Fraud / Reprinted manuals, art, sticker labels

[y9784]

I recently purchase several Sega Genesis titles from an online retailer. All items specified original box and manuals included. I got the games and found that the games' labels, cover art, manual looked incredibly sharp--like brand new. One might get excited by the condition but something just seemed strange that 20-some year old titles didn't have a scratch or lost any of their shine in their laminated paper.

As I studied scans online, object placement looked accurate. It is difficult to judge color since that depends on the techniques used for the scanned image. However, I did notice the Arial text looked way too sharp. Finally I noticed a smudge on the cover of one manual as if after printing, someone rubbed against the ink before it dried. I did see some scans online for this cover which show some other small aberrations, but since I do not have an original to compare against, I would like to ask the community to look at this manual and compare it against theirs.

I love the games, but it feels like I am buying some cheap counterfeit knock-off. I'm hoping someone out there has this cover with similar issues.

Here are some detail pics of the manual for Gadget Twins.

[wiggyx]

I'd put a good amount of money on repro.

The area that's affected looks completely untouched in the close up that you provided. I really doubt that the original art was damaged before going to press and that all the original covers have that same blemish. If it was original, then there would be some sort of damage to the paper itself, which there doesn't appear to be.

Pretty sad when a quick google search landed me on a good, clean scan of the cover art, which has a nice big logo that could've easily been cut and pasted. If someone's gonna make repros and try to pass them off as original, then they should at least try and do a good job of it :/

http://www.covergalaxy.com/forum/attachments/sega-genesis-megadrive/9714d1293250750-gadget-twins-ntsc-u-genesis-cover-sleeve-gadget-twins-sleeve-001.jpg

[Rickstilwell1]

with Genesis it is pretty hard to tell though. They were pretty cheaply made in the first place, especially the ones that came in cardboard boxes and black & white manuals

[Gameguy]

Why would anyone make a repro of Gadget Twins? It's not worth much, why not make a repro of a better game? I think it was legit and just not played much.

[SpaceFlea]

That looks perfectly normal to me, and I highly doubt it's a repro. That's very common damage found on many Genny game manuals. It's caused by the cartridge rubbing against the manual. It's just wear over time. I have it on a few manuals with games that I bought brand new in the day. The wear is in the exact same spot as yours. If you line up where the edge of the cart comes into contact with the manual when the case is shut, you'll see it hits right in that spot. Don't worry about it.

[y9784]

The manuals are really difficult to differentiate form known (gosh! my trust is broken) originals in my collection. Some manuals have different paper stock for the interior pages. They feel more rough and are not laminated. The gadget twins one is the same shiny paper all the way through.


Why would anyone make a repro of Gadget Twins? It's not worth much, why not make a repro of a better game? I think it was legit and just not played much.

I feel the same way. Ruin your store's BBB rating over a $3 profit. I did get Granada as well with manual and box w/ cover art. That game complete goes for $40 or so, correct? I didn't pay that much.

[y9784]

That looks perfectly normal to me, and I highly doubt it's a repro. That's very common damage found on many Genny game manuals. It's caused by the cartridge rubbing against the manual. It's just wear over time. I have it on a few manuals with games that I bought brand new in the day. The wear is in the exact same spot as yours. If you line up where the edge of the cart comes into contact with the manual when the case is shut, you'll see it hits right in that spot. Don't worry about it.


I've never seen this even when I bought games new in the 90s. I just think it is quite odd for the obscure titles I chose that they were all in brand new shape. The biggest issues being the really sharp copyright text and the laminate paper showing no wear at all.

[y9784]

This is the scan I found online with similar damage which SpaceFlea says is more common than I think.

http://www.rfgeneration.com/cgi-bin/getinfo.pl?ID=U-040-S-02230-A&type=ms

[wiggyx]

The manuals are really difficult to differentiate form known (gosh! my trust is broken) originals in my collection. Some manuals have different paper stock for the interior pages. They feel more rough and are not laminated. The gadget twins one is the same shiny paper all the way through.



I feel the same way. Ruin your store's BBB rating over a $3 profit. I did get Granada as well with manual and box w/ cover art. That game complete goes for $40 or so, correct? I didn't pay that much.

