Sweet vintage RGB tv pick-up. TV experts, what do I have?

[Satoshi_Matrix]

I picked up a vintage TV yesterday off kijiji that was too cool to ignore, but I need some help from tv experts to help me figure out what I have to get the most from it. I bought a Panasonic 24" Color TV from 1984 that's loaded with features. I have no doubt in my mind that this would have been one EXPENSIVE tv back then. The TV in case anyone can find any info other than replacement parts is a Panasonic PC-26K79RS.

http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6175/6169253985_a36ab382c7_z.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/56076975@N02/6169253985/)
So check this tv out! it's a 24" CRT with a glass screen protector! I've never seen anything like that outside of arcade cabinets! and it's in such good shape after all these years!

http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6161/6167889229_08e0fb1dcb_z.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/56076975@N02/6167889229/)
This TV oddly has some sort of windowed vents on each side of the tv. What's with that?

http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6154/6167892143_3fee5589c9_z.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/56076975@N02/6167892143/)
This is what caught my eye. Notice where it says RGB?

http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6155/6168430848_43f1e7892b_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/56076975@N02/6168430848/)
The back of the TV. Check out all the inputs this thing has!

http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6169/6167895443_2a48555589_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/56076975@N02/6167895443/)
The right side of the TV has two sets of composite inputs (the first is on the right side) and two others I have no idea what they are/do: "Through Out" and "Program Out". Can anyone help me figure out what these are?

Also note that it's got hookups for external speakers. Pretty cool. I'm going to have to try that.


http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6158/6168511532_c51250c5e0_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/56076975@N02/6168511532/)
Here's the real star of this show - an RGB Panel Box(!).
I don't pretend to be anything of an expert on RGB via tvs, but I know that whatever this is it isn't SCART. I have so many questions about this I don't know where to begin.

There's a switch between RGB (TEXT) and RGB (TTL). What do each of these mean?
What is the olive green 8 pin connector?
What about all those other inputs? What about the YM and YS ports? the more info I can get on everything this panel box does the better!

I'm crossing my fingers I'll somehow be able to use this to perhaps get some RGB system to work. Perhaps there's some sort of TTL to SCART adapter? In any case I just want to figure out what I got. Thanks in advance!

[WesternNYCollector]

That is one magnificent beast there, how is the picture on it, and is that some sort of compartment that the remote control slides into on the top right?

[theclaw]

Yeah I think there's little doubt part of why RGB didn't gain acceptance in the Americas, is a connector was never established. Our few TVs with RGB input may use BNC or any other number of odd looking methods. While yours appears to have not one, but two! From a non-technical eye like mine anyway. Maybe RGB through those RCA jacks is possible...

Most likely that'll still only work for NTSC consoles. My assumption is 50hz support on old CRTs is rare, but I haven't heard much about that.

[nebrazca78]

I surmise that the vents on the side are speaker vents with doors that are designed to be closed when you are using the TV to power external speakers.

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[Emperor Megas]

That thing's a beast; it must weigh a ton. And a screen protector for a CRT? Seriously? I'm sure that thing did cost a small fortune when it wad new.

[burn_654]

I'd say the easiest thing to poke around with is the R,G,B rca connectors and the composite video in - it notes sync. I bet you could make a hybrid rgb/composite cable and use the composite line as your sync.

Either way though, nice piece. I'm sure you probably have enough stuff there to get what you're after. That is a weird green plug...

[nebrazca78]

There's a switch between RGB (TEXT) and RGB (TTL). What do each of these mean? What is the olive green 8 pin connector?


The RGB(Text) / RGB(TTL) switch simply chooses between the two inputs. RGB Text is an analog signal used with older computers that output two-color signals used mostly for text. Depending on the capabilities of the unit it may support white, amber or green text, or all three. RGB TTL is a digital format capable of outputting a maximum of eight colors used with slightly newer computers and uses the olive green eight pin connector, which in this case is a proprietary design.



What about all those other inputs? What about the YM and YS ports? the more info I can get on everything this panel box does the better!


The YM input switches RGB to half-brightness, for video overlay use. The YS input is used to activate the RGB input. I believe you just use terminators to activate the necessary modes.



