Recent NES black box sales

[Panzerfuzion]

Edit: Fuck it, I couldn't be bothered at this point.

Yes my child let the anger flow through your veins like a rouge virus looks to spread it's satanic seamen. Escape from the wonderland that is ignorance and let the truth capture your imagination. Your at the edge of darkness and it doesn't have to be that way, you can join the force's of morality and stop the confidential rampage you have set forth onto yourself and those who surround you. You have the power of influence, so please choose to create a new dawn of an era. One which collectors look out for each other before themselves, where there is no concern over the latest bathroom redesigns because a properly placed toothbrush holder does not make the man. Please no more high BIN's while fielding for the highest offer or backdooring people on ebay because you are concerned over your latest home remodel. You were once one of us and along the way something happen, you lost your innocence and the battlefield over your own morality was to much for your soul to bare. Please we are here for you, change your ways no more evil collecting deeds, come to the light once again. Getting the highest price for a sealed Flintstones 2 will not fill you with joy, the true joy comes from the selfless act of a hometown discount or allowing yourself to help your fellow collector without the concern over the latest piece of Italian marble. Remember my son if it wasn't for us there would be no one to sell to in the first place. Take care my son and may you have continued success through your home remodeling journey.

[wiggyx]

Yes my child let the anger flow through your veins like a rouge virus looks to spread it's satanic seamen. Escape from the wonderland that is ignorance and let the truth capture your imagination. Your at the edge of darkness and it doesn't have to be that way, you can join the force's of morality and stop the confidential rampage you have set forth onto yourself and those who surround you. You have the power of influence, so please choose to create a new dawn of an era. One which collectors look out for each other before themselves, where there is no concern over the latest bathroom redesigns because a properly placed toothbrush holder does not make the man. Please no more high BIN's while fielding for the highest offer or backdooring people on ebay because you are concerned over your latest home remodel. You were once one of us and along the way something happen, you lost your innocence and the battlefield over your own morality was to much for your soul to bare. Please we are here for you, change your ways no more evil collecting deeds, come to the light once again. Getting the highest price for a sealed Flintstones 2 will not fill you with joy, the true joy comes from the selfless act of a hometown discount or allowing yourself to help your fellow collector without the concern over the latest piece of Italian marble. Remember my son if it wasn't for us there would be no one to sell to in the first place. Take care my son and may you have continued success through your home remodeling journey.

"Are you sure you want to add Panzerfuzion to your ignore list?"

Yes.

[Panzerfuzion]

"Are you sure you want to add Panzerfuzion to your ignore list?"

Yes.

The anger you have for me is extremely sad, I'm only here to help you. Please understand I am in no way upset over your personal life choice of homosexuality. Please don't project your fears onto others, jealousy and rage is not healthy. Don't allow your emotions to internalize, when i see your lines of code put forth onto the screen I know in my heart there are benevolent undertones. You have good in you, these extremely short and uneducated responses does not shine a light on your intellect in a positive manner. Please from now on sit down, drink a nice warm cup of folgers coffee™ and think deeply about your feelings before choosing to press that enter button. I hope this helps, good day friend.

[BeaglePuss]

Yes my child let the anger flow through your veins like a rouge virus looks to spread it's satanic seamen. Escape from the wonderland that is ignorance and let the truth capture your imagination. Your at the edge of darkness and it doesn't have to be that way, you can join the force's of morality and stop the confidential rampage you have set forth onto yourself and those who surround you. You have the power of influence, so please choose to create a new dawn of an era. One which collectors look out for each other before themselves, where there is no concern over the latest bathroom redesigns because a properly placed toothbrush holder does not make the man. Please no more high BIN's while fielding for the highest offer or backdooring people on ebay because you are concerned over your latest home remodel. You were once one of us and along the way something happen, you lost your innocence and the battlefield over your own morality was to much for your soul to bare. Please we are here for you, change your ways no more evil collecting deeds, come to the light once again. Getting the highest price for a sealed Flintstones 2 will not fill you with joy, the true joy comes from the selfless act of a hometown discount or allowing yourself to help your fellow collector without the concern over the latest piece of Italian marble. Remember my son if it wasn't for us there would be no one to sell to in the first place. Take care my son and may you have continued success through your home remodeling journey.

To be clear, I've never backdoored anything, just some side deals from time to time. It may be a matter of semantics, but the term "backdoor" is reserved for those that contact a seller after an item has been sold in hopes of screwing the original buyer. A side-deal on the other hand takes place during an auction and is an agreement between the seller and an eBay member hoping to purchase a gamer for a lower ending price. The seller agrees to end the auction early in order to avoid eBay final value fees.

While you (and others) might feel that they're both equally unethical, I personally don't.

When involved in a hobby like this one, you have to prioritize. If someone is willing to purchase a video game from me for five figures, I'm going to take them up on it every time. My new bathroom is like a 90+ Gold Level thanks to video game flipping.

[ApolloBoy]

The anger you have for me is extremely sad, I'm only here to help you. Please understand I am in no way upset over your personal life choice of homosexuality. Please don't project your fears onto others, jealousy and rage is not healthy. Don't allow your emotions to internalize, when i see your lines of code put forth onto the screen I know in my heart there are benevolent undertones. You have good in you, these extremely short and uneducated responses does not shine a light on your intellect in a positive manner. Please from now on sit down, drink a nice warm cup of folgers coffee™ and think deeply about your feelings before choosing to press that enter button. I hope this helps, good day friend.
Is that you RegalSin?

[Griking]

"Are you sure you want to add Panzerfuzion to your ignore list?"

Yes.

I'm more curious which bored regular he's an alter ego of.

[wiggyx]

Well, when you guys figure it out, let me know. I'll block him as well.

[treismac]

Wow. Just wow.

As I've been bogged down with work and school as of late, I've regrettably missed out on all of this enlightened, new age trolling mysticism from Panzerfuzion. I just have to say, "bravo, sir, bravo." Surely you are the reincarnation of some Bodhisattva who has descended into the retro gaming forums to bring moksha to each and every one of us.

Let's see a best of from your hit list of quotes, shall we?


I want you to take command over your aura, let your synapse flow with positive energy. D


Take care my friend and may i hope your destination is as rewarding as the journey.

Oh, oh!!! I love this ENTIRE post!!


I'm extremely proud that you've followed your dreams and that you have not let the boundaries of your own insecurities prevent how you have lived your life. Once you realize the myth of forever is only an illusion and that being saddled with the burden of your own mortality only shapes what you allow it to. I hope you understand my child that we are all one in the same, we were all created from a single piece of matter and that over the evolution of time we evolved into the beings we have become. You and I will always have stardust in us never forget, take care my friend.


You, Panzerfuzion, have made my day. Thank you from all of the cosmos that is within and without me to all of the cosmos that is within and without you! :hail:

[Panzerfuzion]

Wow. Just wow.

As I've been bogged down with work and school as of late, I've regrettably missed out on all of this enlightened, new age trolling mysticism from Panzerfuzion. I just have to say, "bravo, sir, bravo." Surely you are the reincarnation of some Bodhisattva who has descended into the retro gaming forums to bring moksha to each and every one of us.

Let's see a best of from your hit list of quotes, shall we?





Oh, oh!!! I love this ENTIRE post!!




You, Panzerfuzion, have made my day. Thank you from all of the cosmos that is within and without me to all of the cosmos that is within and without you! :hail:

I thank you from every sector of my being. Your words have engulfed me with a collection of virtual sunshine rays unlike I have ever seen. I'm at a loss for words to express my love and gratification for what you have conveyed to me. I will never forget this moment in time, your words will always be kept in the chronicles of my life diary. Take care my friend.

[Kevincal]

I adore making myself out to be an incredibly brilliant intellectual with my amazing assortment of vocabulary words and random but obscure compliments to my fellow homo sapiens, I desire to appear as an alien on the internets as humans are just too low to have a normal unegomaniacal conversation. We are all like snowflakes in the end,

BUT REALLY THIS AINT WWW.BATSHITINSANE.COM lol this is video games we are talking not some science fiction mumbo jumbo vocabulary show off time! :D

maybe im just a hater. :P sprinkly me with stardust please, ya.

[Buyatari]

I'm more curious which bored regular he's an alter ego of.

This is no bored regular. It is random word generator machine with a broken reset key that has somehow stumbled upon this website.

[treismac]

...this is video games we are talking not some science fiction mumbo jumbo vocabulary show off time!

Dude, the cosmic references are part of his faux-Eastern religion wisdom motif. Panzerfuzion ain't mimicking the results of Star Wars and Star Trek being thrown into a blender with a thesaurus, I promise you.

Actually, Star Wars borrowed heavily from Daoism, so it might be harder to differentiate the sci-fi and Eastern religion than I originally thought. :-/

[wiggyx]

BUT REALLY THIS AINT WWW.BATSHITINSANE.COM lol this is video games we are talking not some science fiction mumbo jumbo vocabulary show off time! :D

maybe im just a hater. :P sprinkly me with stardust please, ya.

Panzer's punctuation, spelling, and syntax are all pretty busted. Plus, he's really stretching to fit some of those words into his posts. He sounds like a 1st semester English major at a community college. I'm guessing that he's read about 25 pages of Faulkner, didn't understand a lick of it, and thinks that tossing a whole mess of adjectives and poorly constructed similes & metaphors into his posts will impress.

He's mildly amusing, but not enough to hold my interest.

[Ryaan1234]

Panzer's punctuation, spelling, and syntax are all pretty busted. Plus, he's really stretching to fit some of those words into his posts. He sounds like a 1st semester English major at a community college. I'm guessing that he's read about 25 pages of Faulkner, didn't understand a lick of it, and thinks that tossing a whole mess of adjectives and poorly constructed similes & metaphors into his posts will impress.

He's mildly amusing, but not enough to hold my interest.
Well, if he can get through 25 pages of Faulkner without falling asleep that's a pretty good accomplishment.

But you do have a point; it seems he's taken some inspiration from Faulkner, who was known for saying so little in so many words, most notably the time he wrote a 1,288 word long sentence in Absalom, Absalom!

[wiggyx]

You hit the nail on the head with that one. So many words, so little meat to chew.

[skaar]

You hit the nail on the head with that one. So many words, so little meat to chew.

Sometimes the sauce is the best part of the meal.

At least, that's what your mom says.

[Jorpho]

Oh, my! This is stuff that's worth sticking around for. (I am however saddened that there appears to be no site at www.batshitinsane.com . Not even a redirect. Dang shame, that.)


I would honestly enjoy having any of those black box games sealed. I would. I just couldn't justify spending over $20 for them. If they're sealed, they're decorations, and I don't pay stupid money for decorations.I can't see why you'd pay $20 for decorations when you could manufacture something just as functional for half that price, at most.

[wiggyx]

Sometimes the sauce is the best part of the meal.

At least, that's what your mom says.

Flawless. There's no comeback on the planet that could top that witty tidbit. Good job!

[Buyatari]

Pinball is of the most common black games to find sealed. So it might be hard to say that the huge black box sales are not affecting other sealed black box games.

April 1st a 85+ VGA graded copy of Pinball sold for $301.50
http://www.ebay.com/itm/170809509355

Yesterday an ungraded copy of Pinball sold for $1,025.00
http://www.ebay.com/itm/170818687846

[skaar]

I'm really surprised this is still going.

[Buyatari]

I'm really surprised this is still going.

This thread or high selling sealed black box games? lol

Check out this Spanish Wild Gunman that sold for $15k
http://www.ebay.com/itm/220998175661

[Kevincal]

i checked out ebay completed listings for black box games yesterday, just have to SMH... just totally idiotic the prices. damnit i need to find me some sealed black box games lmao.

