Is Keith Courage the worst pack in game ever?!

[starsoldier1]

Now I love the Turbografx-16 plus the Japanese edition PC engine was huge over there but I wonder what happened? Despite the cult following, in the end the system got beaten up pretty bad by Nintendo and Sega. Maybe packing in the original TG with the rather average Keith Courage was not the best decision but then I see some fans of the game. Is it really that bad of a title or was it one of the driving factors that killed the momentum of the Turbografx-16 in the first place?

http://youtu.be/s8JDZecPlEo

[fluid_matrix]

While I actually enjoyed the game myself, (just played it through on my PSP a month ago or so) a pack in such as Bonk might have been more beneficial.

[treismac]

Obviously Keith Courage was no Mario or Sonic, but I recall the game fondly, even playing it on occasion. The love for the game might be associative, but whatever. :D Long live the Turbografx-16 and Keith Courage!!!

[Gamingking]

I actually liked Keith Courage.

[Tokimemofan]

That was easily my favorite of the 40+ games I had back then. But that is probably the buggiest game I've ever played.

[Polygon]

I never played Keith Courage but I can tell you that wasn't a deciding factor in the short life of the TG-16.

It had poor marketing and there wasn't a lot of advertising for the system. They tried the same marketing campaign that worked in Japan which didn't work here as we all aren't packed into metropolitan areas. It sold well in large cities, but wasn't well known outside those markets. It didn't have a lot of support from developers. Which could have something to do with the fact that it was beaten to market by the Genesis and also because of Nintendo and their business practices. If you look to the Japanese market you'll see that the PC Engine beat the Genesis to market by one year. That gave them time to solidify a user base and get developers on board. There were also developers who weren't allowed to develop for the TG-16 due to agreements with Nintendo, such as Konami. It's apparent by the abundance of good PC Engine games that we never saw here. There was only one controller port and you had to get an add on to do two. It was odd looking. The add on CD attachment and attachments just don't work. Just ask Sega. On top of that the CD attachment was hard to find and released at $400 which was way too much. The lack of a solid mascot was also a real problem.

Oh, and it wasn't even a true 16-bit console.

[markusman64ds]

4440

Nuff said.

[chrisbid]

super breakout for the 5200
pole position ii for the 7800
hang on/safari hunt for the master system
altered beast for the genesis
gyromite for the nes
poker and blackjack for the intellivision
speedway/spinout/cryptologic for the odyssey 2
cybermorph - jaguar
sol feace - sega cd


just a few on par or worse than keith courage

[treismac]

super breakout for the 5200
pole position ii for the 7800
hang on/safari hunt for the master system
altered beast for the genesis
gyromite for the nes
poker and blackjack for the intellivision
speedway/spinout/cryptologic for the odyssey 2
cybermorph - jaguar
sol feace - sega cd


just a few on par or worse than keith courage

It is crazy to remember that the NES didn't originally come with Super Mario Bros.

[Graham Mitchell]

super breakout for the 5200
pole position ii for the 7800
hang on/safari hunt for the master system
altered beast for the genesis
gyromite for the nes
poker and blackjack for the intellivision
speedway/spinout/cryptologic for the odyssey 2
cybermorph - jaguar
sol feace - sega cd


just a few on par or worse than keith courage



I actually think Sol-Feace is a good game, but yeah Keith Courage wipes the floor with Altered Beast. KC is a well made action game with fairly deep gameplay. Altered Beast, imo, is a trick designed by Sega to get you to put your money in the machine repeatedly. It looks nice, but it's almost unplayable.

[markusman64ds]

I actually think Sol-Feace is a good game, but yeah Keith Courage wipes the floor with Altered Beast. KC is a well made action game with fairly deep gameplay. Altered Beast, imo, is a trick designed by Sega to get you to put your money in the machine repeatedly. It looks nice, but it's almost unplayable.

I liked Altered Beast, then again I also liked Sonic 2006 when I was younger.

[tomaitheous]

I never played Keith Courage but I can tell you that wasn't a deciding factor in the short life of the TG-16.

