"Classic" games you never understood the appeal of

[Zing]

I don't really like Crystalis all that much, I tried it back in the day and wasn't too impressed, I tried it again more recently and my opinion remains the same. My main problem with it is the grinding factor, I have to level up 2 or 3 times so I can move to the next area....to grind some more and then some more to successfully defeat a boss. I mean I absolutely loved the first two Ys games and while you had to grind at times, it wasn't anywhere near as bad as it is in Crystalis.

There is actually zero grinding in Crystalis. I played through the game earlier in the summer and maxed my level before reaching the final "dungeon" just from killing almost everything in my path. However, I spent no time "grinding".

[vintagegamecrazy]

For me I don't understand Lufia II, I hate the puzzle solving in it and the visual style, it's just a tedious and boring game to me and the first one is far far better IMO. I also don't like Sonic Adventure very much either, boring and dull to me.

[Aussie2B]

Would any Sega fan suggest that a gamer introduce himself to the Genesis library via Sega Smash Pack for the Dreamcast?

Sure, why not? It would give the wrong impression of the system's sound capabilities (which most people regard poorly, anyway, actually), but beyond that the collection is fine. Granted, I am biased because it WAS my introduction to the Genesis library. Sound issues or not, it didn't keep me from falling in love with Shining Force.

[Doonzmore]

I never got into any of the Tony Hawk Pro Skater games either.

[NerdXCrewWill]

Crystalis is another game I feel like I should comment on. I really, really enjoyed the game for the first couple of hours. I didn't have a problem with grinding really (grinding is fun anyways!), but I did have a problem with one of the dungeons. After you get some of the elemental weapon upgrades, you need to use them on obstacles. This got tedious quick. I can't remember exactly which dungeon it was, but it wasn't very far in the game. I found myself having to go to the menu and selecting a different element every few steps. After about five minutes, I gave up and haven't played since.

[Aussie2B]

I already told exit in the daily playing topic, but, yeah, Crystalis requires next to no grinding.

Switching swords is a part of the game, but there's no need to be doing it constantly. Most of the enemies in a dungeon are of a single element, and the blockades in a dungeon are usually all one element too. Unless you're absolutely obsessed with killing every single enemy that crosses your path, you're best off just walking pass some if it would be too much of an annoyance to switch swords.

[NerdXCrewWill]

I already told exit in the daily playing topic, but, yeah, Crystalis requires next to no grinding.

Switching swords is a part of the game, but there's no need to be doing it constantly. Most of the enemies in a dungeon are of a single element, and the blockades in a dungeon are usually all one element too. Unless you're absolutely obsessed with killing every single enemy that crosses your path, you're best off just walking pass some if it would be too much of an annoyance to switch swords.

Hmm, it sounds like maybe the sword problem isn't as much of a problem in the game as I remembered. Maybe I should give it another try.

[Mr Smith]

Yoshi's Island. Seriously, baby Mario? I cannot understand anybody enjoying that annoying tosh.

[NE146]

Space Invaders is not one of them, but I will gladly play Galaxian (played for hours on end on my Atari 5200 as a child) appreciation for Space Invaders is solely because it was something new, a new experience for everyone at the time, but that doesn't automatically make is a great game, but perhaps a footnote in history.

There's actually quite a bit more to Space Invaders than to a game like Galaxian (which is a pure left/right "dodge bullets, shoot aliens" shmup). There's strategy and tricks to the game (e.g. surviving higher levels, wall of death, rainbows, counting shots, etc.), but yes, if you weren't around when it was actively played by everyone, it's very hard to know that, and just see it on the surface as a slow plodding shooter.

Has it held up over time? ehhh.. that's debatable. I think it's a great game but that's probably because I know it inside and out. It doesn't lend itself well to players today with low patience. I guess back then due to it's newness, people were more willing to pick the game apart and find out all it's hidden goodies.

