Quick question about burned CD games..

[Schiggidyd]

Hey guys, I just have a few quick questions about Burned CD games.
I just fixed my Sega CDX with a laser replacement yesterday, and I'm ready to play! But I have almost no games for it! Although I usually refuse to use burned games, I just don't have the funds to buy more of these unless I pick them up dirt cheap.

Is it true that burned CD games can damage the laser?
Are there certain brands which are safer to use?
Higher quality?

Thank you for your advice!

[Edmond Dantes]

I've heard that, basically, as long as your media is Taiyo Yuden, you're safe.

That being said I've never seen a consensus on whether or not burns will kill your laser faster, so if that's a concern you might want to play it safe and only play originals.

[Schiggidyd]

Thanks!
Getting a definitive answer is difficult.. we need a laser professional.

[o.pwuaioc]

I don't know the extent it has been discussed here, but here was a decent discussion with plenty of information from another forum: http://www.racketboy.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=18357

[Jack_Burton_BYOAC]

From my experiences it comes down to a few factors:

- The quality of the CD-R media

- The quality of your burner

- The quality of the disc image

- The quality of your burn

If you use junk CD-R with very low reflectivity it's possible that your system will have a hard time reading the games at all. In some cases this can result in the laser having to use increased voltage to read the disc, and reduces its lifespan. Like many others, I recommend Taiyo Yuden. I've had good success with Mitsui as well. Try to use silver bottom's when possible. Gold, Black, or other colored bottoms are a bit more difficult to read for older systems.

The quality of your burner can also make a difference. Many modern burners are not really that great at burning CD's. They're more focused on DVD-R nowadays. Look for brands that others have had success with, or go for an older model. http://club.myce.com/ is a great source of information.

The disc image can also make a tremendous difference. Stay away from older rips of games. These were made hastily in the old days when it was a miracle just to get the games to play. Many older rips use odd formats that are not properly dummied, use incorrect file structures, or have missing music. Improper dummying and file structure can cause unnecessarily long load times and wear on the laser track of your system. The Dreamcast scene is very good about putting up the best quality rips possible, but for the PS1 sadly it is very difficult to find proper rips of some games. If you want to go the extra mile you might learn how to dummy your own ps1/mega cd/pce-CD games.

Finally, the settings you use when burning the disc can make a big difference.

YOU DON'T HAVE TO BURN AT 1X.

4x, 8x, and 16x will work fine most of the time. 1x is a carryover from the early days when CD burners were not nearly as advanced as they are now, and most discs were designed to operate the best from a 1x burn. This is not the case anymore. Most CD-R media is designed for a much higher speed, and will perform best when burned at these speeds. My Taiyo Yuden's load the smoothest and most reliably when burned at 16x in my Plextor Plexwriter. It may be different for you.

So no, when done properly CD-R's will not harm your console. In fact, it is probably quite a bit easier on the system to play a brand new CD-R than a scratched up CD-ROM.

[ifkz]

* Start rant *

Sigh, this thread makes me sad. You do realize you have the Cadillac of 16-bit Sega systems there, don't you? And to take the analogy further, you want to now go off-roading in it? Really?

Talk about unintended consequences...I no longer feel the need to share tech info to get more of these systems back in circulation if this is what happens. If you want to throw burned CD-Rs in there, you are better off selling it complete for $180 and using the funds to buy a regular model 2 flip top Sega CD and Genesis.

I thought this site was about saving & preserving games and systems, not ripping them off.

Time to go play my repaired CDX using a real copy of Silpheed to wash the taste of this experience away.

* End rant *

[Tupin]

* Start rant *

Sigh, this thread makes me sad. You do realize you have the Cadillac of 16-bit Sega systems there, don't you? And to take the analogy further, you want to now go off-roading in it? Really?

Talk about unintended consequences...I no longer feel the need to share tech info to get more of these systems back in circulation if this is what happens. If you want to throw burned CD-Rs in there, you are better off selling it complete for $180 and using the funds to buy a regular model 2 flip top Sega CD and Genesis.

I thought this site was about saving & preserving games and systems, not ripping them off.

