Question About "Goes For X On Ebay"

[Porksta]

I hear this all the time - someone tries to sell something, asks for what it is currently selling for on ebay, and is told "sell it on ebay if you want ebay prices".

I never fully understood the logic behind this. Ebay prices are dictated by the consumer, right? So if consumers are buying Game Y on ebay for $75, why shouldn't I sell Game Y for $75? Isn't the market price $75, so selling for less would be bad business?

People mention that after fees, the seller isn't getting a full $75. Yes, that may be true, but how does that affect the price of the game? The fact that fees are taking out has no bearing on the final price it sells for.

Granted, there are some cases where it is pretty low class (but not completely crazy) to ask full resale value for something - Goodwill and other thrift stores immediately come to mind, but for sale forums here on DP and elsewhere why not?

People say ebay provides protection, but I feel much safer dealing with someone on a dedicated game site than ebay.

Maybe someone can enlighten me.

[Sunnyvale]

I'm with you on this. I actually don't sell stuff much on DP because my Ebay feedback is good enough and I'm always doing it... So I ask top dollar for stuff. Got $70 for PS1 Mega Man Legends 2. Had I asked $50 here, it probably woulda sat. As for seller fees, they are honestly not that bad. I paid less than $8 on that Mega Man after my discount for fancy feedback. And he bought it and had to pay now, no 'pending', which I understand we don't all have the money we need in PP all the time, but I'm sure we can all understand how nice it is to sell it and get paid with no emails involved.

IMO, if someone wants a good deal on a game, they need to either roll the dice with a low-end seller, search high and low for it in the wild, or deal without it. I've said it before on DP, and I will again here: If I spend time cleaning, testing, emailing, packaging, printing labels, and shipping, I ain't selling it for cheap, I don't care what it's worth.

[DuckTalesNES]

I think the idea of cash in hand right now should give you some small discount. I know as a seller I'd prefer cash on hand to the hassle of selling something on eBay. That being said, as a buyer, I'd rather buy something right in front of me than go through the hassle of buying it on eBay.

However, I do think the "go to eBay then" is a good negotiating tactic for what its worth. It puts the buyer/seller in a weaker bargaining position and shows that you'll be fine not making the sale/purchase right at this moment.

[Gameguy]

If someone was willing to pay full ebay prices they would have just bought it off ebay and had it delivered right to them, if they're shopping around locally or elsewhere it's probably because they wan't a better deal than what's on ebay. Maybe not by a whole lot, but some sort of deal. Few people want to pay full ebay rates when having to shop around elsewhere, especially when having to travel around locally. Plus only the winning bidder was willing to pay that much, once they bought it chances are they won't want another one. Look at the other lower bids to get a feel to what most people are willing to pay.

For the most part I stick to selling stuff locally. I don't mind selling stuff for less than the ebay going rates, I don't have to worry about packing stuff to ship it, or deal with fees, electronic payment methods, scammers, idiots wanting a refund because they didn't understand what they were bidding on, etc. I get cash in hand so I'm just glad I don't have to deal with that stuff. In some cases I've found that I can actually get more for things locally than the ebay going rate, but it's not exactly all that common.

[mikesides]

I'm not sure where you are trying to sell said item but I have noticed that the prices I can get for selling things on eBay are generally a lot higher than I can get for selling something locally. I would explain this price difference simply by demand.

On eBay more people are looking for that specific item which drives up the price. If I want top dollar I always sell on eBay. If it isn't worth much as it is then I will throw it on craigslist. That's my opinion. :)

[mikesides]

I don't mind selling stuff for less than the ebay going rates, I don't have to worry about packing stuff to ship it, or deal with fees, electronic payment methods, scammers, idiots wanting a refund because they didn't understand what they were bidding on, etc. I get cash in hand so I'm just glad I don't have to deal with that stuff.

Excellent point. I totally agree with that.

[Kitsune Sniper]

I hear this all the time - someone tries to sell something, asks for what it is currently selling for on ebay, and is told "sell it on ebay if you want ebay prices".

I never fully understood the logic behind this. Ebay prices are dictated by the consumer, right? So if consumers are buying Game Y on ebay for $75, why shouldn't I sell Game Y for $75? Isn't the market price $75, so selling for less would be bad business?

