SON OF A BITCH. 3DS XL announce for the US.

[Bojay1997]

3DS was $250, and if Nintendo had their way it would still be $250. It's not an anti-Nintendo attack, and if it is you must be a Nintendo apologist. But let's be real and acknowledge I'm not anti-Nintendo for the sake of being anti-Nintendo, and you're not an apologist for the Big N. I'm just giving credit where credit is due, and Nintendo undoubtedly can and should do better. They have a history of releasing substandard handheld hardware, and because of that I no longer support them out of the gate. I'm reasonably optimistic they will eventually get it right, and when they do I'll drop some cash and buy a 3DSi XLL or whatever it will be called.

Yes, of course they would prefer that it was still at $250, but it's not. I'm sure Sony would love to still be getting $600 for the PS3 which is what I paid for my launch model. The 3DS is $170 and yet despite Sony having plenty of notice of the
3DS price drop, they still launched Vita at the $250 price point. I still haven't figured out what your complaint is about the 3DSXL. If they had gone in the direction that some speculated they would and added the second stick on this hardware revision, I could understand the frustration. Here, all they are doing is increasing the screen size and giving consumers two hardware options that are 100% compatible with existing 3DS software. I don't recall anyone complaining that the 3DS screen was too small at launch and it's certainly comparable to the screen real estate on the Vita and PSP.

Sony dropped UMD support and wants to charge me to buy digital copies of the hundreds of games I already bought. Should I be upset that they haven't embraced the trend of any device any content or just celebrate the fact that I have a great system in my Vita that has some amazing exclusive games?

Seriously, you need to get over whatever perceived offense Nintendo has committed against you and if you don't like what they offer, feel free not to buy it until the hardware is just the way you want it, if in fact that day ever comes.

[Bojay1997]

Almost all of Nintendo's revisions on their handheld systems are all major revisions that more than likely get their fanbase to go out and purchase the later revision. Unless you want to get fucked over by Nintendo's practices, you either don't enjoy many of the games that are released on their systems and purchase only the very last revision to get the best deal, or you enjoy their systems and wait until a final revision so you can get the best version of the portable. It's bullshit. PC gamers pay less staying up to date than Nintendo fans do at enjoying Nintendo consoles.

If you were a PSP owner that owned a 1000, about the only revision that makes any major difference that you have to own to get the superior version was the PSP2000 or 3000. The 3000 has a microphone on the PSP. I must have it!!!! No. The tv out on the 2000 was all that mattered. While the Wonderswan and Neo Geo Pocket had Color versions like Nintendo did with the Gameboy Color, there are the Game Gear and Turbo Express Portable that offered the full experience without having to purchase a second revision. Sure both the Game Gear and Turbo Express Portable suck battery life harder than a porn star sucks a dick, but you didn't have to go out and purchase another portable to make up for the short comings of the one you originally purchased like every Nintendo portable ever.

You're right, NEC got out of the video game business completely and Sega stopped supporting the Game Gear. I paid full price for both systems and got plenty of enjoyment from both even though I would have loved for them to be supported far longer. Meanwhile, there are still great DS games coming out including Pokemon Conquest just last week, some eight years after the DS launched.

Your argument is terrible and frankly laughable. I was a PSP 1000 launch day adopter and I did buy the 2000 because I wanted the TV out. I didn't complain about it because frankly, Sony never promised me TV out just like Nintendo never promised a second analog stick or that the screen size would never be increased as manufacturing costs dropped. Life is full of choices and there are times when technology changes or prices drop or features get added and removed. You can either stop buying electronic products or accept that sometimes something better will come along the day after you decide to buy something. We've all been there and Nintendo is no more or less guilty of the practice than Sony, Microsoft, Apple or any other manufacturer.

[Robocop2]

Heh just posted about this in the E3 thread.


http://img.gawkerassets.com/img/17pitf7sh1vdyjpg/original.jpg

Found out about this recently though, Nyko's own take on the Circle Pad Pro and unless the XL wows me in person I'll just pick one of these up. They are going to sell it for 30 bucks, claim a 3x battery life and it works as another "shell" for your 3DS. Their extended battery worked wonders for my 3DS and it seems a lot cheaper then getting the "gamestop discount" on trading up to the next big thing. I am a lot more excited for this thing then I am the XL. :p

All kinds of this!

[RCM]

Yes, of course they would prefer that it was still at $250, but it's not. I'm sure Sony would love to still be getting $600 for the PS3 which is what I paid for my launch model. The 3DS is $170 and yet despite Sony having plenty of notice of the
3DS price drop, they still launched Vita at the $250 price point. I still haven't figured out what your complaint is about the 3DSXL. If they had gone in the direction that some speculated they would and added the second stick on this hardware revision, I could understand the frustration. Here, all they are doing is increasing the screen size and giving consumers two hardware options that are 100% compatible with existing 3DS software. I don't recall anyone complaining that the 3DS screen was too small at launch and it's certainly comparable to the screen real estate on the Vita and PSP.

Sony dropped UMD support and wants to charge me to buy digital copies of the hundreds of games I already bought. Should I be upset that they haven't embraced the trend of any device any content or just celebrate the fact that I have a great system in my Vita that has some amazing exclusive games?

Seriously, you need to get over whatever perceived offense Nintendo has committed against you and if you don't like what they offer, feel free not to buy it until the hardware is just the way you want it, if in fact that day ever comes.

I thought you were a tad more perceptive. I re-entered this thread based on your moaning about Nintendo not being our friend, etc. 3DS XL speaks to a deeper issue I have with companies who indulge in the shit practice of deliberately releasing substandard hardware and handhelds. It isn't exclusive to Nintendo, but they've arguably benefited from the practice more than other companies, especially in the traditional video game space. I'm advocating for all companies to be more consumer-friendly while still making tons of cash. Apple is a great example of this. If you're content with the Big N sodomizing you that's between you and Reggie, but don't roll your eyes 'cause I'm not down with it.

