LCD TV recommendation (2013)

[Niku-Sama]

i'm sure this has been asked but i am going to ask again because tv models change several times a year now and it changes up so much.
i'm going to probably get a replacment tv since mine is acting strangly. Random resets and lately it cant sync with the audio from my PS3 it just gives strange static sounds.

I was wondering what would be good for an LCD, dont care what kind of features probably in the 47"+ range.

i just notice a delay from the audio and the video when playing SNES on it lately...its pretty bad.

my old 32" vizio didnt have that problem and its 7 years old. needs a new PSU and it'll be back and running.
maybe this newer 47" has a delay because its "smart" and its trying to do something to the video? either way i have all the fancy shut off

[Tanooki]

I'm not sure how much this will help, but that said follow me with this.

I have a Panasonic Viera LCD I got around 1-2years before Circuit City went out of business, it runs 720p(though I've seen stuff report back 1080p) and at 60hz. It doesn't have a game mode or any other bullshit, it just gets the job done. Around a year ago or so I got a 46" Samsung LED tv, this one is 1080p and 120hz, it does have ways to enable or disable certain junk that corrects or adjusts and you can activate a game mode under certain conditions.

Clarity:
The Panasonic LCD will run my NES, SNES, and other pre-Gamecube era stuff with an almost emulator on a PC type sharpness. Colors are good, no soft edges, no bleed, nothing, just clean on good old RCA cables. Now the Samsung is the opposite of this as the imagery is like if someone had an old late 80s color TV and someone was daisy chaining like 3-4 RF cables back to back. There's blur to all of it, really soft rounded off edges, no real color bleed, it's just 'muddy' as people like to prank on N64 for over it's AA features when used badly.

Speed:
Panasonic wins here too and oddly enough a really good test for this outside of old systems which is really screwy would be Super Mario Allstars 25th Anniv package for the Wii. The game on there runs 1:1 speed, there's no input lag, no weirdness, everything dials in and does as you want as you do it. The Samsung though wow, not a chance, which is odd as other stuff like even New SMB Wii run fine, but the old emulator SMAS runs with significant input lag to where it's almost like a 1/4 second delay or damn near something like that as I just end up dead on it time and again.

I didn't even realize it at first when I bought the game when it was released, got pissed at it for being lazy shitty Nintendo corner cutting. I only realized it was the stupid TV when I got one again super cheap a few months ago or so but only got to it in early November, and wow, again like my SNES cart, it ran at 1:1 speed on the Panasonic which I never even thought to try it on.


Now through all that rambling of evidence, keep this in mind and hell I may be wrong but it fits. Once I found that Wii emulated SNES game running right it blew me away so I did some research. I found out that supposedly 60hz tv's are the best to be using for in particular classic pre-3D or 1st gen(N64 era) titles because they run at the right response time and look crisper(mind you the crispness probably varies by tv model.) My readings said that 120 or even 240hz tvs basically resample the video it is fed so for a 120hz it's got double lag having to run the image twice and 4x over on 240 which is why they have these lame bandaid 'game mode' fixes and other on/off switches for junk in the settings.

I'd suggest finding something that runs at 60hz from a local shop that has returns, take it home, pop your NES, SNES, etc into it and see how it rolls. If I'm and the other stuff I read up is right you'll be happy.

[Greg2600]

I have a Sony Bravia 32. It looks perfect, but the sound is crap via HDMI from my FIOS STB, yet I blame it on FIOS's old equipment. I would try to get one with as many Component ports as possible! And VGA port.

[wiggyx]

I have 2 Samsung LCDs and both HATE my SNES. I've heard other Samsung owners with issues with the SNES as well. I'd recommend against a Samsung if that's what you're interested in using the TV for.

[Niku-Sama]

I'm not sure how much this will help, but that said follow me with this.

I have a Panasonic Viera LCD I got around 1-2years before Circuit City went out of business, it runs 720p(though I've seen stuff report back 1080p) and at 60hz. It doesn't have a game mode or any other bullshit, it just gets the job done. Around a year ago or so I got a 46" Samsung LED tv, this one is 1080p and 120hz, it does have ways to enable or disable certain junk that corrects or adjusts and you can activate a game mode under certain conditions.

Clarity:
The Panasonic LCD will run my NES, SNES, and other pre-Gamecube era stuff with an almost emulator on a PC type sharpness. Colors are good, no soft edges, no bleed, nothing, just clean on good old RCA cables. Now the Samsung is the opposite of this as the imagery is like if someone had an old late 80s color TV and someone was daisy chaining like 3-4 RF cables back to back. There's blur to all of it, really soft rounded off edges, no real color bleed, it's just 'muddy' as people like to prank on N64 for over it's AA features when used badly.

