Retro forum taboos: Why roms and not reproductions and pirate carts?

[treismac]

Is there a legal reason? I know from Nintendo of America's website that they mention specifically their stand against roms in all cases, but there is no mention (that I recall) of reproductions nor pirate carts. While I understand that obtaining roms is much easier than reproductions or pirate carts, the sale of reproductions and pirate carts actually produces money for the manufacturer. (Yeah, I suppose advertising brings in $ for the rom sites, too). I don't see why rom distribution is illegal or at least frowned upon but pirates and reproductions are kosher. What are your thoughts? Why the double standard?

Also, what the hell is the difference between pirate carts and reproductions, anyway? Is it the quality, amount of games, reliability of advertised game(s) actually being in the cart, geographic origin, or that it is for the Famicom rather than the NES?

[Clownzilla]

Reproductions are usually produced from games that were not released or are extremly rare (ie: Nintendo competition carts). Although probably illegal there would currently be no logical reason for the parent companies to go after the reproduction makers. However, if these companie would ever decide to release the games themselves (ie: Nintendo competiton download on Wii) then I can see some legal challenges. Pirate carts essentially have bootlegged roms for the software so I'm sure that Nintendo would not be happy with those alongside pure software roms.

[BeaglePuss]

I don't see why rom distribution is illegal or at least frowned upon but pirates and reproductions are kosher. What are your thoughts? Why the double standard?


It depends on the site/forum. Some sites like DP, NA, and AA appear indifferent to reproductions. Other sites like Sega-16 outright forbid the sale of reproductions.



Also, what the hell is the difference between pirate carts and reproductions, anyway?

What's the difference between pirate and reproduction? Nothing. They're the exact same thing.

I always use the term pirate to describe something made during the lifespan of the system by a foreign manufacturer, and I use the term reproduction to describe newly produced titles for games that were either unavailable domestically or a prototype. With that said, what I call them really doesn't make a difference, they're both grey-market items that should be looked at in the same light.

[Panzerfuzion]

I always thought the whole repro thing was crazy myself, I think the people that sell old repro's get away with it because the games are in some cases 20 years old and the company's simply don't care. I believe the company's that were involved with said game could do something about repro's if they wanted to they simply just don't care. But who knows in the future if sopa passes in some form.

I personally have issues with it just for the hypocrisy of the entire hobby, what if I wanted to make a repro of an original nes box I could say its a repro when I sell it but don't decide to mark the box as such then the person I sell it to turns around and sells it as the real thing. And then you have the whole sealed side of the hobby, who's to stop some random person starting there own grading company which I believe someone on eBay VGA quality I think.

Then there is the whole resaling part of the hobby, forums are very shady who's a reseller and who's a collector. Even people who say they are in it for the collecting tend to seem to be more about the money. Then you have the whole eBay back dooring thing.

I think people as a whole take collecting old games waaaaay to serious just buy what you like and try not to worry about what other people are doing if some guy is resaling something to high on eBay then don't buy it if someone is asking to much for something on CL then move on. But people have full fledged panic attacks over what other people do and spend most of there time bitching about it. So if no one is saying shit about selling repro's then good for the guy making money on it. Unless you are actually stealing from someone else I wouldn't take much else to serious. It's not like this is some highly regulated nationality known hobby. It's just a bunch of guys buying and selling old video games.

[Kitsune Sniper]

I don't like people making repros of freely available, fan-made video game translations.

But that's another rant...

[Panzerfuzion]

I don't like people making repros of freely available, fan-made video game translations.

But that's another rant...

Yea that's another big one, some people think stuff is cool some people think stuff is wrong. I guess my one issue with repros over other things is in a sense it kind of is stealing because you're making money off someone elses work. I definitely don't have much respect for people that do the whole repro thing but unless the company's that had to do with the games step up it's not really my right to bitch about it.

[Parodius Duh!]

Theres a big difference between repros and pirates. One is handmade (and you can tell due to all the wiring, solder, etc...) and one is still made in a factory on an assembly line (and looks legit, close to what an official cart looks like). In regards to legality, well they are all illegal unless its a title within the public domain laws. Even prototypes, chances are (but unlikely) a company still owns the rights to the unreleased product.

[leatherrebel5150]

Here is what I want to know from those against reproductions, carts specifically. I can understand where you might find issue with someone selling them at a profit constantly like a business. But what about the people who just makes one for themselves (I'm talking mainly about games that were never released or hacked games) assuming they don't sell it do you have a problem with that? To me its not much different than burning a cd to listen to.