But there's one thing for sure is it IS a great game, and much more than a footnote. Heck Galaxian is 100% influenced by it but carried over none of the secrets and techniques making it pretty 1-dimensional. Not saying I don't like Galaxian as I definitely do , but the shadow of it's big daddy looms large. :p

[j_factor]

Sure, why not? It would give the wrong impression of the system's sound capabilities (which most people regard poorly, anyway, actually), but beyond that the collection is fine. Granted, I am biased because it WAS my introduction to the Genesis library. Sound issues or not, it didn't keep me from falling in love with Shining Force.

It's not so much impression of the system's sound capabilities, which most people don't give a damn about. It's the fact that the Genesis games included sound really bad. If the original games had sounded like they sound in the Smash Pack, I would've said they had shitty sound. Not in a technical sense, but in a "can't hit the mute button fast enough" sense. Awful, awful sound. Good version of Virtua Cop 2 though.

[Aussie2B]

Your post doesn't make much sense. I take it you're talking composition versus technicality? My point was that a large percentage of gamers think Genesis games have shitty sound, irregardless of the composition (most gamers don't think deeply enough about it to separate the two anyway). Granted, yeah, with Sonic, Streets of Rage, and Shining Force, they're games that are often placed in the "exceptions", but, still, most gamers don't care that much about the sound in their games (I say this as someone that does care about it quite a bit). With everything else about the games intact on the Smash Pack, it's an acceptable way to be introduced to Genesis games (but not Genesis audio). It's not ideal, but, hey, it was a bunch of good games, available legally and without the need to track down old hardware, at a good price.

And, really, when I think about it, when I did get my first actual Genesis, it was a Genesis 3, and with the smeared, terrible RF output, I think that was a worse way to play Genesis than the Smash Pack.

[bangtango]

Your post doesn't make much sense. I take it you're talking composition versus technicality? My point was that a large percentage of gamers think Genesis games have shitty sound, irregardless of the composition (most gamers don't think deeply enough about it to separate the two anyway). Granted, yeah, with Sonic, Streets of Rage, and Shining Force, they're games that are often placed in the "exceptions", but, still, most gamers don't care that much about the sound in their games (I say this as someone that does care about it quite a bit). With everything else about the games intact on the Smash Pack, it's an acceptable way to be introduced to Genesis games (but not Genesis audio). It's not ideal, but, hey, it was a bunch of good games, available legally and without the need to track down old hardware, at a good price.

And, really, when I think about it, when I did get my first actual Genesis, it was a Genesis 3, and with the smeared, terrible RF output, I think that was a worse way to play Genesis than the Smash Pack.

Can't speak for j_factor but the point I was making is that it isn't the best thing for a person to give a blanket statement saying that a certain classic video game isn't very good if their primary exposure to the game was through a less than perfect version or port of it instead of the original.

[j_factor]

Your post doesn't make much sense. I take it you're talking composition versus technicality?

No. I'm only saying that "impression of the system's sound capabilities" is not the issue. How capable a sound chip is, is a pretty arcane subject that most people don't give a thought to. The problem with the Smash Pack is that the sound is bad. Not that it's imperfect emulation. Not compared to the original versions at all. It is unpleasant to hear. I don't know how this doesn't make sense.

[Gameguy]

And, really, when I think about it, when I did get my first actual Genesis, it was a Genesis 3, and with the smeared, terrible RF output, I think that was a worse way to play Genesis than the Smash Pack.
The Genesis 3 came bundled with AV cables, why were you using an RF cable with it? It's not exactly fair to complain about the video quality if you choose to hook it up with a poorer type of connection than intended. Not that the video is that exceptional but I didn't notice anything that horrible with my Genesis 3 hooked up.

[Aussie2B]

No. I'm only saying that "impression of the system's sound capabilities" is not the issue. How capable a sound chip is, is a pretty arcane subject that most people don't give a thought to. The problem with the Smash Pack is that the sound is bad. Not that it's imperfect emulation. Not compared to the original versions at all. It is unpleasant to hear. I don't know how this doesn't make sense.