People mention that after fees, the seller isn't getting a full $75. Yes, that may be true, but how does that affect the price of the game? The fact that fees are taking out has no bearing on the final price it sells for.

Granted, there are some cases where it is pretty low class (but not completely crazy) to ask full resale value for something - Goodwill and other thrift stores immediately come to mind, but for sale forums here on DP and elsewhere why not?

People say ebay provides protection, but I feel much safer dealing with someone on a dedicated game site than ebay.

Maybe someone can enlighten me.

When I want to sell something here and ask what the price for it on eBay is, I do so so I can figure out a fair price for it.

For example, a game that sells for $50 with buy it now. eBay takes away what is it, 14% of the price now? So a fair price would be $43.50, but then I may lower it even further, or even use that as the final shipped price. It depends on how much of a profit I want, how quickly I want this to sell, and how well I know the forum users.

And I feel much safer selling something here than on eBay. At least here I don't get psycho whackjobs that can't fucking read auction listings.

[Sunnyvale]

In my previous post I was assuming you meant online, but off Ebay, like here. If you mean locally, yeah, Ebay fees count, but so does shipping, so again, it's a wash. I won't mess with craigs anymore on anything other than single games. I've dealt with idiots on Ebay, but on CL... they seem to gather and procreate.

[coreys429]

I own a store which I buy games all the time. I get customers that come in that say to me well it sells for this much on ebay. Lucky I have the ebay app on my phone to show what it is really going for to prove them wrong. Also I have had people come in and tell me some of my prices are cheaper then ebay. What I tell people like that well then buy it please and make money off me. That never works.

[jonebone]

As someone with a pretty high amount of selling / buying online transactions, I expect to pay less on forums, and I also charge less on forums. Reasoning:

1) Fees, obviously. 9% on Auction style, 15% on BINs, + about 3% on Paypal. If you are cool with paying me gifted here, then I'm cool with charging you less than the typical eBay rate.

2) Collectors vs. Randoms. I'd rather pass a deal to a fellow forum enthusiast than a random on eBay if net price is equal.

3) Ease of sale. On ebay, it's going to take some time to sell an item. Auctions run 5-7 days on average, and may require relists. BINs usually sit for awhile if they are priced fairly. On these forums, people usually hit on your thread within 24-48 hours, if not sooner. Not to mention, it's pretty easy to make a huge FS thread with 100 items here, while it would take an entire day to make 100 unique auctions on eBay (and pay listing fees for each).

So when you consider all of that, I don't mind passing some deals along here, and I also expect a slight break when buying. If you want to charge eBay prices and tell me "go to eBay", then I have no problem doing that. I buy 90% of my items from there anyway, so it's not like I'm scared of the site or anything.

[T2KFreeker]

The other problem nobody has tackled on the ebay crowd are gougers and shill bidders. Shill bidding from sellers like Sweetstuff4you helped to greatly increase the "Value" of "Rare" items like Jaguar games and systems. It really made it a headache for quite some time to collect for the format. You know it happens too.

[weirdguy]

I think the issue is that people will look on ebay, take the highest BIN and say that it sells for that on ebay.

People never look at the "Ended auctions" and find the actual price that said item sold for.

[Gameguy]

I'm not sure where you are trying to sell said item but I have noticed that the prices I can get for selling things on eBay are generally a lot higher than I can get for selling something locally. I would explain this price difference simply by demand.

On eBay more people are looking for that specific item which drives up the price. If I want top dollar I always sell on eBay. If it isn't worth much as it is then I will throw it on craigslist. That's my opinion. :)
I do live in a good area for local sales, I'm happy about that.

Some stuff does sell better locally, mostly the stuff that's too big or heavy to ship cheaply. For common games Zelda LTTP for SNES sells for around $10-$15 on ebay but still can sell for $20 locally. I don't exactly find spare copies too often but spares are never kept too long. There's some other games like this that sell just as well, or cheaper games can still sell for $3-$5 instead of on ebay for $1 plus shipping.

Some completed auctions on ebay could have sold for a bit more locally.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/300626909217 (more like $80)
http://www.ebay.com/itm/110781706201 (closer to $30-$40 if all complete and working)

It might take several weeks or even a few months, but they'll still sell.

[Atarileaf]

I'm not sure where you are trying to sell said item but I have noticed that the prices I can get for selling things on eBay are generally a lot higher than I can get for selling something locally. I would explain this price difference simply by demand.

