old school to HD

[LimitedEditionMuseum]

I just called Radio Shack to ask if they had some sort of converter that can connect old school consoles to HD TV, he said there is no way.....is this true? As of now, I only want my Saturn, Neo Geo, and SNES connected. How do I do this, I know you guys know.
Pleas explain as simple as possible.....thanks

[Zoe F]

If your TV has composite inputs, you can just plug them in. If you want them to actually look pretty good, you'll probably want to invest in an upscaler like the XRGB-Mini.

[Trebuken]

He is incorrect of course. You need to specify which system(s), and what type of connection. For some you may need to mod the console or buy a converter.

[theclaw]

Composite is the starter set. A lossy and easy/cheap option with vast compatibility. Some consoles or TVs have lower quality processing, in practice tends to look worse than it should.

External scalers range in price from about $40 to over $400. You usually want to feed those devices to the best image possible to work from. Most versions of Saturn, Neo Geo, and SNES have RGB lines at their AV jack. (often used in Europe for SCART)

[Dave Farquhar]

The others are right, just try the same composite cables you used to get a good display on a CRT TV and see how it looks. The quality varies depending on the TV.

Just yesterday I picked up a 7-inch portable LCD TV on sale that had composite inputs. So far I've only tried it with an N64 because that was what I had handy, but the display looked good. It's only a 480i model, so that helps. 480i models are scarce, of course, and you won't have much selection for size, but if you can manage to find a 480i LCD TV, it will look better than 720p or 1080p since a 480i display is a much closer multiple to what the classic game consoles output.

As for Radio Shack, it's anyone's guess whether the guy working there at any given time knows much. You may get someone who only knows cell phones and how to work the register, or you might get a tinkerer who's working there out of love for electronics. The former happens a lot more frequently than the latter, especially in recent years.

I could tell you some stories about selling electronics at retail for a couple of years, but don't want to hijack your thread. Let's just say store managers generally don't want experts, and leave it at that.

[LimitedEditionMuseum]

Thanks guys but I REALLY need some pics or links...I am so lost on even the simplest electronics. I just had to Google composite cable

[Flam]

If your TV has composite inputs, you can just plug them in. If you want them to actually look pretty good, you'll probably want to invest in an upscaler like the XRGB-Mini.

I actually am looking for something similar to this XRGB-Mini, but the price is around $450 which I find extremely high, wouldn't it be better to just but an older CRT TV. I've got one upstairs that I'm thinking about hooking my NES up to.

[LimitedEditionMuseum]

So there is no simple converter, I don't care about a super clear pic

[Atarileaf]

He is incorrect of course.

Whats that old Radio Shack joke tag line: "You've got questions? We've got blank stares" :D

[Drixxel]

So there is no simple converter, I don't care about a super clear pic

The thing is, you don't need a converter as long as you have a composite or, better case scenario, an s-video input on your HDTV. Unless you've been connecting all of your consoles via RF (the cable with the screw tip that you need to thread into place on the back of a TV) and don't have any other cables lying around, you probably already have everything you need to get a picture of some quality on your HDTV with the consoles you've mentioned.

This is what your typical SNES composite cable looks like:
5899

And this is the sort of thing you're likely to see on the back, or side, of your HDTV:
5900

The idea being that you want to match up the yellow, red and white plugs on the end of your composite cable with the inline yellow, red and white inputs on your TV. Plug everything in, power on your console and television, select the proper input on your TV (AV 1, Video 1, something like that), et voilà.

[LimitedEditionMuseum]

ok, the TV has those ports but the NEO GEO has that screw in one, i think its called a coax? the only screw in connection on the TV is for the CABLE, can it connect to there because Im not running cable to it so its free.

[Zoe F]

I actually am looking for something similar to this XRGB-Mini, but the price is around $450 which I find extremely high, wouldn't it be better to just but an older CRT TV. I've got one upstairs that I'm thinking about hooking my NES up to.

Sure, having an additional CRT sitting around would be a great option for someone who has a lot of room. The issue is that a lot of people might not have that much extra space, or they might have a large HDTV that they'd like to get even more use out of. Finding cheap, used, fully-functional CRTs above 27-32" is pretty tough, but lots of people already have LCDs and Plasma TVs which are considerably larger than that.

[sparf]

ok, the TV has those ports but the NEO GEO has that screw in one, i think its called a coax? the only screw in connection on the TV is for the CABLE, can it connect to there because Im not running cable to it so its free.

That's where it's intended to go.