[Duke.Togo]

In practicality, I see no difference between repros and pirates. I have no problem with either of them existing and being sold, as long as it is clear what they are. The amount of money made from these endeavors aren't enough to warrant attorney's fees in most cases. Is it legally wrong? Yes. Am I personally against it? No.

There is obviously a market for repros and pirates, and the copyright holders aren't going to sell new carts. Some of us enjoy playing games on physical hardware as opposed to emulation, so why should we be excluded from translations and unreleased titles?

I am against counterfeiting. All pirates and repros should be clearly distinguishable from real items.

[treismac]

There is obviously a market for repros and pirates, and the copyright holders aren't going to sell new carts. Some of us enjoy playing games on physical hardware as opposed to emulation, so why should we be excluded from translations and unreleased titles?

Here, here.

[markusman64ds]

Here is how I tell the difference between a pirate and a real cart.

http://www.nintendocity.com/shrines/smb_shrine/smb_pictures/sm_all_stars_cart.jpg

A real licensed cart. Has a nice label. Everything is in the right spot. Nothing unusual.

http://www.famicomarchives.com/ebay/25/IMG_9693.jpg

A pirated cart. Crappy label. Stolen artwork. Wrong characters. Strange title.

[Shulamana]

Repros wouldn't bother me if people didn't slap "official" logos all over the things to make them look more legit.

[Edmond Dantes]

I like that repros exist. I don't like emulators because they don't feel authentic enough--and what's the point of having real hardware if you're not gonna use it?

What I don't like is the whole "donor cart" thing, and how for every repro made there's another game lost forever. This is okay when its something dirt common like Super Mario Bros, but I've heard of people using fairly rare games as donor carts (someone on these very forums once used Bandit Kings of Ancient China as a donor) and that kind of thing just scares me.

[treismac]

I like that repros exist. I don't like emulators because they don't feel authentic enough--and what's the point of having real hardware if you're not gonna use it?

What I don't like is the whole "donor cart" thing, and how for every repro made there's another game lost forever. This is okay when its something dirt common like Super Mario Bros, but I've heard of people using fairly rare games as donor carts (someone on these very forums once used Bandit Kings of Ancient China as a donor) and that kind of thing just scares me.

"Donor carts" concerns me as well. With websites like retrousb selling boards and cases, I believe it is unacceptable to kill a video game that didn't need to die. I have similar feelings about the NES rgb mod where a PPU from a Playchoice 10 is stripped, killing a Playchoice 10. The ethical issue is mitigated in the later case because there is no alternative method to do the rgb mod, which some tech savvy individual should solve.

[Emperor Megas]

What I don't like is the whole "donor cart" thing, and how for every repro made there's another game lost forever. This is okay when its something dirt common like Super Mario Bros, but I've heard of people using fairly rare games as donor carts (someone on these very forums once used Bandit Kings of Ancient China as a donor) and that kind of thing just scares me.In the case of rarer games, I feel the same way.


"Donor carts" concerns me as well. With websites like retrousb selling boards and cases, I believe it is unacceptable to kill a video game that didn't need to die.Don't you think it's better that they get repurposed than to just sit unused in someone's attic, a landfill, or some thrift store's shelf, never to be purchased or played?

[treismac]

Don't you think it's better that they get repurposed than to just sit unused in someone's attic, a landfill, or some thrift store's shelf, never to be purchase or played?

That is a good argument, but who is to say that the game couldn't one day escape from an attic, landfill (doubtful on this one), or a thrift store and find a good home? Also, with my slightly animistic beliefs about video games (among other things), I feel it's a shame to extinguish the soul of a game, regardless of if anyone ever plays it again. They have an inherent value apart from any value anyone else derives from them. This is, of course, an abstract argument about their worth, but since the discussion of ip (which is also an abstract idea) is related to it, I feel it is sorta relevant.

[Emperor Megas]

That is a good argument, but who is to say that the game couldn't one day escape from an attic, landfill (doubtful on this one), or a thrift store and find a good home?I don't see how it matters when odds are heavily in favor of common, shitty, ancient games for are marked $1 each or less not being played, and the games that they're repurposed to become actually being played. Believe me, you'll never have trouble finding a copy of Super Mario Bros/Duck Hunt or Bayou Billy if you really want one, and if you do have trouble locating one, I can PROMISE you that it's not because they've all been repurposed as new games.

