U.S. Sonic with UPC sells for $981.33

[portnoyd]

Clint Dyer?

[NeoZeedeater]

Where did people first get the idea that Sonic was a U.S. game?
Since it was announced, advertised, and released in 1991. No one back in the day would have disputed it being a US (or CDN) release. Now we're in some strange (but fascinating) sticker argument 20 years later.

[play2win]

This is going back about 10 years, but I believe came to this conclusion when reviewing online resources identifying known US games. I used both the release data available on gamefaqs.com:

http://www.gamefaqs.com/sms/563499-sonic-the-hedgehog/data

as well as the game's information in this site's online rarity guide:

http://guide.digitpress.com:8080/DP/cmf/game.cmf?gameid=18426

This was about the time I learned about the UPC Barcode issue. I used the same information resources for Sonic as for the other SMS games to identify US SMS releases and complete my collection.

[TonyTheTiger]

That's what I figured. Pretty much people value Sonic as a U.S. release because they're told that's what it is. While they don't value GameStop Radiant Silverguns as U.S. copies because nobody ever told them it was. I really dislike how arbitrary that is. I think it should be all or nothing in this case.

It's no surprise that I fall on the "none are U.S. games" side. But I think that's the most practical side to stand on. If Sonic gets kicked off offical U.S. game release lists then no harm no foul. But if it stays then all logic says a bunch of U.S. consoles have incomplete release lists right now.

[NeoZeedeater]

It has been brought up already but I think there's a difference between a publisher like Sega deciding to release SMS Sonic in North America and distributing it compared to a company like EB selling imports like Radiant Silvergun. The former should count as an official release. I'm sure Sega of America considered it one.

There's no way I'm counting my copy of Lord of the Sword as an "import" from the US for having a UPC Canada sticker on the back. ;)

That said, I don't quite get why someone would need a UPC sticker to feel like their collection is complete. The "PAL" version has the same box and game. You would think that would be enough to satisfy it counting as the same product for a complete collection. But hey, it doesn't harm me so I don't really care. I'm happy with a loose cartridge.

[TonyTheTiger]

Eh. We've gone back and forth on that but I stand firm that there's genuinely no difference (academically, legally, etc.) between a company selling their foreign product locally or granting a third party the right to do the very same thing.

Otherwise Phantom Dust is not an American game since Microsoft didn't publish it here but instead let Majesco do it. It was Microsoft's own game and they pretty much wanted nothing to do with it in America. And, it also means that when Square sold their Japanese OSTs in America it magically became an American release.

I feel the leap required to justify Sonic as American is a lot further and harder to make than the opposite because of all the loops you have to jump through in order to hold to Sonic being American while eliminating all the other things that are in the same situation. This should really be a pretty simple matter at heart and the fact that there has to be so much mental gymnastics to justify Sonic tells me something is fishy.

[NeoZeedeater]

Hmm, there still could a difference in region patents that wouldn't apply to a situation like Phantom Dust. I'm looking at the European Shenmue II I bought at EB and the NA Shenmue 1 box. One box mentions European patents and one mentions US and Canada.

SOA probably registered SMS Sonic for NA. I doubt that was the case for whoever brought over Radiant Silvergun. I would assume you don't need to make new region patents for importing. These are just guesses on my part. I don't know much about that legal stuff (and I'm wondering why I'm overthinking this topic).

My position is that Sega released the game here in a manner that wasn't really any different than of their other games. It was covered by the gaming media like any other domestic release. Considering it an import seems like some weird technicality to me.

[portnoyd]

I feel the leap required to justify Sonic as American is a lot further and harder to make than the opposite because of all the loops you have to jump through in order to hold to Sonic being American while eliminating all the other things that are in the same situation. This should really be a pretty simple matter at heart and the fact that there has to be so much mental gymnastics to justify Sonic tells me something is fishy.

Clint Dyer, the guy who built the DP SMS section, worked for Sega US when Sonic was released. Maybe you should stop listening to yourself talk and think about what's said to you.

[TonyTheTiger]

Clint Dyer, the guy who built the DP SMS section, worked for Sega US when Sonic was released. Maybe you should stop listening to yourself talk and think about what's said to you.

I'm typing.

And, for the record, I googled Clint Dyer after your first post to see what you meant. An actor's IMDB page came up so I assumed you were just being a flippant prick. How unfair of me.

[Sunnyvale]

I'm kinda amazed how folks are comparing SMS game releases with DS game releases. Let's got to Atari 2600, if we're going to re-vamp a list. I think it's got about 900 too many games. Let's compare with the DS...

To complete your US DS collection, you need all pirate Pokemon carts and all homebrews. Otherwise, we need to revise the Atari 2600 list. And the NES, for that matter. Black cart of Ms Pac Man doesn't count. Or FF1. And Cheetahmen 2?!? Liscensed? Bye-bye!

Different times, different marketing strategies, different records, different laws at the time of release. Now we can split hairs all day long about what list is accurate, but Sonic is still rare as hell and people still want it.

And the first guy to drop $50 on one with the sticker way back when started this shit, not some list on DP or wherever. That just helpsdrive the price up.

Like this thread.

[TonyTheTiger]

Different times, different marketing strategies, different records, different laws at the time of release. Now we can split hairs all day long about what list is accurate, but Sonic is still rare as hell and people still want it.

And the first guy to drop $50 on one with the sticker way back when started this shit, not some list on DP or wherever. That just helpsdrive the price up.

Like this thread.

Fair enough. But it's the UPC that's rare as hell, not Sonic. Which is why it seems more like very rare, perhaps very sought after, and certainly very valuable Sonic-related memorabilia. I never said anybody was "wrong" for wanting it. I just don't see any justification to consider it as anything but an officially endorsed import. Doesn't mean it can't still be a $1,000 import.

[play2win]

Eh. We've gone back and forth on that but I stand firm that there's genuinely no difference (academically, legally, etc.) between a company selling their foreign product locally or granting a third party the right to do the very same thing..

Just my non-legal advice opinion- under Federal Law, there is a distinction. To use my earlier example, a third party being granted rights to sell a good in the US Market that was not originally intended by the Manufacturer for the US Market would be a a grey market goods distributor. Distributors of a good provided by a Manufacturer intending to market this good in the US Market, on the other hand, would not be selling this good as a grey market good.

[TonyTheTiger]

Gray market more or less means unauthorized or unintended. Once there's an agreement involving the original publisher/manufacturer/etc. then it's no longer unintended though, right? Even if there's a third party involved, there's still clear intent on the part of the original manufacturer.

