Super Mario Bros. 2 (Japan aka The Lost Levels) the result of a depressed Miyamoto?

[treismac]

This article claims it to be. It is not the main thrust of the article, mind you, but it does mention Miyamoto's mental health at the time of development as an explanation for the game's insane difficulty:

"...in Steven L. Kent's The Ultimate History of Video Games, a Nintendo executive suggests that revered game designer Shigeru Miyamoto might have been "depressed at the time'" (http://www.slate.com/articles/technology/gaming/2007/11/super_mario_bros_the_lost_levels.html).

Just who was this Nintendo executive you ask? None other than Howard Phillips of "Howard and Nester" fame from the glory days of Nintendo Power (http://www.destructoid.com/miyamoto-depressed-when-creating-lost-levels-suggests-nintendo-executive-47616.phtml).

The writer of the latter article suggests that Howard, always the jokester, was kidding but I wonder. What are your thoughts? Is the hyper difficulty of the true sequel to Super Mario Bros. the result of a creative melancholy that seeped into the design of the game, mirroring the hopelessness that tormented Miyamoto inside? God knows some of the levels tormented me at the very least...

Also, any other games that come to mind that are possibly influenced by an abnormal mental condition?

[Parodius Duh!]

Howard Phillips is a dip shit, its well known they wanted to make a challenging Mario game because Japanese gamers demanded it after the first games success.

[WesternNYCollector]

I hear all the time that Japanese gamers love challenging games.

[kedawa]

I hear all the time that Japanese gamers love challenging games.
They should play some European games, then.

[Rickstilwell1]

I should have been Japanese. SMB2j is so fun!

[aryoshi]

I've always been jealous of the challenging games that Japan has to offer. Not only challenging, but usually overall better games. Like Tales of Phantasia of what I've been playing lately. I can't get off of it. But SMB2j is just a challenging sequel, probably nothing more than that. I like it as such!

[Kiddo]

If I recall right, the official word is that Miyamoto did not have a direct hand in Lost Levels (Zelda came out that same year and Doki Doki Panic the year afterwards. They notably do not have the same kind of frustrations that Lost Levels has), and so much of the design was handled by the programmers themselves.

It may be interesting to point out how the relation between a game's designer and the programmers may affect a game's difficulty or even basic fairness. It appears that in many retro-age games, when the programmers controlled the game more, it led to gameplay mechanics that were more sadistic at times.

[Robocop2]

Also, any other games that come to mind that are possibly influenced by an abnormal mental condition?

Anything involving Suda 51?

[Greg2600]

Phillips, who was often right, was right on this account too. The US-SMB2 was big departure, and introduced the Princess and Toad and unique Luigi characters. Not to mention the graphical enhancement over the first game. I'm sure a small percentage of gamers would have enjoyed the added challenge of SMB2J, but 95% of the SMB1 gamer-base would have been furious with Lost Levels. SMB1 was still selling tons of copies by the time SMB2 came out here in 1988, mainly because it came with the system. SMB2 was a fun game, and particularly for Nintendo target audience, young teens and children, it was a huge hit. Could Lost Levels have sold 10 million copies? No way. Then to wait several years for the illustrious SMB3? I think Nintendo would have taken a bath if they released it, and never did SMB2-USA.

[Kevincal]

It seems to me that Lost Levels is more of an add on pack to Mario 1. The graphics and enemies are exactly the same. It seems all they did was continue to increase the difficulty from world 8 in Mario 1. Therefore World 1 in Lost Levels is more like world 9. And so on. That is kind of the way I look at it. Maybe the truth is they originally planned to Make the first Mario Bros. a much bigger game but decided to divide it into 2 games released a year apart? Mario 2 Japan / Lost Levels is a great game if you are an experienced, expert Mario 1 player. Even then it can be frustatingly difficult though. Still a great game though.

[Aussie2B]

If I recall right, the official word is that Miyamoto did not have a direct hand in Lost Levels (Zelda came out that same year and Doki Doki Panic the year afterwards. They notably do not have the same kind of frustrations that Lost Levels has), and so much of the design was handled by the programmers themselves.