Speed:
Panasonic wins here too and oddly enough a really good test for this outside of old systems which is really screwy would be Super Mario Allstars 25th Anniv package for the Wii. The game on there runs 1:1 speed, there's no input lag, no weirdness, everything dials in and does as you want as you do it. The Samsung though wow, not a chance, which is odd as other stuff like even New SMB Wii run fine, but the old emulator SMAS runs with significant input lag to where it's almost like a 1/4 second delay or damn near something like that as I just end up dead on it time and again.

I didn't even realize it at first when I bought the game when it was released, got pissed at it for being lazy shitty Nintendo corner cutting. I only realized it was the stupid TV when I got one again super cheap a few months ago or so but only got to it in early November, and wow, again like my SNES cart, it ran at 1:1 speed on the Panasonic which I never even thought to try it on.


Now through all that rambling of evidence, keep this in mind and hell I may be wrong but it fits. Once I found that Wii emulated SNES game running right it blew me away so I did some research. I found out that supposedly 60hz tv's are the best to be using for in particular classic pre-3D or 1st gen(N64 era) titles because they run at the right response time and look crisper(mind you the crispness probably varies by tv model.) My readings said that 120 or even 240hz tvs basically resample the video it is fed so for a 120hz it's got double lag having to run the image twice and 4x over on 240 which is why they have these lame bandaid 'game mode' fixes and other on/off switches for junk in the settings.

I'd suggest finding something that runs at 60hz from a local shop that has returns, take it home, pop your NES, SNES, etc into it and see how it rolls. If I'm and the other stuff I read up is right you'll be happy.

thats interesting to know, Super mario world has the least delay on the snes, All Stars on snes has the medium delay but all stars on the wii has the worst delay! the tv is a 120 hz tv and i did notice turning off frame smoothing and film mode and all those other "enhancments" helped but its still bad. I do remember all stars on snes having a delay all the time but it was workable on a tube tv, any thing added ontop of it make it damn near impossible.


I have a Sony Bravia 32. It looks perfect, but the sound is crap via HDMI from my FIOS STB, yet I blame it on FIOS's old equipment. I would try to get one with as many Component ports as possible! And VGA port.

The hook ups have been a major problem lately i have noticed. I have even run into that problem with the recivers i have been buying. both tvs and recivers have little to no analog inputs for stereo sound and lave little to no composite or component inputs. of if they do they dont have the features i want. I wanted a reciver that would pass though component or composite over HDMI to the tv for the video feed so i only have one cable going to and from the tv to the reciver but the ones that do that have shit for inputs.

tv's are worse, i work at wally world in the electronics and its been down to crap for inputs. most tvs have NO component, 1 composite and a bajillion HDMI, HDMI is great and all but what about people with older things? i know some one will say thats because its the way things are going and all you need to do is change your equipment but when i get that at work i tell people when they untill making NES systems with an HDMI output they need to have more than what they have been coming with lately. Alot of items arent being made any more so how are you going to upgrade them to take advantage of new connectivity technology.....could go on and on about this, you get the gist


I have 2 Samsung LCDs and both HATE my SNES. I've heard other Samsung owners with issues with the SNES as well. I'd recommend against a Samsung if that's what you're interested in using the TV for.

thats ok i am not a huge samsung fan. they have been riding the "best rated tv ever" train for way too long and their quality has definitly gotten really bad or every one else is catching up or passed them in quality because lately it isnt the samsung that stands out its the Vizio or LG or Hisense that kicks the samsung ass.


Yes i said Hisense, its a brand that some walmarts carry. Basicly a TV from the chinese goverment but the picture is good and they rarely have any problems and the price.....You thought vizio was kicking butt with prices when they first came out these guys at hisense are doing the same thing but 3 times more cost to quality than vizio did. Hisense is a major part of the reason tv prices have plummeted in the past year

[Ed Oscuro]

http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=42092

LCD is NOT the right choice for SNES and old consoles, too many issues you're likely to run into visually (no scanlines, wrong aspect ratio) - and a "good" gaming TV is going to have up to 2 frames of lag!

Instead I would take a look around for a small-ish CRT television (or even a pro Trinitron monitor if you have the money) and get an LCD screen for your "daily" viewing and HD consoles.

Interestingly I have read that there may be some further lag issues with many PS3 games and non-720p televisions, as the TV will have to upscale from 720p and this is a well-known source of lag.