[treismac]

One small note on my animistic belief about video games:

I do NOT believe that Bayou Billy has a soul, therefore, puttin' Billy down is on par with scrapping a robot free of the slightest vestige of humanoid-charm.

[Kitsune Sniper]

Repros wouldn't bother me if people didn't slap "official" logos all over the things to make them look more legit.

This bothers me too. It gets even worse when people add fake barcodes... that's just going too far.

[Parodius Duh!]

Im pretty sure nobody uses rare games for donors unless its absolutely necessary, and even then its not like its any super rare title. For Example to get a US copy of Mr. Gimmick, you can only use Batman Return of the Joker, which I would have no care about chopping up for a US copy of Gimmick..... especially compared to that horrendous label version retrozone offers. I like my repros to look as close to official as possible, usually leaving a small but significant marking designating that its a reproduction. Honestly though, if you are collecting for a specific classic system you should be aware of repros and know for a fact what was officially released or not.


If you guys think dudes are out there chopping up Ducktales 2, Panic Restaurant, and Bubble Bobble 2 carts you are highly mistaken.

[ApolloBoy]

"Donor carts" concerns me as well. With websites like retrousb selling boards and cases, I believe it is unacceptable to kill a video game that didn't need to die.
What about the gazillion copies of Madden '9something out there? Those make for excellent donor carts and nobody really gives a crap about them anyway.

[wingzrow]

I like that repros exist. I don't like emulators because they don't feel authentic enough--and what's the point of having real hardware if you're not gonna use it?

What I don't like is the whole "donor cart" thing, and how for every repro made there's another game lost forever. This is okay when its something dirt common like Super Mario Bros, but I've heard of people using fairly rare games as donor carts (someone on these very forums once used Bandit Kings of Ancient China as a donor) and that kind of thing just scares me.

I'm scared too. I'm all for using sports games but when you take something as rare as that and turn it into something else, that could have easily be emulated you've gone too far.

[jb143]

What about the gazillion copies of Madden '9something out there? Those make for excellent donor carts and nobody really gives a crap about them anyway.

No no..you save them for something more practical...
http://i40.tinypic.com/qyepkx.jpg

[Aussie2B]

Yeah, it is maybe a touch hypocritical. I'm up for unlicensed games, myself, ones that are completely original games that were just made without permission from the hardware manufacturer, but actual pirates that steal a preexisting game shouldn't exist, in my book. And they're a bane for collectors that want the real deal but have trouble distinguishing between, say, fake GBA carts and legit GBA carts. It's pretty bad when even GameStop was selling pirates because the store employees didn't know how to tell the difference.

As for repros, I don't like seeing people trying to profit off of stealing games and fan translations, but if someone wants to make their own, that's their business. I just don't understand the fascination myself. There's SO much discussion of repros and homebrews on here these days that it seems like no one even wants to discuss actual licensed, commercial releases anymore (I'm exaggerating, yes, but sometimes I feel like I'm wading through so much of that stuff). Personally, if I want a game that didn't come out in the US, I just buy it. Simple as that. If it's in Japanese, I play it in Japanese. I use an FAQ for some help if its available and I need to, or I figure it out on my own. Very few games absolutely require knowing a language. Even RPGs are typically easy enough to figure out. Talk to everyone in a town, trigger whatever events you need to, explore a dungeon, fight battles. Simple as that. If the actual gameplay is engaging, I don't care if I'm missing out on some of the story (a lot of a video game's story is told visually, anyway). Most of the time in an RPG is usually spent in dungeons. You don't need language to run around exploring, and figuring out the commands of a battle system typically wouldn't take more than a couple minutes of trial and error. And so much is number-based, which is universal (unless you're playing a super Japanese-y game that uses kanji to represent the numbers).

I'm digressing, though. Personally, if I did want to play a translated game, I think I'd buy the legit release and then either emulate the patched version on my PC or get one of those flash carts if I wanted to play the translation on actual hardware. Making a stand-alone fake US release for a single title seems like a massive waste of money and the packaging probably still won't be as nice as the legit foreign release, which is probably a fraction of the price. But different strokes for different folks.

[sloan]

More so than just looking the other way as forum posters discuss hacks, repros, and pirate carts, I fail to understand how sites like AA get by with selling Namco IP directly off their store link while Namco continues to license those same properties to companies like Jaaks Pacific, Radica, etc. Similarly, it is easy for anyone to visit Good Deal Games and see Pac Man Collection available for Colecovision. Is Namco's stance possibly that AA and GDG are selling so few of those games that it is not really a threat?