My retina display weeps for you, truly.

[Bojay1997]

I thought you were a tad more perceptive. I re-entered this thread based on your moaning about Nintendo not being our friend, etc. 3DS XL speaks to a deeper issue I have with companies who indulge in the shit practice of deliberately releasing substandard hardware and handhelds. It isn't exclusive to Nintendo, but they've arguably benefited from the practice more than other companies, especially in the traditional video game space. I'm advocating for all companies to be more consumer-friendly while still making tons of cash. Apple is a great example of this. If you're content with the Big N sodomizing you that's between you and Reggie, but don't roll your eyes 'cause I'm not down with it.

My retina display weeps for you, truly.

Again, you have provided zero support for your contention. I'm not aware of any revision of the Nintendo console or handheld hardware that was released because the previous model was "substandard". New models have been released to embrace new technologies, economies of scale, competition and to satisfy customer demand, but I have yet to see anything by Nintendo, Sony or Apple or frankly any company with the exception of Microsoft (which had a very specific defect in the launch 360) that would qualify as developed solely because the previous model was substandard. The fact that you've attributed human conduct to a faceless corporation is humorous, but it shows that you really are just here to bash one company.

Apple has always charged a massive premium for its hardware, one that far outstrips the marginal improvement in quality over its competitors. Heck, with the exception of RAM upgrades, you can't even expand most Apple computer models anymore and authorized service is ridiculously expensive. That doesn't change the fact that I own many Apple products and have no problem paying the premium for what I think are great products. Nintendo is no better or worse than Apple, Microsoft or Sony. They all release whatever they think the market will bear and it's up to the market to accept or reject it.

[RCM]

Again, you have provided zero support for your contention. I'm not aware of any revision of the Nintendo console or handheld hardware that was released because the previous model was "substandard". New models have been released to embrace new technologies, economies of scale, competition and to satisfy customer demand, but I have yet to see anything by Nintendo, Sony or Apple or frankly any company with the exception of Microsoft (which had a very specific defect in the launch 360) that would qualify as developed solely because the previous model was substandard. The fact that you've attributed human conduct to a faceless corporation is humorous, but it shows that you really are just here to bash one company.

Apple has always charged a massive premium for its hardware, one that far outstrips the marginal improvement in quality over its competitors. Heck, with the exception of RAM upgrades, you can't even expand most Apple computer models anymore and authorized service is ridiculously expensive. That doesn't change the fact that I own many Apple products and have no problem paying the premium for what I think are great products. Nintendo is no better or worse than Apple, Microsoft or Sony. They all release whatever they think the market will bear and it's up to the market to accept or reject it.

"Substandard" is my qualitative interpretation, but here's an example of Nintendo addressing a substandard component of one its handhelds. Original GBA to SP revision. Nintendo switched to a front lit screen due to the previous version's "substandard" display. Sales of third party "lamps" speak to the issue Nintendo addressed with that particular revision.

Some revisions are made to save costs, and others are made to address inadequate components and design.

[Bojay1997]

"Substandard" is my qualitative interpretation, but here's an example of Nintendo addressing a substandard component of one its handhelds. Original GBA to SP revision. Nintendo switched to a front lit screen due to the previous version's "substandard" display. Sales of third party "lamps" speak to the issue Nintendo addressed with that particular revision.

Some revisions are made to save costs, and others are made to address inadequate components and design.

I just see "substandard" as far too loaded a term to apply to that revision or any other. In my opinion, for something to be substandard, it has to be well below other similar products at the same price and quality point. I purchased my GBA shortly after launch and yes, I bought an aftermarket light because at the time I was using it a lot on airplanes or other locations where light was an issue. I didn't, however, feel like Nintendo put out a substandard product and the fact that they released a hardware revision that addressed not only the light issue, but certain ergonomic and battery issues, seemed like a responsible approach to me and not some kind of cash in that punished early adopters. It's not like they launched the SP revision within a few months of the GBA, it was two years later, just like the time between the iPad 1 and the new iPad (i.e., the third major hardware revision). Was the iPad 1 "substandard" because the processor was far less powerful than the current iPad and the display was 1/4 of the current Retina resolution? I just think you are applying a double standard here and complaining about normal practice in the consumer electronics industry.

[RCM]

I just see "substandard" as far too loaded a term to apply to that revision or any other. In my opinion, for something to be substandard, it has to be well below other similar products at the same price and quality point. I purchased my GBA shortly after launch and yes, I bought an aftermarket light because at the time I was using it a lot on airplanes or other locations where light was an issue. I didn't, however, feel like Nintendo put out a substandard product and the fact that they released a hardware revision that addressed not only the light issue, but certain ergonomic and battery issues, seemed like a responsible approach to me and not some kind of cash in that punished early adopters. It's not like they launched the SP revision within a few months of the GBA, it was two years later, just like the time between the iPad 1 and the new iPad (i.e., the third major hardware revision). Was the iPad 1 "substandard" because the processor was far less powerful than the current iPad and the display was 1/4 of the current Retina resolution? I just think you are applying a double standard here and complaining about normal practice in the consumer electronics industry.

We're just going around in circles at this point, however you'd like to define it.

[Rob2600]

RCM, Bojay's point is that the 3DS XL is similar to Sony releasing a 42" and a 52" TV, or Apple releasing an iPod and an iPod Nano. Nintendo is merely offering people two different sizes- the normal, pocket-sized 3DS and a larger version. Both do the exact same things, they're just two different sizes.

How is that screwing anyone over?