On eBay more people are looking for that specific item which drives up the price. If I want top dollar I always sell on eBay. If it isn't worth much as it is then I will throw it on craigslist. That's my opinion. :)

Nail, meet head. This is exactly it. My local gamestore has all kinds of retro games in their store with ebay prices which have sat for years. Why? Although there may be a buyer somewhere in the world for that particular item, they aren't in my city, where only a handful of collectors reside. So if you want that price, you go to where those buyers are but just because Joe Blow on the other side of the world may be crazy enough to buy your game at triple the amount of a normal human being doesn't mean I'm bending over and taking it up the corn hole because my brain happens to function at normal capacity.

So yes, I'd always argue that you can sell the game on ebay for $75 minus your ebay fees (which now includes your shipping costs remember) paypal fees, gas, time and effort or you could avoid all that and sell it to me for $50. . .

. . . but don't expect it both ways.

[mobiusclimber]

I think the issue is that people will look on ebay, take the highest BIN and say that it sells for that on ebay.

People never look at the "Ended auctions" and find the actual price that said item sold for.

This. When people tell you to "sell it on Ebay then" what they are saying is that you have no idea what the item actually sells for and are asking an insane amount for it.

As far as why it's better to sell on a forum, it really comes down to ease of sale, there being more options for you, things like that. If someone wants to give you partial trade and partial cash, it can happen. If someone wants to buy a huge amount of your games at a bit of a discount, it's easy to do it. Listing what you have for sale is a lot easier and quicker, and you only have to take photos of stuff people are interested in (and interested in seeing pics of, I've sold plenty on here w/o taking any pics of the stuff). Sales tend to be BINs but don't sit around forever the way a BIN on Ebay might (unless it's a fairly cheap BIN and/or around Christmas). Finally, I don't like Ebay that much, and I disagree with the direction it's gone in for the last few years. I'd rather not finance the idiots running the place if I can help it. So if I can avoid selling on there, I do.

[mikesides]

Nail, meet head. This is exactly it. My local gamestore has all kinds of retro games in their store with ebay prices which have sat for years. Why? Although there may be a buyer somewhere in the world for that particular item, they aren't in my city, where only a handful of collectors reside. \

That's exactly how it is here. In a city with a bit 200,000 people we only have 1 game store that carries vintage and the prices are so inflated that they seriously have had a lot of the same games they had when I first started collecting 10 years ago. The owner refuses to make deals and doesn't care that his prices aren't realistic. There are only a handful of collectors that I know of in town but none of us are dumb enough to pay his prices.

[Sunnyvale]

One thing a lot of people seem to not realize is the value of a specialty seller. I can't get half of what a good record is worth, because I sell mostly video games, and records are a finicky product when purchased used. The same goes for video games. My board game buddy I frequently mention on the 'Finds' thread has a lot more feedback than I, and is a Top rated seller as well. But he sells mostly physical games; board, RPGs, and some video and PC games, clothes, records... All kinds of stuff, all the time. He can't get what I do for most games, so he trades them to me for things I can't get as much for.

Point is, just taking an average of sales prices don't mean squat. When I trade with mikesides, we go by what the big-boys get. Cause they have knowledge similiar to ours. The sellers who don't test for save function, all controller buttons and ports, hard drive and save batteries, these guys aren't selling the same product even. They're selling a crap shoot, and the buyers know this. So when someone says "Well, this one went for $50, but this other one went for $30, so I want it for $30.", I pay no attention. They're like the dipshits on Pawn Stars that get an item appraised, and want top dollar. You can't even talk to them folks.

[brykasch]

Well it all depends, do I need money fast, can I wait for it to sell, etc. What is the item in question that I am selling. Alot of variables involved.

If I don't need the money fast, just selling, then yeah I can wait. Free listings, and minimal listings = not alot of hassle. I pack well, and anything high dollar requires signature confirmation. I usually just sell games, movies etc. Occasionally systems. I don't deal with items too bulky, as shipping, packing are a PITA.

Locally I use CL, I usually list a tad less than I would on ebay, and usually sell pretty quickly.

Alot of folks think just because its a message board, local etc we should be giving it away, myself I would rather wait for the right price. I know the items, and I do the research before selling something.

