NES toaster vs. top loader

[Flam]

Okay, so about a year ago I rediscovered my love for Nintendo I had when I was younger. I've always had systems (Atari 2600, NES, SEGA Genisis, N64 and Dreamcast) but have always viewed my fondest gaming years with the NES. Anyway, after being out of gaming for a long time I bought an NES and have been having alot of fun rediscovering old games and what not. My question is about the NES top loader. I never had one of these as a kid, but wanted to know if this system is one I need to look into purchasing. Is it more durable than my toaster design? Is this something that is more of a collectors thing, or is it a system that most die hard NES fans own? My system now is working fine, but again I don't know about the longevitey as compared to the top loader. Again, I'm partial to the toaster because that's what I grew up with, however I might look into making a switch if it's worth it in the long run. Any input is appreciated.

[Urzu402]

Okay, so about a year ago I rediscovered my love for Nintendo I had when I was younger. I've always had systems (Atari 2600, NES, SEGA Genisis, N64 and Dreamcast) but have always viewed my fondest gaming years with the NES. Anyway, after being out of gaming for a long time I bought an NES and have been having alot of fun rediscovering old games and what not. My question is about the NES top loader. I never had one of these as a kid, but wanted to know if this system is one I need to look into purchasing. Is it more durable than my toaster design? Is this something that is more of a collectors thing, or is it a system that most die hard NES fans own? My system now is working fine, but again I don't know about the longevitey as compared to the top loader. Again, I'm partial to the toaster because that's what I grew up with, however I might look into making a switch if it's worth it in the long run. Any input is appreciated.

The Top Loader is more reliable, but doesnt have composite out. The toaster is a pain to get to work but has composite out. Thats pretty much the difference, so do you go for ease of getting games to work, or do you want video quality over that?

[HyruleHero]

Okay, so about a year ago I rediscovered my love for Nintendo I had when I was younger. I've always had systems (Atari 2600, NES, SEGA Genisis, N64 and Dreamcast) but have always viewed my fondest gaming years with the NES. Anyway, after being out of gaming for a long time I bought an NES and have been having alot of fun rediscovering old games and what not. My question is about the NES top loader. I never had one of these as a kid, but wanted to know if this system is one I need to look into purchasing. Is it more durable than my toaster design? Is this something that is more of a collectors thing, or is it a system that most die hard NES fans own? My system now is working fine, but again I don't know about the longevitey as compared to the top loader. Again, I'm partial to the toaster because that's what I grew up with, however I might look into making a switch if it's worth it in the long run. Any input is appreciated.

Both great systems....The toaster is more readily available. You can find a top loader on eBay but it will cost you a little, not crazy but a little. Top loader is only RF output unless you know to mod. THE TOASTER is both RF and AV compatible. The top loader is more durable and you will have an easier time getting the games to work, but if you maintain your toaster it will work fine also. You can also buy a new 72 pin connector for the toaster on eBay for like $10. This is the what the games plug into, it's an easy fix to get your toaster working like a champ. If you have a Game Genie you want use on your NES, using it on the top loader is troublesome. The end of the Game Genie is too thick for the top loader. Gallon actually made an adapter, very rare, most likely you cannot find and if you do will be pricey. You are fine with your toaster but if you can find a top loader for a good price, they are fun to have. This is just my opinion, hope it helps

[treismac]

All four of my Toasters works great since I keep them as well as my games clean. I also took the NES10 Chip out of commission in all but one of them, which kills the blinking. It is an easy enough operation with the right tools, and I can't recommend it highly enough to those who use the original NES. The Top Loader's appeal to me is strictly as an interesting addition to my NES collection that I occasionally wipe the dust off of (literally and figuratively) or show to polite friends who feign an interest in my collection. Functionally speaking, I hate its lack of AV outs and "jail bars" (vertical lines). I am thankful, however, for the dogbone controllers that came out with it as they meld with my hands much more sweetly than the original controllers do.

