View Full Version : hdtvs and gaming
kainemaxwell
05-08-2012, 08:48 AM
In the market for a lcd hd tv now. I think I have one picked out but have some questions regarding how to fix my gaming setup with it. Right now I have s-video going through my older switch box which my ps2 and n64 are plugged into (and normally any 3rd system I plug in). Gonna go component for my dvd player like I already have (hd will be for directv), but if the new tv doesn't have s-video hookups, what's the best I can do for my ps2, n64, snes, and dreamcast systems then, and what kind of new switch box would I want? Is component for the ps2 any good? Thinking of getting a rca 39" btw.
(Sorry if this is partially in the wrong forum)
theclaw
05-08-2012, 09:29 AM
The "golden rule" is an HDTV is only as good as the video it receives. Cheapskates will get the kind of poor results LCDs are stereotyped about.
There's two key faults in a typical LCD retro gaming setup:
Poor scaler.
Using composite/RF on consoles capable of better.
Together these may cause very fuzzy images. Most LCD screen panels are themselves actually decent quality, that can be demonstrated with trying HD content on them.
XRGB type up-converters reduce the former by offering improved scaling to the TV's HD level. Component or RGB cables/mods reduce the latter by letting the consoles provide cleaner source video.
Component for the PS2 works well. It's near identical quality to RGB, except component mode allows 480p in compatible games. Careful though! Often the normal component input of HDTVs won't accept low-res games (like PS1 or Disgaea/ICO). Even if they will by s-video. Leading to an annoying cable switch on some TVs if your collection has both 480p games and PS1 games.
I had the same issue at the end of 2010 when I bought my plasma. I was perfectly happy with S-video to my CRT HDTV, but the models I was looking at lacked that input. I purchased an XRGB 2+ to remedy the situation and upgraded to an XRGB Framemeister earlier this year. Framemeister is a great option, but it will set you back about $500. I'm selling my 2+ for much cheaper, if you're interested.
While the XRGB line was created with videogames in mind, there are other viable options out there too. Read more here: http://retrogaming.hazard-city.de/
CRTGAMER
05-08-2012, 11:23 AM
You could take the console to the store and try a test run. LCDs display HD signals fine but are marginal on non HD signals. HD CRT or a HD Plasma display non HD signals clean and do not have the scaling issues.
wiggyx
05-08-2012, 11:40 AM
^^^ that's not a bad idea, although it might be hard to find a big box store to let you do so.
OP, you might want to consider buying an older HDTV. There are pluses and minuses, of course, but it's a good way to get the upgrade you're after with the old timey inputs you want. I have a 1080P Samsung LCD that includes 2 S-video inputs and a 720P Sony DLP with the same. Even with S-video, the SNES looks awful and has a funky "shadow" bar that runs vertically through the middle of the screen on the LCD, while the picture through S-video on the DLP is awesome!
So, point is, it's a crap shoot. Testing before you buy, like this ^^^ guy suggested is a good idea (if you can pull it off).
Genjackson
05-08-2012, 12:17 PM
Just a fair warning, light guns will not work on LCD tvs. Playasia has a gun now that will do newer gun games, but you'll have to say goodbye to duckhunt and hogan's alley. :(
CRTGAMER
05-08-2012, 12:20 PM
Just a fair warning, light guns will not work on LCD tvs. Playasia has a gun now that will do newer gun games, but you'll have to say goodbye to duckhunt and hogan's alley. :(
A good point, the older Lightguns won't work on any HDTV, not even my HDCRT.
kainemaxwell
05-08-2012, 05:37 PM
Anyone recommend ps2 component cables then? Any tv suggestions then? Cause now I'm getting more confused and frustrated over this.
wiggyx
05-09-2012, 08:34 AM
I use the PS2 component cables. Totally worth it IMO for the games that make use of them.
CRTGAMER
05-09-2012, 12:38 PM
Anyone recommend ps2 component cables then? Any tv suggestions then? Cause now I'm getting more confused and frustrated over this.
HD CRT 4:3 screen.
Definitely get the Component Cables, an inexpensive easy upgrade. Some PS2 games display at 480p when holding a button combo during bootup. Two games can even go all the way up to 1080i, Gran Turismo 4 and Tourist Trophy.