Yeah, and what I'm trying to say is that most people think that the Genesis has shitty sound anyway, even if they're playing on a real Genesis. I don't agree with them, but that's the way it is. So if they think the audio in the Smash Pack sounds bad, it really doesn't matter when they'd think the same on a Genesis. Therefore, the sound isn't a make-or-break thing. It shouldn't be regardless. Anybody who would call a good game crap just because they don't like the audio is dumb.


The Genesis 3 came bundled with AV cables, why were you using an RF cable with it? It's not exactly fair to complain about the video quality if you choose to hook it up with a poorer type of connection than intended. Not that the video is that exceptional but I didn't notice anything that horrible with my Genesis 3 hooked up.

Was it bundled? I couldn't remember, and in my attempt to look it up, this site seems to suggest that it was the RF cable packed in: http://www.gametrog.com/GAMETROG/HOW_to_connect_Hook_Up_SEGA_Genesis_Model_3_mini.h tml

But anyway, I had to use RF at the time because that's all my TV accepted. Eventually I did use an A/V cable with it, and the quality of that is terrible too. Really, the video output, be it RF or composite, is terrible compared to other systems with any model of the Genesis, but it's especially bad with the Genesis 3.

But I didn't judge games worse because of it. I didn't think their graphics were poor just because the video output was. I still enjoyed games with that slightly crippled experience, no different than with the Smash Pack.

[Drixxel]

I suppose it's really just a difference of opinion about the worth of the Smash Pack. There are undoubtedly others who share j_factor's opinion that the audio is of such abysmal quality on the Smash Pack that the games are unpleasant to play let alone leave running with the sound on. In that case, this pretty well renders the Smash Pack a wretched way for someone to gain a first impression of any of the games featured within it if it's actually causing trauma.

However, I would like to think that someone playing a game for the first time as part of a compilation like the Smash Pack has their expectations in check and doesn't assume that what they're getting is the "true" experience. I think we can all agree that if a person forms a negative opinion of a game from playing a version that is either badly ported or emulated and this criticism is the direct result of that version's shitty optimization, his or hers is an ignorant opinion and pretty much worthless.

[Boltorano]

Sorry, thought this was the Craigslist absurdity thread.

[buzz_n64]

This is a little bit off topic but I thought I'd ask here. How would you sell an item on Craigslist when the other person wants to see it on and working in person, but not have to show them where you live? I can't think of any public meeting places where you would be able to plug in a random extension cord (at least not nearby, no flea markets within a hundred miles) outside.

This was specifically related to a large (30 inch LCD) display I was looking to sell, where people are SUPER picky about discoloring and dead pixels, but could apply to anything electronic that needs to be plugged in, like say, a Vectrex.

Wrong thread and section. But, try public libraries, parks, or basically any place with outdoor outlets.

[Gameguy]

Was it bundled? I couldn't remember, and in my attempt to look it up, this site seems to suggest that it was the RF cable packed in: http://www.gametrog.com/GAMETROG/HOW_to_connect_Hook_Up_SEGA_Genesis_Model_3_mini.h tml

But anyway, I had to use RF at the time because that's all my TV accepted. Eventually I did use an A/V cable with it, and the quality of that is terrible too. Really, the video output, be it RF or composite, is terrible compared to other systems with any model of the Genesis, but it's especially bad with the Genesis 3.

But I didn't judge games worse because of it. I didn't think their graphics were poor just because the video output was. I still enjoyed games with that slightly crippled experience, no different than with the Smash Pack.
It came bundled with a mono AV cable, the system wasn't able to output true stereo like the model 2 so there wasn't really a point to using stereo cables(that link you found shows stereo cables for some reason). You can use RF cables if you need to, they were available for people who didn't have AV inputs. This was also common with the N64 or PS1 too, at least with RF cables being available you could actually use the systems if your TV lacked the AV inputs.

The main TV I use doesn't have AV inputs so I mostly use RF for playing, or I run AV cables through the VCR if the system came with them instead of RF hookups. I've never really been obsessed with having the best picture or sound quality possible so I'm ok with it. Even with RF I don't notice that poor picture quality with the Genesis, I can notice slight differences in quality between different units I have but if I didn't have any other units to compare them to I wouldn't think that they're that bad overall. Were you using official cables or aftermarket cables?