And for the record, the original iPhone couldn't even run apps, and the iPhone 4 lost reception when people held it in their hands to make phone calls. Remember that? Instead of actually fixing the problem, Steve Jobs got on stage and whined that everyone was holding it wrong.

[RCM]

RCM, Bojay's point is that the 3DS XL is similar to Sony releasing a 42" and a 52" TV, or Apple releasing an iPod and an iPod Nano. Nintendo is merely offering people two different sizes- the normal, pocket-sized 3DS and a larger version. Both do the exact same things, they're just two different sizes.

How is that screwing anyone over?

And for the record, the original iPhone couldn't even run apps, and the iPhone 4 lost reception when people held it in their hands to make phone calls. Remember that? Instead of actually fixing the problem, Steve Jobs got on stage and whined that everyone was holding it wrong.

My issue isn't solely with the 3DS XL. That really hasn't been involved on my side of the debate. It's really a consumer's choice to buy or not. My contention is that hardware manufacturers should bring out competent hardware at launch. Some do, some don't, and in my view and other people's view Nintendo hasn't done a good job of that throughout the years. I'm not sure why that's such a fucked up desire...

As for the original iPhone, it was incapable of running apps in general? The app store as we know it didn't launch until the following year... As for the antenna issues with the 4, it wasn't simply "you hold it and can't make a call," but there certainly was a defect and Apple sent people free cases to address the issue.

[BetaWolf47]

<snip>
....and notice how I didn't mention New Super Mario Bros 2.

So, I don't know if you're still relying on the same information from March 2011 or you swapped brains with kupo, but the 3DS has good games. And there are still more games coming down the pike going 3 months into the handheld's 2nd year. If they're not up to your personal likings, well there's always next year. :)

That is quite a list, but it just doesn't seem like stuff I'd be into. Is the Adventure Time game supposed to be that good? I'm kind of wary about buying anything current-gen though.

[j_factor]

I just see "substandard" as far too loaded a term to apply to that revision or any other. In my opinion, for something to be substandard, it has to be well below other similar products at the same price and quality point. I purchased my GBA shortly after launch and yes, I bought an aftermarket light because at the time I was using it a lot on airplanes or other locations where light was an issue. I didn't, however, feel like Nintendo put out a substandard product and the fact that they released a hardware revision that addressed not only the light issue, but certain ergonomic and battery issues, seemed like a responsible approach to me and not some kind of cash in that punished early adopters.

Seriously? The original GBA had a horrible screen. I had one, and I could barely stand to play the thing unless I was directly under a bright lamp, which is inconvenient. The Lynx, Game Gear, Turbo Express, and Nomad were all backlit. The Game.com Pocket Pro was frontlit, and I know that system sucks but the screen was pretty decent. Neo Geo Pocket Color, while lacking a light, had a very well-designed screen that was easy to see in a variety of lighting conditions (but not in the dark, obviously). So that's at least six dead portables with better visibility than the original GBA. Except GBA wasn't just "not as good", it was really bad. My mother, who used to play my Game Gear all the time, tried it and her response was, "you need young eyes to see this thing". Well, I had young eyes but I still didn't like it. I tried three different light attachments and none worked to my satisfaction; they all lit the screen very unevenly.

I bought a Game Boy Player on day 1 and never looked back.

[Bojay1997]

Seriously? The original GBA had a horrible screen. I had one, and I could barely stand to play the thing unless I was directly under a bright lamp, which is inconvenient. The Lynx, Game Gear, Turbo Express, and Nomad were all backlit. The Game.com Pocket Pro was frontlit, and I know that system sucks but the screen was pretty decent. Neo Geo Pocket Color, while lacking a light, had a very well-designed screen that was easy to see in a variety of lighting conditions (but not in the dark, obviously). So that's at least six dead portables with better visibility than the original GBA. Except GBA wasn't just "not as good", it was really bad. My mother, who used to play my Game Gear all the time, tried it and her response was, "you need young eyes to see this thing". Well, I had young eyes but I still didn't like it. I tried three different light attachments and none worked to my satisfaction; they all lit the screen very unevenly.

I bought a Game Boy Player on day 1 and never looked back.

Ok, but what does any of that have to do with the OP? Let's assume for a second that the GBA was substandard because there were other systems out there with better screens for the price. Of course, we would have to ignore the fact that all of the systems you listed had been discontinued long before the GBA was released (unless you count the Majesco Game Gear re-release), had poor battery life, were generally more expensive at release and generally left everyone who bought them with systems that lacked any additional software support. Heck, for some like the NGP and NGPC, the systems were only supported for a year or so each. The Lynx had two revisions itself within a very short period of time as did the Game.com. Why is a system that was released over 11 years ago and supported with some pretty great games for almost seven years relevant in any way to the fact that Nintendo released a pretty great handheld in the 3DS admittedly at too high of a price and is now releasing a model identical in every way except for a slightly larger screen at just $30 more? Similarly, how does this support in any way the claim that Nintendo repeatedly releases substandard products? I really don't understand this whole line of argument and if everyone is just upset about the GBA, that's fine but completely irrelevant to this entire thread.

[j_factor]

Ok, but what does any of that have to do with the OP?

I believe the original GBA was intentionally gimped so that they could come out with a fixed model later. While the SP also had a built-in battery and a clamshell design, it would not have been as compelling to upgrade if the original GBA didn't have such a shitty screen. We are seeing, potentially, the same thing happening here, albeit to a lesser degree.