I'm crossing my fingers I'll somehow be able to use this to perhaps get some RGB system to work. Perhaps there's some sort of TTL to SCART adapter? In any case I just want to figure out what I got. Thanks in advance!


This is not possible because as stated RGB TTL is a digital input. Conversion should be possible but that is not practical. Your best bet is to try and convert SCART to RGB as they are both analog and should be compatible.

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[nebrazca78]

Something like this should work:

http://www.tvcables.co.uk/cgi-bin/tvcables/RGBS-SCART-ADAPTER.html

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[burn_654]

You'd probably want something like this as well:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Scart-Pass-Through-Adaptor-SVHS-3-Phono-RCA-UK-/250694512971?pt=UK_Computing_CablesConnectors_RL&hash=item3a5e8eb14b#ht_1857wt_1396

To get your left/right audio out.

Just a general question: are most SCART accessories you buy going to be wired for pal scart cables or japanese? IE, you get/make the rgb adapter, which region of SCART cable for the console would you need? I'd assume a european one?

[Satoshi_Matrix]

That is one magnificent beast there, how is the picture on it, and is that some sort of compartment that the remote control slides into on the top right?

http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6152/6170332320_3b0f605d59_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/56076975@N02/6170332320/)
Ah you are quite right about the remote! Forgot to mention that. Yes, the remote slides directly INTO the tv and is spring loaded for easy removal. This is such a brilliant design that it's a SHAME that this is the only TV I've ever seen to offer such a handy feature. I dunno about you guys, but I'm always losing the remote and have to dig around for it.

As for picture, well here's some pics I've taken of NES gameplay via composite. The colors seem to be slightly off, but maybe that's because I'm used to seeing NES graphics with HD goggles on. I own a huge library of NES and Famicom games as well as the Powerpak, so I'll take on any requests anyone has for a specific title.

Here's what I've taken thus far.

http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6163/6168494768_7cc6296f43_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/56076975@N02/6168494768/)
Super Mario Bros. 1 - note how blue the sky looks!

http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6177/6170335148_605c580088_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/56076975@N02/6170335148/)
Super Mario Bros. 3 - was the sky always that color?

http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6152/6168493412_17a3930e84_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/56076975@N02/6168493412/)Gradius II - Lookin' good

http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6163/6170331464_837384a065_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/56076975@N02/6170331464/)Rockman 2 also looks spectacular on this tv!


Yeah I think there's little doubt part of why RGB didn't gain acceptance in the Americas, is a connector was never established. Our few TVs with RGB input may use BNC or any other number of odd looking methods. While yours appears to have not one, but two! From a non-technical eye like mine anyway. Maybe RGB through those RCA jacks is possible...

Most likely that'll still only work for NTSC consoles. My assumption is 50hz support on old CRTs is rare, but I haven't heard much about that.

Yeah it's quite a mystery about what's going on here.
I'm not looking to run any PAL hardware, just my PC10 RGB ppu'd AV Famicom and SNES, possibly Genesis. I have European SCART cables for them and am hoping I can adapt them to work on this beautiful old tv.


I surmise that the vents on the side are speaker vents with doors that are designed to be closed when you are using the TV to power external speakers.

Ah, upon investigation thats exactly what's going on. They are speaker vents.


That thing's a beast; it must weigh a ton. And a screen protector for a CRT? Seriously? I'm sure that thing did cost a small fortune when it wad new.

Not only does it have a screen protector, but one of solid glass! I took it off to clean it and look for any scratches and yeah, its not plexiglass, its REAL glass! and considering it was made in December 1984, it's in EXCELLENT condition! Want to hazard a guess how much this tv would have cost when it was new? I'm thinking easily in the high four digits range, even though its only 24".


I'd say the easiest thing to poke around with is the R,G,B rca connectors and the composite video in - it notes sync. I bet you could make a hybrid rgb/composite cable and use the composite line as your sync.

Either way though, nice piece. I'm sure you probably have enough stuff there to get what you're after. That is a weird green plug...

Can you expand on that? I'd love to know more about what you're taking about!