LOL @ BBB rating!

Seriously, nobody cares about the BBB anymore. They're a useless relic of yesteryear, almost completely irrelevant in the 21st century.

[jonebone]

Dude, we're talking Gadget Twins. No one is going to waste time making a reproduction of that since it would probably cost more than you'd sell it for. Stop being paranoid. If it were a super expensive game, then you could have some reason to be concerned. This is just normal wear on a normal manual.

[sloan]

I've said it in threads before: I print repro labels and cover art as needed for my personal collection. I get games through thrifts that are missing clam shell liners, have ripped labels, missing labels, et al. I am not going to leave those games in that condition just to appease those who call it "fraud". IMO, it is not fraud intended to bilk some unknowing person of his or her money. My only intent is to make my collection look as close to original as possible. Plus, I consider it preservation of items that might otherwise meet the landfill. The more gaming items preserved for future generations, the better.

[Gameguy]

I've said it in threads before: I print repro labels and cover art as needed for my personal collection.
This is why I hate it when people replace labels or cover art, it just makes it harder to verify anything later on as legitimate or reproduction.

[wiggyx]

This is why I hate it when people replace labels or cover art, it just makes it harder to verify anything later on as legitimate or reproduction.

Yeah, that is a concern, for sure. It's getting easier and easier to make fairly legitimate looking repro labels at this point too. Almost any of us could do so in our homes with our PC and an inexpensive printer.

This is one of those things that changes the game a bit. Almost anything that's collectable/valuable has been the victim of fakes and reproductions at some point. This sort of thing is a good indicator that classic games are indeed a serious collectable at this point and that we all need to be hyper vigilant when purchasing such things. As if game collecting wasn't enough of a PITA...

[Emperor Megas]

Seems a little extreme to be troubled by what people do with their person things. :|

[wiggyx]

I think his concern is that those "personal" items may eventually find their way back into the market.

[Buyatari]

I doubt Gadget Twins is a copy but the only way to tell a copy for sure is to compare it side by side with one known to be authentic.

[Gameguy]

I think his concern is that those "personal" items may eventually find their way back into the market.
This. People eventually sell off their games or collections, or die and their family does this. It's not like it would be easy to tell the difference between a new label and an original as the replacements are made to look and feel the same, and these aren't something that you expect would be replaced due to normal wear.

I personally have a copy of MUSHA with a damaged label, I'm not going to replace it. I'm going to find another copy in better condition.

[Parodius Duh!]

This thread is hilarious.

Sometimes printers, Yes, even big time Sega's printers at the factory can make mistakes. Not everything is printed at the same location, etc. Theres so many factors that could explain this off. Its legit, nobody in their right mind would make a repro of this game.

[Emperor Megas]

I think his concern is that those "personal" items may eventually find their way back into the market.But is that really a big deal? It's just a video game in someone's collection after all. There is a chance that it could end up in the resale market, sure, but it's not like it's a car with the VIN numbers swapped or anything. FTR, I'm absolutely not saying he's 'wrong' for feeling the way he does, I just think that it's a little extreme to hate people making replacement labels and cover art for their games. A lot of people in this hobby are extreme though, IMO.

[101011]

Maybe a prime example would be my copy of moonwalker,

I got the game with a genesis I bought. It actually came in a master system box though. I remember that because I made them try to guess what what was inside the box when I sold it at the games store. It had instructions and he had just died, I remember that too. Also, I had just recently come across this site http://www.thecoverproject.net/ Long story short, My "personal collection" just got a little better. I don't really care that it's a reproduction and would not pass it of as one but if I were to "die and have family members sell off my games" I would not want anyone to think that this an actual copy so, this is what I did. I wrote REPRO COVER on the back. I realised after I did this however, that the entire back side is plastered with "Likon - DIGITAL INKJET PAPER". Oh well, this has to be enough to satisfy any doubt. No?

-FYI-

I am also currently installing glob chip pirate versions of Snow Brothers, Bubble Bobble part 2 and megaman 6 with famicom adaptors inside of nes carts. HA!

My personal collection is about to get just a little better

[sloan]

This thread is hilarious.