Those boxes are why TVs used to have to be turned to Channel 3 or 4 in order to play games. If you had cable, you'd plug the tv cable into the back of the box and then the wire from the box into the coax/cable port on the TV and bam, TV when the game isn't on, but when you set it to channel 3 or 4, turn on the magic game box and boom. Vidjagames.

[wiggyx]

Man, coax looks so bad on every modern TV that I've used that I would sooner buy a CRT. Soooooo blurry mess...



Finding cheap, used, fully-functional CRTs above 27-32" is pretty tough, but lots of people already have LCDs and Plasma TVs which are considerably larger than that.

They're plentiful and dirt cheap around me. I grabbed a 32" Sony SD WEGA for 50 bucks and a 27" Trinitron for like 30 bucks a couple of months ago. I literally found the 27" and 32" via Craigslist on the same day that I decided I wanted to buy a large CRT to play light guns games on.

Like everything in the used market, availability seems to have a lot to do with geography.

[Dave Farquhar]

Finding cheap, used, fully-functional CRTs above 27-32" is pretty tough, but lots of people already have LCDs and Plasma TVs which are considerably larger than that.

Try estate sales. Go to www.estatesales.net, click on your state, then on the nearest city. Good estate sale listings have pictures, so if you spy a CRT TV in one of the images, it's worth a visit. You won't have a lot of competition. If you want a deal, go on Sunday. The later it gets in the day, the lower the prices get, especially on stuff like TVs.

Though, as I recall, there never were a lot of CRTs much larger than 32". Even a 32" CRT is rather large and unwieldy, so I'm not sure I'd want anything larger than that.

In my area, 32" CRTs are plentiful. I called a used TV shop about my 32" CRT a couple of years ago. I'd have gladly unloaded it for $20. They said they had more 32" sets than they needed, though they would have been interested in a slightly smaller set. After asking around, one of my wife's friends ended up wanting it, so we gave it to her.

[LimitedEditionMuseum]

That's where it's intended to go.

Those boxes are why TVs used to have to be turned to Channel 3 or 4 in order to play games. If you had cable, you'd plug the tv cable into the back of the box and then the wire from the box into the coax/cable port on the TV and bam, TV when the game isn't on, but when you set it to channel 3 or 4, turn on the magic game box and boom. Vidjagames.

thanks for all the help guys...this is what i needed. I screwed it into the one that says CABLE, flipped it on channel 3 and bam!!!!!! NAM 1975. my Nephew did it an laughed like hell because he wants to play what all other kids want to play.COD

[Gameguy]

ok, the TV has those ports but the NEO GEO has that screw in one, i think its called a coax? the only screw in connection on the TV is for the CABLE, can it connect to there because Im not running cable to it so its free.
I'm surprised there are people who don't know what a coaxial cable looks like or how to hook one up, it's how everything was hooked up for about 30 years only recently becoming more uncommon with modern TVs. Especially when it's on a site that specializes with older equipment that primarily uses these connections. No offense, I'm just surprised by it.


Sure, having an additional CRT sitting around would be a great option for someone who has a lot of room. The issue is that a lot of people might not have that much extra space, or they might have a large HDTV that they'd like to get even more use out of. Finding cheap, used, fully-functional CRTs above 27-32" is pretty tough, but lots of people already have LCDs and Plasma TVs which are considerably larger than that.
If you don't have a lot of space it would probably be better to have a smaller set like a 13", you need bigger ones if you're going to be sitting further away from it. If you're up close you'll only need a smaller set, we only have a 13" tv set up in the living room as we're pretty close to it.

Honestly it's not so tough to find cheap larger CRTs, there's a few at any time on the craigslist free section. People just want them picked up for free as they're so heavy these owners can't move them alone to just get rid of them. I have a few spare large TVs I was given for free, I really don't have the space for them but I figure I should get them now before they really become hard to find and would cost quite a bit to buy. Light gun games need these types of TVs to work so anyone into older games should keep at least one of these around.

[wiggyx]

Though, as I recall, there never were a lot of CRTs much larger than 32". Even a 32" CRT is rather large and unwieldy, so I'm not sure I'd want anything larger than 32".

I'm with ya. My 32" weighs about 250lbs and that's already WAY too much for me to deal with.

I'm not positive, but I don't think there was an SD tube larger than 40". I know I've never seen one, but I can imagine it must have required a mountain of glass to product the tube.


I'm surprised there are people who don't know what a coaxial cable looks like

It might make sense if you're really young, like 17 or so. I figure its not likely that someone would be messing around too much with that sort of thing until they're at least 10 years old, and if that were the case for a 17 or 18 year old, then their only exposure to A/V connections may not pre-date 2005.