PS2 HD List: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_PlayStation_2_games_with_HD_support
BetaWolf47
05-09-2012, 01:11 PM
I had the same issue at the end of 2010 when I bought my plasma. I was perfectly happy with S-video to my CRT HDTV, but the models I was looking at lacked that input. I purchased an XRGB 2+ to remedy the situation and upgraded to an XRGB Framemeister earlier this year. Framemeister is a great option, but it will set you back about $500. I'm selling my 2+ for much cheaper, if you're interested.
While the XRGB line was created with videogames in mind, there are other viable options out there too. Read more here: http://retrogaming.hazard-city.de/
The site talks about 240p though. Do these work alright for 480i via component and S-Video?
The site talks about 240p though. Do these work alright for 480i via component and S-Video?
I have the following hooked up to the Framemeister via S-video:
Dreamcast
Saturn (US and Japan)
Genesis/Sega CD
N64
SNES
Gamecube/GBA player
PC Engine Duo RX
Jaguar
I have the following hooked up via component:
PS2 (Japanese)
Xbox
Wii
I also have an NES hooked via composite. I'm generally happy with the results, but the settings matter a lot as does the game. Generally speaking, it handles all sorts of signals really well, but I'm not a complete graphic nazi either. The dudes at Shmups are way more critical than I am, but it does what I want and has handled just about everything I've thrown at it.
kainemaxwell
05-09-2012, 11:17 PM
Yeah Im just not feeling up to paying $400+ for a box to fix up my older game systems...
Rogue
05-09-2012, 11:42 PM
but if the new tv doesn't have s-video hookups
IMO, people should avoid buying those. The cheap bastards don't put a simple input to save nothing...
otaku
05-10-2012, 01:05 AM
do your research and get yourself a quality set not only in performance but reliability I'm a long time sony fan but samsung has my interest also these days. Lots of other lesser known brands that make good sets (mostly japanese and can get spendy) anyway good info here from the others. Just keep an old CRT for your classics (or hell if you got room get several they practically give them away now!)
kainemaxwell
05-10-2012, 09:09 AM
IMO, people should avoid buying those. The cheap bastards don't put a simple input to save nothing...
Wut you talking about?
Yeah Im just not feeling up to paying $400+ for a box to fix up my older game systems...
You don't have to pay $400 or $500, but it really is worth it. There are a ton of upscaling devices for cheaper, and if you don't notice the lag or can deal with it, there are a lot of options.
kainemaxwell
05-11-2012, 07:46 AM
Ok so any tv recommendations then? *shrug
Gentlegamer
05-11-2012, 05:13 PM
There's also the issue of lag, which I found unbearable with my NES, SNES, and Genesis connected via composite to my Vizio.
Reportedly, there are LCD TVs with game modes that are much better about the lag. Your mileage may vary.
I kept my old 27in SDTV for my retro systems, connected with s-video or less.
I use unofficial component video cables for PS2 and Xbox on the Vizio, and they work great.
sheath
05-13-2012, 09:15 AM
I picked up a Toshiba 40" LCD a couple of years ago. It has a "game mode" that almost completely eliminates input lag, but the TV only lags when it's doing its 120hz upscale thing called Clearframe I think. I'll have to do a video sometime with my CRT and LCD running the same game to see if there is still any lag with game mode on, but it doesn't feel like it. This set doesn't have S-Video either, so I've bought an RGB to Component converter, and an RGB to HDMI 720p upscaler. One works better for some systems than others, and one works better on the CRT I have hooked up and the HDMI works better on the LCD.
That said, I also have the Composite and S-Video cables hooked up for all of the systems that normally used them and I found a decent compromise for the S-Video problem. Radio Shack sells an S-Video/Composite distribution amplifier that will take Composite or S-Video signals and output both amplified and in really nice fidelity. Through this thing S-Video downconverted to Composite on my Toshiba still looks great and better than Composite output on that system does. It also enhances Composite signals very nicely whether you use the S-Video or Composite output, and that makes things a lot better for me since I've got most of my systems going through at least two Switcher boxes.
kainemaxwell
05-14-2012, 01:48 PM
Ok, im stuck on what tv to get. Thinking of getting the Seiki SC-402TT 40-Inch 1080p LCD HDTV - Black cause its a good price and has s-video. Or I can get a more mordern one and get a new switch box (which I planned to anyhow) with component, s-video, etc, and jack everything through there if there's only one set of plugs (and dvd player). Any other suggestions on tvs, or ones with a "game mode"?
