phone/tablet/whatever, and be able to edit the rarities or prices on their own terms? (the edits they made would only effect their copy of the guide) Giving them the ability to edit isn't that bad if it's just their own guide. It would be the same as someone having a print copy, and scratching out the rarity/price and putting their own. Why I dunno, but it's their copy of the guide to do with what they please.

Err anyways... that's my $0.02.

[ProgrammingAce]

If you don't like that, well, nobody is stopping you from making your own price guide, "ace".

I sure as fuck don't want to take a bunch of emails asking for support and updates when Android users see the database is out of date. The average person on the Android marketplace is roughly the same as those who post in the youtube comments. It's not remotely worth the trouble to me.

Besides, it'd be a dick move to steal the project out from under someone who already plans on working on it.

[stonic]

Good lord, Stonic. The very first time Prog mentioned this idea he said (and of course I quote) this:

And twice he stated wanting an app that allowed users to edit the guide, instead of having to post in the DPG forum (go back and read his posts again). Thus, my replies are valid.



Besides, it'd be a dick move to steal the project out from under someone who already plans on working on it.

Did I suggest stealing anybody's info here? No. What I suggested is that you create your own price guide. Call it Programming Ace's Price Guide. Whatever.

Again, I think we're done on this matter.

[portnoyd]

I just don't understand why this app is becoming your job for 3 months.

EDIT: Just now saw your latest update. "Instead of a regular day job"? Seriously?

Seriously?

[skaar]

Seriously?

http://fc09.deviantart.net/fs43/f/2009/154/7/7/Starving_Programmer_by_Felyza.jpg

[GarrettCRW]

Wow, what a clusterfuck this thread, and the idea that spawned it, is.

[Emuaust]

God, where to start in this thread...

For the people who are overly PRO "this is a great idea", instead of blindly shooting down everything that has been said here with blind devotion to Digital Press, try addressing some of these peoples concerns and if you are one of "those" posters who have replied to pretty much every comment without actually adding anything of significance to the conversation, maybe you need to look at your +1 posting habits.

It seems that quite a few of the regulars are a bit perplexed with a number of things. It appears that while the guide has been the tireless work of many volunteers over the years it now looks like somebody is going to profit out of converting this work into a new form.

There is some work involved in getting this app up and running, I understand that, but maybe the DP community could of been asked or polled to ask if there was a someone or a group of someones willing to give there expertise to getting this off the ground, ala the current volunteer model.

The other big question is why android first, has there been a poll to see how many users here have android phones or iphones? or is it simply what is easier for the "developer"?

Other questions such as, are price guides really needed?, can we have some type of submission part to the app to change and update the database? are all valid questions asked by COMMUNITY MEMBERS, you know, the guys you're asking money from...

Simple questions that are in need of simple answers.

Maybe the lines of DP's commercial ambitions and the communities ambitions and or ideals no longer draw parallels to each other and this is why there is such strong debate regarding the direction of DP from the parties involved.

[ProgrammingAce]

For the people who are overly PRO "this is a great idea", instead of blindly shooting down everything that has been said here with blind devotion to Digital Press, try addressing some of these peoples concerns and if you are one of "those" posters who have replied to pretty much every comment without actually adding anything of significance to the conversation, maybe you need to look at your +1 posting habits.

No U.

[portnoyd]

I just don't understand why this app is becoming your job for 3 months.

EDIT: Just now saw your latest update. "Instead of a regular day job"? Seriously?

No, really... seriously?!

[Frankie_Says_Relax]

...The other big question is why android first, has there been a poll to see how many users here have android phones or iphones? or is it simply what is easier for the "developer"?

Since yer askin, here are a few answers for ya son:

Yes, interest was in fact polled five months ago.

Android was the lead/winning platform in the poll.

Every single response was positive and receptive to the concept of a paid app.

http://www.digitpress.com/forum/showthread.php?goto=newpost&t=151173

Can't blame a guy for asking for feedback from COMMUNITY MEMBERS and then running with the results of that feedback, can you?

Well, yeah, obviously you can.

[GarrettCRW]

Someone needs to relax.

[Emuaust]

Since yer askin, here are a few answers for ya son:

Yes, interest was in fact polled five months ago.

