Questions about building your game rooms.

[camarotuner]

So I think I'm going to go for it and remodel my basement into a full on gaming room. Since a bunch of people here have done that, questions...

Since my collection ranges from the Atari 2600 era to PS3/360/Wii would it be better to go with dual tv's? One older CRT based model and one modern one? If I go with a CRT for older systems should it be flat screen or go with the curved screen so that the lightguns work?

I've always used switch boxes for all my a/v connections as it works very well. But multiple rf's I have options. There exist rf selector boxes, they are a pain to track down but they exist. Does chaining rf connectors together really screw up the signal? The main TV signal wouldn't be part of the chain, just videogame systems. If the answer is "yes dumbass it'd screw the signal up" anyone know an online source where I can get a rf selector? I've found a/v selectors that do up to 8 devices. Any big ones for rf's?

Any help is always appreciated, thank you.

[Emperor Megas]

I would definitely go with both an older CRT for older games and a modern television for modern games. I prefer flat screens in general, so I'd probably try to get a flat screen CRT for my older games. AFAIK, light guns work whether the screen is flat or not, so long as it's a CRT.

As for the RF selector, just get on that has a signal boosting amp on it. Pretty much any type that requires a power source does.

[nouserever]

heh, me too. just get more than 2 tv's. an old one (80's) one of those big ol' dlp's, from the 90's, you know what im talking about, and a flat screen. about the selectors, i dont have any

[MachineGex]

I found a really cool RF selector that has a bunch of inputs(4 each) and it lets you select the output to 3 different TVs or a VCR. I have never seen one before, but I was at a goodwill and stumbled on it. They charged me an arm & leg for it $12.97, but I thought I would need it one day. It is called a "Video Control Center" "Channel Master". It is model number 0770B. Good luck finding one, but they are out there if you need one.

[SpaceFlea]

I will confirm 100% that light guns work with flat CRTs. That is what I have in my game room for older games and have used it many times for said activity.

[otoko]

I will confirm 100% that light guns work with flat CRTs. That is what I have in my game room for older games and have used it many times for said activity.

POINT OF INTEREST! When selecting a flat screen CRT try to avoid a HD-ready model. They have the lag so older light guns may not work.

[Cryomancer]

I've got a Sony Trinitron flatscreen CRT and it does not work for light guns. So it's a hit or miss kind of thing. Of course, this is also basically an "EDTV", in that it can do 720p but nothing higher. I venture to guess it's failure to use lightguns has something to do with refresh rates.

[SpaceFlea]

Yes, I forgot to mention my flat CRT is an older standard non-ED or HD/HD ready variety (Good ol' 27" Daewoo). My 100% should not be mistaken as 100% of flat screen CRTs, but rather as an absolute in my case. I should have made that more clear. I didn't realize the secondary connotation my statement carried, sorry if I created confusion.

[DogP]

I recently hooked up a LOT of systems in my gameroom... I went a little overkill w/ automation and stuff, but automated or not, I think this information should help. Of course I'd be glad to go into as technical of details as you'd like, but here's a quick overview.

All hooked up at the same time are: 7800, Odyssey 2, Intellivision, 5200, Colecovision, NES, Genesis, TI-99/4A, TurboGrafx-16, Master System, N64, Jaguar, Saturn, 3DO, Dreamcast, SNES, PS2, and xbox. I have a remote control to select which system I want to play, and it sets the switchboxes and TV to the correct input.

For component, s-video, and composite, I use a bunch of these switchboxes: http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=101&cp_id=10110&cs_id=1011007&p_id=3027&seq=1&format=2 ... You can use those for S-Video by getting S-Video to 2x RCA adapters (like: http://www.amazon.com/Hosa-S-Video-Female-Breakout-VSF-454/dp/B0037MZAKS , which break S-Video into Y and C), and for composite by using just the Y port. I've found that I can daisychain those switchboxes at least once without noticably losing quality.

For RF, I wouldn't daisychain (the quality loss is pretty bad after a few systems), and I wouldn't use a switchbox, but instead just use an RF splitter/combiner. When you use one of those RF splitters in reverse, it works as a power combiner... so use something like one of these: http://www.av-outlet.com/en-us/dept_507.html , depending how many systems you need plugged in. You just have to make sure you only turn one system on at a time, or the signals interfere (if they're outputting the same channel). You should use a terminator on any unused ports.

