New Atari 7800 Games.

[Aswald]

Recently I heard from AtariAge that several new games were available for the Atari 7800, including splendid-looking versions of Scramble and Moon Cresta.

So far, I'm waiting to see what happens with Opcode's ColecoVision version of Moon Cresta, but if my financial situation ever improves- it has not been this bad in a long time- I'll certainly purchase Scramble, along with Space Duel.

While watching these games on Youtube (this netbook can indirectly view such videos with Opera Mini 5) I couldn't help but think that back in the late 1980s the 7800 would have done so much better by specializing in older games. This was because it was a fact that most Atari 7800 owners were themselves older gamers, since after all we bought the 7800 for games like Joust and Xevious. It was obvious that the NES had the younger gamers, so Atari should have concentrated more on earlier games. There were also plenty of computer games as well (RPGs, games like Drol and Flip and Flop), so it always struck me as a lost opportunity- surely Atari-home already had the rights to many, or could have easily gotten them?

Guesswork, I guess, but even back then I didn't think the 7800 could ever match the NES the way they were trying it. It would have been nice to have had a system with many such classics, too.

[Greg2600]

I have moon cresta on 7800, done by PacManPlus. Great shooter.

As for focus, the 7800 would have still failed. The NES was lightyears ahead of it in games. Games most of the world had never experienced before, if they didn't have computers, and most did not.

[treismac]

While watching these games on Youtube (this netbook can indirectly view such videos with Opera Mini 5) I couldn't help but think that back in the late 1980s the 7800 would have done so much better by specializing in older games. This was because it was a fact that most Atari 7800 owners were themselves older gamers, since after all we bought the 7800 for games like Joust and Xevious. It was obvious that the NES had the younger gamers, so Atari should have concentrated more on earlier games. There were also plenty of computer games as well (RPGs, games like Drol and Flip and Flop), so it always struck me as a lost opportunity- surely Atari-home already had the rights to many, or could have easily gotten them?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ic0nvtNfDRM

Even if Atari had absolute classic arcade gold on the 7800, their marketing, as evidenced by this commercial, was clueless on how to fit into the post crash video game market alongside the NES. Interestingly enough, a keyboard and disk drive, which Atari claimed gave the XE the edge over Nintendo, both came out for the Famicom in Japan, but Nintendo of America didn't bother bringing them across the ocean because they realized that console gamers were clamoring for neither to enhance their video game playing experience. Too often the non-creative suits, who quite evidently understood nothing and appreciated even less about video games, mucked the hell out of Atari doing what they did so well- make and port wonderful video games to their systems. A real shame, actually...

Fair play to Atari for knocking R.O.B., though. Besides being a lovely Trojan Horse and side kick/foil for Pat the NES Punk, it really brought nothing but inept novelty to the gaming table. Just the same, R.O.B. looks way more badass guarding a video game collection than a XE keyboard.

[Leo_A]

As for focus, the 7800 would have still failed.

He wasn't suggesting that it would've won the console war.

He's just recognizing the strong points of the 7800 library (All the GCC arcade ports and these new ports from recent years by homebrew programmers that are reminiscent of what GCC was doing) and wishing there had been even more such projects done back in the day instead of wasted efforts like Touchdown Football and other attempts to directly compete with Nintendo and their dominance with 3rd parties that ultimately failed miserably.

Double or triple the older arcade ports, console ports of semi recent arcade style console classics like Ballblazer, combined with some of the more modern arcade ports that the 7800 was up to the task for (Commando for instance was done justice on the 7800) and you'd have an amazing 80's arcade gaming console with a nice sized library of classics that would still be worth playing today. Heck, get adventurous and even consider what they could've done had they released an arcade style controller with twin sticks and maybe even a built in track-ball and it would've been amazing. And of course the high score cartridge would've been a must instead of being left unreleased by Atari.

Too bad they didn't concentrate more on the arcade side of things. Could've been a nice niche to be in and made the system more profitable than it was (It's my understanding that the 2600 Jr. and 7800 were profitable endeavors despite Nintendo controlling most of the marketplace). Instead much of its potential was wasted trying to go head to head with Nintendo and their dominance once Atari realized this was still a lucrative market to be in instead of continuing the road that GCC and pre crash Atari had been going back in 1983/1984 as they designed the console and the initial crop of games. And crippling the audio output instead of incorporating a Pokey chip is still one of the most idiotic decisions in gaming history.

Can't say that I blame them for the way they went going after a slice of the market the NES had since it was the obvious way to go. But I wish they would've surrended the core of the market to Nintendo and instead focused on the 7800's arcade strengths and turned it into a thriving niche platform of arcade gaming. But at least guys like PacPanPlus are helping to realize that potential 25 years later with all these amazing homebrews of classics like Burgertime, Rip-Off, Scramble, and others.

[treismac]

Yo, Leo_A, correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Atari abandon the 7800 in favor of or, at the very least, refocus their attention on the Atari 800 computers? The Atari 8-bit library is supposed to be a mecca of golden age arcade goodness from what I've seen and read on the internet.

[sloan]

I bought 7800 Moon Cresta, and it is a good game, though not great. I forgot that it limits you to only one shot on-screen at any given time, ala Galaxian. I was hoping more for multiple shots at once, ala Galaga.

[treismac]

I forgot that it limits you to only one shot on-screen at any given time, ala Galaxian. I was hoping more for multiple shots at once, ala Galaga.

Once you've tasted Galaga's multiple shots it is impossible to (happily) return to the Galaxian and Space Invaders' single shot.

[Greg2600]

Leo, he wondered if the 7800 would have "done better" by catering to older games and gamers, and my response was and still is no. IMO, there was no market for retro gaming in 1986. Yes the 2600 continued to sell for several more years, but that was largely due to the games being sold for $10 everywhere. Anyone who was seriously interested in gaming wanted the newest stuff. The oldest gamers were only in their 20's at the time, and they wanted the new and cooler systems. Just about everyone I've ever discussed game buying with has the same story. They had an inferior system, and when they saw the NES or SMS or Amiga, they wanted that. Not to mention that both the SMS and NES had classic arcade ports which were heads and tails above anything the 7800 could produce.

What would have had to happen is Atari needed to shelve the 2600 immediately in 1986 when they rolled out the 7800 again. Then maybe you force people who favored simpler games to go with the 7800. But the games would have had to be sold at bargain basement prices. Why would you buy Pac-Man on the 7800 with inferior graphics and sound, when the NES version was far better?

[tom]

I have moon cresta on 7800, done by PacManPlus. Great shooter.

A The NES was lightyears ahead of it in games. Games most of the world had never experienced before, if they didn't have computers, and most did not.

Doubt that, we all know the real story, Nintendo had 99% of publishing houses monopolised by contract. A bit 'the communistic way'. Nintendo later lied in court saying anyone could develop for the NES and other consoles which wasn't so.

So if 7800 had the same frame as the NES (NES (Famicom) released 1983, 7800 supposed to be released 1984, but due to the sale of Atari it was a no-go as the Atari 7800 didn't belong to Atari), and no crash, Atari could have had more publishers and the 7800 would have been lightyears ahead.

By the time Tramiel managed to get the 7800 (1986), it was too late and Nintendo had sewn up all US software houses into their little monopolistic stable. Also, Tramiel never had the cash like Nintendo did, getting any software houses even to develop for the 7800 was a hard struggle.

BTW, Nintendo's AVS (original NES) failed twice in USA, so it wasn't plain sailing for Nintendo either.

Mind you all first (83/84) Atari titles were lightyears ahead over any simular released console game during the early 80s period. 7800 had Maria, Maria could shift any objects of any size in any directions with no slow down, Robotron over 80 objects on screen at the same time (no slowdown, no flicker), MS. Pac-Man, programmed for the 7800 by Bally themselves, arcade perfect, Joust, the riders consist of 16 different colours, upgradable cartridges (for sound or whatever)...etc. Nothing could match the 7800 in hardware power, not even the Famicom.

[tom]

Yo, Leo_A, correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Atari abandon the 7800 in favor of or, at the very least, refocus their attention on the Atari 800 computers? The Atari 8-bit library is supposed to be a mecca of golden age arcade goodness from what I've seen and read on the internet.

Atari didn't abandon the 7800. When Jack Tramiel purchased the troubled Warner Atari Inc. in 1984, the Atari 7800 wasn't included in the sale, as the property belonged to GCC, and due to monies owed from Warner GCC held on to the 7800.
Tramiel wanted the 7800 from the beginning.

[Greg2600]

Tom, the conversion is whether more classic arcade ports have helped the 7800? That's with it being released in 1986 as it was. OP wondered if they could have had a "niche" of sorts with them. I don't think so. People enjoined the constant fast moving evolution of the games. They didn't want to play Galaxian or Pac-Man anymore. The 7800 in my view has a library void of diversity. Very few games were programmed that weren't recycled arcade classics.

As for Nintendo, Atari could have sold the NES under it's name. They chose not to, and died as a result. Plus the Famicom, and the Master System, were better systems simply based on hardware. The 7800 had that horrible low resolution (high res was severely limited), and 2600 sound chip. The controllers stunk. It had RF only.

[tom]

Well, yes the SMS was the best 8-bit console based on hardware, it's Z80 no question, SMS rocks (had the best software too), but 7800 was second NES third, imho. NES fanboys don't see it that way, they even think NES is better than SMS based on hardware.

BTW, any Japanese style joypad stinks, as the controls are the wrong way 'round

[Leo_A]

Leo, he wondered if the 7800 would have "done better" by catering to older games and gamers, and my response was and still is no. IMO, there was no market for retro gaming in 1986.

Everyone that bought an Atari 7800 bought it on the merits of the brand name that was synonymous with arcade gaming and due to its library of recent hits like Centipede, Mario Brothers, Pole Position II, and others. They weren't buying it for things like the sucky attempts at 80's console flight simulators and such.

To suggest that it wouldn't of done better with even more of this type of material is nonsense. People largely weren't buying the games that were being released in an attempt to go head to head against the NES and most of those efforts were disliked then and are disliked today. All you have to do is look at what the most common 7800 games are and they're by and large the games that were being worked on in 1983 and 1984 of recent arcade hits.