Android was the lead/winning platform in the poll.

Every single response was positive and receptive to the concept of a paid app.

http://www.digitpress.com/forum/showthread.php?goto=newpost&t=151173

Can't blame a guy for asking for feedback from COMMUNITY MEMBERS and then running with the results of that feedback, can you?

Well, yeah, obviously you can.

Thank you for your response Frankie, this is your first productive post of the thread, thanks for clearing up quite a few of the unanswered questions.

I also don't see me "blaming" anyone, I was simply highlighting the concerns of some of those who posted in the thread, questions that hadn't been clarified in this thread, I really appreciate your response, its clear and precise and has zero negative undertones.


PS. I would ask you to refrain from calling me "son" I find that rather derogatory coming from yourself.

[ProgrammingAce]

$5 is fairly expensive for an android app, a store where 70% of all apps are free. What kind of sales do you expect?

[Frankie_Says_Relax]

Thank you for your response Frankie, this is your first productive post of the thread, thanks for clearing up quite a few of the unanswered questions.

I also don't see me "blaming" anyone, I was simply highlighting the concerns of some of those who posted in the thread, questions that hadn't been clarified in this thread, I really appreciate your response, its clear and precise and has zero negative undertones.


PS. I would ask you to refrain from calling me "son" I find that rather derogatory coming from yourself.

:roll:

Look.

I support this project as it has been proposed and I take tremendous TREMENDOUS OFFENSE at that support being called "blind" loyalty by you or anybody else.

You're totally entitled to your opinion but you can not speak for me or any other community member that supports this project on any level.

What you can do though, is voice your lack of support by simply not donating.

This really is a pretty democratic process.

If you don't support the app - don't donate.

If the majority of the community doesn't support the app it won't reach its financial goal.

If it doesn't reach its financial goal it won't get produced as fast or possibly at all.

My money is in the coffer and that's all I have to say about it.

[skaar]

I think kicking money towards dev costs and modest payment for the dev is totally reasonable. I think where a lot of people are getting hung up is the (to me) very strange idea of paying someone's living costs for app development directly.

I get it's a fairly inexpensive cost for development but this could just as easily be someone's school project... not a full-time gig. And for the record, I'm involved with the funding or development of a half dozen current Android projects, so this isn't just baseless opinion.

I think the idea is sound of having an application to remotely access the valuation database, I just think the way this project is presented is what's ruffling feathers. I'd expect the programmer to work for salary and profit sharing on app sales, or entirely for costs up front... this has some weird charity/profit mix that would be hard to resolve... particularly since it's selling access to volunteer generated content.

This isn't meant to attack anyone or ruffle feathers, but I feel better having said my piece.

http://media.fukung.net/images/25844/ef67414e232bfb0c3179afa506cdea0a.jpg

Picture not related.

[WelcomeToTheNextLevel]

I think a new Rarity Guide should be put out, and a version be available for Android ($5 sounds reasonable). I know there are things amiss about the current rarity guide; for example, Plumbers Don't Wear Ties for the 3DO is listed as Rarity 3 and worth $12. I haven't seen it much - it's probably rarity 7, not 3 now - and the pricing is much higher; I got my copy for $75, but I'd seen it cheaper a couple months back (about $40). But to its credit, this game has probably gotten much rarer since the AVGN review; those that own it are probably holding on to it more often and selling it for more money when they do sell it. Most games I'd say haven't changed more than about 50% from their value, and haven't changed in rarity more than a point or two at most.

[SegaAges]

This sounds almost like a paid version of what I started years ago. I made collection software on a website, and then I updated it (the code is still behind the scenes), so that it would be more functional and not look like ass on a smartphone.

Had I been given permission to use the online rarity guide (and I fully understand reasons for me not getting permission at the time, so please do not see it as me saying anything negative), that I would have had game collection software and the rarity guide all in one on a website.

I guess the thing I am saying is that there are people out there, and I know I am not the only one, more than willing to setup an all-in-one free website that will handle your collection and the rarity guide if ever given the chance.

I am not saying it is wrong to charge for an Android app, sure, do what you have to do. I am just saying that there are some of us out there willing to make a website with pretty much the same functionality for free and give it out for free.