If you seek a TV for the systems you mention in the OP (snes, n64, etc), basically anything PS2 or earlier, then you shouldn't be getting an LCD. Just find a good, used Sony CRT.
kainemaxwell
05-14-2012, 02:44 PM
Looking for something that would look decently mainly for PS2 (and up when the time comes), n64 and dreamcast. Other systems I can deal with later. Ok let's make this simple for some people, what's a good 40" lcd that has a game mode option.
sheath
05-14-2012, 10:37 PM
It has been a while since I researched LCDs, but I would just go to google and type LCD TV review game mode and see what popped up. What you are really looking for is stats on how much lag the LCD set introduces, you want that to be as low as possible.
As for the PS2 looking decent, God help you.
kainemaxwell
05-14-2012, 10:47 PM
thanks! Is "game mode" really all it's cracked up to be, or is adjusting settings yourself the way to go?
(talking in general)
theclaw
05-14-2012, 11:30 PM
As for the PS2 looking decent, God help you.
Ah yes. Multiple supported resolutions inside PS2, at 50hz or 60hz for importers... *sigh*
thanks! Is "game mode" really all it's cracked up to be, or is adjusting settings yourself the way to go?
(talking in general)
You can do both. After you've selected the model or models you're interested search for reviews. CNET in particular has a great method of reviewing TVs, and the AVS Forums are a good place to check too.
sheath
05-15-2012, 02:33 PM
thanks! Is "game mode" really all it's cracked up to be, or is adjusting settings yourself the way to go?
(talking in general)
I do both, depending on the game. For RPGs I don't bother with any setting changes, for a quick action game I turn on game mode. If I wanted some of the image enhancing features without the lag I'd turn off clearframe. CNET and AVS is where I researched this set before buying it, but what you really want is to find out how much lag the screen creates with all settings on and all settings off and see if you can live with that.
The Toshiba set I have (http://www.amazon.com/Toshiba-40G300U-40-Inch-1080p-Black/dp/B0038JED80) had reviews online from gamers who claimed they could play fast action games with no problem. I also tested another cheaper set with my Nomad and games like Sonic and Street Fighter II before accepting that whatever lag in the input might be in LCDs is minimal on the good sets. If you get a model in mind and can find it in a store locally you might bring a game console with you and see if they will let you test it first. Don't feel obliged to buy it there if they do, just give it a good run in a fast paced platformer, racer, or fighting game not made by Namco.
Also keep in mind that most popular games from the PS2 on depend on analog stick deadzones and controller lag to maintain the graphics they are displaying. If what you want to play predominantly is on the Playstation consoles or the Xbox, and you aren't into niche action titles like Golden Axe Beast Rider, then the lag introduced by HDTVs is miniscule compared to the consoles themselves.
http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/3725/measuring_responsiveness_in_video_.php?print=1
http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/1942/programming_responsiveness.php
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/digitalfoundry-tech-focus-battle-against-latency
kainemaxwell
05-15-2012, 05:13 PM
right now here's the 2 i'm most interested in:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16889102573&nm_mc=OTC-C173T&cm_mmc=OTC-C173T-_-LCD+TV-_-SAMSUNG-_-89102573
http://www.amazon.com/Toshiba-40RV525R-40-Inch-1080p-HDTV/dp/B001TA1DOC/ref=dp_ob_title_ce
Took a few length measurements at work of a few of the tvs so I can judge how they'll look on the tv stand/entertainment center I have (31 in length)
sheath
05-15-2012, 06:55 PM
right now here's the 2 i'm most interested in:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16889102573&nm_mc=OTC-C173T&cm_mmc=OTC-C173T-_-LCD+TV-_-SAMSUNG-_-89102573
http://www.amazon.com/Toshiba-40RV525R-40-Inch-1080p-HDTV/dp/B001TA1DOC/ref=dp_ob_title_ce
Took a few length measurements at work of a few of the tvs so I can judge how they'll look on the tv stand/entertainment center I have (31 in length)
I'd go with the Toshiba if for no other reason than I know its gaming mode works and Toshiba TVs are top notch. Samsung has come a long way, but I'd take a Toshiba or a Phillips or LG over them still. The price being in favor of the Toshiba would be a deal sealer for me. If you can find one with a 120Hz mode get that instead, you'll be shocked at how much better movies and TV shows look at that rate.