It had poor marketing and there wasn't a lot of advertising for the system. They tried the same marketing campaign that worked in Japan which didn't work here as we all aren't packed into metropolitan areas. It sold well in large cities, but wasn't well known outside those markets. It didn't have a lot of support from developers. Which could have something to do with the fact that it was beaten to market by the Genesis and also because of Nintendo and their business practices. If you look to the Japanese market you'll see that the PC Engine beat the Genesis to market by one year. That gave them time to solidify a user base and get developers on board. There were also developers who weren't allowed to develop for the TG-16 due to agreements with Nintendo, such as Konami. It's apparent by the abundance of good PC Engine games that we never saw here. There was only one controller port and you had to get an add on to do two. It was odd looking. The add on CD attachment and attachments just don't work. Just ask Sega. On top of that the CD attachment was hard to find and released at $400 which was way too much. The lack of a solid mascot was also a real problem.

Oh, and it wasn't even a true 16-bit console.

Well, it worked in Japan. There was a big push/transition from hucard to CD and NEC replaced the Duo as THEE replacement/main system for the PC-Engine. The CD addon was released at $400 in the US (some stores had it for $350), it quickly dropped to $350 and then $300. It was the lack of software that really hurt it. The SegaCD in the US sold something like 2million units total. That's pretty damn good for a pricey addon with very few must have titles. The CD addon unit for the US TG16 might look kind of funny/odd now, but back then (because I had one) - the tech made it the coolest thing ever. I never had one friend that made statements about it being odd or funny looking. It was more like "wow, CD games! Badass!".

[Eponasoft]

Oh, and it wasn't even a true 16-bit console.
Don't even get me started on this non-sequitur, heh. :)

Keith Courage was definitely not the worst pack-in game ever. It had its faults, sure, most games do... but at least it was fun. The Genesis had the worst pack-in of that generation... Altered Beast. Yeah, the original game was pretty bad to begin with, though it had some interesting concepts... just very poor execution. The Genesis version just made it worse. But then, the PCE versions were even worse. Sonic was a way better pack-in for the Genesis, just as Bonk was a way better pack-in for the TG16. The Sega CD unit came with Sewer Shark where I worked (Saturday Matinee), and that game was really, really bad. When I bought my Playstation 2, I got a combo pack which included the ethernet adapter and one game, which was this completely horrible ATV game. I think I played it for two minutes before putting it back in its case and throwing in Smackdown 4 (the real reason I bought the PS2 in the first place). Sold the crappy pack-in two days later at the local Gamestop.

I don't think Nintendo really ever put out a terrible pack-in... Gyromite wasn't quite as bad as some of the other bomb pack-ins, but definitely not a high point in their history. The Atari 2600 coming with Combat was a slightly better pack-in.

[Polygon]

Well, it worked in Japan. There was a big push/transition from hucard to CD and NEC replaced the Duo as THEE replacement/main system for the PC-Engine. The CD addon was released at $400 in the US (some stores had it for $350), it quickly dropped to $350 and then $300. It was the lack of software that really hurt it. The SegaCD in the US sold something like 2million units total. That's pretty damn good for a pricey addon with very few must have titles. The CD addon unit for the US TG16 might look kind of funny/odd now, but back then (because I had one) - the tech made it the coolest thing ever. I never had one friend that made statements about it being odd or funny looking. It was more like "wow, CD games! Badass!".

I didn't argue that it didn't work in Japan. I said it didn't work here, and despite your argument it didn't work in the U.S. So my point still stands.


Don't even get me started on this non-sequitur, heh. :)

Well sure, it was superior is some aspects but it lacked in others.

[Eponasoft]

Well sure, it was superior is some aspects but it lacked in others.
Well, this in particular was true, and is true, of all competing consoles. The three from the 16 bit era each had their respective strengths and weaknesses; the bit-ness had very little to do with it. Even the big dogs of the current gen differ in various ways, with their own strengths and weaknesses.

[ccovell]

I also had a lot more fun with Keith Courage on the TG than...

California Games on the Lynx
Mario's Tennis on the Virtual Boy
The whole WonderSwan library...