Time to go play my repaired CDX using a real copy of Silpheed to wash the taste of this experience away.

* End rant *
Sometimes the best way to preserve a game is to rip a copy of it and play the copy so that the actual disc isn't subject to wear and tear.

[Oldskool]

I've bought more CD's and carts due to playing roms, emulators, and burned cd's more than I could ever imagine otherwise. I think it really helps the retro collecting industry.

As far as the CDX goes. If you replaced the laser and you don't have any games to try on it how do you know it's working?

You may have to make adjustments to the console using a real disc first.

Just a note, I have played burned CD's in many consoles for many years and have not had it cause any problems. Like mentioned, if the laser, the cd image, the quality of the cd and burner are good there shouldn't be any problems. Have you ever heard of burned music cd's destroying a cd player?

[Jack_Burton_BYOAC]

* Start rant *

Sigh, this thread makes me sad. You do realize you have the Cadillac of 16-bit Sega systems there, don't you? And to take the analogy further, you want to now go off-roading in it? Really?

Talk about unintended consequences...I no longer feel the need to share tech info to get more of these systems back in circulation if this is what happens. If you want to throw burned CD-Rs in there, you are better off selling it complete for $180 and using the funds to buy a regular model 2 flip top Sega CD and Genesis.

I thought this site was about saving & preserving games and systems, not ripping them off.

Time to go play my repaired CDX using a real copy of Silpheed to wash the taste of this experience away.

* End rant *

The OP has stated that he has replaced the laser assembly with a new one. It's quite likely this replacement is a Chinese clone that was made in the last couple of years. Even if he wears it out, what exactly has been lost?

Further still, in the near future many commercially pressed CD-ROMs will begin to deteriorate due to bit-rot, mis-handling, sun damage, thrown away, lost, etc. In this case, all that will be left will be CD-R's. Would you prefer to have the discussion about them now, or later?

Additionally, this site has a variety of threads which address the subject of reproduction games, usually in the form of cartridges. These are wildly perceived to be "saving and preserving" these precious rare games, or allowing people to play things such as hacks, unreleased games, or demos. How is it any different for CD games?

[wiggyx]

Sometimes the best way to preserve a game is to rip a copy of it and play the copy so that the actual disc isn't subject to wear and tear.

Or just handle your media carefully. I never understand why people insist that CDs/DVDs wear on their own.

Don't drop on floor, don't touch the surface, don't wipe disc with Brillo pad, don't use as a coaster, etc. my copy of Wipeout looks brand new despite having been played like a zillion times. The case is sorta rough, but that's easily taken care of.

[Jack_Burton_BYOAC]

Or just handle your media carefully. I never understand why people insist that CDs/DVDs wear on their own.

Don't drop on floor, don't touch the surface, don't wipe disc with Brillo pad, don't use as a coaster, etc. my copy of Wipeout looks brand new despite having been played like a zillion times. The case is sorta rough, but that's easily taken care of.

I'll agree with this, with the exception for some systems which have a tray or slot loading mechanism. The early ps2's especially seem hard on discs. However, anything which uses a lid should retain pristine discs as long as you are careful.

The real issue with disc scratching comes from buying used copies. What if you find a copy of Panzer Dragoon Saga at a Good Will, but one or more of the discs are unreadable? Should you be forced to find another copy in better condition, and simply place the scratched copy on the shelf? I think that's unreasonable.

[Emperor Megas]

I'll agree with this, with the exception for some systems which have a tray or slot loading mechanism. The early ps2's especially seem hard on discs. However, anything which uses a lid should retain pristine discs as long as you are careful.

The real issue with disc scratching comes from buying used copies. What if you find a copy of Panzer Dragoon Saga at a Good Will, but one or more of the discs are unreadable? Should you be forced to find another copy in better condition, and simply place the scratched copy on the shelf? I think that's unreasonable.Of course it's unreasonable. They're fucking toys for crying out loud. Sometimes hardcore nerds forget that. They get so wrapped up in elitist puritanical bullshit that forget that sometimes people just want to actually play the games.

[kedawa]

It's easy to preach about proper care if all you have are games you bought new.
You have to deal with a lot of wear and tear buying used.