I am only weighing options here. No, $5 is not very much for an app, but at the same time, free is cheaper.

I mean, if you are downloading an app that says Digital Press on it, hopefully the people using it are smart enough to do a Google search for Digital Press and find the website right away to report issues in the rarity guide. I think allowing people to edit their own will only cause problems and inflation later on.

Person A: I will sell you item X for $100
Person B: well the DP rarity guide app says I should only pay you $25 (i.e. people just going in and editting their own rarity guides and then taking it for the game being that value that they personally set to either sell something for too much money, or try to lowball when buying)

[Frankie_Says_Relax]

... particularly since it's selling access to volunteer generated content.

Your point is reasonable, not hostile/personal and well stated.

I think that it is obvious why people are frustrated/take offense to the way that nz17 has proposed his financial outline and detailed his need for personal expenses/profits. Frankly, they've made that abundantly clear in their responses.

However, regarding your above point, I'll bring this up again since people seem to have completely ignored it -

The guides in their analog form have always been sold for what I assume to be "profit". (I don't believe that each guide cost $25 to physically print.)

The notion that just because individuals volunteered their time/effort to produce data for the guide doesn't mean that a prior precedent has not been set regarding the sale/profit of that work.

First and foremost the printers who made those guides got paid for their work and that payment surely went to supporting the business/lives of those individuals, not DP. Unless, was the printing, binding and delivery of those guides done by a DP community member? If it was, I'm unaware of that fact.

Secondly, can any of us say with 100% certainty that each and every penny that the analog guide made went directly back to supporting the website and community?

While we all know that Joe TIRELESSLY pours his own personal money into the community, the store, the website, NAVA, CGE and eventually the Videogame History Museum, did Joe ever commit to that notion that 100% of guide profits would go back to the community?

Devil's advocate time - ask yourselves, is it possible that Joe hypothetically bought himself some groceries, a case of MGD for NAVA or in part paid a utility bill at some point in time with some incremental amount of profits from the analog guides?

And while we're on the subject, did any of you who had a red guide ever sell it on eBay or on the buying/selling forums for some measure of profit when it went out of print? I've seen those go for well over their original price. If so, how can you possibly live with yourself for profiting off of the work of others?!

I take things like that into consideration in my view of this entire proposal.

A part of a community like this is that there's some level of symbiosis where people supplement their income or livelihood based on the Digital Press name or the channels that this website provides. Whether or not this is an appropriate means of appropriation of DP's time/money is up to you the individual to decide.

If this is the way that it's proposed to be done, I'm fine with that. Historically where DP projects are concerned it's a bit unorthodox but I'm not personally offended by it and I'm more than willing to toss a few bucks into the project to see where it goes.

There's much MUCH to take into consideration when attempting to shame somebody for coming up with a plan like this. It can't be as black and white as people want it to be.

The expectation that this either be a 100% charitable act or that profiteering in any small fashion is some horrible shameful thing deserving of hostility I find to be most unreasonable and I won't participate in it.

And, while I'll gladly personally defend myself and other supporters when highly personal shots are made across my bow, I see no reason to be hostile to those who don't support it.

If you're opposed to the project as it has been proposed, just don't be a part of it. Since it's largely dependent on your support - you'll clearly do more damage to the progress of it with your own personal reluctance to donate.

[SpasticFuctard]

Had I been given permission to use the online rarity guide (and I fully understand reasons for me not getting permission at the time, so please do not see it as me saying anything negative), that I would have had game collection software and the rarity guide all in one on a website.


Bur? The database query is an open API.

[Dangerboy]

The guides in their analog form have always been sold for what I assume to be "profit". (I don't believe that each guide cost $25 to physically print.)

I was not aware that the Digit Press Guides had been released on vinyl or cassette. Did I miss an audio book somewhere?


The notion that just because individuals volunteered their time/effort to produce data for the guide doesn't mean that a prior precedent has not been set regarding the sale/profit of that work.

Here's an observation though, to help put things in perspective and could actually silence a bit of the critics here and let the supporters back down a bit.