[Emperor Megas]

I might be in the minority here, but I liked Altered Beast, Hang-On and Safari Hunt and Sol-Feace all more than I did Keith Courage in Alpha Zones.

[davidbrit2]

You guys really didn't do your homework on this one.

http://i44.tinypic.com/30lcmkx.jpg

[markusman64ds]

You guys really didn't do your homework on this one.

http://i44.tinypic.com/30lcmkx.jpg

http://john.kism.com/files/2009/10/scared.jpg

[ishashobar]

You guys really didn't do your homework on this one.

http://i44.tinypic.com/30lcmkx.jpg

We have a winner. Lights Out was pretty bad as well.

[courtesi1]

I didn't care for the overworld stuff but the dungeons/underground in Keith Courage was great. I loved the music and it felt very fluid.

[Frankie_Says_Relax]

I love Keith Courage in Alpha Zones!

I'm always bummed that it never got a sequel and it was never released on the Virtual Console for Wii.

[starsoldier1]

While I actually enjoyed the game myself, (just played it through on my PSP a month ago or so) a pack in such as Bonk might have been more beneficial.

I think NEC of America wanted to redesign the TG-16 after Bonk became popular and make it the new pack in title. Problem was NEC still had unsold TG-16 systems and they were forced to continue to sell the original system as is.

[starsoldier1]

Obviously Keith Courage was no Mario or Sonic, but I recall the game fondly, even playing it on occasion. The love for the game might be associative, but whatever. :D Long live the Turbografx-16 and Keith Courage!!!Ohya, playing it again does remind of the good ol' days of 1989!

[Eponasoft]

...and it was never released on the Virtual Console for Wii.
From what I understand, it has something to do with the license... it would apparently cost too much to relicense it, and since it wasn't a stellar performer to begin with (solid, yes... amazing, no), I guess they just left it alone. :(

[SparTonberry]

I thought it was only the Japanese version that was a license game.
Hudson didn't have any problem releasing Blazing Lazers on the VC in Japan (the original Japanese version was a license game).
Though it seems they did skip out on Crater Maze on the Japanese VC (originally a Doraemon game).

[Tokimemofan]

I love Keith Courage in Alpha Zones!

I'm always bummed that it never got a sequel and it was never released on the Virtual Console for Wii.

It was an anime licensed game, the Japanese version: Mashin Eiyuuden Wataru
Yes the hero is a grade schooler, not that the cover art would tell you that, but it is obvious in game. There are 2 others on the Gameboy, 1 on the PlayStation and 1 one the Famicom.
Edit: Worst Pack-in ever=Sewer Shark.

[starsoldier1]

I thought it was only the Japanese version that was a license game.
Hudson didn't have any problem releasing Blazing Lazers on the VC in Japan (the original Japanese version was a license game).
Though it seems they did skip out on Crater Maze on the Japanese VC (originally a Doraemon game).Hudson Soft renamed the game Keith Courage but they didn't edit out the original anime Wateru characters. Pretty dumb move.

[Gameguy]

I never liked Keith Courage, it's not the worst game I ever played but it's far from good.

[Sunnyvale]

Ecco the Dolphin Sega CD. I hate that pile.

[goatdan]

What I think that a lot of people are missing about some of the pack-ins listed is that pack-ins were generally teamed up with a console to show what it could do, and how powerful it was. While you may not look back at a game like Sewer Shark now and *ever* want to play it, when the Sega CD came out that was about as different from anything that you had ever played as it could be, and that was the real reason that it was in there.

Keith Courage had drastically upgraded graphics compared to the NES, and it really showed that off. They were so colorful, bright and big. And that was different yes, it set the system apart.

I'm trying to only think of the *original* pack-in titles, as so many titles get packed into consoles throughout their lives for different reasons it would be difficult to look at them all, and I really can't think of any that weren't impressive *for their time*. Looking back now, I'd argue Sewer Shark probably holds up the worst of them all, but at the time it was revolutionary.

[Tokimemofan]

Even by the standards of the time sewer shark was an atrocity. A Dragon's Lair port would have filled the roll and would have had the name recognition to go with it.

