VGA rated NWC Gold cart on eBay

[wiggyx]

Hope you didn't bet money, because it didn't sell.

I tried, but it didn't seem like he was confident enough to take me up on it :P

[Frankie_Says_Relax]

So, for those who buy/sell rare carts of this caliber, when an auction like this goes up with a price like this, and it ends up not selling, does it negatively affect the market value/perception of value the same way that a completed auction at a high price does?

[BeaglePuss]

So, for those who buy/sell rare carts of this caliber, when an auction like this goes up with a price like this, and it ends up not selling, does it negatively affect the market value/perception of value the same way that a completed auction at a high price does?

It shouldn't have much of an effect either way as it was listed just this one time unsuccessfully. It's when it gets listed over, and over, and over again that the perceived value starts taking a beating. The best example of this is when seller *Feedback* continually relisted his sealed copy of Stadium Events at foolishly high prices.

[bunnyboy]

If two people were each selling a gold NWC cart, and one of them doesn't boot, it would sell for less money. Significantly less, I'd be willing to bet. This is because it's less than whole. It's broken. It no longer fulfills it's function. End of story.
What happens when that broken NWC is fixed? The data was dumped long ago so nothing is lost when the cart dies. The original EPROM can be desoldered, reprogrammed, and then put back. Someone good at soldering can do that without anyone being able to tell.

Eventually all the NWCs, all protos, all repros, and almost all NES unlicensed games will be dead. How they are cared for makes little difference. Unless the carts are regularly dumped and verified nobody knows how many are already losing data.

[jonebone]

I tried, but it didn't seem like he was confident enough to take me up on it :P

Because you both apparently can't read.


If someone put an NWC Gold up for $27k in it's normal shell in Very Good cosmetic shape and with screenshots verifying it's working order, I'd bet money it sells.

I said IF someone put an NWC Gold up for sale without all of this display case nonsense, then it could probably sell for $27k. The price isn't bad, it's just that this display has obviously reduced the buyer pool.

[Bojay1997]

Because you both apparently can't read.



I said IF someone put an NWC Gold up for sale without all of this display case nonsense, then it could probably sell for $27k. The price isn't bad, it's just that this display has obviously reduced the buyer pool.

Has any Gold NWC ever sold for anywhere near that amount? I thought the highest previous confirmed sale was something like $17K. Are you assuming that the black box negotiate after the fact guy who has single handedly put those specific sealed games into the price stratosphere is interested in an NWC?

[Frankie_Says_Relax]

Because you both apparently can't read.



I said IF someone put an NWC Gold up for sale without all of this display case nonsense, then it could probably sell for $27k. The price isn't bad, it's just that this display has obviously reduced the buyer pool.

Yeah, sorry, second half of your statement is clear, I was just thrown/focusing on your general optimism in your opening statement.

[Bojay1997]

I guess we have different definitions of what's considered "released". I assumed you meant you sold a prototype of a game that had seen a regular retail release as opposed to a competition cartridge in a unique case. I could see how someone might be interested in owning that, although I still think $450 was high. Having said that, I agree with several other people who posted that they consider a game similar to a car or other collectible where its functional state provides a considerable proportion of the value even if the owner rarely or never uses it for its utilitarian purpose. I know I would never buy a game sealed or not that I knew wasn't working. If for no other reason, you never know who a future buyer of the game could be and what their intended use might be. I'm sure there are wealthy sealed buyers who open games and actually play them. As far as non-working prototypes, I found plenty of listings on various forums, but not much evidence they ever sold. I know having been here and Assembler for many years, non-working protos for which there is no hope of repair have always gone for small amounts of money. I wish I could poiht to a specific recent sale, but unfortunately most sellers delete their posts or never disclose final prices on things like that.


It was a Donkey Kong Competition prototype cart that was in a case similar to that of the SNES Campus Challenge. I was contacted by a member of Atari Age when the game wasn't even being advertised for sale. He must be a big fan of either Donkey Kong, SNES, prototypes, or comp carts. Whatever the reason, I wasn't about to turn down that type of money for a paperweight.

You mentioned in a previous post that you've seen non-working prototypes sell for next to nothing in the past. Do you happen to recall any of those sale or have any links to such sales? I'm just curious as I don't know of any such prototype sale in recent history, and I tend to be pretty active in those type of things.

[jonebone]

Has any Gold NWC ever sold for anywhere near that amount? I thought the highest previous confirmed sale was something like $17K. Are you assuming that the black box negotiate after the fact guy who has single handedly put those specific sealed games into the price stratosphere is interested in an NWC?

An outdated price point on a rare item that never changes hands is almost meaningless. It's good data to know, but will likely have little bearing on the outcome of a new sale.

I've noticed that NWC Grays have gone from $4k to $6k to probably $8k-$10k right now, if you get a nice conditioned copy. Obviously torn labels / worn copies would go less.

With the prices on almost anything "rare" for NES literally doubling or tripling within the past year or two, the NWC Gold is likely due for a jump.

But, this is all just my opinion. No, I do not have any sales data to reveal, and I'm sure buyers / sellers of these items want to keep it private for this exact reason. If word got out that someone paid $27k or whatever, then everyone instantly refers to it as worth $27k. If that $27k sale happens but is kept quiet, everyone continues to refer to it as worth $17k. See how it works?

[Bojay1997]

Yeah, that makes zero sense. To the buyer who has purchased something at $27K, it makes no sense not to publicize that price as they would want the market to see that as the new benchmark so when they go to sell it will go up from that point. Similarly, other sellers want to know what the market price is at any given point so they can price accordingly. Even the person who sold it shouldn't care if the final price is revelaed since they no longer own the item. The only people benefitted by hiding actual prices are speculators who want to generate so much hype that they pump values up quickly and make the maximum profit. If there really were NWC golds changing hands at above $17K, I'm pretty sure it would have come out by now.

Just because other rare sealed NES items have gone up in value doesn't mean the NWC stuff has as well. In fact, I would suspect most sealed NES collectors could care less about the NWC gold or gray since it was never a retail release and it was never sold sealed. That's not to say that it has no value, only that $17K is probably still around where it's at if you can even find a willing buyer and seller which is a very big if on both sides of the transaction.


An outdated price point on a rare item that never changes hands is almost meaningless. It's good data to know, but will likely have little bearing on the outcome of a new sale.

I've noticed that NWC Grays have gone from $4k to $6k to probably $8k-$10k right now, if you get a nice conditioned copy. Obviously torn labels / worn copies would go less.

With the prices on almost anything "rare" for NES literally doubling or tripling within the past year or two, the NWC Gold is likely due for a jump.

But, this is all just my opinion. No, I do not have any sales data to reveal, and I'm sure buyers / sellers of these items want to keep it private for this exact reason. If word got out that someone paid $27k or whatever, then everyone instantly refers to it as worth $27k. If that $27k sale happens but is kept quiet, everyone continues to refer to it as worth $17k. See how it works?

[Genjackson]

If you have the money to buy a game for $27k, why not just buy 2 working, and one non working cart, display the front and back of the working carts, gut the last one, and give me the shell. You'd have the same display and i'd have a NWC shell. Win win.

[DreamTR]

Gold NWCs have definitely changed hands for over 17K, I've been involved with two of those. The reasons the buyers don't want the prices revealed is because they just don't want people taking advantage of them as "having money" if they need other stuff and you can't blame them. Private sales = private transactions. I can understand the need for public but this game sells for more privately than publicly.

Earlyworm's gold NWC on ebay was probably hurt by this VGA setup more than anything. There are buyers looking for the cart right now but offers ranged from 17-28K but lots of stipulations come with that.

Gray NWCs under 10K are a buyer's dream these days. I can tell you I have 2 people interested in mine at 16K when they get the money together although my label is really nice. I don't really want to sell it but for that much money I will.

