New Xbox system will not have a disc drive.

[Buyatari]

http://www.mcvuk.com/news/read/exclusive-no-disc-drive-for-next-xbox/092534

This could be the end for used game stores as we know it.

[TonyTheTiger]

I don't see why. Looks like it'll have some type of media, possibly to avoid Blu-ray.

Honestly, going all digital is like a game of chicken. Everybody is waiting for the other guy to do it first. Not because of the consumer backlash but because you could shoot yourself in the foot if all of a sudden ISPs start heavily shackling their customers' downloads. No console manufacturer wants to be Comcast's bitch. And if all 100 bazillion consoles in American households, from every company, are based around tens of gigs worth of downloads per customer per month, they will be Comcast's bitch.

[OldSchoolGamer]

http://www.mcvuk.com/news/read/exclusive-no-disc-drive-for-next-xbox/092534

This could be the end for used game stores as we know it.

Or the end of Microsoft gaming consoles. Seriously, I do not believe there is enough of a foundation or market penetration
of the Broadband required to make a media-less console viable, at least not that people are willing to pay for.........

[dendawg]

Not on Slashdot/Kotaku/IGN etc....

*Grabs a giant grain of salt*

[markusman64ds]

Maybe Microsoft will put in a cartridge slot! It's unlikely, but the load times would be faster.

[Clownzilla]

Maybe I'm getting old but the idea of a game console without physical media saddens me.

[wingzrow]

As someone who does not enjoy the xbox 360 ( bayonetta aside ) i'm really hoping this fails hard. Sony Vs. Nintendo would be a much healthier environment for games, we don't need three major game companies making systems.

[Bojay1997]

I'm sorry, but where are people getting the idea that there will be "no media" at all? The article itself specifically references a media card just like the Vita has. I do agree that this could kill used retailers, however, as people are struggling with how to resell games on the 3DS that don't allow saves to be deleted and Vita games that have play pass like features.

[Bojay1997]

As someone who does not enjoy the xbox 360 ( bayonetta aside ) i'm really hoping this fails hard. Sony Vs. Nintendo would be a much healthier environment for games, we don't need three major game companies making systems.

How so? Sony has lost far more than any of the three major companies this generation. If anything, they would be the most likely to get out of the market (not that any of three will). Personally, I prefer the choice that three or more major companies provide.

[TonyTheTiger]

As someone who does not enjoy the xbox 360 ( bayonetta aside ) i'm really hoping this fails hard. Sony Vs. Nintendo would be a much healthier environment for games, we don't need three major game companies making systems.

Wut? We need as much competition and variety as the market will sustain. That's how a market stays healthy.

[Kitsune Sniper]

Not on Slashdot/Kotaku/IGN etc....

*Grabs a giant grain of salt*

You think seeing this on Kotaku would make it more credible?

THE HELL IS WRONG WITH YOU?!

[Frankie_Says_Relax]

So what if it has solid state media/cards instead of optical discs?

Not having a disc drive doesn't mean that it won't have physical media.

[wingzrow]

How so? Sony has lost far more than any of the three major companies this generation. If anything, they would be the most likely to get out of the market (not that any of three will). Personally, I prefer the choice that three or more major companies provide.

More choices is not necessarily a bad thing, i just disagree with microsoft's business practices when handling the 360.

The failing systems, the menu revisions, the paying to play online, and mostly the policy where they will not allow a multi platform game on their system that has more features on another system.

I may be pulling that last one out of my ass but i recall reading how the metal gear HD collection has some features removed from the PS3 version because they wouldn't be on the 360 version, effectively neutering bpth versions of this feature ( all ape escape related cameos )

[WCP]

It wouldn't completely shock me if Microsoft went with a Kiosk download type strategy at retailers, rather than individual flash card type storage. As cheap as flash card storage has become, it's still not that cheap. Instead, they could include some type of removable hard drive type thing, that you simply take with you to GameStop, Best Buy, Toys R Us, etc, etc and you plug the thing into a Kiosk in the store, and you buy the game and it copies it to the removable storage. Then you take the removable storage thing back home, plug it into the new Xbox, and you're set. Of course, there are a number of problems with this concept.


1. Cost of the Kiosks - Wouldn't be cheap. Sure, would pay for themselves in a year or so, but the initial cost would be prohibitive. Would be interesting to see how the retailers would react to such an idea, especially GameStop. GameStop stores have a limited amount of floor space.

2. Lines at the Kiosk - We all know what it's like to wait in line behind people at a Redbox machine. It really sucks. People aren't going to be excited about waiting in line at a Kiosk.

3. Time it takes to copy the game over to your storage unit - Copying a 15 gig game, or whatever they are going to end up being, is going to take some time. Will people really want to stand around and wait for 30 to 45 minutes?

4. Buying games for people's birthdays, Xmas, etc, etc. Certainly grandmothers can buy their grandsons a gift card for GameStop, but usually people like to get somebody a specific physical item. Kinda hard to do this with the Kiosk model.

[TonyTheTiger]

The one reason I can see that ditching a disc drive is foolish is because it hinders the whole "living room media center" thing. It'd be hard for MS to push that angle when your machine can't play a DVD. While Netflix support is great and all, it's not like people aren't still buying movies.

[Frankie_Says_Relax]

The one reason I can see that ditching a disc drive is foolish is because it hinders the whole "living room media center" thing. It'd be hard for MS to push that angle when your machine can't play a DVD. While Netflix support is great and all, it's not like people aren't still buying movies.

I'd be interested in statistics of how many people are using their next gen game consoles to play standard definition DVDs vs. using them for Netflix and/or Hulu streaming.

SD DVD is rapidly becoming an antiquated format, there are less "entertainment" stores that specialize in the format ... Coconuts, FYE, Suncoast, are almost all gone and even big box retailers that carry DVDs are transitioning shelf space over to Blu-Ray as the prices continue to drop/normalize on that format and things get re-released or released for the first time.

I'm sure SD DVD will be around for years to come thanks to backwards compatibility and cheap prices on players and media ... BUT, it's certainly not the draw or necessity that it was for game console manufacturers back in the PS2 era.

Wii did fine with no optical movie playback capabilities.

I'd bet that Netflix streaming makes up a pretty sizable portion of people's video watching on their consoles these days.