Yes the 2600 continued to sell for several more years, but that was largely due to the games being sold for $10 everywhere.

The 2600 Jr. sold millions of consoles alone in the late 1980's. There was still a large market even for the 2600.


Anyone who was seriously interested in gaming wanted the newest stuff.

Anyone who was seriously interested in gaming wanted the newest stuff?

Explain then why things like Ms. Pac-Man cabinets, Galaga cabinets, and numerous other classics were popular enough where they were still common on location into the 1990's. Explain why the GCC arcade ports on the Atari 7800 sold so much better than all the attempts that were made to create NES style games like Scrapyard Dog. Or why many arcade classics did make their way home to the NES.

Other than the 13 year old kids back in 1986/1987, there were still masses of fans putting millions of quarters into the arcade cabinet of the past 5 years that were huge hits like Frogger. Heck, I remember when the local mall opened in 1990 or 1991. Aladdin's Castle had dozens of games and a solid 1/3 of them were hits and even a few of the more obscure classics like Tac-Scan from before 1985. And many of the rest were barely any newer than that and were things like Outrun. And most of the modern games were things like Hydra, Turbo Outrun, and Super Off-Road. Doubt there was more than three or four games at the time there from the 90's. among the dozens of arcade cabinets.

The 7800 surely would've performed better and be better respected today had it focused on arcade hits of the recent past (And remakes of older classics like Asteroids) instead of the futile effort that they undertook during most of the late 80's to get a slice of the NES pie with programming suffering from crippled budgets, Atari cheaping out on manufacturing cost as much as possible with few exceptions, and after Nintendo already had a lock on most of the market and the top 3rd party developers.


The oldest gamers were only in their 20's at the time, and they wanted the new and cooler systems. Just about everyone I've ever discussed game buying with has the same story. They had an inferior system, and when they saw the NES or SMS or Amiga, they wanted that.

That sounds more like the story for people that were kids back during the NES era. Go look around for stories at AtariAge and you'd find that the people that were kids during the glory years of the 2600 often stayed with the console, many bought the Atari 7800 or wanted it on the strength of those early arcade ports, almost universally they enjoyed arcade style experiences like Vanguard from SNK, etc. And many when they did want to take a step forward, it was usually into the computer world during the latter 1980's instead of NESLand.

Not every gamer during the latter 1980's was a NES owner or dreamt of a NES. Many of us from before that time in fact didn't even give that console a second glance during its heyday. Instead we often mistakingly blamed it for pushing Atari out of the console mainstream when in reality it was Atari that was largely responsible for its own decline.

I know I'm far from alone in not giving the NES any attention until after it was already gone.


Not to mention that both the SMS and NES had classic arcade ports which were heads and tails above anything the 7800 could produce.

SMS and NES had some decent arcade ports that are classics today. I was just playing NES Millipede for an example. But you're nuts to suggest that the 7800 was some sort of cripple in this area.

The only area the Atari 7800 was lacking when it comes to being able to produce nice versions of most arcade games from 1979-1985 or so was audio. And even with what apparantly amounted to 2600 audio hardware, they were still able to push out some pretty good audio in numerous instances like Pole Position II that sounded better than what we had become used to on the 2600.

And if they had just included a POKEY on the system itself instead of planning to include it on cartridges (Of which I think we only saw two of back in the day), it would've been no weakling in the audio department as well.

I agree with the original poster. Had Atari stuck with the arcade focus of the 7800, it would've sold a significant amount more of hardware and software.

[Atarileaf]

I can only speak from personal experience but in 1988 when I bought my NES, I was 19. Had I known about the 7800 at that time (for whatever reason I didn't know it existed until the 90's) I would have preferred it. I'm in the demographic of gamers who prefer the arcade style of gameplay - games where you simply play for a high score. Even now that I do have an NES, my library consists almost exclusively of arcade ports (and pinball games) - there is no Super Mario Brothers, Metroid, Zelda, or any of "must have classics" of the NES in my collection. I have no interest in them at all.

So I think I can safely say that a 7800 with a large library of arcade ports from the late 70's to mid 80's would have been exactly what I would have wanted as a gamer. I also think that had it been marketed this way as an alternative to the NES's style of gameplay, instead of a direct competitor, it would have had a shot with a substantial audience who did grow up with the 2600, colecovision, intellivision, etc and preferred arcade games.

As a side note, when I had my NES at 19, I played Duck Hunt almost exclusively. I never could stand playing SMB, still can't.

[treismac]

Man, I have to say that I am absolutely loving this thread! This is a big reason why DP brings so much joy to me as a retro gamer. Anyway, enough glowing. Let me jump into the mix. Fair warning: I don't mean to insult anyone with my rebuttals, analysis, and opinions. If I step on toes, please accept my apologies.


I know I'm far from alone in not giving the NES any attention until after it was already gone.

While I'm sure that you were not the lone gamer ignoring the Nintendo Entertainment System in the '80s and early '90s, my personal experience and raw data would suggest non-NES gamers during the halcyon days of the NES were a very small slice of the gaming market. During the 16-bit War I knew many kids who sided with either SNES or Genesis [rich friends had both and a Turbografx-16, but anyway...]. In the glory days of Atari I knew many kids who had either a Colecovision, Odyssey 2, Intellivision, or an Atari VCS. There was only one kid I knew who had a Sega Master System in my childhood and he probably begged his parents to buy him a NES after he moved from my neighborhood. Likewise, I knew only one girl who had a 7800, but she got a NES shortly after. It might well be that my experience of not knowing anyone (save the Sega Master System kid) who did not have a NES was unusual, but I truly doubt that the NES didn't dominate most neighborhoods in the late '80s.


Leo, he wondered if the 7800 would have "done better" by catering to older games and gamers, and my response was and still is no. IMO, there was no market for retro gaming in 1986.

I concur. Nostalgia ain't found in children. They want newer and better. Every kid I knew shelved their old system when they bought the next generation's system. Remember, arcades were once where it was at for the newest and most awesome gaming experience. In addition to having to wait for an arcade game to be ported to a home system, it would always have inferior graphics and lose content. Pac-Man on my 2600 was a far cry from the Pac-Man cocktail cabinet at my local Pizza Hut. Even if a port was close to its arcade counterpart in gameplay, the divide between the quality in graphics was varying degrees of heartbreaking. Gamers wanted arcade graphics and newer generation systems brought them closer and closer to home. Besides the graphics, the depth of the games started to expand after each generation. As ambitious as Adventure was for the 2600, it was no Zelda. Just the addition of one extra button made the experience of video games potentially so much richer. Before I had a NES I had the Commodore 64. After playing Mike Tyson's Punch-Out on the NES at a friend's house, I told my dad about how awesome it was and how I wanted it. Fight Night (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XJ5Y4numB08) was his answer. I liked the game just as I did the C64, but there was no real comparison between the two games. Although separated by only a few years, they were light years apart and I wanted to put on Little Mac's gloves , which allowed me to choose which fist, left or right, I punched with. Even apart from the brainwashing effect of marketing, it was very natural and easy for gamers to associate newer with better and older with lamer.


Anyone who was seriously interested in gaming wanted the newest stuff?

Explain then why things like Ms. Pac-Man cabinets, Galaga cabinets, and numerous other classics were popular enough where they were still common on location into the 1990's. Explain why the GCC arcade ports on the Atari 7800 sold so much better than all the attempts that were made to create NES style games like Scrapyard Dog. Or why many arcade classics did make their way home to the NES.

Where are these classic arcade games now or even arcade themselves for that matter? Gamers, by and large, move on. If this wasn't true newer systems would fail to sell and arcades would still be king. The medium is technological in nature and technology advances in every area of modern life constantly forcing us to move on with the newer even if we did prefer the old. I write this as a retro gamer, but the principle still holds true regardless.

One screen arcade classics like Ms. Pac-Man, Frogger, and Galaga fill a different niche than later more in-depth console games. When you're waiting for a pizza at a local pizzeria, you don't want to hunker down with a game of Metroid. A game of iconic Ms. Pac-Man is what you want and what barely video game literate pizzeria owners are aware of.

I don't write this to denigrate the classics 'cause I love 'em as I imagine that most gamers did who bought the 7800 based on the Atari brand. Of course a gamer who stuck with the Atari horse is more likely to turn their nose up at Scrapyard Dog and other similar games. If they wanted newfangled games that went past one screen they would've bought a newfangled video game system that delivered that experience.


Nothing could match the 7800 in hardware power, not even the Famicom.


Well, yes the SMS was the best 8-bit console based on hardware, it's Z80 no question, SMS rocks (had the best software too), but 7800 was second NES third, imho.

Tom, dude, I'm just not seeing it. What games showcased what the 7800 could really do? Some of them look close to comparable to some NES games, but most of them look way more primitive than your third horse in the 3rd generation systems. I actually picked up a 7800 ages ago from a craigslist deal, but it unfortunately had no adapter. If there were some worthwhile games for it, I'd consider plunking down some cash to get some power to the old boy- that and if you could tell me that I have a one of a kind magical 7800 that can produce better audio than a slightly more ambitious Atari 2600 sound chip.


I'm in the demographic of gamers who prefer the arcade style of gameplay - games where you simply play for a high score. Even now that I do have an NES, my library consists almost exclusively of arcade ports (and pinball games) - there is no Super Mario Brothers, Metroid, Zelda, or any of "must have classics" of the NES in my collection. I have no interest in them at all.

I love high score based games and I go through phases were I play them exclusively, so I understand your sentiment entirely. It may not be the best of analogies, but I feel as if games like Donkey Kong and Pac-Man are in sort of the same vein as golf, where it is just you and your ever improving skills against the ball. They just never grow old and it is a source of satisfaction to see your game refined. When I played a two player game of Ms. Pac-Man with the priest of my Episcopalian church at the kid night at the skating rink, we both talked about how we love the game and have played it over the years. Trying to best his high score felt like not so much a battle with him as it was a display of my years of becoming the Ms. Pac-Man player that I am today. I know people get better and better at every type of game, but high score-centric games especially feel unique in this regard to me.