People are going to pay whatever they feel the game is worth and verification on these is important but there really has never been too many running auctions for NWCs in the grand scheme of things, a lot of these are private and I've sold 6 of these (one being a friend's) all privately and at the time the perceived value was well below what I was asking for it....

[jonebone]

Thanks Jason, I was wondering when you'd chime in. Considering he has been involved in more NWC transactions than anyone, hopefully the valuation argument can be laid to rest. $16k seems high for an NWC Gray, but if you're willing to wait for the right buyer, someone will probably come your way eventually.

As I said, $17k for a Gold seemed awfully cheap. It has nothing to do with sealed games, I'm talking about NES values in general. Samson cart only went from $125 to $300 in a year, Flintstones 2 cart only went from $250 to $500 in 6 months. You can look at other platforms where a MUSHA Genesis CIB went from $100 to $250 also. There is legitimate money coming into the hobby on anything rare.

If the NWC Gold was $17k a couple of years ago and still $17k today, red flags should be going off. There is no way that the rarest of all things rare stays the same in value while everything else is spiking. Anyone should be able to read that writing on the wall.

[Bojay1997]

While I have respect for Jason as a collector, I hardly think he's a neutral party in the valuation issue. I see this same thing come up all the time on NeoGeo.com as there is one moderator who also generated the price guide that constantly prices his stuff above what most people agree the fair value to be and well above his own price guide. He always points to the alleged secret transactions of high value cart sales as his excuse for why his asking prices are so high. Simply put, someone with a vested interest in maintaining or increasing the value of something they buy and sell is not a reliable source.

I understand that personal transactions may occur and I certainly understand people wanting to remain private, but there is no reason that the price something is sold for should remain a secret. It's not like the name of the buyer has to be revealed. Frankly, as much as people complain about Ebay, it remains the appropriate means of determining the fair market value of items over time as it's a regulated public marketplace and there isn't a whole lot of room for slippy valuations and alleged transactions.

On your other point, equating games in the hundreds of dollars with games in the tens of thousands of dollars is ridiculous. Lots of collectors can afford spending a few hundred dollars on something and many do. With new games retailing at $60 nowadays and the MSRP on collector's editions going for hundreds in some cases, it just isn't much of a stretch. Paying $17K for something that is uncertain to be able to be resold for that much quickly is a whole different thing. I'm not saying it can't or hasn't happened, but it takes a very specific kind of buyer and a willing seller, neither of which are necessarily common. As such, items at the higher end are always much slower to appreciate in value and in every collectible market are the first to be hit when the economy goes bad. It's like any other asset that just isn't very liquid or capable of ready valuation. I realize you're a newer collector, but I have been through this cycle many, many times not only in video games, but in other collectibles like comics and coins. Just because a particular market is hot doesn't mean the most expensive or rarest items will share that heat, especially if there aren't a mass of rich collectors actively seeking those items out.


Thanks Jason, I was wondering when you'd chime in. Considering he has been involved in more NWC transactions than anyone, hopefully the valuation argument can be laid to rest. $16k seems high for an NWC Gray, but if you're willing to wait for the right buyer, someone will probably come your way eventually.

As I said, $17k for a Gold seemed awfully cheap. It has nothing to do with sealed games, I'm talking about NES values in general. Samson cart only went from $125 to $300 in a year, Flintstones 2 cart only went from $250 to $500 in 6 months. You can look at other platforms where a MUSHA Genesis CIB went from $100 to $250 also. There is legitimate money coming into the hobby on anything rare.

If the NWC Gold was $17k a couple of years ago and still $17k today, red flags should be going off. There is no way that the rarest of all things rare stays the same in value while everything else is spiking. Anyone should be able to read that writing on the wall.

[Panzerfuzion]

WTH does this have to do with anything?

If you are worried about creepy go hang out in the Brony thread you won't have to go to another website. It is over here in the off topic section.

You're way to angry my friend, way to angry. I need you to start drinking kale shakes if you need the recipe PM me. Thx have a great day.

[jonebone]

Alright bojay we'll agree to disagree. I'm not "that" new, I got about 4 years of heavy buying / selling / pricing / collecting knowledge at this point, but new compared to you old-timers, yes. Also, I've collected Ripken cards on / off for about 15 years, so I do have some experience with analogies by comparison. Don't know much about coins / comics though.

Let me put it another way. If I had an opportunity to buy an NWC Gold at $17k, I'd really give it some thought. I'm pretty tight with my money though, and I would probably decide to just keep the cash, as that's a lot for a game. I'm not at the stage of collecting where I need a fire-proof safe for high end items, and if you have something like that, it should be safeguarded.

As far as pricing, things are usually kept on a need-to-know basis. Exactly two people need to know the value of an item, the buyer and the seller in a transaction. Everyone else is irrelevant. I don't reveal buying or selling data on my private transactions, and they are usually only a couple $100 dollars or $1,000 at most. I can certainly respect keeping $10,000+ transactions in private.

[DreamTR]

Yeah I mean, I definitely think there is a difference between perceived "market" value and that someone is willing to pay for something. I try and stretch the boundaries on things but on items like these "market value" can change pretty dramatically. It's precisely why people believed the Blockbuster Genesis cart was only worth $2000 for so many years, because the last public one sold 3+ years ago previously...

I definitely think 16K is more than the gray NWC is worth, but the buyer also has to wait for one to show up on a public auction site and sometimes that does not always go so well, better to not take your chances on something like that going towards a reputable dealer. It's exactly why car sales are different from "Dealer" to "private owner" as well.

I am certain the gold NWC would easily hit 20K on open market as there are buyers looking for it.

I do have a vested interest in these, yes, but I do admit I would charge "above" possible ebay value to eliminate any possibilities but again, we're questioning what the prices "might" reach when there are only a handful of buyers all competing with the same amount of money. Also, realize that payment plans help with these; I have been very open to those and you can always open the door for more buyers with that and it also changes the value...

I definitely believe that like many Sotheby's auctions for rare antiquities the buyer chooses to remain anonymous but the value is publicly displayed whereas in private sales the buyer doesn't want the "amount" known. Nothing wrong with that any of that in my opinion especially when it really shouldn't concern anyone else....

[wiggyx]

Because you both apparently can't read.

Yeah yeah yeah, details details.

[Jaruff]

I'm not too familiar with the VGA but couldn't the eventual buyer of this cart send it back to them, pay the grading fee, and have it reassembled and installed in a new case? The $100 or so is pocket change compared to the five figures being spent on the cart.

[rbudrick]

EEPROMS can be easily rewritten if there's data damage. The EEPROM isn't unuseable, just corrupted. Once rewritten (the ROM is freely available for this game), problem solved.

I worry more about bitrot for all the UN-backed up games out there.

-Rob

[BeaglePuss]

EEPROMS can be easily rewritten if there's data damage. The EEPROM isn't unuseable, just corrupted. Once rewritten (the ROM is freely available for this game), problem solved.

I worry more about bitrot for all the UN-backed up games out there.

-Rob
Yet another post incorrectly using EEPROM....

[mrmark0673]

I wish I could poiht to a specific recent sale, but unfortunately most sellers delete their posts or never disclose final prices on things like that.

Followed by...


Yeah, that makes zero sense. To the buyer who has purchased something at $27K, it makes no sense not to publicize that price as they would want the market to see that as the new benchmark so when they go to sell it will go up from that point. Similarly, other sellers want to know what the market price is at any given point so they can price accordingly. Even the person who sold it shouldn't care if the final price is revelaed since they no longer own the item.

And still later...


I understand that personal transactions may occur and I certainly understand people wanting to remain private, but there is no reason that the price something is sold for should remain a secret. It's not like the name of the buyer has to be revealed.

Seems logical enough...