[goatdan]

Even by the standards of the time sewer shark was an atrocity. A Dragon's Lair port would have filled the roll and would have had the name recognition to go with it.

A Dragon's Lair port would have reminded us all that we have done this before. Yeah, Sewer Shark wasn't really "fun" by any known definition of that word today, but it was mind blowingly different than anything you had seen or played by that point. When it first hit, people were wowed by it.

I remember reading everything I could get my hands on about games at that time, and I'm pretty sure that it was GamePro that gave Sewer Shark a *perfect score*.

[swlovinist]

I thought that Keith Courage was a decent pack in. Back in the day I played the game alot and eventually beat it. Not the best but I enjoyed it.

[Frankie_Says_Relax]

Even by the standards of the time sewer shark was an atrocity. A Dragon's Lair port would have filled the roll and would have had the name recognition to go with it.

As a Dragon's Lair aficionado, I'd have been remiss if that was the pack in.

While the Sega CD had some memorable and very servicable laser-disc arcade game ports, Dragon's Lair on the Sega CD was a special kind of atrocity.

I'm thankful every day that we've reached a place where all of the home versions are 99% arcade perfect.

Sewer Shark isn't brilliant, but it's a better bit of functional software than Dragon's Lair on Sega CD.

[Tokimemofan]

As a Dragon's Lair aficionado, I'd have been remiss if that was the pack in.

While the Sega CD had some memorable and very servicable laser-disc arcade game ports, Dragon's Lair on the Sega CD was a special kind of atrocity.

I'm thankful every day that we've reached a place where all of the home versions are 99% arcade perfect.

Sewer Shark isn't brilliant, but it's a better bit of functional software than Dragon's Lair on Sega CD.

Why am I NOT surprised, I forgot that Sega had this way of pissing off developers, had they actually planned it right Dragon's Lair probably would have been a decent launch title rather than a year later crap job

[skaar]

A nice fuck you to Altered Beast from me.

[treismac]

I love Keith Courage in Alpha Zones!

I'm always bummed that it never got a sequel and it was never released on the Virtual Console for Wii.

What the f*ck to both of those! It seems like the system launch title should have been among the first Virtual Console games to come out. Thank goodness China Warrior came out though.

[treismac]

Ohya, playing it again does remind of the good ol' days of 1989!

Good they were, even amazing at times. Hell, I bought a Wii almost entirely so that I wouldn't have to fight with the damn RF cable when I wanted to play my TG-16 games! One of these days, I need to suck it up and buy a Turbo Booster so I can AV that beautiful machine properly to my TV/

[BetaWolf47]

I know it's not considered a "bad" game, but I'm surprised that nobody has mentioned Wii Sports.

[treismac]

I know it's not considered a "bad" game, but I'm surprised that nobody has mentioned Wii Sports.

Considering Nintendo wanted to, and succeeded, marketing the Wii as a video game system for the whole family, the game was a slam dunk. I've known people of many different age groups who rave about Wii bowling, so they achieved what they wanted to with the pack-in. Other than bowling, it is a lousy bunch of games though. ;)

[todesengel]

I think Keith Courage was a decent pack-in and did a pretty good job of showing off the system. Hell the Japanese version of Keith Courage was one of the first PC Engine games I got when I bought a Duo-R. People hate on this game way too much, it's not great but it's fun.

[kedawa]

Sol-Feace is the best pack-in the Sega CD ever got, for whatever that's worth.

[Zing]

I know it's not considered a "bad" game, but I'm surprised that nobody has mentioned Wii Sports.
It would be a bizarre mention in a thread discussing the worst pack-in games considering Wii Sports was worth buying a Wii even if you never played anything else.

[Emperor Megas]

Sol-Feace is the best pack-in the Sega CD ever got, for whatever that's worth.I like the SEGA Genesis Arcade Collection|Sherlock Holmes Consulting Detective combo pack better. I didn't care about Sherlock Holmes (I've still never played it), but it did have Columns, Revenge of Shinobi, Golden Axe and Streets of Rage. I'm probably the only SEGA fan who doesn't like Streets of Rage, but the combination of the other games are better than Sol-Feace, IMO.