Agree. :roll:


But is that really a big deal? It's just a video game in someone's collection after all. There is a chance that it could end up in the resale market, sure, but it's not like it's a car with the VIN numbers swapped or anything. FTR, I'm absolutely not saying he's 'wrong' for feeling the way he does, I just think that it's a little extreme to hate people making replacement labels and cover art for their games. A lot of people in this hobby are extreme though, IMO.

It's not that big a deal. We're not talking about the Mona Lisa or Picasso here. These are video games, for crying out loud. I did not get into video games to "make a fortune" or some other delusion. I collect and play for fun. Yes, there is a possibility that my estate may someday pass on items in my collection to unknowing buyers. So what. The printed labels and liners I create are very professional and would take a microscope to detect (if someone could even tell the difference at that point).

[wiggyx]

Agree. :roll:



It's not that big a deal. We're not talking about the Mona Lisa or Picasso here. These are video games, for crying out loud. I did not get into video games to "make a fortune" or some other delusion. I collect and play for fun. Yes, there is a possibility that my estate may someday pass on items in my collection to unknowing buyers. So what. The printed labels and liners I create are very professional and would take a microscope to detect (if someone could even tell the difference at that point).



Would not require a microscope. Inkjet/Laserjet versus offset print is easy to distinguish if you're familiar with how each process works. Not arguing the quality, just that it's definitely easy to spot the differences between a legitimate copy and a repro (in person, that is).

[Gameguy]

Why bother collect anything then. Just make actual repro carts of every game you want and make professional looking labels, instruction booklets, and case liners. Nobody would notice the difference unless they opened the game up. There's no reason to bother looking for actual copies of rare games when you can make your own for cheaper from scratch.

[y9784]

I might even go so far to say emulate then.

I got back into the retro scene for the authenticity of the experience. Buying counterfeits of old games takes away from that feel. It's the reason why I don't plan on purchasing items like the Everdrive cartridges.

Simply dismissing videogames as play things and not collectible items in their own right is foolish. Just look at those old Action Comics and Timely comics which sell for thousands now 50-70 years after their release. This is serious business.

Also, how great do you feel when you find a rare game that is fun to play at a garage sale or thrift store? You are excited to play the real game but also excited that you got such a great deal.

[xelement5x]

Why bother collect anything then. Just make actual repro carts of every game you want and make professional looking labels, instruction booklets, and case liners. Nobody would notice the difference unless they opened the game up. There's no reason to bother looking for actual copies of rare games when you can make your own for cheaper from scratch.

That's the thing about video game repros, most of them are a labor of love more than anything. If you think about how long it takes someone to make the repro cart, design and print a label and sleeve insert, and possible create a professional looking manual as well, they'd probably just be better off spending the money on a legit version and saving the time to play the game.

This may not be true for everyone, but in most cases time worth more than money to me. I'd rather buy the game and play it then spend 10+ hours making a reproduction just to save $50.

[fluid_matrix]

I've picked up a few N64 lots lately where some of the games are in horrible condition. I've been taking them apart, cleaning them inside and out, and replacing the labels. If/when I offer them for sale, I note that the labels aren't original. I actually thought I had brought up this discussion here at one point, but I can't seem to find the thread.

[y9784]

This isn't a thread where people should think they have to reconcile their own actions done for private use. I get that you want your games to look nice. A big online game retailer should not do this and say that their items are original and not reprinted. And, if this is the case with my purchase of Gadget Twins, Steel Empire, Bio Hazard Battle, and Granada, then I can bet others have been scammed as well.

[wiggyx]

But is that really a big deal? It's just a video game in someone's collection after all. There is a chance that it could end up in the resale market, sure, but it's not like it's a car with the VIN numbers swapped or anything. FTR, I'm absolutely not saying he's 'wrong' for feeling the way he does, I just think that it's a little extreme to hate people making replacement labels and cover art for their games. A lot of people in this hobby are extreme though, IMO.

Dunno, you're asking the wrong guy.

[Emperor Megas]

Why bother collect anything then.The main reason that I collect video games to play them. They also look pretty cool on a shelf, and the older ones have a nostalgic appeal for those who were around when they were current.


