Super NES or Sega Genesis?

[Rickstilwell1]

Spider-Man/X-Men is horrible on the Genesis compared to the SNES version, but I'd love to see someone do a hack that improves both the graphics and audio restoring them to the looks of the SNES version. Technically it could be done couldn't it? Who here thinks the people who ported it to Genesis just did a lazy job and could have done better?

[Rob2600]

Genesis has 512 colors.

Genesis has transparency natively. You're thinking of opacity, which, ironically, the Genesis can also do, and without dithering - it just takes a little bit of creativity.

Interesting! Which Genesis games display 512 colors on the screen simultaneously? And which games feature true, non-dithered transparency/opacity? I'm excited to know.

[dra600n]

Interesting! Which Genesis games display 512 colors on the screen simultaneously? And which games feature true, non-dithered transparency/opacity? I'm excited to know.

The Genesis has a 512 color palette, I think one of the most "colorful" games (the most used colors at once) is near 100 with Vector Man for commercially released games (there may be others, but I'm not 100% sure). Charles MacDonald has a demo (I think, or maybe it was Tiido/tmee) somewhere that displays over 900 colors on screen at once using a combination of shadow/hilight mode, mixed with some CRAM manipulation during hblank.

Also, Vector Man's "train" stage shows beautiful background rotation and "mode 7" like effects, and I'm almost 100% positive it doesn't use extra chips on board.

As for non-dithered opacity, some sections of Crusaders of Centy/Soleil (depending on which region you're in), as well as Adventures of Batman & Robin

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hAGXJE1krqY (jump to when the platform starts scrolling, the Cheshire Cat's mouth is static behind the platform, and you can always see it)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H17R_eFTCKQ (Jump to 9:30 into the video, and watch as the boss comes onto the screen. Actually, that might be dithering, but still looks really good)

I know there are others, plus if you download the demo in my last post, load it up in your favorite Genesis emulator and you'll see opacity / silhouetting going on. It's not necessarily "opacity" as it's more of a priority/plane/sprite trick where the sprite has a lower priority than plane b, and with plane a still on top, plane b will show through where the sprite is, giving that opacity effect.

The Genesis was greatly underdeveloped for back in the day. There was so much untapped potential (though Adventures of Batman & Robin is a great example of the possibilities with the system)

[j_factor]

Interesting! Which Genesis games display 512 colors on the screen simultaneously?

Which SNES or Turbografx games display 512 colors on the screen simultaneously? Both systems are capable of doing so more easily than the Genesis (though Genny can do it too). And yet, you just don't see it. If there are any, it's likely only for stills or something.

[BricatSegaFan]

Which SNES or Turbografx games display 512 colors on the screen simultaneously? Both systems are capable of doing so more easily than the Genesis (though Genny can do it too). And yet, you just don't see it. If there are any, it's likely only for stills or something.

Hmm interesting point. But a Neogeo can do 4,096 colors simultaneously. Same processors as the genesis right? Just different amounts of ram and a custom graphics chip.

[RhetroAktive]

I really like both systems but SNES takes it for me just from their library of titles.

[Rob2600]

The Genesis has a 512 color palette, I think one of the most "colorful" games (the most used colors at once) is near 100 with Vector Man for commercially released games (there may be others, but I'm not 100% sure).

As for non-dithered opacity, some sections of Crusaders of Centy/Soleil (depending on which region you're in), as well as Adventures of Batman & Robin

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hAGXJE1krqY (jump to when the platform starts scrolling, the Cheshire Cat's mouth is static behind the platform, and you can always see it)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H17R_eFTCKQ (Jump to 9:30 into the video, and watch as the boss comes onto the screen. Actually, that might be dithering, but still looks really good)

As nice as Vector Man is, I would never consider that a very colorful game. It's quite drab and features a lot of noticeable dithering. Again, nice game, but not a shining example of the Genesis's color palette.

The scrolling track in Adventures of Batman and Robin appears to be a neat programming/art trick, creating the illusion of transparency, but it isn't true transparency. If you notice, the cat's face/smile moves and warps in perspective with the track. The entire checkerboard track/cat face seems to be a flat drawing, cleverly designed to *look* transparent. Kudos to the artists and programmers though for coming up with a good facsimile. I miss the old days of clever programming/art tricks in 2D games.

And the "transparent" bridges in the second video you posted *is* in fact just dithering. To my knowledge, there are no Genesis games that feature true transparency and I don't expect a home game console from the 1980s to be capable of that.

[dra600n]

As nice as Vector Man is, I would never consider that a very colorful game. It's quite drab and features a lot of noticeable dithering. Again, nice game, but not a shining example of the Genesis's color palette.

The scrolling track in Adventures of Batman and Robin appears to be a neat programming/art trick, creating the illusion of transparency, but it isn't true transparency. If you notice, the cat's face/smile moves and warps in perspective with the track. The entire checkerboard track/cat face seems to be a flat drawing, cleverly designed to *look* transparent. Kudos to the artists and programmers though for coming up with a good facsimile. I miss the old days of clever programming/art tricks in 2D games.

And the "transparent" bridges in the second video you posted *is* in fact just dithering. To my knowledge, there are no Genesis games that feature true transparency and I don't expect a home game console from the 1980s to be capable of that.

I agree that Vector Man is a drab colored game, but it still does use close to 100 colors on screen at once in some areas, which was my point in that the Genesis can display a good amount of colors at once. I think Adventures of Batman & Robin, Shining Force, and the Sonic games are perfect examples of using less than 61 colors to achieve beautiful graphics. That's also what I thought about Crusader of Centy after watching it again, but I was on my crappy laptop and it was very crappy with the video playback, so I couldn't tell 100%, thanks for clearing that up.

As for the opacity effect on the scrolling stage, yea, the mouth does move and warp, I'm pretty sure that's due to the tricks to make the platform warp and distort and with limited planes available (the Mad Hatter might not be a sprite, but on a plane, much like the Cheshire Cat boss). I'll see if I can get to that stage in emulation and start turning off layers to see (that game is hard as hell haha).

[tom]

Sonic the Hedgehog, bright colours, blinding speed, punchy music, loop-the-loop, excellent game and so differently fresh than the SMB genre.

[Black_Tiger]

Wow, so many people throwing around such random "facts". :P



So you're saying the SNES is the only one who can use the 256 color palette from the early 90's? Cool story. Genesis has 512 colors. Yes, SNES has more available, but it wasn't the only one.

"Mode 7" can be done on Genesis. In fact, is has been done. That's a moot point.

Sprite scaling and rotating can happen on the Genesis as well, even faster than the SNES if programmed correctly.

Genesis has transparency natively. You're thinking of opacity, which, ironically, the Genesis can also do, and without dithering - it just takes a little bit of creativity.

And yes, you are exaggerating.

ETA: Attached is an opacity demo for the non believer. You can use an emulator provided by the one you get your info from.

ETA #2: There's a demo out there showing it's possible to get over 1,000 colors on screen at once with the Genesis, with the possibility of displaying around 1,300 unique colors at once.

You're taking one spec from SNES and comparing it to a different one for Genesis.

The SNES has 32k colors to choose from, the Genesis has 512 to choose from. The SNES can use up to 8 palettes of 15 colors for sprites and 8 for tiles or a cap of 240 colors onscreen. The Genesis can use 2 palettes for tiles and 2 for sprites which caps out at 60 colors on-screen. But onscreen color counts aren't comparable. A Genesis game with 40 - 50 colors will look worse than a SNES or TG-16 version with the same amount of colors.

The Genesis pulled off a version of one use of Mode 7 once, but it can't do everything in software that Mode 7 does in hardware.

The SNES cannot scale or rotate sprites at all in hardware and likely never does in realtime. The Genesis could do simple scaling and/or rotation in realtime, but there's no point so it's almost always prerendered in 16-bit console games.

Tech demos like that are neat, but mean nothing for games.




As nice as Vector Man is, I would never consider that a very colorful game. It's quite drab and features a lot of noticeable dithering. Again, nice game, but not a shining example of the Genesis's color palette.

The scrolling track in Adventures of Batman and Robin appears to be a neat programming/art trick, creating the illusion of transparency, but it isn't true transparency. If you notice, the cat's face/smile moves and warps in perspective with the track. The entire checkerboard track/cat face seems to be a flat drawing, cleverly designed to *look* transparent. Kudos to the artists and programmers though for coming up with a good facsimile. I miss the old days of clever programming/art tricks in 2D games.