It may be interesting to point out how the relation between a game's designer and the programmers may affect a game's difficulty or even basic fairness. It appears that in many retro-age games, when the programmers controlled the game more, it led to gameplay mechanics that were more sadistic at times.

I think that's just more a reflection of why we need designers in general. Programmers are very smart people, but that doesn't necessarily mean they have any sense when it comes to creative, artistic ideas and what makes a game fun. We should be very thankful that we now almost always have separate people for design, art, music, programming, etc.

Anyway, there are tons of games that are a lot more difficult than the Japanese Super Mario Bros. 2, so if Miyamoto, or anyone else involved in the project, wanted to torment players, they could've definitely gone much farther. Just look at all that "Asshole Mario" stuff.

As for other people working on games in a depressed state, I do know that Motoi Sakuraba, while composing for Valkyrie Profile, was put into a depression because of the nature of the game, so that influenced his songs.

[Orion Pimpdaddy]

They probably figured most players were already masters of the first Mario game, so they produced a game that challenged their skills. I would think if depression was involved, the game would have came out more dark, as opposed to difficult.

[Rickstilwell1]

The graphics and enemies are exactly the same.

No the ground and trees have different sprites, as do the mushrooms.

[Ludwig]

My therapist once told me that only the abnormal are able to do great things, and in the art-world it's not that uncommon that great artists are a little cracking. The world doesn't change because everything is normal, it doesn't make any sense either.

[Jorpho]

I've always been jealous of the challenging games that Japan has to offer. Not only challenging, but usually overall better games. Like Tales of Phantasia of what I've been playing lately.I hope it's the translated PSX version.

[CelticJobber]

I would think it was laziness more than anything. SMB2J is basically just a much more difficult version of SMB1.

[aryoshi]

I hope it's the translated PSX version.

It is not, but the SNES version. I was never fond of PSX RPGs, be it port or original.

[Jorpho]

It is not, but the SNES version. I was never fond of PSX RPGs, be it port or original.Not only is the PSX version said to be generally superior, but it is still sufficiently similar to the SNES original that I do not see how you can draw a distinction between it being a "PSX RPG" and the original being a "SNES RPG". But we're getting off-topic.

[InsaneDavid]

In the interview Nintendo Player conducted with the man behind Captain Nintendo, he remarked...

[Sidebar: I promised that I would explain the chief reason that existing games in Japan are altered for American audiences. Games are made easier for American audiences. I was told by the Japanese management that games must be made easier for American audiences for a couple of reasons. “American game players do not have the skills to defeat a game at the difficulty level set for Japanese game players. American game players also do not have the patience. They insist that the game is at least defeatable at some point. Japanese game players do NOT require this. Many games released in Japan cannot be defeated. Japanese game players love that!” There was no attempt by the Japanese management to hide their contempt at having to make games easier for American audiences. To me, that just implies: “Since we don’t have the design skills to incorporate longevity into the game through creative design and gameplay, we just increase the difficulty level so that the player must take longer to finish it. If he never finishes it, that is the greatest longevity of all.” It’s not the inadequacy of us “spoiled” American gameplayers; it is the inadequacy of the designer to design properly for his audience. People make all kinds of excuses when they are found inadequate. So the Japanese equated difficulty with quality. While this may just be a cultural difference, I can never support the idea that a game cannot be defeated. If all you can do is “show up and take damage,” you are not playing a game. You are marking time. BIG difference. You cannot measure progress. You cannot feel a sense of accomplishment. Likely, you cannot feel a sense of satisfaction. If the Japanese game players don’t mind plunking down their $60 for this, God love them. Taking the liberty of speaking on behalf of my fellow American game players: We want—check that—we DEMAND more for our mom’s hard-earned money.]

Full story here (http://nintendoplayer.com/the-man-behind-captain-nintendo/), but I'm sure a lot of us have read it at some point.

Personally Super Mario Bros. 2 is my all the favorite Mario game, simply because it gave life to the world. You could go places and do things, loop back around a pop out in different parts of a level going a completely different way. You had to utilize enemies and tools to progress through different challenges. There were different ways to go about completing different tasks. Quite a change from a scrolling obstacle course that the original was, and all Mario games since are better for it.