After looking up some information, I think this TV was designed to be used with older computers. RGB TTL seems to be limited to an 8 color mode and RGB Text seems to be for text only. The olive green connector is for RGB TTL as labeled and is a digital input, however this is probably not of much use to you unless you are using an older computer. It seems if you could get or make an adapter this TV could be used with devices that output SCART through the input marked RGB/Text. This is your analog RGB input. It looks like when using the RGB panel you have to choose between composite or RGB, but there are two additional composite inputs so that shouldn't be a problem. Video 1 should always be the RGB panel whether you are using RGB or composite.

What kind of old computer are you talking here? I've never seen this type of connector on any vintage machine from Commodore or even Atari. So even if the TTL is out of the question, do you have any idea what the other inputs of the RGB panel are for? I'd LOVE to get RGB out of this sweet baby. From my own experimenting, it seems pushing the RGB button on the front of the tv switches between the composite inputs and the RGB input. The only way to switch between TEXT and TTL is though the switch on the back. The remote doesn't have anything that mentions RGB. I wonder if it's worth it to try and track down the original manual that came with it? A bunch of sites claim to have it available for order. I think I'll give it a shot.

[Cornelius]

Ah you are quite right about the remote! Forgot to mention that. Yes, the remote slides directly INTO the tv and is spring loaded for easy removal. This is such a brilliant design that it's a SHAME that this is the only TV I've ever seen to offer such a handy feature. I dunno about you guys, but I'm always losing the remote and have to dig around for it.


If the remote is on (or in) the TV, it might as well be in China! /end Homer

Very cool that it is spring loaded!

I don't think the glass covers like on this TV are that unusual. We had a ginormous RCA TV with a glass cover, I think at the time they even called them 'flat screen'. Distortion from large curved tubes was starting to become a talking point for ads and such. And I know I've seen many smaller TVs where a glass cover was more seamlessly integrated into the unit so they look less like an overlay that's screwed on the outside. Maybe they are less common than my experience, though.

Cool pickup in any case!

[nebrazca78]

You'd probably want something like this as well:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Scart-Pass-Through-Adaptor-SVHS-3-Phono-RCA-UK-/250694512971?pt=UK_Computing_CablesConnectors_RL&hash=item3a5e8eb14b#ht_1857wt_1396

To get your left/right audio out.


For sure, I looked for an adapter that also had the audio outputs but I couldn't find one. I don't have much experience with SCART but I thought a SCART device may have RCA audio outputs as well.


What kind of old computer are you talking here? I've never seen this type of connector on any vintage machine from Commodore or even Atari. So even if the TTL is out of the question, do you have any idea what the other inputs of the RGB panel are for? I'd LOVE to get RGB out of this sweet baby. From my own experimenting, it seems pushing the RGB button on the front of the tv switches between the composite inputs and the RGB input. The only way to switch between TEXT and TTL is though the switch on the back. The remote doesn't have anything that mentions RGB. I wonder if it's worth it to try and track down the original manual that came with it? A bunch of sites claim to have it available for order. I think I'll give it a shot.

From what I've read, a lot of older computers have proprietary video outputs. RGB TTL is a standard interface though but not one that is useful to you, it limits you to eight colors plus it's digital. I don't know why you would have a problem using the standard analog RGB inputs. Getting devices to output RGB whether it be through adaption or conversion isn't too hard. Having the manual would be nice but it doesn't seem necessary at this point. I've also updated my second post to include more information.

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[BetaWolf47]

Congrats on that find. For a 1984 TV, that is magnificent. I don't think that color in SMB3 is normal. Most TV's need fine tuning to get an accurate color. In your case, it looks like either the tint or color temperature is off.

[ccovell]

http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6161/6167889229_08e0fb1dcb_z.jpg

Angle these at 45 degrees, and it'll bounce the high frequency sounds towards you rather than muffling them or letting them escape out the rear. I did the same with my PC monitor with little speakers out the back -- I taped paper tabs at an angle and it made a difference with the treble.

Nice looking TV there! Try plugging in the composite from your NES to the RGB/sync inputs to find out if it even displays those components in greyscale.