And the "transparent" bridges in the second video you posted *is* in fact just dithering. To my knowledge, there are no Genesis games that feature true transparency and I don't expect a home game console from the 1980s to be capable of that.

There is no such thing as "true" effects in the way you're thinking. Hardware support isn't the only way to do transparencies and the kind the SNES can do is limited, which is why it uses flickering most of the time. The Genesis does have hardware support for shadow/highlight effects, which are hardware supported transparencies. This is how some Genesis games technically display more colors on-screen, but it's not nearly the same thing as having better color. SNES games technically could have hundreds of colors if you count the hardware transparency overlap, but again, those kinds of color counts are meaningless.



Nice to see this all civil and not a whiny fight like a duo of these posts over at NA in the last month.

Here's a spin on it though. If you're rating hardware SuperNES hands down, it came out second, had better parts to work with. The SNES had some incredible capabilities despite having a slower main processor which made up for a lot due to DMA capabilities of the hardware and the chip clock cycles allow more per each moment than the base speedier Genesis. SNES was that first system that allowed for over a VGA level of colors on screen as each layer(of which there's 4) could do 256 colors and from a full run of 32K of them, and could do transparencies, Mode7 scaling and rotation, plus a video mode did high res graphics(Secret of Mana menus), and high color pictures(see Indiana Jones using movie stills.) The sound on it was epic, all using sampled audio and could playback up to 33khz(nearly CD quality) and could run twice the audio channels of the Genesis.

It can't really do 256 colors at once, but it is very much better than Genesis for color. The high res features is pretty much useless and only used in a few screens of a few games. Sonic 2 uses high res for 2 player split screen gameplay. Most Genesis games run at 320 pixels wide res and all SNES games run at 256'ish wide res. The SNES is very much inferior resolution wise. Obviously the channel comment is false and the sample rate doesn't tell the whole story. In practical use, SNES games have to cap the quality or variety of samples and sounds end up muffled and reverbed by the time the SNES spits them out. Genesis also has CD games with CD audio, realtime scaling/rotation, etc. SNES instead sold extra hardware on a cart by cart basis.




The SNES can handle what I said, it's just that games didn't do it with the visuals as I had explained to me by 2 different emulator authors.

Maybe a clever programmer could get 4 tile layers with full color to work, but the SNES isn't supposed to have a mode for that and the most common mode used for layering included a top layer of NES looking graphics.

[RJ]

Which did I hook up to the 42" LCD TV in the family room? SNES

Which did I give to Goodwill months ago & dont miss? Genesis

[BricatSegaFan]

Which did I hook up to the 42" LCD TV in the family room? SNES

Which did I give to Goodwill months ago & dont miss? Genesis

That's a little cold. But to put it in perspective, I have 4 genesis systems and 0 snes. Snes is on the bottom of my list of systems to collect or collect for.

Besides a snes on a modern tv looks like ass, hook that up to a CRT.

[Rob2600]

There is no such thing as "true" effects in the way you're thinking. Hardware support isn't the only way to do transparencies and the kind the SNES can do is limited, which is why it uses flickering most of the time. The Genesis does have hardware support for shadow/highlight effects, which are hardware supported transparencies.

The SNES is capable of additive and subtractive blending to achieve varying levels of transparency (or more accurately, translucency) and many SNES games make use of it. It's far more sophisticated and useful than the Genesis's "shadow and highlight" feature.

And I've never seen translucency/blending in SNES games cause flicker, like you claim. If it did, the forest in A Link to the Past would be unplayable, as would many levels in the Donkey Kong Country series, Super Castlevania IV, Batman Returns, etc.

I've never come across a Genesis game that features true translucency/blending like the clouds and green bubbles in Super Mario World's ghost house...only primitive, dithered transparency like the water in Sonic the Hedgehog. If you know of any Genesis games that do feature SNES-style blending, please post them. I'd love to see them in action.



a snes on a modern tv looks like ass, hook that up to a CRT.

Actually, I hooked my SNES up to my HDTV via composite cable and was surprised to see it looked perfect.

[Tanooki]

Old 2D systems on modern TVs the mileage varies. On my 5-6year old Panasonic 26" Viera LCD the SNES, NES, etc they look much like an emulator in that they're super sharp, no color bleed, it's just crisp and only over a RCA cable clumped all into a switcher box.

That same setup was used on a little over a year old Samsung LED tv about 20" larger than the old one...argh. Did you back in the day ever daisychain like 3+ RF boxes over one coax line? Similar effect, something between that and annoying forced bilinear filtering some emulators in Windows for you to use. Blurry/muddy mess, it's like a dying RF cable mixed in since it bleeds a bit, it's just awful.

Also the old one, I get no input lag and it's a 60hz tv while the new one is 120hz and it does lag enough to make timing precision stuff like a Super Mario game not very playable.

[dra600n]

Wow, so many people throwing around such random "facts". :P




You're taking one spec from SNES and comparing it to a different one for Genesis.

The SNES has 32k colors to choose from, the Genesis has 512 to choose from. The SNES can use up to 8 palettes of 15 colors for sprites and 8 for tiles or a cap of 240 colors onscreen. The Genesis can use 2 palettes for tiles and 2 for sprites which caps out at 60 colors on-screen. But onscreen color counts aren't comparable. A Genesis game with 40 - 50 colors will look worse than a SNES or TG-16 version with the same amount of colors.

The Genesis pulled off a version of one use of Mode 7 once, but it can't do everything in software that Mode 7 does in hardware.

The SNES cannot scale or rotate sprites at all in hardware and likely never does in realtime. The Genesis could do simple scaling and/or rotation in realtime, but there's no point so it's almost always prerendered in 16-bit console games.

Tech demos like that are neat, but mean nothing for games.



The genesis can use all palettes for either background tiles or sprites, there's not 2 dedicated for each.
I'm sure other games have done some mode-7 style effects besides Vector Man's, but even if there aren't (well, Pier Solar did), it's still possible. Some games could really benefit from it, while others would be better off without it (come on, Terranigma's underground is a horrible use of mode-7).

You're right, though. Displaying 960 colors on screen wouldn't necessarily be useful to in game purposes, but you can easily achieve over 200 colors and still have it be useful and feasible in game. The Genesis can't natively rotate or scale sprites. You can flip them horizontally and vertically, but not say, 90 degrees. You could do it through software, but not through native hardware. You can stretch and "rotate", to a degree, with using raster effects on the planes, but only so far before you're better off using pre rendered graphics, like you said.

I thought mode-7 allowed for hardware scaling and rotation, like when you defeat the Koopa boys (and girl) in SMW, when they expand and shrink. I was always under the impression that was done using mode 7, and on the fly.

[j_factor]

Red Zone is another Genesis game with rotation. The game rotates as you turn. Sprites move with the rotation of the screen, which you don't see with Mode 7 on SNES. Mode 7 games are usually completely flat.

[7th lutz]

Space Dungeon and recently released Tempest are not available on 7800. Pac Man never came out on the 7800.
It is true that Pac-Man didn't on the 7800 during the 7800's commercial release, but it on the 7800 as a homebrew game.
Pac-Man is on Pac-Man Collection for the 7800.

[Tanooki]

I thought mode-7 allowed for hardware scaling and rotation, like when you defeat the Koopa boys (and girl) in SMW, when they expand and shrink. I was always under the impression that was done using mode 7, and on the fly.

If I remember reading it right many years ago, they do just that. Mode7 allows that scaling and rotation on one of its BG layers. So to pull off what they did with the koopa kids was to have them not on the usual BG layer that Mario and enemies are on, but they're on an actual background layer instead. Notice when you battle them the area is in a frame, nothing in the background at all, and then it's usually a border or a floating platform over lava? They're using that other BG for them so they move them around as if they were a sprite on the bg, but then when you slap them around some and they take damage or eventually eat it at the end they'll shrink, expand, rotate and fly off screen.

[Black_Tiger]

The genesis can use all palettes for either background tiles or sprites, there's not 2 dedicated for each.

That is not true. You only have to look at the games. If Genesis games could display <64 colors however they like, they would look as good as or better than SNES games and there wouldn't be any of the gaudy color clashing, loss of shading or excessive dithering found in too many Genesis games.


http://superpcenginegrafx.net/misc/ffarc132.pnghttp://superpcenginegrafx.net/misc/ffarc35.pnghttp://superpcenginegrafx.net/misc/ffscd35.png


http://superpcenginegrafx.net/misc/sfiimd50b.pnghttp://superpcenginegrafx.net/misc/sfiipce81.pnghttp://superpcenginegrafx.net/misc/sfiisfc109.png
http://superpcenginegrafx.net/misc/sfiimd50b.pnghttp://superpcenginegrafx.net/misc/sfiipce50.pnghttp://superpcenginegrafx.net/misc/sfiisfc50.png






The SNES is capable of additive and subtractive blending to achieve varying levels of transparency (or more accurately, translucency) and many SNES games make use of it. It's far more sophisticated and useful than the Genesis's "shadow and highlight" feature.