[skaar]

Good thing prices aren't being affected.

[Buyatari]

Good thing prices aren't being affected.

Well most loose black box games aren't worth much at all.

[tom]

I don't think they really sell

[Buyatari]

I don't think they really sell

They do. Some of the sellers have reported about it on other forums and of course you can see feedback is being left by both sides.

[portnoyd]

So here are people like Braveheart69 (complete black box hoarding and prices), Mario's Right Nut (complete copies of SE hoarding) and gwyidion (homebrew prices and hoarding) with large bank accounts and opportunity to take hold of and so they did. And they are still around and not going anywhere. Also, this blackbox guy is proof more are on the way.

I'm quoting this because everyone passed it off, especially buyatari as an 'overly paranoid' view but no one countered it. So here we go:

Braveheart69 is shilling like crazy any black box auction to boost prices to make what he has even more valuable.

http://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewBidItems&all=1&_rdc=1&userid=braveheart69&&rows=50&completed=1&sort=3&guest=1

Note the feedback: 3283 (as of 4/15). Now look at this infamous DK Jr Math lot auction:

http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewBids&_trksid=p4340.l2565&rt=nc&item=290690633965

Do you see a familiar number? e***r (3283)? Also look at the bids. He made half of them.

This is clearly braveheart69, someone who owns a ridiculously mint copy of DK Jr Math from TheFrisbee. He's either trying to hoard these, boost prices or both.

How is my assertion overly paranoid again? And don't say you can't counter it - I mean, "fuck It, (you) can't be bothered at this point" if you're going to reply at all.

[peeingas]

They were the very original box and label style that Nintendo was using for their first party games. many of them were reissued later on with different labels. That's it.

Which ones were reissued with different labels?

[BeaglePuss]

Black box games still sell for less than $20 loose regardless of what Eric has bid on/won. That's pretty much all I can say. Instead of repeating myself, I went the "fuck it" route.

Edit to add: Mario's Right Nut only has a single CIB SE at this point, not that it has anything to do with sealed Black Box tittles, but since you were looking for a counter I might as well add it.

[Buyatari]

I'm quoting this because everyone passed it off, especially buyatari as an 'overly paranoid' view but no one countered it. So here we go:

Braveheart69 is shilling like crazy any black box auction to boost prices to make what he has even more valuable.

http://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewBidItems&all=1&_rdc=1&userid=braveheart69&&rows=50&completed=1&sort=3&guest=1

Note the feedback: 3283 (as of 4/15). Now look at this infamous DK Jr Math lot auction:

http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewBids&_trksid=p4340.l2565&rt=nc&item=290690633965

Do you see a familiar number? e***r (3283)? Also look at the bids. He made half of them.

This is clearly braveheart69, someone who owns a ridiculously mint copy of DK Jr Math from TheFrisbee. He's either trying to hoard these, boost prices or both.

How is my assertion overly paranoid again? And don't say you can't counter it - I mean, "fuck It, (you) can't be bothered at this point" if you're going to reply at all.

So what, this still doesn't affect loose carts.

I still stand by what I said. Most loose carts worth $30-20 and under five years ago are still worth $30-20 and under. A few may have become pricey but for the most part only the games worth more than $50 five years ago are worth more than $50 now. Some have fallen in price.

I don't understand how a few titles in a certain condition selling for big bucks changes anything if you just want to collect videogames for fun. I would bet you that there are still thousands of games worth under $20 that you still do not own if you look across all platforms and all regions.

[portnoyd]

So what, this still doesn't affect loose carts.

I still stand by what I said. Most loose carts worth $30-20 and under five years ago are still worth $30-20 and under. A few may have become pricey but for the most part only the games worth more than $50 five years ago are worth more than $50 now. Some have fallen in price.

I don't understand how a few titles in a certain condition selling for big bucks changes anything if you just want to collect videogames for fun. I would bet you that there are still thousands of games worth under $20 that you still do not own if you look across all platforms and all regions.

Nice deflection. You are proving to be quite the expert at dismissing people's claims.

How is it overly paranoid when I cite the evidence above?

[Buyatari]

Nice deflection.

You can count on this in just about any hobby. Comic,cards,coins,stamp whatever. The rare most desired expensive items in top condition will continue to go up and up and will continue to go up so long as there are people out there collecting them. Some people who recognize this may take advantage but without rarity and demand it wouldn't be possible. Having the forsight to take advantage of such a situation doesn't mean you created it single handedly. Without new buyers willing to shell out more and more it just wouldn't happen no matter how many you tried to put away.

Still none of this should matter if you just want to collect games and enjoy collecting videogames cheaply. There is plenty out there that is cheap and that will stay cheap for a long long time.

[BeaglePuss]

Evidence that Braveheart bid on a black box title he already owns? What does that have to do with the price of loose black box games (over even sealed black box games that the thread was originally about)?

[jonebone]

Yeah hoarding is basically a big middle finger to the collecting community, and I find it disgraceful that a "mod" does that, but that's another argument. It's one thing to buy another for an upgrade, or to buy another for tradebait, but at some point it becomes quite excessive. But quite frankly, it's not my business what anyone does with their money (and I don't really care), I just hate to see such a figurehead be all about the money.

However, I don't think that CIB or sealed hoarding has too much of an effect on loose prices. What it does prove, is your point about the "hobby" being more like a business these days. It's sad but true, and it will never revert back to how it was. I can't say that I really remember those days though, as I started in 2008 and things were still pretty "business-like" at the time. Values were just drastically cheaper.

[Buyatari]

Yeah hoarding is basically a big middle finger to the collecting community, and I find it disgraceful that a "mod" does that, but that's another argument. It's one thing to buy another for an upgrade, or to buy another for tradebait, but at some point it becomes quite excessive. But quite frankly, it's not my business what anyone does with their money (and I don't really care), I just hate to see such a figurehead be all about the money.

However, I don't think that CIB or sealed hoarding has too much of an effect on loose prices. What it does prove, is your point about the "hobby" being more like a business these days. It's sad but true, and it will never revert back to how it was. I can't say that I really remember those days though, as I started in 2008 and things were still pretty "business-like" at the time. Values were just drastically cheaper.

I've been collecting since the 90's and it is always been about the money.

When DreamTr tracked down every NWC cartridge he could find.
When the race was on to track down every former (Atari,Coleco,Vectrex,etc) company employee before the next guy.
When Atari guys fought for prototypes just so they could be the one to re-release them in qty of 250 at $50 each.
It was always about the money.

Collectors pick which systems to collect not based on what they enjoy or had as a kid but what everyone else is collecting. What is hot and what is not. The N64 is the best example of this. The N64 was the worst of the generation but it is Nintendo and has Mario and Zelda and many guys who never touched the system when it was available collect or resell for it today. I know a long time local collector who has never played a single game of Mario on any system. He played Doom and then Halo and COD but for right now at least Nintendo is where the money is.

Bragging rights and reselling have always been a big part of this hobby and cash as they say is king. I remember the first time I saw a Atari game rarity list. Instantly in that moment it hit me that videogames were the next big hobby. If you got in early and bought the right stuff you could name your price. Last month I unloaded hundreds of new Atarisoft titles which I horded for 10+ years for $1.50 each to another local just to make room in the house. As you may have guessed not everything I expected to appreciate in value has but somethings have way beyond my expectations. Had I been BuyNintendo instead of BuyAtari I'm sure I'd be able to retire right now.

I like videogames but I can't pay the rent with them nor can I feed my family with them without converting them into cash. When long time collectors find themsleves in a rut they sell off the games they collected. In a way for some it is a part of growing up and setting priorities. It is selfish to keep a game that is now worth 10k when your family could use a new car?

The only difference today is that the money is bigger which happens in time with all hobbies that do not fade away and the transactions are more public. In the past many high dollar sales were private and not made public but now that they have become more obvious I can tell you that they have always been there and that money has been a factor for as long as I have been collecting.

That doesn't mean is has to be the hobby for you. You can just collect what you enjoy and there is plenty out there which is cheap.

[Panzerfuzion]

I've been collecting since the 90's and it is always been about the money.

When DreamTr tracked down every NWC cartridge he could find.
When the race was on to track down every former (Atari,Coleco,Vectrex,etc) company employee before the next guy.
When Atari guys fought for prototypes just so they could be the one to re-release them in qty of 250 at $50 each.
It was always about the money.

Collectors pick which systems to collect not based on what they enjoy or had as a kid but what everyone else is collecting. What is hot and what is not. The N64 is the best example of this. The N64 was the worst of the generation but it is Nintendo and has Mario and Zelda and many guys who never touched the system when it was available collect or resell for it today. I know a long time local collector who has never played a single game of Mario on any system. He played Doom and then Halo and COD but for right now at least Nintendo is where the money is.

Bragging rights and reselling have always been a big part of this hobby and cash as they say is king. I remember the first time I saw a Atari game rarity list. Instantly in that moment it hit me that videogames were the next big hobby. If you got in early and bought the right stuff you could name your price. Last month I unloaded hundreds of new Atarisoft titles which I horded for 10+ years for $1.50 each to another local just to make room in the house. As you may have guessed not everything I expected to appreciate in value has but somethings have way beyond my expectations. Had I been BuyNintendo instead of BuyAtari I'm sure I'd be able to retire right now.

I like videogames but I can't pay the rent with them nor can I feed my family with them without converting them into cash. When long time collectors find themsleves in a rut they sell off the games they collected. In a way for some it is a part of growing up and setting priorities. It is selfish to keep a game that is now worth 10k when your family could use a new car?

The only difference today is that the money is bigger which happens in time with all hobbies that do not fade away and the transactions are more public. In the past many high dollar sales were private and not made public but now that they have become more obvious I can tell you that they have always been there and that money has been a factor for as long as I have been collecting.

That doesn't mean is has to be the hobby for you. You can just collect what you enjoy and there is plenty out there which is cheap.

Replace Atari with Nintendo or Sega and you have the Nolan's...

[Bojay1997]

For you personally it may have always been about the money, but having been a collector since 1989, I can honestly say the whole flipping/reselling thing is a relatively new phenomenon, at least in the scale and scope it's happening today and it's still not where most collectors are operating. For most of the 90s and even into the 2000s, there were a number of good on-line small retailers selling old games at reasonable prices, plenty of Ebay auctions that were actual auctions and plenty of collectors who traded or sold stuff at or below cost whenever they met up at various local gatherings or CGE and other regional conventions. I know I have given away thousands of dollars in duplicate games and consoles over the years to new collectors and I know many other collectors have done the same thing. In short, collecting was always a community first and the whole money thing was completely secondary. Similarly, the vast majority of people collecting prototypes and other rare items in the 90s were not doing it for the money. They did it to preserve the games and to build interesting and unique collections. Heck, if everyone was doing it for the money, there would be no museum at CGE or large holdings of rare Atari items like Curt Vendel's collection.

With the rise of NES collecting and grading, the whole flipper/reseller thing has reached alarming proportions. For me personally, it troubles me that these resellers are contributing nothing to the collecting community, using tips and resources from collectors to profit and essentially sitting on Ebay to grab stuff only to have it graded and re-sell it a month or two later at several times the original price. There is no real work going into the process, it's not like these people are going out and searching swap meets or thrifts or scouring distributor warehouses for the stuff, they are simply snagging games before other non-flipper/reseller collectors can purchase them on Ebay and marking up the prices to absrud levels.