[CRTGAMER]

Definitely a toaster for the Composite over RF. Durability is not as big an issue now compared to when the NES first came out. A toaster will not get the eject/insert cart swap mileage since other consoles are on the table competing for play time. One thing is never leave a game cart plugged in if not in use. Any consoles connector springs will "remember" the new tension, with the toaster putting the worse pressure. Just clean any cart contact you buy before you pop them in.

Also do not use a Game Genie with a Toaster, the thicker PCB connector going in at an angle is the quickest way to kill a NES console connector.

[sloan]

If you are interested in playing PAL games in your NTSC NES front loader, forget about it. It can be modified to do so by disabling 10NES, but is work. The top loader does not have 10NES so any region NES games will play in it fine. There are some PAL exclusive games, so this is worth considering.

Off topic: Where did you come up with the name "Flam"? Just wondering.

[Flam]

Flam is an old nick name, and before you ask, no not that is not a picture of me either.

I think I'm going to stay with the toaster, it's what I grew up playing, plus I'd rather have the good visual anyway. I've done research and know how to keep my games clean and I have some back up 72 pin connectors. Maybe the next step would be to get that 10chip out. If someone could give me insight on that I'd appreciate it. Is there a tutorial on line on how to do it, if it's too hard and might damage my system I might just leave it alone. Plus my system slides into a small self, if I was to get the toap loader, the system would be too tall to fit and I'd have to rearrage. Bottom line, I'm going to be militant about keeping my sysstem clean and it will all work out.

Thanks for all you input!

[Firebrand118]

for the casual player the toploader is probably the best choice as it is very reliable, even if your game is dirty it will most likely work. The vertical bars are a pain but you get used to them after awhile. The toaster using composite out looks much better but most are difficult to get to work due to a design flaw where the NES pins become bent from games being pushed down. You can remedy that by replacing the 72-pin connector but you will have to disassemble the NES to do that. I prefer the toaster because of the quality personally but I know many who swear by the toploader. A lot comes down to personal preferance really, what means more to you reliability or quality.

[Schiggidyd]

It is unlikely, but I had a big pile of RF adapters, over 15, most of them gave me the average crappy signal.
However, a very small amount of them were able to give me a very nice signal, I honestly couldn't tell the video quality difference.
I regret not keeping this RF adapter and hooking up my Top-Loader.
It comes down to luck, I think the latest models of RF adapters were built better.

[treismac]

Maybe the next step would be to get that 10chip out. If someone could give me insight on that I'd appreciate it. Is there a tutorial on line on how to do it, if it's too hard and might damage my system I might just leave it alone.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VTIE9QlDppE

I bought jewelry pliers just to take the pin out. It's super small and snags that thin strip of metal perfectly. Don't worry about the surgery! It isn't difficult to do if you have the right tools and it is very much worth it.

[markusman64ds]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VTIE9QlDppE

I bought jewelry pliers just to take the pin out. It's super small and snags that thin strip of metal perfectly. Don't worry about the surgery! It isn't difficult to do if you have the right tools and it is very much worth it.

I cut the pin on the wrong side on two of my NES consoles. They don't work now.

But the one I did do it right on works great now! I also replaced the cartridge slot which is very easy to do. It's somewhat ironic that the game system with the worst cart slot is the easiest one to fix.

[Flam]

So explain to me again why taking out the NES10 chip is a good idea. I saw on the video that it said it allows unlicensed games to play, but then he said that over time it starts to block out licensed games? Will my NES eventually not recongnize games?

[BetaWolf47]

I am thankful, however, for the dogbone controllers that came out with it as they meld with my hands much more sweetly than the original controllers do.
Am I the only one who doesn't like the dogbone controllers? They must have the stiffest Nintendo dpad ever. It feels so unnatural.


It comes down to luck, I think the latest models of RF adapters were built better.
Those would be the ones that were included with the GameCube RF adapter kit then. I actually have three RF adapters, and they're all different.

[Flam]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VTIE9QlDppE

I bought jewelry pliers just to take the pin out. It's super small and snags that thin strip of metal perfectly. Don't worry about the surgery! It isn't difficult to do if you have the right tools and it is very much worth it.


Where did you find these pilers? At Lowes or Home Depot?