[TonyTheTiger]

It's not so much whether or not people actually use it for playing DVDs but what a marketing checklist would look like to somebody who's hearing words equivalent to "media center." And part of calling something a media center is implying that people could have nothing but a television and this device and have full-fledged usability. Now, we all know that's not realistic. No more than pictures in home magazines where every appliance in the kitchen is a Kenmore. Most people have no fewer than three or four things connected to their TVs so the need or desire for a completely self-contained media center is pretty small. But the whole point of marketing a media center is to try to get you to think you'll be better off throwing out every electronic device you own and sticking to this one brand.

Now maybe MS won't go for that angle this time. But ditching compatibility with the common media associated with...well...media, you're sort of walking back into the territory of "video game console." That wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing. But it does strike me as something they'd do simply because they can't get away with DVD again and refuse to adopt Blu-ray.

[Bojay1997]

More choices is not necessarily a bad thing, i just disagree with microsoft's business practices when handling the 360.

The failing systems, the menu revisions, the paying to play online, and mostly the policy where they will not allow a multi platform game on their system that has more features on another system.

I may be pulling that last one out of my ass but i recall reading how the metal gear HD collection has some features removed from the PS3 version because they wouldn't be on the 360 version, effectively neutering bpth versions of this feature ( all ape escape related cameos )

I hate to break it to you, but Sony repeatedly releases updates for the PS3 including menu/interface revisions (I had to sit through a mandatory fifteen minute update last week just so I could access the PSN store), I can guarantee they will be charging for online play on their next system (PSN+ is just their first experiment with a pay model) and they also negotiate for exclusive features for multi-platform games just like Microsoft does. Frankly, all of the big three do things I don't agree with, but it certainly doesn't make me wish one or more of them would go away.

[dendawg]

You think seeing this on Kotaku would make it more credible?

THE HELL IS WRONG WITH YOU?!

Are you seriously trying to say that the source listed in the OP is more credible simply because it's not a Gawker owned site?
Seriously....the site posted is the ONLY citation posted thus far. You'd think the bigger sites would be reporting something this big. I guess not, cause there's only one source, a relatively unheard of site until now, but hey, I guess that's all the proof anyone needs. :roll:

[Kitsune Sniper]

Are you seriously trying to say that the source listed in the OP is more credible simply because it's not a Gawker owned site?
Seriously....the site posted is the ONLY citation posted thus far. You'd think the bigger sites would be reporting something big. I guess not, cause there's only one source, a relatively unheard of site until now, but hey, I guess that's all the proof anyone needs. :roll:

No, I'm saying that you thinking Kotaku is a good source of info or news is the problem. Unless everyone got fired and replaced by actual reporters sometime in the past six months, you shouldn't look at it as a credible news source.

[Leo_A]

A site I never heard of having exclusive information on a system we know nothing about at the moment (And who the heck ever says "learnt" like the first sentence of that article)? Needs to be taken with about a ton of salt instead of a grain...

Optical media is so much cheaper per gig than the alternatives mentioned that it makes this easy to dismiss even if it was making the rounds around reliable websites. And Microsoft sure as heck wants to be at the center of your home entertainment and physical media is still important even if it has declined a bit.

Music CD sales are still big business despite years of growth of downloadable alternatives, DVD is the centerpiece of many people's media libraries and is still big business (Although certainly in decline compared to just a few years ago), and Blu-Ray is the only HD media available on the marketplace to purchase today (And I would not be surprised if the Xbox 720 had legacy support for the HD-DVD drive add-on for the 360). Streaming is big business today and growing, but physical media is still very important to far too many people for Microsoft to ignore. People's connection that Blu-Ray equals Sony is no more valid than a format like DVD where Sony also has had a huge stake and a system that doesn't support any of the popular home media formats can hardly be billed as the center of your home entertainment center, which is a angle MS has often used through recent years.

And the 360 is very popular. Backwards compatibility is likely going to be a much more important feature this generation for many people than it was back in 2005 and that will necessitate a disc drive for people to fully take advantage of (How many people have heavily relied on the Games on Demand service? I bet the average is under a game per 360).

Needless to say, I don't believe it. My money is on it utilizing Blu-Ray technology and paying the Blu-Ray Disc Association (And the DVD Forum and whatever industrial organization that handles the CD format) to fully enable playback of media.

[Kitsune Sniper]

Needless to say, I don't believe it. My money is on it utilizing Blu-Ray technology and paying the Blu-Ray Disc Association (And the DVD Forum and whatever industrial organization that handles the CD format) to fully enable playback of media.Microsoft's too proud to give money to Sony, even indirectly. Why do you think they went with HD-DVD for their failed external drive?

[Leo_A]

Sony is a major partner in the DVD Forum, the exact same sort of position they hold in the Blu-Ray Disc Association. Due to Sony's pushing of hardware that can play Blu-Ray and their widespread support of the format, people incorrectly consider it a Sony format. People used to think similarly back around 2000 about DVD and didn't think the competition would utilize that technology, although both competitors have done just that over the past two generations.

Blu-Ray is no more Sony than DVD or CD (Which Sony was also a major force behind). That's one reason the WiiU is going to utilize Blu-Ray technology although they appear to be planning not to pay the license fee to the Blu-Ray Disc Association to enable video playback (Ala what they did the last two console generations with DVD technology, licensing the patents they needed directly from the various partners but saving money by not paying the DVD Forum to enable video playback on those devices).

If it was owned and controlled by Sony rather than a independent organization composed of many partners, I'm sure Nintendo wouldn't be utilizing it. Yet I believe Nintendo has spoken about utilizing Blu-Ray technology and single layered 25 gig disc which is in line with the existing format.

[The 1 2 P]

These rumors are starting to get worst than the Wii U ones, mainly because Microsoft probably won't be making any announcements about their next gen system until next year. They already said they won't be alotting any time for it at their E3 show and I don't blame them. The 360 is doing so well right now(in year 7) that the last thing they want people to do is start focusing on their next system, which is kind of inevitable. But I'm going to put this rumor right next to the one that states you can't play used games on the next Xbox: possible but highly unlikely.

[Leo_A]

When did they announce that they wouldn't have any information about it at E3? I missed that (Not that I'm implying that you're wrong just because I never saw it or don't remember it, I'm just curious).

Edit - Looks like they said "at the moment we have nothing to announce" a couple of months ago in a GameSpot interview which appears to be the source of all these articles about no E3 announcement planned.