That's true, but s&h is still a hardware translucency/transparency effect that the Genesis does have and it's used in games the same way that many SNES games like Chrono Trigger use hardware transparecy: to overlay a single color tint to sections.




And I've never seen translucency/blending in SNES games cause flicker, like you claim. If it did, the forest in A Link to the Past would be unplayable, as would many levels in the Donkey Kong Country series, Super Castlevania IV, Batman Returns, etc.

The hardware supported transparency effect that the SNES has is limited to a single tile layer and has other limits, such as the degrees of translucency. It's also limited to a blending of layers, even though it is often used for effects that should turn things into different color scales. Most SNES transparent sprite effects are done with flickering and it is very common. Sprites taking damage in many/most games use flicker effects. Fire up any SFII and watch Dhalsim's yoga flame. Megaman X Dr Light hologram. Super Metroid elevator. Final Fantasy II opening with wizards dying in the crystal room. SNES games do it all the time.




I've never come across a Genesis game that features true translucency/blending like the clouds and green bubbles in Super Mario World's ghost house...only primitive, dithered transparency like the water in Sonic the Hedgehog. If you know of any Genesis games that do feature SNES-style blending, please post them. I'd love to see them in action.

SNES-style blending isn't perfect or true transparency, it's only a specific kind of non-dithered/non-flickered transparent effect. Still, many Genesis and PC Engine games have transparency/translucent effects that SNES games used hardware support for, as well as other transparency/translucent effects that the SNES hardware transpsarency can't do. Here are some Genesis examples:


Ranger-X: red full screen tint fading in and out plus full screen darkening and lightening effects. Stage 2 light beam in the tunnels. Stage 3 darkening/lightening as you descend/ascend from the forest canopy. Stage 5 rotating transparent light beams. Other full screen lightening/darkening effects. I believe that light beams and full screen colored effects work at the same time, unlike SNES hardware transparency like the shadows in Chrono Trigger that disappear every time another transparency effect is used.


Castlevania Bloodlines: Stage 2 rising water. Stage 5-2 light beams.


Adventures of Batman & Robin: Mad Hatter boss fight floor.


Ristar: Hammerhead shark boss fight.


Animaniacs: Stage 2(?) water.


The Great Circus Mystery Starring Mickey and Minnie: Stage 5.

[LimitedEditionMuseum]

That is not true. You only have to look at the games. If Genesis games could display <64 colors however they like, they would look as good as or better than SNES games and there wouldn't be any of the gaudy color clashing, loss of shading or excessive dithering found in too many Genesis games.


http://superpcenginegrafx.net/misc/ffarc132.pnghttp://superpcenginegrafx.net/misc/ffarc35.pnghttp://superpcenginegrafx.net/misc/ffscd35.png


http://superpcenginegrafx.net/misc/sfiimd50b.pnghttp://superpcenginegrafx.net/misc/sfiipce81.pnghttp://superpcenginegrafx.net/misc/sfiisfc109.png
http://superpcenginegrafx.net/misc/sfiimd50b.pnghttp://superpcenginegrafx.net/misc/sfiipce50.pnghttp://superpcenginegrafx.net/misc/sfiisfc50.png







That's true, but s&h is still a hardware translucency/transparency effect that the Genesis does have and it's used in games the same way that many SNES games like Chrono Trigger use hardware transparecy: to overlay a single color tint to sections.





The hardware supported transparency effect that the SNES has is limited to a single tile layer and has other limits, such as the degrees of translucency. It's also limited to a blending of layers, even though it is often used for effects that should turn things into different color scales. Most SNES transparent sprite effects are done with flickering and it is very common. Sprites taking damage in many/most games use flicker effects. Fire up any SFII and watch Dhalsim's yoga flame. Megaman X Dr Light hologram. Super Metroid elevator. Final Fantasy II opening with wizards dying in the crystal room. SNES games do it all the time.





SNES-style blending isn't perfect or true transparency, it's only a specific kind of non-dithered/non-flickered transparent effect. Still, many Genesis and PC Engine games have transparency/translucent effects that SNES games used hardware support for, as well as other transparency/translucent effects that the SNES hardware transpsarency can't do. Here are some Genesis examples:


Ranger-X: red full screen tint fading in and out plus full screen darkening and lightening effects. Stage 2 light beam in the tunnels. Stage 3 darkening/lightening as you descend/ascend from the forest canopy. Stage 5 rotating transparent light beams. Other full screen lightening/darkening effects. I believe that light beams and full screen colored effects work at the same time, unlike SNES hardware transparency like the shadows in Chrono Trigger that disappear every time another transparency effect is used.


Castlevania Bloodlines: Stage 2 rising water. Stage 5-2 light beams.


Adventures of Batman & Robin: Mad Hatter boss fight floor.


Ristar: Hammerhead shark boss fight.


Animaniacs: Stage 2(?) water.


The Great Circus Mystery Starring Mickey and Minnie: Stage 5.
I never cuss but how in the FUCK do you guys know all this stuff!!!!!!!????? It's amazing.

[Casati]

Time to set the record straight, the SNES can't exactly handle it's 512 horizonal pixles resolutions, aka it's high resolution modes, most of the Super NES games are running at it's 256 horizontal pixles resolutions [low resolution modes] to keep the framerate high, thats why games that are on both systems, sprites tend to look "bigger" on the SNES, because the games have to run in low resolution compared to the Sega Genesis, which most of the Genesis' game library runs in it's high resolution mode [320 hotizontal pixles], hence the reason the modle 1's had the "High Definition Graphics" emblem across it's top.

Sega Genesis could display "SNES quality" colors via dithering techniques and highlight/shadowing tricks, also the Sega Genesis could display 2-3 times the sprites and independently scrolling 2D planes over the SNES and games on the Genesis typically ran with less slowdown, featured faster scrolling levels. Sega Genesis also featured more custom special effects like "tilted" sprites and backgrounds, scaling backgrounds, realtime scaling sprites and fully polygonal gameplay all in software coding without any special cart loaded processors. So yeah, the Sega Genesis could outclass the Super NES graphically.

As for sound, there are literally hundreds of Genesis games that show off exactly the full capabilities of it's FM synth music, even with very clear PCM sound samples that don't sound gargled at all. Unfortunately, Konami and Capcom never did really grasp the amazing Genesis sound chip capabilities for PCM sound, however games such as Robocop vs. Terminator have alot of sound samples and they are crystal clear.

I mean the sound system is truely one of the most misunderstood and under rated qualities of the Sega Genesis, the Genesis sound chips had amazing capabilities that do out class the SNES sound when programmed by a competent composer and when programmed for correctly it truely outshined the SNES sound chip on all levels.

Sound quality of course depends on what modle of the Genesis you get as well, the "High Defintion Graphics" modle 1 Sega Genesis' have the best sound. Non-High Defintiion Graphics modle 1 Sega Genesis' have bad sound, as do the Modle 2 and Modle 3 Genesis'. All of those "fake" Sega Genesis modles you can buy get the sound wrong too. Also sound on emulators is horrible as well, the best and most accurate sound when it comes to emulators is when using the emulator Kega Fusion and setting sound to SuperHQ. I mean it's not perfect but it's very close to actual hardware, all other emulators flat out get it wrong.

As for the Super Nintendo, know why so many SNES musical scores use reverb for it's music samples? Because it would sound like crap otherwise, it would be flat, lifeless and muffled sounding. SNES music was sampled [it's NOT wavetable as so many believe], it's sampled sound, simular to Amiga MOD tunes. If you listen to the music carefully on the SNES even underneath music that has reverb you can hear how badly the sound is muffled. Its sound chip IS inferior, it looks awesome on paper but in use, it's actually pretty horrible.

I'm not a "fanboy", I have enjoyed both the Sega Genesis and the Super NES since they debuted, and all throughout the 90's I have enjoyed them both and both have amazing exclusives and so I have respect for both system.

Sega Genesis was the better, more powerful console all around though.

Here's an argument for the Sega Genesis by Phaytal Error on YouTube.