[Panzerfuzion]

Take this one for example
http://theresistancearmy.files.wordpress.com/2010/02/1990_world_championships_repro.jpg

That's someone making money off officially licensed Nintendo games, they are short versions of the real thing but they are the real thing. But then would you almost consider them demos?
What if someone started taking demos and putting them into fancy cases and selling them. That whole repro world is boarding on to much moral and legal grounds. I wouldn't personally want to be a part of it.

[Panzerfuzion]

Then take the test cartridges
http://www.videogamemuseum.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/Nintendo-NES-NTF2-Test-Cartridge-Version-1-1.jpg

These are worth some money and look like one of the easiest things to fake I've seen.

I know in other hobbies repro's are a huge part of the business such as vintage coke machines and signage, clothing, vintage toys etc...

At least in this hobby the community is really close to a point and the big stuff like the world championship carts are hard to fake just for the fact that people who buy them want a detailed history.

[Parodius Duh!]

"That's someone making money off officially licensed Nintendo games, they are short versions of the real thing but they are the real thing. But then would you almost consider them demos?
What if someone started taking demos and putting them into fancy cases and selling them. That whole repro world is boarding on to much moral and legal grounds. I wouldn't personally want to be a part of it. "


What? this makes no sense at all. Short versions of the real thing but they are the real thing? no they are not. Thats a repro from retrozone, clearly its a repro. NWC are only gold or grey. Therefore it certainly is not a "real thing"

and....demos? demos of what? what is a demo cart?

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"These are worth some money and look like one of the easiest things to fake I've seen.

I know in other hobbies repro's are a huge part of the business such as vintage coke machines and signage, clothing, vintage toys etc...

At least in this hobby the community is really close to a point and the big stuff like the world championship carts are hard to fake just for the fact that people who buy them want a detailed history. "


yeah you can make repros of test carts, keep in mind its nearly impossible to match the label quality, so thats always a dead giveaway.....

[Az]

Honestly though, beyond GBA and Neo Geo carts, has anyone ever bought a counterfeit cart that you honestly thought was the real deal?

Playstation 1/2 & Saturn HK silvers are obvious at first sight to be counterfeits.

I don't think I've ever seen a counterfeit factory produced NES cart. Beyond NWC or other competition carts, I've really not seen any homemade reproductions that were counterfeits.

Every single SNES or MD counterfeit I've ever seen had some form of hideously deformed cart sticker art or box inserts, and even if that wasn't the case most of the time the shell's they use are either from the wrong territory or universal pirate notched shells. To me, as far as the 8 & 16 bit market goes, I don't see how anyone that's even the slightest bit of a collector is going to be duped into buying a boot. If you're dropping 3 & 4 digits on a 20 year old "game tape" chances are you probably have done your homework.

And I don't really understand why anyone would look down at people that buy or play counterfeits. If you're looking to pass them off as the real deal to make a buck, then yeah you're a real piece of shit. If you just want to play the game, why is buying a $5 pirate of Alien Soldier blasphemous yet emulation/flash carts/MAME circle jerks are above reproach?

[Emperor Megas]

No no..you save them for something more practical...
http://i40.tinypic.com/qyepkx.jpgThat's absolutely disgusting. :|


As for repros, I don't like seeing people trying to profit off of stealing games and fan translations, but if someone wants to make their own, that's their business. I just don't understand the fascination myself.I don't think it's anymore unusual than the fascination of any other video games. But then I don't think most people who are into these reproduction or fan-translated games have a 'fascination', they just enjoy playing classic games, and having them in a convenient format that they enjoy and are familiar with.


Personally, if I want a game that didn't come out in the US, I just buy it. Simple as that. If it's in Japanese, I play it in Japanese. I use an FAQ for some help if its available and I need to, or I figure it out on my own.That's like the complete opposite of fun to me. Playing a game and having close to no idea what the hell I'm doing, or what's going on, and having to wade through a walk through, spoiling everything, and simultaneously rendering the whole 'playing' aspect tedium, seems powerfully unfun, IMO. Trying to read only enough in an FAQ as to not reveal more than I care to know about the plot seems laboriously ridiculous if there's a domestic language alternative that I can play like I do every other game. While I'm not fascinated with fan translated imports, I completely understand why people would want them rather than trudge through a menu heavy game in a language COMPLETELY foreign to them. I've known and heard people over the years who act like being an import purist is some sort of badge of honor or something (don't get me started on Otaku). As if enjoying the media in their own native language somehow completely diminishes the experience (despite playing hundreds of Japanese games which are/were officially released domestically in their language).