So it could still go either way. Stating they have nothing to announce at the moment isn't stating that they have no plans to make an announcement.

I figured they'd wait until 2013, but recently with so many rumors swirling around, I wouldn't be shocked if they made an announcement at E3 this year (Although I still bet on a Fall 2013 release date even if announced this year). But the 360 is so successful like you said that I wouldn't be surprised if they keep the lid closed this year.

[Bojay1997]

Are you seriously trying to say that the source listed in the OP is more credible simply because it's not a Gawker owned site?
Seriously....the site posted is the ONLY citation posted thus far. You'd think the bigger sites would be reporting something this big. I guess not, cause there's only one source, a relatively unheard of site until now, but hey, I guess that's all the proof anyone needs. :roll:

MCV is actually a highly respected industry publication which does employ actual reporters. It's basically the "Variety" or "Hollywood Reporter" of the European game industry and unlike most other print magazines or websites, most game publishers and certainly the European offices actually read it. I know the gaming division of the company I work for has had multiple subscriptions for many years.

[dendawg]

MCV is actually a highly respected industry publication which does employ actual reporters. It's basically the "Variety" or "Hollywood Reporter" of the European game industry and unlike most other print magazines or websites, most game publishers and certainly the European offices actually read it. I know the gaming division of the company I work for has had multiple subscriptions for many years.

Credibility aside, IMHO going all-digital is still a suicidal move sales wise...remember how successful PSP Go was?

[APE992]

Microsoft's too proud to give money to Sony, even indirectly. Why do you think they went with HD-DVD for their failed external drive?

Revisionist history. At the time of its release nobody knew that HD-DVD was going to fail. Truth be told it felt more like Toshiba didn't want to use money to wage a format war when the PS3 was a really cheap BD-ROM player that played PS3, PS2 and PS1 games...at the time.

No way to beat the PS3 if all you wanted was a Blu-Ray player. Just like the PS2 was a sweet $300 DVD player that could play PS2 and PS1 games.

Now you could make an argument that they are too proud/butt hurt at the loss of HD-DVD to license BD tech as a whole. Sony is but one of nine that founded the Blu-Ray Disc Association as well as Hitachi (maker of 360 DVD-ROMs), Samsung (they had RAM in the XBox and likely parts elsewhere), Phillips (also an XBox DVD-ROM manufacturer with LG) amongst others. They probably feel at this point that anyone who wants a Blu-Ray player already has one and that an addon would be too cost prohibitive to sell.

Besides, Sega demonstrated that addons NEVER sell.

[Kitsune Sniper]

Revisionist history. At the time of its release nobody knew that HD-DVD was going to fail. Truth be told it felt more like Toshiba didn't want to use money to wage a format war when the PS3 was a really cheap BD-ROM player that played PS3, PS2 and PS1 games...at the time.

Er... I'm not sure why you're calling it revisionist, as far as I knew, that was what a lot of people thought of when they heard about the HD-DVD drive.

[Bojay1997]

Er... I'm not sure why you're calling it revisionist, as far as I knew, that was what a lot of people thought of when they heard about the HD-DVD drive.

Disagree with that completely. I don't think anybody knew for sure if Blu Ray or HD-DVD would win or even survive at the time the 360 came out. I know a lot of commentators in the computer press were claiming HD-DVD was the way to go because there were going to be HD-DVD computer drives available at a much lower cost than Blu Ray. Ultimately, neither format really took off in the computer world (I'm sure in no small part due to Apple refusing to adopt or support either one and the Blu Ray consortium keeping writeable media very expensive to avoid piracy) as hard drives and various card and stick formats became dirt cheap. While Blu Ray won the home video format war, it was a pretty weak victory given the mediocre DVD and Blu Ray sales during the past few years.

[heybtbm]

Er... as far as I knew.

...which apparently isn't much.

So much anger in this one.

[Griking]

1. Cost of the Kiosks - Wouldn't be cheap. Sure, would pay for themselves in a year or so, but the initial cost would be prohibitive. Would be interesting to see how the retailers would react to such an idea, especially GameStop. GameStop stores have a limited amount of floor space.

I can't imagine that they'd be any more expensive then the Redbox kiosks that are in every grocery store near my home. And as far as how Gamestop would react, well I'm sure that eliminating Gamestop as a middleman altogether is part of the plan.


2. Lines at the Kiosk - We all know what it's like to wait in line behind people at a Redbox machine. It really sucks. People aren't going to be excited about waiting in line at a Kiosk.

I personally don't use Redbox but they have then in my local grocery stores and I've never noticed a long line at them. And even if you do end up having to wait for 2-3 to be taken care of first how is that any different than standing in line at a Gamestop now? Besides I have a feeling that the majority of people would simply just directly download their games from their consoles at home.


3. Time it takes to copy the game over to your storage unit - Copying a 15 gig game, or whatever they are going to end up being, is going to take some time. Will people really want to stand around and wait for 30 to 45 minutes?

this may be an issue but I have a feeling that they'll figure this out. Perhaps having pre-made copies of the most popular games and a flash card exchange program.



4. Buying games for people's birthdays, Xmas, etc, etc. Certainly grandmothers can buy their grandsons a gift card for GameStop, but usually people like to get somebody a specific physical item. Kinda hard to do this with the Kiosk model.

I'd much rather get a gift card then have my mom or wife pick out a game for me that she thinks I'll like.

[The 1 2 P]

When did they announce that they wouldn't have any information about it at E3? I missed that (Not that I'm implying that you're wrong just because I never saw it or don't remember it, I'm just curious).

Edit - Looks like they said "at the moment we have nothing to announce" a couple of months ago in a GameSpot interview which appears to be the source of all these articles about no E3 announcement planned.

I was also referring to this (http://www.industrygamers.com/news/microsoft-confirms-no-show-for-next-gen-xbox/). He states there will be nothing new in 2012(which we all figured anyway) but one could argue there could still be an announcement this year. However, I don't see that happening. One of the keys to doing better than last year is having an even bigger holiday sales period this year and Halo 4 will help that. What won't help that is having the thought of the next Xbox right around the corner looming on all of your consumers minds. So I'm still of the opinion that we won't get any major annoucements until next year.

[Griking]

lol ok, so i'm reading more articles on this site now and its got to be a joke.