[play2win]

Gray market more or less means unauthorized or unintended. Once there's an agreement involving the original publisher/manufacturer/etc. then it's no longer unintended though, right? Even if there's a third party involved, there's still clear intent on the part of the original manufacturer.
Actualy goods sold without the authorizion of the manufacturer are black market goods. Notwithstanidng, permission to distribute a good in the US Market that was not originally intended for distribution in the US market does not necessarilly indicate original intent.

I may think that Caramilk chocolate bars will sell well in my local US market- I obtain permission form Cadbury in the UK to sell their Caramilk bars in the US market. Generally, with this permission, they are still a grey market good, as they were intended for distribution in the UK market by Cadbury. If Cadbury likes the idea and makes an altered version of the Caramilk bar intended for distribution in my market, then gives me those to distribute, the goods would then not likely be a grey market good.

[skaar]

Wow guys, this is still going?

[TonyTheTiger]

It's this or ponies. Take your pick.

[The Dord]

It's this or ponies. Take your pick.

this > ponies.

[Gameguy]

Plenty of European SMS games were officially distributed in Canada, why aren't those considered to be Canadian releases?

Look at this European listing;
http://guide.digitpress.com:8080/DP/cmf/game.cmf?gameid=18868


Description: European copies were also distributed in Canada.

Why isn't there a separate Canadian listing for this game? Why only a European listing? Why did Sonic get a separate US listing instead of a mere mention in the European listing?

This game is listed as being a Canadian release;
http://guide.digitpress.com:8080/DP/cmf/game.cmf?gameid=36254


Description: This is the only Canadian release that wasn't just the US or European version with an extra UPC sticker, and easily identified by the fact that it credits Irwin Electronics (the Canadian SMS distributor) on the front cover.

Why aren't the other games considered to be Canadian? The others had a different UPC sticker but that wasn't enough to consider them as Canadian, why did Sonic get the US treatment with just the sticker?

[MisterRowland]

I actually remember seeing a ton of these when I was a kid. There was a local Rose's store that sold the SMS and pretty much only had Sonic and a couple of other games. I remember all of the games being behind the counter and having to ask the cashier to hand them to me so I could read the back.

[98PaceCar]

Actualy goods sold without the authorizion of the manufacturer are black market goods. Notwithstanidng, permission to distribute a good in the US Market that was not originally intended for distribution in the US market does not necessarilly indicate original intent.

I may think that Caramilk chocolate bars will sell well in my local US market- I obtain permission form Cadbury in the UK to sell their Caramilk bars in the US market. Generally, with this permission, they are still a grey market good, as they were intended for distribution in the UK market by Cadbury. If Cadbury likes the idea and makes an altered version of the Caramilk bar intended for distribution in my market, then gives me those to distribute, the goods would then not likely be a grey market good.

So what/how much would the product need to change before it would be considered a US product? Is the assignment of a UPC for use in the US enough to justify calling it a US product?

[play2win]

So what/how much would the product need to change before it would be considered a US product? Is the assignment of a UPC for use in the US enough to justify calling it a US product?
Theoretically, the manufacturer would not need to change it at all, they would just need to originally intend to distribute it in the US. However, I would imagine that most manufacturers would make some minor change so that the products destined for the US are somehow distinguishable form their foreign counterparts. With Sonic, Strider, Spiderman, etc., this was apparently accomplished via the respective UPC stickers. Without some distinguishable feature, the manufacturer's intent may be impossible to evidence.

[Sunnyvale]

Fair enough. But it's the UPC that's rare as hell, not Sonic. Which is why it seems more like very rare, perhaps very sought after, and certainly very valuable Sonic-related memorabilia. I never said anybody was "wrong" for wanting it. I just don't see any justification to consider it as anything but an officially endorsed import. Doesn't mean it can't still be a $1,000 import.

Again, if you want to use blankets to define what does and doesn't make for a 'proper' release, then we have other things far more pressing than the three or four SMS games on that list.

If Sega woulda been kicking ass and taking names, it probably woulda been a whole new box, art, manual, cart, etc. But they were scrounging for a quick buck.

What do you value the box of Cheetahmen 2 at? Is this nothing but very valuable Cheetahmen memorabilia? Why is this different than the sticker? Neither is the game proper.

As for the import allegation, all games are imported anymore. Where they are intended to be marketed at is the distinction. There is no law that says this intention is only valid at the time of manufacture, only opinion. And the $$$ say where the popular opinion is. Popular enough, anyway ;)

[NeoZeedeater]

Why aren't the other games considered to be Canadian?
It would be kind of redundant for digitalpress to make a separate Canada category (talking about all systems here). Virtually every US release would just be repeated. I think they should just change "US" to "North America" in the database since it's the same market. The SMS is the only big exception to the two countries being the same for releases. For the handful of SMS games that officially came out in Canada but not the US, they can just note that on the descriptions.

[theclaw]

In-game content original to Canada is even less frequent than that. Aside from French NTSC editions of Kirby's Adventure and The Legend of Zelda A Link to the Past... There's what?

[Gameguy]

It would be kind of redundant for digitalpress to make a separate Canada category (talking about all systems here). Virtually every US release would just be repeated. I think they should just change "US" to "North America" in the database since it's the same market. The SMS is the only big exception to the two countries being the same for releases. For the handful of SMS games that officially came out in Canada but not the US, they can just note that on the descriptions.
While that's generally true, there are certain games from various systems that have specific Canadian variants. Several NES games, SNES games, Genesis games, and others have Canada specific versions. While I don't really need the rarity guide to make separate listings for these versions as they're usually worth the same as the US versions, I still don't get why these Euro SMS games don't count as Canadian releases when they have different UPC codes and the rarity guide actually does have one game listed as a Canadian variant so others could be too. When these Euro games get released in Canada with new UPC codes they're still Euro releases, when a Euro game gets released in the US with a new UPC code it's a US release. How does that make sense?

[D_N_G]

one more sidenote, retailers like bestbuy are always slapping barcode stickers on packaging for releases that do not match the one underneath. they do this for bargain pricing, sale from sub distributors, or store exclusive releases, same goes for warehouse sales. the sku then matches only what is in the specific retailer's system.

[JeremiahJT]

When this issue comes up Sonic, Spiderman, and Strider are always mentioned but what about Golden Axe Warrior? Sometimes I see it listed as just having the bar code added to the Euro release like the rest. Are those instances just wrong or is it slightly different than the other three?

[NerdXCrewWill]

I'm kinda amazed how folks are comparing SMS game releases with DS game releases. Let's got to Atari 2600, if we're going to re-vamp a list. I think it's got about 900 too many games. Let's compare with the DS...

To complete your US DS collection, you need all pirate Pokemon carts and all homebrews. Otherwise, we need to revise the Atari 2600 list. And the NES, for that matter. Black cart of Ms Pac Man doesn't count. Or FF1. And Cheetahmen 2?!? Liscensed? Bye-bye!