[Aussie2B]

If you are interested in playing PAL games in your NTSC NES front loader, forget about it. It can be modified to do so by disabling 10NES, but is work. The top loader does not have 10NES so any region NES games will play in it fine. There are some PAL exclusive games, so this is worth considering.

Thanks for sharing that info, that's cool to know. I've actually had a PAL game running on my toploader before, when I had a friend from Europe staying over. I was really surprised that it worked; I had assumed that no PAL games would work on a US NES. I had no idea that the toploader was the only version of NES that could run PAL games straight out of the box.

Anyway, I have two toploaders and one original NES. I definitely prefer the original NES in terms of picture quality, but I think it's essential to have one that was well-maintained over the years, otherwise you're better off with a toploader. The one I have now is the second original NES I've had, and the first was nothing but frustration. No matter how well you clean your system and your games, a worn out original NES is still going to give you grief, even more so if you're trying to get it to run worn down games. A lot of people will say at that point "Oh, just get a new 72-pin." The problem there, though, is that just about all of those are cheap crap and only provide a temporary fix. They often start out so incredibly tight that it's not good for your games, not to mention the struggle to jam them in and yank them out, and once they start loosening up, it's just a downward slide until they get too loose, just like how the system was originally. I was lucky enough to find both a CIB original NES and CIB toploader at a garage sale a few years back, both looking as if they've never even been used before, so now that I have an original NES in fantastic shape, I can finally really enjoy its composite output. Although even it doesn't work flawlessly. My more worn out games can still take a lot of tries.

Same goes for the toploader, really. Some people make it out to be some sort of Superman of a system, but just as people can have problems with a SNES, Genesis, N64, etc., the toploader, even when cleaned and with clean games, won't always work 100%. I get failed attempts quite regularly (on my original used toploader; the mint one is more of a collectible than anything), but it's overall reliable enough to not cause frustration. The likelihood of a game working right off the bat is pretty high, and even with failed attempts, I'll usually get it going in a couple reinsertions. Of course, if you only buy really mint carts that look like they were barely played, you'll probably have a better success rate than me.

[treismac]

So explain to me again why taking out the NES10 chip is a good idea.

You wouldn't remove the entire chip, just one of the pins. I will not get into the technical aspects. It suffices to say that the chip purpose was to block out unlicensed NES games that did not have a corresponding chip, which was inside of licensed games, that acted as a key to communicate with the system's lockout chip, telling it to "play" the game. Overtime, the dirt and grime that covered the contacts of the games would disrupt this communication, causing the NES10 lockout chip to block licensed games by mistake. Read the article in the link below for more indepth info:

http://nesdev.parodius.com/nlockout.txt


Will my NES eventually not recongnize games?

The blinking on the television is the NES not recognizing games. A clean system and games should prevent this, but taking the lockout chip out of commission seals the deal.

[Aussie2B]

But if dirt or whatever else is preventing proper contact, it's not going to play anyway. Instead of a blinking grey/blue/etc. screen, it'll just be a solid grey/blue/etc. screen, just as the toploader does. You could theorize that in some cases the dirt is solely blocking communication with the chip, but I'd venture to guess that most instances of failed communication are across the board.

[The 1 2 P]

Get the toploader. It was no fun as a child having to constantly tinker with the toaster Nes trying to get your games to work. Better yet get the Japanese toploader if you can because it has standard a/v inputs. But it's a bit pricey though.

[A.C. Sativa]

This is why I love emulators. I have a toaster-style NES, but I'd rather just blow $15 on a USB SNES pad (works with the NES, SNES, Genesis/SMS/32X/Sega CD, and to some extent the N64), and play the games on this. Nearly 2000 games, all in 720p, no blinking or hadware failures or any of that crap, and I don't even have to get up when I want to play something different.

Few points on real hardware:

You can hook your top-loader to most DVD players (and VCRs), and hook that to the TV using the composites. Not perfect, but it works really well. Works on toaster models too, this is how I have mine hooked up.

I have 2 video game stores near me that will do the required surgery to bypass the lockout chip. Best to let the experts do it if taking shit apart isn't your thing. Costs about $10-20, a little extra cash under the table will get it done within an hour or so.