MCV has learnt that senior members of the GAME management teams have been told to brace for the possibility of administration.
http://www.mcvuk.com/news/read/d-day-looms-for-game/092556

[Kitsune Sniper]

...which apparently isn't much.

So much anger in this one.

... Who's angry? I'm a PC guy. I've been dealing with Microsoft's shenanigans with other people's technologies and software for years. If they can't buy or copy it then they ignore it or find a way to trash it.

They can't buy or copy this, so what will they do? Ignore it until they have no choice but to adopt it.

Edit:
lol ok, so i'm reading more articles on this site now and its got to be a joke.

http://www.mcvuk.com/news/read/d-day-looms-for-game/092556

Nope. Game has been in financial trouble for some time now. They really are in danger of going bankrupt.

[Berserker]

I can't see Microsoft wanting to be the first ones to try something that risky - it's not their style. When someone else does it, and it works, then they'll do it.

[APE992]

When HD-DVD and Blu-Ray were competing nobody was quite sure which would win out completely. I think more people placed their bets on Blu-Ray due to its inclusion with the PS3 but I don't recall anybody snickering at the HD-DVD addon to the 360 as dead on arrival. Hard to say who thought it was a good idea or if Microsoft may have been given a free license for HD-DVD to help compete with the PS3.

Regardless addons never sell. The fact it was HD-DVD didn't make it a failure, the fact you had to cough up $300 and then some more for an attachment made the addon a failure. The same argument can be applied to the G and N wifi dongles if you want to go by sales figures albeit I'd wager the profit margin on the thing more than made up for low sales.

[Leo_A]

One of the keys to doing better than last year is having an even bigger holiday sales period this year and Halo 4 will help that. What won't help that is having the thought of the next Xbox right around the corner looming on all of your consumers minds. So I'm still of the opinion that we won't get any major annoucements until next year.

My money is on you being right.

The only reason I have even the slightest bit of doubt is the WiiU. While Nintendo has traditionally first revealed their consoles well over a year before release (Which would've meant a 2011 reveal just like we got since I think a late 2012 release has been widely speculated on for quite sometime before we first heard about it), I still didn't think they would announce it last year. The 3DS had just hit and I felt like any news of a new console would divert attention away from that. And the Wii itself was still selling fairly well, unlike the N64 and GCN that were all but dead their last Christmas before being replaced (Although in greatly diminished amounts compared to its glory years), they had Skyward Sword coming up for Christmas (As big of a game just about for traditional Nintendo fans as Halo 4 is for Xbox fans), and Nintendo apparantly was confident enough in its Christmas sales potential with the Wii to keep the MSRP at $150 (I bet there will be $99.99 Wii's this year).

Yet they announced it anyways. So that's why I have a little bit of doubt here since my thoughts about that ended up being completely off (Plus I could see how a Xbox 720 announcement with the system due in 2013 could be a tactic to combat the WiiU this Fall).

[Ryudo]

No disc drive then I won't buy it



@Leo A
Wii-U disc is not base on blu ray but China's version of HD-DVD. CH DVD.
Also remember Wii still hase big releases this year. PAL has Pandora's tower next month. US has Xenoblade and in June in the US The Last Story

[Leo_A]

Wii-U disc is not base on blu ray but China's version of HD-DVD. CH DVD.

That's not what I've read.

And a search for WiiU CH DVD through Google didn't yield even a single reference while a search for WiiU Blu-Ray found many links with discussion about it utilizing the technology..

And 25 gig single layered disc (Something Nintendo themselves have stated is the capacity of their format) fits Blu-Ray to a tee. A quick search for CH DVD shows that disc sizes are 15 gigs for single layered disc and 35 gigs for dual layered disc, neither of which aligns with what we know about the format that the WiiU will use.

[Ryudo]

That's not what I've read.

And a search for WiiU CH DVD through Google didn't yield even a single reference while a search for WiiU Blu-Ray found many links with discussion about it utilizing the technology..

And 25 gig single layered disc (Something Nintendo themselves have stated) fits Blu-Ray to a tee. A quick search for CH DVD shows that disc sizes are 15 gigs for single layered disc and 35 gigs for dual layered disc, neither of which aligns with what we know about the format that the WiiU will use.

Nintendo said it a while back. Can't find the link but it's in Wiki as well. It's based on CH DVD 25 single layer 50 dual 75 triple. (BR is 100 triple)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nintendo_optical_disc

[Leo_A]

I suspect Nintendo didn't say it or it would be plastered across the internet. And I note that that Wikipedia mention lacks a reference.

Guess we will find out in time.

[otaku]

with the budgets and costs of home console games not offering physical media is kinda crazy. I could see it being done if done right (like steam) if this means cheaper games and I'm sure still a better deal for developer/publisher than I'm all for it perhaps they could still print copies for collectors though with goodies as well?

[duffmanth]

Any console manufacturer that goes this route won't be getting my money. Digital downloading is fine for $5 retro games. The files are small, download quickly and don't take up a lot of space on your hard drive. I'm not paying $60-70 for modern titles as a download though, I want a physical copy when paying that much. I don't wanna spend 5 hours waiting for a game to download to play it after spending that kind of money. I don't want my ISP fucking me over on my usage either. I like the whole experience of going to my local game store (NEVER GAMESTOP) and buying a game. I don't like the direction the gaming industry is headed between digital distribution and these fucking online passes.

[BHvrd]

While everyone is buying this "mini pc", i'll be enjoying my current pc that plays more than 75% of current gen Xbox 360 games and i'm sure it will also support 75% of next gens games in full HD and better graphics.

Why anyone will buy into Microsoft next gen is beyond me, almost all the games released are also on pc. Microsoft has shit for exclusives, why buy it? For what game??? Get a pc for gods sake!

OH........BTW, When Xbox 360 shuts down their service for the games you bought like the old Xbox Live service shutdown, i'll still be enjoying my games on steam.

[NayusDante]

Flash media hasn't hit that point where it's economical to compete with BD-ROM capacity. Judging by the file sizes reported by PSN, a PlayStation Vita card is like a 2Gb SD card. Those retail for under $10. At the time of the PS3 launch, a single BD-R was about $15-25. The price of solid-state media that can compete with 25-50Gb optical disc is as much or more than current AAA game MSRP.