For lightguns, any standard definition CRT should work, but a lot of them have comb filters, which will interfere with timing. Mine has a 3-line comb filter, which in simple terms tries to remove artifacts from the lower quality composite and coax signals. On composite, my lightguns shoot down and right of where I'm actually aiming... but comb filters aren't used on S-video, so if possible, you'll want to use S-video or better on any system you're wanting to use a lightgun on (except NES, since that basically detects hit or miss). You can use a composite to S-video adapter, but my experience has been that the picture quality of those is really bad. I converted my Master System and Genesis to S-video, so they work great.

And yeah, I'd recommend a newer TV for the new systems... I keep mine hooked up in my living room, and they look much better in HD widescreen, but the classic systems look much better on my 32" CRT.

DogP

[Leo_A]

Light guns only work with standard definition (480i) CRT's. It has nothing to do with things like lag or if it's curved or flat screen. If the CRT can display extended definition (480p) or an HD resolution like 720p, it won't work with lightguns.

The ideal setup, if you ask me, is a modern large screen standard definition Sony Trinitron from half a decade ago and a nice HDTV of your choosing for the Xbox 360 and Playstation 3 (And perhaps a Wii and a Xbox if it's good at upscaling 480p content). No need for tracking down an ancient CRT or old DLP set from the 1990's (Not sure why anyone would seek out an old DLP set for). The best CRT's ever made are just a few years old from companies like Sony and available a dime a dozen these days. That's going to be the best way to display most of your consoles. I actually have two other displays, a small 11" B&W tv that I played 2600 games on as a child with a 2600 hooked up to it for nostalgia, and a computer CRT monitor for my Dreamcast. But a nice late model CRT and a HDTV are all you really need.

And get rid of RF as soon as you can (Or at least upgrade things like your 2600 to a F type adapter instead of a lousy switchbox). I have most every semi interesting console ever released in this country and only the Intellivision, O2, and Emerson Arcadia 2001 are still hooked up by RF. And hopefully I'll eliminate those as soon as I can through modding them. Has greatly improved the picture quality of things like my Atari consoles. And I had an RF selector about 10 years ago with 4 inputs on it, so they do exist.

And if for some reason you wanted to send your RF or composite consoles to your television via s-video, no need for an adapter. A s-video equipped VCR will be able to do it just fine (Or at least mine does).

[camarotuner]

"For RF, I wouldn't daisychain (the quality loss is pretty bad after a few systems), and I wouldn't use a switchbox, but instead just use an RF splitter/combiner. When you use one of those RF splitters in reverse, it works as a power combiner... so use something like one of these: http://www.av-outlet.com/en-us/dept_507.html , depending how many systems you need plugged in. You just have to make sure you only turn one system on at a time, or the signals interfere (if they're outputting the same channel). You should use a terminator on any unused ports."

Um, you lost me lol. Those things look like (to me, the none techie guy in this group I'm sure) like splitters to make my tv signal go to more than 1 tv. They make those in reverse??? That'd be freaking awesome.

Yes I'd *LOVE* to have my rf stuff changed to a/v. My technical skills are limited to the fact that, frankly, I'm a mechanic. That does not lend itself well to modding videogame systems. Having them done professionally is more money than I'm willing to spend to get the picture quality of 30 year old atari games to look better. No offense intended it's just not a financial priority for me.

Now, tv's... ok so I want a CRT not DLP that DOESN'T do HD and that'll give me the best shot at getting lightguns to work and still look nice for older systems. Sounds good to me. How big of one can I find?

Oh and one more question, I can buy a huge projection tv right now for about, eh, 100 bucks. I'm guessing that'd be horrible for the older systems but would someone confirm that so I stop looking at them?

[Leo_A]

Um, you lost me lol. Those things look like (to me, the none techie guy in this group I'm sure) like splitters to make my tv signal go to more than 1 tv. They make those in reverse??? That'd be freaking awesome.

They make them in reverse. I don't think any of those at that site are like that, though. They'd have a switch to select between inputs if they were a RF selector and I don't see any switches. They just look like coaxial splitters to me.


Now, tv's... ok so I want a CRT not DLP that DOESN'T do HD and that'll give me the best shot at getting lightguns to work and still look nice for older systems. Sounds good to me. How big of one can I find?

Make sure you don't get an EDTV (480p). They were never common, but they do exist. Nice standard definition (480i) Trinitrons are widely available on the used market and many have large screens past 30". I don't know how big of a one you can find, you'd have to look on your own at your local classified ads, Craigslist, etc.