Honestly it's not so tough to find cheap larger CRTs, there's a few at any time on the craigslist free section. People just want them picked up for free as they're so heavy these owners can't move them alone to just get rid of them. I have a few spare large TVs I was given for free, I really don't have the space for them but I figure I should get them now before they really become hard to find and would cost quite a bit to buy. Light gun games need these types of TVs to work so anyone into older games should keep at least one of these around.


Again, it's really gonna vary depending on where you live. There seriously may not be any where he lives. I often read about folks finding these great old school goldmine lots on CL in other areas, but I think the gamer culture here is strong, and it seems like EVERYONE knows what their stuff is worth. So that stuff either doesn't end up on CL, or it does for prices at or higher than eBay rates :/

Also, if anyone is really itching to play light gun games on a large screen, then hunt down an old SD rear projection unit. They're hard to find, even more so in working condition, but they work as well as any non-digital SD tube for gun games and you can sit WAY back with a buddy and blast away :D

[LimitedEditionMuseum]

I know its crazy but I have NEVER connected anything to a TV ever. I never had to...it was just always done.

[Gameguy]

It might make sense if you're really young, like 17 or so. I figure its not likely that someone would be messing around too much with that sort of thing until they're at least 10 years old, and if that were the case for a 17 or 18 year old, then their only exposure to A/V connections may not pre-date 2005.
I'm just in my 20's but I still know about record players or 8-tracks, and I know about the earlier 2-prong TV connections common in the 70's and earlier. Even if we didn't own old equipment we knew other people who did, like I said I'm surprised there's anyone besides young little kids who never saw these coaxial connections before. I would expect schools would still keep old VHS players around for old educational tapes, usually the students would know how to use this type of equipment and see how it's hooked up. Even cable TV companies still use this type of cable for service, or for cable modems. At the very least if you're into collecting older consoles, I would assume you'd know what this connection is and would see older TVs or electronic equipment while looking for games. Again I don't mean to offend anyone, I'm just really surprised by it.



Again, it's really gonna vary depending on where you live. There seriously may not be any where he lives. I often read about folks finding these great old school goldmine lots on CL in other areas, but I think the gamer culture here is strong, and it seems like EVERYONE knows what their stuff is worth. So that stuff either doesn't end up on CL, or it does for prices at or higher than eBay rates :/

Also, if anyone is really itching to play light gun games on a large screen, then hunt down an old SD rear projection unit. They're hard to find, even more so in working condition, but they work as well as any non-digital SD tube for gun games and you can sit WAY back with a buddy and blast away :D
I'm pretty sure LimitedEditionMuseum mentioned earlier in another thread that he lives in LA, I just checked out the LA craigslist free section and there's plenty of CRTs. Several are Sony Trinitrons too.
http://losangeles.craigslist.org/search/zip?query=tv&srchType=A&minAsk=&maxAsk=

It's been awhile since I've found anything game related that's good/priced well on craigslist but actual TVs are different, everyone is just getting rid of them. Someone I know offered to give me a working Sony HDTV CRT for free but I passed on it as he said it requires 4 people to carry it. I have no way to move it, get it home, or set it up anywhere. Too bad as it apparently has a great looking picture, and it would have been nice to have a high definition TV.

[Greg2600]

Most converters from composite to say VGA or even HDMI don't do much good. One consideration is that some old systems can output RGB, and if you get a SCART cable, you can then run that through a converter to VGA or HDMI even. Genesis, Master System, SNES, I know can.

[Flam]

Sure, having an additional CRT sitting around would be a great option for someone who has a lot of room. The issue is that a lot of people might not have that much extra space, or they might have a large HDTV that they'd like to get even more use out of. Finding cheap, used, fully-functional CRTs above 27-32" is pretty tough, but lots of people already have LCDs and Plasma TVs which are considerably larger than that.

As stated earlier, I've got to believe you can buy a used CRT for really cheap like $20-$40. Plus they don't really take that much room and I would never go over 32" even if I did have the space.

[Dave Farquhar]

I know its crazy but I have NEVER connected anything to a TV ever. I never had to...it was just always done.

This is unsolicited advice, and I hope I don't come off as condescending, but it's good that you asked the question then. I lost my dad at age 19, then spent my 20s learning how to do the things we just took for granted that he'd do, and that he never taught me, because I never thought to ask.

And, truth be told, I was 35 before I needed to change a light fixture, so I guess I'm still learning that kind of stuff.