If Microsoft is going to produce a proprietary solid-state format, I would expect them to use a 16Gb base spec. That's about $20 per unit to produce. It's almost double what they have with DVD9, but still less than BD-ROM. This could work, because not a lot of games actually use the extended capacity of BD-ROM. Even in the case of the few that do, are they better for it? Some JRPGs on 360 used multiple DVDs, but that space is mostly cutscene banter. Metal Gear Solid 4 is the only example I know of that used a dual-layer BD-ROM and had a somewhat legitimate reason for it.

Whether solid-state is the right move will depend on how industry practices are changing. Right now, it's expensive to produce AAA games that fill a DVD9. I'm guessing that BD-ROM's extra capacity is wasted when a title has to be on both platforms. More space equals more potential content, which requires higher budgets. I want to see the industry go the other way, producing a larger variety of smaller titles with smaller budgets and lower MSRP, so in that case solid-state would absolutely be the way to go. As it is, however, I think the studios would prefer higher capacity, larger projects, and less variety.


I do not believe that a console built around a digital distribution model would work right now. Rural areas are still struggling to get broadband. They could counter this with a kiosk system, but that could be hit-or-miss. However, Microsoft has been trying to push the 360 as a sort of cablebox replacement. They could do something with telecom operators similar to Sega Channel, but something tells me we're not quite ready for that.

[Gamereviewgod]

While everyone is buying this "mini pc", i'll be enjoying my current pc that plays more than 75% of current gen Xbox 360 games and i'm sure it will also support 75% of next gens games in full HD and better graphics.

Why anyone will buy into Microsoft next gen is beyond me, almost all the games released are also on pc. Microsoft has shit for exclusives, why buy it? For what game??? Get a pc for gods sake!

OH........BTW, When Xbox 360 shuts down their service for the games you bought like the old Xbox Live service shutdown, i'll still be enjoying my games on steam.

And when Steam shuts down, I'll still be enjoying my physical copies of 360 games... so...

I hate the PC gaming experience. I'm not going to screw around with graphics settings to find a sweet spot. I'm not going to hook up a PC to my home theater. I'm not letting Valve own all of my software. I'm not going to use a keyboard/mouse combo. None of my gaming friends play on the PC. I don't want to use a device for work and gaming.

I love Halo. I love Gears of War. I love Forza. So no, their exclusives are hardly shit. Please, take the PC elitism elsewhere.

[Gamereviewgod]

If Microsoft is going to produce a proprietary solid-state format, I would expect them to use a 16Gb base spec. That's about $20 per unit to produce.

Considering 16GB SD cards cost less than $20, I doubt that will be the case. Not saying they'll use SD cards, just that in bulk, memory of that size can be much cheaper to product.

And no one has considered why they'll use SD-like media? It's writeable. They can lock it to hardware or accounts.

[Graham Mitchell]

While everyone is buying this "mini pc", i'll be enjoying my current pc that plays more than 75% of current gen Xbox 360 games and i'm sure it will also support 75% of next gens games in full HD and better graphics.

Why anyone will buy into Microsoft next gen is beyond me, almost all the games released are also on pc. Microsoft has shit for exclusives, why buy it? For what game??? Get a pc for gods sake!

OH........BTW, When Xbox 360 shuts down their service for the games you bought like the old Xbox Live service shutdown, i'll still be enjoying my games on steam.

I'm with you man. I'm sure my current PC is at least as powerful as the next Xbox console. It's just not being utilized because everybody optimizes their games for the current consoles.

I may not get a next gen Xbox UNLESS it gets all that love from Cave, Xseed, Atlus, Konami, etc. that you can't get elsewhere. Japanese games are the only reason to get a console anymore if you have access to a PC.

[Greg2600]

Said it before, I'll say it again. If you eliminate the used marketplace you're simply driving away consumers.

[Griking]

... Who's angry? I'm a PC guy. I've been dealing with Microsoft's shenanigans with other people's technologies and software for years. If they can't buy or copy it then they ignore it or find a way to trash it.

They can't buy or copy this, so what will they do? Ignore it until they have no choice but to adopt it.

Edit:

Nope. Game has been in financial trouble for some time now. They really are in danger of going bankrupt.

i'm not disputing some of the articles are much as the grammar and editing errors.

[Griking]

I hate the PC gaming experience. I'm not going to screw around with graphics settings to find a sweet spot.

So are you saying that if your console had a setting in it where you can crank up the graphics in your games to make them look better you wouldn't use it? That's essentially what a PC game is. Most PC games will auto detect your hardware when you install it use the best settings that your hardware can handle but of course you can always go in and manually make changes. Options are good aren't they?

[Gamereviewgod]

So are you saying that if your console had a setting in it where you can crank up the graphics in your games to make them look better you wouldn't use it? That's essentially what a PC game is. Most PC games will auto detect your hardware when you install it use the best settings that your hardware can handle but of course you can always go in and manually make changes. Options are good aren't they?

The difference with PC gaming is the wealth of options. It becomes whether you want to turn A, B, and C on or D, E, or F, or any combination therein. A console is in stone, limitations are known. Short of something simple, say the N64 expansion pack, there is little to worry about. I know that I'm getting what was intended for that hardware. With the PC, I can never be sure because of infinite configs and specs that need accounted for.

[Griking]

The difference with PC gaming is the wealth of options. It becomes whether you want to turn A, B, and C on or D, E, or F, or any combination therein. A console is in stone, limitations are known. Short of something simple, say the N64 expansion pack, there is little to worry about. I know that I'm getting what was intended for that hardware. With the PC, I can never be sure because of infinite configs and specs that need accounted for.

Again, options are just that, options. You're free to leave the game at the default settings that are set when you first install a game. PC game installation has come a long way since the 90s.

[Graham Mitchell]

The difference with PC gaming is the wealth of options. It becomes whether you want to turn A, B, and C on or D, E, or F, or any combination therein. A console is in stone, limitations are known. Short of something simple, say the N64 expansion pack, there is little to worry about. I know that I'm getting what was intended for that hardware. With the PC, I can never be sure because of infinite configs and specs that need accounted for.

Even at lower settings, most pc games run better than their console counterparts (except la noire, which is locked at 30 fps for some reason.)