I honestly don't get it. I mean, why play the domestic release of Final Fantasy (pick a number) at all if it's such a bad thing to have it in English? Why does it matter if it's an official release or an unofficial fan translated release?


Very few games absolutely require knowing a language. Even RPGs are typically easy enough to figure out. Talk to everyone in a town, trigger whatever events you need to, explore a dungeon, fight battles. Simple as that.I don't know (or care) if I'm in the minority, but a pretty large part of why I enjoy RPG's is the engaging story lines. I don't want to "figure it out", I simply want to enjoy it, fully understood and realized.


If the actual gameplay is engaging, I don't care if I'm missing out on some of the storyFair enough, however you don't really know how much of the story you're actually missing out on though. That some could be little, or plenty. Now, I wouldn't presume to tell you or anyone else what they should enjoy, but personally, I care a great deal about the story/plot/events of a game that's chiefly story driven.


I'm digressing, though. Personally, if I did want to play a translated game, I think I'd buy the legit release and then either emulate the patched version on my PC or get one of those flash carts if I wanted to play the translation on actual hardware. Making a stand-alone fake US release for a single title seems like a massive waste of money and the packaging probably still won't be as nice as the legit foreign release, which is probably a fraction of the price. But different strokes for different folks.That sounds like a lot more work than just purchasing a translated cartridge and putting it into your game system. You're not doing the developers or publishers any favor either way when you purchase a game second hand after all, so unless you're mainly in it for the sake of collecting, I don't understand what the big deal is playing a fan translated hardcopy version.

I mean like you said, different strokes, but I think it's strange if someone into gaming can't understand the appeal of wanting to playing games in your native language without jumping through hoops, or using unorthodox methods that hinder the fun and simple ease of play that classic gamers grow up with.

I own a lot of import games, but none of them are Japanese text heavy, and they're all non-text driven genres like puzzle, action, shooters, and platform games. I don't own any fan-translated carts, but I would like to get some one day (for cheap, or course). Especially ones which are 'missing' installments of series that came over.

[Panzerfuzion]

"That's someone making money off officially licensed Nintendo games, they are short versions of the real thing but they are the real thing. But then would you almost consider them demos?
What if someone started taking demos and putting them into fancy cases and selling them. That whole repro world is boarding on to much moral and legal grounds. I wouldn't personally want to be a part of it. "


What? this makes no sense at all. Short versions of the real thing but they are the real thing? no they are not. Thats a repro from retrozone, clearly its a repro. NWC are only gold or grey. Therefore it certainly is not a "real thing"

and....demos? demos of what? what is a demo cart?


I'm not sure what you are talking about or don't understand, I'm talking about the games on that NWC Repro are Super Mario Bros, Rad Racer and Tetris. Those are all officially licensed games from Nintendo but on the repro just like the real thing they are shorted versions because they were for the competition. But the repro cart he is selling has Super Mario Bros, Rad Racer and Tetris on it in playable form. The guy is selling a Reproduction Cart with nintendo games on it. Not sure what part of that didn't make sense to you.

[Aussie2B]

To me, as far as the 8 & 16 bit market goes, I don't see how anyone that's even the slightest bit of a collector is going to be duped into buying a boot. If you're dropping 3 & 4 digits on a 20 year old "game tape" chances are you probably have done your homework.

It can be very difficult at times to tell a real Famicom game from a pirate, so there's at least one example from the 8 and 16-bit generations.


I mean like you said, different strokes, but I think it's strange if someone into gaming can't understand the appeal of wanting to playing games in your native language without jumping through hoops, or using unorthodox methods that hinder the fun and simple ease of play that classic gamers grow up with.

I can understand the appeal of wanting to play a game in English (I mean, I personally almost never import a game if a domestic version is available), and I understand the appeal of not wanting to jump through hoops, which is exactly why I said that if I was to play a fan-translated game, the easiest, most logical approach in my mind is to either emulate on a PC and spend nothing, or, to play on actual hardware, get a flash cart and put as many patched games as you want (and be able to change the contents when updated patches are released or new patches come out). I know flash carts can be pretty pricey, but that seems like nothing compared to paying $50+ for each single game repro. No way would I spend money like that on a fake. But, like I said, that's just me.