I guess my major trouble with all of this is that there seems to be a lack of outrage against these resellers. I have no problem with people selling their excess or even buying lots and breaking it up, removing what they need for their own collection. I do have an issue with people doing the perpetual Ebay flipping and justifying it by saying it supports their collection. Those resellers hurt other collectors by taking away their opporunity to grow their collections at reasonable prices. That should not be commended or accepted. Similarly, these resellers shouldn't be allowed to have free access to the knowledge and advice of collectors who really do care about the games and want to help other members of the community to grow their collections and not profit financially.

I've collected many things over the years and I am very confident that at some point in the near future, the bubble will burst and the resellers will move on like they always do. Until then, there are plenty of collectors out there who care about the games first and preserving history and who will continue to operate in the spirit of the old days of video game collecting.


I've been collecting since the 90's and it is always been about the money.

When DreamTr tracked down every NWC cartridge he could find.
When the race was on to track down every former (Atari,Coleco,Vectrex,etc) company employee before the next guy.
When Atari guys fought for prototypes just so they could be the one to re-release them in qty of 250 at $50 each.
It was always about the money.

Collectors pick which systems to collect not based on what they enjoy or had as a kid but what everyone else is collecting. What is hot and what is not. The N64 is the best example of this. The N64 was the worst of the generation but it is Nintendo and has Mario and Zelda and many guys who never touched the system when it was available collect or resell for it today. I know a long time local collector who has never played a single game of Mario on any system. He played Doom and then Halo and COD but for right now at least Nintendo is where the money is.

Bragging rights and reselling have always been a big part of this hobby and cash as they say is king. I remember the first time I saw a Atari game rarity list. Instantly in that moment it hit me that videogames were the next big hobby. If you got in early and bought the right stuff you could name your price. Last month I unloaded hundreds of new Atarisoft titles which I horded for 10+ years for $1.50 each to another local just to make room in the house. As you may have guessed not everything I expected to appreciate in value has but somethings have way beyond my expectations. Had I been BuyNintendo instead of BuyAtari I'm sure I'd be able to retire right now.

I like videogames but I can't pay the rent with them nor can I feed my family with them without converting them into cash. When long time collectors find themsleves in a rut they sell off the games they collected. In a way for some it is a part of growing up and setting priorities. It is selfish to keep a game that is now worth 10k when your family could use a new car?

The only difference today is that the money is bigger which happens in time with all hobbies that do not fade away and the transactions are more public. In the past many high dollar sales were private and not made public but now that they have become more obvious I can tell you that they have always been there and that money has been a factor for as long as I have been collecting.

That doesn't mean is has to be the hobby for you. You can just collect what you enjoy and there is plenty out there which is cheap.

[jonebone]

Collectors pick which systems to collect not based on what they enjoy or had as a kid but what everyone else is collecting. What is hot and what is not. The N64 is the best example of this. The N64 was the worst of the generation but it is Nintendo and has Mario and Zelda and many guys who never touched the system when it was available collect or resell for it today. I know a long time local collector who has never played a single game of Mario on any system. He played Doom and then Halo and COD but for right now at least Nintendo is where the money is.


Well you can speak for yourself there. I would part with every single item in my collection before parting with a few N64 games, it was my favorite system by far, and will always be my favorite system to collect for. With such a small library though, you run out of things to collect and eventually have to branch out, or stop collecting. So many of us branch out.

You favorites get you into the hobby, but at some point value does influence your purchases. I would collect Sega Genesis / WWF Wrestling VHS / and a few other things if value was all created equal. But it's not, so as you mention, I tend to focus on most things Nintendo.

So after you finish your favorites, most people continue to collect instead of stopping entirely. At that point you realize that your time is worth money, so you might as well collect things that have value associated with them. I don't think that makes it "all about the money though". When I think of "all about the money", it's the people who are a slave to eBay every single day in and out, with a continuous rotating stock of items for sale. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but there are definitely more people like that now, than 4 years ago when I started. And probably even less back in the 90s.

[Buyatari]

Well you can speak for yourself there. I would part with every single item in my collection before parting with a few N64 games, it was my favorite system by far, and will always be my favorite system to collect for. With such a small library though, you run out of things to collect and eventually have to branch out, or stop collecting. So many of us branch out.

You favorites get you into the hobby, but at some point value does influence your purchases. I would collect Sega Genesis / WWF Wrestling VHS / and a few other things if value was all created equal. But it's not, so as you mention, I tend to focus on most things Nintendo.

So after you finish your favorites, most people continue to collect instead of stopping entirely. At that point you realize that your time is worth money, so you might as well collect things that have value associated with them. I don't think that makes it "all about the money though". When I think of "all about the money", it's the people who are a slave to eBay every single day in and out, with a continuous rotating stock of items for sale. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but there are definitely more people like that now, than 4 years ago when I started. And probably even less back in the 90s.

Perhaps you were a kid when N64 was released.

I owned retail gamestores when this system was current if you weren't a kid this was not your main system. Playstation was king. Of course I speak in general terms and there are always exceptions but when teenagers ,20 something or 30 something year old males walked into the store you just knew they wouldn't be asking for the latest N64 games. Now those same customers are asking if we have Harvest Moon and Conkers and I know they don't own the system. They played one system and collect/resell something totally different.

It will be curious to see if all these COD and Gears of War nuts ask about rare and expensive Wii games one day.

[treismac]

I've collected many things over the years and I am very confident that at some point in the near future, the bubble will burst and the resellers will move on like they always do. Until then, there are plenty of collectors out there who care about the games first and preserving history and who will continue to operate in the spirit of the old days of video game collecting.

Let the bubble burst, and burst soon. Let the resellers move on to other pastures. But most of all, let us who love video games continue to play, collect, share, and preserve our beloved hobby long after the money has left our scene.

[Buyatari]

For you personally it may have always been about the money, but having been a collector since 1989, I can honestly say the whole flipping/reselling thing is a relatively new phenomenon, at least in the scale and scope it's happening today and it's still not where most collectors are operating. For most of the 90s and even into the 2000s, there were a number of good on-line small retailers selling old games at reasonable prices, plenty of Ebay auctions that were actual auctions and plenty of collectors who traded or sold stuff at or below cost whenever they met up at various local gatherings or CGE and other regional conventions. I know I have given away thousands of dollars in duplicate games and consoles over the years to new collectors and I know many other collectors have done the same thing. In short, collecting was always a community first and the whole money thing was completely secondary. Similarly, the vast majority of people collecting prototypes and other rare items in the 90s were not doing it for the money. They did it to preserve the games and to build interesting and unique collections. Heck, if everyone was doing it for the money, there would be no museum at CGE or large holdings of rare Atari items like Curt Vendel's collection.

With the rise of NES collecting and grading, the whole flipper/reseller thing has reached alarming proportions. For me personally, it troubles me that these resellers are contributing nothing to the collecting community, using tips and resources from collectors to profit and essentially sitting on Ebay to grab stuff only to have it graded and re-sell it a month or two later at several times the original price. There is no real work going into the process, it's not like these people are going out and searching swap meets or thrifts or scouring distributor warehouses for the stuff, they are simply snagging games before other non-flipper/reseller collectors can purchase them on Ebay and marking up the prices to absrud levels.

I guess my major trouble with all of this is that there seems to be a lack of outrage against these resellers. I have no problem with people selling their excess or even buying lots and breaking it up, removing what they need for their own collection. I do have an issue with people doing the perpetual Ebay flipping and justifying it by saying it supports their collection. Those resellers hurt other collectors by taking away their opporunity to grow their collections at reasonable prices. That should not be commended or accepted. Similarly, these resellers shouldn't be allowed to have free access to the knowledge and advice of collectors who really do care about the games and want to help other members of the community to grow their collections and not profit financially.

I've collected many things over the years and I am very confident that at some point in the near future, the bubble will burst and the resellers will move on like they always do. Until then, there are plenty of collectors out there who care about the games first and preserving history and who will continue to operate in the spirit of the old days of video game collecting.

There might be too much here to comment on for this thread.

-Collect for whatever reason you want. Money is still a factor and has always been a factor in transactions. Give things away but the value is always on your mind. Easier to give away a system and some loose games than it is an NWC cart when one just sold for $20k+ You might still give it away but it is a factor in your decision.

-Curt is one of the best you will find. He is a great guy with an amazing collection. If anyone can claim to not be in it for the money it would be him. Still he has sold things because people made incredible offers. He is not in it for the money but money was a factor in selling. There are things he would still own today if the offers he recieved were not exceptional.

-Money has always been a factor. Even if you don't resell and are just a collector you base the price you pay on recent.past and even projected future selling prices. No one pays 5-10k for something they believe is worth $50 to the rest of the world.

-There is nothing wrong with collecting for the enjoyment of collecting.

-There is nothing wrong with buying something with the intent to resell it for a profit at a future date. Should you instead put $1000 of your family savings in the bank making 1-2% if you just know you can double up in a month or two on a particular purchase? Would you honestly fault someone if they did either way?

[Kevincal]

You all know the real culprit in all of this, that enabled the explosion of video game collecting craziness..

EBAY.

without ebay most video game values would be insanely lower. But ebay put video game collecting in the limelight and its only grown stronger since ebay came around in the mid 90's.

[Buyatari]

Let the bubble burst, and burst soon. Let the resellers move on to other pastures. But most of all, let us who love video games continue to play, collect, share, and preserve our beloved hobby long after the money has left our scene.

Somethings fall fall in price but the most desirable pieces in top condition will continue to rise. Baseball cards and comics both had huge collapses but the top material is worth more than ever. Videogames are a part of our culture and have replaced just about every toy known with kids today. Never before has one item been such a force with children. In the 60's,70's and even the 80's there were several items that each held a share of children and their playtime. Today videogames hold a larger share of that playtime than any other item ever. Love it or hate it, I don't see big prices ever going away and for the top items it will only get worse.

[BeaglePuss]

Replace Atari with Nintendo or Sega and you have the Nolan's...
http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e27/beaglepuss/2afam3ljpg-1.gif

[Buyatari]

You all know the real culprit in all of this, that enabled the explosion of video game collecting craziness..

EBAY.

without ebay most video game values would be insanely lower. But ebay put video game collecting in the limelight and its only grown stronger since ebay came around in the mid 90's.

The internet has made the world a smaller place. Without it videogames would have taken a much longer time to mature as a collectable but comic books and baseball cards were able to do so prior to the interent and videogames would have done so without it as well.

[Griking]

I'm quoting this because everyone passed it off, especially buyatari as an 'overly paranoid' view but no one countered it. So here we go:

Braveheart69 is shilling like crazy any black box auction to boost prices to make what he has even more valuable.

http://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewBidItems&all=1&_rdc=1&userid=braveheart69&&rows=50&completed=1&sort=3&guest=1

Note the feedback: 3283 (as of 4/15). Now look at this infamous DK Jr Math lot auction:

http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewBids&_trksid=p4340.l2565&rt=nc&item=290690633965

Do you see a familiar number? e***r (3283)? Also look at the bids. He made half of them.

This is clearly braveheart69, someone who owns a ridiculously mint copy of DK Jr Math from TheFrisbee. He's either trying to hoard these, boost prices or both.

How is my assertion overly paranoid again? And don't say you can't counter it - I mean, "fuck It, (you) can't be bothered at this point" if you're going to reply at all.


Maybe I'm not understanding your point but what is this braveheart69 actually doing wrong? How is it shilling if you're bidding on soneone else's auction or are you suggesting that Braveheart69 is the same person as stickmans_onlinestuff?

[Griking]

You all know the real culprit in all of this, that enabled the explosion of video game collecting craziness..

EBAY.

without ebay most video game values would be insanely lower. But ebay put video game collecting in the limelight and its only grown stronger since ebay came around in the mid 90's.