As stated earlier, I've got to believe you can buy a used CRT for really cheap like $20-$40. Plus they don't really take that much room and I would never go over 32" even if I did have the space.

I agree. And if there doesn't happen to be one on Craigslist, post that you're looking for one and willing to pay $20-$30. Do it around the 1st of the month or the 15th of the month, when bills are due. I guarantee someone out there has a CRT TV they don't really need and that $30 will help them pay the rent, the electric bill, or something else.

[LimitedEditionMuseum]

[
I'm kinda in the same way but I had a disability that was just "cured" with meds. I never had to go certain things and when I finally moved, it was with my computer nerd GF.


QUOTE=Dave Farquhar;1937566]This is unsolicited advice, and I hope I don't come off as condescending, but it's good that you asked the question then. I lost my dad at age 19, then spent my 20s learning how to do the things we just took for granted that he'd do, and that he never taught me, because I never thought to ask.

And, truth be told, I was 35 before I needed to change a light fixture, so I guess I'm still learning that kind of stuff.



I agree. And if there doesn't happen to be one on Craigslist, post that you're looking for one and willing to pay $20-$30. Do it around the 1st of the month or the 15th of the month, when bills are due. I guarantee someone out there has a CRT TV they don't really need and that $30 will help them pay the rent, the electric bill, or something else.[/QUOTE]

[wiggyx]

I'm just in my 20's but I still know about record players or 8-tracks, and I know about the earlier 2-prong TV connections common in the 70's and earlier. Even if we didn't own old equipment we knew other people who did, like I said I'm surprised there's anyone besides young little kids who never saw these coaxial connections before. I would expect schools would still keep old VHS players around for old educational tapes, usually the students would know how to use this type of equipment and see how it's hooked up. Even cable TV companies still use this type of cable for service, or for cable modems. At the very least if you're into collecting older consoles, I would assume you'd know what this connection is and would see older TVs or electronic equipment while looking for games. Again I don't mean to offend anyone, I'm just really surprised by it.


You completely missed my point. Your experience and knowledge aren't in question.

I outlined a hypothetical in order to better illustrate how it's entirely possible that someone under the age of 20 (or possibly over the age of 20) could have had little to no exposure to such things. It was meant to provide you with a perspective other than your own. Does that make sense?



I would expect schools would still keep old VHS players around for old educational tapes, usually the students would know how to use this type of equipment and see how it's hooked up

This is an assumption. When I was a child, we were not allowed to touch the AV equipment in school under ANY circumstances. I sure as hell wasn't going to learn how to connect a VCR to a TV at school.



I'm pretty sure LimitedEditionMuseum mentioned earlier in another thread that he lives in LA, I just checked out the LA craigslist free section and there's plenty of CRTs. Several are Sony Trinitrons too.
http://losangeles.craigslist.org/search/zip?query=tv&srchType=A&minAsk=&maxAsk=

It's been awhile since I've found anything game related that's good/priced well on craigslist but actual TVs are different, everyone is just getting rid of them. Someone I know offered to give me a working Sony HDTV CRT for free but I passed on it as he said it requires 4 people to carry it. I have no way to move it, get it home, or set it up anywhere. Too bad as it apparently has a great looking picture, and it would have been nice to have a high definition TV.

I haven't read that thread, so pardon my ignorance.

[Leo_A]

It might make sense if you're really young, like 17 or so. I figure its not likely that someone would be messing around too much with that sort of thing until they're at least 10 years old, and if that were the case for a 17 or 18 year old, then their only exposure to A/V connections may not pre-date 2005.

Maybe things are just strange here, but the compressed HD digital signal to my cable box from my cable company arrives in my house via the very same coaxial cable from my wall that my standard definition analog signals have been doing for decades. It's only the connection between the cable box to my tv where uncompressed HD signals are being sent via HDMI that has changed in today's HDTV age.

Coaxial connections are a far ways off from joining VHF and UHF screw connections I'd say. I've never even seen or heard of a HDTV that has omitted a coaxial connector even though things like S-Video connections have disappeared, VGA has all but disappeared, and component connections are starting to disappear.

[wiggyx]

Maybe things are just strange here, but the compressed HD digital signal to my cable box from my cable company arrives in my house via the very same coaxial cable from my wall that my standard definition analog signals have been doing for decades. It's only the connection between the cable box to my tv where uncompressed HD signals are being sent via HDMI that has changed in today's HDTV age.

Coaxial connections are a far ways off from joining VHF and UHF screw connections I'd say. I've never even seen or heard of a HDTV that has omitted a coaxial connector even though things like S-Video connections have disappeared, VGA has all but disappeared, and component connections are starting to disappear.