Buy a clone. My buddy has an FC Console, so far it's worked fine with all the games we've tried on it (though the audio is very slightly off on a few games). The controllers that come with it are crap, but it will take any real NES pad. Stay away from any "multi-system" clone. Much cheaper than a top-loader and has composite outputs.

Supposedly, if you can find the game Little Red Hood, it will bypass the 10-NES chip (the game requires a normal NES game plugged to the top, Game Genie style, to run). I'm not believing it (in fact it really makes no sense), and even if it does work it's certainly not the most cost-effective way to do this, Little Red Hood is quite rare, therefore expensive. It's also a really horrible game. I've heard there's some trick where you can take apart one of the unlicensed games that "zaps" the 10-NES chip and somehow make an adapter out of that. Doubt it works, and even it it did it's about the most complicated way to go about it.

Best bet is either the first or third option...

[BlastProcessing402]

Top loader is only RF output unless you know to mod.

They're rare, but there are are unmodded top loaders with the AV multiport out there. Most were only used as replacements (people would send in the RF only one to Nintendo and get back one with AV out) but there are a few reports of people having bought the AV out version at places like Meijers back in the day. My cousins had one with AV out. I never knew it was anything special until just a couple years ago. I should probably ask them if they still have it someplace.

No, I'm not confusing it with the AV Famicom.

[Aussie2B]

What's the A/V like on those toploaders? Does the system take a generic A/V cable like the original NES, or do you have to use the Nintendo-specific A/V cable like with the SNES/N64/GameCube?

[treismac]

They're rare, but there are are unmodded top loaders with the AV multiport out there. Most were only used as replacements (people would send in the RF only one to Nintendo and get back one with AV out) but there are a few reports of people having bought the AV out version at places like Meijers back in the day. My cousins had one with AV out. I never knew it was anything special until just a couple years ago. I should probably ask them if they still have it someplace.

No, I'm not confusing it with the AV Famicom.

Probably nothing. Ask, man! I'd love to get my hands on one of those AV non-Famicom Top Loaders. Well... actually, I wouldn't turn away an AV Famicom in case there are any generous benefactors out there in DP Land with a spare one taking up too much closet space. :D

[Ace]

What's the A/V like on those toploaders? Does the system take a generic A/V cable like the original NES, or do you have to use the Nintendo-specific A/V cable like with the SNES/N64/GameCube?

I don't know how the video quality is on the Composite Top-Loader NES, but it does use Nintendo's multi-A/V out used up to the GameCube.


Well... actually, I wouldn't turn away an AV Famicom in case there are any generous benefactors out there in DP Land with a spare one taking up too much closet space. :D

You know what? Call me stupid, but although I own an AV Famicom, I wouldn't consider one due to one MAJOR problem (major for me as I do a lot of audio sampling): volume balance issues with games that have sound chips in them. The audio out of the AV Famicom's 2A03 gets considerably quieter when you play a game with a sound chip in the cartridge. Older Famicoms (motherboard revisions HVC-CPU-08 and older) and the Twin Famicom don't have this problem. I would honestly get a Twin Famicom over the AV Famicom, but there are still some things that bother me about the Twin Famicom:

1) Unnecessary low-pass filtering (the audio out of the Twin Famicom is VERY muffled - can be easily fixed by removing a ceramic capacitor near the white RCA plug)
2) Uneven volume levels between cartridges and Famicom Disk System games (this, I don't understand)
3) Vertical lines in the video output (can be reduced by adding a capacitor between pin 22 of the 2C02 and Ground)
4) Some AN-500R Twin Famicoms have distorted sound which is particularly bad when playing Famicom Disk System games

[Satoshi_Matrix]

I'm not after a flame war here. With respect to Ace, you should take his criticisms of the AV Famicom with a grain of salt. The guy is an audiophile who places extraordinary emphasis on extremely minor details. He's technically correct, I'm not disputing that, I'm simply pointing out that it does not have a "MAJOR problem" as he claims it does. In fact, it barely qualities as a minor problem - its more like a barely worth mentioning side note.