Yup. and I remember clearly when the people around here would deny that eBay sets the value of what a game is worth. Almost EVERYONE who resells items will check to see what an item sells for on eBay before selling it in their local store. Pawn shops do it, consignment shops do it, Goodwills do it and you know damned well that most of the people at flea markets do it. Now you can argue that the prices that they reference aren't accurate, (I like to point out to my local Goodwill when they put a print out of an eBay auction to show an item's value that nobody actually bid on the auction that they're referencing) but they're what people base their prices on.

[Bojay1997]

Somethings fall fall in price but the most desirable pieces in top condition will continue to rise. Baseball cards and comics both had huge collapses but the top material is worth more than ever. Videogames are a part of our culture and have replaced just about every toy known with kids today. Never before has one item been such a force with children. In the 60's,70's and even the 80's there were several items that each held a share of children and their playtime. Today videogames hold a larger share of that playtime than any other item ever. Love it or hate it, I don't see big prices ever going away and for the top items it will only get worse.

We'll just have to disagree on this point. You're talking about mass market items that had print runs in the millions in many cases. People will be finding stashes of games for many, many years to come. Unlike old comics and baseball cards where distributors and to a greater extent regular people would have thrown them out because of the perception they were worthless and just had no purpose taking up space in a home or warehouse, it's a lot harder for someone to throw away old consoles and games. You can go to any swap meet or thrift store in the US and I guarantee you will find old video games. You can't say the same thing about baseball cards or comic books. Another part of it is that the general public is now aware that baseball cards and comics can be valuable. Despite Pawn Stars and a few other sources promoting the idea that video games are super valuable, I would argue that the general public has no idea of the current values and as such, they aren't digging through closets and attics to dump this stuff on the market just yet. Once video game collecting really gets mass publicity, there will be massive amounts of new stock discovered, I guarantee it.

As long as there are interested collectors, it's possible that prices will increase or at least remain stable. The problem right now is that stuff that really isn't all that rare is going for crazy amounts of money. Older and rarer stuff on platforms like the 2600 is either stable or has decreased in price. I believe it's because just like toys, video games are cyclical and depend on the personal experiences of the people who collect them. As more and more 2600 collectors age and loose interest, prices will continue to fall. The same will happen with the NES because the reality is that Nintendo has carried forward very few of its older IPs other than the obvious ones like Mario, etc...There is simply little current connection to much of the rest of the NES library, so right now demand is being driven almost exclusively by adults who owned the NES as kids. That generation will age and die out eventually and the cycle will repeat.

[Panzerfuzion]

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e27/beaglepuss/2afam3ljpg-1.gif

Thank you my friend for the response I was looking for, also for showing the collecting world what your modus operandi is. Take Care.

[Buyatari]

We'll just have to disagree on this point. You're talking about mass market items that had print runs in the millions in many cases. People will be finding stashes of games for many, many years to come. Unlike old comics and baseball cards where distributors and to a greater extent regular people would have thrown them out because of the perception they were worthless and just had no purpose taking up space in a home or warehouse, it's a lot harder for someone to throw away old consoles and games. You can go to any swap meet or thrift store in the US and I guarantee you will find old video games. You can't say the same thing about baseball cards or comic books. Another part of it is that the general public is now aware that baseball cards and comics can be valuable. Despite Pawn Stars and a few other sources promoting the idea that video games are super valuable, I would argue that the general public has no idea of the current values and as such, they aren't digging through closets and attics to dump this stuff on the market just yet. Once video game collecting really gets mass publicity, there will be massive amounts of new stock discovered, I guarantee it.

As long as there are interested collectors, it's possible that prices will increase or at least remain stable. The problem right now is that stuff that really isn't all that rare is going for crazy amounts of money. Older and rarer stuff on platforms like the 2600 is either stable or has decreased in price. I believe it's because just like toys, video games are cyclical and depend on the personal experiences of the people who collect them. As more and more 2600 collectors age and loose interest, prices will continue to fall. The same will happen with the NES because the reality is that Nintendo has carried forward very few of its older IPs other than the obvious ones like Mario, etc...There is simply little current connection to much of the rest of the NES library, so right now demand is being driven almost exclusively by adults who owned the NES as kids. That generation will age and die out eventually and the cycle will repeat.

I'm not saying the mass produced items of today will go up and up. What I am saying is that because there are mass produced items a market will exist for the rarest most desirable items of the past. Few people want Action Comics #1 because they remember reading it as a child. They want it because Superman has become an icon and the character lives on in movies and popular culture. I would argue that videogames today have a bigger impact on children and society than combic books ever had. They have a huge share of the marketplace and you will meet few people young or old who will have no idea who Mario or Sonic are.

Many 2600 items have fallen in price and I'd expect to continue to see some of this except for the rarest and most desirable items in top condition. I wouldn't ever worry about losing value on a complete Eli's Ladder.

[Bojay1997]

I'm not saying the mass produced items of today will go up and up. What I am saying is that because there are mass produced items a market will exist for the rarest most desirable items of the past. Few people want Action Comics #1 because they remember reading it as a child. They want it because Superman has become an icon and the character lives on in movies and popular culture. I would argue that videogames today have a bigger impact on children and society than combic books ever had. They have a huge share of the marketplace and you will meet few people young or old who will have no idea who Mario or Sonic are.

Many 2600 items have fallen in price and I'd expect to continue to see some of this except for the rarest and most desirable items in top condition. I wouldn't ever worry about losing value on a complete Eli's Ladder.

I agree, but if you look at what is commanding the highest prices on the NES right now, it's not necessarily the "rarest" games, it's common stuff in the mintiest sealed condition. I find it hard to believe that games of that type are going to continue to go beyond the thousands of dollars they are currently commanding. There are just too many copies out there and not enough collectors with those kinds of funds long term. Indeed, unlike comics and baseball cards, the combination of acidic plastics, metals and paper will likely result in even properly stored video games not having the longevity of comics or baseball cards simply because there is no real means of preserving a sealed game long term. I would suspect that people will be much more interested in mint complete copies over time simply because the components can be separated and individually preserved.

I would also note that video games started to be collected much earlier in relative terms than baseball cards or comics. Most of the research I have read indicates that serious comic book collecting didn't really start until the early 1970s, some 40 years after the "modern" comic books of the 1930s were released. It took another decade or so for comic collecting to go truly mainstream and by the 90s, it had largely slowed back down again to a fraction of the 1980s levels. In video games, it took maybe half as long meaning that for at least half of the history of video games, people have been collecting them and keeping them pretty well preserved. That means there is a lot out there in really nice shape even if there are fewer video game collectors than comic collectors overall.

I have no doubt that video games have had a significant societal impact, but that doesn't necessarily mean all or even most of those kids will grow up to be collectors. With digital versions of older games widely available and lots of other entertainment options out there, fewer people owning their own homes resulting in less space for collectibles and frankly, most gamers just not caring much about older games, the pump is primed for a pricing correction once this current bubble bursts.

[Buyatari]

I agree, but if you look at what is commanding the highest prices on the NES right now, it's not necessarily the "rarest" games, it's common stuff in the mintiest sealed condition. I find it hard to believe that games of that type are going to continue to go beyond the thousands of dollars they are currently commanding. There are just too many copies out there and not enough collectors with those kinds of funds long term. Indeed, unlike comics and baseball cards, the combination of acidic plastics, metals and paper will likely result in even properly stored video games not having the longevity of comics or baseball cards simply because there is no real means of preserving a sealed game long term. I would suspect that people will be much more interested in mint complete copies over time simply because the components can be separated and individually preserved.

I would also note that video games started to be collected much earlier in relative terms than baseball cards or comics. Most of the research I have read indicates that serious comic book collecting didn't really start until the early 1970s, some 40 years after the "modern" comic books of the 1930s were released. It took another decade or so for comic collecting to go truly mainstream and by the 90s, it had largely slowed back down again to a fraction of the 1980s levels. In video games, it took maybe half as long meaning that for at least half of the history of video games, people have been collecting them and keeping them pretty well preserved. That means there is a lot out there in really nice shape even if there are fewer video game collectors than comic collectors overall.

I have no doubt that video games have had a significant societal impact, but that doesn't necessarily mean all or even most of those kids will grow up to be collectors. With digital versions of older games widely available and lots of other entertainment options out there, fewer people owning their own homes resulting in less space for collectibles and frankly, most gamers just not caring much about older games, the pump is primed for a pricing correction once this current bubble bursts.

No it doesn't mean all those kids will grow up to be collectors but I suspect there are more potential videogame collectors than there are for comicbooks and baseball cards. I would guess that more kids play Marvel Alliance than read Xmen combic books and do kids even buy baseball cards anymore?

A few of the NES black box games are common to find. Pinball and Golf for example could easily crash but some of those others with 1st pressings are insanely rare to find sealed. Any blackbox with a flagship character like Mario or Donkey Kong should be just fine no matter what the price is currently.

Check ebay right now and count how many copies of Amazing Spiderman #1 are for sale right now. It is fairly common with multiple copies for sale at any given moment. Still a top graded copy can break 100k and even lower graded copies do pretty well from year after year. An item doesn't have to be insanely rare if it is a desired item esp if in is in top condition.

[Bojay1997]

No it doesn't mean all those kids will grow up to be collectors but I suspect there are more potential videogame collectors than there are for comicbooks and baseball cards. I would guess that more kids play Marvel Alliance than read Xmen combic books and do kids even buy baseball cards anymore?

A few of the NES black box games are common to find. Pinball and Golf for example could easily crash but some of those others with 1st pressings are insanely rare to find sealed. Any blackbox with a flagship character like Mario or Donkey Kong should be just fine no matter what the price is currently.

Check ebay right now and count how many copies of Amazing Spiderman #1 are for sale right now. It is fairly common with multiple copies for sale at any given moment. Still a top graded copy can break 100k and even lower graded copies do pretty well from year after year. An item doesn't have to be insanely rare if it is a desired item esp if in is in top condition.

I don't know about that. My five year old nephew plays video games now, but everything he has ever played has been on an iPad and has never come on physical media. He also could care less about Mario since most of his TV watching involves stuff on various Disney channels and who knows if he will ever get a 3DS or WiiU. With mobile devices rapidly becoming equal in capabilities to dedicated portables, I suspect within one more generation Nintendo and other companies will simply be in the software business if they even exist at all. I also think the next generation of gamers is going to be far less into collecting physical "stuff" the same way current consumers have significantly cut back on buying new release DVDs and PC gamers have largely adopted digital downloading for new game purchases. I mean how many people collect CDs or records today? It's a lot less than five or ten years ago and considering most people are music fans of one sort or another, it would seem like the population of music collectors would be growing, but as a vinyl collector myself, I can tell you for certain that's not the case at all.

Sealed games are something that won't continue to appreciate long term simply because they decay over time. Have you ever seen old records or even toys with shrink wrap older than a few decades? They have a yellow or brown tinge and the paper and colors start to discolor. It's just not a permanent thing no matter how carefully you try to protect it. I myself am guilty of being a sealed collector, but I would never pay a premium for sealed stuff simply because I know it can't last over the long haul. People spending thousands for graded games are in for a sad reality 20 years from now when their plastic cases are filled with brown and sticky wrap and boxes that have begun to cave in. There's a reason libraries and museums which house software collections insist on removing the wrap. Plastic is very volatile because ultimately it's a petroleum product and it reacts with paper, glue, dyes, metal, etc...all of which are used in the printing and manufacturing processes for cartridge and disc based video games.