[Tanooki]

Ed that's exactly what I was talking about in my big ass post there. Those 120hz sets have twice the frames of lag over the 60hz model, and when you don't put on game mode or turn off every instance of 'enhancement' fluff that processes the image somehow it gets uglier.

I do have a CRT I use, but just for the nes (built in), n64 (since 1st gen 3D hates LCD tvs), and a master system I have. It just runs and feels right there, but the LCD I have does it just as nicely too since I have it set to zero enhancements fortunately.

[alec006]

Being that I'm most likely going to be buying an LED LCD TV in 2013, thought I ask, what about Plasma? I've heard some but not many Plasmas do accept the old 240p low resolution signals old consoles produce you just have to watch out for burn in and they are still expensive than LCDs. Do hey have any lag time? Either way I'm still keeping a CRT.

[Niku-Sama]

the reason i am asking is because this is for the main room and some times its better with people over to have the older systems out there. for something with a tube i have 27" and 19" Sony Trinitrons.
but yea for the main room something that would be good for old as well as new is what i am looking for

[Leo_A]

Being that I'm most likely going to be buying an LED LCD TV in 2013, thought I ask, what about Plasma? I've heard some but not many Plasmas do accept the old 240p low resolution signals old consoles produce you just have to watch out for burn in and they are still expensive than LCDs. Do hey have any lag time? Either way I'm still keeping a CRT.

Most any HDTV will accept a 240p signal (Although many will hardly do a decent job of displaying it). Plasmas aren't unique in that regard and still have a fixed resolution just like a LCD has with all content not matching that having to be scaled by a scaling chip (Which doesn't care in the slightest what the screen technology is). So there's absolutely no advantage over LCD technology there.

They're generally a bit better with colors (Particularly deep blacks) and motion blur but LCD technology has also advanced greatly so those advantages aren't what they once were. And if you want to play classic games on a plasma while pillarboxed for any length of time, you will suffer from temporary image retention that sometimes can require several hours of widescreen programming to erase the ghosts. There's no way around it unless you just play for a few minutes at a time and then move on to something that's 16:9.

And despite great strides, permanent screen burn-in can still happen on a plasma. Particularly during the first 1,000 hours or so of use and if you're not following the instructions on breaking in your set.

So if you want to play classic games at their OAR on one, I'd give it careful consideration. I watch many 4:3 television shows and Academy ratio movies (The standard before widescreen processes took over in the early 1950's so I've stayed away from plasmas. Not only would I regularly be suffering from IR, I imagine that pillarboxing would've became permanent fixtures by now since I watch relatively little full screen 16:9 programming (Particularly during the winter months when motorsports takes a hiatus around the world).

[alec006]

Most any HDTV will accept a 240p signal (Although many will hardly do a decent job of displaying it). Plasmas aren't unique in that regard and still have a fixed resolution just like a LCD has with all content not matching that having to be scaled by a scaling chip (Which doesn't care in the slightest what the screen technology is). So there's absolutely no advantage over LCD technology there.

They're generally a bit better with colors (Particularly deep blacks) and motion blur but LCD technology has also advanced greatly so those advantages aren't what they once were. And if you want to play classic games on a plasma while pillarboxed for any length of time, you will suffer from temporary image retention that sometimes can require several hours of widescreen programming to erase the ghosts. There's no way around it unless you just play for a few minutes at a time and then move on to something that's 16:9.

And despite great strides, permanent screen burn-in can still happen on a plasma. Particularly during the first 1,000 hours or so of use and if you're not following the instructions on breaking in your set.

So if you want to play classic games at their OAR on one, I'd give it careful consideration. I watch many 4:3 television shows and Academy ratio movies (The standard before widescreen processes took over in the early 1940's) so I've stayed away from plasmas. Not only would I regularly be suffering from IR, I imagine that pillarboxing would've became permanent fixtures by now since I watch relatively little full screen 16:9 programming (Particularly during the winter months when motorsports takes a hiatus around the world).

That made up my mind, I myself do watch some old academy aspect ratio movies too, along with childhood cartoons, anime and sitcoms that are all in 4:3. Not to mention all my home movies are mostly in 4:3 as well. An LCD would be a better value it looks like, not to mention easier on the wallet, and I do plan on getting a XRGB Framemeister since most of my consoles have RGB cables already and that will help the TV so it doesn't have to use it's own scaler. Thanks so much Leo!