[Tanooki]

Yeah it's an argument based upon opinion with some facts thrown around in there, shame few retail games back that up. Conveniently some of the competent big designers somehow just 'didn't get it' which I find really hard to believe with what they did pull off on both those systems and others including the arcade.


It's an old thread though and fun to read through to see both sides go at it.

[MidnightRider]

I remember not too long ago I was playing Japan/Euro exclusive Alien Soldier, and I kept thinking how the "Ready? Fight!" during boss battles was so clear it actually reminded me of Dreamcast fighting games.

Then there's the fact that the Street Fighter games have been hacked, with nothing but adjusted code, to sound much clearer than that congested sound Capcom got on the Genesis.

So yeah, there is a bit of truth to "the competent big designers" not getting it. Especially since before ~'92 it was Sega themselves porting Capcom games to the Genesis, and Konami still hadn't done anything for a console that had been out since '88, while they had something ready for the Super Famicom in '90. Pretty obvious these 2 companies had favoritism toward the big N.

[Tanooki]

THat's clear those two really had it in for Nintendo in their love affair. It rolled from original 8bit subjugation into whatever occurred that made them want to goo their pants over the Gameboy and the Super Famicom simultaneously. Maybe it was the overall capabilities of the SNES to emulate the color and audio depth of what they were wanting to do in arcades at the time, bribes, backroom deals whatever but Sega got the shit from them. Konami never really gave them a break over than the contra, turtles and castlevania single releases and they weren't exactly blown up to get attention like the SNES stuff. Capcom was marginally worse as they I think pretty much just shoveled over SF2 games, but kind of made up for it in the Saturn and DC era with a crap ton of decent arcade ports.

I'm in no way anti-Sega, I just don't have their hardware anymore currently due to lack of time/resources, but I really did like certain things the Genesis, Saturn and DC had going for it. I've been scaling back a lot for the last decade, more furiously this year than many though.

[Alianger]

From what I've seen, the MD displays 171 colors in Toy Story (stills; 105 in-game), 88 colors in Vectorman (stage 1), and 82 colors in Lost World: Jurassic Park (chopper stage).

Here's an album with screenshots from various games where they show the most colors at once (from what I've seen, some might show more in other places). Check photo details for color counts:
https://plus.google.com/photos/110507989581185950715/albums/6068338458871073537

This YT video shows the Toy Story and Vectorman examples in a dramatic presentation:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z9rjwECf2wQ&list=UUgx_hkPDgwDFq12zEkX1XMA

An interesting comment on the vid: ''Problem is, that the amount of colors per frame is irrelevant. You can change color palettes from one frame to another or even mid-frame and introduce a flickering effect, which the human eye will not notice because it is too slow to realize this, hence you actually see more. There is a theoretical thing: Every Horiz. INT you get enough cycles to change 3 CRAM words. This would mean that you can display 61 + 3 * 232 colors in total, if I'm correct (THEORETICALLY)''

There's probably some recent demos or homebrew games that surpass these examples as well.

[celerystalker]

When I was a kid, I definitely preferred the SNES over the Genesis. As an adult, though, I still prefer the SNES over the Genesis. As a matter of fact, as both a kid and adult, I've preferred the Turbografx to the Genesis as well. What it boils down to me with any system is games, and the SNES has many of my all time favorite games. Genesis does have better shooters than SNES to be sure, but the Turbografx/PC Engine destroys them both in that genre for me. SNES has my favorite RPGs and adventure games, and some awesome arcade ports from the time from Konami and Capcom, who seemed to like it more than the Genesis. The games I've liked on the Genesis have always been the weird Sega-produced stuff like Gain Ground, CrackDown, or ToeJam and Earl, but those shooters like MUSHA and Phelios sure are a good time. I'll take Super Mario, Metroid, Keith Courage, and Bonk over Sonic every day of the week, though.

[Tanooki]

That's kind of how I was. I invested into a Turbo Duo in the mid 90s and held onto that thing until my great collection dying selloff in the earlier 00s due to hardship. The Duo has far better games than the Genesis to me too when you weigh in the CD library as I had Ys Book, Dracula X, Macross 2036, RayXanber 3, and quite a few others and I had a nice selection of HuCards too like Bonk Bomberman and more. The genesis just looked and sounded poorer in most cases and most the games I tried I could not get into due to style and substance. There were Genesis games I really dug, some though that were my favorite were from third parties most people put on a list and PC conversions of Dune 2 and Star Control. Mind you I never was huge on first party sega stuff other than some of their arcade things. Sonic I've never loved, he always came off as an arrogant spiky haired douchebag who just ran through levels as fast as possible to get to the next not bothering to try and explore and discover much. It's not sonic's fault though entirely, I've always hated speed run type games. :)

[MidnightRider]

I'm with the Genesis on this one. For starters, adventure and RPG's aren't really my thing.

Say what you will about RPG's, but the Genesis still seems to have more sandbox games. Pirates! Gold, Starflight, even King's Bounty, a Heroes of Might and Magic style strategy game, is fairly sanbox-like in the way that it's played.

SNES has more beat 'em ups, but it is a Japanese genre, and Japanese development definitely favored anything but the Genesis. Still, none really match up to Streets of Rage 2. There's just something about that game on the whole, and beating down 5-6 enemies at once leaves a much more satisfying feeling than 3.

The speed of the Sonic series and Desert Demolition's post 1st stage Road Runner mode(instead of default Wile E. mode) is a lot more fun than they probably should be. Especially since you need to get to know the stages before you start blazing past them to better your own time.

For all the talk of the TG-16's shooters, at least the Genesis' came out to English speaking regions, and didn't need the disc add-on to get some of the consoles very best. Can't help but notice that particular aspect tends to get overlooked. Especially when people get on a European's case about it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wvlRCks1Kn8

Once you're past the shoot 'em ups, there's the run 'n guns. Hard Corps., Gunstar Heroes, Batman & Robin, I mentioned Japan/Euro exclusive Alien Soldier earlier, Ranger X, a lot of people seem to like Dinosaurs for Hire, Mercs, Gain Ground, Crack Down, etc.

Then you get the really unique stuff, like Bonanza Bros.(a game where you play as thieves back in '84/'91), Ecco, Road Rash/Skitchin', Mutant League, Devilish, Herzog Zwei(essentially the beginning of the RTS genre), Bubba 'n Stix(half platformer, half graphic adventure), Haunting starring Polterguy, The Ooze, Wiz 'n Liz, etc.

Hell, having brought up Bubba 'n Stix, you actually do get a couple graphic adventures out of Scooby Doo and Beavis and Butthead, the former even feeling like something form Lucas Arts.

I could just go on, and I've rarely brought up any of the well known stuff yet.

Even if you don't get it, there's a million reasons this console is just as loved around the world as the SNES. Even if the nerds that make up the internet's classic gaming community don't reflect that.

[MartyrOfChaos]

While I love both consoles, grew up playing both If I had to choose one it would be SNES just because it houses many of my favorite games! Such as X-Men Mutant Apocalypse, Super Metroid, Killer Instinct, Kirby Super Star, Super Mario World, Mega Man X, Donkey Kong Country, F-Zero, and the list just goes on & on! while on Sega Genesis there are alot less games that I hold as favorites!

[ProjectCamaro]

As a kid we had the Genesis so based on being bias I still say the Genesis. As much hate as it receives playing the Sega CD for the first time is a memory I'll never forget, those who weren't aroudn when that happened will never understand the impact CD's had on the gaming world. With as much as people trash talk FMV it was a huge leap forward when it came out, back then we had Sonic and Mario which were cartoon characters and then all of a sudden we had famous actors playing in our games. Talk about mind blowing.

If I'm honest with myself if I had both consoles back in the day I believe the Super Nintendo would have been my console of choice though. I don't really care for one console over the other, they are different and both offer great games but not having an SNES when they were new I do spend more time on it playing games I wanted as a kid but couldn't afford.

[GhostDog]

Genesis for me. While I was sometimes envious of what appeared to be better graphics on some SNES games, brighter colors and a handful of exclusives, Genesis games just ran smoother and faster and overall had more appealing games for my tastes. Genesis also holds the edge for nostalgic reasons too as I remember playing Strider, Shadow Dancer, Streets of Rage 2 and Sonic 2 and being blown away by the graphics and gameplay. Years later I was able to buy a bunch of great Genesis game for dirt cheap locally and discovered that the system was better than I originally thought. I like games where I can pick up and play without having to dedicate hours upon hours so the Genesis holds the advantage in that department as well.