The 3DS really should have had dual analog. When the PSP came out, every single review of the system complained about the lack of a second analog nub, and now the Vita has it. So they should have known better. The fact that they went to the extraordinary step of creating a convoluted add-on was striking as it seemed like Nintendo was acknowledging their design flaw. News of the first 3DS hardware revision just a year after the system's launch sounded like an opportunity: they could nip this problem in the bud by including a second analog pad, and then between that and the Circle Pad Pro, over time most 3DS owners would have dual analog. Instead it's just an XL version with no other improvements. Why? So they can sell the Circle Pad Pro XL version (not announced yet but you know it's coming), and then two years from now, they can come out with the 3DS Dual Analog, and six months after that the 3DS XL Dual Analog.

[Bojay1997]

I believe the original GBA was intentionally gimped so that they could come out with a fixed model later. While the SP also had a built-in battery and a clamshell design, it would not have been as compelling to upgrade if the original GBA didn't have such a shitty screen. We are seeing, potentially, the same thing happening here, albeit to a lesser degree.

The 3DS really should have had dual analog. When the PSP came out, every single review of the system complained about the lack of a second analog nub, and now the Vita has it. So they should have known better. The fact that they went to the extraordinary step of creating a convoluted add-on was striking as it seemed like Nintendo was acknowledging their design flaw. News of the first 3DS hardware revision just a year after the system's launch sounded like an opportunity: they could nip this problem in the bud by including a second analog pad, and then between that and the Circle Pad Pro, over time most 3DS owners would have dual analog. Instead it's just an XL version with no other improvements. Why? So they can sell the Circle Pad Pro XL version (not announced yet but you know it's coming), and then two years from now, they can come out with the 3DS Dual Analog, and six months after that the 3DS XL Dual Analog.

In other words, you have no support at all for your argument other than pure speculation. Fair enough.

[j_factor]

In other words, you have no support at all for your argument other than pure speculation. Fair enough.

If and when I am proven right and Nintendo makes the announcement, I will be sure to refer you to this thread. If and when I am proven wrong, the 3DS is nearing the end of its lifespan and no such thing is announced, feel free to do the same. I am not a betting man but I'm confident the odds are in my favor. I am also confident that if/when it happens, you will find some way to defend it.

[Bojay1997]

If and when I am proven right and Nintendo makes the announcement, I will be sure to refer you to this thread. If and when I am proven wrong, the 3DS is nearing the end of its lifespan and no such thing is announced, feel free to do the same. I am not a betting man but I'm confident the odds are in my favor. I am also confident that if/when it happens, you will find some way to defend it.

Actually, even if a new version of the 3DS is released with a second analog stick, it doesn't prove your point. They have already made a cheap second analog stick option available, so people who already have the launch 3DS already have an easy and cheap option if that hardware revision ever comes to fruition. If Nintendo really was as nefarious as you claim, they never would have released the $20 analog stick and instead waited to just release a whole new handheld or simply forced developers to include second stick support in every game.

Did Microsoft intentionally make a controller for the first Xbox that was too large for many people just so they could force people to buy a replacement $50 controller? Did Sony fail to include rumble on the original Six Axis because they intended to add it down the road so they could sell more $50 controllers? I doubt it. Comapnies aren't all knowing and they make compromises to save on manufacturing costs and keep MSRP lower. They also get into weird situations like Sony did with the patent holders to rumble or Microsoft did with the defect that caused the RROD issue. Ultimately, companies want to sell as many of a product as they can for as long as they can. Redesigns that add features mean that you go through the whole cost cycle again where early products have a lower profit margin than the ones further down the road. Heck, the Wii was largely unchanged up until the last year or so where features were taken away, not added. Following your theory, wouldn't Nintendo have been expected to add something small just to move more systems? Instead with Motion Plus they gave you the option of either a bundled upgrade with a game, a stand alone $20 upgrade or a whole new controller. I don't recall Sony doing that for SixAxis owners.

[j_factor]

Actually, even if a new version of the 3DS is released with a second analog stick, it doesn't prove your point.

That pretty much is my point.


They have already made a cheap second analog stick option available, so people who already have the launch 3DS already have an easy and cheap option if that hardware revision ever comes to fruition. If Nintendo really was as nefarious as you claim, they never would have released the $20 analog stick and instead waited to just release a whole new handheld or simply forced developers to include second stick support in every game.

I'm not claiming that Nintendo is "nefarious". I am simply stating my opinion that a second analog stick should have been included. Failing that happening from the beginning due to oversight, it should have begun to be included at the soonest feasible juncture, which is now. I see this as a missed opportunity. I'm not sure how you think offering a convoluted and obviously rushed analog stick attachment disproves my assertion that they should be including a second analog stick. I cited that as part of my point.


Did Microsoft intentionally make a controller for the first Xbox that was too large for many people just so they could force people to buy a replacement $50 controller?

The original "Duke" Xbox controller design was the product of focus group testing -- Microsoft was pretty transparent about this. When reaction to the controller was negative, Microsoft stepped up and released a new one less than six months after launch, and made it the standard pack-in controller less than a year after launch. I think they handled that pretty well. Also, the Duke was not missing any functionality, it was just poorly received due to its shape and layout.


Did Sony fail to include rumble on the original Six Axis because they intended to add it down the road so they could sell more $50 controllers?

No, they left rumble out because they were going through major litigation with Immersion Technologies. This was also at the peak of Sony's arrogance, when they believed they could shit in a box and people would buy it. They got, and well deserved, tons of sharp criticism for asinine statements like "vibration is a last gen feature", and claiming that it would interfere with the Six Axis tilt sensor (clearly a lie). They had their heads really far up their asses, and I don't doubt that they seriously intended to never release a Dual Shock 3. Even so, when they did come out with a Dual Shock 3, they quickly discontinued the Six Axis entirely and made the DS3 the standard pack-in controller as well. So they did the right thing in the end.


Redesigns that add features mean that you go through the whole cost cycle again where early products have a lower profit margin than the ones further down the road.

No it doesn't. The core hardware is the same.


Heck, the Wii was largely unchanged up until the last year or so where features were taken away, not added.