Different times, different marketing strategies, different records, different laws at the time of release. Now we can split hairs all day long about what list is accurate, but Sonic is still rare as hell and people still want it.

Care to explain this a little more? How is comparing unlicensed releases of the 2600 and DS anything remotely like comparing UPCs of the SMS and DS?

[Sunnyvale]

Care to explain this a little more? How is comparing unlicensed releases of the 2600 and DS anything remotely like comparing UPCs of the SMS and DS?

Really? Really?!?

OK, unless a 2600 cart was made by Atari, it wasn't liscensed, and wouldn't make the cut on the DS list, would it? Like Pitfall, for example. By modern standards it would be a 'homebrew', eh?

If you try to apply modern methods to 25 year old products, you're comparing apples to oranges. Each list stands on it's own merit, based on where the games were released, and what common sense dictates as part of the library of the console. If one seeks to say 'All console lists musts fall under these strict guidelines', then many of the lists need fixed, and Atari 2600 tops that list.

[NerdXCrewWill]

Really? Really?!?

OK, unless a 2600 cart was made by Atari, it wasn't liscensed, and wouldn't make the cut on the DS list, would it? Like Pitfall, for example. By modern standards it would be a 'homebrew', eh?

If you try to apply modern methods to 25 year old products, you're comparing apples to oranges. Each list stands on it's own merit, based on where the games were released, and what common sense dictates as part of the library of the console. If one seeks to say 'All console lists musts fall under these strict guidelines', then many of the lists need fixed, and Atari 2600 tops that list.

Yeah, I get that you don't like comparing two generations of consoles.

Sure, there really wasn't anything comparable to a licensed/unlicensed distinction for the Atari 2600. No one is disputing that.

There's still no logical reason to object to Bojay adding to the argument that European DS games should be included as part of the NA set because they had an American UPC sticker added.

[play2win]

When this issue comes up Sonic, Spiderman, and Strider are always mentioned but what about Golden Axe Warrior? Sometimes I see it listed as just having the bar code added to the Euro release like the rest. Are those instances just wrong or is it slightly different than the other three?
No, Golden Axe Warrior had the UPC sticker (with additional Trademark notifications) slapped over the Euro UPC as well. There were several other games Sega did this for, most of them late SMS releases. Strider, Spiderman, and Sonic are only mentioned most frequently because they were the last releases, in that respective order, and they are the rarest and most valuable.

[mikesides]

As far as I know there are only 4 games with the sticker bar code: Golden Axe Warrior, Sonic, Spider-Man, and Strider.

[megasdkirby]

Strider, Spiderman, and Sonic are only mentioned most frequently because they were the last releases, in that respective order, and they are the rarest and most valuable.

With the exception of Sonic, those two really aren't that are. Strider can usually be found relatively cheap (less than $20), while Spiderman is a bit more expensive (got mine for around $35).

Unless people all of a sudden got stupidly insane and started bidding ridiculously high amounts for those two games, they aren't that rare...more uncommon. Buster Douglas I would consider rare, though.

[The 1 2 P]

As far as I know there are only 4 games with the sticker bar code: Golden Axe Warrior, Sonic, Spider-Man, and Strider.

Wait a minute....Golden Axe Warrior with the barcode is worth some money???

[Sunnyvale]

Yeah, I get that you don't like comparing two generations of consoles.

Sure, there really wasn't anything comparable to a licensed/unlicensed distinction for the Atari 2600. No one is disputing that.

There's still no logical reason to object to Bojay adding to the argument that European DS games should be included as part of the NA set because they had an American UPC sticker added.

Ok, I wasn't objecting to Bojay saying that, I'm saying it's not remotely the same thing. UPC's aren't the same as they were 20 years ago. For example, go buy Halo 3 from Best Buy, and then take it to Wal Mart without a reciept. The UPC will tell them you didn't get it here. If you ordered something from the Microsoft Company Store, it got a different UPC and Part #. Same art, disc, manual, case... Different UPC code. Do you see where this is going? If you standardize lists with one set of rules, you're gonna have a massive US list for every 6th and 7th gen console. Or, we can accept that it was different in 1991 than it is now, UPC's included. Check it out. Go grab your stack o XBOX games, hop on Ebay, check their catalog, and see how often your UPC's don't match with the catalog. Don't mean the entire catalog is fucked (well, it is, but for different reasons), it means there are several different UPC's for every game nowadays.

Apples don't equal oranges.

[TonyTheTiger]

While I get where you're coming from with that, I think you're overstating the issue. UPCs today may not be what they were 20 years ago (I'm not sure about this, just taking your word on it). But we have evidence of what UPCs did mean back then. In a word, nothing.

And bringing up Atari opens a can of worms that wasn't really an issue as far as Sonic goes. Yes, the days before official licensing schemes are in a league of their own. And, let's be honest, they aren't without their own little quirks. If Air Raid were made today and distributed in the same quantity nobody would give a shit. It's just another example of something the gaming community as a whole seems to suffer from in most respects, namely older is better (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/OlderIsBetter).

But at least with Atari people are up front about what they're cataloging. Everybody knows that there was little in the way of "official" games. And if a game plays on the Atari and is older than a brand new homebrew then it's welcomed in along with everything else. It's at least internally consistent in that respect. Meanwhile, more modern systems, SMS included, the lists are written with more clarity. The line between "official" releases vs. unlicensed vs. homebrew is much better defined. So we should at least expect that same level of clarity with regard to Sonic and other games/merchandise in a similar situation.

And we're not necessarily just talking about games released yesterday. Sonic came out in 1991. Radiant Silvergun was 1998. That's not exactly a long time. I don't think there was any revolution going on between the tail end of the SMS and the twilight years of the Saturn. I posted how UPC codes don't really matter, like, at all for the GBA. And it goes back at least as far as the NES. The European Super Mario Bros. has the same UPC as the American one. So if Sega slapped a new UPC on Sonic it really doesn't seem like evidence they were doing it to create an American version. And for Radiant Silvergun to not have a new UPC apparently doesn't exempt it from possibly being an "American release" in that case. I just don't see the smoking gun.

[theclaw]

Whateve the case is, the Sonic UPC has become viewed as that cataclysmically rare. Aren't there more cart-only copies of Air Raid remaining today than this UPC?

[Sunnyvale]

While I get where you're coming from with that, I think you're overstating the issue. UPCs today may not be what they were 20 years ago (I'm not sure about this, just taking your word on it). But we have evidence of what UPCs did mean back then. In a word, nothing.