[wiggyx]

You have the option of not buying beat used games. I know I sure don't.

[Jack_Burton_BYOAC]

You have the option of not buying beat used games. I know I sure don't.

So, what should be done with them then? Tossed in the recycle bin? ...

In theory, buying a scratched or unreadable copy can be a good deal if you have moral reservations about playing a game without owning a legit copy of it, but are not in the habit of buying $50+ games. It doesn't really help you in any legal sense, but it might make you feel warm and fuzzy.

[wiggyx]

So, what should be done with them then? Tossed in the recycle bin? ...

In theory, buying a scratched or unreadable copy can be a good deal if you have moral reservations about playing a game without owning a legit copy of it, but are not in the habit of buying $50+ games. It doesn't really help you in any legal sense, but it might make you feel warm and fuzzy.

Yup. I'd keep the case if it's in good shape and toss the game in the trash (since you can't recycle it). I don't keep shit that's broken beyond repair unless I can use it for parts, and I don't care for CD/DVD coasters.

I don't have ANY moral reservations about playing backups of games that haven't been available at retail for 15+ years, ESPECIALLY if they weren't EVER available in this country (i.e. stuff like Radiant Silvergun, Marvel vs SF, etc). I'm not taking food from anyone's mouth by doing so.

Legally you are within your rights to make ONE backup of a soft that you legitimately own. It's a holdover from decades ago, but is still technically applicable.

[Graham Mitchell]

Just FYI--I suspect I killed the laser on my cd 32 playing cdrs. I followed all the advice, bought the right kind of cdrs, burned at a slow speed, etc. and one day it wouldn't load any games at all.

I don't know exactly what happened, but I'm just putting this out there as a cautionary tale...

[IHatedSega]

Id just go with emulation over messing with burned copies, especially for the Sega CD. Kega Fusion is an awesome choice. The way I see it is either to go emulation route, or real deal all the way.

[jperryss]

Id just go with emulation over messing with burned copies, especially for the Sega CD. Kega Fusion is an awesome choice. The way I see it is either to go emulation route, or real deal all the way.

Well yeah, except that burns are basically identical from a playing standpoint, whereas emulation is not. :D

[ifkz]

The way I see it is either to go emulation route, or real deal all the way.

+1 I totally agree. Part of the fun of classic game collecting is to get that great deal at auction or in the wild. Save up until you can afford to do things right, to the OP, you have a great, rare system to start with if you want to get into collecting the Sega CD or Genesis.

[IHatedSega]

Well yeah, except that burns are basically identical from a playing standpoint, whereas emulation is not. :D

Its just a real pain to track down and get the 12 or so games actually worth playing for the SCD. :/ emulation is really the way to go with me.

[Jack_Burton_BYOAC]

Its just a real pain to track down and get the 12 or so games actually worth playing for the SCD. :/ emulation is really the way to go with me.

I don't think you quite got the part where he said that playing from a CD-R plays identically to a CD-ROM. It's literally the exact same game.

[IHatedSega]

I don't think you quite got the part where he said that playing from a CD-R plays identically to a CD-ROM. It's literally the exact same game.

And as the OP said he has almost no games for the system, and he can only buy games dirt cheap. Emulation is a better option for him, really, while over time he collects games for the system. If he wants to download games from a site, and then burn them then he has the route others have touched upon above(remember to burn games at a pretty slow setting by the way). For me, if I dont have the actual game and its for a console like the Dreamcast or after, then Id rather buy actual games for it. Emulation of Sega CD games is pretty great, and Im just letting him know of another option.

[CRTGAMER]

Is it true that burned CD games can damage the laser?
Are there certain brands which are safer to use?
Higher quality?
A burned disc makes the Laser work a little harder in readiing the data vs a pressed disc. So in a sense it will wear the laser out faster.

[Jack_Burton_BYOAC]

And as the OP said he has almost no games for the system, and he can only buy games dirt cheap. Emulation is a better option for him, really, while over time he collects games for the system. If he wants to download games from a site, and then burn them then he has the route others have touched upon above(remember to burn games at a pretty slow setting by the way). For me, if I dont have the actual game and its for a console like the Dreamcast or after, then Id rather buy actual games for it. Emulation of Sega CD games is pretty great, and Im just letting him know of another option.