[Jack7]

I personally enjoy repros because it kinda gives me that "what-if" feeling to it. The only one I own is Earthboud zero/Mother 1. and i like the idea of having the cartridge and playing it on original hardware and its almost like it was released. I do agree tho that there should be some kind of small indication that it is a repro.

the only thing I can think of to differentiate between a repro and a pirate would have to be quality, but thats a stretch sometimes. theres really not a big difference.
However i do for some reason find a lot of amusement in the demake category of pirate famicom games, like ALTTP or DKC on famicom.

[o.pwuaioc]

What about patched carts? Take FFV, for example, that was only released in Japan, and add an English translation patch to it? (I don't know all the specifics of how that works, only that it does work, and I'd rather have a Japanese Super Famicom cart that plays an English game than emulation or even pure repro).

[Press_Start]

I believe playing Sweet Home on a toploader Nintendo Entertainment with a bonafide NES controller in hand, literally impossible 20 years ago, is like living a dream come true. Emulators, I tried....not the same thing. Yeah, sure, you can buy an aftermarket NES adaptor for your laptop but, imho, there's no experience like plugging a cart, turnin' on the analog tv, poppin' a can of cold soda, and go bonanza like it's 1992. And if developers want a cut? Virtual Console, Xbox Live Arcade, PSN, Steam....so many options have at it, Hoss. If one fan in his basement can translate a rom by himself a decade ago, what stopping a multi-national video game company and its hundreds of employees now?

Heck I think they should've unloaded their vaults this gen, start an aggressive ad campaign to introduce these classics to both old n' new generations, called them "Lost Retro Classics", and encourage consumers to buy Nintendo VC, PSN, XBox Point Cards in every Walgreen, Walmart, Gamestop, and Best Buy out there.

[Emperor Megas]

I can understand the appeal of wanting to play a game in English (I mean, I personally almost never import a game if a domestic version is available), and I understand the appeal of not wanting to jump through hoops, which is exactly why I said that if I was to play a fan-translated game, the easiest, most logical approach in my mind is to either emulate on a PC and spend nothing, or, to play on actual hardware, get a flash cart and put as many patched games as you want (and be able to change the contents when updated patches are released or new patches come out).My father and several of my friends wouldn't know the first thing to do, and I'm sure they aren't alone. Honestly, that whole sentence would be like Greek to them, and to a lot of people who only have a casual interest in retro gaming, and aren't that tech savvy. I hear the conversations all the time in stores that deal in older games. A lot of people who have fallen out of the hobby, but have dusted off an old system for kicks, and grab a few carts at the flea market or gaming specialty stores don't want to do anything but put a cartridge in and turn the power on. Many of them don't know what emulators even are, or flash carts for that matter, but they know how to use eBay and purchase games. I have a friend who was an RPG fiend, but he knew fuck-all about computers (and didn't care, really). He was open to pretty much all platforms, and would definitely spend money on a fan-translated cartridge if it meant playing a game in a series he heard good things about, or played other installments off and enjoyed. I doubt that he would spend $50 for a fan-translation (do they normally go for that much...yikes!), but I'm sure he would have spent half that if not a little more. He's in jail now serving a life sentence for shooting his ex-girlfriend in the forehead, execution style, so that's neither here nor there. :|

With all that said, I understand your point of view a little better now. The current gen game price point of a reproduction cartridge or fan-translated game would definitely deter me, and most of the people who aren't up on things like emulators most likely aren't the people populating gaming forums who are seemingly fascinated with repros and fan-translated carts. In the end my only real concern is the prohibitive pricing of these reproductions. As many others have said, there's plenty to be said for playing an older cartridge title the old fashion way. It just feels right/better to a lot of gamers.

[Jack7]

Heck I think they should've unloaded their vaults this gen, start an aggressive ad campaign to introduce these classics to both old n' new generations, called them "Lost Retro Classics", and encourage consumers to buy Nintendo VC, PSN, XBox Point Cards in every Walgreen, Walmart, Gamestop, and Best Buy out there.

exactly. and with that new 3ds VC thing doing portable classics, bring in some of the gameboy games we didnt get either. mother 3 maybe?

[djshok]

Man I'd love a repro of a translated Mother 3. I have it on a stupid flash cart that I dedicated just to that game, but it's just not the same.