[genesisguy]

My first console was a NES. I don't know what but I went with a Genesis in '92 so there's a lot of good childhood memories associated with that console. 1997-1998ish I was in high school and picked up a SNES so I had one back in the day but never really got into it.

Many years later when I was done with college and got back into retro gaming I started with all the SNES titles I missed out. I found out I'm not an RPG guy so most of the beloved SNES titles really don't do much for me. I got back to Genesis shortly after I got back into old games and I've stuck with it since. I collect for it and play it a lot today. As an adult I find more of the enjoyable pickup and play for maybe 20 mins to an hour titles on the Genesis and that really fits my schedule best for now.

[Tanooki]

You know what, good for you, and better yet since Sega lost a lot of gamers respect and is 'hardware' dead, the turn around on that is a positive for you because the Genesis doesn't suffer but for a fraction of the bloated prices the SNES gets pounded with. There's a good many solid games on that thing you really can totally rock out to and be happy with.

I know at some rate I'm so going to buy up a few games again for the Genesis, if not at least for use on the Retron 5 because I miss about a half dozen games and that usually is a gateway to more.

[HardcoreOtaku]

.....

[MidnightRider]

I may have my bias, but I'm glad I never grew into that much of a bitter pill over it.

[WCP]

I'm sure I'll get some hate for this comment, but oh well, sue me...



If you were to take the 25 best SNES games, and put them up against the 25 best Genesis games, it wouldn't be a fair fight at all. Go look at Top 100 Games of all time lists. You'll see plenty of Super Nintendo classics, in the top 10 of those lists. Zelda, Metroid, Mario World. You'll be lucky to see a single Genesis game make the top 10.

Not, that this proves anything, but I just think the SNES has a core group of games that murders just about anything on the Genesis. The only thing the Genesis really had over Super Nintendo was sports games. So, unless you're a hardcore sports game fan, I think anybody in their right mind would agree that the Super Nintendo has a much stronger top 25 games than the Genesis does.

Having said all of that... I really love the Genesis. I was a very early adopter of the Genesis, and I'll always have very special memories about that machine. I got my Genesis a few days after Pat Riley Basketball came out (around August of 1990). I was a huge Genesis supporter in the early days, and I was really rooting for them in their battle with Nintendo. However, I can't try to pretend that the Genesis was a better system, just because I prefer to root for the underdog. The Genesis does have a fantastic library of games, without question, but I just don't think it can carry the SNES's jockstrap if I'm really honest with myself.

[tom]

But that's it in the SNES Top 25, always the same games, Mario, Zelda, Metroid, you'd never see a Unirally (which to me is Nintendo's best game ever). There are really many excellent games on SNES, which wouldn't even appear in the Top 25, it's always Mario, Zelda, Mario Kart etc etc....
But that's always the way in USA, they are Nintendo brainwashed, even if the same games appeared on the previous console (and still continues today).

I think Genesis had more (different) variety.

[WCP]

But that's it in the SNES Top 25, always the same games, Mario, Zelda, Metroid, you'd never see a Unirally (which to me is Nintendo's best game ever). There are really many excellent games on SNES, which wouldn't even appear in the Top 25, it's always Mario, Zelda, Mario Kart etc etc....
But that's always the way in USA, they are Nintendo brainwashed, even if the same games appeared on the previous console (and still continues today).

I think Genesis had more (different) variety.


Genesis probably did have a better variety of games.

Doesn't mean the games were better though. Sure, there are all the common SNES games that everybody points to, and with good reason, but there are many more games that don't always get mentioned, that should be mentioned:


Contra 3 - Amazingly, I don't always see this game mentioned among the SNES classics

Castlevania 4 - Sometimes this game is included with Metroid and such, sometimes not

F-Zero - some people don't think F-Zero is all that great. I think it's a masterpiece.

Super Ghouls & Ghosts - this one definitely isn't mentioned as much as it probably should be

U.N. Squadron - Another sensational classic SNES game that doesn't get mentioned with the Mario Worlds...

Super Smash TV - excellent SNES cart that doesn't get it's fair share of props

TMNT: Turtles in Time - Genesis version is good, but I think SNES version is better

Starfox - Honestly, the tech of Nintendo was way beyond Genesis in regards to this game. Even the 32X games don't seem as good as Starfox

Axelay - Another shooter that I don't think gets anywhere the level of praise it should get

Pilotwings - Hasn't aged too well, but I think this game is still damn good

Actraiser - This game was magical when it first arrived.

Donkey Kong Country - Yes, I know this game is nowhere near as good as most people think, but it's still pretty damn solid.

NBA Live Series - This started with NBA Live '95 on the Super Nintendo. Genesis versions are very good, but I like the SNES versions better. So much more color and better sound.

Final Fight - I still think the original Final Fight on SNES is pretty amazing. Yeah, I know it's missing a two player option, etc, etc...

Yoshi's Island - This game is sometimes mentioned with the all-time classic SNES games, but sometimes it's left out

[Leo_A]

Starfox - Honestly, the tech of Nintendo was way beyond Genesis in regards to this game. Even the 32X games don't seem as good as Starfox

The Genesis could do some nice 3D without the need of any enhancement chip. Check out Domark's trio of racers, for example.

[MidnightRider]

The only thing the Genesis really had over Super Nintendo was sports games. So, unless you're a hardcore sports game fan, I think anybody in their right mind would agree that the Super Nintendo has a much stronger top 25 games than the Genesis does.

Shoot 'em ups. Much more of great quality.

You have your outlook, but it can never be anything more than subjective. That's the issue, is that you think this can be something objective, when it can't. You even passively insult anyone that would disagree with you with that last line.

What exactly would the "objective" 25 best be anyway?

You certainly can't convince me that praising RPG's at the expense of sports games was, or ever will be, a common thing, outside of the internet.

With what I like out of gaming, the Genesis takes a steaming shit on the SNES, but I don't think the SNES flat out "sucks elephant balls" because of it.

[HardcoreOtaku]

.....

[MidnightRider]

Yeah, and when taken out of context, games sound sexist to Anita Sarkeesian, and violent to Jack Thompson. Funny how the next chunk of text you omitted to quote was the part where I state I didn't think the SNES sucked.

[Raedon]

*grabs tg16 and amiga and runs from thread*

[HardcoreOtaku]

The SNES/ Super Famicom has a small but excellent selection of shoot 'em ups.
Some of these include:

Axelay (Konami masterpiece)
Area 88/ UN Squadron (Capcom's finest 2D shmup)
R-Type III: Third Lightning (best R-Type ever, simply amazing)
Super Aleste / Space Megaforce (brilliant Compile game, much better than the mediocre Musha Aleste)
Macross Scrambled Valkyrie (one of the finest shmups ever, tons of sprites on screen with no slowdown, trounces over the average PCE & Saturn Macross games)
Flying Hero
Sonic Wings / Aero Fighters
Gokujou Parodius, jikkyou Oshaberi Parodius and Parodius Da
Cotton 100%
Pop 'n Twinbee
Gradius III
BioMetal
Kidou Soukou Dion / Imperium
Super Swiv /Firepower 2000

[Leo_A]

Don't forget Defender and Stargate via William's Arcade Classics. Of course the Genesis has an equally good conversion, but they're fine shooters none the less and I prefer playing them here instead of on more modern compilations.

[MidnightRider]

Super Aleste / Space Megaforce (brilliant Compile game, much better than the mediocre Musha Aleste)

Yeah, because that's a proven fact, and not an opinion in any way :rolleyes:. That's why these things blow up like they do. You quoted something I said that, by only the context of that 3rd of the entire line, sounds bad, but at least the first 3rd of that line was stating it was in fact opinion.

Air Buster
Arrow Flash
Bio-Hazard Battle
Elemental Master
Fire Shark
Forgotten Worlds
Gaiares
Granada
Grind Stormer
Hellfire
Insector X
Lightening Force
M.U.S.H.A.: Metallic Uniframe Super Hybrid Armor
Phelios
Sagaia
Sol-Deace
Steel Empire
Sub-terrania
Thunder Force II
Thunder Force III
Trouble Shooter
Truxton
Vapor Trail
Wings of Wor
Whip Rush

No multi-platforms(though as far as I know that's just Raiden Trad), no Europe exclusives, no Japan exclusives, and nothing that could be misconstrued as another genre(Ranger X).

It's not like I'd be making a case for Genesis RPG's against the SNES. I don't understand why you can't accept that both consoles are better at an equal amount of things.