[Bojay1997]

Wow, impressive use of selective quoting to take two completed unrelated arguments out of context. To clarify, "things like that" was a very specific reference to non-working prototypes. I'm not aware of too many situations where a seller of a non-working prototype does anything besides asking potential buyers to make an offer because the seller just assumes the item is pretty worthless and doesn't want to look like a fool setting some unrealistic price for an item that is very hard to sell even in the best of cases. In fact, I have yet to find an example on Assembler or Nintendoage or Atari Age of someone advertising a non-working prototype for sale with anything other than make an offer. As such, you're not going to see lasting price information because the post gets deleted and nobody ever thinks to ask or report what it sold for because few if any people care.

On very expensive items, there is no reason to hide the ball. I'm pretty sure you're one of the guys that is looking to pump prices on Nintendoage and you've been very cagey about what your items finally sold for, no doubt because you're looking to maximize your profit and not because buyers are asking you to protect the pricing information.


Followed by...



And still later...



Seems logical enough...

[Jaruff]

Wow, impressive use of selective quoting to take two completed unrelated arguments out of context. To clarify, "things like that" was a very specific reference to non-working prototypes. I'm not aware of too many situations where a seller of a non-working prototype does anything besides asking potential buyers to make an offer because the seller just assumes the item is pretty worthless and doesn't want to look like a fool setting some unrealistic price for an item that is very hard to sell even in the best of cases. In fact, I have yet to find an example on Assembler or Nintendoage or Atari Age of someone advertising a non-working prototype for sale with anything other than make an offer. As such, you're not going to see lasting price information because the post gets deleted and nobody ever thinks to ask or report what it sold for because few if any people care.

On very expensive items, there is no reason to hide the ball. I'm pretty sure you're one of the guys that is looking to pump prices on Nintendoage and you've been very cagey about what your items finally sold for, no doubt because you're looking to maximize your profit and not because buyers are asking you to protect the pricing information.

Sounds like a smart man to me. Private business transactions are private for a reason.

There are many valid reasons for "hiding the ball". From taxation concerns to privacy concerns, there are countless reasons why you would not advertise a high-dollar transaction of any kind. You're only thinking in the scope of the gaming market itself but there are real-world reasons for not disclosing exact or near exact numbers. I find it disturbing that you would automatically assume he's withholding pricing information to "maximize profits". Besides, even if that's the only reason, there's nothing wrong with that. It's smart business practice.

[Bojay1997]

Sounds like a smart man to me. Private business transactions are private for a reason.

There are many valid reasons for "hiding the ball". From taxation concerns to privacy concerns, there are countless reasons why you would not advertise a high-dollar transaction of any kind. You're only thinking in the scope of the gaming market itself but there are real-world reasons for not disclosing exact or near exact numbers. I find it disturbing that you would automatically assume he's withholding pricing information to "maximize profits". Besides, even if that's the only reason, there's nothing wrong with that. It's smart business practice.

Actually, as a collector and as a law abiding tax payer, there is something very wrong with that from my perspective. I hope you're not suggesting that it's ok to commit a felony by failing to report gain from video games sales, are you? On the general subject of maximizing profit, I have equally strong objections. It raises prices for everyone on the things most of us enjoy and collect. If you want to be in the video game resale business, by all means be my guest. But please stop using forums like this one to get free information and advice so you can maximize your profits. Stop going out and representing yourself as a collector and getting people who own rare items to sell them to you for next to nothing under the false pretense that you will preserve those items as opposed to flipping them for many times what you paid. Most importantly, stop spreading lies and misinformation about what things are worth on a forum so you can try to trick others into buying into your pricing theories.

[Buyatari]

Stop going out and representing yourself as a collector and getting people who own rare items to sell them to you for next to nothing under the false pretense that you will preserve those items as opposed to flipping them for many times what you paid. Most importantly, stop spreading lies and misinformation about what things are worth on a forum so you can try to trick others into buying into your pricing theories.

Yes, I agree. Let us stop speading lies and misinformation.

Who exactly in this thread are you talking about? Specifics would be great.

[BeaglePuss]

Yes, I agree. Let us stop speading lies and misinformation.

Who exactly in this thread are you talking about? Specifics would be great.

I too would like to know who is spreading all the lies and misinformation.

[Jaruff]

Actually, as a collector and as a law abiding tax payer, there is something very wrong with that from my perspective. I hope you're not suggesting that it's ok to commit a felony by failing to report gain from video games sales, are you? On the general subject of maximizing profit, I have equally strong objections. It raises prices for everyone on the things most of us enjoy and collect. If you want to be in the video game resale business, by all means be my guest. But please stop using forums like this one to get free information and advice so you can maximize your profits. Stop going out and representing yourself as a collector and getting people who own rare items to sell them to you for next to nothing under the false pretense that you will preserve those items as opposed to flipping them for many times what you paid. Most importantly, stop spreading lies and misinformation about what things are worth on a forum so you can try to trick others into buying into your pricing theories.

Why can't you be both?

Take me, for instance. I exclusively collect for Sega along with my vintage electronics collection. However, I would be an idiot to not maximize my profits on Nintendo merchandise so not only can I pay my bills, I can buy more items for my personal collection. I would be an idiot to turn down free, easy money. I would also be an idiot to not purchase any non-gaming item I know is worth money simply out of some "moral" pretext of selling an item for many more times is "wrong".

We live in a capitalist society. Prices are determined by the free will of individuals. Items are worth what people are willing to pay at the time of transaction. There's no "tricking" people into agreeing to "pricing theories". People pay the amounts they're willing to pay to have the item period. If you really want something, you overpay for it. If you want to maximize profits, you target clientele that is willing to overpay. It's simple economics.

You might have an ethical issue with someone like myself but it's very wrong to only assume that we're representation ourselves as "collectors" and we aren't actually collectors. You might have a problem with me using my collector knowledge to support myself and my gaming habit but it doesn't exclude me from being a collector. It's akin to insider information. Same goes for a guy like BeaglePuss and guys like him. How can anyone possibly be upset at him? He makes people happy by selling them rare prototypes, he's happy by making lucrative amounts of cash, and everyone wins. Everyone is happy ... but yourself and those that share your opinion. It's a bit selfish imo but everyone is entitled to their own opinions and that's the beauty of the world we live in.

[Jaruff]

I too would like to know who is spreading all the lies and misinformation.

You, of course. How dare you buy a spiffy new toilet with the blood money of the vintage gaming industry. How dare you sir.

[Bojay1997]

Everyone doesn't win and you are hurting the vast majority of the collecting community. Maybe I'm just old fashioned, but when I started collecting over 20 years ago, nobody was flipping games and nobody was trying to maximize their profit in the collecting community. Even five years ago, there was still a huge group of collectors who did it for the love of collecting and wanted to help other collectors find cool items at the lowest price possible. In fact, I would venture that this profiteering trend has been within the past couple of years, probably right around the time grading popped up and it seems to be driven by a small group of collectors who believe that only their personal wealth and collection matters and that the community is only here to provide them with information and tips and possibly a customer base. I don't buy into that.

On the occasions where I end up with extra copies of a game or consoles, I either sell them at cost or in many cases just charge exact postage or if they're local, give the items away. If people want to profiteer off of other collectors, that's their choice, but I'm not going to congratulate them for it or celebrate their ingenuity or even consider them to be collectors. It's not positive for other collectors because it results in higher prices and an inability of collectors to find items they may want at a reasonable price.

We can argue about this forever, but I am really tired of the now regular threads in the "What's It Worth" forum here and elsewhere with people saying things like "oh, I met this former programmer from X game company and I told him I was a collector and he gave me all these amazing games for almost nothing, so how much can I sell everthing for?". Do you really think the programmer gave you that stuff so you could immediately turn around and sell it or was he under the impression based on your conduct and claims that as a collector you cherished his items and intended to preserve them? To me that's a form of fraud and misrepresentation. It's one thing to go to thrifts or garage sales or swap meets where nobody cares if you're a collector or not and pricing has nothing to do with your status. It's a whole other thing to use your collector credentials to get access to items at minimal or no cost all the while knowing you are just going to use them for financial gain.



Why can't you be both?