And bringing up Atari opens a can of worms that wasn't really an issue as far as Sonic goes. Yes, the days before official licensing schemes are in a league of their own. And, let's be honest, they aren't without their own little quirks. If Air Raid were made today and distributed in the same quantity nobody would give a shit. It's just another example of something the gaming community as a whole seems to suffer from in most respects, namely older is better (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/OlderIsBetter).

But at least with Atari people are up front about what they're cataloging. Everybody knows that there was little in the way of "official" games. And if a game plays on the Atari and is older than a brand new homebrew then it's welcomed in along with everything else. It's at least internally consistent in that respect. Meanwhile, more modern systems, SMS included, the lists are written with more clarity. The line between "official" releases vs. unlicensed vs. homebrew is much better defined. So we should at least expect that same level of clarity with regard to Sonic and other games/merchandise in a similar situation.

And we're not necessarily just talking about games released yesterday. Sonic came out in 1991. Radiant Silvergun was 1998. That's not exactly a long time. I don't think there was any revolution going on between the tail end of the SMS and the twilight years of the Saturn. I posted how UPC codes don't really matter, like, at all for the GBA. And it goes back at least as far as the NES. The European Super Mario Bros. has the same UPC as the American one. So if Sega slapped a new UPC on Sonic it really doesn't seem like evidence they were doing it to create an American version. And for Radiant Silvergun to not have a new UPC apparently doesn't exempt it from possibly being an "American release" in that case. I just don't see the smoking gun.

I'm not a big XBOX collector, but it's patendly obvious on the XBOX releases. Different UPC's all over the place. I do know all the games I have with the 'Microsoft Company Store' sticker have a different UPC than the 'official' release, but I don't see a seperate list for them. I think that most of us don't care because the sticker is goddam ugly, and there's no other difference. Who cares if it came from Microsoft? But if it made it a US release, the only available version of said game as a US release, it would be a diffent story.

I agree UPC's meant less back then than now. But the SMS releases are unique in that this UPC designates a game as a US release. If the stickersw weren't rsare, none of this would matter, I think we all agree on this. If it didn't say 'Sold in the USA' it wouldn't matter, again, we all agree here. Where we diverge is you and a few others think that this is just an oddity, not an 'official' release. Which is where I point out this isn't today. Things are different now on many things involving video game releases, and what m,akes the cut for the list. Each system should be taken on it's own, IMO, and history kept in mind, not 'rules-lawyer' mentalities.

If we had only the sticker and no adverts, no people who worked for Sega, no people who remember the game in stores, then it would be different. Just a sticker. But we have all of those things. And 3 other games that have the same history. Do you see them popping up from the eclectic Ebay sellers from anywhere but the US? (video game sellers don't count. We buy shit from all over.) It's pretty straightforward it seems.

[TonyTheTiger]

But even if we all accept Sonic as a U.S. game, what's not straightforward is why other releases that got essentially the same treatment are not considered U.S. games. I think it's somewhat of a stretch to count Sonic as a U.S. game. But as a stretch it's not that big a deal. While I may disagree I can at least, perhaps begrudgingly, accept it as a weird quirk of the SMS and move on. I've probably accepted worse.

What I can't accept is how people are drawing an arbitrary line in the sand where Sonic as a U.S. game is ok but Radiant Silvergun is crazy talk despite all the blocks being in the same place. We know Sonic got the haphazard release it did because the SMS was on it's deathbed in America. When Radiant Silvergun was sold here the Saturn was also essentially dead. We know Sonic was sold at retail in some capacity. Radiant Silvergun was also sold at retail. We know that Sonic's publisher had a hand in its U.S. distribution. Radiant Silvergun's publisher also certainly had a hand in its distribution. We know Sonic, despite being the European game, gets counted as a U.S. game because there was no other specifically American release. Radiant Silvergun also did not have any other specifically American release.

The only difference (and I don't think this is debatable, it really is the only difference) is the UPC code. But we already know that it's perfectly fine for a game to get a foreign release and retain the same UPC, which means Radiant Silvergun's lack of a separate UPC does not discount it. So, again, why not Radiant Silvergun?

If you think I'm aiming for a reductio ad absurdum then you'd be right. Because I think everybody looks at Radiant Silvergun and figures it always "felt" like an import. I think so, too. I really don't think it qualifies as an American game. But it's so blatantly similar to Sonic that if one counts as American then by extension the other does too.

[Gameguy]

Still nobody seemed to comment on the points that I made. There's an easy way to fix this, and this should be done for all those other games like Strider that just had a barcode slapped on.

1. Edit the European listing to add "European copies were also distributed in the US".

2. Delete US entry for game entirely.

That's all that's done for Canadian versions, I see no reason why this game should be entered differently when it's released the same way as those other Euro releases. It's like the Music Machine record, when people thought it came with the game it used to sell for $100. When people realized it's unrelated it became worthless. That's about the only reason I can think of that's making people consider this Euro release as a US release, they don't want their copies to become worthless. There's a big difference between $5 and $1000 for a minor variant.

[dgdgagdae]

So Gamestop sold Radiant Silvergun, I'm reading in every other post, and now Tony is mad that SMS collectors want to pay $1000 for a variant of Sonic? Is that about right?

Clearly, SMS collectors in general, and a couple in this thread in particular, have decided that this particular version of this particular game is worth enough to them that they will pay what others believe are exorbitant prices to get the item. Why do we need 8 pages of argument against them doing this? Isn't that a lot of what this hobby is? As a comparison, there are people who will pay upwards of $10,000 for a gold NWC cartridge. I don't need to hear how that's different than Sonic with a UPC sticker, the point is that some things are more valuable to some folks than to others. That's what collecting is!

[theclaw]

So Gamestop sold Radiant Silvergun, I'm reading in every other post, and now Tony is mad that SMS collectors want to pay $1000 for a variant of Sonic? Is that about right?

Clearly, SMS collectors in general, and a couple in this thread in particular, have decided that this particular version of this particular game is worth enough to them that they will pay what others believe are exorbitant prices to get the item. Why do we need 8 pages of argument against them doing this? Isn't that a lot of what this hobby is? As a comparison, there are people who will pay upwards of $10,000 for a gold NWC cartridge. I don't need to hear how that's different than Sonic with a UPC sticker, the point is that some things are more valuable to some folks than to others. That's what collecting is!

The sticker wholly in and of itself, disregarding any other factors, holds extreme scarcity to where it'd still be worthy of some value. Even if not associated with the SMS or Sonic. You can't just go buy this UPC whenever you'd like.

[TRM]

Wait, since when did American games receive packaging in Dutch?!?! ;)

[TonyTheTiger]

So Gamestop sold Radiant Silvergun, I'm reading in every other post, and now Tony is mad that SMS collectors want to pay $1000 for a variant of Sonic? Is that about right?