[jb143]

I think the issue is that people will look on ebay, take the highest BIN and say that it sells for that on ebay.

People never look at the "Ended auctions" and find the actual price that said item sold for.

I had a goodwill here that used to pull this. They'd tape a printout to the items showing the highest BIN they could find on ebay to justify how much they were overcharging.

I'm sure I'm in the minority here, but when I do buy on ebay, I try to be patient and wait to get lucky so I can get the best deal possible.

[cheesystick]

Although I feel like I could talk on this subject for days, I want to mention something that nobody has talked about yet.

A growing number of retro game retailers are using computer POS systems to determine their prices based off an averaging of completed sales from major online sites, say an averaging of completed sales in the last 6 months from amazon, eBay, and video game price charts or whatever. Some people just build programs that draw off off one site, (usually ebay), but others draw off many or build a rubric for the employees. I have found this to cause a lot of problems.

I remember plundering a local shop I like for SNES sports games I needed. Most prices were in the $2-$5 range, but one soccer game was $17. "Do you know something I don't?" I asked. Well, as it turns out, when that game was priced, only 3 copies were sold in the last 6 months on eBay. Two copies only sold for a few dollars, but one was sealed and sold for over $100, somehow making an average of $17. This is an isolated example, but it goes to show that this method of pricing inherently leads to pricing errors, pushing the prices up rather than down more often than not. Things like condition and completeness are not factored in, and the employee at a glance isn't going to make an "objective" judgement on pricing. Rather, they are probably going to price it in the mid to high range and call it good. You will be lucky to find any retailer, as honest as they may be, that will price something in the low end if the condition is bad. It seems that if they have it in person, it automatically is at least in the middle ground.

These sort of pricing systems simply miss the mark. There are just too many factors that aren't being addressed. Was there a label variant? Did the copy come with extra inserts? How was the condition? Who was the seller? What time of year was it? How many copies were available online at the time? Was the game hyped at the time? Was there some idiot that bought some game for WAY more than he should have, thus greatly skewing the average up for the rest of the sane buyers? A simple POS-style pricing program won't address these issues. My issue is that these systems are becoming increasing more common, (I've ran into at least 5 different stores that use similar type systems), and they lead to insane over-pricing more often than not, and very seldom lead to anything being attractively priced.

The problem is that local sellers, (Hell, even people online), feel entitled to the top-end of these "eBay prices." They are not appealing to the buyer, the product or the situation. If everything on the DP board was priced exactly at eBay prices, then there is no real reason for the trade board to exist at all. As much as I love to support local business, I don't shop at the retro stores that charge exactly eBay prices. Why would I? I can get that shit shipped to my fucking doorstep while I shop in my underwear.

I am a collector. I am the target audience for these stores. I am exactly who they want walking through their doors, yet they are doing nothing to appeal to me as a customer. Their prices are a reflection of only what the craziest people in the world will pay, not what I will. If they can't give me some incentive to buy from them, then I won't shed a tear when they close their doors, or even worse, just become workhorses for eVilbay.

Everybody and their dog thinks that they are entitled to the tippy-top dollar of whatever one thing is worth. It is insulting, maddening even. A lot of good deals for both parties will never be made because this "it goes for X on eBay" shit throws any reasonability out the window. Just throw your soul into the machine why don't you...

[mobiusclimber]

I am a collector. I am the target audience for these stores. I am exactly who they want walking through their doors, yet they are doing nothing to appeal to me as a customer. Their prices are a reflection of only what the craziest people in the world will pay, not what I will. If they can't give me some incentive to buy from them, then I won't shed a tear when they close their doors, or even worse, just become workhorses for eVilbay.

You aren't their target audience. They want the person who knows nothing and just wants to relive their childhood, or share it with their kids. I doubt a game store that really cares about selling games (as opposed to lumber or dish towels or canned beans) would use a program like that for price and stick to it no matter how asinine the results. I've found that places like that have only grown into being game shops when that was the thing that sold the most, or they're franchise stores with locations all over the place.

What I actually see happen more often is after a store has been around for awhile, the people that do the price get a feel for what something will sell for. So it's possible to get a good deal on something the casual audience I mentioned above wouldn't be interested in. It also means all Mario games are worth $15~20. Of course, more often then not it's a combination of the two approaches, meaning there aren't going to be any really good deals.