[Tanooki]

Aww no mention of SFC Spriggan Powered, it's great and there was also Twinbee (not the same as Pop'n Twinbee.)

Also the SNES could do fine in rendering 3D without the FX chip, it just wasn't really tasked for it is all. Star Trek Starfleet Academy was nothing but 3D the entire time when you were in space through the view screen on the bridge. You can get a few ships plus the phaser shots and torpedoes which are all polygonal, as were the random planets that would pop up in some stages. No they lacked detail if you're going to ask, it was just flat colored polygons, but that was I guess the limit without special chips but that game flies around quite smoothly.

[Leo_A]

I don't know how someone can love this era and not be enthralled by both of these. They have different advantages, but that's part of the charm of the era and they complement each over nicely.

The SuperNes only barely edges it out since I prefer Nintendo as a developer over Sega (At home, at least... Sega is hard to beat in the arcade) and the SuperNes is what I had as a teen (Didn't buy a Genesis until the Genesis 3 appeared from Majesco). There are so many fine games here that I'd miss out on if I just stuck with my Super Nintendo, such as this top notch port of Roadblasters that has kept me occupied lately.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3hFtt533unc

Minus a slightly different sounding engine note and the removal of the tiny bit of voice work in-between levels, it's virtually arcade perfect.


Also the SNES could do fine in rendering 3D without the FX chip, it just wasn't really tasked for it is all. Star Trek Starfleet Academy was nothing but 3D the entire time when you were in space through the view screen on the bridge. You can get a few ships plus the phaser shots and torpedoes which are all polygonal, as were the random planets that would pop up in some stages. No they lacked detail if you're going to ask, it was just flat colored polygons, but that was I guess the limit without special chips but that game flies around quite smoothly.

The 3D there is extremely basic and not at all a good example compared to stuff like this. I'm not even sure the space ships in there are actually composed of polygons, or just 2D sprites being scaled and rotated. And heck, look at that huge border and the tiny amount actually going on in the gameplay window, yet it still seems choppy.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Ojq3cq0STQ

It's especially impressive when you look at the game it was a conversion of on the Amiga.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BVKDvLM8pKw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RRnA-_UCxJU

They got remarkable close to it as shown in the former link, compared to the latter that was a dull, full 2D, sprite scaler on the SuperNes (Where as the more substantial trackside objects in the Sega version are obviously composed of polygons).

The Genesis was the place to go for 3D. I think the lineups kind of bear that out as well such as all the flight sims on the Genesis where as the Super Nintendo is devoid of any (Unless one counts something like Pilotwings or Wings 2 as flight sims... I'm thinking more along the lines of Mig-29 on the MegaDrive).

[Tanooki]

SNES was just as much if not more to go for 3D, it just needed the FX to do it more smoothly as Hard Drivin and Star Trek were as good as it got on bare hardware, but throw the FX in there and then it was a different thing for many of the games, yet still some like Stunt Race dragged. SNES did get some very very admirable flight simulator(space combat) copies of Wing Commander and the Special Operations levels on two carts, and yeah there is Pilotwings and Wings which counts and it's a really nice title, but it's not 3D persay as much as scaled sprites and mode 7 (like the others.) The only really 3D flight it had was both Starfox games and Vortex. Sega has less everything other than the faster main cpu so they could pull off quicker computations to do nicer/faster lightly detailed polygons without spare parts, but to even get at the level of what the FX chips could do they had to make that $100 cart of Virtua Racing which has that SVP chip (and that is my favorite release of the game too.) Each system has its own perks, SNES at a basic ear and eye candy level tended to win that war, but when basing it upon the actual games and not the candy or special chips tossed at it then it came really down to preference of the unique titles.

[Leo_A]

SNES was just as much if not more to go for 3D, it just needed the FX to do it more smoothly as Hard Drivin and Star Trek were as good as it got on bare hardware, but throw the FX in there and then it was a different thing for many of the games, yet still some like Stunt Race dragged.

A: The stock Genesis hardware is a much more capable 3D console. Lots of games prove that out where as Mode 7 effects or straight sprite scaling, fake 3D, were the order of the day on the SuperNes if you wanted something resembling a playable game with the stock hardware.

B: North American got what, a half dozen Super FX games? The best one used it just to enhance its rotational capabilities and such, not for 3D. The others are junk, or often considered aged tech demos for the best of the lot (Although I still enjoy Stunt Race FX and Star Fox). It has about as much validity here as Virtua Racing does on the Genesis or the 32X add-on and its arcade perfect conversions of Afterburner II and Space Harrier and such.


SNES did get some very very admirable flight simulator(space combat) copies of Wing Commander and the Special Operations levels on two carts

It's not real 3D, they're scaling and rotating sprites for the space ships. Fine conversions that I've enjoyed and played to completion (The original on the real deal, and the expansion via EA Replay on my PSP), but I'm not criticizing its sprite scaling capabilities. I think games like Top Gear demonstrate that the SuperNes had the edge in this area (Although the Genesis is no slouch, either)


and yeah there is Pilotwings and Wings which counts

They're really not flight sims. Pilotwings is pure arcade action, despite gamers that never played a sim being fond of considering Pilotwings as a sim. And Wings 2 really doesn't have any sim elements of note despite the setting.

[Leo_A]

Without knowing the programming background, development schedule, and so on that could play factors, here's an example of what I'm talking about.

Race Drivin' for the Super Nintendo, unplayable by most any definition with what appears to be a single digit frame rate and poor sense of speed.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XZRZMqLG354

Race Drivin' for the Sega Genesis, which while not for most, performs with speed and smoothness where at least many could envision someone actually playing it. Probably pushing about 20 FPS, which while teetering precariously on the edge of playability, is significantly better than the competitor.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BO6o-xmR3v8

Neither probably should've been attempted with the stock hardware, but kids that got the Genesis port on Christmas day at least found something that provided a bit of fun.

[Tanooki]

Leo, that's your opinion on the Genesis, it just has a faster chip however you want to use it then there's the result. It's no mystery the main SNES cpu was notably slower. I think I already said that anyways that the SNES needed the FX to outdo it and it needed the SVP just to pull off Virtua Racing.

I never said WC1 or Pilotwings was 3D. I just said they were admirable flight simulators. I know what they're doing for those effects and all in all they were impressive enough in the day. Like you said neither were a slouch but SNES had the edge with this type of stuff with scaling, sprites and mode7 type things.

I know they're arcade style but they're still flight simulation, just not 'accurate' as none of it is any MS flight simulator or Falcon 3.0 by any means.

Race Drivin I just threw out there as an example of it doing some kind of 3D without the FX. I know it's terribly slow. I've played both and I think both are too slow for their own good, though the Sega one just barely skates by much like Stunt Race FX does on SNES. Neither should have been released and Stunt Race should have been optimized or shelved for the FX2 how it handles. I've seen (and played) that one overclocked to the FX2 rate and damn it's fun at that pace.

[Leo_A]

Leo, that's your opinion on the Genesis

True, but one where the evidence I think is clearly supportive of my side.


I think I already said that anyways that the SNES needed the FX to outdo it and it needed the SVP just to pull off Virtua Racing.

I think it was clear that I was talking about their stock capabilities. When it comes to polygons, only one of the two is really able to pull off a good game or at least one that's playable.

And I think it's quite fair that Virtua Racing Deluxe cost as much as it did. It seems to be able to push out more polygons and manipulate them much faster than the Super FX chip could. Without that crucial sense of speed, it would've been just a wasted effort. Instead, it did justice to a big 3D arcade hit at the time on an economical late 1980's game console.


I never said WC1 or Pilotwings was 3D. I just said they were admirable flight simulators. I know what they're doing for those effects and all in all they were impressive enough in the day.

I was talking about their true 3D games.

Regardless that it's 2D trickery being used to achieve something that seems 3D, there's nothing sim there. Pilotwings is pure arcade action. But I agree that it was an excellent effort. Heck, I just paid $8 for it just to have it on my Wii U.

For what many unfortunately write off as a mere tech demo, I think there's a fine game there that plays well and looks nice. It's smart development that played to the system's strengths rather than trying to pull something off that it just couldn't do, like Race Drivin' on a stock Super Nintendo.

I'm similarly fond of Pilotwings 64, another game that's sadly written off as a tech demo not worth bothering with now that it doesn't wow people with its graphical prowess.

If you also enjoy these arcade "flight sims" with varied challenges, check out Sky Odyssey sometime for the PS2.

[MidnightRider]

SNES had the edge with this type of stuff with scaling, sprites and mode7 type things.