Just make actual repro carts of every game you want and make professional looking labels, instruction booklets, and case liners. Nobody would notice the difference unless they opened the game up. There's no reason to bother looking for actual copies of rare games when you can make your own for cheaper from scratch."Just" make actual repro carts? That's a LOT more involved than just purchasing existing games. I wouldn't know the first thing to do to make reproduction carts, and neither would most people who play video games, and my time is worth more than the result. My method is a lot easier: if I see a game that I want online or in a store, I purchase it. Easy peasy.

[Gameguy]

"Just" make actual repro carts? That's a LOT more involved than just purchasing existing games. I wouldn't know the first thing to do to make reproduction carts, and neither would most people who play video games, and my time is worth more than the result. My method is a lot easier: if I see a game that I want online or in a store, I purchase it. Easy peasy.
Then I have to wonder why anyone would need to replace any labels, why not just buy a copy in good condition online instead of buying some beat up cart?

[Emperor Megas]

Then I have to wonder why anyone would need to replace any labels, why not just buy a copy in good condition online instead of buying some beat up cart?I'd image people do it for different reasons. Maybe a game isn't easy to come across, or perhaps their copy became damaged at some point and they'd like to restore it since they already have it. Some might just find an damaged cartridge and just want to 'repair' it for fun.

I tend to only purchase games that are in god cosmetic condition myself, and for cheap. I have acquired incomplete games, and games with damaged labels and/or cases, but I usually end up getting another case or cart to replace the damaged ones eventually.

[sloan]

Then I have to wonder why anyone would need to replace any labels, why not just buy a copy in good condition online instead of buying some beat up cart?

Most often, the reasoning goes something like this:

Hmmm, I'm at this Salvation Army store and they have beat-up game "XYZ" for only $1. That is a nice deal compared to $14 for it on ebay. I think I'll buy it since I do not have it in my collection.

It's really as simple as that.

[wiggyx]

Most often, the reasoning goes something like this:

Hmmm, I'm at this Salvation Army store and they have beat-up game "XYZ" for only $1. That is a nice deal compared to $14 for it on ebay. I think I'll buy it since I do not have it in my collection.

It's really as simple as that.

This X1000.

Pretty much the only reason that beat carts find their way into my collection. Like others have said, I buy games mostly to play, not just to look pretty on a shelf.

[Gameguy]

I'd image people do it for different reasons. Maybe a game isn't easy to come across, or perhaps their copy became damaged at some point and they'd like to restore it since they already have it. Some might just find an damaged cartridge and just want to 'repair' it for fun.

I tend to only purchase games that are in god cosmetic condition myself, and for cheap. I have acquired incomplete games, and games with damaged labels and/or cases, but I usually end up getting another case or cart to replace the damaged ones eventually.
I'm basically the same way, I'd only buy games if they're in good condition and cheap. The only damaged games I got were either in a bundle or very cheap and worth much more than the asking price.


Most often, the reasoning goes something like this:

Hmmm, I'm at this Salvation Army store and they have beat-up game "XYZ" for only $1. That is a nice deal compared to $14 for it on ebay. I think I'll buy it since I do not have it in my collection.

It's really as simple as that.
So it is mostly about the price, as long as you can save money. That's what I was getting at with making repros, they're cheaper to make than buying some of the rarer games. Say MUSHA, or Little Samson or other rarities. You could find a rarer beat up game for cheap but how long would you have to search for it? If you just want to play it you wouldn't want to wait to find it. I wrote that bit not just as a reply to Emperor Megas but also because of another reply in the thread, saying it wouldn't be worth the hassle of making repros of rare games just to save some money.


That's the thing about video game repros, most of them are a labor of love more than anything. If you think about how long it takes someone to make the repro cart, design and print a label and sleeve insert, and possible create a professional looking manual as well, they'd probably just be better off spending the money on a legit version and saving the time to play the game.

This may not be true for everyone, but in most cases time worth more than money to me. I'd rather buy the game and play it then spend 10+ hours making a reproduction just to save $50.