And yeah, I don't get the thinking myself. But I'm sure there are other factors at play. I went looking for a couple of current gen games at the local retro/import game store and was told they were $40 each new. The two games in question are selling for $10 everywhere (Gamestop, K-Mart, Amazon). When I brought this up I was told "well, I probably paid $37 for them when they first came out." Those games are never going to sell at $40, but they'll hang onto them forever rather than taking the loss.

So that also shows the flip-side of what you're talking about. You were miffed at the $17 price tag because you know "what it goes for" on Ebay better than the store did. The fact is, we all use things like completed auctions to get some sort of gauge to tell what we should pay for something as often as we do to figure out what we should sell it for. If I've gotten something dirt cheap, I'll happily sell it for a bit under Ebay prices (quite a bit if I want it to sell fast), but I'm still using Ebay prices as a guide. I can't think of a better way of figuring out what people are willing to pay for an item then by looking on Ebay.

[Atarileaf]

You aren't their target audience. They want the person who knows nothing and just wants to relive their childhood, or share it with their kids.

That's probably true. The last thing a game store that sells retro would want is someone coming in that they know who knows his stuff. They want the ignorant, the ill informed, or the clueless. Those are the best customers because even though the price is high, they don't know it. They see the old system from their childhood and think "wow, $89 for an Atari 2600 is a great deal right? They're old and hard to find."

Then in comes a guy like me and I look at the $89 price tag, look at them and they look at me and I get that shit eating grin because they know that I know that its overpriced.

And yes, the local game store is "trying" (for a couple of years) to sell an $89 Vader. Unfortunately for them, they've yet to find that ignorant, ill informed, clueless buyer.

[The 1 2 P]

I think the issue is that people will look on ebay, take the highest BIN and say that it sells for that on ebay.

People never look at the "Ended auctions" and find the actual price that said item sold for.

So true. I always use the completed auctions link but because they only cover the last two weeks it's sometimes hard to gauge the value of an item based solely on that, especially rare and uncommon items that may not have had any ended listings during that two week period.

And on a related subject, does anyone know if there is a similiar way to find out prices for ended/sold items on amazon? Just looking at prices listed on there doesn't really tell you anything about a games value.

[mobiusclimber]

As much as I disagree with pricecharts (used to be videogamepricecharts, but I think they changed their name?), they do link to older Ebay auctions that don't show up as "completed auctions" on Ebay (it's possible to find these thru Google, too). Dunno about sold items on Amazon tho. I'd imagine that would be tough for anyone but Amazon to track.

[jonebone]

Amazon completed listings do not exist and are not published everywhere. The reason sites like pricecharting.com are able to see older auctions on eBay is because they subscribe to Terrapeak, which is an eBay provided service that lets you see almost a year of completed auctions I believe. Amazon offers no such service for their website.

[Sunnyvale]

Amazon completed listings do not exist and are not published everywhere. The reason sites like pricecharting.com are able to see older auctions on eBay is because they subscribe to Terrapeak, which is an eBay provided service that lets you see almost a year of completed auctions I believe. Amazon offers no such service for their website.

Terrapeak only goes back 90 days, at least that was all 6 months ago. For I can't remember how much, but an extortionate sum for so little.

I have found that a lengthy google search will often turn up an Ebay auction or 2 that some joe has saved and left up for all to view. Props to them.

[Griking]

When I want to sell something here and ask what the price for it on eBay is, I do so so I can figure out a fair price for it.

For example, a game that sells for $50 with buy it now. eBay takes away what is it, 14% of the price now? So a fair price would be $43.50, but then I may lower it even further, or even use that as the final shipped price. It depends on how much of a profit I want, how quickly I want this to sell, and how well I know the forum users.

And I feel much safer selling something here than on eBay. At least here I don't get psycho whackjobs that can't fucking read auction listings.

But ultimately eBay is the standard that almost everyone bases their prices on. A person may decide to sell for less in person but they rarely will sell without at least checking what something is going for on eBay first.

[Kitsune Sniper]

But ultimately eBay is the standard that almost everyone bases their prices on. A person may decide to sell for less in person but they rarely will sell without at least checking what something is going for on eBay first.Well, yeah, and you want to know why that happens?

People delete the prices they give after the item has sold.

eBay isn't always the first place I look at. I do searches here on DP, because I know the prices will be what they should be. But when I do a search, I see people removed the price and write "SOLD!" instead.