[dchristie74]

you can find a good crt tv sometimes at goodwill. I have my game systems all hooked up to one 32" tv. radio shack has some rca/svideo switches that you can daisey chain together as for rf they sell an rf female to coax male adapter. I have multiple systems hooked up this way and it is easier to find mutliple splitters for coax than it is for rf and if the signal is bad you cna buy a booster. My crt has component cable input for 480i output.

you can see my set up at www.thevideogamecollector.weebly.com or i have post my setup in the my collection section in the forums.

[DogP]

They make them in reverse. I don't think any of those at that site are like that, though. They'd have a switch to select between inputs if they were a RF selector and I don't see any switches. They just look like coaxial splitters to me.

Actually, those on that site are what you'd need... it can be used as a splitter or combiner. Most people use it to split their cable TV signal to multiple TVs, but you can also use it to combine multiple signals into a single TV. That's what I'm saying to do here. Hook your TV to the middle port and connect each system to the other ports. There's no need for a switch, unless you plan to also have TV signal on this TV.

Just think of that box an adder... it outputs the sum of everything that's coming in. When the Atari is on, it's Atari + 0 + 0 + 0 + 0 + 0 = Atari. When the Colecovision is on, it's 0 + Colecovision + 0 + 0 + 0 + 0 = Colecovision. If you turn them both on, you get Atari + Colecovision, which gives you an unusable signal... which is why I said to only turn one on at a time.

That's how I have my gameroom set up, and it works perfectly.

Edit: Actually upon closer look, I wouldn't go with those exact ones on that site. Those are resistive power splitters, which aren't as good (more loss and less isolation)... just trust me that they're not as good. This is what I'm using: http://www.buy.com/retail/product.asp?sku=90100905&sellerid=11408470 .

DogP

[portnoyd]

Ok, first off, if you're doing in your basement, make sure that everything on the ground is in plastic tubs and everything else is at least a foot off the ground. Even if there is NO chance for a flood, a faulty pipe or water heater could spell disaster. We were very fortunate to buy a house that had a large master bedroom that we turned into the gameroom and it is on the second floor of our house.

If you have room for TVs, definitely do 2 TVs. 360/PS3 on a HDTV, everything else on a SDTV CRT. The only exception is you're willing to splurge on a XRGB2+ or XRGB3 in which case you can do 2 HDTVs, however the price of entry is steep.

For system hookups, we use one of these. They are perfect.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Pelican-System-Selector-Pro-PL-960-Silver-and-Perfect-Condition-/110749633865?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item19c9314d49

This will give you 3 component (for Wii, PS2 and Xbox) and then SVideo down the line with AVs as needed.

You want to minimize RFs as much as possible. Several routes to go. AV modded systems are the best way but the price of modding may be prohibitive. You can also use the 5200 or Colecovision 2600 adapter to hit two systems with one stone (this is what I'm doing with our setup). Also use AV on systems that have it when possible - a NES toaster as opposed to a toploader, the Turbobooster on a TG-16.

We only have one RF on our line for the Coleco with the possibility of hot swapping for the INTV. I'd like to have a 5200 hooked up but the size of the system and another RF is not a good combo imo. Your interests may vary.

[swlovinist]

Agree with what has been said above

Protect yourself from floods

Go with CRTs for older, HDTV for current

Pelican System Selectors are awesome, I have two of them

[MachineGex]

I should have mentioned....When hooking up an older system like a 2600, make sure the power cord and the RF cord dont get crossed or touch. It can cause slight ghosting. Run the power cord out the back left and the RF cord out the Back right. Keep them away from each other and your picture quality will be much improved!

[Robocop2]

If I had the extra room I'd probably have a CRT for my older systems, though my regular TV seems to handle them just fine

[Leo_A]

Actually, those on that site are what you'd need... it can be used as a splitter or combiner.

I wasn't aware of that.

But if that's the case, why do they also make ones specifically for that purpose with a switch to select between inputs? That's what I used in years gone by before I largely eliminated the hassles of RF with my videogames (They'd look just like a normal coaxial splitter but with a switch on top of it, just like a tv/game switchbox would have, to select between multiple inputs).

If you could use any old splitter and use it in reverse and have it work automatically for you, I don't understand why these ones would exist. Unless the ones with a switch were designed specifically for hooking something else up to the same input your cable television signal is hooked up to (Which is never off unless you have a set-top box, unlike a game console)?

I'm not sure if it's a good idea. People have had their game consoles damaged when they've tried using those multi system AV cables that places like GameStop sell with more than one console hooked up at the same time. They specifically warn against hooking more than one system up at a time to the same set of cables for that very reason

I would think using a regular RF splitter in reverse with two or more game systems hooked up to it might put you at risk of a similar problem.