[plc268]

Some people might think I'm crazy, but if you're going to play on a modern TV, a proper video scaler is a must. And in my mind, there's really only one scaler worth buying, the xRGB mini. It's not cheap though (~$450), and you'll have to import it from Japan.

Now, you may be thinking, why the hell do I need a 500 dollar box from japan to play my old consoles? Well, there's a couple of reasons.

1. It'll standardize and convert all your inputs (rgb/scart, component, composite, svideo) into HDMI. Let's face it, HDMI isn't going anywhere soon, and analog connections on new TVs are starting to fade away. Sure, most TVs still include composite connections, but SVideo on TVs are getting harder and harder to find.

2. It'll reduce your input lag a little, especially if your TV is a horrendous internal scaler. Now, it won't do nothing to fix the inherent display lag that's evident in lcds themselves (depending on the panel technology, some lcds have much lower lag/refresh rate than others). Chances are, your TV has a poor scaler and will introduce extra frames of lag. Ever play something like super mario world, and something feels off? Like you press the jump button and the action is delayed ever so slightly? Chances are, it's the internal scaler.

3. It'll just make the picture look better. A lot of TVs introduce extra artifacts into the videos. It's just a product of...again... a bad scaler. If you have Final Fantasy 3/6, look at the opening scene in the game where you're walking around the town. There's grates on the floor. When you move vertically, everything looks fine. Move in a horizontal motion, and the grates blur. This shouldn't happen. I've seen it happen on every LCD I've ever plugged my SNES into, but it shouldn't be there. However, with my SNES plugged into the xrgb mini, this artifacting and blurring does not occur any more.


In my mind, there's three choiced: save up and buy an external scaler (there's others, but the mini just happens to be the best), live with a terrible picture on an lcd/plasma, or find a corner to stash an old CRT into.

[otaku]

I've only owned a sony bravia from 07 which I sold last year nice set I'd consider one again. Samsung seems to be the best/most popular brand with vizio being close and best in price. If I were buying it would all depend on finances I'd go as big as I could which could lead to a vizio

[Ed Oscuro]

Some people might think I'm crazy, but if you're going to play on a modern TV, a proper video scaler is a must. And in my mind, there's really only one scaler worth buying, the xRGB mini.
Of course it depends on what you use it for - if you have an old VGA monitor, then another scaler is a better choice (since the Mini doesn't have its own VGA output). Still, I forget that Fudoh gives it the top recommendation (http://retrogaming.hazard-city.de/) in his scaler ratings (from May 2012), especially for LCD sets.

Its only real downside is 480p content, which is admittedly rarer to come by but can be a real concern

Some sets do pretty well without scalers - Fudoh's plasma mention (http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=43256) (Pioneer PDP-V402) handles 480p (i.e., GameCube) as well as 240p very well. This is a rare set though, and not really likely to fill the other uses of an LCD screen well.

[BlastProcessing402]

I have 2 Samsung LCDs and both HATE my SNES. I've heard other Samsung owners with issues with the SNES as well. I'd recommend against a Samsung if that's what you're interested in using the TV for.

I would recommend against a Samsung as well, but not because of any issues with consoles (though nothing composite era looks very good on it IMO) but because they put faulty caps in their power supplies. There was a class action over it, and they're repairing TV's from 2008 or earlier with the bad caps, but apparently they didn't stop doing using bad caps because my Samsung just developed one of the same issues as they got class actioned over. Of course mine's too new to get in on the class action settlement, but also ~3 weeks out of warranty. Never buying Samsung again.

[wiggyx]

http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=42092

LCD is NOT the right choice for SNES and old consoles, too many issues you're likely to run into visually (no scanlines, wrong aspect ratio) - and a "good" gaming TV is going to have up to 2 frames of lag!

Instead I would take a look around for a small-ish CRT television (or even a pro Trinitron monitor if you have the money) and get an LCD screen for your "daily" viewing and HD consoles.

I personally recommend against recommending things for which the OP was NOT seeking recommendations :P


I would recommend against a Samsung as well, but not because of any issues with consoles (though nothing composite era looks very good on it IMO) but because they put faulty caps in their power supplies. There was a class action over it, and they're repairing TV's from 2008 or earlier with the bad caps, but apparently they didn't stop doing using bad caps because my Samsung just developed one of the same issues as they got class actioned over. Of course mine's too new to get in on the class action settlement, but also ~3 weeks out of warranty. Never buying Samsung again.

Wow, had no idea that there was actually a suit!