[Buyatari]

I don't know about that. My five year old nephew plays video games now, but everything he has ever played has been on an iPad and has never come on physical media. He also could care less about Mario since most of his TV watching involves stuff on various Disney channels and who knows if he will ever get a 3DS or WiiU. With mobile devices rapidly becoming equal in capabilities to dedicated portables, I suspect within one more generation Nintendo and other companies will simply be in the software business if they even exist at all. I also think the next generation of gamers is going to be far less into collecting physical "stuff" the same way current consumers have significantly cut back on buying new release DVDs and PC gamers have largely adopted digital downloading for new game purchases. I mean how many people collect CDs or records today? It's a lot less than five or ten years ago and considering most people are music fans of one sort or another, it would seem like the population of music collectors would be growing, but as a vinyl collector myself, I can tell you for certain that's not the case at all.

Sealed games are something that won't continue to appreciate long term simply because they decay over time. Have you ever seen old records or even toys with shrink wrap older than a few decades? They have a yellow or brown tinge and the paper and colors start to discolor. It's just not a permanent thing no matter how carefully you try to protect it. I myself am guilty of being a sealed collector, but I would never pay a premium for sealed stuff simply because I know it can't last over the long haul. People spending thousands for graded games are in for a sad reality 20 years from now when their plastic cases are filled with brown and sticky wrap and boxes that have begun to cave in. There's a reason libraries and museums which house software collections insist on removing the wrap. Plastic is very volatile because ultimately it's a petroleum product and it reacts with paper, glue, dyes, metal, etc...all of which are used in the printing and manufacturing processes for cartridge and disc based video games.

It doesn't matter what type of gaming he does. I would guess he plays more games than he reads comic books or flips baseball cards etc. It won't matter if consoles go by the way side. I feel that anyone interested in videogame history will be interested in the originals.

Speaking of losing out to digital media here is an article on a famous collectable Beatles record. I've linked the article below but here is the part I think you may find the most interesting.



So exactly how much are these butcher cover albums worth?: The 2007 (6th) edition of Price Guide For The Beatles American Records by Perry Cox and Frank Daniels gives us the following figures:

1) First state mono in near mint condition: $4000
2) First state mono promotional copy in near mint condition (w/Promotional Copy – Not For Sale stamp): $5000
3) First state stereo copy in near mint condition: $12,000
4) Second state (paste-over) mono copy in near mint condition: $800
5) Second state (paste-over) stereo copy in near mint condition: $1500
6) Third state (peeled) mono copy in near mint condition: $800
7) Third state (peeled) stereo copy in near mint condition: $1500

Of course, these figures are just guidelines, and to be honest, seem to me to be quite low in comparison with some recent sales I have seen. In the case of first and second state copies, if the albums are still sealed (i.e. unopened) in their original shrink wrap they can bring several times the price listed above.


http://www.thebeatlesrarity.com/2011/01/30/collectors-corner-yesterday-and-today-and-the-infamous-butcher-cover/


----edit-------

Here is a related article on a stash of 24 sealed butcher albums that were discovered. I am not a record collector but it seems that with this particular issue having it still sealed is a good thing not a bad thing.


Over the years there have been many great finds for Beatles record collectors, but probably the most significant was the discovery ten years ago of what ended up to be twenty-four original sealed first state Butcher cover albums.


It's hard to believe that it's been 8 years since the above information was written. It may be even harder to believe that during this time the value of premium butcher covers has more than tripled. The market value of the 24 Livingston butcher covers is now approaching an astonishing one million dollars!! Record prices of $85,000 for a stereo copy and $44,000 were set a couple of years ago. It looks like the sky is going to be the limit...

http://www.rarebeatles.com/album2/picts2/fspile3.jpg

http://www.rarebeatles.com/album2/discog/livleter.htm

[Bojay1997]

It doesn't matter what type of gaming he does. I would guess he plays more games than he reads comic books or flips baseball cards etc. It won't matter if consoles go by the way side. I feel that anyone interested in videogame history will be interested in the originals.

Speaking of losing out to digital media here is an article on a famous collectable Beatles record. I've linked the article below but here is the part I think you may find the most interesting.



http://www.thebeatlesrarity.com/2011/01/30/collectors-corner-yesterday-and-today-and-the-infamous-butcher-cover/

But how many gamers really care about the history of games enough to go through the work of tracking down the original console and games? How willing are they going to be to do the work and spend the money to do so if the games are easily downloaded for low cost in near perfect versions? I'm sorry, but I know a lot of video game collectors nowadays who are open to buying digital copies because of money and more importantly space. Not everyone cares about physically inserting a cartridge or looking at a box or label.

My nephew actually watches more TV than anything else and he plays a lot of sports and builds legos and plays with lots of different action figures and other toys, just like a lot of kids. Video games are important and lots of kids play them, but it's not even close to the level it was when I was a kid when there was no such thing as hundreds of channels, DVDs, streaming media, the Internet and dozens of other things for even very young kids to do. Heck, most parents I know are steering their kids into other activities nowadays and frankly I know more parents that regularly play video games than their kids.

On the Beatles stuff, I'm not seeing the relevance. The Butcher Cover was not a mass produced item that was widely available. It's value is derived almost exclusively from its rarity and how out of character it seemed with the previous images of the band and what mainstream artists were putting on picture covers in that era. Similarly, the vast majority of even first pressing Beatles albums are not crazy valuable simply because so many were pressed and the music can still be purchased in a form identical to or in some cases better than it's original release format for a fraction of what it cost new. It doesn't change the fact that people aren't exactly flocking to the vinyl collecting hobby nor are masses of new Beatles collectors coming on the scene. I would also note that when I was collecting Beatles stuff and vinyl, the Butcher Cover was always in the thousands of dollars for a nice copy. It's not like these values suddenly exploded and they have certainly seen ups and downs in the past 20 years. I also have significant doubts that shrink wrap is going to last for decades, especially since most collectors don't have anything nearing a stable climate controlled environment in which to store their sealed items.

Like I said, I have no doubt that over time there will be some truly rare and valuable video games, but if you're considering this momentary spike in the value of a very small set of NES games mostly resulting from a handful of collectors with more money than sense to be the start of continuing growth in pricing, I am positive you are going to be very disappointed in a few years.

[Buyatari]

Actually, he watches more TV than anything else and he plays a lot of sports and builds legos and plays with lots of different action figures and other toys, just like a lot of kids. Video games are important and lots of kids play them, but it's not even close to the level it was when I was a kid when there was no such thing as hundreds of channels, DVDs, streaming media, the Internet and dozens of other things for even very young kids to do. Heck, most parents I know are steering their kids into other activities nowadays and frankly I know more parents that regularly play video games than their kids.

On the Beatles stuff, I'm not seeing the relevance. The Butcher Cover was not a mass produced item that was widely available. It's value is derived almost exclusively from its rarity and how out of character it seemed with the previous images of the band and what mainstream artists were putting on picture covers in that era. Similarly, the vast majority of even first pressing Beatles albums are not crazy valuable simply because so many were pressed and the music can still be purchased in a form identical to or in some cases better than it's original release format for a fraction of what it cost new. It doesn't change the fact that people aren't exactly flocking to the vinyl collecting hobby nor are masses of new Beatles collectors coming on the scene. I would also note that when I was collecting Beatles stuff and vinyl, the Butcher Cover was always in the thousands of dollars for a nice copy. It's not like these values suddenly exploded and they have certainly seen ups and downs in the past 20 years. I also have significant doubts that shrink wrap is going to last for decades, especially since most collectors don't have anything nearing a stable climate controlled environment in which to store their sealed items.

Like I said, I have no doubt that over time there will be some truly rare and valuable video games, but if you're considering this momentary spike in the value of a very small set of NES games mostly resulting from a handful of collectors with more money than sense to be the start of continuing growth in pricing, I am positive you are going to be very disappointed in a few years.

I'll be honest and tell you that I don't know this one five year old child. My stance on children and videogames still stands. Children spend more time playing them and parents spend more money buying them than they do any other hobby that I am aware of. The means may change if things go digital but gaming itself will not go away any time soon.

I know nothing of record collectors so when you posted that shrinkwrap was a bad thing for records I did a google search and found that article. In those articles and a few others I found after it was clear that having this particular album still sealed made that record much more valuable. The Beatles butcher album was recalled in 1966 and being about 20 years older than sealed NES games I thought it was relevant because you stated in 20 years all sealed games would be crap. So now we have something that is 20 years older than the selaed NES games we are talking about and it is much more valuable if it is still sealed.

[jonebone]

People spending thousands for graded games are in for a sad reality 20 years from now when their plastic cases are filled with brown and sticky wrap and boxes that have begun to cave in. There's a reason libraries and museums which house software collections insist on removing the wrap. Plastic is very volatile because ultimately it's a petroleum product and it reacts with paper, glue, dyes, metal, etc...all of which are used in the printing and manufacturing processes for cartridge and disc based video games.

You realize that many of these graded games are now 25+ years old at this point? But magically in another 20 years, the plastic will be so yellowed / brown / sticky that they look like big piles of crap? You can certainly have that opinion, but I think that's laughable at best. These games have survived for decades in poor climates like attics / basements / closets that are conducive to mold / mildew. Some games have surely come from smoking households as well, yet the smell is often worse than any yellowing.

Just reminds me of the whole "your save battery will only last 10 years" or "the EPROMs will only last 10 years", yet plenty of protos / arcades / save games still exist 25 years later. I'm not saying they'll last another 100 years with ease, but I am saying that these deterioration arguments are blown WAY out of proportion. If anything, it should urge you to collect more today, because getting a 90 or above on a VGA NES game could be difficult 50 years down the road if the wrap has deteriorated as you've speculated.

The other interesting point that I'd make, is that a Mint sealed Zelda will pass the value of a sealed Stadium Events one day. I'm of the belief that there are more favorites collectors... those who go after childhood favorites, or their favorite series. Most of the rare guys are just speculators who want to buy and flip in a year or two at a profit. It's just playing hot potato and at some point, someone gets stuck with it.

But Zeldas / Marios / etc. will always be in demand as long as Nintendo is alive. You are right, if Nintendo is pushed into bankruptcy by the evolving digital download market, then maybe NES would simply be a passing fad in the timeline of history. But even then, Nintendo can easily survive by just making their Zelda / Mario games digital downloads themselves, continuing demand for the first occurrence of the series.

It's a great discussion to have though. While I don't agree with many of your points, I at least acknowledge them. Hopefully you can at least acknowledge ours as well, even if you think we are delusional.

[Bojay1997]

I didn't say shrink-wrap was only good for 20 years. What I did say is that 20 years from now (i.e. in some cases 50 years from when the games were first manufactured), I think it's very unlikely you will find any mint sealed games. I mean all you have to do is talk to any toy collector who collects toys from the 1950s and ask if they have ever seen a non-yellowed/non-decaying sealed cardboard box item. They haven't. Save batteries and eproms have a limited lifespan whether you want to believe it or not. How many non-Phoenixed original CPS-2 boards are still working with the original battery? Not many. In fact, I collect CPS-2 boards and I have never seen one that has never had the battery replaced that is still ok. Batteries and eproms have a limited life, no matter how well they are stored.

As for grading, just because something gets a 90 today doesn't mean if it starts to decay it's still a 90. There are plenty of graded comics that have to be re-graded over time simply because they start to brown or are stored improperly after grading. I mean, if you have true archival storage (a dark, climate and humidity controlled acid and pollution free environment), perhaps you can extend the lives of your sealed games slightly. I just don't think any collector other than the guy that runs Neo Geo.com allegedly has such a system.