I've never played the Dreamcast Smash Pack so I can't comment on the audio quality. It wouldn't surprise me if the audio was really emulated poorly though.

[j_factor]

Yeah, and what I'm trying to say is that most people think that the Genesis has shitty sound anyway, even if they're playing on a real Genesis.

You're conflating like three things. People think the Genesis has inferior sound, for its time, or compared to other systems, or whatever. But I'm not talking about how the Smash Pack's sound is inferior, I'm talking about how it's crap. NES obviously has much worse sound technically, but it can still be pleasant to hear (or not, as the case may be). But, furthermore, the people we were talking about playing the Smash Pack have no opinion about Genesis sound. The sound is bad, regardless of system. If I had no idea what these games were, and someone gave me the Smash Pack and said they were games for some obscure old computer, I would say "wow, this sounds terrible".

I mean, listen to this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U26lJ-U4vrA This sounds awful. It doesn't matter if you've ever heard the real version. It doesn't matter what you think of the Genesis sound chip, if anything. It doesn't matter what system this was on. This is a game that sounds too bad to even play with the sound on.

[JSoup]

I mean, listen to this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U26lJ-U4vrA This sounds awful.

Holy barf, that is horrible. And it makes me a tad miffed, Vectorman has some of my favorite game music.

[Nature Boy]

When I was younger, making paper maps to beat a game was a cool idea. Now, that just sounds like work...

A fun side note: I just had my 40th birthday recently, and my sister gave me a framed copy of the Zelda II map we had worked on together back in '88.

I was *stunned* to see it again. I remembered that we had my step-mother laminate it and then as far as I was concerned it had vanished. It was amazing to see it again.

(I had long thought it would look great in my games room in the basement and that it was unfortunate that it had disappeared. Sometimes getting what you wished for is actually *good*)

I agree with your sentiment 100% - and it's why, to use my earlier example, I love Super Metroid much more than the original Metroid now, even though at the time I had never even played Super Metroid while I had played Metroid to death.

[bangtango]

A fun side note: I just had my 40th birthday recently, and my sister gave me a framed copy of the Zelda II map we had worked on together back in '88.

I was *stunned* to see it again. I remembered that we had my step-mother laminate it and then as far as I was concerned it had vanished. It was amazing to see it again.

(I had long thought it would look great in my games room in the basement and that it was unfortunate that it had disappeared. Sometimes getting what you wished for is actually *good*)

I agree with your sentiment 100% - and it's why, to use my earlier example, I love Super Metroid much more than the original Metroid now, even though at the time I had never even played Super Metroid while I had played Metroid to death.

You ever see the map of Zelda II's Great Palace online? I know Kasuto.net had it at one point. It is HUGE.

I had a friend who once planned to visit all the rooms, cover every inch of the palace and take out every single enemy one by one. To him, it was the Holy Grail of achievements in NES Zelda. I think he made it through 1/3 of the palace before running out of lives due to the tough enemies.

[Nature Boy]

You ever see the map of Zelda II's Great Palace online? I know Kasuto.net had it at one point. It is HUGE.

I had a friend who once planned to visit all the rooms, cover every inch of the palace and take out every single enemy one by one. To him, it was the Holy Grail of achievements in NES Zelda. I think he made it through 1/3 of the palace before running out of lives due to the tough enemies.

I have not, but I will most definitely try to now.

And to clarify, my map was most *definitely* just the overworld. Doing the dungeons would've been too much work even back then :)

[Zing]

When I recently played through Zelda II, I didn't bother with a map of the overworld. Not because I knew it already, because I actually didn't remember much, if anything. But because it is linear, obvious, and essentially a point-to-point map screen. I did, however, have fun mapping the dungeons. The great palace was a little difficult to map due to all the "falling".

[heybtbm]

Back in the day, I made hand-drawn maps of all the "3D" dungeon sections in Golgo 13. All on graph paper (remember that?). Wish I still had those.