Having just flipped through the Advanced Guide, there's 4 pages of sponsors, 10 businesses in total. Considering the pages do say SPONSORS and not FRIENDS, it is safe to assume that these businesses paid money for their space in the book - money of which went to the publication of said book. What if the same approach was taken with the App?

It would go like this:
a. Sponsors are sought out to help pay for the development of the app - if $4600 is needed, at 10 sponsors, each would only need to pony up $460. Less if you have more sponsors. In return for their sponsorship, the App is programmed with a Sponsor page with links to the sponsors web-pages (i.e. gamecollector, game gavel, etc).

The App then, as a FREE download, would have a Nag Screen for a few short seconds that randomly shows one of the sponsors while it loads.

b. With this set-up, the user can then have the option of donating through the App to the Project or the Museum ($5 minimum to whatever they want). If a donation is made, the Nag Screen goes away completely. The Links / Ad page stays regardless.

The Ad Page works in both directions - it give attention to the sponsors, gets them potential customers, and it gets the production costs paid for "in-house." You can even add / remove sponsors as you go.

This way, there's no money out of pocket for the App from the reader, the app is made and paid for, and everyone can go relax* and we can all get back to doing what we love.

*Not a Stab at Frankie. My vocabulary is limited.

[bickman2k]

I was not aware that the Digit Press Guides had been released on vinyl or cassette. Did I miss an audio book somewhere?

I'd pay for an audio book version of the guide.

[Frankie_Says_Relax]

I was not aware that the Digit Press Guides had been released on vinyl or cassette. Did I miss an audio book somewhere?



Here's an observation though, to help put things in perspective and could actually silence a bit of the critics here and let the supporters back down a bit.

Having just flipped through the Advanced Guide, there's 4 pages of sponsors, 10 businesses in total. Considering the pages do say SPONSORS and not FRIENDS, it is safe to assume that these businesses paid money for their space in the book - money of which went to the publication of said book. What if the same approach was taken with the App?

It would go like this:
a. Sponsors are sought out to help pay for the development of the app - if $4600 is needed, at 10 sponsors, each would only need to pony up $460. Less if you have more sponsors. In return for their sponsorship, the App is programmed with a Sponsor page with links to the sponsors web-pages (i.e. gamecollector, game gavel, etc).

The App then, as a FREE download, would have a Nag Screen for a few short seconds that randomly shows one of the sponsors while it loads.

b. With this set-up, the user can then have the option of donating through the App to the Project or the Museum ($5 minimum to whatever they want). If a donation is made, the Nag Screen goes away completely. The Links / Ad page stays regardless.

The Ad Page works in both directions - it give attention to the sponsors, gets them potential customers, and it gets the production costs paid for "in-house." You can even add / remove sponsors as you go.

This way, there's no money out of pocket for the App from the reader, the app is made and paid for, and everyone can go relax* and we can all get back to doing what we love.

*Not a Stab at Frankie. My vocabulary is limited.

This is precisely the kind of productive constructive discussion I was trying to elicit earlier.

If we disagree with how something is proposed, instead of rallying against it, come together with ideas to help make it work better/more effectively.

[skaar]

I'd pay for an audio book version of the guide.

Read by Ben Kingsley.

[Kid Ice]

Y
Devil's advocate time - ask yourselves, is it possible that Joe hypothetically bought himself some groceries, a case of MGD for NAVA or in part paid a utility bill at some point in time with some incremental amount of profits from the analog guides?



Wouldn't matter. Joe put his own money at stake getting the guides printed in the first place. There was no "fundraiser" to pay for his medical expenses and computer.

The "cost" is too high, the demand is too low (the oft-linked thread of 10 or so posts and 19 votes confirms this, but for some reason it is supposed to be evidence of the opposite), and the kickstarter thing is an embarrassing, tacky disaster.

I personally would love to have the app, and would pay for it, up front or after the fact. Unfortunately I don't think there are another 500 or so who would do the same, at least not at this time. A good start would be for someone to develop a prototype on his own dime (like Joe put together the guides on his own dime), let people check it out and decide if it's worth paying for.

That's how it works, not how it SHOULD work or how some of us WANT it to work. You create a worthwhile product then people pay for it, not the other way around.