Um, no? Did you even read the thread? Because you're attributing something to me when I've said the exact opposite.


Still nobody seemed to comment on the points that I made. There's an easy way to fix this, and this should be done for all those other games like Strider that just had a barcode slapped on.

1. Edit the European listing to add "European copies were also distributed in the US".

2. Delete US entry for game entirely.

That's all that's done for Canadian versions, I see no reason why this game should be entered differently when it's released the same way as those other Euro releases.

Well, that's pretty much what I figure should happen as it makes the most sense. But if people continue to vehemently insist that Sonic + UPC = American I'm willing to concede since stranger things have happened. What I'm not willing to concede, though, is their imaginary line that separates Sonic from every other release just like it. I think the line needs to go. Of course if they do that then it will show just how absurd the whole thing is. Which is why I think the line is there to begin with, because without it there's no real way to justify Sonic without coming off as cuckoo.

[portnoyd]

You people are exactly why these forums are fucking worthless now.

[TonyTheTiger]

In case you haven't noticed, we've been having a perfectly pleasant conversation about a particular topic of interest, with many different people saying their piece. And it's going to continue. You'll have to realize eventually that you're really not that important. No hate. Just letting you know that, seriously, you're not that important.

[Sunnyvale]

In case you haven't noticed, we've been having a perfectly pleasant conversation about a particular topic of interest, with many different people saying their piece. And it's going to continue.

Here here.


As for Radiant Silvergun, does it have anything that distinguishes a Euro copy from a NTSC? I honestly don't know. If not, that's why there's not a craze over the US release.

And Gameguy, I hate to sound the ass (or be the one to say this), but Canadian releases don't garner the attention that US ones do. I'm not going to dip one toe into the waters of why that is, but that's how it is. That's why the Canadian releases don't get the bucks for a weird sticker.

[davidbrit2]

You people are exactly why these forums are fucking worthless now.

This is why I only buy VGA-graded UPC stickers.

[understatement]

Still nobody seemed to comment on the points that I made. There's an easy way to fix this, and this should be done for all those other games like Strider that just had a barcode slapped on.

1. Edit the European listing to add "European copies were also distributed in the US".

2. Delete US entry for game entirely.

That's all that's done for Canadian versions, I see no reason why this game should be entered differently when it's released the same way as those other Euro releases. It's like the Music Machine record, when people thought it came with the game it used to sell for $100. When people realized it's unrelated it became worthless. That's about the only reason I can think of that's making people consider this Euro release as a US release, they don't want their copies to become worthless. There's a big difference between $5 and $1000 for a minor variant.

I don’t think you could remove the UPC games from the US list because they were not sold in Europe with the UPC stickers! So if anything you would have to say in the US list that they are Euro games with a US UPC sticker. Even if you did that I don’t think it would drop the price it’s just like the EarthBound controversy it’s all about supply and demand.

Sonic without UPS sticker: supply = common and demand = low thus price reflects this.
Sonic with UPS sticker: supply = rare and demand = mid to high thus price reflects this.

I understand what Tony is trying to say but it’s a moot point as there is a way to tell Sonic U.S. from Sonic U.k. while there is no way to tell Radiant Silvergun Japan from the ones sold in the U.S.

It’s the same with NAM-1975 for Neo-Geo the Euro version has black marker all over the exposed woman and the U.S. does not but there’s not much difference in price as it’s about 50/50 with marked and unmarked but if there was only 10% unmarked and 90% had markings I think you would see the same kind of price difference.


Here here.


As for Radiant Silvergun, does it have anything that distinguishes a Euro copy from a NTSC? I honestly don't know. If not, that's why there's not a craze over the US release.

And Gameguy, I hate to sound the ass (or be the one to say this), but Canadian releases don't garner the attention that US ones do. I'm not going to dip one toe into the waters of why that is, but that's how it is. That's why the Canadian releases don't get the bucks for a weird sticker.

Radiant Silvergun is Japan only for the Saturn with no difference from the ones sold over here thus I think you had to get one of the unlocking keys for the Saturn to play it the only difference would be the receipt they got and if that’s the case I have the rarest copy of Dragon Ball GT: Final Bout there is with my Jap copy and its U.S. receipt.

[Gameguy]

Clearly, SMS collectors in general, and a couple in this thread in particular, have decided that this particular version of this particular game is worth enough to them that they will pay what others believe are exorbitant prices to get the item. Why do we need 8 pages of argument against them doing this? Isn't that a lot of what this hobby is? As a comparison, there are people who will pay upwards of $10,000 for a gold NWC cartridge. I don't need to hear how that's different than Sonic with a UPC sticker, the point is that some things are more valuable to some folks than to others. That's what collecting is!
It can still be a rare/valuable variant, but it shouldn't be required for a complete US set. It's like the 3 screw/5 screw NES variants, you shouldn't need all versions of a game to have a complete collection.


I don’t think you could remove the UPC games from the US list because they were not sold in Europe with the UPC stickers!
But from the one actual Canadian variant in the DP Guide;


Description: This is the only Canadian release that wasn't just the US or European version with an extra UPC sticker, and easily identified by the fact that it credits Irwin Electronics (the Canadian SMS distributor) on the front cover. Originally distributed as a pack-in with Canadian systems.
That seems to imply that the Canadian releases have extra stickers too, yet they don't get a separate listing. There still can be a difference in value between variants since Canadian variants aren't that valuable, but they should be classified the same way in the rarity guide. It seems that these UPC sticker games should just get a mention in the Euro sections of the games and that's it.

[TRM]

And just one other comment...it appears that this is one game where one has to have the box in order to have the game. Can a US version of Sonic exist, cart only?

[TonyTheTiger]

No, it can't. That's why it's so daft. A cart only Sonic magically becomes a European copy.

[theclaw]

Nope. Carts can't be identified.

[TonyTheTiger]

Nope. Neither a US cart or manual was created. They cannot be identified from European.

Assuming if and only if Sega even issued any print run intended for the US market (which we do not know), once such a copy is EVER opened again after leaving the factory for longer than the time it'd take to dishonestly swap cart and manual, the origin forever becomes no longer guaranteed authentic.

Still my previous posts' point stands unless we disprove it. I stand by the UPC's rarity.

Of course the UPC is rare. But it's rare memorabilia that happens to be associated with Sonic. That alone may make it worth a pretty penny but that's neither here nor there. While it can still be a rare collectable I don't think it has magical powers to change a random Euro copy into an American one. Presumably a copy has to be created somehow. New versions of games don't pop up out of thin air.