Take me, for instance. I exclusively collect for Sega along with my vintage electronics collection. However, I would be an idiot to not maximize my profits on Nintendo merchandise so not only can I pay my bills, I can buy more items for my personal collection. I would be an idiot to turn down free, easy money. I would also be an idiot to not purchase any non-gaming item I know is worth money simply out of some "moral" pretext of selling an item for many more times is "wrong".

We live in a capitalist society. Prices are determined by the free will of individuals. Items are worth what people are willing to pay at the time of transaction. There's no "tricking" people into agreeing to "pricing theories". People pay the amounts they're willing to pay to have the item period. If you really want something, you overpay for it. If you want to maximize profits, you target clientele that is willing to overpay. It's simple economics.

You might have an ethical issue with someone like myself but it's very wrong to only assume that we're representation ourselves as "collectors" and we aren't actually collectors. You might have a problem with me using my collector knowledge to support myself and my gaming habit but it doesn't exclude me from being a collector. It's akin to insider information. Same goes for a guy like BeaglePuss and guys like him. How can anyone possibly be upset at him? He makes people happy by selling them rare prototypes, he's happy by making lucrative amounts of cash, and everyone wins. Everyone is happy ... but yourself and those that share your opinion. It's a bit selfish imo but everyone is entitled to their own opinions and that's the beauty of the world we live in.

[Panzerfuzion]

I too would like to know who is spreading all the lies and misinformation.

I believe the lies he is referring to are the ones about you and your brothers long time love affair. Those long hard sweaty training sessions at the local Pugilist club, watching your brother slowly undress while the sweat drips between his ass crack. The two of you reminiscing about bathroom remodels of the past, while he runs his hands down towards his crotchel region. He tells you about how exhilarating it is having the power he has on nintendoage. The ability to pick and choose who he bans "so I've once again volunteered to step up and sniff out all the dirtbags and scammers that have found their way into our tightly knit community." Yes i bet that "TIGHT" community feels so fucking good on his manhood.

Listen to this power
"If you're a friend of mine and you scam someone, you're going on this list.
If you scam someone that I hate, you're going on this list.
If you do something deceitful but then apologize, you're going on this list.
If you've scammed people on other boards, you're going on this list."

Oh yes spoken like a true hall monitor, how many times did your brother pin you up against the lockers and pull your pants down so you could feel his manhood? How many prostate orgasms did you have, I bet that Flintstones wasn't even sealed i bet you left a warm cream pie in there and sealed it back up before you shipped it you sick fuck. You and your brother should be ashamed of what you have done to this community neither one of you are collectors. You saw this world as a place to make money for your home remodels, once you're finished sucking this world dry of everything you can like a vampire you will be gone into the night but until then more home remodels await.

[BeaglePuss]

I am really tired of the now regular threads in the "What's It Worth" forum here and elsewhere with people saying things like "oh, I met this former programmer from X game company and I told him I was a collector and he gave me all these amazing games for almost nothing, so how much can I sell everthing for?".
I must have missed these. Do you have any links to these now regular threads?

[mrmark0673]

...Most importantly, stop spreading lies and misinformation...

Yeah, that's the WORST! So, I'll post some factual information that anyone on here can check for themselves for accuracy, and we'll see if you can do the same.


On the general subject of maximizing profit, I have equally strong objections. It raises prices for everyone on the things most of us enjoy and collect. If you want to be in the video game resale business, by all means be my guest. But please stop using forums like this one to get free information and advice so you can maximize your profits. Stop going out and representing yourself as a collector and getting people who own rare items to sell them to you for next to nothing under the false pretense that you will preserve those items as opposed to flipping them for many times what you paid.

Where to start? As far as "flipping" for a profit, Matt and I most certainly did with that sealed lot we purchased a little while back. The most notable of the lot was Flintstones 2, and you are correct in that we won't release the sales figure. We sold it to a good friend, Vito, and he has made it known publicly that he owns it. I'm not going to metion what he payed for it, though maybe he'd like to share.

As for giving back stuff at cost (especially when you have failed to give specific examples), let's talk about our proto collecting:

- Matt and I own well over 100 protos at this point. We have profited off of exactly 3 of them currently (Hoppin' Mad Kitty's Catch, and Beastball). For those who did not wish to purchased copies of the game, I released the ROM to the public so that they can still enjoy it.

- For giving back, let's talk actual examples of what we've done. Again, misinformation is a sin, so feel free to double check these facts anywhere else on the web:

Unreleased stuff:

Arcadia VI (NES): Purchased by Matt and I for $1,500. Released for free to everyone. You're welcome :)

Swamp Thing (Genesis): Purchased by Matt and I for around $800 (I think slightly more), released free to the public. again, you're welcome.

Dragon's Lair (Genesis): Purchased by Matt and I for $800, released to the public for free. Yet again, you're welcome.

USA Bowling (NES): Purchased by Matt and I for $500, released to the public for free. Yup, you're welcome.

You ever release anything to the community at the cost of thousands to yourself just because you want them to enjoy something with you? Seriously, one example would be super cool. I love protos, I love preservation, and I've never flipped them for a profit.

I think that is it for unreleased stuff that we released completely for free to anyone to dl, though we've dumped a ton of other released games as well. Looks like we paid about $3,600 for all of those. Anyone want to pay $750 shipped for the lot? No one? It looks as though we lost thousands in our "investment" for releasing these games. Doh!

As for our devilish price checks! Let's point to a recent one:

http://www.digitpress.com/forum/showthread.php?159664-NOS-Vectrex-dust-cover-and-other-rare-Vec-items

Bought a shit ton of awesome Vectrex stuff, asked about the price of two items, sold only one of the two, and kept all the rest. You caught us, dirty, lying, resellers! Oh, I forgot to mention. We also sold an item that we weren't looking to sell (the Vectrex Button) to a mod here. At what cost? Gasp! His initial offer without negotiating. How dare we!

Well, that's it for Matt's ONE AND ONLY thread started in What's it worth since 2009, so I guess you must mean me. Yup, I did have a thread 8 months ago that had something like that:

http://www.digitpress.com/forum/showthread.php?153293-Zelda-s-Adventure-CDI-Red-Demo-Disc-2-CDI-proto-controllers

Again, bought a massive lot and was looking for the value of a small handful of items. I did eventually sell off all my CD-i dev stuff...

Well over a year after I bought it. You see, sometimes you just run out of room and you end up selling items for different priorities.

Now, since I posted some examples instead of cryptic and vague posts, let me ask you some follow ups:

Where are these "Regular" threads in What's it Worth? Granted, I do indeed start a thread there once a year (check the math if you'd like), but I'd love to know what you see as regular.

Where is it that I used my street cred and massive e-peen to "get access to items at minimal or no cost all the while knowing you are just going to use them for financial gain."? Matt and I are guilty of buying a single lot of sealed games with the intentions of immediately reselling many of them, but we paid a very fair price. Don't believe us? Ask the seller. His info is in one of the many threads. He got a very nice chunk of change for games that he legitimately got for free.

I've given away doubles of games for free, even unique pieces. Rather than just say that and leave it, I can toss a couple off the top of my head out there:

Gave Qixmaster a prototype of Bad News Baseball free of charge
Gave Johnny a prototype of Toystory on the Genesis free of charge
Gave i2a2n2 a Dinosaur Planet Media binder free of charge
Gave someone a Cadillac and Dinosaurs Sega CD proto for free (can't remember who it was to be honest)

And that's just dev gear. You can hold a vendetta because the internet is serious business and all, but look at our feedback here or anywhere else. We pay top dollar for prototypes, more than almost anyone else is willing to pay. You can see this first hand in open EBay auctions that we've won. Ask anyone who has feedback with us if they felt we ever low balled, under payed, or were deceitful in any way. You won't find any. Sure, you have people that will attempt to troll us, but it's almost always people that I ended up exposing as a thief on NintendoAge.

As for not being a collector, that's silly. You don't have to respect my collection, or me, but you look foolish saying stuff like that.