EDIT: Italics added, makes it harder to read but easier to keep in mind that these are not my words.

[Peonpiate]

I tried Lost levels on the SNES way back and got stuck on world 7-something, imo its good they kept it in Japan, it was just wayyyy to hard for being a Mario game. And it wasn't a huge departure from Mario 1 either [outside of adding a few new ways to kill you]. The version of Mario 2 that we did get [and I loved as a kid] was different enough from Mario 1 that it stood out, you could complete the maps in several different ways and could take your time doing it, and you could use items to kill monsters etc. For the time it came out it was original compared to most other titles and still AAA gameplay wise.

[Kiddo]

“American game players do not have the skills to defeat a game at the difficulty level set for Japanese game players. American game players also do not have the patience. They insist that the game is at least defeatable at some point. Japanese game players do NOT require this. Many games released in Japan cannot be defeated. Japanese game players love that!”

Question time;

1) Around the time of the 8 through 16-bit eras, how many games released exclusively in Japan were considered "Undefeatable"?
2) Of all these, which of them were not also considered Kusoge?

Also, Ninja Gaiden, Castlevania and Battletoads say hi.

[InsaneDavid]

Question time;

1) Around the time of the 8 through 16-bit eras, how many games released exclusively in Japan were considered "Undefeatable"?
2) Of all these, which of them were not also considered Kusoge?

Also, Ninja Gaiden, Castlevania and Battletoads say hi.

I added some detail to my earlier post but I can respond to your second part. Ninja Gaiden, while difficult, is far from being impossible to complete. Heck, I beat it on my GP2X when I first picked it up, yes with that terrible joystick thing, without issue. Ninja Gaiden II is one of my all time favorite games. Ninja Gaiden III just got cheap for the sake of being cheap. Castlevania, again, while challenging, is far from impossible to complete - goes for all three of the NES titles.

Battletoads on the other hand is a complete unbalanced mess. As I summed it up when I reviewed the game (http://www.classicplastic.net/dvgi/reviewsNESbattletoads.html), "Any game that makes you want to stop playing games, not just change to something else but actually end your gaming session, should not be considered a good game."

[Aussie2B]

I've long heard of the theory that games were dumbed down for an American audience because supposedly we couldn't tolerate games as difficult as what the Japanese got, but the more I learn about the history of games, the less I buy it. How, then, would we explain games of that era that were actually made HARDER for the US? Like Bayou Billy, Castlevania III, and Ninja Gaiden III? Or how about the fact that many of the most absurdly difficult games of that time were actually created by Western developers? And not only that, but they were mainstream successes too, like the aforementioned Battletoads. Clearly not everyone in the game industry believed that Americans couldn't handle challenging games, so if there were people that believed that, then obviously they not only were limited to select people/companies but also had their opinions proven incorrect by the evidence out there.

[Greg2600]

Clearly its a cultural thing, because the desire to play the games with difficulty that Japanese will, is usually considered a waste of time by Americans. I just don't like the insinuation that Western kids needed to be coddled, when in fact perhaps those in Japan are a little unhinged.

[kedawa]

I know that I've read about certain games being made more difficult for the western market.
The difficulty divide is as strange as censorship policies.
Many Japanese games are censored in their western releases, and yet stuff like Mortal Kombat and GTA get censored for their Japanese releases.
It just makes no sense.

[Aussie2B]

I know that I've read about certain games being made more difficult for the western market.
The difficulty divide is as strange as censorship policies.
Many Japanese games are censored in their western releases, and yet stuff like Mortal Kombat and GTA get censored for their Japanese releases.
It just makes no sense.

That's usually different kinds of censorship, though. Western releases are usually censored for reasons relating to religion, alcohol, and sex, while Japanese games get censored for violence.

Granted, sometimes we get milk/slime instead of Japan's blood and such.

[treismac]

Also, Ninja Gaiden, Castlevania and Battletoads say hi.

The damn third level of Battletoads haunts me to this day. Insanely difficult. Such a damn shame to throw up such a relatively impenetrable wall between players and having a good time enjoying the game for more than 15 minutes. I threw in the towel on this one.