The only thing that really sucks about pc games is stupid 4$&@(//?! Drm. I bought a new copy of Alice: madness returns last might that won't boot because it says my product activation code was already used(?!). I emailed ea about it yesterday and they still haven't gotten back to me. Horseshit. I can't even play a game I bought fair and square.


---
I am here: http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=33.434865,-111.997708

[The 1 2 P]

I could see it being done if done right (like steam) if this means cheaper games

Thats just it though, I doubt they will be cheaper. They should be but the savings rarely get passed on to the consumers. And like most other people, I will NEVER pay $60 for a download only game that I'm essencially renting from the publisher that I can never sell or trade in for something else when I get tired of it. I don't mind the current set up for XBLA games because they are cheap(usually only $2-7) and download rather quickly. But a $60 price tag on a download only game that may take up to 7 hours to download? I will never support any console that does that.

[Kitsune Sniper]

Even at lower settings, most pc games run better than their console counterparts (except la noire, which is locked at 30 fps for some reason.)

The only thing that really sucks about pc games is stupid 4$&@(//?! Drm. I bought a new copy of Alice: madness returns last might that won't boot because it says my product activation code was already used(?!). I emailed ea about it yesterday and they still haven't gotten back to me. Horseshit. I can't even play a game I bought fair and square.

EA's support is... really special. I suggest that if you have the purchase receipt you return it to exchange it or get a refund. :(

[Leo_A]

While everyone is buying this "mini pc", i'll be enjoying my current pc that plays more than 75% of current gen Xbox 360 games and i'm sure it will also support 75% of next gens games in full HD and better graphics.

Why anyone will buy into Microsoft next gen is beyond me, almost all the games released are also on pc. Microsoft has shit for exclusives, why buy it? For what game??? Get a pc for gods sake!

OH........BTW, When Xbox 360 shuts down their service for the games you bought like the old Xbox Live service shutdown, i'll still be enjoying my games on steam.

I suspect the percentage of Xbox 360 games also present and available on the PC doesn't approach 75%. Many big hitters never make it out on the PC and few of the smaller titles that are available in abundance on the 360, such as Raiden Fighters Aces, ever make it out on the PC. I think even quite a few XBLA releases aren't available on the PC, although I suspect at least 50% are.

When Steam shuts down (And it will someday), gone instantly will be all your games. When Xbox Live shuts down, I'll still be able to fully enjoy the vast majority of my retail games. And thanks to their DRM, I'll be able to still enjoy my downloadable games past the conclusion of Xbox Live support. And if I do a few license transfers to a few systems in the months leading up to a shut down, I'll be able to have my digital games on multiple consoles for a backup (Take my current system offline permanently so the licenses won't be disassociated from it by logging onto XBL after doing a license transfer, do a license transfer to a new console and redownload my content to it, and rinse and repeat in three months to another console).


Flash media hasn't hit that point where it's economical to compete with BD-ROM capacity. Judging by the file sizes reported by PSN, a PlayStation Vita card is like a 2Gb SD card. Those retail for under $10. At the time of the PS3 launch, a single BD-R was about $15-25. The price of solid-state media that can compete with 25-50Gb optical disc is as much or more than current AAA game MSRP.

If Microsoft is going to produce a proprietary solid-state format, I would expect them to use a 16Gb base spec. That's about $20 per unit to produce. It's almost double what they have with DVD9, but still less than BD-ROM. This could work, because not a lot of games actually use the extended capacity of BD-ROM. Even in the case of the few that do, are they better for it? Some JRPGs on 360 used multiple DVDs, but that space is mostly cutscene banter. Metal Gear Solid 4 is the only example I know of that used a dual-layer BD-ROM and had a somewhat legitimate reason for it.


A Blu-Ray disc cost pennies to manufacture. Under 1% of the cost of a $60 Blu-Ray release is the cost of the physical disc.

Flash memory that cost many times per gig to manufacture in comparison will never catch on. They're not going to go from paying pennies per game to having 1/3 of the MSRP of a game being due to the cost of the media.


Considering 16GB SD cards cost less than $20, I doubt that will be the case. Not saying they'll use SD cards, just that in bulk, memory of that size can be much cheaper to product.

And no one has considered why they'll use SD-like media? It's writeable. They can lock it to hardware or accounts.

And a 50 gig Blu-Ray cost well under a dollar to manufacture. SD media doesn't approach the cost of optical media. Particularly if you compare it by cost per gig, it isn't even remotely competitive. Flash media is only viable on handhelds since games sizes are much smaller (Vita cards are 2 and 4 gigs, for instance), durability is more important, battery left is more important, and minimizing load times and the size of the system is more important.

And too many gamers are offline for them to tie games to accounts. And permanently tying games to a specific system is a recipie for a disaster. People aren't going to stand for their software library being even temporarily bricked when they have a console failure.

As I see it, if they want to eliminate anyone being able to play any disc they come across, they only have a few options. They can't require a persistent internet connection with each game having a unique ID that gets associated with a specific online user account since there are still too many offline gamers around, many with no option of getting a broadband connection. And they can't tie disc to a specific console due to the backlash in today's era of unreliable systems, people not being able to take their games elsewhere with them, etc. And they can't have the disc be ripped the first time you play it to your HD and then be modified to be unreadable. The backlash from consumers, environmental groups, and such would be great and it eliminates most of the benefits of physical media in the first place.

One way is for each Xbox 720 to come with a memory card where your profile resides and your licenses are applied. Each disc has a single license and a writable portion on it. The disc is associated with your account the first time you play it, with the license residing on a reliable memory card that can be taken from system to system as you wish, online or offline, with the disc modified so it won't ever provide another license. Could even replace a disc with another used disc from a source like Ebay, if needed, since every disc for a particular title would be identical unlike the alternatives.



Whether solid-state is the right move will depend on how industry practices are changing. Right now, it's expensive to produce AAA games that fill a DVD9. I'm guessing that BD-ROM's extra capacity is wasted when a title has to be on both platforms. More space equals more potential content, which requires higher budgets. I want to see the industry go the other way, producing a larger variety of smaller titles with smaller budgets and lower MSRP, so in that case solid-state would absolutely be the way to go. As it is, however, I think the studios would prefer higher capacity, larger projects, and less variety.