wiggyx
05-15-2012, 08:11 PM
Personally, I'd take a Samsung over any of those brands, ESPECIALLY Toshiba.
sheath
05-15-2012, 08:50 PM
I've noticed a lot of ire popping up against Toshiba in the last year or so. What is that all about, has their product quality dropped? Everything I have owned from them has lasted well past anything Sony makes, decades I mean. Seeing Toshiba fall from that status would be as bad to me as seeing Yamaha start to make consumable electronics.
kainemaxwell
05-15-2012, 09:32 PM
I'd go with the Toshiba if for no other reason than I know its gaming mode works and Toshiba TVs are top notch. Samsung has come a long way, but I'd take a Toshiba or a Phillips or LG over them still. The price being in favor of the Toshiba would be a deal sealer for me. If you can find one with a 120Hz mode get that instead, you'll be shocked at how much better movies and TV shows look at that rate.
you mean like this?
http://www.amazon.com/Samsung-LN40D630-40-Inch-1080p-Black/dp/B004SHKELG
wiggyx
05-15-2012, 10:20 PM
I've noticed a lot of ire popping up against Toshiba in the last year or so. What is that all about, has their product quality dropped? Everything I have owned from them has lasted well past anything Sony makes, decades I mean. Seeing Toshiba fall from that status would be as bad to me as seeing Yamaha start to make consumable electronics.
I don't know about the last year, but I've never been a supporter of Toshiba. They don't do anything particularly well IMO. Not saying that they aren't decent, but with comparable Samsung displays being priced about the same, I see no reason to bother.
Sony's LCD/Plasma boxes aren't bad, but I wouldn't put any on my list of must-haves, that's for sure. They made the best CRTs and their DLPs are nice.
Samsung makes an amazing LCD. Hell, most Apple displays are stuffed with Samsung LCDs. I don't have much of an opinion on anything else these Samsung makes, but their LCDs are pretty much top-notch.
sheath
05-15-2012, 10:39 PM
you mean like this?
http://www.amazon.com/Samsung-LN40D630-40-Inch-1080p-Black/dp/B004SHKELG
That looks alright to me. I'd just look for some reviews online to see if people are using it to play fast paced games. I'd also check newegg reviews to see about reliability issues.
Again, I'd stress reading reviews at places like CNET and AVS Forums. CNET in particular has specific review criteria and tools to measure television performance. User reviews can be helpful too, but I wouldn't take them as gospel. Hell, I wouldn't take CNET's review as the final word either. And as others have already mentioned, if you can go to a store and hook up a console do that too. I did that when I bought my CRT HDTV years ago.
One last thing, while we all have brands we prefer, it's always worth reading reviews for the specific model you're interested in. For instance, Panasonic is my go-to brand for high-end televisions, but they had significant issues with their flagship plasmas in 2009. I could have really fucked someone by blindly recommending their brand that year. Some Samsungs are better than some Toshibas, and vice versa. Just do your research.
kainemaxwell
05-21-2012, 04:52 PM
I measured the length of my tv entertainment center/stand and the length of a 40" tv and took some cardboard to visualize how it would look. Here's a result. I may have to go slightly smaller. lol
5163
sheath
05-22-2012, 10:34 AM
LCDs stand on a base in the center, I've seen lots of people put them on a stand smaller than the set itself. It doesn't hurt anything. I had to expand my entertainment cabinet when I upgraded from a 32" CRT to my old 40" Toshiba RPTV, but since the whole thing is homemade from stained pine board it was only a matter of changing out four boards.
kainemaxwell
05-23-2012, 08:15 AM
LCDs stand on a base in the center, I've seen lots of people put them on a stand smaller than the set itself. It doesn't hurt anything. I had to expand my entertainment cabinet when I upgraded from a 32" CRT to my old 40" Toshiba RPTV, but since the whole thing is homemade from stained pine board it was only a matter of changing out four boards.