Like I said, there's no smoking gun that Sega took any steps to "create" American copies. There's no evidence that they wanted this copy to be American. They just wanted to sell a copy to Americans, whatever copy they happened to have access to at the time.

If we're going to consider Sega grabbing a box of Sonics from their European stock at random, sticking a UPC label on it, and then selling it to a waning market just because they can as "creating" American copies then we have low ass standards.

EDIT: Sorry, missed ninja edit.

[TRM]

No, it can't. That's why it's so daft. A cart only Sonic magically becomes a European copy.

This is one of my problems with the whole situation. We have a game which has a box with the text in the Dutch language, and likewise, it is the one game that HAS to be bought with the box. I guess SMS collectors who do not collect CIB or CB cannot complete a cart-only collection, like someone could with NES or something.

[understatement]

That seems to imply that the Canadian releases have extra stickers too, yet they don't get a separate listing. There still can be a difference in value between variants since Canadian variants aren't that valuable, but they should be classified the same way in the rarity guide. It seems that these UPC sticker games should just get a mention in the Euro sections of the games and that's it.


If you’re talking about a site like DP’s list where only a few staff members can add things and the primary staff is from the U.S. of course there not going to put all their time to making a llist for every system in every country their going to focus on their own country and a few of the rarer games out side of it. Even if you look at some of the larger non-U.S. listed games most of them don’t have a write-up and/or Scarcity.

If you're talking about a site like R.F. generation where anyone can add a game it's no one’s fault but yours if the Canadian version isn’t on the list go there and add it. (That’s not meant to be as assholey as it sounds just saying don’t take to heart DP’s list it hasn’t been updated in what like 6~7 years or longer)

[NerdXCrewWill]

I think it's reasonable to say a SMS non-CIB collection can be complete without the UPC sticker. That sticker's only necessary if you want the American packaging.

By the way, this thread really makes me want a US copy of Radiant Silvergun for my collection! Also, understatement, where did you get your copy of Final Bout? If it was imported without consent to resell by a mom-and-pop store, I'm going to probably resist your claim to having a US copy. It it was officially sanctioned, though, you should probably hold on to that. It's got to be the centerpiece of your collection!

[TonyTheTiger]

Speaking of Final Bout, there's a game that got two completely separate releases by two completely different publishers in America (including two different UPC codes) yet those are generally considered mere variants of each other rather than separate titles. The re-release even caused the value of the original to plummet. All those changes but, nope, same game.

It's amazing how a European Sonic becomes a completely distinct item for so much less than that. It makes no sense. What, just because there was no other U.S. version of Sonic that it entitles the game to an entry in U.S. release lists in spite of the obvious? That's silly.

[understatement]

I think it's reasonable to say a SMS non-CIB collection can be complete without the UPC sticker. That sticker's only necessary if you want the American packaging.

By the way, this thread really makes me want a US copy of Radiant Silvergun for my collection! Also, understatement, where did you get your copy of Final Bout? If it was imported without consent to resell by a mom-and-pop store, I'm going to probably resist your claim to having a US copy. It it was officially sanctioned, though, you should probably hold on to that. It's got to be the centerpiece of your collection!


I Consider my Final Bout a Jap copy in the same way I would Consider Radiant Silvergun.

I got FB from Game X Change back when the U.S. copy was going for $100+ in 99~2000.

It was just about the same story as Radiant Silvergun it was only there to sell the overstock of PSx systems as the PS2 was about to come out.


Speaking of Final Bout, there's a game that got two completely separate releases by two completely different publishers in America (including two different UPC codes) yet those are generally considered mere variants of each other rather than separate titles. The re-release even caused the value of the original to plummet. All those changes but, nope, same game.

It's amazing how a European Sonic becomes a completely distinct item for so much less than that. It makes no sense. What, just because there was no other U.S. version of Sonic that it entitles the game to an entry in U.S. release lists in spite of the obvious? That's silly.


When FB was rereleased the price went down because more copies where around. If SMS sonic got a U.S. rerelease with all new artwork new UPC new everything there would be more of them and the price would not be where it is.

You don’t want to change your mind and those that disagree don’t want to change their minds about all we can do is agree to disagree. But I would really like to see you find one of these just to see if you would keep to your convictions and sell it on here for $5 or go full hypocrite and bold out MADE IN USA on ebay.

[TonyTheTiger]

You're acting as if my problem has to do with the price. I've said countless times that price has nothing to do with it. Your entire post focuses on the cost of Final Bout and Sonic. Frankly, I'm not an idiot. If I had a copy of Sonic + UPC I'd sell it for a mint right now. I don't care how much people want to pay for it. I just think it's silly to consider it a U.S. game.

[Aussie2B]

Speaking of Final Bout, there's a game that got two completely separate releases by two completely different publishers in America (including two different UPC codes) yet those are generally considered mere variants of each other rather than separate titles. The re-release even caused the value of the original to plummet. All those changes but, nope, same game.

It's amazing how a European Sonic becomes a completely distinct item for so much less than that. It makes no sense. What, just because there was no other U.S. version of Sonic that it entitles the game to an entry in U.S. release lists in spite of the obvious? That's silly.

That's a really good observation too.

I don't know about anybody else, but I'm glad to see that this topic took off (although I've unfortunately fallen way behind with keeping up with this topic). I think it's healthy to debate and reconsider what's been established by the community in the past. I don't care if even Joe himself said SMS Sonic was a US release (not that I'm suggesting he did; I'm just using that has a hypothetical situation), nobody is beyond questioning. I've always found the posts that Portnoyd has made in the past about potentially incorrect/skewed things in the NES collecting community interesting, like about the rarity/value of Bubble Bobble 2, and I don't know why more people aren't willing to go against the grain and not just blindly accept every established bit of information. I can understand why the collectors that actually own the item in question wouldn't want to change their view and potentially devalue or alter the status of their collection, but for everybody else, there shouldn't be any bias.

[NeoZeedeater]

*edit - never mind, I said something that didn't quite make sense. I guess there's no delete.

[understatement]

You're acting as if my problem has to do with the price. I've said countless times that price has nothing to do with it. Your entire post focuses on the cost of Final Bout and Sonic. Frankly, I'm not an idiot. If I had a copy of Sonic + UPC I'd sell it for a mint right now. I don't care how much people want to pay for it. I just think it's silly to consider it a U.S. game.


No, I'm acting like you don't understand what makes SMS Sonic a U.S. game and I'm telling you it is the UPC sticker. That sticker was not sold in China, North Korea, Russia, japan, Brazil, or the U.K. it was only for sale in the U.S.