On stock hardware, the Genesis had the edge with sprites. On paper the SNES' spec sheets say it handles more, but in practice you often see much more on a Genesis screen. Again that one most likely came down to the processors. Sprite scaling and rotation happened on the Genesis, the one time it did on the SNES, in Mario Kart, was due to the DSP chip. That said, the SNES had those effects built into it, for backgrounds(bosses that had those effects were unused background layers). The spriting capabilities of the Genesis also led to better animations, with a couple games even having had animation studio's involved in the development process. It's all software for the Genesis, but it's well known processor was so much easier to program for, that a great deal of developers still took the time to program it all in.

[celerystalker]

Am I wrong to love how similar this thread is getting to the lunchroom conversations from the era?

I think a lot of adults have found a nice home on the Genesis because of its acessible arcade and Amiga ports. I'll love my SNES all the same, even if its arcade ports don't get the same recognition as Shinobi. Games like Magic Sword, King of Dragons, and Cybernator are every bit the equal, though, but 16 bit shooter fans are screwing themselves by not having Turbografx or PC Engine Duo. Yep, Musha, Axelay, and ThunderForce are great. Play the Star Soldiers, Blazing Lazers, Gate of Thunder, Spriggan, Gradius II, Salamander, R-Type Complete, Air Zonk, L Dis, Sapphire, etc. and then try to tell me how good Sol Deace and Sub Terrania really are.

They all suck truck nuts at 3D out of the box. All of them. If that is why you play a 16 bit console, you might be confused.

[Leo_A]

I'll leave tech specs to others to debate, but from experience, I don't picture the Genesis being able to rival something like this.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E9QJZSBpvg0

If the Genesis hardware indeed is the superior of the two where sprite scaling is concerned, I never saw evidence of that in the final product. Especially in the racing game genre where sprite scaling was so commonplace during the 16 bit era.

Something like the Super Monaco games on the Genesis or Domark's fine racers that I've brought up in this thread, don't push nearly so many 2D sprites as Top Gear does for the competitors and the trackside objects.

But toss in some polygons into the mix, like the elevated freeways and on-ramps in Outrun 2019, and it's Genesis all the way.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ppPPDFfw8yo

[Niku-Sama]

Without knowing the programming background, development schedule, and so on that could play factors, here's an example of what I'm talking about.

Race Drivin' for the Super Nintendo, unplayable by most any definition with what appears to be a single digit frame rate and poor sense of speed.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XZRZMqLG354

Race Drivin' for the Sega Genesis, which while not for most, performs with speed and smoothness where at least many could envision someone actually playing it. Probably pushing about 20 FPS, which while teetering precariously on the edge of playability, is significantly better than the competitor.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BO6o-xmR3v8

Neither probably should've been attempted with the stock hardware, but kids that got the Genesis port on Christmas day at least found something that provided a bit of fun.

I tried playing that on snes the other day. It definitely needs an over clock. Wonder if there's a way to do that

[Leo_A]

Via emulation such as the Retron 5, it is.

And not a bad idea, I bet speeding it up would do wonders for it.

[WCP]

The Genesis does have a much better selection of shmups. A much bigger selection, and probably stronger overall titles as well. I kinda forgot about all the great shooters that hit the Genesis.

Ok, so the Genesis has sports games and shooters locked up. I'll definitely give it those two categories without argument.

[Alianger]

Couple of threads that might be of interest here;

Polygon/Ray-casting based graphics on MD:
http://www.sega-16.com/forum/showthread.php?28525-Definitive-list-of-Ray-Casting-and-Polygon-based-graphics-on-the-Mega-Drive-Genesis

Scaling and rotation on MD:
http://www.sega-16.com/forum/showthread.php?27852-Which-games-have-scaling-and-rotation

[MidnightRider]

I'll leave tech specs to others to debate, but from experience, I don't picture the Genesis being able to rival something like this.

I'll admit racers aren't something I've paid attention to, but whereas Koranot from Super Castlevania IV is a background object, the growing/shrinking(when taking a hit) final form of Dracula on the Genesis, with a background with effects, was a sprite. That kind of scaling you never saw in SNES sprites during action games. There's a lot more examples, but that's the only one fresh on my mind, plus being games from the same series made that comparison easier. Alianger's 2nd link shows off some of the others.


but 16 bit shooter fans are screwing themselves by not having Turbografx or PC Engine Duo. Yep, Musha, Axelay, and ThunderForce are great. Play the Star Soldiers, Blazing Lazers, Gate of Thunder, Spriggan, Gradius II, Salamander, R-Type Complete, Air Zonk, L Dis, Sapphire, etc. and then try to tell me how good Sol Deace and Sub Terrania really are.

Not exactly relevant to the conversation at hand, but again how much of that is Japan exclusive, from the disc add-on(for the record it's not like the Sega CD doesn't add anything to the genre either), or both? The list I made was specific to the console without add-ons, or from non-NA regions, about half of which of which still made it to Europe.

[Tanooki]

Good point on the retron5, it does do turbo with a button pushed down though I think it's on the roster if it wasn't added since i lost mine to have an on/off switch in the menus. Beyond that, I doubt the game could get overclocked on the stock hardware cartridge, yet an oc mod of the total system would probably do something to it. Drakon did some OC work on FX chip games bringing them up to some very smooth and fast/fluid motion in particular with both Starfox games, Stunt Race and DOOM and they ran amazing, with proof of concept videos up on youtube if they're still there.

The Genesis had the SNES with the main CPU, it also by preference of the buyer had them in total quality if you were a space shooter junky as they got a heap of them both in quantity and quality. SNES had a lot too but nothing on the level of Sega, yet both got spanked by NEC with the PC ENgine/CD setup. Yet much of that also didn't come to the US and unless you got a mod cart slot or bought a Duo and just imported JP discs you were out of luck.

[genesisguy]

Genesis probably did have a better variety of games.

Doesn't mean the games were better though. Sure, there are all the common SNES games that everybody points to, and with good reason, but there are many more games that don't always get mentioned, that should be mentioned:


Contra 3 - Amazingly, I don't always see this game mentioned among the SNES classics

Castlevania 4 - Sometimes this game is included with Metroid and such, sometimes not

F-Zero - some people don't think F-Zero is all that great. I think it's a masterpiece.

Super Ghouls & Ghosts - this one definitely isn't mentioned as much as it probably should be

U.N. Squadron - Another sensational classic SNES game that doesn't get mentioned with the Mario Worlds...

Super Smash TV - excellent SNES cart that doesn't get it's fair share of props

TMNT: Turtles in Time - Genesis version is good, but I think SNES version is better

Starfox - Honestly, the tech of Nintendo was way beyond Genesis in regards to this game. Even the 32X games don't seem as good as Starfox

Axelay - Another shooter that I don't think gets anywhere the level of praise it should get

Pilotwings - Hasn't aged too well, but I think this game is still damn good

Actraiser - This game was magical when it first arrived.

Donkey Kong Country - Yes, I know this game is nowhere near as good as most people think, but it's still pretty damn solid.

NBA Live Series - This started with NBA Live '95 on the Super Nintendo. Genesis versions are very good, but I like the SNES versions better. So much more color and better sound.

Final Fight - I still think the original Final Fight on SNES is pretty amazing. Yeah, I know it's missing a two player option, etc, etc...

Yoshi's Island - This game is sometimes mentioned with the all-time classic SNES games, but sometimes it's left out

I understand you're just mentioning great games on the SNES. A lot of those titles you mentioned have what I'd think better counterparts on the Genesis. But again I don't think you we're looking for that sort of argument, and that would totally bring this back to the 6th grade lunch room. :-D

But I have to bring up one thing...

If you're going to mention the NBA Live series and hand it to the SNES you have to mention the EA NHL series and hand that one to the Genesis. Take any year and compare Genesis to SNES. The SNES version will always feel sluggish and the frame rate on the SNES is terrible. It's easy to tell that some of the frames of animation are cut from the SNES.

[mario-fan]

The age-old question. I dunno, for me this is a tough one - I had a Super NES as a kid but my best friend down the street had a Genny - so I played tons of Genesis games (but mostly Sonic) over his house. So based on gaming times 'way back when,' I'd have to say tie, since I had so much fun with each. But these days I have to give the nod to the SNES - I just think it has a much deeper catalog, and there are so many games for it that I love. Fire Emblem 4/5, Super Aleste, Mario All-Stars, all the old classic Square games - Secret of Mana, Final Fantasy IV/VI, Super Metroid, Mario Kart, on and on and on. At this point Genesis is mostly nostalgia factor for me. Probably the one Genesis gem that I remember: I got my buddy a copy of 'Mazin Saga' from the bargain bin for his birthday one year... Turned out to be this classic game neither of us could stop playing, great combination of beat-'em-up and big Street Fighter style boss battles at the end of each stage. Awesome.