On topic:

I never understood the appeal of any and all Sonic games. I've always been a Genesis guy over a SNES guy, but I've never played a Sonic game past 1 or 2 levels. Too fast and confusing. I hate the start, stop, fast, slow gameplay. It annoys me to this day.

[allyourblood]

I mean, listen to this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U26lJ-U4vrA This sounds awful. It doesn't matter if you've ever heard the real version. It doesn't matter what you think of the Genesis sound chip, if anything. It doesn't matter what system this was on. This is a game that sounds too bad to even play with the sound on.

Mostly, it's the sound effects that offend. I had to play a video of the original Genesis version (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XY0CjXG--S8) to clear my pallet, and it truly shines compared to that Dreamcast... thing.

[bangtango]

I have not, but I will most definitely try to now.

And to clarify, my map was most *definitely* just the overworld. Doing the dungeons would've been too much work even back then :)

I just checked again and it is definitely the Zelda info/fan site www.kasuto.net and it appears they map all of the palaces. Kind of cool.

However, I remember reading a Video Games and Computer Entertainment (VG&CE) strategy guide on Zelda II a long, long time ago in which they mapped at least the first 3 palaces in the magazine, though they may have done the rest since it was a 2 or 3 part guide. I only saw the first issue.

[heybtbm]

However, I remember reading a Video Games and Computer Entertainment (VG&CE) strategy guide on Zelda II a long, long time ago in which they mapped at least the first 3 palaces in the magazine, though they may have done the rest since it was a 2 or 3 part guide. I only saw the first issue.

The Zelda Collector's Edition official guide (http://www.amazon.com/Legend-Zelda-Collectors-Players-Strategy/dp/1930206461/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1314375053&sr=8-1) maps every dungeon in Zelda II.

[pixelsnpolygons]

Super Smash Bros. (Melee, etc.), Kid Icarus. In the case of Kid Icarus it could just be that I played it too late (it was probably around 2003 the first time I played it). Nothing about the game seemed to deserve all of the praise I had been reading for years. It's just an alright game. Super Smash Bros. (any game in the series) I do appreciate in terms of production - they always add a ton of great stuff. However, the mechanics of the game - there's way too much going on, jumping all over the place, falling off platforms, dodging crazy projectiles. It's like what is going on inside the head of a kindergartener. I don't know how anyone could play it for more than 30 minutes a day. And I'll fully admit I'm crappy at the game, but even when I watch videos of people are who good at it it doesn't look fun.

[spongerob]

Super Smash Bros. (Melee, etc.), Kid Icarus. In the case of Kid Icarus it could just be that I played it too late (it was probably around 2003 the first time I played it). Nothing about the game seemed to deserve all of the praise I had been reading for years. It's just an alright game. Super Smash Bros. (any game in the series) I do appreciate in terms of production - they always add a ton of great stuff. However, the mechanics of the game - there's way too much going on, jumping all over the place, falling off platforms, dodging crazy projectiles. It's like what is going on inside the head of a kindergartener. I don't know how anyone could play it for more than 30 minutes a day. And I'll fully admit I'm crappy at the game, but even when I watch videos of people are who good at it it doesn't look fun.

Agree 100%. I'm not good at SSB but even when I see people who are good at it, it just looks like Lotsa Stuff Happening. I could never play it for more than 20 minutes at a time. It felt like the result of showing an eight year old a proper fighting game, and told him to make something fun. He'd just put random shit everywhere, too much of everything and stuff happening all over the screen.

[allyourblood]

Oh yeah, totally agree on Super Smash Bros. It's one of those series that I really want to like, but no matter how many times I try, I can't get into it! I own all three games, and with each newer version I would expect to find some element to latch onto, but it's never there. I love the variety, the collectibles, and the absurd level of fan-service, but the fighting itself feels shallow and haphazard. I can never tell exactly what's going on.

[bangtango]

The Zelda Collector's Edition official guide (http://www.amazon.com/Legend-Zelda-Collectors-Players-Strategy/dp/1930206461/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1314375053&sr=8-1) maps every dungeon in Zelda II.

Uh......oops! @_@