[Atarileaf]

This is a great thread. Love the opinions and discussions and great response treismac :)

[tom]

Yeah sorry, I'm from Europe and by the time the NES, SMS, and 7800 became popular, we were all gaming on Amiga and ST, playing excellent 16-bit (by 1987 I already had a popular 16 bit fanzine going in UK) games and everyone was like, 'who want's to play this old 8-bit crap anyway (and NES games were GBP 50, whereas Amiga games were GBP 29 at the most)'. So if you wanted to play the newest and best, NES wasn't it. Different demographics.

[Leo_A]

While I'm sure that you were not the lone gamer ignoring the Nintendo Entertainment System in the '80s and early '90s, my personal experience and raw data would suggest non-NES gamers during the halcyon days of the NES were a very small slice of the gaming market. During the 16-bit War I knew many kids who sided with either SNES or Genesis [rich friends had both and a Turbografx-16, but anyway...].

There's a ton of evidence that many gamer's during the height of the Golden Age of arcade gaming moved on to the computer scene during the latter half of the 1980's instead of sticking with consoles.

While I understand people's childhood memories and don't call them into question, I really don't think the the NES was nearly as omnipresent for the older gamer's that had filled arcade's during the 1970's and early 1980's during the height of the arcade craze, those that were playing dedicated Pong consoles and such during the 70's, and those that were console gamer's during the first two generations of reprogrammable console gaming before the 3rd generation arrived on the scene with the NES, SMS, and Atari 7800.

I'd say that for those gamer's that were already young adult's by the height of the NES during 1987 or so, there's a very significant percentage that didn't pay it much heed and instead moved into the PC world.


I truly doubt that the NES didn't dominate most neighborhoods in the late '80s.

As do I, but I wasn't talking about children. Myself and others are advocating that it would've been wise to abandon going after that segment exactly for the reasons you're recalling about Nintendo's dominance in that area.


Where are these classic arcade games now or even arcade themselves for that matter?

There's a thriving scene that always seems to be growing of owner's that collect the actual machines, homebrew emulation seems more popular than ever, and official rereleases have been common for the gems of the Golden Age for many years. An entire genre of videogaming, the classic gaming compilation, exist because of the timeless qualities of classics like Defender. Even Xbox Live Arcade basically started out as a way to rerelease these classics and was dominated during the first year or so of the service by classics from Namco, Atari, and Konami. Beyond Geometry Wars and a handful of popular PC ports of casual puzzle games. It wasn't until a significant amount of time later when the service started to be dominated by original efforts.

Most of these classics never really left even as the cabinets themselves and the arcades they resided in started to disappear. Think of how many platforms out there never saw a version of Ms. Pac-Man for evidence of the lasting power I was talking about.


Tom, dude, I'm just not seeing it. What games showcased what the 7800 could really do?

He's talking hardware specifications where the 7800 compares very well, if not ahead of the competition, not the reality of what was actually accomplished software wise. With similar effort and budgets, I'm sure the 7800 would've amazed gamer's. Instead it was never allowed to even reach its full potential for 1984 (No High Score Cartridge, the lack of Pokey's in most releases, the lack of the promised expansion module, etc.) let alone be allowed to grow like the NES was.

Things like Super Mario Brothers 3 would've been equally impossible on the NES as it stood in 1985 or the Famicom in 1983. If the Atari 7800 had been able to escape 1984, I'm sure it would've been filled with classics that pushed the system far past what the designer's envisioned in 1984 and what was actually accomplished. .


If there were some worthwhile games for it, I'd consider plunking down some cash to get some power to the old boy- that and if you could tell me that I have a one of a kind magical 7800 that can produce better audio than a slightly more ambitious Atari 2600 sound chip.

You really should try the system. Clearly you don't know much about it since it has an excellent library of highly regarded arcade ports. Only a handful of the 7800's arcade ports aren't very highly regarded these days by the average Atari 7800 owner (Such as Pole Position II... even though it has its fans including myself). It also has several decent to very nice contemporary console style experiences, some unique quirky things like Ninja Golf which seems to have its fans, several nice unreleased prototypes that have surfaced since the 7800 died, and a thriving and quickly growing collection of excellent homebrew releases that often put to shame what was accomplished by professionals back in the day and which often utilize the Pokey add-on chip for excellent audio quality.

Not to mention Atari 2600 compatibility. Even if someone isn't a huge 2600 fan and finds most of the library to be dull, it's a great feature to enjoy those timeless classics that are still widely liked to this day like River Raid. There are easily 20 releases that I think even the 2600 adverse gamer would find entertaining. And the glory part of that is most of those are some of the most common and cheap games on the platform.

The homebrew scene alone makes it very much worthwhile. Toss in 2600 compatibility and those 15-20 7800 games or so that are still very much worth playing today and you have a pretty nice console for any collection.

[Atarileaf]

There's a ton of evidence that many gamer's during the height of the Golden Age of arcade gaming moved on to the computer scene during the latter half of the 1980's instead of sticking with consoles.



That's exactly what happened with me and many of my friends and school mates. After the 2600 I moved onto the Tandy Color Computer until I finally broke down and got an NES in 88'
Many kids in school similarily were playing on C64's, Amigas or Apple II's. Not too many had the NES that I recall, nor was it really discussed by kids in my age group. The problem in part was that the NES was marketed as a toy in the early days so older teenagers like myself wanted no part of it.

[Greg2600]

Tom, the 7800 is well behind the NES. I've yet to find a gaming example to rank it ahead. Take the sound, graphics, and all around fun of playing Zelda and compare that to anything released on the 7800. I rest my case.

Leo, I'm not a fanboy just because I grew up on the NES. That said, I was swift to stuff it in the drawer when I got a Genesis, same as I stuffed the 2600. As for arcades, the generation that followed the Billy Mitchell one put arcades out of business because they stayed home and played the games there.

SMS was unpolished, a project that needed to be refined. Which SEGA did with the Genesis. The 7800 was hopeless, it had no shot of stopping Nintendo or SEGA for that matter. It was not much of a step up from the 26/5200. Don't get me wrong, I love playing it's arcade ports. I too wish they had made more of them. I love every time PacManPlus comes out with a new old one. I just don't think it would have increased sales. They already had most of the big games ported on it. The newer Japanese arcade games would have run/looked laughable on the 7800. Contra on the 7800? Ha!

[Leo_A]

Tom, the 7800 is well behind the NES. I've yet to find a gaming example to rank it ahead. Take the sound, graphics, and all around fun of playing Zelda and compare that to anything released on the 7800. I rest my case.!

Show me an Atari 7800 game with a similar amount of effort put into it. Just because there wasn't one doesn't mean that the system wasn't capable of such feats.


Leo, I'm not a fanboy just because I grew up on the NES. That said, I was swift to stuff it in the drawer when I got a Genesis, same as I stuffed the 2600.

And plenty of people don't move on immediately to the next big thing. Witness things like the Atari 2600 adapter for the Colecovision, backwards compatible consoles starting with the Atari 7800 until today, handhelds that often can play the previous generation's titles, etc.

I doubt I'm far from alone as a child back then in hanging on to earlier consoles and still playing them. That said, I don't see what it has to do with the conversation at hand. Far more accurate conversions of arcade hits from recent memory compared to the often pitiful attempts that home console owners were recieving is a far cry from buying a new console to just play the same games all over again. Home ports of arcade hits even if they're several years old still seemed fresh and new when they almost seemed like they were arcade perfect compared to what console owners had become used to on things like the VCS.

If nothing else, look at all the projects of the type that the NES/Famicom recieved. People were very much still interested in such projects even if the young kids that started out on the NES were all about Super Mario Brothers, the latest Japanese coinops, Mega Man, Zelda, and Castlevania.


As for arcades, the generation that followed the Billy Mitchell one put arcades out of business because they stayed home and played the games there.

Arcades seemed to be doing pretty well to me, albeit in a reduced state compared to the late 70's and early 80's, all the way into the mid 1990's when consoles finally started to really catch up in technical capabilities, the fighting game craze subsided, and arcades started to disappear.


SMS was unpolished, a project that needed to be refined. Which SEGA did with the Genesis. The 7800 was hopeless, it had no shot of stopping Nintendo or SEGA for that matter. It was not much of a step up from the 26/5200.

You need to look at technical specifications like he's doing. He wasn't debating what actually happened, just what the system's technical capabilities were. The Atari 7800 was a very capable machine that never had that potential unlocked. Budgets were pitiful, few developers ever worked on it, and fewer still ever became skilled in it through the course of multiple projects. The 7800 was perpetually stuck in 1984 and most everything that came afterwards had shoestring budgets, short timelines, and few programming resources dedicated to it. It's no coincidence that the best liked games on the platform were largely those early releases programmed by GCC as the system was developed. The system never enjoyed such skilled programmers and resources again afterwards.

A better comparison would be with the earliest Famicom projects and even most of the titles that launched on the NES. Outside of Super Mario Brothers, I'd say the gems of the 7800 library compare well with the early home console efforts from Nintendo and 3rd parties from the same period of time. That the 7800 never significantly progressed past that state didn't mean that the hardware wasn't capable of doing so, it's a reflection of the lack of support it ended up recieving from Atari itself and 3rd parties.

Had Atari not gone belly up and the 7800 had seen a full launch in 1984 and proper resources were dedicated to it, things would've been significantly different. The 7800 was did in through things like mismanagement at Atari, an industry wide crash, and other factors like Nintendo getting a foothold in the market while Atari was all but inactive in the console marketplace. It wasn't because the 7800 was an underpowered weakling that was all tapped out doing home ports of hit arcade games from 1982-1984.

[treismac]

It is a shame that the 7800's potential was never realized. Though looking at its tech specs would be lost on me, I know how much a good developer with experience with a system under its belt can improve upon the games they make for the system over its lifespan. Comparing the early Famicom games to the late era Nintendo games it boggles the mind when you note the marked evolution, so I can imagine in the right hands the 7800's game library could have overtime given us some worthy gems.