Going back to what Sunnyvale said about comparing games from the past to games of today it doesn't work hell even comparing one systems games to another doesn't work, like your comparison to Radiant Silvergun even though it was sold in the U.S. it has markings that say it's a Japanese game like NTSC-J, and the GBA games you argue that even tho they all share the same UPC no one counts the Euro game as part of the U.S. list I agree but there are other things besides the UPC that show it's a Euro game.

Now if you look at the EU SMS Sonic and the U.S. SMS Sonic there is a mark that says one is different from the other that's the UPC. Your trying to say that's a Euro variant that was only sold in the U.S. and that sounds like a U.S. release to me, unless there's a way to prove that the UPC sticker was used in Europe.

See, I understand where you are coming from, though I don't believe your right, I'm going to tolerate the shit out of you:ass:.

[TonyTheTiger]

But how does the UPC transform it into an American game? Just...how? We've gone through this pages back about the idea that by giving the game a unique SKU is what makes it different. But we've seen how that's not true. Games do not need different UPC codes to be from different regions. And a game can have multiple UPC codes and not count as multiple games. It's completely arbitrary.

If you're going to say the UPC is what makes the difference you need to justify it somehow. All the evidence points to it not meaning jack. Meanwhile, all arguments going for the UPC angle aren't backed up by anything concrete.

It comes off as reverse logic. Rather than ask whether or not Sonic is American and examine the evidence to come to a conclusion, it seems like you're starting from the conclusion that Sonic is American and using the UPC as proof simply because it's literally the only thing there. If UPC codes were notoriously region specific or something like that then you'd have the evidence to back it up. But they don't work that way. It's completely arcane.

I certainly don't know why they stuck on the sticker, if it was even Sega that did it. But looking at the evidence from a few pages back it doesn't seem to have anything to do with making the game American. It's probably even a stretch to call it a variant. I'm being incredibly generous to do that, I think. It's a separate sticker on the outside of the case. Literally anybody can do that, and they do. It's not a variant in the sense that it had a separate printing or manufacturing. I'm not sure there are any popularly accepted variants out there that have only a single sticker making the difference.

You also can't say that comparing the Master System to the Saturn is inappropriate without showing just how so. You're not really making a case for it. You're just saying that you can't do it and leaving it at that. Radiant Silvergun says NTSC-J? Yeah, and Sonic is partially written in Dutch. I call that a tie.

I happen to think that given the extreme situation the burden of proof falls on the side calling for it to be American. And they simply haven't made their case. You got a mysterious UPC code that could mean lord knows what and Sega trying to squeeze a few more bucks out of its dead Master System. I'm just not seeing it. At absolute best it's a game that is equally American and European, a dual release. But that would mean a person could complete his American Master System collection with any copy of Sonic, sticker or otherwise, since they were all printed for both regions. Either way, the UPC means diddly squat.

[Sunnyvale]

But how does the UPC transform it into an American game? Just...how? We've gone through this pages back about the idea that by giving the game a unique SKU is what makes it different. But we've seen how that's not true. Games do not need different UPC codes to be from different regions. And a game can have multiple UPC codes and not count as multiple games. It's completely arbitrary.

If you're going to say the UPC is what makes the difference you need to justify it somehow. All the evidence points to it not meaning jack. Meanwhile, all arguments going for the UPC angle aren't backed up by anything concrete.

It comes off as reverse logic. Rather than ask whether or not Sonic is American and examine the evidence to come to a conclusion, it seems like you're starting from the conclusion that Sonic is American and using the UPC as proof simply because it's literally the only thing there. If UPC codes were notoriously region specific or something like that then you'd have the evidence to back it up. But they don't work that way. It's completely arcane.

I certainly don't know why they stuck on the sticker. But looking at the evidence from a few pages back it doesn't seem to have anything to do with making the game American.

OK, at this point you seem to be going overboard defending your position. No evidence?!? I put it to you there is no evidence for any SMS or NES game being released anywhere specifically, based on your definition of evidence. We have:

1)Witness testimony of high-ranking Sega officials at the time of release
2)Witness testimony of people who saw it/purchased it in stores in the USA.
3)No copies being found in the wild anywhere else have been reported.
4)Adverts from Sega proclaiming the release of Sonic in the US.
5)Three other games that have the same issue, all being US releases, all being recognized as such.

While I am generally a skeptic, it is wrong to say 'nothing concrete'. Find me concrete proof SE was pulled from shelves, and not just snapped up and hoarded. If you have just testimony and words on a page, you have the same evidence you are condemning.

It sounds like you're heading up the 'the UPC doesn't mean it came from the US, it coulda been sold like that anywhere' creek. At this point, sir, it is you who lack evidence and need to provide it. If I claim Toyotas are made in Zimbabwe, and say words from the president of Toyota aren't evidence in this argument, what exactly can you give me that's sufficient evidence? And does not the burden of proof switch to me at that point? You've made it an impossible-to-convince-you scenario. Short of a time machine, scouring every store in the world in 91, I don't think you will accept anything as evidence. If I am wrong, please give me what you would require for proof that the sticker=US release.

[NeoZeedeater]

If UPC codes were notoriously region specific or something like that then you'd have the evidence to back it up. But they don't work that way. It's completely arcane.
In the case of the SMS, I think they are. I'm surprised I still have this info on my PC but I saved it from when someone mentioned it years ago.

European boxes UPCs start with 4974365
American boxes UPCs start with 010086
Canadian boxes UPCs start with 069044

[Gameguy]

If you're talking about a site like R.F. generation where anyone can add a game it's no one’s fault but yours if the Canadian version isn’t on the list go there and add it. (That’s not meant to be as assholey as it sounds just saying don’t take to heart DP’s list it hasn’t been updated in what like 6~7 years or longer)
I won't add them because they're not really Canadian versions, they're European.

I know the DP guide hasn't been updated in ages, but it was mentioned how that section was written by someone who previously worked for Sega and if he put a US entry for Sonic then that's how it should be. But the same person would have written the other Euro/Canadian releases too so I'm not sure why that same person thought differently about those releases when making the guide.

Clint Dyer, the guy who built the DP SMS section, worked for Sega US when Sonic was released.

[TonyTheTiger]

1)Witness testimony of high-ranking Sega officials at the time of release

Ok, what did they witness? The affixing of the stickers? The distribution of the game? All this proves is that the game was sold in America. That was never the crux of the matter. We'd have to see some specific intent to create American copies, not just distribute European ones.


2)Witness testimony of people who saw it/purchased it in stores in the USA.

Same as above. We know it was sold in American stores. So were a lot of imports. I've mentioned Radiant Silvergun like a bazillion times and I'm starting to realize the repetition is probably becoming annoying.


3)No copies being found in the wild anywhere else have been reported.

I fail to see how this matters. So what if the UPC was exclusive to the batch that was sold in America? You have to show that the UPC makes a difference first. What does UPC have to do with region? Show me something.