I replaced the caps in my 46"er from 2007 a few years back. Pissed me off that I had to repair a 2 year old TV :(

[Niku-Sama]

yea i have several tv's for use in what will soon be the game room, 2 of them trinitrons one of them very old school knobs and UHF/VHF hookups (and a LUMISPONDER!)

but this is for the main room because not every one is going to want to go in in groups of 5 or 6 to a smallish room to play a game on a tiny tv.

interesting info i found though....

Pioneer PDP-40/401 (http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/PUSA/Professional/Plasma/PDP-V400+%7C+PDP-V401)
Pioneer PDP-402 (http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/PUSA/Professional/Plasma/PDP-V402)

was mensioned in a link, i think i may try to hunt one of these guys down. Odd specs though but it would be perfect for the show that i want to get going some time (think gamecenter but live streamed and with call ins for tips to the player)


any way i still am hearing no samsung but not a whole lot of other things aside 120 and 240hz tvs cause lag over composite. theres got to be a tv that is able to run games without lag but is 120 and 240hz. a computer monitor can adjust its refreshrate why shouldnt a tv? a monitor and a tv are one in the same now with LCDs every where, some just have tuners and some dont.

[Ed Oscuro]

I personally recommend against recommending things for which the OP was NOT seeking recommendations :P
I recommend you stick to your own knitting.

I should have said this though: The OP ought to have somebody pointing out that retro systems on LCD, while doable, is going to take either a very specific (and probably no longer produced) panel type to play 240p games well (ie the really ancient Panasonic PDP Fudoh mentioned in the link I gave), or will require a $300+ investment in a scaler (i.e. the Micomsoft XRGB mimi Framemeister). A scaler isn't such a bad way to go.

That said, CRT is still the better way to go for SNES playing in 2013.

[Niku-Sama]

speaking of knitting and sticking to it.

have said a couple of times i have several CRTs for playing "in true form"
i'm looking for something that does well for a larger 47" and up LCD

if you could knit me a 47" LCD that would be acceptable aswell....

[Ed Oscuro]

I gave you a recommendation in the post you have apparently perused: A good scaler will solve a lot of problems. If you buy one, you won't have to go hunting for that mythical set with perfectly fast 240p input scaling; just find a set with good input lag and you're good to go (assuming the scaler outputs the television's native resolution, as it should).

[kedawa]

Large format displays, which are basically huge computer monitors, are better than TVs when it comes to latency and scaling.

[Ed Oscuro]

Large format displays, which are basically huge computer monitors, are better than TVs when it comes to latency and scaling.
I haven't done extensive testing of scaling lag in my monitor myself, but I know there has got to be some amount. Probably not much. Stuff seems playable with it enabled. The quality is pretty good actually, although it's not nearly as "accurate" as you'd get from a standalone scaler box.

Just in case I guess I should lay out what the four likely options are, as I understand them:

- Use classic systems only on CRT televisions and get a low-lag LCD TV for modern consoles - probably the default option. I don't know if the PS3 720p "disclaimer" applies, but otherwise 1080p sets seem to be the standard.
- Get a scaler in addition to the above so you can enjoy classic systems on current televisions.
- Find some kind of screen that scales nearly without lag and with good quality - but if there is one of these, people don't know about it. Also, if it needs to be replaced you're back at square one. This kind of route will severely hamper your choices and I think it's best to be able to choose a screen you'd like. It's kind of like trying to find a good computer monitor with a portrait rotation function - sounds like a good idea in theory but it ends up just limiting your choices and it's just a function you can get from a third party device anyway.
- You could also look into getting a good monitor like kedawa mentioned, but I think those get expensive and generally don't seem big enough for comfortable distance viewing. However this doesn't entirely solve the problems because you will still need to convert from the console's output to HDMI, DVI, or whatever the screen uses. On top of that, a good scaler will be faster and have cleaner output than most displays. Maybe the current Sony OLEDs have a good fast scaler inside but I wouldn't count on it.

[needler420]

If you're trying to buy a LCD TV to use on retro video games you're doing it backwards and making yourself jump through hula hoops.

All you need is a CRT TV. I wouldn't buy any scaler for $500 dollars though.

[Ed Oscuro]

Already said that. CRTs don't last forever and not everybody has them, so a scaler can be a very flexible piece of equipment to have. For example, if you were taking games on the road to a meet. I assume there may still be new scalers made in years to come but there are some pretty good ones out right now. I expect they will only get better as time goes on though.

[needler420]

Already said that. CRTs don't last forever and not everybody has them, so a scaler can be a very flexible piece of equipment to have. For example, if you were taking games on the road to a meet. I assume there may still be new scalers made in years to come but there are some pretty good ones out right now. I expect they will only get better as time goes on though.