I have a great deal of fondness for Atari, and I wish that they were still in the console business apart from the Flashback systems. It always seemed "off" to me that Sony and Microsoft got into the video game business. Yeah, their business involved technology that were in the same ballpark as video games, but they didn't make video games so they always felt like impostors. At least NEC partnered with Hudson Soft to make the Turbografx-16. Rather than being fueled by a love of gaming or years of experience at the craft, near limitless money forced the Xbox and Playstation into the gaming world. Atari was legit. They belonged. They made video games happen.

Unfortunately, the different bands of marauding suits who ran the company post Nolan Bushnell never seemed to "get" that video games were a creative work rather than just a mass produced commodity. Take the company's use of the programmer Howard Scott Warshaw as an illustration of this principle. The man gave us the amazing Yars' Revenge from the richness of his imagination and programming skills, but when it was time to "make money" with the E.T. license, Atari just wanted him to cobble something together in five weeks. With no respect for games, gamers, or programmers, how could the corporate powers of the business end of Atari not have failed time and time again to keep their systems and brand alive and healthy, nevermind returning Atari back to their golden era?

Perhaps it was a historical inevitability, anyway. The source of console video games had shifted to the Land of the Sun after the crash, and a name lifted from the Japanese board game Go was not enough to attract would be Japanese developers.

[Greg2600]

Leo, I have looked at the specs, and without question the 7800 is a superior system for the kinds of games that were common in 1984's arcades. Games like Pac-Man, Robotron, Xevious, Donkey Kong, or Galaga all play fabulously on the 7800, video wise. The audio is of course putrid. No flicker like the NES. However, the 7800 is inferior for the games that became prevalent after that. Especially side scrollers. Is it possible to do one? Yes, Scrapyard Dog was done. However, because it was not tile based, programming such a game was far more difficult. So again it goes to my point, the 7800 would have done a little better with more classic ports, but that's it. Sure the hardware could have been tweaked with aid of cart-based special chips I guess, like the NES was later on. All sorts of things were possible, but they didn't and weren't going to happen.

Again, the OP said Atari should have focused on these classic ports in the late 1980's, meaning after the 1986 release. At which point they were already dead in the water. True it would have meant some more money in Atari's pockets, but not much. I mean, why were people still buying new Atari 2600 Jr.'s while the 7800 was out? One reason was they didn't care that much about graphics on those classic ports. Frankly Atari should have just produced a home console based on the Lynx, which was a better system than the 7800 was.

[tom]

See that's what I mean, most NES fanboys don't realise that the NES was in production for 3 years before getting to the USA. It was a well established system, programming companies knew the hardware since 3 years going and they knew how to tweak the hardware/carts and wotnot.
It (Famicom/NES) started out with simple arcade conversions like DK, Popeye, but most USAers think, 'wow look the NES a new system, with SMB, cool they can do scrolling-thingy'

Side-scrolling on 7800: Choplifter, Desert Falcon, Sirius...scrolling is no trouble for the 7800, why should it be difficult? No Atari system has any problems doing vertical or horizontal scrolling whatsoever.

[Rickstilwell1]

The other funny thing is that in terms of games that were groundbreaking the NES only really had Super Mario Bros. unique to it until a bit into 1987 when games like Zelda, Metroid, Castlevania, Kid Icarus, Mega Man and Rad Racer finally came out in the USA.

During that first year from mid 1986 to mid 1987 I believe Sega and Atari had a chance to prove something. Atari just didn't have new styles of games already devloped even though it had some great games not available on NES or SMS. Sega had a lot of exclusive arcade games on their system that would never be available on the competition, but Alex Kidd seemed like a Mario copycat in some ways.

I found the 1986 NES USA release list to be a bit boring. Arcade port after arcade port that year. Many of the games coming from Japan's 1983-1984 catalog. If I was a kid yet I probably would have already played all those games in arcades and not have been able to establish which home port was better than which. I really could have used SMB2j because there weren't any other NES platformers other than SMB yet. I would have wanted to try out Alex Kidd because of it.

That one game Super Mario Bros. was amazingly fun though. I'm not surprised it was able to sustain the NES for 2 years while some other fun but familiar styles kept people busy. Out of the 1987 releases I found Zelda to be the most enjoyable. It probably marked the transition from caring more about originality instead of judging systems solely on their arcade ports. The other ones I mentioned were really great but Zelda is where I think Nintendo's foothold really began. The only thing Sega seemed to really beat Nintendo to was the localization of turn based RPGs. But Nintendo still cut it close releasing Zelda II in the end of 1988 for an action game which seemed to take Castlevania and add RPG elements to it.

[Leo_A]

The Atari 7800's standard hardware could still put out some decent music and sound effects even if it's severely underpowered in the audio department beyond those releases with onboard POKEY chips. It does admirable jobs in games like Mario Brothers and I think it typically wouldn't lead you to believe that it's essentially utilizing the same hardware to accomplish audio as was done on the Atari 2600.

Look at the Game Boy Advance for another example. It's crippled from an audio standpoint apparently and isn't much different from what the original Game Boy had to utilize in the sound department (and far inferior compared to the sound chip on a Super Nintendo). Yet developers were still able to push it far enough to do surprisingly things and often it compares very well to the Super Nintendo (Particularly when not playing on a television set via the GBP or using headphones).

And even the Atari 2600 could do scrolling just fine. Just because the Atari 7800 didn't have Super Mario Brothers and the Legend of Zelda doesn't necessarily mean it couldn't of been able to do nice jobs at such games. What scrolling there is on the platform in games like Xevious seems every bit as smooth as in their NES counterparts. And in that same vein, while I know the NES was tile based and I'm unsure how inferior or comparable the Atari 7800 may of been with scrolling titles due to the different nature of the hardware, I suppose it might've been at a disadvantage there.

I'm no tech expert and sadly without serious attempts at late 80's style console gaming available to check out on the platform, I'm in no real position to judge how adept or weak it may of been in the area. But my suspicions are that it would've been able to hold its own in many ways. I see no obvious weak areas in the scrolling department on any Atari platform including this one (Unlike a Colecovision) and I don't see why not being tile based necessarily means it was crippled in this department. Someone like PacManPlus would be a better authority to discuss such a thing though.



Again, the OP said Atari should have focused on these classic ports in the late 1980's, meaning after the 1986 release. At which point they were already dead in the water. True it would have meant some more money in Atari's pockets, but not much. I mean, why were people still buying new Atari 2600 Jr.'s while the 7800 was out? One reason was they didn't care that much about graphics on those classic ports. Frankly Atari should have just produced a home console based on the Lynx, which was a better system than the 7800 was.

Fifty bucks...

That's why the Atari 2600 Junior pushed out so many consoles. It was the mainstream budget platform of the day. And between those new 2600 owners, backwards compatibility on the 7800, and their legacy customers, software sales were strong throughout the late 80's for the 2600 and even spurred some new development outside of Atari on the platform (Including a return of Activision). So I wouldn't say that Atari was dead in the water in 1986 fighting a futile battle with their 7800. It was a brand new platform and I don't think it was obvious to gamer's, publisher's, or to the media that Atari was facing an impossible battle with Nintendo's short head start at that point. The dominance the NES was going to hold on this re-emerging market I don't think became obvious until 1987/1988. And at that point with the cheapstake family in control of Atari, the war was lost then.

But Atari itself was in financially sound health at that point, had millions in the bank, and the 2600 was still a cash cow for them and the 7800 program was in the black. So I don't think it was dead on arrival or was a given that it was going to be a failure. Atari simply did a lousy job with it and got out of it what they put into it and squandered the opportunity.

You have to spend money to make money and Atari was investing precious little of it into the 7800. That's one reason I think it would've done better focusing on the coinop ports. Most 7800's were sold to gamer's that wanted high quality ports of early 80's arcade games (as I think the common 7800 games out there today attest to what people were actually buying), development cost on such projects were reasonable compared to the top of the line 80's console release like a Mega Man, and licenses surely economical to acquire for older arcade releases.

Instead they spent what little resources they had on a half hearted attempt to go head to head against the NES and most such releases failed miserably. I think it's not even debatable that positioning the Atari 7800 as a home arcade platform for all those arcade hits everyone had been enjoying in recent years that were still dominating many a arcade would've been wiser than wasting effort on developing and releasing projects to go after the NES crowd. I think it would've sold more consoles and games, it was material that was more of an interest for the 7800's small install base, and I think the 7800 would be better viewed today as a niche platform that did an excellent job at bringing early 80's arcade gaming home rather than the failed attempt by Atari to go up against the NES like it's viewed as.

[Rob2600]

Side-scrolling on 7800: Choplifter, Desert Falcon, Sirius...scrolling is no trouble for the 7800, why should it be difficult? No Atari system has any problems doing vertical or horizontal scrolling whatsoever.


Just because the Atari 7800 didn't have Super Mario Brothers and the Legend of Zelda doesn't necessarily mean it couldn't of been able to do nice jobs at such games. What scrolling there is on the platform in games like Xevious seems every bit as smooth as in their NES counterparts.

Even if the 7800 could handle scrolling perfectly fine, its biggest problem was its low resolution. The 7800's wide, chunky pixels looked very dated next to even the earliest NES and SMS games.