[Buyatari]

Everyone doesn't win and you are hurting the vast majority of the collecting community. Maybe I'm just old fashioned, but when I started collecting over 20 years ago, nobody was flipping games and nobody was trying to maximize their profit in the collecting community. Even five years ago, there was still a huge group of collectors who did it for the love of collecting and wanted to help other collectors find cool items at the lowest price possible. In fact, I would venture that this profiteering trend has been within the past couple of years, probably right around the time grading popped up and it seems to be driven by a small group of collectors who believe that only their personal wealth and collection matters and that the community is only here to provide them with information and tips and possibly a customer base. I don't buy into that.

On the occasions where I end up with extra copies of a game or consoles, I either sell them at cost or in many cases just charge exact postage or if they're local, give the items away. If people want to profiteer off of other collectors, that's their choice, but I'm not going to congratulate them for it or celebrate their ingenuity or even consider them to be collectors. It's not positive for other collectors because it results in higher prices and an inability of collectors to find items they may want at a reasonable price.

We can argue about this forever, but I am really tired of the now regular threads in the "What's It Worth" forum here and elsewhere with people saying things like "oh, I met this former programmer from X game company and I told him I was a collector and he gave me all these amazing games for almost nothing, so how much can I sell everthing for?". Do you really think the programmer gave you that stuff so you could immediately turn around and sell it or was he under the impression based on your conduct and claims that as a collector you cherished his items and intended to preserve them? To me that's a form of fraud and misrepresentation. It's one thing to go to thrifts or garage sales or swap meets where nobody cares if you're a collector or not and pricing has nothing to do with your status. It's a whole other thing to use your collector credentials to get access to items at minimal or no cost all the while knowing you are just going to use them for financial gain.

I think you are out of touch and don't know what you are talking about. Some of the people who have posted in this thread have collected just as long as you have and have given away more than you will ever know. They don't brag about every thing or every dollar they donate but they have done so.

Telling someone an item is your holy grail and you just have to have it for your collection. Then asking them if they would you consider less etc all because you want to flip it and sell it right away is wrong. There was some of that over on Atariage by a well know reseller and that makes me sick as well. If someone here did that then let us hear about it. You make claims and then back it with sweeping general terms assuming much.

Prices have gone up in 20 years sorry. Not every collector is a museum who keeps every single item they run across till the end of time. Sometimes people switch gears or sell items in order to buy others. What would happen if an item goes down in value after 8-10 years. By your logic collectors should show their loyalty as a fellow collectors and pay what the first collector paid for it, right? No, because your rules only suit you as a buyer. You never sell anything so you say. If everyone else in the entire world would stop being so money hungry you can buy every game for cheap. You have a very egocentric point of view.

You have been collecting for 20+ years and never sell anything.... Seriously, how many more cheap games can you need? I would think at this point, that you would be like most other 20+ year collectors and have a major storage problem at this point.

[Bojay1997]

I must have missed these. Do you have any links to these now regular threads?

Here's one:

http://www.atariage.com/forums/topic/193533-rare-vectrex-price-check/

Did you pay the owner fair market value for those items or tell them you were planning on selling most of it for a large profit?

Weren't you also the guy who got a bunch of prototype and demo CD-i stuff from a former Philips employee and sold all of it within a month or two of getting it? Again, did you pay the guy fair market value or just a minimal amount which he was ok with because you told him you were a collector?

Do you need more examples or are you good?

[mrmark0673]

Here's one:

http://www.atariage.com/forums/topic/193533-rare-vectrex-price-check/

Did you pay the owner fair market value for those items or tell them you were planning on selling most of it for a large profit?

Weren't you also the guy who got a bunch of prototype and demo CD-i stuff from a former Philips employee and sold all of it within a month or two of getting it? Again, did you pay the guy fair market value or just a minimal amount which he was ok with because you told him you were a collector?

Do you need more examples or are you good?


I already addressed both of those. To reiterate:

- Matt has posted one thread in What's it Worth since 2009. After purchasing a massive lot of Vectrex items, he asked about 2, sold one, then gave a mod here a deal for an item he was interested in for his asking price. Kept everything else.

- Kept the CD-i stuff for months, paid his asking price, sold it months later because priorities changed. Most was sold at open auction starting at .99. Priorities change, and space is a premium.

[Bojay1997]

I think you are out of touch and don't know what you are talking about. Some of the people who have posted in this thread have collected just as long as you have and have given away more than you will ever know. They don't brag about every thing or every dollar they donate but they have done so.

Telling someone an item is your holy grail and you just have to have it for your collection. Then asking them if they would you consider less etc all because you want to flip it and sell it right away is wrong. There was some of that over on Atariage by a well know reseller and that makes me sick as well. If someone here did that then let us hear about it. You make claims and then back it with sweeping general terms assuming much.

Prices have gone up in 20 years sorry. Not every collector is a museum who keeps every single item they run across till the end of time. Sometimes people switch gears or sell items in order to buy others. What would happen if an item goes down in value after 8-10 years. By your logic collectors should show their loyalty as a fellow collectors and pay what the first collector paid for it, right? No, because your rules only suit you as a buyer. You never sell anything so you say. If everyone else in the entire world would stop being so money hungry you can buy every game for cheap. You have a very egocentric point of view.

You have been collecting for 20+ years and never sell anything.... Seriously, how many more cheap games can you need? I would think at this point, that you would be like most other 20+ year collectors and have a major storage problem at this point.

You're certainly entitled to your opinion. I also have no doubt that many collectors are generous and have done amazing selfless things for the community, certainly far in excess of anything I have ever done. That doesn't change the fact that if those same collectors are flipping and actively engaging in conduct with a goal of maximizing profit and increasing prices, they hurt all collectors.

You're right, prices do go up. They also go down. Prices increasing several hundred percent in a couple of years is not natural or normal appreciation. It's a sign that people are manipulating the market.

It's really not about my personal collection. I have completed most of my collecting goals long ago and I have more games than any person could ever play in a lifetime. That doesn't change the fact that I believe that this latest round of speculation and manipulation is unhealthy for all collectors. I have many collector friends who feel extremely frustrated with the current state of the hobby and frankly, I'm just echoing a lot of the sentiment I have heard over the past few years of attending collector meetings and conventions. Maybe you want our hobby to become just like comics or baseball cards in the 1980s, but personally, I like the more traditional way the hobby has been conducted. There was a time not so long ago that people were looking out for each other, selling things on forums at minimal mark-up or trading them rather than Ebaying in hopes of the big profit and frankly, collectors would go out of their way looking for things they want for their own collection or that they know fellow collectors need rather than looking for the most valuable things to flip. So yes, perhaps I am old fashioned, but I'm guessing I'm not alone in my negative feelings about how things are moving.

[Bojay1997]

I already addressed both of those. To reiterate:

- Matt has posted one thread in What's it Worth since 2009. After purchasing a massive lot of Vectrex items, he asked about 2, sold one, then gave a mod here a deal for an item he was interested in for his asking price. Kept everything else.

- Kept the CD-i stuff for months, paid his asking price, sold it months later because priorities changed. Most was sold at open auction starting at .99. Priorities change, and space is a premium.

Is "paid his asking price" code for neither of these suckers knew what they had and I didn't say anything about what the stuff was really worth, instead claiming to be a collector to earn their trust and get the lowest price possible? By the way, I just picked out a couple of threads where you guys were the ones asking. There are dozens and dozens more on this board and elsewhere from a small handful of collectors who seem to regularly make these "finds" only to very quickly flip them. It must be hard to live a life where your priorities change so quickly and regularly.

[Buyatari]

Is "paid his asking price" code for neither of these suckers knew what they had and I didn't say anything about what the stuff was really worth, instead claiming to be a collector to earn their trust and get the lowest price possible? By the way, I just picked out a couple of threads where you guys were the ones asking. There are dozens and dozens more on this board and elsewhere from a small handful of collectors who seem to regularly make these "finds" only to very quickly flip them. It must be hard to live a life where your priorities change so quickly and regularly.