Infrastructure.

For the cable companies to change over to a more modern format they would have to revamp their existing infrastructure, and that would cost a FORTUNE! So coax will prolly be around for a while longer, like you said :/

[theclaw]

Well there are tunerless sets. For those you must have an external device that can encode coax into formats the display accepts like composite, HDMI, or otherwise.

[titpickle shatpatty]

This may be a bit of a dumb question and trust me I've tried searching for an answer. I noticed in the stand alone review for the Framemeister (here http://retrogaming.hazard-city.de/framemeister.html) they mention it uses the Marvel chipset. I happen to have an Oppo BDP-93. Just because it has the same chipset wouldn't mean I'd get lucky and be able to use it as an upscaler would I? Iirc there are no inputs on the deck, just outputs.

[BlastProcessing402]

Most converters from composite to say VGA or even HDMI don't do much good. One consideration is that some old systems can output RGB, and if you get a SCART cable, you can then run that through a converter to VGA or HDMI even. Genesis, Master System, SNES, I know can.

If he had to look up composite on the internet to figure out what it was, he's certainly not going to know a weird foreign connector like SCART. LOL

[Parodius Duh!]

I would never want to play a console on a TV it was never meant to be played on nor designed for. Classic games designed for CRT televisions look best on CRT televisions, and thats all there is to it. Gamers that buy HD TVs and toss their old CRT away are incredibly foolish. Especially if classic gaming is your main bag. I dont have a single HD Television in my house and thats the way things will always be. ;)

[Tanooki]

I've got a pair of modern tvs bought 1yr and 5yrs ago. The older is a Panasonic 26" LCD, 1080p 60hz and the other Samsung 46" LED, 120hz.

Both I have jacked the NES, SNES and N64 into using either (both) RF and RCA cables. Each tv has had different levels of quality output and it's not just because one screen is larger. Each one will process the image differently internally. The Panasonic makes my games look almost computer LCD emulator like sharp(ie: no filters in emulator.) The Samsung though, it causes the images to be more soft, not so much 'muddy' but it's like if you have a couple of RF cables strung together and then having your cable tv feed through it which weakens it further. In both cases the N64 suck on it, at a base level same 'visual' quality but 1st gen 3Dsystems don't work right on LCD/Plasmas because the systems cheat using CRT tech to pull off some visuals (but that's another story.) One certain game maker of sorts on SNES, Hudson, their games look awful on either set as their coders would cheat and use scanlines to help draw the on screen image, and when lost on a LCD all the sharp CRT visuals turn into little blobby muddy messes so Super Bomberman and Adventure Island look hideous.

Also of note, and this even bleeds into the Wii with the Mario Allstars 25th package is that they don't run right on the Samsung, you get gameplay lag, less than a second but enough to screw up any timing sensitive game like a Mario platformer. The Samsung being 120hz and the video games at 60hz(tv has no 'game mode' persay) it has down scale the video which causes an input lag from you in what you press vs what you see on screen, maybe a quarter second and enough to get you killed. The Panasonic at 60hz doesn't have this issue.

[Greg2600]

If he had to look up composite on the internet to figure out what it was, he's certainly not going to know a weird foreign connector like SCART. LOLHey now. I was responding not just to him but also to anyone who might read the thread, and was wondering the same thing.


I would never want to play a console on a TV it was never meant to be played on nor designed for. Classic games designed for CRT televisions look best on CRT televisions, and thats all there is to it. Gamers that buy HD TVs and toss their old CRT away are incredibly foolish. Especially if classic gaming is your main bag. I dont have a single HD Television in my house and thats the way things will always be. ;)While I agree, you're never going to get a "great" clear image from one of those systems on an HDTV. As Tanooki just wrote, they look muddy. 95% of classic gamers don't care, and the rest seek out the equipment I mentioned.

[LimitedEditionMuseum]

I see what you guys are saying. The picture quality is horrible.

[Tanooki]

It is and it isn't, sadly completely varies if you read my post depending on the tv and it's capabilities. A lot of those new ones have all these annoying filters and things that really aren't necessary that can muddle an old console games visuals both in quality and stink it up with lag causing you problems in timing intensive games.

Oh and with that NeoGeo of yours with that COAX plug, I'm betting it's attached to a little box that screws into your plug and has a wire off it to the neogeo? Those boxes you can actually attach many of them together and allow more gaming systems to run off the same plug, but as you do add more after a certain point it hurts the visuals too.