Going back to an even earlier quote;

But is that really a big deal? It's just a video game in someone's collection after all. There is a chance that it could end up in the resale market, sure, but it's not like it's a car with the VIN numbers swapped or anything. FTR, I'm absolutely not saying he's 'wrong' for feeling the way he does, I just think that it's a little extreme to hate people making replacement labels and cover art for their games. A lot of people in this hobby are extreme though, IMO.
I'm not that extreme with the hobby, but I do want things to match properly. A lot of collectors aren't picky enough. A few years ago I bought a "complete" copy of Super Mario Land 2 from another local collector I've dealt with several times before. When I got home I looked over the game. The box was from the US version, the manual was the Canadian version, the game was the Canadian Player's Choice version, and the tray was from a Gameboy Color game that wouldn't fit in a plastic case for the game. He didn't know that nothing matched when he pieced it together from spare parts, some people just don't pay attention to things that well.

There are some things that don't need to be original for me, I expect save batteries would eventually need to be replaced or capacitors. Those changes I don't really mind, but they would still have to be done properly. I know several people just tape new batteries in place with electrical tape, that wouldn't be good enough for me as I'd expect a new one to be soldered in with a proper holder.

[needler]

Thread is full of major hypocrites lol.

They complain about authentic looking repro labels ruining the hobby. I personally know multiple of those people complaining about that not only buy, sell but produce reproduction carts for monetary gain that are unlicensed.

An example with Zelda Parallel Worlds.

This is just a few graphic designers who are making the art boxes and one or two guys, who are taking old carts apart, copying Nintendo's code and hackers' designs onto it...and selling it. Yes, selling it... but NOT owning it.

They DON'T own the original code, they DON'T own the new design i.e. all adaptations of the original game, they DON'T even own the hardware, since the chip and casing was taken from some other SNES cart. They DON'T even own the graphic design of the booklet and the characters (all of this is Nintendo's art work of A link to the past game). They are simply copying all that.

That's why we, the romhackers, only support freeware IPS/patch files. We DON'T support romfiles on the internet, we DON'T support cart making and we especially DON'T support any monetary action connected with them.


And we DON'T support people bragging on the You tube, how they've just bought an illegal cart. It is like saying: "Look, I'm a dumbass, I've just bought a cart from someone, who doesn't own it, and I've spent 150$ for a game I could play for free. I'm a collector and don't like emulators, I like to be abused by cart resellers instead."

Parallel Worlds was released as an IPS file, not a rom file or a cart. The IPS should be used for PERSONAL purposes only. Making and selling carts or putting a rom on the internet for profits is NOT among those!



Personally I would do this.

If I got a game where the label was really ruined I might replace the label. I don't know whether I would mark it as repro.

I wouldn't buy any repro just because we didn't get a release in our region or the game is expensive because I don't want to support the cart maker for using other people work and not paying royalties on it. I'd sooner emulate something like earthbound nes then buy the cart and support that practice.

i think the guy emulating is less damaging then someone supporting cart makers. Now they run sites and run stores like timewalk games. Some phrase them some hate them.




And the same people that do that and support that don't support someone making a repro label unmarked but instead create sell and buy repros that are marked but unlicensed for monetary gains.

I don't know but with just common sense I find it hard to be more angry with the label repro makers then the actual game repros and sales of them unlicensed.

an example of a legit game would be pier solar which isn't a reproduction. Its a newly created game for a retro system that was created legally with all legit licenses. The game was even delayed because of legal disputes with one of the creators art work.

in other words if you own a unlicensed reproduction cartridge that you didn't make or had made for you on a "personal level" you're kind of a hypocrite imo to get angry at someone making a label unmarked.

[FieryReign]

Thread is full of major hypocrites lol.

And we DON'T support people bragging on the You tube, how they've just bought an illegal cart. It is like saying: "Look, I'm a dumbass, I've just bought a cart from someone, who doesn't own it, and I've spent 150$ for a game I could play for free. I'm a collector and don't like emulators, I like to be abused by cart resellers instead."

GameSack

[Atarileaf]

Collectors want authentic pieces. This is why CIB is worth more than a loose cart. If I get a cart with a repro manual and case art, in my mind I'm paying for a loose cart and would feel ripped off if I paid for it as if it was CIB. Yes it cost the original owner money and time but if that's the argument then that fact should be disclosed to the buyer up front. The "it doesn't bother me and shouldn't bother anyone else" argument is invalid as each collector desires different things and the way they desire and pay for their collection is up to each person.