[Frankie_Says_Relax]

I know it's not considered a "bad" game, but I'm surprised that nobody has mentioned Wii Sports.

It would never come near my "worst" games list ever.

It would probably even go on my "best" pack-in list, somewhere in the top three.

That game was a fixture in my household for a few years at least. Lots of good memories (recent as they may be) of enjoying Wii Sports with friends & family.

[NE146]

Keith Courage had drastically upgraded graphics compared to the NES, and it really showed that off. They were so colorful, bright and big. And that was different yes, it set the system apart.

EXACTLY. People forget this and look at it with retro-glasses (or maybe they were small children at the time). But in the market atmosphere of the TG16 release, you would come from your nes/sms at home and see the Keith Courage display at the store and say "wow". Once you brought it home though it fell out of favor pretty quickly to the Blazing Lazers and Legendary Axes, but it did in fact show the system off quite well. Ditto for Genesis Altered Beast.

My vote for worst still goes to Atari 5200 Super Breakout. We were all like wtf. LOL

[Orion Pimpdaddy]

Altered Beast may not have been a fun game, but it was a good tech demo. I think that was the point of having it as a pack-in.

[djshok]

I don't know man, Altered Beast was pretty bad, even for a tech demo. There were a lot of late gen NES games that looked and played a hell of a lot better.

[Graham Mitchell]

I don't know man, Altered Beast was pretty bad, even for a tech demo. There were a lot of late gen NES games that looked and played a hell of a lot better.

Well, I think it's biggest attraction was the voice samples. The Genesis came out when I was in 5th grade and I specifically remember my friend who got one coming to school and telling us how amazingly clear the "Wise fwom yo gwave" sample sounded. As such, I think it was a decent tech demo in that regard.

But if they wanted to show off the machine's visual power, Thunder Force II or Space Harrier II would have been a much better choice. But, those are actually good games that people would be willing to pay for, so Sega probably opted to just give away the turd for free.

[NE146]

I don't know man, Altered Beast was pretty bad, even for a tech demo. There were a lot of late gen NES games that looked and played a hell of a lot better.

Played better? Definitely. But I don't know about better visuals though. Altered Beast had BIG and solid graphics/sprites with detailed backgrounds. It LOOKED like the actual arcade game. Altered Beast was definitely next-gen looking.

And that's exactly what I thought as an avid gamer in my 20's (i.e. old :p) at the time. I don't think anything on the NES during the Genesis launch could really compare. Well.. maybe Gradius II, but we never had that in the states. LOL

[Sunnyvale]

Altered Beast had BIG and solid graphics/sprites with detailed backgrounds. It LOOKED like the actual arcade game. Altered Beast was definitely next-gen looking.

QFT
For those of us who stood in lines at the arcade waiting to play Altered Beast, and had bought it for the SMS (Ugh!), the Genny port was awesome. I have my Nomad and 2 of those 10 loose game cases by the back door for when I have a cig. Altered Beast is in one of those cases, next to Battletoads and Castlevania. It's a great game.

[goatdan]

EXACTLY. People forget this and look at it with retro-glasses (or maybe they were small children at the time). But in the market atmosphere of the TG16 release, you would come from your nes/sms at home and see the Keith Courage display at the store and say "wow". Once you brought it home though it fell out of favor pretty quickly to the Blazing Lazers and Legendary Axes, but it did in fact show the system off quite well. Ditto for Genesis Altered Beast.

Exactly -- and I guess the question is, is the strategy better to sell you on a game that you'll quickly want to upgrade, or to sell consumers on a game that they don't feel like they ever need to change, like the Wii did with Wii Sports? Ultimately, which is the better pack-in in the long run? That would be an interesting question...


My vote for worst still goes to Atari 5200 Super Breakout. We were all like wtf. LOL

Yeah, that is the one that I keep coming back to in my head too and thinking that it was just all wrong. I mean, it was an all right version of Super Breakout, but that game wasn't graphically advanced when it came out in arcades, so using that as the initial pack-in is just weird. Considering I never even knew the 5200 existed though, I didn't want to jump in and say anything about it.