[Gameguy]

I would never want to play a console on a TV it was never meant to be played on nor designed for. Classic games designed for CRT televisions look best on CRT televisions, and thats all there is to it. Gamers that buy HD TVs and toss their old CRT away are incredibly foolish. Especially if classic gaming is your main bag. I dont have a single HD Television in my house and thats the way things will always be. ;)
This is what I don't get. People insist on using authentic hardware for the systems and games to avoid inaccuracies with emulation but choose to view the games on a display that's completely different to what the systems were designed to be used on. If you're using an HD set you might as well just hook up a PC to it full of emulators.

[Kiddo]

This is what I don't get. People insist on using authentic hardware for the systems and games to avoid inaccuracies with emulation but choose to view the games on a display that's completely different to what the systems were designed to be used on. If you're using an HD set you might as well just hook up a PC to it full of emulators.

There's a huge difference between quantitatively objective emulation/clone hardware compatibility issues caused by the nature of emulation/clone hardware, and someone thinking a game doesn't look as good on one's TV (Of which whether it's objectively apparent tends to depend on enough factors that such claims would be taken case-by-case).

Not only that, but it's silly to say that these retro games were "made" for exactly one kind of visual display when they usually (There's a few notable exceptions) have multiple kinds of video outs to begin with. Old videogame hardware was designed to interface in anything that accepted those connections, whether they were CRT TVs, projectors, or VCR Recorders. If the hardware developers were that picky about what should run it, they'd use proprietary connections, adapted something akin to Macrovision for game consoles, or use built-in screens. Has anyone who actually developed video games for the NES ever gone around in interviews saying "Please don't play my old video games on a HDTV?"

Anyway, on the note of the HDTVs around my house, I have two nearly polar opposites in terms of how well it takes my retro games. An older Polaroid I got doesn't seem to want to take any of my consoles via composite/S-video, which can be rather annoying, especially for the consoles I outright don't have coax for. I probably need to do an indirect connection via a VCR to pop stuff in.
In contrast, a recent HDTV I got at a Black Friday sale earlier seems like it can show anything I can throw at it (Got my Super Famicom/Satellaview setup hooked up to it). It also doesn't have any control lag that I can notice.
It also has all the connections people here are saying are being phased out of HDTVs, weirdly enough. Perhaps I got lucky there? There's still an old CRT in my basement, mostly kept it because it was the only CRT in our house remaining that can be considered "good" (the rest were either broken or only took coax). A few of the A/Vs in it are broked, though, as is the S-video, unfortunately. It's wearing out. :(

[RCM]

I actually am looking for something similar to this XRGB-Mini, but the price is around $450 which I find extremely high, wouldn't it be better to just but an older CRT TV. I've got one upstairs that I'm thinking about hooking my NES up to.

I have a Mini but heard the XRGB-3 along with other scalers like the DVDO Edge are more than competent (and cheaper). You can probably get a used XRGB-3 in good condition for $300 or less.

[Gameguy]

Not only that, but it's silly to say that these retro games were "made" for exactly one kind of visual display when they usually (There's a few notable exceptions) have multiple kinds of video outs to begin with. Old videogame hardware was designed to interface in anything that accepted those connections, whether they were CRT TVs, projectors, or VCR Recorders. If the hardware developers were that picky about what should run it, they'd use proprietary connections, adapted something akin to Macrovision for game consoles, or use built-in screens. Has anyone who actually developed video games for the NES ever gone around in interviews saying "Please don't play my old video games on a HDTV?"
Play NES Duck Hunt on an HDTV and I'll believe you. The system's video outputs are compatible with those on an HDTV so clearly the console was meant to be played on it.

You do have a point about proprietary connections. Of course, I assumed that they didn't worry about these consoles being played on HDTVs because these TVs didn't exist at the time. Maybe they planned ahead for compatibility this whole time after all, using their psychic powers.

[Kiddo]

Play NES Duck Hunt on an HDTV and I'll believe you.

I could actually do this on an emulation setup, although I wouldn't go through that effort just for a small handful of Zapper games when my NES is otherwise able to play the rest of the library fine.

In some cases, game software may be designed more with one kind of display in mind, but this tends to not be universally consistent even compared to games on the same hardware. Some 16-bit games looked great with a RGB image, but there are plenty of others in which the "Perfect" image ended up exposing how rendering tricks of a composite or coaxial would just look weird or wrong on a RGB (And this makes me think of the whole thing about modding hardware for RGB compatibility, but that's a tangent). For a more straightforward example, the Dreamcast had some software which could use VGA to produce a good image, and some software which refused to run in VGA. In a scenario like that in particular, can you really say that one setup in particular is "the way it's meant to be"?