This stuff SAT THERE for years. He sold to the first person who asked. If these "collectors" you speak of would get off their ass and look there are tons of deals to be found. I suppose the few that are motivated to look should leave any and all items they find that they are not currently looking for in their collections only to risk it being lost forever. Or instead pay the thousands in asking price and hope to one day break even on it. I can't tell you how many times I've contacted someone and they tell me "Ohh sorry man I threw a bunch of this stuff out last year" In the end these CDI protos ended up going to collectors. WIN WIN in my book.

If someone made a few bucks doing this I don't have a problem if he didn't lie to get them. The prices he was selling this stuff for seemed very reasonable to me. I'm sure that doesn't matter to you because he did profit in some way. If that is your case then you are aren't being reasonable. I'm sure he did cut people good deals and helped out other collectors who helped him out in the past.

Bottom line - The games sat for all this time and no one else asked him or THEY would have the discs. Where are these TRUE collectors?

[BeaglePuss]

Is "paid his asking price" code for neither of these suckers knew what they had and I didn't say anything about what the stuff was really worth, instead claiming to be a collector to earn their trust and get the lowest price possible? By the way, I just picked out a couple of threads where you guys were the ones asking. There are dozens and dozens more on this board and elsewhere from a small handful of collectors who seem to regularly make these "finds" only to very quickly flip them. It must be hard to live a life where your priorities change so quickly and regularly.

With the exception of the 3-D imager, I still own every item in that Vectrex lot. It wasn't bought from a developer, and it wasn't flipped for a profit. I paid large sums of money for both Vectrex lots I purchased.

Each one of the price check threads Mark linked to have post from you citing bullshit low prices with no source of reference, much like you have in this thread.

[Parodius Duh!]

I dont understand how anyone can even begin to bitch about the twins selling/Collecting habits. They have given back more than any other proto collectors out there and we would not be playing a whole bunch of rare and forgotten games if it wasnt for them! So they purchase a few rare items and resell it and make a profit. BIG DEAL, this happens everyday. If your so pissed about this then you might as well go bitch at your mechanic too, Im sure hes made a killing off of everyone in your community.

[mrmark0673]

By the way, I just picked out a couple of threads where you guys were the ones asking. There are dozens and dozens more on this board and elsewhere from a small handful of collectors who seem to regularly make these "finds" only to very quickly flip them. It must be hard to live a life where your priorities change so quickly and regularly.

By picked out a couple, you mean picked one. By picked one, I mean listed one I already linked to.

As for the dozens and dozens, how about 2 more in the last, I don't know, 2 years. That should be easy enough with "dozens and dozens" right?

Edit: Of course, I mean involving Matt or myself. Hell, how about even Adam or Jason since they're clearly villains as well.

CD-i wasn't my bag, but it was cool to meet with the former VP of Philips. Both were purchased locally on Craigslist. I know, I know, Craigslist is only know by a specific, elite circle of collectors who hang out on this very forum, so we had an unfair advantage, but we did indeed still pay their asking price.

As for "priorities change so quickly and regularly", please link to one (and I mean singular) lots aside the ones that I just mentioned that we purchased and flipped without keeping all/vast majority of the items.

Also, you never answered my question about the last time you spent thousands (with examples) of dollars and immediately gave it to this (or any) community to enjoy.

You jelly?

[Panzerfuzion]

I already addressed both of those. To reiterate:

- Kept the CD-i stuff for months, paid his asking price, sold it months later because priorities changed. Most was sold at open auction starting at .99. Priorities change, and space is a premium.

You mean your kitchen needed a remodel also? You 2 Ass-Hats have been exposed for the frauds you are. Take your act back to Nintendo age... Oh and tell dain i'm sure he took a lot of time thinking that name up very original.

Oh and to the rest of you watch out, we now have the The Brothers McMullen tag team in this thread. The epic duo is here to lay down there wrath of convincing the gaming community there actually collectors.

[Panzerfuzion]

I dont understand how anyone can even begin to bitch about the twins selling/Collecting habits. They have given back more than any other proto collectors out there and we would not be playing a whole bunch of rare and forgotten games if it wasnt for them! So they purchase a few rare items and resell it and make a profit. BIG DEAL, this happens everyday. If your so pissed about this then you might as well go bitch at your mechanic too, Im sure hes made a killing off of everyone in your community.

They've never "given back" they have made money off illegal reproductions.

[Panzerfuzion]

By picked out a couple, you mean picked one. By picked one, I mean listed one I already linked to.

As for the dozens and dozens, how about 2 more in the last, I don't know, 2 years. That should be easy enough with "dozens and dozens" right?

Edit: Of course, I mean involving Matt or myself. Hell, how about even Adam or Jason since they're clearly villains as well.

CD-i wasn't my bag, but it was cool to meet with the former VP of Philips. Both were purchased locally on Craigslist. I know, I know, Craigslist is only know by a specific, elite circle of collectors who hang out on this very forum, so we had an unfair advantage, but we did indeed still pay their asking price.

As for "priorities change so quickly and regularly", please link to one (and I mean singular) lots aside the ones that I just mentioned that we purchased and flipped without keeping all/vast majority of the items.

Also, you never answered my question about the last time you spent thousands (with examples) of dollars and immediately gave it to this (or any) community to enjoy.

You jelly?
http://images.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/9228361.jpg

[Parodius Duh!]

They've never "given back" they have made money off illegal reproductions.

Yeah they made a few repros as well as released all the roms of those repros for free, which mind you- something like Kittys Catch was developed by a single guy, so when they bought it basically they can do whatever they want with it. Theres so many people doing repros out there that yoiu have no right to single them out. Oh and lets not forget the prototype ROMs they have released and have not made repros of.....

Your argument is pointless. So every print of famous artworks must be illegal in your eyes too, hmm? Is a reproduction Fiberglass Shelby Cobra illegal to you?

[Panzerfuzion]

Yeah they made a few repros as well as released all the roms of those repros for free, which mind you- something like Kittys Catch was developed by a single guy, so when they bought it basically they can do whatever they want with it. Theres so many people doing repros out there that yoiu have no right to single them out. Oh and lets not forget the prototype ROMs they have released and have not made repros of.....

Your argument is pointless. So every print of famous artworks must be illegal in your eyes too, hmm? Is a reproduction Fiberglass Shelby Cobra illegal to you?

Why sell the horse when you can get the cock for free, you understand my child.

[Bojay1997]

Yeah they made a few repros as well as released all the roms of those repros for free, which mind you- something like Kittys Catch was developed by a single guy, so when they bought it basically they can do whatever they want with it. Theres so many people doing repros out there that yoiu have no right to single them out. Oh and lets not forget the prototype ROMs they have released and have not made repros of.....

Your argument is pointless. So every print of famous artworks must be illegal in your eyes too, hmm? Is a reproduction Fiberglass Shelby Cobra illegal to you?

Are we really going to have the absurd argument about prototypes being in the public domain again? I don't know anything about Kitty's Catch, so I can't speak to that, but anyone selling repros is engaged in a violation of copyright unless they have permission from the rights holders. Famous artwork that is not in the public domain (i.e. the only public domain artwork is generally from prior to 1923 for US artists and older for French artists and certain other countries except in those rare instances where an artist has released the work into the public domain) cannot be replicated or copied without being licensed. In fact, you can't use it in any commercial way without permission unless you want to get sued. There are some exceptions under fair use, but duplicating a piece of art for sale is not even close to fair use.

One of my first jobs in television was handling litigation on behalf of television producers who were being sued by artists and other rights holders for using their work allegedly without permission. It gets expensive to settle those claims and you would be surprised at how many shady print companies there are out there selling poster prints of artwork they have no right to sell or rent as television set decoration.