Not true -- they made the Motion Plus controller the standard pack-in for the system. As they should have.


Following your theory, wouldn't Nintendo have been expected to add something small just to move more systems?

They lowered the price and started offering more of a value bundle by including Wii Sports Resort. I think there are a couple of different bundles you can get now. But I'm not really sure what this has to do with anything. The Wii controller was not missing anything when it came out. While a good number of people don't like motion controls period, for the most part the controller was positively received. Motion Plus was not an obvious upgrade or fixing a clear deficiency. Nor did it come hot on the heels of the Wii launch. They didn't exclude the Motion Plus from a new version of the system or controller.

[Bojay1997]

That pretty much is my point.



I'm not claiming that Nintendo is "nefarious". I am simply stating my opinion that a second analog stick should have been included. Failing that happening from the beginning due to oversight, it should have begun to be included at the soonest feasible juncture, which is now. I see this as a missed opportunity. I'm not sure how you think offering a convoluted and obviously rushed analog stick attachment disproves my assertion that they should be including a second analog stick. I cited that as part of my point.



The original "Duke" Xbox controller design was the product of focus group testing -- Microsoft was pretty transparent about this. When reaction to the controller was negative, Microsoft stepped up and released a new one less than six months after launch, and made it the standard pack-in controller less than a year after launch. I think they handled that pretty well. Also, the Duke was not missing any functionality, it was just poorly received due to its shape and layout.



No, they left rumble out because they were going through major litigation with Immersion Technologies. This was also at the peak of Sony's arrogance, when they believed they could shit in a box and people would buy it. They got, and well deserved, tons of sharp criticism for asinine statements like "vibration is a last gen feature", and claiming that it would interfere with the Six Axis tilt sensor (clearly a lie). They had their heads really far up their asses, and I don't doubt that they seriously intended to never release a Dual Shock 3. Even so, when they did come out with a Dual Shock 3, they quickly discontinued the Six Axis entirely and made the DS3 the standard pack-in controller as well. So they did the right thing in the end.



No it doesn't. The core hardware is the same.



Not true -- they made the Motion Plus controller the standard pack-in for the system. As they should have.



They lowered the price and started offering more of a value bundle by including Wii Sports Resort. I think there are a couple of different bundles you can get now. But I'm not really sure what this has to do with anything. The Wii controller was not missing anything when it came out. While a good number of people don't like motion controls period, for the most part the controller was positively received. Motion Plus was not an obvious upgrade or fixing a clear deficiency. Nor did it come hot on the heels of the Wii launch. They didn't exclude the Motion Plus from a new version of the system or controller.

I guess I really don't understand your point. Didn't you argue that Nintendo intentionally "gimps" its products? How does that square with your claim that they missed an opportunity here? If anything, this just shows that they don't think the second analog stick is that big of a deal and that the 3DS is fine as it is. It seems like if Nintendo was intentionally gimping its products, this second stick revision would have been their first hardware update, not a larger screen that will be sold in parallel with the original size 3DS. Similarly, if they felt the second analog stick was so essential, they wouldn't have made the $20 add-on a Nintendo store/Gamestop exclusive and they probably would have sold it as part of a game bundle.

Your argument about the Wii also seems to contradict the whole product gimping claim. If Motion Plus didn't fix a deficiency (I would argue it was aimed squarely at competing with a superior product in the Sony Move so at a minimum, it was targeted towards a perceived deficiency) then doesn't that prove that the Wii was never gimped at all and that Nintendo doesn't make a practice of gimping their products? It seems like the Wii would have been a strong candidate for this business practice since it sold massive volumes and had a very eager audience for at least the first 2-3 years of release.

I just think Nintendo is the same as every other manufacturer. They make choices and take chances and sometimes they make an error and sometimes things just work perfectly. I certainly have no issue with Nintendo or any other company revising their products, especially when they generally maintain software backwards compatibility for many more years than their competitors. I also like that Nintendo takes chances, whether with Virtual Boy or motion control or 3D. I wish Microsoft and Sony would do the same on a more regular basis. At least it would keep things interesting as we move to a digital only future.

[heybtbm]

Oops. It looks like the new 3DS XL isn't just bigger, it's better than the 3DS tiny. Much better...

http://kotaku.com/5921563/first-3ds-xl-hands+on-previews-report-improved-3d-clear-graphics

[substantial_snake]

Oops. It looks like the new 3DS XL isn't just bigger, it's better than the 3DS tiny. Much better...

http://kotaku.com/5921563/first-3ds-xl-hands+on-previews-report-improved-3d-clear-graphics

I saw this recently on Gaf as well, the video of it running in real time definitely shows off that gorgeously huge screen. Still not happy with the battery life or lack of another circle pad but that made it much more appealing.

I really wanna hold it to see weather the ergonomic issues have been sorted, though it looks as though the Dpad is much easier to use with a bit of console actually underneath it.

Now I really want one in that bronze two tone they used on the DSiXL. lol

[Tupin]

So is the 3DS XL matte? I prefer my handhelds to be matte so they don't become fingerprint magnets.

[j_factor]

I guess I really don't understand your point.

"a second analog stick should have been included. Failing that happening from the beginning due to oversight, it should have begun to be included at the soonest feasible juncture"

I don't know how I can distill that any further or make that more clear.


Didn't you argue that Nintendo intentionally "gimps" its products? How does that square with your claim that they missed an opportunity here?

That's not contradictory. They missed an opportunity to release an un-gimped product.


If anything, this just shows that they don't think the second analog stick is that big of a deal and that the 3DS is fine as it is.

Perhaps they do. I disagree.


It seems like if Nintendo was intentionally gimping its products, this second stick revision would have been their first hardware update, not a larger screen that will be sold in parallel with the original size 3DS.