Where I live you can get a CRT TV for under $20 bucks if not free. As people upgrade to flat screens their old picture tube TVs sit in storage. For many people they are big and bulky and take up space so they give them away.

CRT TVs won't last forever just as a scaler won't last forever either.

[Ed Oscuro]

CRT TVs won't last forever just as a scaler won't last forever either.
We're not talking about "forever" because yes, the end of the universe may well be low-energy photons drifting out into endless space.

In the short term, CRTs have a relatively limited service life; even if they are well treated things can go wrong and the number of parts and technicians willing to deal with them at an affordable price is decreasing. A scaler box doesn't likely have nearly as short a lifespan as it is mostly made up of solid-state components. There is also no reason to think that scalers are going out of production any time soon.

I think by now we've all read the OP's clarifications that he is set for Trinitrons, so that is really just so much water down the sluice at this point.

[Niku-Sama]

yea and i passed up a 32" flat tube trinitron the other day while i was dumpster diving, manufacture date of 2000.

but yea all i am looking for is a tv that is best at laving a low lag without getting any thing else, i havent got much other than a bunch of "get a crt!" capt. obvious posts and then the occasional scaler in addition to a tv posts i havent herd much about a tv that by it self has a low ammount of lag.

i've been thinking for a long time about to word this so just to make it clear:


A good LCD tv that has a low ammount of lag by it self with out buying extras.
47"+ 1080p other than that not really much in the way of requirements other than the bolded larger low lag statment above


i know theres going to be lag but i realize that some are going to be better than others

and if i said i wanted to play the old games in true form i would have asked what was a good tv in the CRT post a few down from this one....or you know actually read the post before posting to make sure the question asked is applicable to my input or seccondary question

[Ed Oscuro]

It looks like this (http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1645885) has a bunch of links to useful resources. Basically go through the links and look for info.

Unfortunately I checked AVSforum (linked a few times above) and the whole forum display is cluttered with "Official X Owners thread" type stuff - pretty useless when you want to find out what's good to start with unfortunately.


Is there really no way to get all consoles lagless output to the native resolution of a modern TV without spending more than the cost of the tv or the console?
no, there is not.
Now, if you're interested in getting a TV just for Modern Gaming (as opposed to Classic Gaming...) then there are many options available to you (although native resolution and scaling-caused input lag can still be a problem if you have a mismatch between 720p and 1080p, for example).

Also, I've recently read that once you get above around 42" input lag gets markedly worse.

or you know actually read the post before posting to make sure the question asked is applicable to my input or seccondary question
No need to get snippy with people trying to help - you posted in Classic gaming, you mentioned your set is dying but not that you had CRTs, you mentioned you wanted to play SNES on LCD (see quote above) and I'm still not sure you understand that input lag varies from system to system. So chill.

[bigbacon]

Being that I'm most likely going to be buying an LED LCD TV in 2013, thought I ask, what about Plasma? I've heard some but not many Plasmas do accept the old 240p low resolution signals old consoles produce you just have to watch out for burn in and they are still expensive than LCDs. Do hey have any lag time? Either way I'm still keeping a CRT.

i have nes.snes,sms,genesis,wii,ps3 hooked up to a 50" LG Plasma I bought a few years ago and they all work flawlessly. Burn in isn't horrible and goes away quickly.

Using anything except RF, they look fantastic. I swear my nes and snes look way better than they ever did on a CRT. Crisp clean corners, no weirdness, bright vibrant colors.

Plasmas are getting harder to get but I sure love mine over the LCD in our bedroom any day. The picture is just so much better.

[ImMelody]

We have the 60 Hz version of this TV (http://www.amazon.com/LG-42LK520-42-Inch-1080p-HDTV/dp/B004OOS35C/ref=sr_1_1_m?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1357261307&sr=1-1&keywords=lg+42LK450+60+hz) and like it quite a bit. It doesn't have the vertical lines you usually get without a dedicated upscaler (thanks to looking into it more since joining here). We only have the 42" but relatively certain the larger ones will be similar.