[BlastProcessing402]

I'm trying to only think of the *original* pack-in titles, as so many titles get packed into consoles throughout their lives for different reasons it would be difficult to look at them all, and I really can't think of any that weren't impressive *for their time*. Looking back now, I'd argue Sewer Shark probably holds up the worst of them all, but at the time it was revolutionary.


If you're only trying to think of the *original* pack-in titles, then Sewer Shark is out. The original pack-ins for SegaCD were Sherlock Holmes, Sol-Feace, and the 4-in-1 classics, along with a couple of CD+G sampler discs.



Played better? Definitely. But I don't know about better visuals though. Altered Beast had BIG and solid graphics/sprites with detailed backgrounds. It LOOKED like the actual arcade game. Altered Beast was definitely next-gen looking.

And that's exactly what I thought as an avid gamer in my 20's (i.e. old :p) at the time. I don't think anything on the NES during the Genesis launch could really compare. Well.. maybe Gradius II, but we never had that in the states. LOL

Yeah, when I got my Genesis in '89 I was quite impressed by Altered Beast and how it was JUST LIKE THE ARCADE, even though actually comparing the two there is a bit more difference than is evident at first glance. It might not have quite been an arcade at home, but it made us think it was. The promise of no more watered down SMS or NES ports (even though NES ports, looking back, often changed and added so much they were actually better games overall) was quite a thrill.

[Orion Pimpdaddy]

I don't know man, Altered Beast was pretty bad, even for a tech demo. There were a lot of late gen NES games that looked and played a hell of a lot better.

The sizes of the sprites in Altered Beast were a huge step up at the time. The music and voice samples were also way beyond what most home games had to offer. I think it was a wise choice, demographically, too since it had a dark theme and featured "tough men" battling things like a boss that throws severed heads. They probably felt the game would make the system attractive to older teens. The screenshots of Altered Beast being shown in magazines were enough to convince people that this machine was a large step up.

Without Altered Beast, I don't think the system would have sold as well in those early years. Of course it didn't matter anymore once Sonic came around.

[kedawa]

I like the SEGA Genesis Arcade Collection|Sherlock Holmes Consulting Detective combo pack better. I didn't care about Sherlock Holmes (I've still never played it), but it did have Columns, Revenge of Shinobi, Golden Axe and Streets of Rage. I'm probably the only SEGA fan who doesn't like Streets of Rage, but the combination of the other games are better than Sol-Feace, IMO.

I wasn't really a fan of the SEGA Genesis Arcade Collection for a couple of reasons. For one thing, it has the most censored version of Revenge of Shinobi. Also, Golden Axe, the one game that was 'enhanced', is limited to one player, has horrible FM and redbook audio, and plays the wrong music in a couple of spots. I can appreciate what they were trying to do, but the end result is underwhelming and simply inferior to the cartridge version of the collection. It really does nothing to demonstrate the capabilities of the Sega CD.

One thing I do like about it, however, is that the disc image can be easily modified with a custom soundtrack for Golden Axe, which I've done a couple of times to add in the PS2 Sega AGES soundtrack and some heavy metal remixes.

[Zing]

I wasn't aware that people thought Altered Beast was bad on the Genesis.

[Gameguy]

Without Altered Beast, I don't think the system would have sold as well in those early years. Of course it didn't matter anymore once Sonic came around.
They replaced Altered Beast with Sonic because system sales weren't as high as they hoped and they wanted to increase them. Only once Sonic was packed in did the Genesis match and exceed(at the time) SNES system sales. It did ok before the SNES was released, but once that came out Altered Beast had to go. Sega in Japan originally didn't want to pack in Sonic because they thought it was too good to include for free, Sega USA convinced them to change their mind.

[Steve W]

Wasn't Legendary Axe a launch title for the TurboGrafx-16? And if so, do you think that it would have been a better candidate to be the pack-in game? I always thought the graphics on Legendary Axe were better than on Keith Courage. They were big and bright and something that could never be achieved on the NES. And I'd say that Legendary Axe is a little more fun and has a bit more 'personality' than Keith Courage, which I always found to be a little dull and uninteresting.