Screw the Grim Reaper on Castlevania. I spent half my time playing that game trying to beat him at the end of his level. Perhaps I will gather my courage and attempt to slay the damn psychopomp another day...

Having to start Ninja Gaiden all the way over from the beginning of the final stage is ridiculous. Unlike the Kachō (Shinya Arino from Retro Game Master), I do not have a team of Seal Team 6 video gamers to bring me back to where I last died, saving me the frustration and tears.

[treismac]

Battletoads on the other hand is a complete unbalanced mess. As I summed it up when I reviewed the game (http://www.classicplastic.net/dvgi/reviewsNESbattletoads.html), "Any game that makes you want to stop playing games, not just change to something else but actually end your gaming session, should not be considered a good game."

How did the 3rd level get past testers? Maybe "why" is an even better question. Surely they saw their testers' torment. There must have been some sadist in charge of that game, man. Damn. All these years and I'm still bitter over that stage. Perhaps if I beat that level it will give me some sort of emotional catharsis. Hell, I might give it a shot this weekend. Mmmm... no. Screw that. I'm going to play Clash at Demonhead instead.

[Aussie2B]

Stage 3 in Battletoads really isn't that bad. I got past it with just a little bit of practice. It's the later levels where it really gets stupidly difficult. Still a great game and really fun, though, despite the high difficulty.

[treismac]

I just don't like the insinuation that Western kids needed to be coddled, when in fact perhaps those in Japan are a little unhinged.

Let me preface my comment by saying that I believe the Japanese mindset is the product of their culture and NOT race. With that said, anyone who wants to label me a racist can grab a dictionary, look up the term, and then shove Webster's up their arse.

I have a friend who captured the Japanese feeling of superiority perfectly: "They do not so much see themselves as exceptional, but, instead they think that they alone are normal and that everyone else is below the norm." This makes sense of the condescension that is comorbid with the arrogance of so many Japanese. In my interactions with the Japanese and their culture through many different mediums, I would say that an integral part of what it means to be Japanese is to be superior to non-Japanese. Without a doubt, this belief is the result of the rabid indoctrination during the Meji period that taught the the divinity of the emperor as well as the divine origins of the Japanese people and their inherent right to rule over the rest of Asia. After their defeat in WWII, many were disillusioned with the belief in the divinity of the emperor but the overall superiority of their race stuck.[end half-ass history rant]

With all of this said, I love the culture of Japan even with its lumps and many Japanese people rock as they break the mold of old thinking.

[jperryss]

Screw the Grim Reaper on Castlevania. I spent half my time playing that game trying to beat him at the end of his level. Perhaps I will gather my courage and attempt to slay the damn psychopomp another day...

The trick is to keep the holy water through the entire game if possible (preferable with double or triple shot). Having spent literally HOURS at a time on the fX#*ing reaper as a kid, with the holy water I've gotten all the way to Drac on one credit several times (and then burned 20-30 lives on Drac, heh).

[treismac]

The trick is to keep the holy water through the entire game if possible (preferable with double or triple shot). Having spent literally HOURS at a time on the fX#*ing reaper as a kid, with the holy water I've gotten all the way to Drac on one credit several times (and then burned 20-30 lives on Drac, heh).

I appreciate the tip. I imagine sometime before Christmas I will probably make another go of it.

[ReaXan]

Super Mario 2 USA is the better game bottom line. It was fun to me as a kid and the characters in it are just as memorable as the Koopa family. It was an improvement in every way over the first SMB and actually challenging in a lighthearted way. All it was missing was the fireflower and it would have been truly epic.

Super Mario 2 Japan just feels like a map pack for Super Mario 1 instead of a true sequel.

[Peonpiate]

Super Mario 2 USA is the better game bottom line. It was fun to me as a kid and the characters in it are just as memorable as the Koopa family. It was an improvement in every way over the first SMB and actually challenging in a lighthearted way. All it was missing was the fireflower and it would have been truly epic.

Super Mario 2 Japan just feels like a map pack for Super Mario 1 instead of a true sequel.


You nailed it.

/End Thread.