[burn_654]

Can you expand on that? I'd love to know more about what you're taking about!


As far as I've been reading (note. I haven't personally attempted an RGB setup, but I've read up on the methods for some time.):

Given a console that outputs a native RGB signal over SCART without modification (Genesis and Saturn come to mind. Snes works but you must modify the scart cable.) You have the scart cable from the console going into the adapter that nebrazca posted (and later the one I posted for sound), this will give you ports for individual R,G,B, and Sync. Plug standard rca cables from those into your R,G,B, and composite/sync ports in your RGB Text section. Most are saying that's the one you want to deal with (it's analog).

Now, a lot of rgb monitors have separate H-sync and V-Sync ports but some can take it as one sync signal through a standard composite cable - which looks like the case with your tv.

I'd take ccovell's advice - plug a composite console into the composite sync. A black and white picture will show that it can sync how we want it.
I'm kind of jealous, actually. If that works that's one of the easier setups I've seen.

[Zapf]

I know I've seen that connector in a thread before. You might want to check on shmups forum or nfg games forum, they might have info on the pinout if you wanted to make a custom cable for it.

edit: oh, looks like someone answered your question on parodiusdev already =)

[StealthLurker]

What kind of old computer are you talking here? I've never seen this type of connector on any vintage machine from Commodore or even Atari. So even if the TTL is out of the question, do you have any idea what the other inputs of the RGB panel are for? I'd LOVE to get RGB out of this sweet baby. From my own experimenting, it seems pushing the RGB button on the front of the tv switches between the composite inputs and the RGB input. The only way to switch between TEXT and TTL is though the switch on the back. The remote doesn't have anything that mentions RGB. I wonder if it's worth it to try and track down the original manual that came with it? A bunch of sites claim to have it available for order. I think I'll give it a shot.

I've seen that type of RGB TTL connector on the back of some Sony PVM RGB monitors. Both of my PVMs have that connector along with a 25pin (I believe) connector. However I've only used the 25pin with my custom cables.

Go to ebay or google and look at the back on various Sony PVM models. You'll see that on some. I've seen those glass protectors on really old TVs. One of the TVs at my parents house had that. I also have a 19 inch Sony Japanese RGB monitor that has a glass protector. It's even got the old school Sony logo and a real, legit japanese 21pin connector like the one used for an XRGB2/2+ unit (looks exactly like a Euro Scart plug).

Once you go RGB on retro consoles it's hard to go back... lol

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[RARusk]

I would also recommend plugging the model number into Google and see what info comes up. Hopefully you can get the user manual and that would really be very helpful.

I also second Zapf's suggestion of going to NFG Games' RGB Analog forums and asking around if you can't get any reliable info from Google.

[Satoshi_Matrix]

The YM input switches RGB to half-brightness, for video overlay use. The YS input is used to activate the RGB input. I believe you just use terminators to activate the necessary modes.

No, I tried this using a RCA composite male plug that I cut and split and soldered a 47ohm resistor to (ghetto terminator) and although not quite 75ohms needed, it didn't do anything.

I've tried hooking up component video and composite video to each of the RGB channels (which is what I have handy at the moment) while supplying composite video (or component Y) to the sync input, but the TV seems to ignore the RGB inputs altogether,it syncs to and displays the composite video in full color (and the component Y signal in B&W as supposed to but nothing happens through the RGB channels. I think I should try with a clean composite sync signal devoid of video information in case the TV senses the video and disables the RGB but I don't have any means to get such a signal from my gaming systems. I know I can build a simple circuit with a LM1881 to strip the sync from the composite video but I (insert favorite reason here for not doing it)

I should add I don't get a rolling picture if I don't connect the sync, just a black screen.

Help?

[burn_654]

Don't plug a typical Component cable into there. You need a SCART cable to carry true RGB. Component and RGB are not the same formats. Component is a compressed form of RGB - it's ultimately carrying a different kind of signal. (Y/Pb/Pr). What might be confusing you is that: your tv is representing a complete RGB signal in 4 ports - R,G,B, and sync (RGBs). A SCART cable carries all of these in separate pins to the tv. A modern Component cable (let's say a PS2 component cable) has a red, green and blue port that represent Y/Pb/Pr - but they cannot carry an RGBs signal, they're mutually exclusive signals.