[Tanooki]

Genesis that's a given, EA halfassed every single game they put on the SNES. I think they did it only out of necessity to make some cash, they didn't care otherwise as they had the most sloppiest halfassed ports I think of any notable developer which was sad. NHL94 still among many 20 years later is the king of the non-3D(if not overall) hockey games they made and the SNES one was just sad, worse than the PC version too. I've had all 3 releases and it's just shameless how EA did Nintendo across the board from sports, to their 'Strike' series and others. EA has always had that game they played to screw people in each generation, you just have to look and see how they decided to screw with such as their public baby behavior with the Dreamcast and sandbagging the Saturn though that one was Sega's fault.

[WCP]

But I have to bring up one thing...

If you're going to mention the NBA Live series and hand it to the SNES you have to mention the EA NHL series and hand that one to the Genesis. Take any year and compare Genesis to SNES. The SNES version will always feel sluggish and the frame rate on the SNES is terrible. It's easy to tell that some of the frames of animation are cut from the SNES.

I freely admit that the Genesis is definitely the better system if you're a sports game nut, or a shmup nut. No question about it. NHL '94 was one of the greatest sports games ever made, and the Genesis versions of the NHL series are much, much better. Madden '93 on Genesis is one of the best football games ever made, and the SNES doesn't really have one decent football game. Genesis was the sports gamers system of choice, no question. The NBA Live games on Genesis are very good too, I just think the color and sound of the SNES versions push them over the top.


As for shmups, the SNES does have Axelay and U.N. Squadron and Space Megaforce and a few others, but for the most part, the Genesis outnumbered the shmups, and also had better standout shmups.



But, I still think the SNES kills the Genesis overall, because those are only 2 categories out of many, many available genres of games.

[genesisguy]

I freely admit that the Genesis is definitely the better system if you're a sports game nut, or a shmup nut. No question about it. NHL '94 was one of the greatest sports games ever made, and the Genesis versions of the NHL series are much, much better. Madden '93 on Genesis is one of the best football games ever made, and the SNES doesn't really have one decent football game. Genesis was the sports gamers system of choice, no question. The NBA Live games on Genesis are very good too, I just think the color and sound of the SNES versions push them over the top.


As for shmups, the SNES does have Axelay and U.N. Squadron and Space Megaforce and a few others, but for the most part, the Genesis outnumbered the shmups, and also had better standout shmups.



But, I still think the SNES kills the Genesis overall, because those are only 2 categories out of many, many available genres of games.

Well it all comes down to opinion. But aside from RPGs which I will never play the Genesis beats the SNES on all categories.
Like I say this is just personal opinions but I own a SNES Everdrive any I have more fun with my physical collection of Genesis carts than I do with the entire SNES library at my fingertips on the flash cart.

[WCP]

I have more fun with my physical collection of Genesis carts than I do with the entire SNES library at my fingertips on the flash cart.

It's always more fun to plug in the physical, real cart.


I find myself really taking games for granted via flash carts. It's like if your dad owned Blockbuster video, and each nite you could pick from 1,000 different movies to watch. You start to take all of them for granted.


but yeah, this argument is all about varying opinions. There is no right or wrong answer. The good news is that at least you are passionate about one side or the other if not both.

[genesisguy]

It's always more fun to plug in the physical, real cart.


I find myself really taking games for granted via flash carts. It's like if your dad owned Blockbuster video, and each nite you could pick from 1,000 different movies to watch. You start to take all of them for granted.


but yeah, this argument is all about varying opinions. There is no right or wrong answer. The good news is that at least you are passionate about one side or the other if not both.

Right! I sold all but a few of my SNES games this summer. So I DID have them. But I always go Genesis when I have 30 mins to play.
That all said, I still love the SNES and think those games are classic masterpieces.

[Leo_A]

Genesis that's a given, EA halfassed every single game they put on the SNES.

While I'm not a sports fan and I'm not aware of much of EA's earlier work, I've certainly played some fine EA games on the Super Nintendo. And at least three also were on the Genesis, yet were as good or better on the Super Nintendo.

I'm talking about the Strike series. I think Desert Strike compares well with the Genesis original, and I prefer the SuperNes versions for the two sequels.

[kupomogli]

Both are great systems, but the SNES has a better library of games.

[Tanooki]

Well if you feel Leo they're nicer on there that's good for you and that's great. I guess it comes down to what you expect I suppose. The games EA made for the SNES were all straight ports of the Genesis stuff, so maybe I'm a light bit hard on the games, but when they don't bother to improve the game over the Genesis despite the ability to do more with the colors/visuals and the audio, it just reeked of a cheap dirty port to me which didn't amuse me. Strike games were the best they did offer though, that's fair to say, because when you get into the sports stuff, it was shovelware compared.

Overall game wise, away from EA stuff I think one has to have a unique taste in games, certain genres really or they'd be fairly delusional throwback fanboy of the period to choose it over the SNES as it had the variety and better presentation value going on but that's also just opinion really despite the fact it came out 2 years later and had the time to put up a better product. I also agree with the argument, flash carts dumb the value of the game down to nothing more than a distraction with little reason to meddle with as you have no investment in it other than a download. I learned that going through a few of them and playing almost nothing on the things.

[Leo_A]

You've never compared the Strike series much, if you think the SuperNes versions are identical.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fdJ8XtuJBuU


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jyO7FqqhTBc

Having played both through to completion several times over the years (Also including most other versions of Jungle Strike and the other games in the franchise), the SuperNes version is definitely noticeably enhanced. Even more so with Urban Strike (I wasn't able to find a good video of the SuperNes version).

And Desert Strike is at least as good as the Genesis original, although it doesn't really push the system any. But they're fine, well programmed games and a sad reminder of how good Electronic Arts once was. That the SuperNes versions aren't radically different isn't an indictment of them since they weren't meant to be, but they also didn't lazily just ignore the capabilities of the system or do sloppy conversions, either.

[celerystalker]

I'll admit racers aren't something I've paid attention to, but whereas Koranot from Super Castlevania IV is a background object, the growing/shrinking(when taking a hit) final form of Dracula on the Genesis, with a background with effects, was a sprite. That kind of scaling you never saw in SNES sprites during action games. There's a lot more examples, but that's the only one fresh on my mind, plus being games from the same series made that comparison easier. Alianger's 2nd link shows off some of the others.



Not exactly relevant to the conversation at hand, but again how much of that is Japan exclusive, from the disc add-on(for the record it's not like the Sega CD doesn't add anything to the genre either), or both? The list I made was specific to the console without add-ons, or from non-NA regions, about half of which of which still made it to Europe.

The reason I bring up Turbografx is not to attempt to derail anything, but rather because it's always been considered irrelevant in the 16 bit comparisons. I just want to throw out some of the other options to try from my favorite era of gaming to people who may forget about it when getting lost in a console war that, while awesome, was only that way in North America. In Japan, the Mega Drive was a distant third behind the SNES and PC Engine, and the Engine had a really great library that's worth exploring, especially to shooter fans. However, restricting that to NA Turbografx shooters on HuCards, Blazing Lazers, Super Star Soldier, Air Zonk, Aero Blasters, Sinistron, Psychosis, Magical Chase (that's totally not worth what it costs now, though), Dragon Spirit, and SideArms off the top of my head were all good-to-awesome shooters that run faster with less flicker and slow-down than most of what either SNES or Genesis can offer. It's not that they suck; Turbo just deserves a little love in the 16 bit conversation, and if you like shmups, like I said before, you're only causing yourself to miss out if you don't play Turbo games. There's a ton of fun to be had there, and not all of it is ridiculously priced.

Seriously, though, why not play Ninja Spirit, Samurai Ghost, the Bonk games, Bloody Wolf, Cadash, Dungeon Explorer, or Neutopia I and II when they're there in English to be played on stock hardware with no CD attachment? I still like SNES better than either, but by now no one should be so entrenched as to ignore the competitors and miss out on the great games on all of them.

[MidnightRider]

I had a Turbo, so I'm not exactly against it, it's just that I'm looking at a thread that it's not really a part of. An old one btw, that started, and died, in 2012 before someone resurrected it.