[Bojay1997]

It's interesting, I went back to the CD-i thread with Zelda's Adventure and I estimated over $100 based on an actual previous Ebay sale while you thought the estimate of $300-$500 was more accurate since the retail version always sells for over $300 despite the fact that you had nothing to back that up. You then only ended up getting $200 for this allegedly rarer version. So, what happened? Is it possible you were just flat out wrong about the value and were using the same fuzzy logic that results in estimates of $27K for a NWC Gold when the highest previous sale was $17K?

On the Vectrex imager, you were positive yours would sell for as much or more than the one that sold the week before on Ebay. As we both know, it clearly didn't. So again, do you really have a solid handle on pricing when your two major recent public sales have fallen well below your estimates?


With the exception of the 3-D imager, I still own every item in that Vectrex lot. It wasn't bought from a developer, and it wasn't flipped for a profit. I paid large sums of money for both Vectrex lots I purchased.

Each one of the price check threads Mark linked to have post from you citing bullshit low prices with no source of reference, much like you have in this thread.

[Panzerfuzion]

Thank you Bojay for your continued pursuit to expose the brothers mcmullen.

[tom]

I do my own VGA rating, if it works on my PC, it's VGA.

[mrmark0673]

It's interesting, I went back to the CD-i thread with Zelda's Adventure and I estimated over $100 based on an actual previous Ebay sale while you thought the estimate of $300-$500 was more accurate since the retail version always sells for over $300 despite the fact that you had nothing to back that up.

swlovinist estimated $300-$500, and at no point did I respond to it in any way. Please show me where I believed it to be "more accurate?"

Also, I never said they always sell for $300, I said they sell upwards of $300. As in, there are past sales in excess of $300. Please show me where I even infer that it always sells for more than $300




So, what happened?

Glad you asked! In the thread, You responded with the outcome, and I did as well. For those playing at home, here is the exact quotes:


Looks like the red disc Zelda's Adventure went for $200. Not bad, but not crazy either.


Yeah, I wasn't going to get greedy with it, and the buyer is a huge Zelda collector. I'm sure I could have gotten more with a counter offer, but I'm happy with the results :)


GRRRRR!!! What an evil reseller! I settled for a lower amount than what I had hoped (not expected) because I didn't want to be greedy and was happy to help out a Zelda collector. What a terrible way to go about transactions!



Is it possible you were just flat out wrong about the value and were using the same fuzzy logic that results in estimates of $27K for a NWC Gold when the highest previous sale was $17K?

What do others' estimates of the NWC have anything to do with actual sales transactions that I have completed? I never estimated the value of this (or any) NWC, so what are you even talking about? I linked to two of the only price checks we've done in the last 2 years (collectively), both of which you posted in, one of which you estimated 100% below the final sales price, the other of which you estimated approximately 100% lower than the final sales price. Those are objective, anyone can just click and read.


On the Vectrex imager, you were positive yours would sell for as much or more than the one that sold the week before on Ebay. As we both know, it clearly didn't.

At no point did we EVER mention that we were "positive (y)ours would sell for as much or more than the one that sold the week before", we never even mentioned a comparison. I posted a completed auction for other members to look at so if they were looking to sell their own in a similar condition, they would have a recent benchmark instead of lowball (as evidence by the most recent sales) speculation. You tried to call the feedback of that sale into question, clearly to save face over your absurdly low estimate, then I followed with another sale (this time of my own) that was roughly twice your estimate.


So again, do you really have a solid handle on pricing when your two major recent public sales have fallen well below your estimates?

In neither thread do Matt and I make a single estimate. Seriously, copy a quote where we estimate the value of either. Your estimates, however, were 100% lower than the actual sales price, and over 100% on the low end, just under 100% lower on the high, for both estimates you made.

You mad?

[Panzerfuzion]

You mad?

Are you mad you were born with a midgets pinky where your cock is supposed to be.

[Mayhem]

Guess I missed the fun here today. Gonna recommend locking this one down before it goes any further. Consider some of the tone inappropriate here, especially PanzerFuzion...

[Bojay1997]

You mad?

Only that you are selectively leaving out my very accurate description of the market for Zelda's Adventure. I guess you couldn't be bothered to scroll down a few more posts in the chain when I said:

"Wow, Zelda's Adventure has popped up in value lately. For most of 2010, it was going for $150-$200 mint complete and slightly more sealed. I just looked at a couple recent auctions and one complete copy went for $300 and another went for $400. Having said that, I think there may be a misunderstanding among non-CD-i collectors about what these red and white discs are. They are simply store and review demo discs and Philips pressed them by the truckload. I know I have several copies of Zelda's Adventure in both the red and white versions, a European version with a different font as well as several test disc versions. I suspect you will get more from non-CD-i collectors than CD-i collectors on that particular disc. I also suspect this won't go for more than a hundred or two, but I could be wrong given that I haven't seen a copy of the red disc version sell on Ebay in an open auction in the past couple of years. One was listed for $1K for a long while and just ended with a side deal a couple weeks ago. Another sold in a similar way a month or two before. Who knows what those sellers got for them."

I believe in line six I estimate the game would sell for a hundred or two. Look at that, it sold for $200. Guess I was actually spot on.

As for the Vectrex stuff, I simply stated that the last few open auctions had ended at anywhere from $400-$600 in similar condition. Obviously, the one that sold the week before yours went for $1300. Of course, you ended up selling yours for $950 to someone who had bid far more on the first auction. That would lead me to believe that again, trying to estimate actual value based on one sale is just not accurate and stuff doesn't always go up with each sale. So, yes, I'll concede that you sold your item for more than previous auctions I had observed or slightly over 50% more than my estimate. I guess you really showed me.

Until I saw the other posts, I forgot you were part of the infamous duo who side dealed that sealed NES game lot and sold unauthorized copies of copyrighted work to pay for your proto habit. Please let me know when I should stand and slowly applaud all your tremendous contributions to your fellow collectors.

[wiggyx]

Bicker bicker bicker. All this hair splitting over a non-issue. Tale it to pm. None of us need to hear this.


Guess I missed the fun here today. Gonna recommend locking this one down before it goes any further. Consider some of the tone inappropriate here, especially PanzerFuzion...

Instead I would suggest that people like panzer who who seem to think trolling is a competitive sport receive infractions or a vacation. You don't throw away an entire carton of eggs just because of a couple of broken shells...

[mrmark0673]

I believe in line six I estimate the game would sell for a hundred or two. Look at that, it sold for $200. Guess I was actually spot on.

My mistake, you are correct. I hadn't realized you had made a second estimate, you're absolutely right in that regard.


So, yes, I'll concede that you sold your item for more than previous auctions I had observed or slightly over 50% more than my estimate. I guess you really showed me.

See, that's not really true. You estimated the value of it to be between $400-$600. On the low end, you were over 135% off, on the high, over 50% off. You can skew it any way you'd like, but the numbers are there.

And to the other points?

Where do I ever say they always sell for over $300?
Where do we ever say we're positive our Imager would sell more than the previous?
Where did we estimate the value of either of those items?

I'm not asking you to applaud anything, but we've done plenty for the classic gaming community over the years and I've given you actually examples. You can ignore it, others appreciate it. What have you done lately?

[Panzerfuzion]

My mistake, you are correct. I hadn't realized you had made a second estimate, you're absolutely right in that regard.



See, that's not really true. You estimated the value of it to be between $400-$600. On the low end, you were over 135% off, on the high, over 50% off. You can skew it any way you'd like, but the numbers are there.

And to the other points?

Where do I ever say they always sell for over $300?
Where do we ever say we're positive our Imager would sell more than the previous?
Where did we estimate the value of either of those items?

I'm not asking you to applaud anything, but we've done plenty for the classic gaming community over the years and I've given you actually examples. You can ignore it, others appreciate it. What have you done lately?

Yea you've raped it like you were just recently paroled, face it the only reason why anyone acts like they like you two douche bags is because you've someone how gotten into bed with the guy that runs one of the major collecting sites. If that fact were null you would have quite a few more people calling you and your boyfriend out.