Multiple disc Xbox 360 releases have been increasing with regularity and they recently changed standards with their disc, in part, to open up more space on them for developers to utilize. Even Nintendo is going with a higher capacity medium since DVD9 has inadequate space these days. I don't see anyway that the DVD format (Or far more expensive alternatives with a similar amount of space) could accomodate things like lossless audio, 1080p native graphics, etc. Higher capacity is a mandatory requirement for next generation game consoles and I have no doubt Microsoft will be following in Sony's footsteps this generation and Nintendo with its upcoming console. If Microsoft's media, whatever it is, isn't 25 gigs or more, I'd be shocked. And there is no way that 25 gig SSD's, flash memory, and such are anywhere close to being price competitive with optical media.



I do not believe that a console built around a digital distribution model would work right now. Rural areas are still struggling to get broadband.

Well over 20% of PS3's and 360's are still offline in this country from the last stats I saw. Even giving up over a fifth of your customers, broadband infrastructure is no where close to being able to support the other 80% moving to digital distribution. Imagine what the release of a Halo game and such would do with everyone going off and downloading it en masse around the same time. ISP's already are putting in restrictive caps just because of the increase in streaming video content that usually isn't even in HD.

I'm not even sure if it will ever be cost effective for a company like Microsoft to have the server capacity itself to meet such demand when the vast majority of it will be underutilized on average outside of a few game launches a year and periods like Christmas. That's an expensive asset and it would typically be operating no where close to peak capacity.

[Buyatari]

So are we back to cartridge systems now?

[PapaStu]

So are we back to cartridge systems now?


Back? We never left them.

/me looks at his DS and 3DS games.

[markusman64ds]

So are we back to cartridge systems now?

It would be nice. Cartridges are much smaller now and can hold more. They are also more reliable than discs.

[NayusDante]

So are we back to cartridge systems now?

Well, technically they're cards. The difference is that cards are just storage, while a cart can have additional electronics.

Then again, those wifi SD cards sort of blur the line, so I could be wrong.

[duffmanth]

Said it before, I'll say it again. If you eliminate the used marketplace you're simply driving away consumers.


I totally agree. MS, EA and others are playing with fire if they're gonna continue on the routes of digital distribution and online passes. Trying to kill off the used market and the retail market as a whole are going to possibly create a huge consumer backlash?

[Greg2600]

Well, while I still don't like the idea of download-only games, I see no reason they couldn't "lease" you games like they do cars. You buy it, and after X amount of time, you can trade it back in for value. After X amount of time, buyers could buy the game for a discounted amount. I don't like it, but it would be the fair replacement. The problem is the publishers may not want this at all, and force full retail prices forever.

As for cartridges, they can hold more, yes, but they also cost a lot more to manufacture vs. discs. What other advantage is there for the publishers?

[Kitsune Sniper]

I suspect the percentage of Xbox 360 games also present and available on the PC doesn't approach 75%. Many big hitters never make it out on the PC and few of the smaller titles that are available in abundance on the 360, such as Raiden Fighters Aces, ever make it out on the PC. I think even quite a few XBLA releases aren't available on the PC, although I suspect at least 50% are.

When Steam shuts down (And it will someday), gone instantly will be all your games. When Xbox Live shuts down, I'll still be able to fully enjoy the vast majority of my retail games. And thanks to their DRM, I'll be able to still enjoy my downloadable games past the conclusion of Xbox Live support. And if I do a few license transfers to a few systems in the months leading up to a shut down, I'll be able to have my digital games on multiple consoles for a backup (Take my current system offline permanently so the licenses won't be disassociated from it by logging onto XBL after doing a license transfer, do a license transfer to a new console and redownload my content to it, and rinse and repeat in three months to another console).

1: You're vastly overestimating the amount of XBLA games that are available on PC. I'd say that the amount PC players get is closer to 25%. Thanks to stuff like Cthulhu Saves The World / Breath of Death VII becoming insanely popular, a lot of indie games are being ported to PC, but it's still not near 50%. Also a lot more games were available on PC during the original Xbox era. When the 360 came, many devs just stuck to the 360 and ignored the PC. :(

2: Allow me to BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

Ha.

Yeah, because we don't have to deal with all that license transfer bullshit. Step 1, go to google. Step 2, download crack. Step 3, we're done. Yay!


Well, while I still don't like the idea of download-only games, I see no reason they couldn't "lease" you games like they do cars. You buy it, and after X amount of time, you can trade it back in for value. After X amount of time, buyers could buy the game for a discounted amount. I don't like it, but it would be the fair replacement. The problem is the publishers may not want this at all, and force full retail prices forever.

As for cartridges, they can hold more, yes, but they also cost a lot more to manufacture vs. discs. What other advantage is there for the publishers?

A game download store already does this: Green Man Gaming. Unfortunately you have to use their client, which has lots and lots of copy protection stuff... but most games can be traded back for a few bucks.

[Kitsune Sniper]

*dupe post, sorry!*

[Edmond Dantes]

Again, options are just that, options. You're free to leave the game at the default settings that are set when you first install a game. PC game installation has come a long way since the 90s.

And get to deal with issues where you have glitches because the game supports a different video card than the one you have even though yours is still high-end.

PC gaming is good, but dude is right in that there are inherent flaws in it and most of them come from the "game is designed to support every possible build" thing. Games that are exclusive to one system are built with that system in mind and thus tend to be far more reliable.

[Griking]

When Steam shuts down (And it will someday), gone instantly will be all your games.

Steam has said that if it ever closed down it would first release a patch removing the DRM from all of their games.

[Berserker]

Steam has given some unofficial assurance that they would unlock the games if the end were nigh, but it wouldn't matter much if they didn't - it'd be cracked in pretty short order. With a console on the other hand you're dealing with proprietary hardware, which means that whenever they stop making them you're basically gaming on borrowed time unless someone decides to (or is even able to) write an emulator of it.

It was this realization that brought me back to PC gaming. I liked my 360, and when it red-ringed on me a few years ago I didn't feel cheated or that I got less than my money's worth. But I decided that in the long-term it made more sense to me to take proprietary hardware out of the equation. Games I love playing are worth infinitely more than whatever I happen to pay for them, and that's exactly how much mileage I want to get out of them.

[Leo_A]

1: You're vastly overestimating the amount of XBLA games that are available on PC. I'd say that the amount PC players get is closer to 25%.