On that note, the old Famicom is an example of a console with only one video out (a coaxial/RF), which likely influenced the Zapper's development (The original Famicom can pretty much only connect to older coaxial TVs due to coax+Japanese channel formats). Nintendo probably realized the issues when they added composite to the NES (And the latter Sharp and AV Famicom models) and someone thought to try hooking Duck Hunt up to a projector. When the SNES rolled around, Nintendo brought out the Super Scope, which used very different tech from the Zapper for a similar function, except it'd work independently of what the display was, even though non-CRT TV displays were still far from common at this point.

Blah blah blah, long post is long.

[wiggyx]

Light guns don't require CRT, just non-digital, non-HD refresh. The Super Scope, while different than older , simpler light gun designs, still doesn't work with HD boxes :/



Anyway, on the note of the HDTVs around my house, I have two nearly polar opposites in terms of how well it takes my retro games. An older Polaroid I got doesn't seem to want to take any of my consoles via composite/S-video, which can be rather annoying, especially for the consoles I outright don't have coax for. I probably need to do an indirect connection via a VCR to pop stuff in.
In contrast, a recent HDTV I got at a Black Friday sale earlier seems like it can show anything I can throw at it (Got my Super Famicom/Satellaview setup hooked up to it). It also doesn't have any control lag that I can notice.
It also has all the connections people here are saying are being phased out of HDTVs, weirdly enough. Perhaps I got lucky there? There's still an old CRT in my basement, mostly kept it because it was the only CRT in our house remaining that can be considered "good" (the rest were either broken or only took coax). A few of the A/Vs in it are broked, though, as is the S-video, unfortunately. It's wearing out. :(

I have the same sort of thing going on.

Samsung LCD HATES EVERYTHING pre-5th generation.

Sony DLP that is by far and away my favorite gaming TV for classic gaming, and I own 4 really decent Sony CRTs including a very late model non-HD WEGA. Image is extremely clear and crisp, more so than on any tube, and the colors, while not as punchy as a CRT, are still excellent. Just wish it worked with light guns :/

[LimitedEditionMuseum]

When I connect my SNES to my viso tv, the games and all the text looks really bad. Should I do what a lot of people here do and get one of those CRT or old school TVs?

[dukenukem]

they will look much better on crt tv.

[Gameguy]

I could actually do this on an emulation setup, although I wouldn't go through that effort just for a small handful of Zapper games when my NES is otherwise able to play the rest of the library fine.

In some cases, game software may be designed more with one kind of display in mind, but this tends to not be universally consistent even compared to games on the same hardware. Some 16-bit games looked great with a RGB image, but there are plenty of others in which the "Perfect" image ended up exposing how rendering tricks of a composite or coaxial would just look weird or wrong on a RGB (And this makes me think of the whole thing about modding hardware for RGB compatibility, but that's a tangent). For a more straightforward example, the Dreamcast had some software which could use VGA to produce a good image, and some software which refused to run in VGA. In a scenario like that in particular, can you really say that one setup in particular is "the way it's meant to be"?

On that note, the old Famicom is an example of a console with only one video out (a coaxial/RF), which likely influenced the Zapper's development (The original Famicom can pretty much only connect to older coaxial TVs due to coax+Japanese channel formats). Nintendo probably realized the issues when they added composite to the NES (And the latter Sharp and AV Famicom models) and someone thought to try hooking Duck Hunt up to a projector. When the SNES rolled around, Nintendo brought out the Super Scope, which used very different tech from the Zapper for a similar function, except it'd work independently of what the display was, even though non-CRT TV displays were still far from common at this point.

Blah blah blah, long post is long.
Emulation would be cheating. ;)

While the type of connection to hook up a console to a monitor does make a difference and I do feel that specific consoles are intended to be hooked up with specific types of connections(rather than modding them), with HDTVs the main problem is with the resolution and with the non-interlacing of the display rather than the type of connection used to hook up a console to it. Upscaling resolutions for games doesn't usually look that good and most of these games were meant to be displayed on an interlaced monitor while HDTVs aren't interlaced(some early HDTVs were interlaced but none are made that way now), having to de-interlace the signal causes some lag. Combine the de-interlacing with the upscaling and you start having enough lag to cause problems with games. Modern TVs do sometimes offer a "game mode" to reduce the lag but this works by minimizing the processing used to de-interlace the image so the quality deteriorates and you start getting artifacts and combing.