7800 Rampage:
http://www.mobygames.com/images/shots/l/57075-rampage-atari-7800-screenshot-gameplay-with-georges.gif

NES Rampage:
http://www.consoleclassix.com/info_img/Rampage_NES_ScreenShot4.jpg


7800 Double Dragon:
http://www.mobygames.com/images/shots/l/55264-double-dragon-atari-7800-screenshot-watch-out-for-that-whip.gif

NES Double Dragon:
http://www.mobygames.com/images/shots/l/76505-double-dragon-nes-screenshot-a-roper-throws-the-oil-drum-s.png


7800 Kung Fu Master:
http://www.mobygames.com/images/shots/l/194380-kung-fu-master-atari-7800-screenshot-dagger-thrower-on-first.png

NES Kung Fu:
http://www.consoleclassix.com/info_img/Kung_Fu_NES_ScreenShot3.jpg


7800 Ikari Warriors:
http://www.mobygames.com/images/shots/l/56345-ikari-warriors-atari-7800-screenshot-the-beginning-locations.gif

NES Ikari Warriors:
http://www.consoleclassix.com/info_img/Ikari_Warriors_NES_ScreenShot2.jpg


7800 Mario Bros.:
http://www.mobygames.com/images/shots/l/55267-mario-bros-atari-7800-screenshot-beginning-the-games.gif

NES Mario Bros.:
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-RjzkjzeWn8k/TeJ4M18402I/AAAAAAAAAFs/lcgmHJtVq2s/s1600/Mario_Bros-1%2Boriginal.gif


7800 Donkey Kong:
http://www.atariage.com/7800/screenshots/s_DonkeyKong_2.png

NES Donkey Kong:
http://www.nesforever.com/games/images/Donkey_Kong_Game.jpg



As you can see, the 7800 versions look more chunky, stretched-out, and low-res which made the 7800 look more outdated.

[treismac]

When you place the graphics of most of the games on both of the systems head to head it is rather hard to imagine a kid back in the day opting for the 7800 over the NES. That and, not to beat, kill, resurrect, beat, kill, resurrect, and beat a dead horse over and over again and again, but on so many games the music is painful to the point of making the games unbearable. The gap between the graphics of the two systems is nothing compared to the vast audio chasm that separates them. There is a reason orchestras have never played any 7800 themes the way they have NES ones.

Note: I still dig the chunky graphics of some of the 7800 games very much. Ms. Pac-Man and the Nintendo arcade game ports look awesome.

[tom]

so, first it's the 7800 scrolling, than he disses the SMS (most excellent European gaming library btw), now the 7800 resolution is not to his liking.
I bet he's a Nintendo Age forum fanboy.

[Atarileaf]

Gameplay wise, I'd take 7800 Rampage over the NES (SMS is the best though IMO)

[Greg2600]

Leo, the Gameboy Advance, seriously? GBA plays wave files! Once you get to a certain level, game audio via wave files. It's 8-bit sound, but the CPU of that system can do far more work to do extra tricks than the 7800 could. 7800 sound is a failure.

Tom, jest all you want, but the reason Curt Vendel and friends are producing the XM expansion to the 7800 is so that games could be made to use the high resolution mode, with full color and no slow down. This was not possible in 1988, the hardware simply isn't capable. And it's disabilities on high res. are very evident. People always dream about SMB on the 7800. Why? It would look terrible in low res compared to the original NES version.

No, the system that needed more 3rd party software was the Master System. It could have handled them. Not to mention, once again, that Atari's hardware was far too cumbersome to program for. Nintendo and SEGA used tile-based gpu's, which were the next big thing. And where was Atari's 1st party games? Virtually nothing.

Go ask SEGA why the Saturn failed, a big reason was that developing was a joke. They designed a slightly better hardware console than the Playstation, but didn't conceive that programmers would HATE developing for it. Same as the 7800. There are plenty of reasons the system was ignored, and it wasn't just Nintendo's exclusivity. So I am back to the same point. Additional arcade ports (up to a certain point in time) would have helped some, but it was not going to save the system. I simply do not believe it was feasible to program the type of games we saw on the NES or SMS or arcades in the late 80's on this system. The XM will test that theory, but again, that is an add-on.

[Leo_A]

Rob2600, you do realize that almost none of those screenshots are at their proper 4:3 aspect ratios, right? If you're going to complain about proportions and provide examples to illustrate such issues, they sort of have to be at correct proportions themselves...


Leo, the Gameboy Advance, seriously? GBA plays wave files! Once you get to a certain level, game audio via wave files. It's 8-bit sound, but the CPU of that system can do far more work to do extra tricks than the 7800 could. 7800 sound is a failure.

Seriously what?

I wasn't saying that the audio capabilities of the Game Boy Advance were comparable to the Atari 7800. I'm saying that just like the Game Boy Advance which shared similarly outdated audio hardware, the 7800 could push out audio that sounds significantly more advanced than the 2600 whose TIA chip is what handles most of the audio on the console.

There isn't much where audio is concerned on the 7800 that sounds bad to me in the games actually worth playing. Most of what's there that doesn't sound nice was in the shovelware department that people wouldn't be playing anyways. Most of it sounds quite good and more than adequate. Probably the biggest exception of a decent game being saddled with poor audio on the platform was Donkey Kong. And even that is far from terrible sounding.

It's weak in the audio department and Atari made a mistake there, but it's also not crippled in that area.


Tom, jest all you want, but the reason Curt Vendel and friends are producing the XM expansion to the 7800 is so that games could be made to use the high resolution mode, with full color and no slow down. This was not possible in 1988, the hardware simply isn't capable. And it's disabilities on high res. are very evident. People always dream about SMB on the 7800. Why? It would look terrible in low res compared to the original NES version.

He's producing a module that was designed as a computer expansion over 25 years ago for the platform. It's filling an unfulfilled dream for 7800 owners and it will also expand the capabilities of the console for homebrew gaming.

I've never seen it be stated that it's being done to get underpowered hardware into NES territory although I'm sure it will go a long ways towards addressing any weak areas that might exist on the console.


No, the system that needed more 3rd party software was the Master System. It could have handled them. Not to mention, once again, that Atari's hardware was far too cumbersome to program for. Nintendo and SEGA used tile-based gpu's, which were the next big thing. And where was Atari's 1st party games? Virtually nothing.

When I've heard people that have actually programmed for this console discuss it, it's not nearly as underpowered as you want to portray it as. And this deal about the 7800 being difficult to program for is a completely new one on me and I'd love to see some evidence to support that claim. Perhaps it was difficult to maximize the hardware for the new style of gaming that was beginning to dominate, but in general, I've seen zero evidence that it was a difficult console to program for.

And I'm confused why you keep bringing up tile based graphics and why the 7800 was weak in the area of late 80's console and arcade gaming but proceed to claim that Atari wouldn't of been wise to cater to the strengths of their console. It's my understanding that at the very least there's some truth in your claims that the 7800 wasn't as suited to the new generation of gaming that was becoming popular, but I haven't seen you state how you'd of improved the fortunes of the 7800. Or are you suggesting that Atari actually did everything they could've done to maximize its potential?

And realize that I think everyone recognizes that the 7800 as launched in 1986 wasn't going to ever approach the popularity of the NES and that we're talking about how Atari could've done better as a minority player in the market. So when someone like me advocates that early 80's arcade ports would've helped, we're talking about catering to the strengths of the hardware and to the small market they had a chance to go after. We"re not discussing how Atari could've overtaken the marketplace...

And as to where are Atari's 1st party games? Go look at the software releases for the platform. Greater than 90% of it was from Atari themselves. If you're talking Atari Games arcade ports, that was a different Atari at that point and wasn't related.


Go ask SEGA why the Saturn failed, a big reason was that developing was a joke. They designed a slightly better hardware console than the Playstation, but didn't conceive that programmers would HATE developing for it. Same as the 7800. There are plenty of reasons the system was ignored, and it wasn't just Nintendo's exclusivity. So I am back to the same point. Additional arcade ports (up to a certain point in time) would have helped some, but it was not going to save the system.

Again, I've seen plenty of complaining that consoles like the Sega Saturn, Atari Jaguar, and even the Playstation 3 could be difficult to program for (Particularly outside of their strengths). But I've never seen the Atari 7800 categorized as such and from my limited knowledge of programming, it was a simple platform that shared many programming similarities with computers and consoles like the Atari 2600 and Colecovision. Things that any programmer in the world were already experienced in and had a grasp on.

And you do realize the platform was profitible? Atari didn't start bleeding money until the early 1990's. Atari's computer and console business was profitable during the late 80's and the 2600 and 7800 programs were a success from the viewpoint of returning Atari's investment and then some.

The 7800 didn't need saving. It was doing well in its small niche and I think it makes sense that it would've did better if it had accepted that niche and tried to cater to it instead of wasting post launch efforts into trying to expand the market into NES territory.


I simply do not believe it was feasible to program the type of games we saw on the NES or SMS or arcades in the late 80's on this system. The XM will test that theory, but again, that is an add-on. .

You do realize that this thread is about how we think Atari could've done better with the platform and that this XM add-on was designed back in the day and meant for release. So when we're talking about may of been, the XM was one of those things.

So if someone wanted to argue that the 7800 should've gone after the NES crowd, there was real hardware back then that could've helped it reach that goal. So even if you think the 7800 needs this attachment to have a prayer of handling such experiences, it certainly wasn't unfeasible.

Curt Vendel is finishing and bringing to market what Atari created over a quarter of a century ago.


When you place the graphics of most of the games on both of the systems head to head it is rather hard to imagine a kid back in the day opting for the 7800 over the NES.

When you compare games that were on both platforms (Of which there are about half a dozen where direct comparisons make sense and maybe a couple of others where a comparison makes a bit of sense like 7800 Centipede with NES Millipede), the 7800 doesn't fare badly. 7800 Galaga looks nice just as NES Galaga does for example.


That and, not to beat, kill, resurrect, beat, kill, resurrect, and beat a dead horse over and over again and again, but on so many games the music is painful to the point of making the games unbearable

What games have such horrible audio that they make the games unbearable? I own most all of what's considered worthwhile on the console and thanks to my Cuttle Cart II, I've played all of the rest at one time or another on the console. And there isn't a single decent game on the platform that suffers from this audio ailment you're claiming. Most don't even have in-game music to begin with.

I really doubt at this point that you've ever even played the console. Even good 2600 games aren't this vast wasteland of eardrum destroying audio. Most good 2600 games had nice, albeit simple, audio to back it up. So even if the 7800 couldn't of done better, it's still not guilty of your claims. Most any entertaining 2600 game had pleasant sound.


The gap between the graphics of the two systems is nothing compared to the vast audio chasm that separates them. There is a reason orchestras have never played any 7800 themes the way they have NES ones.

We're sure reaching for reasons why the system sucks, aren't we? No orchestras ever performed any 7800 tunes? The audio just had to suck then.