[squirrel_king]

IMO the distinction between repro/bootleg just comes down to the intentions of the makers. If they're out to turn a profit, it's a bootleg. If they only charge for parts and labour, because they want to provide a service to people who want to play otherwise inaccessible games on real hardware, I'd consider that a repro. The quality of the product doesn't matter - bootlegs can be hand-assembled and repros can be professionally produced.

[treismac]

IMO the distinction between repro/bootleg just comes down to the intentions of the makers. If they're out to turn a profit, it's a bootleg. If they only charge for parts and labour, because they want to provide a service to people who want to play otherwise inaccessible games on real hardware, I'd consider that a repro. The quality of the product doesn't matter - bootlegs can be hand-assembled and repros can be professionally produced.

Now, I can't judge the hearts of people, but I am fairly certain that the dude running retrousb.com isn't merely providing a service to fellow retro gamers with repros running from $28 (complete Donkey Kong)-$85 (Nintendo Campus Challenge).

[squirrel_king]

Yeah, in which case I'd consider them bootlegs. Unless the cost of parts is that wildly different between the two carts, but I doubt it.

I could possibly give them the benefit of the doubt since DK is a simple game running on a standard mapper, but Campus Challenge is a custom affair with dip switches and stuff, but I'm not sure there's $57 worth of difference in there.

[Duke.Togo]

Without profit, there would be no motivation to provide this service. This isn't video game communism. If Nintendo would start producing the carts, I'd happily buy from them. Until then, I have to work with the suppliers at hand and expect them to compensated, or learn to do it myself.

[squirrel_king]

Believe it or not, people do things for reasons other than profit. I'm not saying they should *lose* money on the venture, just charge enough to cover their own costs and time.

Look at ROM dumpers, fan translators, fansubbers, magazine scanners and so on. I'd put all that stuff into the same category as repro makers (providing they're doing what they're doing on old, out of print stuff rather than pirating current material) - hobbyists doing something for free to provide a service to a community, all violating copyright law in one way or another, but all morally justified IMO because they all provide things in a way the legit rights holder never would.

But once they start chasing profit, they become a business, and they have a responsibility to follow all the laws and regulations that businesses have to abide by. Otherwise they're just bootleggers profiting off someone else's work, no different to any of the companies in China putting out 999,999,999 in 1 Famicom carts (with four real games on).

(Nintendo themselves will probably never do it for precisely that reason - as a legitimate business that has to jump through all the various legal hoops involved, its just not worth their while. the majority of reproduced games are third-party titles which means Nintendo would have to cut an individual licensing deal with each company, and the market for these things is so small that they would almost certainly lose money. if there was any money in NES carts they never would have stopped making them)

[Gameguy]

If it's in Japanese, I play it in Japanese. I use an FAQ for some help if its available and I need to, or I figure it out on my own. Very few games absolutely require knowing a language. Even RPGs are typically easy enough to figure out. Talk to everyone in a town, trigger whatever events you need to, explore a dungeon, fight battles. Simple as that. If the actual gameplay is engaging, I don't care if I'm missing out on some of the story (a lot of a video game's story is told visually, anyway). Most of the time in an RPG is usually spent in dungeons. You don't need language to run around exploring, and figuring out the commands of a battle system typically wouldn't take more than a couple minutes of trial and error. And so much is number-based, which is universal (unless you're playing a super Japanese-y game that uses kanji to represent the numbers).
I'm assuming for most people that stumbling through a story oriented game without knowing what's going on just seems like a waste of time. It's like claiming that you successfully read a book in Japanese by flipping through each page and looking over every character of text while not knowing what the characters represent or mean in any usable context. You can get through the book just as you can get through a game by triggering certain events just by talking to everybody until something happens, but it's pretty meaningless. It doesn't really matter for action type games or ones with an almost non-existing plot but for story heavy games like RPGs I can see people wanting translations to fully experience the game as much as possible.


Without profit, there would be no motivation to provide this service.
How many fan translation patches have been released for free? Those usually take years to finish, yet it doesn't take years to make a repro cart. It's more like a few hours of work per cart. It's true though that most people making these carts are just in it to make money.


IMO the distinction between repro/bootleg just comes down to the intentions of the makers. If they're out to turn a profit, it's a bootleg. If they only charge for parts and labour, because they want to provide a service to people who want to play otherwise inaccessible games on real hardware, I'd consider that a repro.

Believe it or not, people do things for reasons other than profit. I'm not saying they should *lose* money on the venture, just charge enough to cover their own costs and time.
Why don't you think charging for labour or time is considered making a profit? I hear this all the time when people talk about repros and how they're not making a profit, but they really are. Most of the people defending repros act like they're just doing this to help other collectors out, almost like a type of hero.