I know they're on a stand, I'm really asking for opinions now if with a 40 incher on my current entertainment center with its stand, if it would look good, or be too wide and overpowering.
sheath
06-15-2012, 06:19 PM
I started this project to demonstrate my earlier statement, but the results surprised me. I might need to adjust the way I game nowadays, at least on the classic consoles.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RoqA_DFIrwE
wiggyx
06-16-2012, 12:30 PM
I started this project to demonstrate my earlier statement, but the results surprised me. I might need to adjust the way I game nowadays, at least on the classic consoles.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RoqA_DFIrwE
It's pretty difficult to see any significant difference between the two, most likely because of how you filmed them. The picture is almost completely washed out :(
If the room were completely dark save for the screen and the camera's settings were properly adjusted, then we might get a better idea of what you're seeing (although most of us probably know exactly what you're seeing).
sheath
06-16-2012, 06:18 PM
It's pretty difficult to see any significant difference between the two, most likely because of how you filmed them. The picture is almost completely washed out :(
If the room were completely dark save for the screen and the camera's settings were properly adjusted, then we might get a better idea of what you're seeing (although most of us probably know exactly what you're seeing).
With this camera I have to set it so it only sees the screen and then it will adjust to the screen brightness. I do apologize for the washed out image quality, but the point was to watch how close they were. I had to frame advance the video to see that the LCD was 3-4 frames behind, which explains why I have been playing games from every generation on it for years now without thinking the screen was causing any problems. I did feel like I had to work more at some games than I used to, but when it had been five years since the last time I played the game I just figured I had gotten rusty.
Watching the video a few more times, I also think that the LCD might be catching up during the action at various points. I'll have to frame advance in more areas to see if that is the case.
theclaw
06-16-2012, 07:50 PM
Yeah LCD technology has progressed to where it today isn't itself the main problem when people complain about how old games look. Not necessarily even one's own TV screen panel. Otherwise retro games in good emulators would look worse than they do.
Things like setup, original console's hardware design, and bad upscaler inside the TV, are factors as well.
Some games look hideous to begin with. CRT, LCD, or otherwise, no longer matters then. TVs don't fix a game's underlying creative direction.
Leo_A
06-16-2012, 09:00 PM
"Otherwise retro games in good emulators would look worse than they do."
I think you'll find that those good emulators aren't putting out the games at their original resolutions. Things like Contra on XBLA look as nice as they do since the emulator itself is handling the upscaling chores. The same with PC emulators where upscaling, deinterlacing where appropriate, and a wide range of things like various filtering options go a long ways towards making something like a NES game look nice on a monitor that would perform awful if it were to recieve the image unaltered (And quite possibly not even display it at all).
If you compare something like Super Mario Brothers running on the NES via composite and the Wii via component (And set to 480i which makes all the emulators put out their original resolutions beyond the N64 emulator that will output 480i), you're going to see some improvement thanks to component.
But if the scaling chip sucks with the NES original, it's also going to suck with the same resolution with the Wii emulator.
Parodius Duh!
06-17-2012, 01:14 PM
The Golden rule:
If it was made during the generation of CRT TVs only, then thats what the system will look best on. Only Ps2-onward will look good on hdtv's
People in charge of producing all these new hdtv's dont even consider the fact that people are not playing the most current console.
Leo_A
06-18-2012, 01:07 AM
There are so many 480i PS2 releases that I disagree with that. A Playstation 2 is best enjoyed on a nice CRT.
With the GameCube and Xbox, 480p was common enough that hooking one up to a HDTV isn't a bad idea if it has a halfway decent scaling chip. But making the scaling chip both deinterlace and upscale like it commonly would have to on the PS2 is a recipe for a poor picture and often noticeable input lag with the average HDTV.
theclaw
06-18-2012, 03:57 AM
I suppose it varies. PS2 is when console games started to look more like PC games. IIRC PC games at 480i is a bigger travesty than anything this topic could possibly mention.
BlastProcessing402
06-18-2012, 05:53 PM
For Dreamcast, get a VGA box and hook it up that way, if your TV has a VGA port.
kainemaxwell
08-18-2012, 05:48 PM
Ok update time. Got my new hdtv on layaway at my store and got the rest of the cables, etc needed. Picked up the phillips 4X1 HD Component Av Selector at work today ($10 on sale at my store!). So I'm gonna run a standard component for the output. The other stuff I'm gonna stick through will likely be my dvd player, ps2 and whatever my 2nd game system is at the time (n64 right now). Gonna do component for the ps2 and dvd player again, highest I can do I know is s-video with the n64, what am I looking at possibly for any image degradation by doing this? And tv does have a vga port too. ^^