And here I was thinking that a game had to sell millions of copies, have gone through a lengthy series ot sequels to develop a huge fanbase, and be renowned for its audio to have any chance of being performed by an orchestra eventually.

By your logic, only about half a dozen series have had audio that aren't insulting to human auditory systems. I guess I learn something new every day.

[Rob2600]

Those are the correct aspect ratios. Look up 7800 gameplay videos on YouTube.

[Leo_A]

No, they're not.

Every last Atari 7800 and Nintendo Entertainment System game will have an aspect ratio of 4:3 (1.33).

Yet most of these shots are obviously not anywhere close to that. The shot of Mario Brothers for the Atari 7800 is 1.59 for an example when you do the math. That's significantly closer to a 16:9 widescreen aspect ratio (1.77) than it is to a 4:3 aspect ratio (1.33) like it's supposed to be.

Mario Brothers for the Atari 7800 doesn't have an 8:5 aspect ratio. It's 4:3 and that screenshot isn't anywhere close to 4:3. Almost none of these screenshots appear to be 4:3 like they should be (NES Donkey Kong for example looks like a perfect square instead of being 4:3 which means it should be wider than it is tall).

[Rob2600]

The 7800 uses wider pixels (and a lower resolution) than the NES.

[Leo_A]

It still doesn't change the fact that the games were designed for and intended to be played full screen on a 4:3 television. So they need to be portrayed as 4:3 in screenshots. Things like a screenshot of 7800 Mario Brothers in the same aspect ratio as a 16:10 widescreen computer monitor isn't anywhere even close.

Many of these screenshots are significantly away from being 4:3 and don't accurately portray the proportions of these games. Using Donkey Kong for an example here, the NES screenshot is significantly taller than it would be when played on a 4:3 television since it's a perfect 1:1 square instead of the 4:3 proportions it should be taking. And the Atari 7800 screenshot is 13:9 so it's slightly wider than it would be in reality (It should be 4:3/12:9; so since it's 13:9 here, it's 25% of the way to being in 16:9 widescreen proportions).

So they're pretty much useless illustrations for talking about proportions in games available on both platforms.

[Rob2600]

Please post correct screen shots of a few 7800 games vs correct shots of the same NES games. I'm curious to see the real difference.

And my main point was that like the C64, the 7800 ran at a lower resolution than the NES which made those games look inferior and more outdated to the average gamer in the late 80s.

[Leo_A]

I'm not setup to do that myself with real hardware. And I imagine if I went the emulation route, I'd be encountering some of the same issues you referenced about pixel sizes if they're outputting at 1:1 that led to several of these being off when they were originally taken. And it looks like you went to the first two sites I'd of thought of for locating screenshots other's have taken. AtariAge's database for 7800 shots and Mobygames for NES screenshots.

That said, I don't even particularly take disagreement with the gist of what you're going after. But it was worthwhile just the same to point out that those illustrations aren't accurate representations of what someone would be seeing in reality and that several of them aren't even anywhere close.

And even if I was out to argue, I don't think screenshots do games justice very often. Centipede on the 7800 looks dull and plain in screenshots for instance when I was looking at AtariAge's database earlier. But on real hardware hooked up to a SD CRT, it looks very nice in motion and plays even better. NES Millipede also doesn't come off so well in screenshots with the big border and some of the color choices. But it shines when you're actually playing it and is one of my favorite Golden Era ports to the NES hardware.

[treismac]

Why am I having to defend my comments about the Atari 7800 having poor audio? Apart from an appeal to the subjective nature of the value of music/sound, the case for the 7800's audio inferiority amongst its peers in this department are self-evident. If I had more time on my hands and the inclination, I'd subject a bunch of plants to loops of 7800, SMS, and NES game music and record the results...



And there isn't a single decent game on the platform that suffers from this audio ailment you're claiming.


And what games have such horrible audio that they make the games unbearable?

Donkey Kong is the most tragic offender perhaps most of all because the game otherwise plays and looks great. The simple act of walking with Jumpman/Mario grates the ear drums. For heaven's sake, the 2600 had a MUCH better walking sound effect in its version. The 7800's was a major downgrade. The opening theme of Donkey Kong for the 7800 vs. the NES alone justifies my otherwise [slightly] hyperbolic audio chasm comment. The 7800's version sounds just plain bad with that atonal beep that sounds like a squawking duck robot which was also used to ruin the 7800's Mario Bros. theme. To the singing robot duck's credit, he was better incorporated into Donkey Kong Jr.'s opening theme.

With all of this said, let me give credit where credit is due. The Double Dragon opening theme made good use of the 7800's musical capability. For the sake of successfully extending the audio olive branch I won't mention the music of the first stage of the game compared to either the Sega Master System or the NES versions of the game.



We're sure reaching for reasons why the system sucks, aren't we?

Where have I said the 7800 sucks? Let me clear this misunderstanding up, Leo A. Regardless of it being unable to compete with its contemporaries on many different levels, I don't think it "sucks." Here are two quotes from me from this thread that prove this point:


Note: I still dig the chunky graphics of some of the 7800 games very much. Ms. Pac-Man and the Nintendo arcade game ports look awesome.


It is a shame that the 7800's potential was never realized... Comparing the early Famicom games to the late era Nintendo games it boggles the mind when you note the marked evolution, so I can imagine in the right hands the 7800's game library could have overtime given us some worthy gems.

Look, apart from my perhaps overly harsh audio comments, I am not here trying to trash the 7800. My posts are, for the most part, comparing the audio and graphic ability of the games, marketing, market share, and commercial viability of the 7800 to the NES. If for no other reason, I can't hate the 7800 because it gave us Ninja Golf.

I also lament the fall of Atari in this thread a few times. I think it is clear to anyone who reads my post in this thread that I am fond of Atari. Heck, I even have one of my 2600 joysticks on top of my computer desk next to an assortment of other items that make me smile.


No orchestras ever performed any 7800 tunes? The audio just had to suck then... By your logic, only about half a dozen series have had audio that aren't insulting to human auditory systems. I guess I learn something new every day.

This just illustrates that the NES' library of games produced memorable songs people still remember fondly years later. The same could also be said of some Commodore 64 games that never launched successful franchises. I never came close to even insinuating something as ridiculous as video game music being "insulting to human auditory systems" unless an orchestra deigns to play it.

[Rob2600]

Just to clarify, the NES's pixels aren't totally square, but they're close- 1.25:1.

The 7800's pixels are rectangles- 2:1. They're 60% wider than the NES's pixels, therefore 7800 games look 60% more stretched out.

I'm not saying they look horrible, but they definitely don't look as crisp and detailed as NES games. For whatever reason, the 7800 hardware was crippled in terms of resolution, if nothing else.

[Leo_A]

Why am I having to defend my comments about the Atari 7800 having poor audio? Apart from an appeal to the subjective nature of the value of music/sound, the case for the 7800's audio inferiority amongst its peers in this department are self-evident.

I think I was the first one in this thread that mentioned that the console was inferior in the audio department. But just because it was underpowered in that area and Atari made a mistake in not including a cheap chip that could've rectified it all doesn't mean it was a wasteland of horrible sounds like you portrayed it as.

I think most of the worth playing software on the console sounds fine enough. Take Galaga for an example. Sounds significantly better than what one would've expected on the 2600, does justice to the arcade game, and it's not harsh on the ears. And it's all done with the 7800's TIA chip from the Atari 2600.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Kw1-OVYh8s

It's a far cry from being so painful that the game is unbearable to play. It's not as good as it can be, a case shared with most of the worthwhile games on the platform, but it's also far from horrible. That's all I was trying to get across and it's what I don't think you were being fair about in your assessment.

It's underpowered in the audio department, but it's also far from a disaster in that area. It's just not as good as it should've been.


Donkey Kong is the most tragic offender perhaps most of all because the game otherwise plays and looks great. The simple act of walking with Jumpman/Mario grates the ear drums.

Too many people have attacked it for its sound for me to ever defend it. But it doesn't sound nearly as horrible to me.


The opening theme of Donkey Kong for the 7800 vs. the NES alone justifies my otherwise [slightly] hyperbolic audio chasm comment. The 7800's version sounds just plain bad with that atonal beep that sounds like a squawking duck robot which was also used to ruin the 7800's Mario Bros. theme. To the singing robot duck's credit, he was better incorporated into Donkey Kong Jr.'s opening theme.

I've never noticed the singing duck.

I rather liked the opening theme for the Mario Brothers port. Donkey Kong Jr.'s audio sounds fine to me as well. It doesn't add to the experience I don't think and is a bit plain in its 7800 form, but it also didn't detract from it unlike the harsher sounding sound effects in the DK port. And with the rest of it being done so well, it's one of the gems of the library.


Where have I said the 7800 sucks? Let me clear this misunderstanding up, Leo A. Regardless of it being unable to compete with its contemporaries on many different levels, I don't think it "sucks."

I can always tell when someone's annoyed when they just copy/paste my name even when it's plainly obvious what my first name is. But thanks for clearing up your opinions for me, treismac. I guess I interpreted things slightly the wrong way. ;)

As for what I stated that I don't believe you appreciated, I thought I was pretty much just responding in kind by using exaggeration and a bit of sarcasm. I thought that was what you were doing when you called the audio produced by the 7800 as too painful to listen to and then proceeded to defend the statement by the lack of orchestras performing 7800 music and such.


If for no other reason, I can't hate the 7800 because it gave us Ninja Golf.

Do you really like Ninja Golf as a game? I've barely touched it in the past and only mentioned it earlier as a decent console style effort because of its small amount of fame. But I fired it up last night and I don't like it or see anything really redeeming about it.

I wonder how many that speak positively about it are doing so because of its strange and unique combination of genres or because it's legitimately a fun game? I got bored quick and there is a sound effect or two in there that is pretty terrible.


This just illustrates that the NES' library of games produced memorable songs people still remember fondly years later. The same could also be said of some Commodore 64 games that never launched successful franchises. I never came close to even insinuating something as ridiculous as video game music being "insulting to human auditory systems" unless an orchestra deigns to play it.