That makes no sense. That's the exact opposite of the case.


Similarly, if they felt the second analog stick was so essential, they wouldn't have made the $20 add-on a Nintendo store/Gamestop exclusive and they probably would have sold it as part of a game bundle.

I'm not saying Nintendo feels the second analog stick is essential. I'm saying I feel it's essential.


Your argument about the Wii also seems to contradict the whole product gimping claim. If Motion Plus didn't fix a deficiency (I would argue it was aimed squarely at competing with a superior product in the Sony Move so at a minimum, it was targeted towards a perceived deficiency) then doesn't that prove that the Wii was never gimped at all and that Nintendo doesn't make a practice of gimping their products?

I never said the Wii was gimped. In fact, I said the opposite. The Wii was handled well, and the Motion Plus upgrade was done right. I just wish they were handling the Circle Pad in a similar way.

[substantial_snake]

So is the 3DS XL matte? I prefer my handhelds to be matte so they don't become fingerprint magnets.

One of the French first hand previews mentioned this:

"There's a coat in the unit (not fully matte) that gives it a "deluxe plastic imitating metal" look"

I know what you mean though, I love my Vita but the fingerprints drive me mad.

So now Nintendo has reported the 3DS XL is getting its own circle pad pro attachment....ROFL

[RCM]

According to Famitsu (via Kotaku) Nintendo has stated 3DS XL will receive a "circle pad pro" of its own: http://kotaku.com/5921919/the-3ds-xl-getting-its-own-circle-pad-pro. It's pretty weak that they didn't just include the second analog stick with the system redesign. It's obviously important to some gamers, and why Nintendo won't simply bite the bullet and offer the system they should have in the first place is beyond me.

[Frankie_Says_Relax]

...fingerprints drive me mad.

Aye.

Microfiber hand towels are my favorite thing in this generation of gloss finish plastic/touch screen gaming.

Practically no wet cleaning solution needed, ZERO abrasion to glass/plastics and they're totally washable/re-usable.

http://tips4savingmoney.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/Microfiber-Cloth.jpg

[Bojay1997]

Ok, I get it now. In your opinion they should have released either the original or the update with a second stick. It doesn't matter to you if Nintendo thinks so or not. I just went back and re-read your second post in this thread and that's really not what you said. You claimed Nintendo intentionally did this so they could sell a hardware revision with the built-in second stick down the road. I think the fact that they have now announced a second add-on circle pad is pretty strong evidence that such a revision isn't their business plan at all. Anyway, if all you're claiming is that it should have been included, I agree. I do not, however, agree with your claims earlier that this is part of Nintendo's master plan to sell a new revision with a second pad down the road.


"a second analog stick should have been included. Failing that happening from the beginning due to oversight, it should have begun to be included at the soonest feasible juncture"

I don't know how I can distill that any further or make that more clear.



That's not contradictory. They missed an opportunity to release an un-gimped product.



Perhaps they do. I disagree.



That makes no sense. That's the exact opposite of the case.



I'm not saying Nintendo feels the second analog stick is essential. I'm saying I feel it's essential.



I never said the Wii was gimped. In fact, I said the opposite. The Wii was handled well, and the Motion Plus upgrade was done right. I just wish they were handling the Circle Pad in a similar way.

[j_factor]

Ok, I get it now. In your opinion they should have released either the original or the update with a second stick. It doesn't matter to you if Nintendo thinks so or not. I just went back and re-read your second post in this thread and that's really not what you said.

Perhaps you're referring to a different post, because my second post in this thread is this:

"If they started including a second analog stick as standard, even if only in the XL for now, you can bet your ass that more games would start supporting it."

I stand by that comment 100%. If this wasn't true, the whole issue wouldn't matter as much.

On Playstation, when they released the dual analog controller as a purely optional controller, not that many games supported it. When they came out with the Dual Shock and started including it as the standard controller with new consoles, practically every game had analog support from then on.


You claimed Nintendo intentionally did this so they could sell a hardware revision with the built-in second stick down the road.

Well, yeah. I don't see how that's a controversial statement. This isn't going to be the last version of the 3DS. Do you really think the next 3DS after the XL will still not have a second circle pad?


I think the fact that they have now announced a second add-on circle pad is pretty strong evidence that such a revision isn't their business plan at all. Anyway, if all you're claiming is that it should have been included, I agree. I do not, however, agree with your claims earlier that this is part of Nintendo's master plan to sell a new revision with a second pad down the road.

It's not a "master plan". It's not an uncommon business strategy to leave a feature off in order to include it with the next model. The most recent iPhone doesn't support 4G/LTE because they want it as a major selling point for the next model. Same thing here. Nintendo could easily integrate a second circle pad if they wanted to, but they're not in a hurry. They feel that it could be a selling point for a new 3DS down the line.

[buzz_n64]

According to Famitsu (via Kotaku) Nintendo has stated 3DS XL will receive a "circle pad pro" of its own: http://kotaku.com/5921919/the-3ds-xl-getting-its-own-circle-pad-pro. It's pretty weak that they didn't just include the second analog stick with the system redesign. It's obviously important to some gamers, and why Nintendo won't simply bite the bullet and offer the system they should have in the first place is beyond me.

Damn you Nintendo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You should have just included the damn thing!!!

[RCM]

Damn you Nintendo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You should have just included the damn thing!!!

I'm glad we agree. Kiss us when you fuck us, Nintendo.

[Bojay1997]

Perhaps you're referring to a different post, because my second post in this thread is this:

"If they started including a second analog stick as standard, even if only in the XL for now, you can bet your ass that more games would start supporting it."

I stand by that comment 100%. If this wasn't true, the whole issue wouldn't matter as much.