[Ed Oscuro]

We have the 60 Hz version of this TV (http://www.amazon.com/LG-42LK520-42-Inch-1080p-HDTV/dp/B004OOS35C/ref=sr_1_1_m?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1357261307&sr=1-1&keywords=lg+42LK450+60+hz) and like it quite a bit. It doesn't have the vertical lines you usually get without a dedicated upscaler (thanks to looking into it more since joining here). We only have the 42" but relatively certain the larger ones will be similar.
Would that be this one? (http://www.amazon.com/LG-42LD450-42-Inch-1080p-HDTV/dp/B0039RRC7U)

I actually could check this year's LG 42" myself, which is also a 60Hz. I don't like its scaling of SD material at all (blurry damn mess, and when you turn the blur off, a pixelated damn mess; at no time do you get the correct aspect ratio, either) but it does pretty well with Blu-Ray and DVD. There is something about the way things look on these sets that I don't like but that's really not a matter here. I should check that out and get back here with my thoughts.

It's a bit frustrating, honestly, to try to give any recommendations like this because one never can be sure how the input lag or quality will be from one system to another. It does sound as if it has a low input lag, but its performance with native resolution doesn't guarantee that picture quality or low lag with other sources.

[kedawa]

There's a pretty active thread about low-latency displays on the shoryuken.com forums. You may want to check it out.

[wiggyx]

http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=42092

LCD is NOT the right choice for SNES and old consoles, too many issues you're likely to run into visually (no scanlines, wrong aspect ratio) - and a "good" gaming TV is going to have up to 2 frames of lag!

Instead I would take a look around for a small-ish CRT television (or even a pro Trinitron monitor if you have the money) and get an LCD screen for your "daily" viewing and HD consoles.

Interestingly I have read that there may be some further lag issues with many PS3 games and non-720p televisions, as the TV will have to upscale from 720p and this is a well-known source of lag.

I recommend not recommending things for which the OP was NOT seeking recommendation :P



and if i said i wanted to play the old games in true form i would have asked what was a good tv in the CRT post a few down from this one....or you know actually read the post before posting to make sure the question asked is applicable to my input or seccondary question

So common on this forum. People feel this strange need to TELL you what you want and/or need, even when you're not at all asking for that sort of info, and it's often as if to say "I know more than you".

[Ed Oscuro]

So where do you come off patrolling his thread for him, numbnuts? I don't see where you got appointed his protector. If the worst things we had to deal with involved getting too much information, life would be pretty good.

So common on this forum. People feel this strange need to TELL you what you want and/or need, even when you're not at all asking for that sort of info, and it's often as if to say "I know more than you".
If nobody else knew more, then he wouldn't need to ask a question, dontcha think? Also WOW, you're pretty clueless if you think that what Fudoh says about lagless televisions doesn't matter. The truth sucks, but I guess it's more polite not to mention this? If it was me, I'd rather somebody mentioned what I needed to know (or at least tried to be helpfully contrary) so I didn't end up buying something that wasn't right for me.

So why don't you be the champ and tell us how we're going to get lagless SNES gameplay on a LCD without a scaler? Because the actual OP (and, y'know, the choice of subforum this was posted in) seems to indicate that a set for classic systems is a primary consideration.

p.s. I already explained why I gave more information instead of less, but keep beating this dead horse and trolling with old post responses, maybe some good will come of it! As opposed to, y'know, actually doing what the OP asked, which is actually mentioning a tv that will work (and not blaming your Samsungs because you don't know how to connect retro consoles to them).

[wiggyx]

Name calling is a great way to further your point.

I can recommend some great people to help you with that borderline personality disorder. Just me me know. I'm here for ya'.

[ImMelody]

Would that be this one? (http://www.amazon.com/LG-42LD450-42-Inch-1080p-HDTV/dp/B0039RRC7U)

Yes, that's the one. I don't find it to be terrible with blur. I get next to no delay. It may not be as good as a CRT, but for main living area where you want multiple generations connected, it's not bad either.

[Ed Oscuro]

Name calling is a great way to further your point.

I can recommend some great people to help you with that borderline personality disorder. Just me me know. I'm here for ya'.
I hope you've had fun, but you aren't even pretending to keep things on-topic at this point, as you were protesting about so stridently earlier. So far the only thing you've mentioned which was on topic wasn't even useful information yet ("I don't know how to get classic systems to work well with my Samsungs" is not a good reason to avoid all televisions from the brand; they manufacture many good televisions and panels used by a variety of manufacturers in good TVs).

Borderline personality disorder...name calling...that's a good joke! I'll be nice and assume you're not just blindly hypocritical.

I'm just here to help the OP so he doesn't spend a lot of money for a TV just because it has low lag only to find out it's not the best solution because it doesn't also have a fast internal scaler.

Yes, that's the one. I don't find it to be terrible with blur. I get next to no delay. It may not be as good as a CRT, but for main living area where you want multiple generations connected, it's not bad either.
Unfortunately no LCD is going to be as good as a CRT but you have to make do with what you get.