The happy medium is to put "repro label" or something similar somewhere on the reprinted item, even if in small print and if you sell that item to someone either in person or on ebay, it should be disclosed. To do otherwise is a form of fraud to make more money.

And yes, if you die and someone else sells them, you're off the hook :roll:

[Tanooki]

Collectors need to take a chill pill. Needler loves to well, needle, but damn he is right about the hypocrites and the rest of it for once here.

Personally if I had a game with a bad enough label, AND I had the capability to make a new label on the level of the trashy water soluable sticker+ink Nintendo used on later SNES, Super GB->GBA, N64 type games -- I'd do it. Just because the sticker has been restored doesn't make the game any less that game, it's still the same thing inside. Throwing some ugly tattoo on there that it's a repro is asinine and leads to misconceptions by people who don't read anyway or think when they do. The people who praise things like Timewalk or the rest are just deluded fools backing crooks, same with people who pony up for those limited releases of prototypes the Nolan Brothers do. So what, they bought a proto, they didn't actually legally buy it, nor did they get legal permission to reproduce someone elses code and hardwork let alone if it still exists the parent company they worked for. Yet people are happy to shell over like a $100 for a illegally manufactured bootleg (I won't call it a repro, it's not authorized) and are fine. They're also fine using a stolen translation of Seiken Densetsu 3 that has been online for like 15 years too. Problem is the hypocrites will turn on you if you shit in your own backyard and make a bootleg of a game from their own territory. Rendering Ranger (Targa) GOOD! Little Samson made with infiniteneslives.com parts BAD! Riiiight. Both are bad, both equally illegal. There should be no pick and choose on any of the thievery. Do it all, or do none of it, don't pick what's convenient so your bullshit dollar signs in your eyes aren't threatened.

All that said, back to the whole label thing -- do it, just disclose it to the next person, that's it. Lots of mediums and collectible items have this done without sullying the look of the item with ghetto 'repro' written all over it. Provide the work done, the provenance done on it (receipt, list of updates, whatever) and be done with it. If someone wants to get butthurt over it, that's their personal problem, not yours, ignore them. I'm so glad I got a large bit out of this crap and got into pinball, people aren't d-bags over original or legally remanufactured replacement playfield parts and boards and they aren't inked up to signify that either.

[SparTonberry]

I also agree. Complaining about repro labels is just ridiculous, assuming the game inside is still legit.
If someone gets ripped off because they overpaid for a fraudulent label, well it's because nitpicking allowed it (the market for label fraud) to happen.
If it was a high-quality reproduction label, I wouldn't care over the original. I'd be disappointed if it was the typical pirate blurred/badly Photoshopped label, but not outright angry.

Bootleg games is where the real problem is.

[Tanooki]

Exactly it's a diversionary tactic. A high quality label, and guess what, I know the process now as I learned it (just can't afford it right now) can be done in the quality I wrote of in the last post. Hell I might be able to pull it off with the business printer I have maybe with the correct settings. The thing is, stickers are just that, stickers, it's the game itself there's your value. Do you want a real one with a real board and real chips, or a chop shop warez job? Stickers come and go, the game on the original chip that's a whole other matter.

I think most sane people would probably care more about what's inside, as long a the outside has the same enough quality (sticker) as the original. I'd buy in a heartbeat a new correct label on an original cart/board+chipset over an original sticker that looks like it was dipped in shit or run across a cheese grater. It would have to be so clean I'd need to side by side something and look super hard to notice a difference in print quality to care. If it was the usual photoshopped blurry crap done on a cheap $100 deskjet with glued on paper or a penny quality sticker I'd be angry too.

Here's a tip for the right way - weatherproofing label sheet. Use that, use a deskjet business quality type or nicer so the teeny lettering/details isn't lost. Then get a self sealing sheet to lay over the label sheet once it is printed. Use normal bright printing paper settings on your printer to retain the original image color so it doesn't shift or affect the quality either. After that just be sure you cut the edges and curve the corners right and you're set. The thickness may be off by a few nm, but it would be a real bitch to notice. I'm sure someone will get pissed I wrote that, so be it. A place called onlinelabels.com has the supplies you'll need. Good luck.