I don't know if common games will be more valuable than truly rare ones. The fact remains that there were millions of Zeldas manufactured and there are probably hundreds of thousands of complete copies still out there, thousands of sealed ones and who knows how many loose ones. That's more than enough for the likely number of collectors out there well into the future. Ultimately, not everyone will want sealed, especially if they start seeing things decay over time. I also don't buy that even hardcore collectors will continue to pay thousands of dollars for sealed copies unless it becomes very clear that there are only a few of that particular game in that condition. Even then, as decay sets in, demand will wane.

I agree with you that anything could happen, but as someone who has been involved in collecting many things over the years, I just don't think video games are exempt from the same factors that impact other hobbies including people moving on to other things, a lack of nostalgia as people age and die and younger collectors move in and most importantly, a societal shift towards owning fewer physical items. If you had told me five years ago the DVD business would collapse because people were happier with Netflix and downloads/streaming, I would have laughed at you. Yet, here we are with DVD and Blu Ray sales being a small percentage of what they were at their peak. Video games will be no different. You will always have collectors, but at some point it won't be at the level it is today and most people will be happy having near perfect digital copies of the games to play rather than filling their homes with the physical originals.


You realize that many of these graded games are now 25+ years old at this point? But magically in another 20 years, the plastic will be so yellowed / brown / sticky that they look like big piles of crap? You can certainly have that opinion, but I think that's laughable at best. These games have survived for decades in poor climates like attics / basements / closets that are conducive to mold / mildew. Some games have surely come from smoking households as well, yet the smell is often worse than any yellowing.

Just reminds me of the whole "your save battery will only last 10 years" or "the EPROMs will only last 10 years", yet plenty of protos / arcades / save games still exist 25 years later. I'm not saying they'll last another 100 years with ease, but I am saying that these deterioration arguments are blown WAY out of proportion. If anything, it should urge you to collect more today, because getting a 90 or above on a VGA NES game could be difficult 50 years down the road if the wrap has deteriorated as you've speculated.

The other interesting point that I'd make, is that a Mint sealed Zelda will pass the value of a sealed Stadium Events one day. I'm of the belief that there are more favorites collectors... those who go after childhood favorites, or their favorite series. Most of the rare guys are just speculators who want to buy and flip in a year or two at a profit. It's just playing hot potato and at some point, someone gets stuck with it.

But Zeldas / Marios / etc. will always be in demand as long as Nintendo is alive. You are right, if Nintendo is pushed into bankruptcy by the evolving digital download market, then maybe NES would simply be a passing fad in the timeline of history. But even then, Nintendo can easily survive by just making their Zelda / Mario games digital downloads themselves, continuing demand for the first occurrence of the series.

It's a great discussion to have though. While I don't agree with many of your points, I at least acknowledge them. Hopefully you can at least acknowledge ours as well, even if you think we are delusional.

[jonebone]

I don't know if common games will be more valuable than truly rare ones. The fact remains that there were millions of Zeldas manufactured and there are probably hundreds of thousands of complete copies still out there, thousands of sealed ones and who knows how many loose ones. That's more than enough for the likely number of collectors out there well into the future.

But that's the thing, no matter how many "thousands of sealed ones" are out there, there are surely not thousands of MINT sealed ones. If every Zelda collector just wants a copy of Zelda, regardless of the seal (oval vs. white), regardless of condition (tears / creases / etc.), and regardless of release (Player's Choice vs. Original), then yes, supply would satisfy everyone.

But it doesn't work that way. Everyone wants first print, and as Mint as they can find. No matter how many copies are in circulation, there will always be a highest known grade.

You speak of other hobbies, and population reports are standard in cards at least (only other hobby I know). For example, a listing might say PSA 10 Cal Ripken Topps Traded Rookie, Pop 5. This is verifiable via the PSA database, and VGA plans to have one at some point. In this case, you know that you are bidding on the highest possible grade, and there are 4 others in existence. Of course there are many other ungraded copies out there, but getting high grades in any hobby is no easy task.

Even with all of the VGA resellers, which you mention being at an all-time high, you still don't see a bunch of new NES VGA 90 titles popping up, especially on the fan-favorites. It's the high grades that will always be in demand as long as video games are collectible.

But yes, you could theorize that we all may move on in our 50's / 60's / late age as we retire and have other more important things to do. Who knows if there will be a new generation of buyers at that point.

But none of that matters today. All I know is that we are nowhere near the top on the insanely Mint and popular fan favorites. If you're only in it as an investment, you'll still have many years to determine when you want to get out.

[Bojay1997]

You raise some interesting points, but plenty of other hobbies have grading as well and not everyone or even most collectors in any hobby seek out the highest graded copies in existence. Personally, I don't buy graded games but I do collect sealed and my goal is always to find a nice copy which in VGA terms would be roughly 85+ or so. I have a large collection and my collecting goals are complete sets, not just a few nice examples of specific games. I know plenty of coin and comic collectors who set a grading floor and have zero interest in spending more to obtain a slightly more perfect example. Ultimately, everyone sets their own collecting goals and not every collector or even sealed collector out there is looking for a shelf full of 90 or better NES games. In fact, I think there is only a tiny handful of collectors who even care much about grading. Heck, the vast majority of collectors don't even collect sealed and I would suspect that this won't change in the future, especially if as you argue values continue to rise.

To provide accurate population reports, the grading service has to have graded a significant portion of tha available supply of an item. Most sealed sales on Ebay and elsewhere are still not graded and likely will never be. If that changes at some point, a population number may be of interest, but grading has not exactly been embraced by most collectors and not even the majority of sealed collectors.

If you're talking about sealed copies of rare NES games going for $10K+, I disagree with you that we aren't at the peak. There just aren't enough collectors now or ever with that kind of income or cash to sustain that type of pricing on what are modern mass produced items that can't be preserved in the long term. If your argument is that there are some sealed games that are "undervalued" right now that will continue to rise, I will agree with that. I don't, however, agree that video games are a sound investment long term as unlike comics or coins or other established collectibles, there is just too much unknown supply right now, too many other ways of having the same experience and frankly too much volatility in the industry in general to conclude that the next generation will care at all about the NES or the SNES or any other platform that they never owned. Ten years ago Atari collectors would have shared your view of limitless growth in value, but many of them learned the hard way that prices don't increase forever and the next generation of collectors always goes for what they remember from their childhood, not a vague sense of history and nostalgia for something they never experienced.


But that's the thing, no matter how many "thousands of sealed ones" are out there, there are surely not thousands of MINT sealed ones. If every Zelda collector just wants a copy of Zelda, regardless of the seal (oval vs. white), regardless of condition (tears / creases / etc.), and regardless of release (Player's Choice vs. Original), then yes, supply would satisfy everyone.

But it doesn't work that way. Everyone wants first print, and as Mint as they can find. No matter how many copies are in circulation, there will always be a highest known grade.

You speak of other hobbies, and population reports are standard in cards at least (only other hobby I know). For example, a listing might say PSA 10 Cal Ripken Topps Traded Rookie, Pop 5. This is verifiable via the PSA database, and VGA plans to have one at some point. In this case, you know that you are bidding on the highest possible grade, and there are 4 others in existence. Of course there are many other ungraded copies out there, but getting high grades in any hobby is no easy task.

Even with all of the VGA resellers, which you mention being at an all-time high, you still don't see a bunch of new NES VGA 90 titles popping up, especially on the fan-favorites. It's the high grades that will always be in demand as long as video games are collectible.

But yes, you could theorize that we all may move on in our 50's / 60's / late age as we retire and have other more important things to do. Who knows if there will be a new generation of buyers at that point.

But none of that matters today. All I know is that we are nowhere near the top on the insanely Mint and popular fan favorites. If you're only in it as an investment, you'll still have many years to determine when you want to get out.

[Kevincal]

ok heres something i think is stupid about vga, they only grade sealed games.

baseball cards and comic books, they will grade anything including used and beat up.

for instance I just sold a very near mint mario bros 3 CIB etc for like $40 buy it now. Had it had shrinkwrap on it new i could have sold it for maybe $100 or so. If it were graded by vga , sold for what, 300, 500?! If video games are now being graded I would like to see the opportunity of used games being graded, why not...

Also ebay needs to make their grading scale much more detailed. sellers should be given a scale of 1-10 instead of the 5 choices given. and a real collector should be given the task of the criteria for each grade. I noticed ebay kinda changed the grading, now its ok to list a game with manual as good instead of just acceptable, but it mentions nothing about a game with just the box being ok to list as good. grading is too vague on ebay.

[jonebone]

1) You raise some interesting points, but plenty of other hobbies have grading as well and not everyone or even most collectors in any hobby seek out the highest graded copies in existence. Personally, I don't buy graded games but I do collect sealed and my goal is always to find a nice copy which in VGA terms would be roughly 85+ or so. I have a large collection and my collecting goals are complete sets, not just a few nice examples of specific games. I know plenty of coin and comic collectors who set a grading floor and have zero interest in spending more to obtain a slightly more perfect example. Ultimately, everyone sets their own collecting goals and not every collector or even sealed collector out there is looking for a shelf full of 90 or better NES games. In fact, I think there is only a tiny handful of collectors who even care much about grading. Heck, the vast majority of collectors don't even collect sealed and I would suspect that this won't change in the future, especially if as you argue values continue to rise.

2) To provide accurate population reports, the grading service has to have graded a significant portion of tha available supply of an item. Most sealed sales on Ebay and elsewhere are still not graded and likely will never be. If that changes at some point, a population number may be of interest, but grading has not exactly been embraced by most collectors and not even the majority of sealed collectors.

3) If you're talking about sealed copies of rare NES games going for $10K+, I disagree with you that we aren't at the peak. There just aren't enough collectors now or ever with that kind of income or cash to sustain that type of pricing on what are modern mass produced items that can't be preserved in the long term. If your argument is that there are some sealed games that are "undervalued" right now that will continue to rise, I will agree with that. I don't, however, agree that video games are a sound investment long term as unlike comics or coins or other established collectibles, there is just too much unknown supply right now, too many other ways of having the same experience and frankly too much volatility in the industry in general to conclude that the next generation will care at all about the NES or the SNES or any other platform that they never owned. Ten years ago Atari collectors would have shared your view of limitless growth in value, but many of them learned the hard way that prices don't increase forever and the next generation of collectors always goes for what they remember from their childhood, not a vague sense of history and nostalgia for something they never experienced.

1) People are definitely limited by money, and obviously everyone won't go after the highest grade possible. However, everyone certainly sets a floor of what is acceptable. In terms of VGA, many people are setting the floor at 85+, which is the bare minimum for Gold Level. Even such, when you are talking about the highest confirmed grade, you only need two people that want it badly, to send the price out of control. Or as we're seeing with these Black Box sales, all you need to do is name your price, and then one person may bite.

And sealed is of course an acquired taste for most people... as I started out primarily a CIB guy. I still am a CIB guy, but go sealed on my favorites or when I find a bargain.

2) Population reports are always accurate as they state exactly what is graded right now. It is up to you as a collector to determine if it's an abundant game and the highest confirmed grade means much. Highest confirmed grade on Win Lose or Draw is obviously not as meaningful as highest confirmed grade on Donkey Kong Math.

As far as grading being embraced, it is vastly more accepted now than several years ago. I know because I was a VGA basher myself. You must also remember that is is more than just grading, it is authentication. It has already saved me from owning a Mega Man 1 NES reseal, Halo First print reseal, and a Legend of Zelda Wind Waker reseal. As you get new guys coming into this hobby with untrained eyes, it is very realistic to think that they would want VGA items to eliminate the real vs reseal headaches. Most of VGA critics are old-timers like yourself, while newcomers welcome it with open arms. And guess which one drives values in the hobby? New guys.