While I've stuck mostly with rereleases/remakes of older software on XBLA, it was my impression many of the original efforts on XBLA that have came to dominate the service in recent years have been multiplatform and often see release on the PC, mobile devices, etc. Toy Soldiers, for instance, is slated for a PC release after doing a quick check on the first original game that popped into my mind. I bet if it's not at least 50% that I'm not terribly far off and I bet the percentage is higher than it is for retail releases.

As for indie games, I haven't explored that area and wasn't talking about it.


2: Allow me to BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

Ha.

Yeah, because we don't have to deal with all that license transfer bullshit. Step 1, go to google. Step 2, download crack. Step 3, we're done. Yay!

So for the games I've purchased and downloaded on my Steam account, all it takes is a few seconds to download something to unlock all of those to operate independently from Steam? That's new to me.

When Xbox Live dies, my digital games will still work as long as the system is licensed for them and I won't have to jump through any hoops whatsoever with my retail games on any 360 I use. And as long as I'm willing to buy a few consoles for spares (Already own two 360's), I'll be able to easily back up my digital content on multiple consoles with no need of things like doing research to find a pirated copy of the game I used to own on Steam, risk a virus on what is quite possibly a futile task to find a crack for it if it wasn't something popular (If the DRM can even be circumvented in the first place), and then quite likely struggle just to get it working on a future operating system.

On the 360 if I want my content working on another console after I've ceased buying downloads in a few years for it, I spend 10 seconds at XboxLive.com to initiate the license transfer process and then just download the content to the 360. It's not rocket science and certainly is much more convenient than having to delve into the world of PC piracy to try to find and get a game you used to have on Steam and then circumvent DRM to get it working once that service dies someday.

I like Steam and have actually mostly switched to it for PC gaming (I'm not much of a classic gamer in the PC world and rarely revisit older software, so the convenience of it all has won me over and I'm not too concerned with the knowledge that it will all go poof someday). But to suggest that there is some superiority with Steam over digital distribution on the Xbox 360 when both services end someday is pure fiction. Your purchases on Steam will cease to be operable the minute that switch is flipped where as on the 360, your games will still work until that console sales (and if you're willing to buy a few spare consoles, you can even have some spare systems will all your digital content on them ready to go if you wish in the event of a hardware failure).

No contest which one is superior when it comes to the cessation of support and being able to keep playing your purchases past that date.

[j_factor]

I'm less concerned about my ability to continue playing games I've purchased and more concerned about my ability to acquire games some years after their initial release. I'm always discovering gems from years ago.

[Kitsune Sniper]

While I've stuck mostly with rereleases/remakes of older software on XBLA, it was my impression many of the original efforts on XBLA that have came to dominate the service in recent years have been multiplatform and often see release on the PC, mobile devices, etc. Toy Soldiers, for instance, is slated for a PC release after doing a quick check on the first original game that popped into my mind. I bet if it's not at least 50% that I'm not terribly far off and I bet the percentage is higher than it is for retail releases.I still think you're wrong, but, I really wish you were right on this one. I mean, a lot of games on XBLA / PSN are great and all - but they never, ever see a PC version. Usually this is blamed on piracy, but really, it's because the devs are lazy or the publishers don't want to spend the money on porting and testing stuff.


So for the games I've purchased and downloaded on my Steam account, all it takes is a few seconds to download something to unlock all of those to operate independently from Steam? That's new to me.Some of the games on Steam are DRM free. This includes all games that run on DOSBox (the iD games, X-Com, etc.) or ScummVM (Broken Sword 1-3.) You download them, copy the files elsewhere, and you can run them just fine. I usually tell people to buy the Doom / Quake games on Steam if they want to get cheap copies of the games to be used on DOSBox or game source ports. You paid for the games so you're legally allowed. :P

There's very few games out there that won't work because of third-party DRM, but we legal players have to deal with that shit anyway, so...


When Xbox Live dies, my digital games will still work as long as the system is licensed for them and I won't have to jump through any hoops whatsoever with my retail games on any 360 I use. And as long as I'm willing to buy a few consoles for spares (Already own two 360's), I'll be able to easily back up my digital content on multiple consoles with no need of things like doing research to find a pirated copy of the game I used to own on Steam, risk a virus on what is quite possibly a futile task to find a crack for it if it wasn't something popular (If the DRM can even be circumvented in the first place), and then quite likely struggle just to get it working on a future operating system.

On the 360 if I want my content working on another console after I've ceased buying downloads in a few years for it, I spend 10 seconds at XboxLive.com to initiate the license transfer process and then just download the content to the 360. It's not rocket science and certainly is much more convenient than having to delve into the world of PC piracy to try to find and get a game you used to have on Steam and then circumvent DRM to get it working once that service dies someday.

I like Steam and have actually mostly switched to it for PC gaming (I'm not much of a classic gamer in the PC world and rarely revisit older software, so the convenience of it all has won me over and I'm not too concerned with the knowledge that it will all go poof someday). But to suggest that there is some superiority with Steam over digital distribution on the Xbox 360 when both services end someday is pure fiction. Your purchases on Steam will cease to be operable the minute that switch is flipped where as on the 360, your games will still work until that console sales (and if you're willing to buy a few spare consoles, you can even have some spare systems will all your digital content on them ready to go if you wish in the event of a hardware failure).

No contest which one is superior when it comes to the cessation of support and being able to keep playing your purchases past that date.And what happens when you can't legally authorize your game purchases on a new 360 anymore? Welp, you're boned. At least with Steam there's a very good chance the game will continue to work on newer hardware. Or older hardware, since you can just build a custom PC for it. And sometimes the crackers end up fixing games for later OSes anyway. :P

I wasn't trying to say Steam is better than XBLA or consoles in general. I apologize if it sounded like I was.

[TonyTheTiger]

The bickering over which DRMed format is better in the long term is silly. It's like arguing over six of one or half dozen of the other. The end result will be the same: if something stops working then it'll be fixed by dedicated hobbyists. So long as the data exists in 1s and 0s it's not going anywhere. If anything, it's arguably better in the long term because once it's cracked it'll work forever and be forever distributable so long as there is hardware able to run it, unlike the many things that can render physical media unusable.

[The 1 2 P]

Now it's official (http://www.gameinformer.com/b/news/archive/2012/03/15/microsoft-no-new-xbox-at-e3.aspx) that we won't hear anything new about the next Xbox at E3 or any time soon. Let the rumors continue.