I've owned an AV Famicom for close to a decade now and have never had any problem with the AV's audio output volume levels. I've heard audio samples from the NES, Famicom 001, AV Famicom, TWIN, emulators and all manner of clones and can assure you that the differences are extremely minimal.

If you buy an AV Famicom I can almost garuntee you won't notice any volume differences whatsoever.

[MachineGex]

The biggest problem with the top-loader is the ghost-lines. Some TVs display them heavier than others, but they are noticeable on all TVs. If you have it Mod'ed, the lines go away and it looks great. I would not go with a top-loader unless it was modded.

TopLoader < Toaster < Toaster(with LockOut Chip disabled) < TopLoader Mod'ed

[theclaw]

Problem with AV Famicom is no eject button. Its stiff cartridge slot is an annoyance to remove the shorter-than-NES Famicom games from.

[SparTonberry]

Particularly, that depends a bit on the cart itself.
I've noticed my Bandai, and perhaps later Namco games (the big round blue ones) to require a bit more force to remove than say, Konami games. I had to practically yank the former out! :P

[treismac]

TopLoader < Toaster < Toaster(with LockOut Chip disabled) < TopLoader Mod'ed

Nice ^.

Out of curiosity, why would you place the Mod'ed Top Loader above the Lockout Chip disabled Toaster? Is it reliability of the games booting or performance?

[M.Buster2184]

Well everyone has their own opinion it seems. I got my top loader about 5 years ago and to be honest I haven't used my toaster model since. I know the A/V quality isn't as good, but I love being able to plug a game in and play it, not having to fidget with the NES. Other small bonuses are the dog bone controller, they are much more comfortable. Also I like that I can play PAL games without having to modify anything.

[MoxManiac]

I have both and I never use my top loader due to horrible RF output. As far as i'm concerned the toaster is better unless the top loader is modded with composite (which I want to do so bad)

To be honest, I've never had an issue with the toaster since I put in a new 72 pin, as long as i keep my games clean.

[MachineGex]

Nice ^.

Out of curiosity, why would you place the Mod'ed Top Loader above the Lockout Chip disabled Toaster? Is it reliability of the games booting or performance?

Simply because I have found toploaders to be a little easier to load games on. Even with new pins in the Toaster, they just don't seem to be as quick to play picky carts. Plus, some new 72 pins squeeze the carts toooooooo much. Making "pulling the cart out" difficult. In my opinion, both of the last two opinions I mentioned are great.

[Rickstilwell1]

Simply because I have found toploaders to be a little easier to load games on. Even with new pins in the Toaster, they just don't seem to be as quick to play picky carts. Plus, some new 72 pins squeeze the carts toooooooo much. Making "pulling the cart out" difficult. In my opinion, both of the last two opinions I mentioned are great.

I liked using the toploader better when I had one, but at this point since all I use is the Powerpak I kept a cheap toaster that I found and ended up being much cleaner than usual. It has its stock pins, but still doesn't usually flash unless a game isn't in the system. But now I miss my dogbone controller and want to buy one or two. Its so expensive to buy the controller by itself on ebay (not a remade knockoff) I might as well buy another toploader.

[Satoshi_Matrix]

seek out AV NES-101 modder AKAviolence. He's got his own site, sells his mods on ebay and here and a bunch of other places. He sells rough condition (but still working) offical dogbones for around $10 apiece.

[Flam]

just checked out his website, or which ever site was on top of a google search for "AV NES-101 modder". Those LED mods he did on the NES controllers are cool.

[Kirbz]

Toaster
Because Everyone Knows ALL Toaster's Toast Toast

[scooby105]

I like the original toaster NES the best. It needs occasional maintaining, but it's really not bad. I just finished giving mine a bit of a makeover today. Cleaned the 72 pin connector, disabled the lockout chip, added the sound mod for the PowerPak, added an LED to the controller, and added a "controller" so I can reset the NES from the couch. I'll do the stereo mod and perhaps add a couple headphone jacks when I've got some more spare time. I haven't done any tinkering in a while so it was nice to do again.