So, you need to use a SCART cable and extract these RGBS signals into the individual rca-style jacks for your tv.

Console -> scart cable -> scart adapter -> individual R,G,B,S ports on the tv.

That said, if the tv is automatically detecting Composite on your Composite/Sync (you said it displays in full color) then you may indeed have to make a sync stripper for your composite/sync port, or figure out how to force it into 'sync' mode.

Good luck!

[Satoshi_Matrix]

I decided to break down and buy the pdf service manual. I'm going to host it for a short while for anyone who is interested in helping me figure out this tv. Find it here:

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=IGZAO5UN

[nebrazca78]

Don't plug a typical Component cable into there. You need a SCART cable to carry true RGB. Component and RGB are not the same formats.

Very important information. I think most people assume component and RGB are the same.


No, I tried this using a RCA composite male plug that I cut and split and soldered a 47ohm resistor to (ghetto terminator) and although not quite 75ohms needed, it didn't do anything.

If you haven't used the proper resistor I don't think you can rule this out. Also some TVs use unresisted terminators for things like this, but you have the manual so it should tell you. The TV probably came with the proper terminators when new.

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[nebrazca78]

I decided to break down and buy the pdf service manual. I'm going to host it for a short while for anyone who is interested in helping me figure out this tv. Find it here:

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=IGZAO5UN

Unfortunately this is not the owners manual but a service manual so it doesn't provide the full operating instructions we need.

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[theclaw]

Doesn't the Playstation 2 allow output of RGB, using cables intended for component? Which extraordinarily few TVs would accept.

[burn_654]

Doesn't the Playstation 2 allow output of RGB, using cables intended for component? Which extraordinarily few TVs would accept.

Yes, but in a pretty limited sense. I've done it on my Samsung lcd with a component to vga cable (it happens to support Sync-On-Green which is what you're thinking). Only games with progressive mode are visible. There's 2 apps for softmodded ps2's, GSM and HDTV Xploder, which can force the interlaced games and the ps2 menu to work, again with limited results. When it works it's great but the compatibility kind of bummed me. For instance, MMX Command Mission runs great in progressive in such a way...but fmv sequences are interlaced and you can't see them.

It's neat but I really doubt this tv has sync-on-green.

[Lerxstnj]

The 8-pin connector was for old VCRs. It handles audio & video in one cable.

[theclaw]

Yes, but in a pretty limited sense. I've done it on my Samsung lcd with a component to vga cable (it happens to support Sync-On-Green which is what you're thinking). Only games with progressive mode are visible. There's 2 apps for softmodded ps2's, GSM and HDTV Xploder, which can force the interlaced games and the ps2 menu to work, again with limited results. When it works it's great but the compatibility kind of bummed me. For instance, MMX Command Mission runs great in progressive in such a way...but fmv sequences are interlaced and you can't see them.

It's neat but I really doubt this tv has sync-on-green.

Curious situation.

I thought the screen going green with SCART was only for DVDs and got fixed by the slim?
While sync-on-green applies to PS2's VGA cable, not old RGB?

[RARusk]

You could only play DVDs through Component Video regardless of whether or not you set the PS2 for RGB. This was because copy protection signals could not be implemented into RGB so the PS2 would switch into Component Video for as long as you played a DVD. This resulted in the green screen problem.

PS1 RGB did not have a dedicated sync line so you had to strip it out of the Composite/Luma signal (or get it off of the motherboard). This design was carried over to the PS2 and PS3.

I don't know why Sony did it this way. They could've added an additional line into the AV plug for Composite Sync and make it easier for RGB users (and would've allowed for more Progressive Scan titles for the PS2). Dumb decision as far as I'm concerned.

[theclaw]

I guess my understanding is way behind then...

[Satoshi_Matrix]

heres a little video I made showing this tv

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ttd8D2wvWTM

[Satoshi_Matrix]

new video showcasing more of this awesome tv.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ctnFFU9FXJ8