Extremely little from the NES has ever reached a symphony orchestra. And the few examples that did probably would've never made it had there not been a long string of popular sequels that reused memorable songs since then.

It just proves the popularity of the NES then and now, the amount of effort it recieved from developers, and its lasting impact; all factors I don't think any sane classic gamer would ever debate. I simply just don't see it as some sort of 'check mate' like you seem to think it is in relation to the 7800's audio capabilities (Which could be very good with a 25 cent Pokey chip onboard the cartridge...something two games recieved and a significant number of homebrews have supported).

[treismac]

... it all doesn't mean it was a wasteland of horrible sounds like you portrayed it as... It's underpowered in the audio department, but it's also far from a disaster in that area. It's just not as good as it should've been.

While I might argue that DK was somewhere in the neighborhood of a wasteland of sound, you are right about the 7800 not being a through and through sonic disaster if judged on its own merits.




I've never noticed the singing duck.


Close your eyes and listen. There is the more prevalent sweet and soft higher pitched series of notes and then there is the lower, harsh robot duck quacks. It's there.



I can always tell when someone's annoyed when they just copy/paste my name even when it's plainly obvious what my first name is. But thanks for clearing up your opinions for me, treismac. I guess I interpreted things slightly the wrong way. ;)

Generally speaking, I don't use someone's actual name unless I've corresponded with them through email or they make mention of it. Leo works for me, sir.


Do you really like Ninja Golf as a game? I've barely touched it in the past and only mentioned it earlier as a decent console style effort because of its small amount of fame. But I fired it up last night and I don't like it or see anything really redeeming about it.

I wonder how many that speak positively about it are doing so because of its strange and unique combination of genres or because it's legitimately a fun game? I got bored quick and there is a sound effect or two in there that is pretty terrible.

Ninja Golf the concept is awesome. Ninja Golf the game is a fairly nifty endeavor that could have benefited greatly from some more thought, polish, and either added quirkiness or/and absurdity. Would the game be worth playing if the quirky blend of unlike elements was removed? Doubt it, but so much of a game's appeal, I believe, comes from the "idea" (or theme) of the game. Many games are their theme and would fall apart if they were divorced from it. I think it is more than safe to say that if you extracted "ninja" from the game, we wouldn't be discussing it right now.

[tom]

SMS had excellent 3rd party support, the European library outshines the NES library by far. Also, better sound, better (sturdy) packing, better box art etc...

NES had a few good games, but not many, I bought my second NES in 95 (Actually, my first NES I bought in 90, but it was hardly payed to to the GBP 50.00 pricetag (Who was Nintendo kidding)), when it was dead in the water, I managed to buy 4 NES, 211 games, controllers, U-Force etc for GBP 100, a fleamarket bargain.
But earlier I was talking to a NES guy from USA, who stated that the NES was his favourite system, he played Mario games, Zelda, couple of shooters, Metroid, and he said his mom was always rented NES games from Blockbusters, they were tried out only to see they were rubbish, to be put back onto the kitchen table, to be returned the next day, and back we went playing SMB, Zelda, Metroid, and a few shooters.

As for 7800 music, TIA sounds are found everywhere in popular music, but it's not important if a piece of game music is played by some weird Japanese orchestra, and they go mental over it. WHY?????

[treismac]

But earlier I was talking to a NES guy from USA, who stated that the NES was his favourite system, he played Mario games, Zelda, couple of shooters, Metroid, and he said his mom was always rented NES games from Blockbusters, they were tried out only to see they were rubbish, to be put back onto the kitchen table, to be returned the next day, and back we went playing SMB, Zelda, Metroid, and a few shooters.

The popularity of the AVGN attests to the fact that many NES games were just wretched or damn near unplayable. If there was a NES owner who never regretted purchasing or renting a game, I never met them. As much as I love the system, it has many games that truly lead you to conclude that the Nintendo seal of approval stood for little more than a guarantee that Nintendo got their slice from the game. Now, there are plenty of good games for the NES apart from the iconic Nintendo ones, but they are buried among so many mediocre or really bad games, which made it hard to learn about them back in the day when Nintendo Power assured its readers every game was amazing.


NES had a few good games, but not many...

While I would never claim that the NES had a high ratio of good games to bad games, to say that the NES only had a "few good games, but not many" is just short of absurd. Between just the games made by Nintendo, Capcom, and Konami the NES had a respectable library of stellar games that spanned many different genres. The list becomes even stronger when you throw in the rest of the third party gems and the Famicom games that were excluded from release in North America.

[Rickstilwell1]

The popularity of the AVGN attests to the fact that many NES games were just wretched or damn near unplayable. If there was a NES owner who never regretted purchasing or renting a game, I never met them. As much as I love the system, it has many games that truly lead you to conclude that the Nintendo seal of approval stood for little more than a guarantee that Nintendo got their slice from the game. Now, there are plenty of good games for the NES apart from the iconic Nintendo ones, but they are buried among so many mediocre or really bad games, which made it hard to learn about them back in the day when Nintendo Power assured its readers every game was amazing.



While I would never claim that the NES had a high ratio of good games to bad games, to say that the NES only had a "few good games, but not many" is just short of absurd. Between just the games made by Nintendo, Capcom, and Konami the NES had a respectable library of stellar games that spanned many different genres. The list becomes even stronger when you throw in the rest of the third party gems and the Famicom games that were excluded from release in North America.

I actually never managed to get any of the bad, unplayable games until my $1 a piece "buy all you can find" spree in 2007. My grandma had a VERY good eye for quality even when she was picking up games from yard sales and didn't have store employees to tell her what they thought the best games were.

[treismac]

...the 7800's audio capabilities ... could be very good with a 25 cent Pokey chip onboard the cartridge...something two games received and a significant number of homebrews have supported.

I've now played the rom version of Pac-Man Collection for the 7800 and, yeah, it sounds great. What other games took advantage of this Pokey chip, Leo?

EDIT:

I just discovered Donkey Kong XM. Awesome. Why didn't you mention the homebrew upgrade when I was busting ol' DK's 7800 chops?

[Leo_A]

For released software, just Ballblazer and Commando.

If it's a homebrew or an enhancement of an existing game, most of them have Pokey sound and optional TIA sound when a Pokey isn't present. And the Pokey sound as you heard is excellent. :)

[7th lutz]

There is a homebrew 7800 that isn't quite finished yet that actually would give people a great indication what the 7800 can do. The game is called Bentley Bear: Crystal Quest. The game is a scrolling platform game that is similar to Wonderboy based on the background. While there is a youtube video of the game, it was done when the game was in an earlier stage of development. I rather not give a link that video as a result.

Here is a link to the thread about the game: http://www.atariage.com/forums/topic/199637-work-in-progress-bentley-bear-crystal-quest/

It seems like the game has changed hands. I am saying that because another 7800 programmer is developing sound for the game. The author of the game, PacManPlus is leaving the hobby and is matter of fact selling his 7800 collection on game Gavel under a different name as a seller. I don't know why he is leaving the hobby.

There is nothing to be worried about the game. The person doing the sound is the same person who improved the sound for Donkey Kong and is making the game closer to the arcade including adding the missing level in the 7800 version.

[buzz_n64]

There is a homebrew 7800 that isn't quite finished yet that actually would give people a great indication what the 7800 can do. The game is called Bentley Bear: Crystal Quest. The game is a scrolling platform game that is similar to Wonderboy based on the background. While there is a youtube video of the game, it was done when the game was in an earlier stage of development. I rather not give a link that video as a result.

Here is a link to the thread about the game: http://www.atariage.com/forums/topic/199637-work-in-progress-bentley-bear-crystal-quest/

It seems like the game has changed hands. I am saying that because another 7800 programmer is developing sound for the game. The author of the game, PacManPlus is leaving the hobby and is matter of fact selling his 7800 collection on game Gavel under a different name as a seller. I don't know why he is leaving the hobby.

There is nothing to be worried about the game. The person doing the sound is the same person who improved the sound for Donkey Kong and is making the game closer to the arcade including adding the missing level in the 7800 version.

Would love to see video of this game whenever it becomes closer to completion, but from screenshots it looks amazing for a 7800 game.

[Rob2600]

There is a homebrew 7800 that isn't quite finished yet that actually would give people a great indication what the 7800 can do. The game is called Bentley Bear: Crystal Quest. The game is a scrolling platform game that is similar to Wonderboy based on the background.


Would love to see video of this game whenever it becomes closer to completion, but from screenshots it looks amazing for a 7800 game.

Here's a YouTube video posted by AtariPacManPlus on October 7th, 2012:


http://youtu.be/pHUMf8ZH36Y

The game looks impressive, especially for a homebrew. The parallax scrolling is fantastic. I hate the low resolution, stretched out look of most 7800 games. I prefer the higher resolution look of NES games. Bentley Bear doesn't look low resolution though. It's very nice.

I wonder if the final version will have a wider variety of enemies and levels though. Right now, it looks very repetitive. For example, a fire level and ice level would help mix thing up. I also wonder if there could be more detail in the backgrounds, instead of just a solid blue sky or solid stripes of "leaves". Maybe some small trees or mountains far off in the distance, and/or clouds in the forest levels. Those are just nitpicks though. Great job so far.

[Greg2600]

Pretty sure that game is high resolution from PacManPlus, but it's utilizing the XM module Vendel is coming out with. It was not possible on the base 7800. Also a 144K game, far larger than anything the 7800 had at the time. Though that just means it would have cost much more to produce. He's supposed to have 40 levels, about a dozen enemies, and levels that are scrolling and not. The latest screenshots feature a new color palette and look very good. PacManPlus I think is taking some time off due to his work schedule, but he's not leaving. In short, he's probably the best Atari 8-bit homebrew programmer there is, and this game looks very good.

[Rob2600]

Pretty sure that game is high resolution from PacManPlus, but it's utilizing the XM module Vendel is coming out with.

I was told the Bentley Bear homebrew game runs on a stock 7800. Is that correct?

[7th lutz]

Also a 144K game, far larger than anything the 7800 had at the time.