3) You don't have to make $10k income to have a $10k game. All you have to find is a Mint game that grades well, near the top of the population report, and you'll be rewarded generously. You get a few thousand and wow, now you're a buyer of something you couldn't afford. There's no investment at all, you just need a good VGA eye. You can buy a game at an all-time high today, but if it grades MINT at the top of the population report, you'll have INSANE offers coming your way. You won't believe it until you see it and do it yourself. I see it happen all the time... I know of a Zelda OOT V-Seam that sold on ebay for $700, graded 90, and that guy has already declined offers of very close to $10k.

And the best (or worst) part of these VGA sales, is that the money gets reciculated into the hobby, driving values farther. If someone sells a game for $20k, what do you think they do with that money? Use it to buy other wants of course (and maybe save some or spend some on other life expenses). That recirculation of the money puts more and more money into the hobby, and drives values even higher.

"Investments" apply to items you have to buy and hold, like a rare cart or rare CIB. It's a brutal reality, but if you have a VGA eye, there is no waiting. It really is as simple as buy Mint ungraded, grade at a high level, and profit thousands of dollars. Believe me, I agree that these valuations are absurd as well (I've still never spent over $600 for any one sealed game), but I'm at least smart enough to use the system to my advantage. I won't pay those values, but I sure as hell will take it if someone wants to buy something off me. Still prefer to trade though...

[jonebone]

for instance I just sold a very near mint mario bros 3 CIB etc for like $40 buy it now. Had it had shrinkwrap on it new i could have sold it for maybe $100 or so. If it were graded by vga , sold for what, 300, 500?!


VGA 85, probably $400. 85+, I thought was maybe $600-$800, but that new guy showed up and screwed up everything I knew about pricing.

Highest confirmed, 90+, $20,000. Wonder how much he got paid.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Nintendo-1990-NES-Super-Mario-Bros-3-VGA-90-NM-MT-Gold-Grade-Archival-Sealed-/260996438515?pt=Video_Games_Games&hash=item3cc49999f3

And even a 90, $11,999 OBO, though no idea what offers he's getting. I'd imagine at least $1.5k+.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Super-Mario-Bros-3-NES-Nintendo-NEW-Factory-Sealed-VGA-90-/320887358693?pt=Video_Games_Games&hash=item4ab66084e5

[Bojay1997]

All you are talking about is a self-contained bubble, not a true market. You're essentially just moving the decimal point in your head reasoning that because you sold something for $10K, it makes it reasonable to also pay $10K for something. It's like the gambler who loses his life savings but figures he had a good run because he made millions over the years. The same thing happened with comics in the 1980s. People were scooping up new issues every week and flipping them a month or two later for 3-5 times cover price only to turn around and spend that money on equaly overpriced comics being sold by other collectors or shops. The same thing happened in baseball cards in the 80s and action figures. There is zero chance something like that can last. For a collectible market to thrive, you need to have long term fundamentals like reasonable certainly about supply, consistent or measureable demand and a proximity of perceived value to market pricing. These are mass produced items, not unique pieces of art or even things manufactured fifty years ago before anyone had any conception of collecting pop culture items. Paying thousands or even tens of thousands of dollars for a video game which is not unique in any way is not something that is tied to real market conditions. I'm not saying you can't make money flipping games, obviously you and a number of other people do. All I'm saying is that if you're planning on retiring on your collection, you're probably in for a real shock down the road.

I also disagree that grading is "vastly embraced". If you look at sealed VGA auctions, it's always a matter of several dozen of the same people bidding on every item. It's the same people who hang out on the sealed game forum and Nintendoage. You certainly don't see many sealed Atari collectors or even that many sealed disc based collectors embracing VGA, it's almost all NES people. It's also not like hundreds of new VGA collectors are entering the market every day and VGA graded games are still only a very tiny proportion of all Ebay sealed video game auctions and a miniscule proportion of all game auctions period.

You're right, it is long-term collectors who don't embrace VGA. It's because we've been around long enough to understand the makings of a bubble and that things go up and down over time. Newer collectors come and go and ultimately, they overpay for stuff and end up getting burned when real life catches up and their credit card is maxed out and all they have is a small stack of games encased in plastic which are worth less than what they overpaid for them. How many 1980s comic collectors do you think have been able to take an early retirement by selling their collection? I sure don't know any, of course I was collecting 1960s comics in the 1980s, so while I'm not rich as a result, I certainly have a very nice collection that is also stable or growing in value over time.


1) People are definitely limited by money, and obviously everyone won't go after the highest grade possible. However, everyone certainly sets a floor of what is acceptable. In terms of VGA, many people are setting the floor at 85+, which is the bare minimum for Gold Level. Even such, when you are talking about the highest confirmed grade, you only need two people that want it badly, to send the price out of control. Or as we're seeing with these Black Box sales, all you need to do is name your price, and then one person may bite.

And sealed is of course an acquired taste for most people... as I started out primarily a CIB guy. I still am a CIB guy, but go sealed on my favorites or when I find a bargain.

2) Population reports are always accurate as they state exactly what is graded right now. It is up to you as a collector to determine if it's an abundant game and the highest confirmed grade means much. Highest confirmed grade on Win Lose or Draw is obviously not as meaningful as highest confirmed grade on Donkey Kong Math.

As far as grading being embraced, it is vastly more accepted now than several years ago. I know because I was a VGA basher myself. You must also remember that is is more than just grading, it is authentication. It has already saved me from owning a Mega Man 1 NES reseal, Halo First print reseal, and a Legend of Zelda Wind Waker reseal. As you get new guys coming into this hobby with untrained eyes, it is very realistic to think that they would want VGA items to eliminate the real vs reseal headaches. Most of VGA critics are old-timers like yourself, while newcomers welcome it with open arms. And guess which one drives values in the hobby? New guys.

3) You don't have to make $10k income to have a $10k game. All you have to find is a Mint game that grades well, near the top of the population report, and you'll be rewarded generously. You get a few thousand and wow, now you're a buyer of something you couldn't afford. There's no investment at all, you just need a good VGA eye. You can buy a game at an all-time high today, but if it grades MINT at the top of the population report, you'll have INSANE offers coming your way. You won't believe it until you see it and do it yourself. I see it happen all the time... I know of a Zelda OOT V-Seam that sold on ebay for $700, graded 90, and that guy has already declined offers of very close to $10k.

And the best (or worst) part of these VGA sales, is that the money gets reciculated into the hobby, driving values farther. If someone sells a game for $20k, what do you think they do with that money? Use it to buy other wants of course (and maybe save some or spend some on other life expenses). That recirculation of the money puts more and more money into the hobby, and drives values even higher.

"Investments" apply to items you have to buy and hold, like a rare cart or rare CIB. It's a brutal reality, but if you have a VGA eye, there is no waiting. It really is as simple as buy Mint ungraded, grade at a high level, and profit thousands of dollars. Believe me, I agree that these valuations are absurd as well (I've still never spent over $600 for any one sealed game), but I'm at least smart enough to use the system to my advantage. I won't pay those values, but I sure as hell will take it if someone wants to buy something off me. Still prefer to trade though...

[Buyatari]

All you are talking about is a self-contained bubble, not a true market. You're essentially just moving the decimal point in your head reasoning that because you sold something for $10K, it makes it reasonable to also pay $10K for something. It's like the gambler who loses his life savings but figures he had a good run because he made millions over the years. The same thing happened with comics in the 1980s. People were scooping up new issues every week and flipping them a month or two later for 3-5 times cover price only to turn around and spend that money on equaly overpriced comics being sold by other collectors or shops. The same thing happened in baseball cards in the 80s and action figures. There is zero chance something like that can last. For a collectible market to thrive, you need to have long term fundamentals like reasonable certainly about supply, consistent or measureable demand and a proximity of perceived value to market pricing. These are mass produced items, not unique pieces of art or even things manufactured fifty years ago before anyone had any conception of collecting pop culture items. Paying thousands or even tens of thousands of dollars for a video game which is not unique in any way is not something that is tied to real market conditions. I'm not saying you can't make money flipping games, obviously you and a number of other people do. All I'm saying is that if you're planning on retiring on your collection, you're probably in for a real shock down the road.

I also disagree that grading is "vastly embraced". If you look at sealed VGA auctions, it's always a matter of several dozen of the same people bidding on every item. It's the same people who hang out on the sealed game forum and Nintendoage. You certainly don't see many sealed Atari collectors or even that many sealed disc based collectors embracing VGA, it's almost all NES people. It's also not like hundreds of new VGA collectors are entering the market every day and VGA graded games are still only a very tiny proportion of all Ebay sealed video game auctions and a miniscule proportion of all game auctions period.

You're right, it is long-term collectors who don't embrace VGA. It's because we've been around long enough to understand the makings of a bubble and that things go up and down over time. Newer collectors come and go and ultimately, they overpay for stuff and end up getting burned when real life catches up and their credit card is maxed out and all they have is a small stack of games encased in plastic which are worth less than what they overpaid for them. How many 1980s comic collectors do you think have been able to take an early retirement by selling their collection? I sure don't know any, of course I was collecting 1960s comics in the 1980s, so while I'm not rich as a result, I certainly have a very nice collection that is also stable or growing in value over time.

You can't compare 1980's videogames to 1980's comic books or baseball cards. In 1985 how long had videogames been around compared to how long comics had been around at that point?

You are comparing comic books which sold for $1.00 brand new by the tens and hundreds of thousands to collectors who instantly placed them in protective sleeves to videogames that sold for $40 or $50 to people who planned to throw away the boxes and play the games. No one bought Donkey Kong Junior Math and stored it away new as an investment. The ones that did survive new and sealed (we are talking about less than 5 known Dk Jr math sealed copies) did so only on accident. Will more turn up? Sure over time more will turn up. Thousands? tens of thousands? hundreds of thousands? umm no. The demand for this title will eat up any supply that is found. You won't find thousands of copies of this title new and sealed, ever.

You are trying to personalize this. You don't have the mindset or even know any of the people who have spent 5k or 10k for a single sealed Nintendo game. Not knowing them or not understanding them doesn't mean someone else won't pay those prices because you don't think it is sane. It doesn't work that way. I'm telling you it is my opinion that not only is not going to go away but that it will get worse because we are starting to see people like ex-comic collectors jump into this game now as well. They love the grading system and they are attracted to the big dollar signs and huge increases. To them and yes I have heard them say this, they are getting on at the ground floor and they have tons of cash to dump into this. They are used to comic book prices afterall where the holy grail of the hobby isn't 20-30k but a million plus.

[Bojay1997]

Sure you can. Look at all the people scooping up collector's editions and "limited editions" and even just plain old current generation games and keeping them sealed or even having them graded. I was collecting comics for most of the 80s and that's exactly the same thing other collectors were doing with the exception of the grading back then. People were literally walking into the comic store on new release day and buying up multiple copies of every new release and every "limited edition" cover or variant and immediately sealing them up and boxing them and then waiting for the next price guide update so they could cash in. Yes, the cost of a video game is higher, but I knew plenty of people spending $50 or more a week on new comics in the 80s which is the same as $100 a week in 2012 dollars or about two new games. I'm not seeing much difference. It also seems like many more people have access to credit cards nowadays and certainly aren't afraid to rack up massive debts in support of their collecting.

You're right, there probably aren't thousands of copies of most of the early NES titles out there. Of course, there also aren't thousands of collectors looking for them. Most collectors here and elsewhere are perfectly happy with a loose copy or a complete copy or even a minty boxed complete copy. While it only takes two people to run a price up, you can never depend on those two people showing up at any given moment.