It's irritating. :(

[fahlim003]

That's probably true. The last thing a game store that sells retro would want is someone coming in that they know who knows his stuff. They want the ignorant, the ill informed, or the clueless. Those are the best customers because even though the price is high, they don't know it. They see the old system from their childhood and think "wow, $89 for an Atari 2600 is a great deal right? They're old and hard to find."

Then in comes a guy like me and I look at the $89 price tag, look at them and they look at me and I get that shit eating grin because they know that I know that its overpriced.

And yes, the local game store is "trying" (for a couple of years) to sell an $89 Vader. Unfortunately for them, they've yet to find that ignorant, ill informed, clueless buyer.
There's a couple stores like this around here, at least there used to be. Still, it bothers me they can price all these systems for ridiculous amounts and still manage to sell them. The problem isn't so much the stores but the droves of people who are so willing to throw their money away. ebay has nothing on these kinds of places and 95% of the time it's cheaper to go the ebay route for normal fare. Then there's the people who trade stuff in and that too makes me cringe, especially with the horrible prices (less than 50% of the in-store retail price). I don't blame the game store, again, I lay blame on the consumer not having the brains nor the concern to get good value for their games. Hell, I wish I had the consumer base that these stores have as it's a goldmine.

[Cornelius]

Well, yeah, and you want to know why that happens?

People delete the prices they give after the item has sold.

eBay isn't always the first place I look at. I do searches here on DP, because I know the prices will be what they should be. But when I do a search, I see people removed the price and write "SOLD!" instead.

It's irritating. :(

Hah, that's always bothered me, too, though I'm probably guilty of replacing the prices with 'sold' myself at some time or another.

[mobiusclimber]

Hah, that's always bothered me, too, though I'm probably guilty of replacing the prices with 'sold' myself at some time or another.

Well, let's all make a database then, and put the price we sold stuff at. We can list everything in either "Ebay," "Amazon," "Auction" (for other auction sites), and "Forums." I really think some useful information is just being lost to time here.

[Sunnyvale]

Well, let's all make a database then, and put the price we sold stuff at. We can list everything in either "Ebay," "Amazon," "Auction" (for other auction sites), and "Forums." I really think some useful information is just being lost to time here.

I really like this idea. If the ball gets rolling, I'll post prices religiously.

[Jaruff]

If someone was willing to pay full ebay prices they would have just bought it off ebay and had it delivered right to them, if they're shopping around locally or elsewhere it's probably because they wan't a better deal than what's on ebay. Maybe not by a whole lot, but some sort of deal. Few people want to pay full ebay rates when having to shop around elsewhere, especially when having to travel around locally. Plus only the winning bidder was willing to pay that much, once they bought it chances are they won't want another one. Look at the other lower bids to get a feel to what most people are willing to pay.

For the most part I stick to selling stuff locally. I don't mind selling stuff for less than the ebay going rates, I don't have to worry about packing stuff to ship it, or deal with fees, electronic payment methods, scammers, idiots wanting a refund because they didn't understand what they were bidding on, etc. I get cash in hand so I'm just glad I don't have to deal with that stuff. In some cases I've found that I can actually get more for things locally than the ebay going rate, but it's not exactly all that common.

If I have something to sell locally I follow a simple rule. I take the average eBay and take 10-25% off depending on the item unless it's a big seller (ex: SMB/Duck Hunt which I can get $5 for). I've done more local/flea market selling this year than eBay but I'm moving back to full-time eBay (while continuing locally) next year. Much faster and the money difference isn't that great on many items.

[mobiusclimber]

Does anyone know how to make a database/spreadsheet online that we can all add to? I just had a few Ebay sales I could post to it.

[eskobar]

On ebay, stores or in garage sales, i pay what i think is the correct value.

I want a CIB earthbound but i won't spend 400 usd for it .... but i hate to ask a buyer to make a huge discount just because it is too much ... that is disgusting.

if the value seems too high for me, no purchase; only if i really want the game i can spend a lot on it.

[xelement5x]

Does anyone know how to make a database/spreadsheet online that we can all add to? I just had a few Ebay sales I could post to it.

You could probably make a big 'ol Google Doc or something like that to aggregate the info, and then make a frontend form for submitting the data.