"I like my auto mechanic, when I get the bill I'm just charged for parts and labour. There's no 'Profit Fee' added anywhere, I like how he installed my parts for free. He's a really nice guy just helping people out."

That's just as stupid. I wouldn't care if they're honest about making a profit, but the whole "I'm just helping the community and nothing else" fake attitude just annoys me.

[squirrel_king]

Why don't you think charging for labour or time is considered making a profit? I hear this all the time when people talk about repros and how they're not making a profit, but they really are. Most of the people defending repros act like they're just doing this to help other collectors out, almost like a type of hero.

"I like my auto mechanic, when I get the bill I'm just charged for parts and labour. There's no 'Profit Fee' added anywhere, I like how he installed my parts for free. He's a really nice guy just helping people out."

That's just as stupid. I wouldn't care if they're honest about making a profit, but the whole "I'm just helping the community and nothing else" fake attitude just annoys me.

I'm certainly not out to defend anyone, I've never bought a repro in my life and I couldn't particularly give a crap if everyone stopped making them overnight - I'm personally perfectly happy to play rare/unreleased/translated/hacked stuff through emulation. The only reason I'm posting in this thread at all is that I'm personally interested in pirate carts and the like, and it always bugs me when people act like all repros are morally superior to Asian bootlegs seemingly for no reason other than they're not Asian.

I only made the distinction between profit-making and non-profit making on the presupposition that there are probably some repro makers doing it for the right reasons, but I have absolutely no idea how many of them are. Of course any who actually are doing it for profit will pretend they aren't anyway, there's no way to tell, and it's entirely up for debate if charging for "labour" counts as profit or not (I suppose it depends how much you value your own time). But like I said, I don't buy them, I'm not out to defend them. It's up to people that do buy them to decide what is or isn't acceptable to them - I mean, I buy tons of undebatably bootleg bootlegs, I'm in no position to judge.

[Tokimemofan]

I personally don't have much of a problem with it in general. Where I do have a problem is when people start plucking out chips that are uncommon or convenient. Many of the SNES enhancement chips are in more desirable carts and are limited to very few titles. Also there are some that are just asking for a lawsuit, this one made my blood boil: http://www.ebay.com/csc/ocdgamers/m.html?_ipg=&_from=&_nkw=&_armrs=1&LH_Complete=1&rt=nc
Whoever bought those NES earthbound repros is an idiot, the Final Fantasy II repros are even worse.

[M.Buster2184]

I believe playing Sweet Home on a toploader Nintendo Entertainment with a bonafide NES controller in hand, literally impossible 20 years ago, is like living a dream come true. Emulators, I tried....not the same thing. Yeah, sure, you can buy an aftermarket NES adaptor for your laptop but, imho, there's no experience like plugging a cart, turnin' on the analog tv, poppin' a can of cold soda, and go bonanza like it's 1992. And if developers want a cut? Virtual Console, Xbox Live Arcade, PSN, Steam....so many options have at it, Hoss. If one fan in his basement can translate a rom by himself a decade ago, what stopping a multi-national video game company and its hundreds of employees now?

Heck I think they should've unloaded their vaults this gen, start an aggressive ad campaign to introduce these classics to both old n' new generations, called them "Lost Retro Classics", and encourage consumers to buy Nintendo VC, PSN, XBox Point Cards in every Walgreen, Walmart, Gamestop, and Best Buy out there.

Well stated. Everyone has different opinions, but I agree that it is not the same to play a game on an emulator. If someone took the time and know how to put together a repro cart and give people the opportunity to play a game they never originally had the chance to, I welcome it. The only repro cart I own is Star Fox 2 and I love it. I love being able to plug it into my SNES, controller in hand, and play it on my tv. As a side note, I hope a good game wasn't ruined to donate the FX chip for my Star Fox 2 copy, but I don't recall offhand what games utilized the FX chip.

[Jack7]

this one made my blood boil: http://www.ebay.com/csc/ocdgamers/m.html?_ipg=&_from=&_nkw=&_armrs=1&LH_Complete=1&rt=nc
Whoever bought those NES earthbound repros is an idiot, the Final Fantasy II repros are even worse.

dammnnnnn 76 dollars? for a repro with bad box art no less. i went the gamereproductions.com route got the better looking red label for 30. wow, now i remember why i stopped dealing with ebay