Honestly it's the same with standard DVDs. Often when I see reviews of DVDs the reviewers are complaining about technical faults which would only be noticable on HDTVs because of the upscaling, these problems won't usually be as noticable or even noticable at all on a standard TV. A lot of these problems have to do with the quality of the HDTV itself so some problems will only show up on certain TVs and won't show up on others, or it can be caused by the DVD player rather than the TV or a combination of the two together. Problems can be reduced depending on how well the DVD was mastered but ones with some faults noticable when upscaled on certain displays aren't necessarily caused by poor mastering. Older DVDs might have come out before progressive scan was common so I wouldn't say they were poorly mastered if they're interlaced. I'd rather just stick with old CRTs and not have to worry about this stuff.

You could just alter the light gun to make it still usable in other ways.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hxvEyYTQHC4


Light guns don't require CRT, just non-digital, non-HD refresh. The Super Scope, while different than older , simpler light gun designs, still doesn't work with HD boxes :/
For the Super Scope it uses cathode ray timing which is different than the older Zapper, but basically it needs a CRT to work as it works specifically with the technology of the CRT tube itself. I'll just copy a post from Wikipedia on light guns rather than rewriting it.

"When the player pulls the trigger, the computer (often assisted by the display circuitry) times how long it takes the electron beam to excite the phosphor at the location at which the gun is pointed. The light gun sends a signal after sensing the sudden small change in brightness of a point on the screen when the electron gun refreshes that spot. The computer then calculates the targeted position based on the monitor's horizontal refresh rate (the fixed amount of time it takes the beam to get from the left to right side of the screen). Either the computer provides a time base for the horizontal refresh rate through the controller's connector (as in the Super Scope), or the gun reads the composite video signal through a T-connector on the A/V cable (as in the GunCon 2). Once the computer knows where the gun is pointed, it can tell through collision detection if it coincides with the target or not."



When I connect my SNES to my viso tv, the games and all the text looks really bad. Should I do what a lot of people here do and get one of those CRT or old school TVs?
I would say yes.

[Sneak613]

I figured I'd chime in here with my 2 cents too.

I have a Sony Wega CRT TV currently, but have been in the market for a new TV for a while (not just for gaming), but all this talk of upscallers and stuff makes me worry that it's a waste of time buying a new TV.

I'll agree with what a few other users have already stated... Check your local ads (craigslist, kijiji) in the free section. I see CRT TV's in there all the time - and a lot of them are nice Sony's and such that people just want rid of, and are willing to give them away, if you're willing to go pick them up.

My question is: Does anybody figure that anytime in the future there will be any TV manufacturer that will have inputs or a "mode" specifically made for retro gaming? Basically a mode that you could select that would have predefined levels (from a particular input on the TV) that wouldn't induce lag, or image distortion or anything?? (I realize lightguns would still never work)...

If a TV manufacturer were to do this, I can't imagine it would drive the cost up too much, plus with so many retro gamers out there, you'd figure it would sell decently, right?

...Or maybe this is just a case of "wishful thinking", and I'm dreaming. ;)

[bigbacon]

I would never want to play a console on a TV it was never meant to be played on nor designed for. Classic games designed for CRT televisions look best on CRT televisions, and thats all there is to it. Gamers that buy HD TVs and toss their old CRT away are incredibly foolish. Especially if classic gaming is your main bag. I dont have a single HD Television in my house and thats the way things will always be. ;)

actually...other than light gun games, and not using the RF connection, they actually look pretty darn good to me on large TVs. I've been playing tons of SMS,NES,SNES,Gensis stuff on my 50in and they good, even on that large screen. It looks a hell of a lot better than an old CRT TV, specially if you are using RF on the CRT. I don't notice lag or image issues.

[theclaw]

Most HDTVs have much higher quality display panels, than upscaler units or analog input options.
Modern HD consoles should first be used to benchmark your TVs potential. That will help tell you how much improvement can be gained from XRGB type devices.

Besides composite or RF video from game consoles is a lossy source format. Video information already stripped away BEFORE it even begins to reach the TV's screen.

[Koga316]

Would a Composite to HDMI converter work well? Or does it have to be SCART? I ask because I have a Non-TMSS Model 1 Genesis and Retro Duo 3 and it would be great to not have to buy more cable if possible. But at least the Retro Duo has S Video. I'm stuck with only composite with my Genesis. If composite to HDMI works well, any recommendations that dont lag? I'd prefer if it was sold in stores like Radio Shack or Best Buy (or something along those lines...or stores..whatever) but if I have to buy it online I will. Thanks in advance