I still don't see why he would ever want to emulate games when he has the original hardware in hand. He has a replacement laser assembly, and as many other have said, there's no danger in playing CD-R's. Any system that stops playing after playing properly made CD-R's is doing so because of general wear and tear on the system, not the difference in medium.

If your point is that he he will be disinclined to collect games when he already has a burned copy, well that's just an issue of willpower and devotion. I don't think sticking to emulation to create some sort of imaginary dividing line between "real" collecting of CD-ROMs and playing CD-R's is going to be very effective.

The truth is when it comes to systems that lack copyright protection such as the Sega CD, PCE-CD, or Dreamcast very few people are going to go out of their way to buy a game if all they are concerned about is playing it. It would be rather foolhardy to track down a legitimate copy of Castlevania: Dracula X and spend upwards of 100 dollars on it when you could download an ISO file and be playing the game in 5 minutes.

Some may say that takes the fun out of the chase, the feeling of satisfaction obtained when you hold a rare gem in your hands, and know that it's the real deal. More power to those people. In my experience they are more concerned with the "game" of video game collecting itself than actually getting around to playing through the games they buy. Nothing at all wrong with that, btw. However, often these people come at odds ideologically with those who do not share their views (or bank account in many instances).


A burned disc makes the Laser work a little harder in readiing the data vs a pressed disc. So in a sense it will wear the laser out faster.

I have yet to see concrete proof of this. I've seen it on many forums in my research, and not really any data to back it up. It's true that CD-R's have a lower reflectivity than pressed CD-ROMs, however it is more likely that the disc will simply fail to read if that reflectivity is too low, rather than have the system adjust the voltage of the laser on the fly. In fact, I'm not even sure that older systems are even capable of such a thing.

[IHatedSega]

He hasnt even replied to this thread since the laser comment. If hes worried about it failing on him constantly, then he might as well play games on his new, or at least newer than an 18 year old console, computer. Im just letting him know of all his options.

[kedawa]

I've seen many, many xbox 360 dvd drives that needed new lasers because the owners pirate games but are too cheap to buy good media.
I had a similar experience with Playstation 2, although it's nowhere near as bad.
With CD based systems, it doesn't seem to make that much of a difference.

[wiggyx]

Many, many Xboxes require new lasers that haven't been playing backups. I don't see empirical data here.

[Jack_Burton_BYOAC]

I've seen many, many xbox 360 dvd drives that needed new lasers because the owners pirate games but are too cheap to buy good media.
I had a similar experience with Playstation 2, although it's nowhere near as bad.
With CD based systems, it doesn't seem to make that much of a difference.

A note:

The PS2 is a special exception when it comes to playing DVD backups. For lack of a better explanation, the laser assembly is designed to self-destruct when it detects you are not playing on licensed media. For more details see this thread at assemblergames:

http://www.assemblergames.com/forums/showthread.php?36001-PS1-and-PS2-R-RW-Media-and-Mini-CD-DVD-Media&p=541733&viewfull=1#post541733

Some good info on other issues dealing with CD-R use here. l_oliveira is a sony guru, probably one of the most knowledgeable people in the world about Sony hardware, and other systems too.


He hasnt even replied to this thread since the laser comment. If hes worried about it failing on him constantly, then he might as well play games on his new, or at least newer than an 18 year old console, computer. Im just letting him know of all his options.

Threads can go beyond the OP. It's a discussion forum. I enjoy the issues of collectibility vs playability, and the varying opinions in between.

[ifkz]

I have a bit of an example: My TurboDuo. I got it at auction years ago, the seller said the laser didn't work and sold it to me at a huge loss versus what it would have gone for working all the way. No sound issues, no video issues, and card games played fine.

I get it and he's thrown in a few burned copies of games like Castlevania Dracula X. One legitimate CD game was included, a copy of Prince of Persia.

Sure enough, the burned games would not load or play. But, here is the shocker: The Prince of Persia played fine. Loaded and played. This seller sold a perfectly working, very valuable system, just because he insisted on playing these burned CD-Rs.