[DogP]

I wasn't aware of that.

But if that's the case, why do they also make ones specifically for that purpose with a switch to select between inputs? That's what I used in years gone by before I largely eliminated the hassles of RF with my videogames (They'd look just like a normal coaxial splitter but with a switch on top of it, just like a tv/game switchbox would have, to select between multiple inputs).

If you could use any old splitter and use it in reverse and have it work automatically for you, I don't understand why these ones would exist. Unless the ones with a switch were designed specifically for hooking something else up to the same input your cable television signal is hooked up to (Which is never off unless you have a set-top box, unlike a game console)?

I'm not sure if it's a good idea. People have had their game consoles damaged when they've tried using those multi system AV cables that places like GameStop sell with more than one console hooked up at the same time. They specifically warn against hooking more than one system up at a time to the same set of cables for that very reason

I would think using a regular RF splitter in reverse with two or more game systems hooked up to it might put you at risk of a similar problem.

The switches that I typically see are to switch between games and cable/antenna, which like you said, is never off. Without a switch, you couldn't use the game system because there's a signal on the channels that the video game is trying to use.

There's a huge difference between this combiner and those multi-system cords. The reason those cords will damage a system is because each line is connected directly between all the systems. Whatever is output from one system is shorted directly to the output of the other system.

An RF Splitter/Combiner is totally different than just wires tied together... every input/output is impedence matched, and transformers are used to connect the sum port to the rest. This provides the key specification... isolation. This is how much power is lost from one input to the other (i.e. how much Atari signal will be seen at the output of the Colecovision).

The first link I posted was to a resistive power splitter, which doesn't use transformers, and has 16dB loss, but also 16dB of isolation between ports. This is sufficient, but not as good as the Channelvision one that I'm using, which has 9dB loss, and ~30dB of isolation (i.e. ~3% of the signal reaches the other systems). The typical output of a system is already only around 0.01 Vp-p, so we're talking about 0.0003Vp-p. That's not gonna damage the output of one of the other systems. For comparison, a typical non-mechanical RF switch has about 30dB of isolation as well, though a mechanical RF switch typically has around 60dB of isolation.

BTW, I'm an electrical engineer with quite a bit of RF knowledge/experience... I'd be glad to go into more detail if you'd like, but I lost the OP the first time, and crazy technical details may be a little off topic.

DogP

[Leo_A]

BTW, I'm an electrical engineer with quite a bit of RF knowledge/experience... I'd be glad to go into more detail if you'd like, but I lost the OP the first time, and crazy technical details may be a little off topic.

Thanks for the information.

Having three consoles that still use the coaxial jack of my television and nothing else that does, I've just been keeping a F-type connector screwed on to it and switching cables when changing between them.

Nice to know I can dig out a splitter and just have it happen automatically rather than switching cables around everytime I want to play one of the other two systems. I even have a three way splitter stored away and a couple more F type adapters, so I'm all set with what I'd need.

[DogP]

Thanks for the information.

Having three consoles that still use the coaxial jack of my television and nothing else that does, I've just been keeping a F-type connector screwed on to it and switching cables when changing between them.

Nice to know I can dig out a splitter and just have it happen automatically rather than switching cables around everytime I want to play one of the other two systems. I even have a three way splitter stored away and a couple more F type adapters, so I'm all set with what I'd need.

Yep... if possible, I'd make sure it's a non-resistive splitter... especially if it's only a 3-way splitter, since a resistive 3-way splitter would only have around 10dB of isolation (and for a non-resistive splitter, fewer ports should have better isolation).

The easiest way to tell is that a non-resistive splitter will typically show a frequency range like 5-1000MHz... a resistive power splitter should work down to DC. If the loss is labeled at each port, a non-resistive should show around 5dB... resistive should show around 10dB.

DogP

[DogP]

I saw this in an email from MCM today, which IMO is a pretty good deal at $15: http://www.mcmelectronics.com/product/PH61150&scode=DD10W1&d=?&utm_source=ExactTarget&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=DD10W1&j=27880401&l=1950623_HTML&u=247212681&mid=187351&jb=0 .

That looks identical to one that I'm using on my big screen for the Wii, DVD player, etc. It says high def, but IIRC, I wasn't able to get it to run any higher than 720p.