4)Adverts from Sega proclaiming the release of Sonic in the US.

This is the same as 1 and 2. We know it was sold in America. Other imports have been sold here. Adverts tell us nothing about whether or not a game is an American copy.


5)Three other games that have the same issue, all being US releases, all being recognized as such.

Three other games that probably shouldn't be counted as U.S. games, then. Are you fishing for hypocrisy? Trust me, I'm all about consistency here.


While I am generally a skeptic, it is wrong to say 'nothing concrete'. Find me concrete proof SE was pulled from shelves, and not just snapped up and hoarded. If you have just testimony and words on a page, you have the same evidence you are condemning.

I have more than testimony and words on a page. I've proven pretty handily that UPC codes don't matter, at least in the context of what we're talking about. I call that pretty concrete. I've not seen anything like that from the other side.


It sounds like you're heading up the 'the UPC doesn't mean it came from the US, it coulda been sold like that anywhere' creek.

No, I'm pretty confident in people's assertions that the UPC only appears on a small number of Sonics and all of those individual items were sold in America. I'm not challenging that fact. So it's not like my argument is based on the possibility that some random Sonic with UPC showed up in Peru. What I'm saying is that even accepting that the Sonics sold in America were all given a UPC, that UPC does not make the game American. It doesn't make the game anything. It's just an arbitrary sticker.


At this point, sir, it is you who lack evidence and need to provide it. If I claim Toyotas are made in Zimbabwe, and say words from the president of Toyota aren't evidence in this argument, what exactly can you give me that's sufficient evidence? And does not the burden of proof switch to me at that point? You've made it an impossible-to-convince-you scenario. Short of a time machine, scouring every store in the world in 91, I don't think you will accept anything as evidence. If I am wrong, please give me what you would require for proof that the sticker=US release.

Again, I've provided both concrete evidence and extrapolated logical scenarios based on the claims of others. That's why I keep hammering on Radiant Silvergun in the first place.

As for your question, some specific intent to create a new version. See below. At least that would be the smoking gun I was talking about. Still an annoying and stupid situation but at least it would be something.


In the case of the SMS, I think they are. I'm surprised I still have this info on my PC but I saved it from when someone mentioned it years ago.

European boxes UPCs start with 4974365
American boxes UPCs start with 010086
Canadian boxes UPCs start with 069044

I'd be interested in hearing more about this. Sales tracking, perhaps? Could make some difference. Still a strange situation, though, especially with that Canada stuff mentioned.

[NeoZeedeater]

Canada was in a weird position with the SMS in that it got both "US-style" English-only boxes and "Euro-style" multi-language ones at the same time. I found it strange as a kid when my friends would sometimes have the same game as me but a different box/instructions. I don't consider these American or European imports, though. That's just how official Canadian releases were (and some late US releases like the Sonic we're talking about).

So whether it was for sales tracking or not, the UPC seems to be how Sega specified region. It's obvious in the later years, they didn't care much about making English-only packaging anymore. It was cheaper just to have one Western box and slap different codes on them. The fact that later boxes mention both Mega Drive and Genesis Power Base converter compatibility shows that they were meant to be region-flexible (even if many didn't make to NA after all).

[TonyTheTiger]

That's a very good point about the Mega Drive/Genesis text. So what's the take away? The clamshells are region specific but everything else is just universal?

[Gameguy]

The Genesis was a bit weirder with releases, there's numerous versions of different games floating around up here all the time. I know someone here on the forums was selling a "rare" Canadian version of Sonic 2 for $30 but that's still somewhat common up here and is maybe worth $5-$10. With some Genesis games the boxes and instructions say Genesis but the cart labels say Mega Drive on them, these I do consider to be Canadian as they have specific boxes and manuals not intended for anywhere else. I don't feel that way with the SMS games as everything was just made for another region and left as is. The new UPCs weren't even applied during manufacturing, they're on the outside of the case because the cases were already sealed shut with a sticker so the inserts couldn't be removed.

[Sunnyvale]

I have more than testimony and words on a page. I've proven pretty handily that UPC codes don't matter, at least in the context of what we're talking about. I call that pretty concrete. I've not seen anything like that from the other side.

No, you've proven that in today's market, they mean nothing. You haven't proven anything regarding the uselessness of UPC's in IDing where a game came from in this specific console's library . (Starting to feel like that's my 'Radiant Silvergun', cause I keep saying it)




No, I'm pretty confident in people's assertions that the UPC only appears on a small number of Sonics and all of those individual items were sold in America. I'm not challenging that fact. So it's not like my argument is based on the possibility that some random Sonic with UPC showed up in Peru. What I'm saying is that even accepting that the Sonics sold in America were all given a UPC, that UPC does not make the game American. It doesn't make the game anything. It's just an arbitrary sticker.

Wow. So if the guy who was half-running the show says the sticker means it's US release, not arbitrary, you disagree based on... A game from 8 years later? DS UPC's? Beating the horse again... Different times, different consoles, different rules apply. Also, should we not defer to the experts who were there?


Again, I've provided both concrete evidence and extrapolated logical scenarios based on the claims of others. That's why I keep hammering on Radiant Silvergun in the first place.

Concrete evidence that Radiant Silvergun had no sticker? Concrete evidence with DS games as evidence? You have shown nothing in regards to Sonic. Nada. 'Extrapolated' is the only word in that sentence I agree with.


As for your question, some specific intent to create a new version. See below. At least that would be the smoking gun I was talking about. Still an annoying and stupid situation but at least it would be something.

I believe them affixing a sticker over the UPC so they could sell it in the States shows some pretty damn specific intent. As does the adverts.

[understatement]

In the case of the SMS, I think they are. I'm surprised I still have this info on my PC but I saved it from when someone mentioned it years ago.

European boxes UPCs start with 4974365
American boxes UPCs start with 010086
Canadian boxes UPCs start with 069044



Yea, I just checked this and this rule is applied on most all (the only time it differed was when SEGA worked with another company) official SEGA releases to this day just checked my House of the Dead Overkill for Wii. So now that seems like some concrete evidence that a SMS Sonic with a UPC starting with 010086 is a U.S. release.

[TonyTheTiger]

Wait, so Sega still does this? That's really interesting.

[theclaw]

Yea, I just checked this and this rule is applied on most all (the only time it differed was when SEGA worked with another company) official SEGA releases to this day just checked my House of the Dead Overkill for Wii. So now that seems like some concrete evidence that a SMS Sonic with a UPC starting with 010086 is a U.S. release.

Looks like it. I checked my Super Monkey Ball, Sonic's Ultimate Genesis Collection, Valkyria Chronicles, Bayonetta...