This was also the start of my console laser replacement education, the HOP-M3 if I remember right. Anyhow, further proof that other TurboDuo owners can backup:

For fun I duplicated these CD-Rs on to different types of media: Memorex, Fuji, cheap stuff, expensive stuff, different speed burns. With every CD-R the new HOP M3 struggled slightly and produced an audible hum. Retail discs were fine. I don't know what it was doing to the unit, but I was convinced it was not good. Like I said, I've read a few other posts about the hum using CDRs. Retail discs are fine. So there you go.

Now, what gets me with this fellow, is that I helped him get it going in the tech forum here. Or I would like to think I helped. I got so cheesed off, I got rid of all the tech knowledge I could from my posts. I've spent several years in the arcade collecting community, where we fix old 350lb monsters. We share. We trade tech tips. We offer repair advice. We find part vendors. Anything it takes to help out fellow collectors and keep these beasts going. We might have an emulation rig in a former empty cab for kicks. Bottom line, we don't destroy classics, which is (to me) what this is doing...an anology. It is like turning a newly fixed Quantum into a 60-in-1.

The internet has told me there were only 5000 Sega CDXs made. It is a complicated system for a new would-be technician: few care to learn how to open and reassemble it, most give up and sell them or toss them in the garbage. Personally, it makes me sad to think that one of the remaining few that are left after 20 years was fixed...only to be trashed again using CDR gaming. Perhaps I am out of step with some members here. I mean, this is a site that has game rarity lists. It lists recommended price points. It has well written reviews. It has a section for finds and lore. I don't see the purpose of ripping off games here. These are not prototypes. These are not homebrews. This is, simply: I don't want to pay for it right now, so I'm just going to rip it off.

If I ran into the creator of Sonic CD at an expo, I would rather tell him I have a legitimate copy of the game that I play on real hardware. Not that I downloaded it on a torrent and play it on a CDR that in all likelyhood will kill whatever console it is played on. Especially a rare-bird like the Sega CDX, which always appears at the top of the Sega 16-bit auction resale market.

[IHatedSega]

Threads can go beyond the OP. It's a discussion forum. I enjoy the issues of collectibility vs playability, and the varying opinions in between.

Have you ever played any games on Kega Fusion? I have 9 games for SCD alone and they all play well on it. If he wants to collect games, fine thats awesome, he could even rip the games to his computer then use KF to play them and cut down on scratching the disks keeping his collection up in value.

[Rickstilwell1]

The way I see it, if he is smart enough to replace the laser lens himself, then he can just stock up on those replacements lenses and play as many burned games as he wants the rest of his life just replacing them as many times as needed. The convenience of having that little system that can be taken around can be used to its full potential as he will be the white mage who has the resurrect spell. I would only worry about preserving the system when you're down to your last lens and you can't find anymore online. It's just like NES and those 72 pin connectors.

[kedawa]

If I ran into the creator of Sonic CD at an expo, I would rather tell him I have a legitimate copy of the game that I play on real hardware. Not that I downloaded it on a torrent and play it on a CDR that in all likelyhood will kill whatever console it is played on. Especially a rare-bird like the Sega CDX, which always appears at the top of the Sega 16-bit auction resale market.

So tell him that. Tell him you have fifty copies. It makes no difference either way. He doesn't see a dime of that secondhand sale money.
As for the hardware, it isn't going to survive much longer anyway. It's better that it gets enjoyed by someone while it lasts than to have it rust on a shelf for want of games to play.

[Jack_Burton_BYOAC]

...Not that I downloaded it on a torrent and play it on a CDR that in all likelyhood will kill whatever console it is played on. Especially a rare-bird like the Sega CDX, which always appears at the top of the Sega 16-bit auction resale market. (clipped for length)

As I have posted earlier, there is little evidence that using properly prepared CD-R's to play on this particular system will harm it.

Any "hum" you may have heard is odd. There's no reason for there to be any audible difference when playing CD-R's versus vs CD-ROM's other than perhaps the laser lens moving back and forth more often if the rip is improperly prepared. Even if the PCE-CD were an APC enabled system I don't think that would result in any more noise from increased laser power.