You Mad?

[Panzerfuzion]

Bicker bicker bicker. All this hair splitting over a non-issue. Tale it to pm. None of us need to hear this.



Instead I would suggest that people like panzer who who seem to think trolling is a competitive sport receive infractions or a vacation. You don't throw away an entire carton of eggs just because of a couple of broken shells...

How is your personal quest on the recent discovery of your homosexuality going? Have you been remembering to stay protected?

[Bojay1997]

See, that's not really true. You estimated the value of it to be between $400-$600. On the low end, you were over 135% off, on the high, over 50% off. You can skew it any way you'd like, but the numbers are there.

And to the other points?

Where do I ever say they always sell for over $300?

Where do we ever say we're positive our Imager would sell more than the previous?
Where did we estimate the value of either of those items?

I'm not asking you to applaud anything, but we've done plenty for the classic gaming community over the years and I've given you actually examples. You can ignore it, others appreciate it. What have you done lately?

I'm not trying to skew anything. I provided a range based on previous observations of actual Ebay auctions. Another collector provided a lower estimate. You had an idea of what you thought it was worth by posting a comparable recent auction and it turns out none of us were correct. I will happily concede that $950 is closer to $1300 than $400 or $600, but it's still over 30% less than a virtually identical auction just one week prior, so I suppose it's just more support as I said for the idea that prices can vary week to week or item to item or auction to auction. It also supports the contention that just because something sells for a price once is no guarantee it will sell for that price a second time, even if some of the same bidders are involved.

On the other points, you're right, you didn't use the word "always". You said this:

"Just over $100? I'd sooner use it as a coaster than sell it for that. Is that what they've sold for historically? Was it a red disc or white? Retail copies sell upwards of $300, I was hoping for significantly more. "

The statement "retail copies sell upwards of $300" seems pretty absolute to me. No range or anything, just a statement that they sell for upwards of $300 and you wanted more than that. It also seems like an estimate of the price to me. You didn't specifically say it's worth "X", but you did set the floor at $300 since that's what an ordinary and far less rare retail copy goes for.

On the Vectrex stuff, you're right, I overstated what you said. You simply posted the first auction as a point of reference on which to base your sale and likely to prove to myself and the other collector who posted that we were wrong. Unfortunately, it turned out not to be all that accurate and who knows what a third comparable would go for given the 30%+ drop off in price between the two sales.

I support the classic collecting community by speaking out against profiteers and by helping new collectors and collectors who are actually trying to preserve this history find items at the cheapest price possible. I certainly have never tried selling someone else's hard work and intellectual property or releasing it for free without seeking their permission first. I can't imagine stealing from someone else in that way.

[stardust4ever]

Where did this long, drawn out argument about Vectrex stuff come from? I check back and there's like 50 new posts that don't even seem to be worth reading anymore.


Eventually all the NWCs, all protos, all repros, and almost all NES unlicensed games will be dead. How they are cared for makes little difference. Unless the carts are regularly dumped and verified nobody knows how many are already losing data.

How does bit rot apply to Unliscensed games? I have a fair collection of unliscensed games, and I have opened up quite a few of them. I didn't specifically notice any that contained EP-ROMS with little windows on the chips like the protos/ NWC carts did. I'd have to check, but I don't recall seeing epoxy circles on the chips either (I haven't reopened them recently though), a tell-tale sign that it contains an sealed EP-ROM instead of PROM. I believe most of the homebrewers and repros also used write-once PROMS as well. How will these suffer from "bit-rot" when the data is "burned in" permanently?

I guess in the grand scheme of time, any EPROMS, whether epoxied or not, will eventually succumb to partial bit erasures due to background radiation. I am curious, whether or not it is possible to recover an unreadable bit-rotted EPROM using forensics? For example, suppose an EPROM that has suffered bit-rot has only partially erased bits on it. If someone used a logic analyser to measure the output voltage on the pins for every single bit of the ROM, suppose a partially erased bit has an output voltage of 4V, but a bit that originally was recorded as a "1" and never was burned, is still 5.0V. They would all show up as logic "1" on any digital TTL circuit, but by recording the analog voltage output of every bit, the results would likely be lower on the "rotted" bits than on the original logic 1s. It would be a painstackingly slow process to read a ROM chip in this manner, but a lot of curropted data could likely be fully recovered.

Forensic scientists have successfully recovered even professionally "wiped" hard drives, because a "1" overwritten by a "1" will be stronger than a "0" overwritten by a "1" and visa-versa, so a even a drive that has been wiped using software, with every bit erased, may still have extremely weak traces of data left on them, though extracting it would be incredibly expensive and time-consuming.

[skaar]

http://www.dashhacks.com/sites/default/files/lulz.jpg

This is just... goofy now.

[Buyatari]

Can anyone explain this. When a collector finds a prototype for sale exactly what is it he should do? This is starting to sound like "the pearl" and collectors should throw them into the sea and avoid all of this.

If he buys it for asking price then he is taking advantage of the seller.
Yet if he believes the prototype is worth more then he is inflating the price.

If he sells a prototype for going rate he again is inflating the price for gain.
Yet if he sells for less than going rate he has been caught in his lie about the price.

If he keeps the prototype it to himself he is a selfish horder.
Yet if he instead dumps the ROM for all to share he is illegally making copies.

There is no prototype collector in the world who can escape wrong doing by these guidelines. Everyone of them has either dumped or not dumped. They have all paid asking price at one time or another when items are posted for sale. If asked for a value they have all quoted prices on items above what someone may have once paid.

[goatdan]

I'd suggest if I may that everyone should just calm the heck down.

I've been an, uhm "flipper" for 13 years with the GOAT Store. The reason that I started doing it was because when I would buy games online before that, I didn't know what they would look like when they arrived -- would they be new, used, good, poor, whatever... So we started the GOAT Store so we could hopefully help other people out.

Guess what -- I make a little bit of money off each game I sell. If I didn't, I wouldn't be doing it anymore. Not enough for us to do it full time or anything, or even anywhere close to that, but enough to keep the company open, and enough for us to bankroll the MGC each year.

Even before I did this, I had no problem with others making some money when selling to me. These are their games, and if the market price drives the pricing for those titles up, the market drives prices for those titles up. If not, they'll drop.

If you help people out and sell stuff for the love of the game at cost, that's awesome. But, please don't knock people who do it to get a little extra money -- they are still doing people a favor, and if people want to pay $150 or $300 for a copy of a game, it's their right to do so.

For the record, I know no one involved in this 'feud', it just seems strange to me. Every store you buy a game at is making money off it.

[Emperor Megas]

I've only read the first and last page of this thread. I don't what the fuck this is all about, or how serious some of you are taking this debate, but this Panzerfuzion guy is funny as hell.

[Panzerfuzion]

I've only read the first and last page of this thread. I don't what the fuck this is all about, or how serious some of you are taking this debate, but this Panzerfuzion guy is funny as hell.

I want to thank you kind sir, I'm here all weekend.

[Emperor Megas]

I should come here more than.

[skaar]

I should come here more than.

More than what?

[MarioMania]

Will exposing the ROM's or whatever you call it on the cart erase it?

[PapaStu]

Good god. This thead was about a poor NWC that was ripped apart and left naked and exposed for all the world to see and then whored out for the hope of 2k monies. Whatever the hell this has devolved into with huge amounts of bitching about protos, reselling and all kinds of other shit when it shouldn't have ever been about anything other than the absurdity of grading a loose thing that became some kind of standard bearer for any and all future individuals who were going to be foolish enough to send off their comp carts to get graded at a later date.


If anyone wants to continue their bashing please take it to one of the many threads about protos and their good/bad nature, or resellers and their good/bad nature threads that have been beaten to death here for years.


Thread OVA.

**lockerooni**



**Edit to add**

I want to thank you kind sir, I'm here all weekend.

Actually have a week off. I'm tired of the pure trolling and attacks on others.