On Playstation, when they released the dual analog controller as a purely optional controller, not that many games supported it. When they came out with the Dual Shock and started including it as the standard controller with new consoles, practically every game had analog support from then on.



Well, yeah. I don't see how that's a controversial statement. This isn't going to be the last version of the 3DS. Do you really think the next 3DS after the XL will still not have a second circle pad?



It's not a "master plan". It's not an uncommon business strategy to leave a feature off in order to include it with the next model. The most recent iPhone doesn't support 4G/LTE because they want it as a major selling point for the next model. Same thing here. Nintendo could easily integrate a second circle pad if they wanted to, but they're not in a hurry. They feel that it could be a selling point for a new 3DS down the line.

You're right, I miscounted your posts. It was the one immediately following the one about the GBA screen. In any event, I agree with you that almost all electronics companies improve their products over time, including the almighy Apple, often with things that were readily available to them at the time of the earlier device's release (i.e. 4G LTE, bigger or higher resolution screens, etc...). I just think in this particular case, Nintendo doesn't see a lot of need for the second analog stick, they don't really make a big deal of supporting it in their own games and frankly, third parties have only supported it on a limited basis. Would that change if it was built into the handheld? Maybe, but I have the circle pad add-on and it doesn't fundamentally improve the games I have that support it IMHO. While someday the second circle pad may be part of a redesign, I certainly don't think that will be the focus. I think you are much more likely to see a thinner device with a higher resolution screen and better battery life and perhaps other features before you see anything with a built-in second pad.

[kupomogli]

The 3DS XL isn't even out yet and Nintendo just announced the circle pad pro for it. Instead of just adding it on the XL, they decide they're going to sell the XL and then sell a cheap plastic add on for $20 a piece to everyone who's interested who buys the XL. Then in the future, they'll release the 3DS with the add on.

Nintendo is clearly holding back making the system complete so they can funnel extra money from their fanbase. You may say what you want, Bojay, but you're clearly avoiding the perspective of Nintendo doing anything wrong at all. You seem to be trying to make up a reason to make yourself feel better about the $250 that you spent, that Nintendo never meant to harm its fanbase in anyway, other than, you know, overpricing the 3DS because of fan reaction which they clearly admitted, and then now announcing the second analog stick shortly after announcing the XL, that in areas other than the US come with no charger, so it costs more in those area for people that don't have a DS or 3DS. Are you going the "Nintendo can do no wrong approach" and just avoiding any and all possibilities that this could in fact be in Nintendo's grand scheme of things all along or are you just that stupid?

The difference between the mention of Apple and what Nintendo is doing, is that previous models of the iphone and ipad can still use current applications. It's only after passing a certain period of time that a new OS is developed and older tech becomes unsupported. The same goes with Microsoft. Windows 7 is currently out right now, so they still support Vista troubleshooting, but anything older than Vista is unsupported, so any place that does troubleshooting will not be required to troubleshoot anything older than Windows Vista. Nintendo on the other hand is holding back content in order to make their fanbase pay out the ass in the future for something they've been asking for since day one.

[TonyTheTiger]

I just think in this particular case, Nintendo doesn't see a lot of need for the second analog stick, they don't really make a big deal of supporting it in their own games and frankly, third parties have only supported it on a limited basis. Would that change if it was built into the handheld? Maybe, but I have the circle pad add-on and it doesn't fundamentally improve the games I have that support it IMHO.

If it were built in then I think it's pretty certain it'd be better supported. Right now it seems like just an odd accessory that may or may not enhance a game. But if future 3DS revisions have it built in, devs are going to want to make full use of it to the point where it'll no longer be optional. Kind of like how Ape Escape required a dual shock, except weirder in some ways.

I'm guessing Nintendo doesn't want to wind up in a situation where, upon building in a second stick, they'd have to tell developers to still treat it as if it were an optional accessory to accomodate early revisions (defeating the purpose of it being built in) or let them use it fully and render the Circle Pad Pro a mandatory accessory for early revisions to play practically every future game. And given the Crcle Pad Pro's extremely odd placement, it may make playing many games a pain in the ass depending on how the extra stick is used. What may be perfectly comfortable on a dual stick 3DS (3DSDS?) could be awkward as hell on a 3DS+Circle Pad Pro.

[Bojay1997]

I don't think there is any evidence or support for the contention that companies choosing what to include on their handhelds or consoles as standard or not standard is either right or wrong. I own every current platform out and I have done so for the last 20 years. I paid $600 for my launch PS3, $400 for my launch 360 and $250 for my launch Wii. I also paid $250 for my 3DS and $250 for my Vita. I don't regret any of those purchases as every platform I own has some amazing titles available for it. Like I said before, attacking Nintendo for offering add-ons for their consoles or handhelds is completely ridiculous. Every electronics manufacturer adds features as time goes on and consumers get to decide whether it's worth paying to buy the newer model. My PS3 didn't come with a Dual Shock3 and Sony didn't offer me a credit for paying $600 for their system or for being stuck with a launch SixAxis. Similarly, Microsoft didn't give me a free Kinect or offer me any discount on it. Nintendo also didn't give me a free Motion Plus upgrade and only offered me some download games as a result of being a launch purchaser of the 3DS. Every one of the three major video game manufacturers does the same thing.

You Apple example is terrible. The current iPhone can't even support 4G LTE and is not able to be upgraded to do so. Similarly, when iOS6 is released in the Fall, anyone who owns the first iPad which is only two years old won't be able to use it. Apple is by far the most aggressive current consumer electronics company in moving people to newer devices. I love my Apple devices, but if any company should be attacked for putting their bottom line well ahead of consumer interests, it's Apple.