In your particular case with PCE-CD I suspect that the laser assembly of this particular system was nearing its death, regardless of its history with CD-R media. Pressed CD's -are- easier to read after all, and that would explain the ability to read commercial CD's and not the CD-R's.

I will agree with you that perhaps the OP would be better served by selling the CDX to a collector such as yourself and purchasing a second hand Sega CD and using the spare funds however he wishes. It's likely he could even buy the more common SCD unit plus a few games off of the same collector. But then he wouldn't have the CDX anymore.

As for the rest of your post, I'll just say I disagree on many fronts. I think it is unfortunate that those seeking repair information on this system with (in your opinion) benign reasons must suffer because of your perceived slights from a single person. But it is your information, and yours to do with as you choose.

Playing CD-R's on real hardware is not like an icade 60-in-1 in a wooden cabinet. The 60-in-1 is an emulator. This is not. A more apt comparision would be playing a bootleg Neo-geo cart in an MVS cabinet.

Finally:


This is, simply: I don't want to pay for it right now, so I'm just going to rip it off.


Have you ever downloaded an MP3? A movie? A tv show? ROMS? Ever burned a DVD? Did you pay for them?

Just because video games are more near and dear to your heart does not mean they get a special exception from the piracy morality police. You may make any reason you wish about conserving the CDX hardware, but to insist that he simply shouldn't download the games in any form is ridiculous.

[zektor]

I've heard that, basically, as long as your media is Taiyo Yuden, you're safe.

Agreed. Take it from a guy that has been using this media for many years. These are the best when it comes to vintage cd based consoles.

[Aussie2B]

There are many reasons why someone would want to play burned CDs on their systems. It doesn't always boil down to simply "I don't want to spend the money to get the real deal." Just to name a few examples: Someone may own a very valuable game, perhaps already in somewhat damaged condition that they don't want to make worse or the damage affects how it plays, so they make a back-up to play while the original stays safe. A fan patch of a Japanese-only disc-based game may be available, and the only way to play the game on an actual system is to either play the Japanese original or burn a disc with the English translation. Or you may want to play a Japanese game, but due to regional lockout, it won't work on your system, so you burn a disc with the region data changed.

I dabble in emulation, flash carts, and burned discs very, very little, almost always going for a 100% authentic experience, but even I can realize that there are valid benefits to things like burned games.

[zektor]

There are many reasons why someone would want to play burned CDs on their systems. It doesn't always boil down to simply "I don't want to spend the money to get the real deal." Just to name a few examples: Someone may own a very valuable game, perhaps already in somewhat damaged condition that they don't want to make worse or the damage affects how it plays, so they make a back-up to play while the original stays safe. A fan patch of a Japanese-only disc-based game may be available, and the only way to play the game on an actual system is to either play the Japanese original or burn a disc with the English translation. Or you may want to play a Japanese game, but due to regional lockout, it won't work on your system, so you burn a disc with the region data changed.

I dabble in emulation, flash carts, and burned discs very, very little, almost always going for a 100% authentic experience, but even I can realize that there are valid benefits to things like burned games.



Not to mention things like those Dreamcast MP3 players (Pelican, Blaze) where you need to burn MP3 to CD-R, emulators of course, and yes, backups are good of games you own. I Would rather put the wear and tear on a backup of a rare game than my original if possible.

[Schiggidyd]

Hey guys. OP here. I read every comment and am surprised with the amount of responses and discussion I've started.
As usual, there is no clear answer as to if burned discs ruin systems, there are simply so many varying opinions.
I am the "Stock" system type of collector, I don't like using burned discs, bootleg cartridges, or even third party AC adapters.

Which Is why I took the next step in protecting my CDX by buying one of the original AC adaptors off ebay for 30 bucks (yikes! And that was 10 dollars off the sellers set price!)

After all this discussion, I think I will just be patient and gather loose discs or whatever I can from local flea markets as opposed to risking with burned discs, because I do like the feeling of finding rarities or excellent games in the wild.

I have 315 Genesis games to hold me over, so my CDX will still get use, but that laser won't be getting much use until I find some legit Sega CD games.

Thanks every one!