Your scenario about these alleged comic collectors looking to spend millions on games is cute, but it's not based in reality. For a totally disinterested collector to walk in and buy games as a pure speculator is far too risky. After all, if what you're claiming is accurate, what would be the potential financial benefit of scooping up what amounts to a tiny handful of games and trying to sell them for premium prices? You can't make millions off just five copies of something regardless of how rare it might be in sealed condition if it's a mass produced item that is available in substantially similar condition (i.e. mint, complete, boxed, etc...) for next to nothing.

You also have the added problem that a lot of collectors collect games because they can play them. It's not like a baseball card or coin where you can see everything the item has to offer even in a sealed case. Batteries can leak, metal can corrode, boxes can get moldy or brown, plastic shrinks and gets brittle and as I noted earlier, video games of the cartridge variety are a really volatile mix of all sorts of reactive materials that can't possibly remain stable over time. Is anyone really going to pay millions for something that won't be around in 75-100 years?

Continuing on your point, what guarantee would these alleged buyers have that another equally wealthy buyer would not only pay more than what they paid for something, but would do so right at the time they are looking to sell? You certainly aren't going to find enough buyers in the current crop of collectors who will spend tens of thousands of dollars on a single game, especially if there is no guarantee they can sell it for more when they move on. While the prices are interesting and generate discussion, they aren't really a reflection of the actual value these games will have over time. The only way to predict that future is to wait it out and see what happens when the NES generation ages just like the 2600 generation did. I'm certainly curious to see how the next few years play out and it seems like the wise path would be to wait and see rather than joining the speculation and risking huge financial losses.

Frankly, this really isn't that personal for me. If anything, I have a huge potential financial upside if your predictions are correct. I have hundreds of mint sealed NES games including a number of black box titles. I also have a lot of disposable income. It doesn't change the fact that I come to collecting with experience, wisdom and common sense. A sealed NES game is not worth tens of thousands of dollars as long as there are readily available copies of the same game simply missing a piece of shrinkwrap that can't be maintained in pristine condition no matter how hard you try 20 years from now (i.e. 50 years after these games were packaged). Comic books and other paper collectibles can be preserved for potentially hundreds of years given proper archival practices, there is no such means of doing so for video games, especially if you're keeping them in a regular suburban home or storage unit.


You can't compare 1980's videogames to 1980's comic books or baseball cards. In 1985 how long had videogames been around compared to how long comics had been around at that point?

You are comparing comic books which sold for $1.00 brand new by the tens and hundreds of thousands to collectors who instantly placed them in protective sleeves to videogames that sold for $40 or $50 to people who planned to throw away the boxes and play the games. No one bought Donkey Kong Junior Math and stored it away new as an investment. The ones that did survive new and sealed (we are talking about less than 5 known Dk Jr math sealed copies) did so only on accident. Will more turn up? Sure over time more will turn up. Thousands? tens of thousands? hundreds of thousands? umm no. The demand for this title will eat up any supply that is found. You won't find thousands of copies of this title new and sealed, ever.

You are trying to personalize this. You don't have the mindset or even know any of the people who have spent 5k or 10k for a single sealed Nintendo game. Not knowing them or not understanding them doesn't mean someone else won't pay those prices because you don't think it is sane. It doesn't work that way. I'm telling you it is my opinion that not only is not going to go away but that it will get worse because we are starting to see people like ex-comic collectors jump into this game now as well. They love the grading system and they are attracted to the big dollar signs and huge increases. To them and yes I have heard them say this, they are getting on at the ground floor and they have tons of cash to dump into this. They are used to comic book prices afterall where the holy grail of the hobby isn't 20-30k but a million plus.

[Buyatari]

Sure you can. Look at all the people scooping up collector's editions and "limited editions" and even just plain old current generation games and keeping them sealed or even having them graded. I was collecting comics for most of the 80s and that's exactly the same thing other collectors were doing with the exception of the grading back then. People were literally walking into the comic store on new release day and buying up multiple copies of every new release and every "limited edition" cover or variant and immediately sealing them up and boxing them and then waiting for the next price guide update so they could cash in. Yes, the cost of a video game is higher, but I knew plenty of people spending $50 or more a week on new comics in the 80s which is the same as $100 a week in 2012 dollars or about two new games. I'm not seeing much difference. It also seems like many more people have access to credit cards nowadays and certainly aren't afraid to rack up massive debts in support of their collecting.

You're right, there probably aren't thousands of copies of most of the early NES titles out there. Of course, there also aren't thousands of collectors looking for them. Most collectors here and elsewhere are perfectly happy with a loose copy or a complete copy or even a minty boxed complete copy. While it only takes two people to run a price up, you can never depend on those two people showing up at any given moment.

Your scenario about these alleged comic collectors looking to spend millions on games is cute, but it's not based in reality. For a totally disinterested collector to walk in and buy games as a pure speculator is far too risky. After all, if what you're claiming is accurate, what would be the potential financial benefit of scooping up what amounts to a tiny handful of games and trying to sell them for premium prices? You can't make millions off just five copies of something regardless of how rare it might be in sealed condition if it's a mass produced item that is available in substantially similar condition (i.e. mint, complete, boxed, etc...) for next to nothing.

You also have the added problem that a lot of collectors collect games because they can play them. It's not like a baseball card or coin where you can see everything the item has to offer even in a sealed case. Batteries can leak, metal can corrode, boxes can get moldy or brown, plastic shrinks and gets brittle and as I noted earlier, video games of the cartridge variety are a really volatile mix of all sorts of reactive materials that can't possibly remain stable over time. Is anyone really going to pay millions for something that won't be around in 75-100 years?

Continuing on your point, what guarantee would these alleged buyers have that another equally wealthy buyer would not only pay more than what they paid for something, but would do so right at the time they are looking to sell? You certainly aren't going to find enough buyers in the current crop of collectors who will spend tens of thousands of dollars on a single game, especially if there is no guarantee they can sell it for more when they move on. While the prices are interesting and generate discussion, they aren't really a reflection of the actual value these games will have over time. The only way to predict that future is to wait it out and see what happens when the NES generation ages just like the 2600 generation did. I'm certainly curious to see how the next few years play out and it seems like the wise path would be to wait and see rather than joining the speculation and risking huge financial losses.

Frankly, this really isn't that personal for me. If anything, I have a huge potential financial upside if your predictions are correct. I have hundreds of mint sealed NES games including a number of black box titles. I also have a lot of disposable income. It doesn't change the fact that I come to collecting with experience, wisdom and common sense. A sealed NES game is not worth tens of thousands of dollars as long as there are readily available copies of the same game simply missing a piece of shrinkwrap that can't be maintained in pristine condition no matter how hard you try 20 years from now (i.e. 50 years after these games were packaged). Comic books and other paper collectibles can be preserved for potentially hundreds of years given proper archival practices, there is no such means of doing so for video games, especially if you're keeping them in a regular suburban home or storage unit.


You are basing all your arguments on everything making sense to you or on how you think things should be.

I am basing mine on what buyers and sellers of the these games at 5k and 10k are telling me.

If you don't believe it is here to stay and you have sealed blackbox Donkey Kong and Mario titles to sell send me a pm.

[Bojay1997]

You are basing all your arguments on everything making sense to you or on how you think things should be.

I am basing mine on what buyers and sellers of the these games at 5k and 10k are telling me.

If you don't believe it is here to stay and you have sealed blackbox Donkey Kong and Mario titles to sell send me a pm.

Of course I am, just like you are arguing from what makes sense to you and how you think things should be. The difference is that you are actively involved in trying to profit from this alleged surge in prices and as far as I can tell, your only motive in posting this is to create some kind of self-fulfilling prophecy so you can make more money. I'm not somebody that resells and certainly the few times I have sold things over the years, it's only been because I had extras of something and even then, it was about clearing space and not because I was looking to cash in. Like most collectors here, I have given away far more than I have ever sold. The thing is, I make a very comfortable living, so I have zero interest in selling my collection regardless of how successful you are in getting people to buy into this surge in value fantasy. Hey, maybe you'll succeed and you can kill game collecting once and for all by making it into some ultra-exclusive club where only the super wealthy can hope to find anything interesting or special. Good luck with that.

[Buyatari]

Of course I am, just like you are arguing from what makes sense to you and how you think things should be. The difference is that you are actively involved in trying to profit from this alleged surge in prices and as far as I can tell, your only motive in posting this is to create some kind of self-fulfilling prophecy so you can make more money. I'm not somebody that resells and certainly the few times I have sold things over the years, it's only been because I had extras of something and even then, it was about clearing space and not because I was looking to cash in. Like most collectors here, I have given away far more than I have ever sold. The thing is, I make a very comfortable living, so I have zero interest in selling my collection regardless of how successful you are in getting people to buy into this surge in value fantasy. Hey, maybe you'll succeed and you can kill game collecting once and for all by making it into some ultra-exclusive club where only the super wealthy can hope to find anything interesting or special. Good luck with that.

I am not arguing how I think they should be but I how I presently see them to be.

Not sure what you mean about the rest. I would have loved to have picked them up and have tried for many years now but they are insanely rare and I got in too late.

I have some black box games but just the common ones really.

[Buyatari]

Possible new record here as it was purchased by the main buyer who has been buying up many of the high dollar black box games



Super Mario Bros. brothers NES Nintendo Brand new VGA 90+ sealed
Sold For: US $50,000.00

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=230788562126

I wonder how much it actually sold for?

[Braveheart69]

What a fun read. Glad to see Port is full of shit as usual and wrong as always. Some things never change. :)
I've never cared less what anyone else collects or how or why, to each their own. Flattering that you continue to be so obsessed with me and my wallet Dave.

[Mario's Right Nut]

I'll collect as I see fit. You do as you see fit. Just be sure that you keep badmouthing us where we won't see it! That's important.

Stay classy Port! Your envy makes me feel sexy.

[portnoyd]

I like how it takes a necro-bump from buyatari for these two to respond. Then again, it was a thread of Jonebone and Nolan Twins slapping each other for me to see that this thread actually made some NA stock come out of their comfort zone. It's not top 20 list, but it'll do.


What a fun read. Glad to see Port is full of shit as usual and wrong as always. Some things never change. :)
I've never cared less what anyone else collects or how or why, to each their own. Flattering that you continue to be so obsessed with me and my wallet Dave.

Wow, so I post evidence and links of your activity and you respond 'lol, you're wrong', not even acknowledging any evidence presented. Awesome response - both completely devoid of substance and dismissive at the same time. A prominent mod on NA, folks. Quite a paragon of the community.


I'll collect as I see fit. You do as you see fit. Just be sure that you keep badmouthing us where we won't see it! That's important.

Stay classy Port! Your envy makes me feel sexy.

Sorry, I'm not one of your 'duders' that licks your fire red nuts when you overpay by 500% for something. You may have wanted to look at your buddy's post above, because you just said exactly what he did, which of course, was nothing.

Why did you two even post? Best reasoning is I hit the mark with Braveheart and he felt he had to 'defend' himself, lacking any real defense. No secret that the two moneybags are friendly (the rich tend towards the rich) so out comes the ginger to back up his friend, without backing him up at all.

You sure you two are in the financial sector? The way you guys act, you have trust fund kiddie written all over you.

[mrmark0673]

Then again, it was a thread of Jonebone and Nolan Twins slapping each other for me to see that this thread actually made some NA stock come out of their comfort zone.

We kissed and made up. All is good in NA land.

[jonebone]

Psssh... black boxes were so 3 months ago. It's all about prototypes now :)