That is not true. The Atari 7800 had two games that were 144k prior to the homebrew scene. Alien Brigade and Crossbow actually 144k games that were released by Atari.

[Greg2600]

I was told the Bentley Bear homebrew game runs on a stock 7800. Is that correct?

Call me a liar, you're right. It runs on the 7800, but Bob "PacManPlus" wasn't able to include sound without it the XM.


Because of the way I am making this game (and the fact that I am using the $4000-$7FFF area for graphics), I do need the XM for sound - as I want to utilize the Pokey in this game. I just can't see using TIA for this.

Well it looks like I have to reassess my assessment of the console. However, it seems Bob is now permanently out of the hobby, which is a monumental loss. Nobody, I mean nobody was programming on the 7800 near his level.

[Leo_A]

If only Atari had had Bob on their team back in the 1980's...

Here's his latest masterpiece.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PQtbrP66JNY

[Greg2600]

The man is amazing. The rom is not out yet for that right?

[7th lutz]

The man is amazing. The rom is not out yet for that right?
I assume the link I below has the final version of Astro Blaster:

Here is the rom: http://atariage.com/forums/topic/219854-fighter-pilots-needed-in-sector-wars/?p=2918746

[Leo_A]

The man is amazing. The rom is not out yet for that right?

He always releases his stuff before it's even finished to show it off, excite the community, and get input.

So if you know that he's doing a certain project, it's a safe bet that there's a current rom revision for it out there right now since the WIP release usually is released concurrently with the announcement. And he always releases revisions as his projects evolve to get input and so the community can thoroughly bug test it before arriving at a release candidate.

He's not the type that wants to keep his work hidden from the community. If you download a emulator or have a Cuttle Cart II or acquire the upcoming Harmony 2, you can follow along on the real deal.

[Greg2600]

Yes Bob always releases his roms, wish others were more like him. Thanks for the link, normally he puts them on the 1st post of the thread. Great game for sure, the voice is really cool though the rest of the sound effects are 2600.

Unfortunately all I can do is emulate, since there's no way I'm giving in to the ransoms for CC2.

[Leo_A]

Just watch out for the Harmony 2 sometime this year. :)

http://atariage.com/forums/topic/165892-h2/

[Greg2600]

Just watch out for the Harmony 2 sometime this year. :)

http://atariage.com/forums/topic/165892-h2/

So they say! I'm still on the fence with it though, because if it doesn't have Pokey I may pass.

[Leo_A]

I hope it has one since I'm the guy in that thread that was too worried about trying to install one in his Cuttle Cart II (And I'm not about to risk it in the mail). So I've been Pokeyless in all these homebrews. :(

Plus, I hate the process of adding games to this thing where as it's extremely simple with more modern multicarts like the Harmony for the 2600 (Which is getting an enhanced version soon as well :)).

[Greg2600]

I wouldn't be doing it myself either. I really don't understand the delay on the 7800 "Harmony," I thought Batari had it working fine. I know he's gone through 2 or 3 major redesigns, and if it's not to incorporate Pokey or perhaps more RAM to be XM-like, I don't see the point?

[Leo_A]

I really don't think we have to worry.

I hope they're not thinking that since the XM has a Pokey that they can get away without including it. There are going to be 7800 fans that drag their feet, are cheap, can't afford it, or it slipped by unnoticed or they joined the scene down the road that won't have the XM module.

With the Harmony 2600 cartridge, the extra hardware that's tapped into with a homebrew like Space Rocks is present I believe in order just for the multicart to function (The Melody board with an on-board processor and extra memory). Since the 7800 has plenty of HP to run a menu driven multicart as is, which I believe is primarily why that hardware is present on the 2600 Harmony, have they ever even planned on extra functionality beyond high score support to enhance the capabilities of the stock hardware for the 7800 Harmony counterpart?

I hope a Pokey can at least be added by the user after the fact. I got in on the 2nd production run of the CCII and it was too pricey new to risk it. And it's worth way too much now to even consider it unless the H2 drives its value way down someday down the line. But a sub $100 readily available multicart without a limited production run, I'm willing to self install it.

[Greg2600]

Well, let's not forget that Batari has designed an upgrade Harmony "Encore" for the 2600, with more memory that is catering to the ever more complex 2600 homebrew. So again, in that respect, it would be swell if the 7800 Harmony had "XM" features but I don't think it will. CPUWIZ only devised his board in the last month or so, totally interdependently. He's not interested in doing a large-scale product like a SD-card cartridge. From the get-go, despite the complaints on AA from people like myself, it has sounded like the 7800 Harmony would not even have Pokey (XM will if it ever get's shipped). It might have a spot for a Pokey chip, but Batari would not be installing it. To be honest, as I said, for batari to sell a cart that does flash, and Vendel to sell the XM that does pokey and XM and high score, that's a $200+ investment to do something that CPU Wiz designed and could probably sell for half that. That's a savings to collectors of at least $100 they could have spent on homebrew games.

[Leo_A]

I actually mentioned the new Harmony 2600 cartridge but edited it out since it was long enough as it was. :)

Edit: Actually, it's still there but it was easy to miss.


I hope it has one since I'm the guy in that thread that was too worried about trying to install one in his Cuttle Cart II (And I'm not about to risk it in the mail). So I've been Pokeyless in all these homebrews.

Plus, I hate the process of adding games to this thing where as it's extremely simple with more modern multicarts like the Harmony for the 2600 (Which is getting an enhanced version soon as well).

[extra_anchovy]

someone needs to upload some screenshots of these games...

[extra_anchovy]

what happened to the Atari 7800 XM module? I put down money for it a LONG time ago, like 3 or 4 years ago, and still haven't heard anything about it. In fact it's been so long that I no longer have that credit card and email address, and I have tried to contact Kurt but never receive any reply. kinda sucks that the money is just lost forever now, you'd think he would at least contact people to let them know whats going on. he should still have my address and phone number. well I suppose that's what I get for supporting new retro gaming developments

[Leo_A]

If you indeed purchased one, I don't know why you'd be asking here since you would know about AtariAge and be following things there. The next update is expected in March and hopefully they're getting close. Seems like it has been minor things that have been the hold up over the past 12 months or so from my occasional followings of things and that they're just taking this time to make sure they get it right.

I'm sure if you provide adequate contact information that Legacy Engineering would gladly refund you what you've paid if you're dissatisfied. They haven't flown the coup or even been AWOL like it appears is the case with Opcode with his half delivered Super Game Module for the Colecovision (Really glad when he went berzerk a few years ago on AA that it scared me away from following through with the SGM). Curt Vendel is a class act and a very prominent member of the classic gaming community so there's really no need for concern.

There's unarguably room for dissatisfaction here and I bet you that Curt is at the top of that list with how long and involved this deal has ended up, but I'm sure you won't have any trouble receiving a refund or your product in the end if you decide to wait it out.

[sloan]

what happened to the Atari 7800 XM module? I put down money for it a LONG time ago, like 3 or 4 years ago, and still haven't heard anything about it. In fact it's been so long that I no longer have that credit card and email address, and I have tried to contact Kurt but never receive any reply. kinda sucks that the money is just lost forever now, you'd think he would at least contact people to let them know whats going on. he should still have my address and phone number. well I suppose that's what I get for supporting new retro gaming developments

Curt had some health issues that came to light in a thread where he went off, cursed a lot, and otherwise said he was done with doing any retro projects. Granted, there were some posting in that thread who went a little overboard, but it all could have been minimized if he would have kept investors up to date and communicated better. I am just glad I never put money down on that one.

[extra_anchovy]

I'd be happy if he just replied to my emails saying it's still happening, will be another 1-2 years or whatever and you're still on the list for getting one. Also if he allowed me to update my details as my home and email address had changed, I'm worried about him not being able to contact me and me losing the money/not getting the system. He should have replied to my email I don't see why I should have to post on Atari age, besides if you speak ill of him on AA then thou shall be bombarded with flames :onfire:. Also the legacy site is gone which is where I setup my account, I thought I could just login and change my address there, etc but it's changed and the legacy account didn't carry over. if you're taking peoples money for something not yet developed, that's gonna be completed some time in the future, especially when it carries on for so many years it should just be common courtesy to keep the people informed who put their money down to fund it in the first place. he could just send an email every year to everyone who pre-ordered that way people know it's still happening, progress is being made and their money/order/details are still safe.

[7th lutz]

The last update from Curt was in November on Atariage with it being post 31.

http://atariage.com/forums/topic/218921-xm-any-chance-it-will-be-in-our-hands-by-christmas/?p=2875154

[Greg2600]

Firstly I don't want to have a Curt flame-fest here either, but sticking to the facts, it sounds as if there are still technical issues his group are working out. As often happens, when you don't regularly update people, they get angry. In the case of the batari 7800 cartridge, which is taking far too long for my liking :(, he didn't take any money. So he has no obligation there. Legacy/Curt took a lot of money, quite some time ago, and hasn't delivered. What's so odd there is that he showed it off at conventions, and so most people are puzzled as to why it's still not ready. As Leo said, Atari Age is really the place to go complain about this. There's nothing anybody here can do about it!

I haven't followed it much, because I was never interested in the XM. To me, it didn't up the 7800 that much, and I'm equally unsure if any homebrewers would ever be able to port something really impressive like a Contra or Alex Kidd. When the other chap (CPUWiz) developed a cartridge that did everything the XM did pretty much (aside from high scores) in a couple weeks, it makes you wonder? I said from the beginning that I felt it was counterproductive to have one team making a flash cartridge, the other making the XM, and requiring people to buy both. That's $200 to barely upgrade a somewhat lackluster system, to say nothing of games.

[sloan]

Does anyone know if Bentley Bear ever officially released? Did Bob release the ROM for free distro like he usually does?

[7th lutz]

Does anyone know if Bentley Bear ever officially released? Did Bob release the ROM for free distro like he usually does?
Bentley Bear isn't officially released on Cartridge yet for people to buy. Bob did release the rom for free distro though:
link: http://atariage.com/forums/topic/199637-work-in-progress-bentley-bear-crystal-quest/?p=2857155