The 3DS XL isn't even out yet and Nintendo just announced the circle pad pro for it. Instead of just adding it on the XL, they decide they're going to sell the XL and then sell a cheap plastic add on for $20 a piece to everyone who's interested who buys the XL. Then in the future, they'll release the 3DS with the add on.

Nintendo is clearly holding back making the system complete so they can funnel extra money from their fanbase. You may say what you want, Bojay, but you're clearly avoiding the perspective of Nintendo doing anything wrong at all. You seem to be trying to make up a reason to make yourself feel better about the $250 that you spent, that Nintendo never meant to harm its fanbase in anyway, other than, you know, overpricing the 3DS because of fan reaction which they clearly admitted, and then now announcing the second analog stick shortly after announcing the XL, that in areas other than the US come with no charger, so it costs more in those area for people that don't have a DS or 3DS. Are you going the "Nintendo can do no wrong approach" and just avoiding any and all possibilities that this could in fact be in Nintendo's grand scheme of things all along or are you just that stupid?

The difference between the mention of Apple and what Nintendo is doing, is that previous models of the iphone and ipad can still use current applications. It's only after passing a certain period of time that a new OS is developed and older tech becomes unsupported. The same goes with Microsoft. Windows 7 is currently out right now, so they still support Vista troubleshooting, but anything older than Vista is unsupported, so any place that does troubleshooting will not be required to troubleshoot anything older than Windows Vista. Nintendo on the other hand is holding back content in order to make their fanbase pay out the ass in the future for something they've been asking for since day one.

[BetaWolf47]

The thing that worries me about the redesign, are Nintendo Ambassadors going to be able to migrate their exclusives over? It would be a big slap in the face for anyone who bought it in the first few months, then had to sit through a price drop, and then have to see a redesigned system with a better screen launched that doesn't allow them to bring their games over.

[Leo_A]

Considering your games are carried over right now if you transfer them to another 3DS, I don't see any reason for giving it even a second thought.

[dairugger]

Perhaps you're referring to a different post, because my second post in this thread is this:

"If they started including a second analog stick as standard, even if only in the XL for now, you can bet your ass that more games would start supporting it."

I stand by that comment 100%. If this wasn't true, the whole issue wouldn't matter as much.

On Playstation, when they released the dual analog controller as a purely optional controller, not that many games supported it. When they came out with the Dual Shock and started including it as the standard controller with new consoles, practically every game had analog support from then on.



Well, yeah. I don't see how that's a controversial statement. This isn't going to be the last version of the 3DS. Do you really think the next 3DS after the XL will still not have a second circle pad?



It's not a "master plan". It's not an uncommon business strategy to leave a feature off in order to include it with the next model. The most recent iPhone doesn't support 4G/LTE because they want it as a major selling point for the next model. Same thing here. Nintendo could easily integrate a second circle pad if they wanted to, but they're not in a hurry. They feel that it could be a selling point for a new 3DS down the line.

the thing about the psx was that the controller could be unplugged, so upgrading to two sticks was as easy as buying a new controller. i wonder how it wouldve played out tho if the controllers couldnt be unplugged.. hard to say i guess.

i think nintendo doesnt want to put a second pad into it so as not to confuse the not so savy game moms, well that and if they did introduce a second pad id be willing to bet people who have the original 3ds would be pissed! just my thoughts tho.

[chicnstu]

Including the second circle pad would have been nice, but I don't see it as a big problem. Almost all games released so far on 3DS work well without a second circle pad. Kid Icarus with touch controls is quicker than analog sticks, Zelda and Mario have cameras designed for one circle pad use, and so far there isn't much western shooter support. RE: Revelations is more comfortable with the CPP, but has other options that work fine.

There are a couple other problems. What would Nintendo do with the ZL and ZR buttons that are included on the CPP? And, even if Nintendo did include a second circle pad on the 3DS XL, this same anger topic would still exist, though with the discussion being about how Nintendo should have included a second circle pad on the first model instead of "cashing in" making people buy a second 3DS. It's better for their image right now that both models have the same abilities.

[JSoup]

So, has a solid release date been set yet, aside from just 'sometime in August'?

Edit: A little Wikipedia searching lists the release as the 19th. Thankfully, Wikipedia is known for being right all the time forever.

[BetaWolf47]

I'm not worried about their choice not to include the second Circle pad with the system. I feel that would've made the system too wide to fit anywhere conveniently. The size of the system doesn't really leave much room for add-ons. If it were a simple redesign like the DS Lite, I'd be furious about it. Perhaps I'll still hold off and not buy a system just yet, and wait for a third version. That's the thing that I personally find disappointing, that it's not a "Lite" or "i" version of the system.

[otaku]

glad I backed out on buying a 3DS at launch (had one on layaway) not only did the price drop substantially but now this! can't wait to finally get one sometime down the road (here's hoping in six months or so tops) for now the wii being my only console it is responsible for keeping me entertained

[Nature Boy]

It's funny, I'm way more cautious of buying a Nintendo portable than I am a Sony portable, even though I own multiple versions of each of their last consoles.

For me, I've avoided the 3DS in part because I've grown a little tired of playing the same games over and over again (Mario Kart 7, although I'm sure is great, is still Mario Kart, which I've already played on 5-6 different consoles), but mostly because the DSi XL was *such* a big improvement over the original DS, I felt slighted for owning an original DS (crummy screen, bulky design).

The 2000 was nicer (slimmer, better screen), but it didn't make me feel like purchasing the 1000 was a waste like the original DS felt like. Don't ask me why I bought a Go - that was just the collector in me :)

In my opinion though, when consumers get angry at Nintendo or Sony for pulling this stuff, they're really just angry at themselves for not being smarter, but of course they can't blame themselves...

(You buy the machine because you wanted the machine - if you start playing mind games about what revision will be released and when with an organization you have no interaction with, you have lost before you even started playing)