553355345535

[TeddyRuxpin]

I simply disassemble and clean the contacts on "toaster" NES systems, and fully clean games and they work just fine without having to buy a new pin connector. I end up selling the systems on ebay without having to invest more money in them to get them to work like new. It also gives me a chance to clean out any other dust or cob webs that may be in the system.

The best thing you can do for your front load NES is keep a properly cleaned game stored in it. This will keep the contacts clean.

[j_factor]

The Famicom Titler is the money system. If I had oodles of money to burn, I would buy one of these in an instant. Regular NES systems have really weak video IMO.

[Rickstilwell1]

seek out AV NES-101 modder AKAviolence. He's got his own site, sells his mods on ebay and here and a bunch of other places. He sells rough condition (but still working) offical dogbones for around $10 apiece.

His ebay account was disabled. I guess I'll have to look for him on forums for that.

[Flam]

The best thing you can do for your front load NES is keep a properly cleaned game stored in it. This will keep the contacts clean.


I thought this was a big no-no. I don't see how keeping a clean game in the system would keep the connector clean, I mean the system does close so I don't see how dirt or dust could get in when not in use.

[TeddyRuxpin]

I thought this was a big no-no. I don't see how keeping a clean game in the system would keep the connector clean, I mean the system does close so I don't see how dirt or dust could get in when not in use.

I've been doing it for years and my system is fine. You might just wanna do it with one that doesn't have battery backup. It might somehow screw that up? Unless you're storing it in a wet environment where it might rust the contacts together between the game and the system (then have to assume you must not care about it, if it's stored in such a place) I see no problem leaving a game in it. With a game inserted, it covers the contacts and keeps them clean. All I know is I've cleaned an NES and a few years later it's filthy from sitting closed up. If I leave something like Super Mario bros in it, a few years later it will still be clean.

Yeah, that's about how often I tended to play my video game stuff. I mostly stick to PC stuff. I have been selling almost all my consoles over the past 6 months or so.

[SparTonberry]

Doesn't leaving a game in wear out the pins?
Or is it only leaving a Game Genie in the console that is hazardous to the pins?

[MachineGex]

Hey scooby, How difficult was that reset switch mod? It seems straight forward, but I'm not sure about soldering to a board. Can you tap into the reset wires instead? BTW, great job!!!

Also, I have an each reset switch off of a NES, it would be cool to use that.

[treismac]

Doesn't leaving a game in wear out the pins?
Or is it only leaving a Game Genie in the console that is hazardous to the pins?

Game Genies can be rough on 72 pin connectors from my experience.

[scooby105]

Hey scooby, How difficult was that reset switch mod? It seems straight forward, but I'm not sure about soldering to a board. Can you tap into the reset wires instead? BTW, great job!!!

Also, I have an each reset switch off of a NES, it would be cool to use that.


I wouldn't see why you couldn't tap into the wires. The two points you solder to on the board are really easy to do. The points are far apart from one another and there isn't anything else around them. I thought about buying the reset button. They're around $5. The little red button was easier to do though.

The reset mod is really nice for use with the PowerPak. I like not having to get up to push the reset button to change games.

[ApolloBoy]

His ebay account was disabled. I guess I'll have to look for him on forums for that.
I also do top loader AV mods for $30 plus return shipping. I've done quite a few of 'em over the past year or so, PM me if you'd like to have it done!

[sloan]

I thought this was a big no-no. I don't see how keeping a clean game in the system would keep the connector clean, I mean the system does close so I don't see how dirt or dust could get in when not in use.

It is a big no-no. Any metal that comes into direct contact with another metal surface is essentially a battery and electrolysis is happening even with the power switched off. You don't even have to store it like that in a wet basement for it to happen. Unless you live in the arid Nevada desert, I would not recommend leaving a game inserted into any game console for any amount of time unless you are playing said game.

[SparTonberry]

I'm not certain on this, but I thought the original Game Boy hardware manual even recommended leaving a game inserted to function as a dust cover.

[treismac]

Where did you find these pilers? At Lowes or Home Depot?

Whoa... totally missed your question, Flam. My apologies. I bought the pliers at an art store called Michael's as neither Home Depot or Lowes had what I needed.. They are jewelry pliers for bead making necklaces and related projects.