But yeah, compared to the other one from Monoprice, this is nice because it switches S-Video, Component, and Composite all on the same box, without needing any adapter cables or anything. And it auto-selects the last one you turn on, which is pretty nice. Of course it doesn't convert, so you still need to switch your TV to the correct input.

DogP

[camarotuner]

So here's what I've got (for the moment, still hoping to do a 2 tv setup but haven't found the right older tv yet...

I have a 4 way a/v selector an 8 way a/v selector and a 4 way r/f selector. Daisy chained 2 systems per r/f port and then put the cable tv cable on it's own port. Used HDMI for the PS3 and the 360. 2 very big (12 port) surge protectors with rotating ports (to accomodate the "big" ac adapters of older systems). So in all I have 18 systems hooked up and all functional whenever I want. Thank you for your guys suggestions and I will definately be looking to seperate "modern" from "vintage" gaming at some point just not sure when.

[StealthLurker]

I recently hooked up a LOT of systems in my gameroom... I went a little overkill w/ automation and stuff, but automated or not, I think this information should help. Of course I'd be glad to go into as technical of details as you'd like, but here's a quick overview.

All hooked up at the same time are: 7800, Odyssey 2, Intellivision, 5200, Colecovision, NES, Genesis, TI-99/4A, TurboGrafx-16, Master System, N64, Jaguar, Saturn, 3DO, Dreamcast, SNES, PS2, and xbox. I have a remote control to select which system I want to play, and it sets the switchboxes and TV to the correct input.

For component, s-video, and composite, I use a bunch of these switchboxes: http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=101&cp_id=10110&cs_id=1011007&p_id=3027&seq=1&format=2 ... You can use those for S-Video by getting S-Video to 2x RCA adapters (like: http://www.amazon.com/Hosa-S-Video-Female-Breakout-VSF-454/dp/B0037MZAKS , which break S-Video into Y and C), and for composite by using just the Y port. I've found that I can daisychain those switchboxes at least once without noticably losing quality.

For RF, I wouldn't daisychain (the quality loss is pretty bad after a few systems), and I wouldn't use a switchbox, but instead just use an RF splitter/combiner. When you use one of those RF splitters in reverse, it works as a power combiner... so use something like one of these: http://www.av-outlet.com/en-us/dept_507.html , depending how many systems you need plugged in. You just have to make sure you only turn one system on at a time, or the signals interfere (if they're outputting the same channel). You should use a terminator on any unused ports.

For lightguns, any standard definition CRT should work, but a lot of them have comb filters, which will interfere with timing. Mine has a 3-line comb filter, which in simple terms tries to remove artifacts from the lower quality composite and coax signals. On composite, my lightguns shoot down and right of where I'm actually aiming... but comb filters aren't used on S-video, so if possible, you'll want to use S-video or better on any system you're wanting to use a lightgun on (except NES, since that basically detects hit or miss). You can use a composite to S-video adapter, but my experience has been that the picture quality of those is really bad. I converted my Master System and Genesis to S-video, so they work great.

And yeah, I'd recommend a newer TV for the new systems... I keep mine hooked up in my living room, and they look much better in HD widescreen, but the classic systems look much better on my 32" CRT.

DogP


I've actually had excellent results with a particular composite to svideo converter. I forget the make and model, but it's a powered unit. It's a tiny device and all it does is that one conversion. It's a bit pricey at a little over a 100 bucks. I recall picking that one after doing some research on the diff types/quality of svideo.... Something about 2 stage and 3 stage filtering. I use it on a Sony PVM RGB CRT monitor and it looks nearly as good as a true svideo source.


.

[DogP]

I've actually had excellent results with a particular composite to svideo converter. I forget the make and model, but it's a powered unit. It's a tiny device and all it does is that one conversion. It's a bit pricey at a little over a 100 bucks. I recall picking that one after doing some research on the diff types/quality of svideo.... Something about 2 stage and 3 stage filtering. I use it on a Sony PVM RGB CRT monitor and it looks nearly as good as a true svideo source.


.

Yeah, a true converter would look good... most likely it has a comb filter, similar to what some TVs have built in. What I was referring to is something like: http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=104&cp_id=10430&cs_id=1043001&p_id=4119&seq=1&format=2 . The picture quality w/ those are super crappy... mine had vertical bars across the entire screen and the colors were kinda washed out. But the lightguns worked great, since it bypassed the comb filter of my TV by using S-Video.

If your composite to S-Video converter has a comb filter, the light gun games would still have the mis-aiming problems though. The problem comes from the added time delay of the filter.

DogP