I've got the chance to look at an LG 42LM3700. I read somewhere or other that your LG is a bit faster than the 2011 model...no idea if it's actually true as it was just somebody's impression. This has gotten me interested in trying to figure out what the input lag is like on this set - I'd be happy to spend a minute testing out a SNES and seeing what it's like.

One problem I'm having with trying to help with the OP's request is that nobody really has any comprehensive listing of lag for televisions (and there are so many), even for regular HDMI (there is a new testing device out that will help with that). When you get to old SD sources, the situation gets somewhat worse because the set has to scale (as we've mentioned).

All that being said I have to admit there's not necessarily any reason to be frantic about it; even on the Shoryuken forums many people say that even the pros can't detect 2 or 3 frames of lag (but then other people will say that you need those). For many games it should be more than enough.

Really, the input lag stuff is not a big problem for most offline, non-competitive gaming. If you like loading up a favorite platformer now and then it's probably easy to adjust your timing a bit, if that's even necessary. If you wanted to play some of the toughest games from years past it might be a bit different. I would say "don't even worry about input lag if you aren't gaming competitively" but unfortunately some sets are just that bad you will notice no matter what, and you want to avoid those.

I think the best recommendation will probably be this: Take a system you would like to be able to play and get the store to let you try it out. For best input lag you will want to disable all kinds of motion interpolation, blurring, color correction, etc. - put it in "game mode" if it has it, obviously. This is really the only way to tell if it is up to your standards, or whether you don't mind changing your standards a little bit to suit what's available now. If it is, then there's no problem.

[wiggyx]

Where's that ignore button...


Found it.

[kedawa]

I'm just here to help the OP so he doesn't spend a lot of money for a TV just because it has low lag only to find out it's not the best solution because it doesn't also have a fast internal scaler.
I'm not sure what you're trying to say here.
Having a fast internal scaler is precisely what makes it 'low lag'.

[AcePuppy]

http://shoryuken.com/forum/index.php?threads/sub-1-frame-hdtv-monitor-input-lag-database.145141/

[encephalon]

I went from a small 22" Samsung to a Sony 32" Edge Lit EX340 and I did notice that the TV seemed to work better with my XRGB3 (less fidgeting with screen position which had to be done on my old TV) and I'm able to quickly adjust the color vibrancy for SD games with the extra settings so that it looks closer to what it would look like on an SDTV. Moreover, and this may be big or small depending on your viewpoint, but the TV no longer blacks out and cuts out the sound during resolution changes from the source. It can handle them seamlessly. So for PS1 games with different resolutions for titles screens and FMV (star ocean 2) or the opening PS1 logo (which always blacked out for me halfway), it's an improvement. I was worried about lag but I don't notice any.

[Ed Oscuro]

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here.
Having a fast internal scaler is precisely what makes it 'low lag'.
You're wrong, sorry.

When you see "this display has X ms of lag" that means (on any site you care to name) that it was tested for lag at its native resolution. Native resolution means the signal is in a format ready for the display. That is all the "low lag" designation means. And that is OK, because a scaler is an expensive type of device which most people do not need (or cannot afford, or would not care to purchase for the advantage it will give - in some cases going from a built-in to a dedicated scaler will only give a slight advantage, or even no especially worthwhile advantage - such as if you were to buy a fast scaler and then only use it to play RPGs).

A "fast internal scaler" (by the standards of low lag set by the XRGB series these don't exist as built-in units, which isn't hard to understand when you consider good scalers can be $500) would mean that there was less lag on that unit than there is on competing units.

This is very, very basic stuff. I'm kind of astonished to get this kind of resistance here to what is common knowledge on many sites.

Where's that ignore button...


Found it.
If life hands you your ass on a platter, make porkchop sandwiches.

Poor dude couldn't troll as good as he thought.

[kedawa]

No, I'm not.
We're talking about running content that's non-native resolution.
Context is important.

[Ed Oscuro]

No, I'm not.
We're talking about running content that's non-native resolution.
Context is important.
Indeed it is, which is why any newbie to the scene should know that whenever a set is called "low lag" it is essentially always in reference to the performance at native resolution - even if you persist in the belief that there are televisions out there with fast internal scalers (there are not, or at least, nobody has found any).

Nobody I know of does testing of televisions' composite inputs for lag, but there are many sources for low lag at native resolution.

The point of all this is that trying to force a non-standard definition (even if it is technically correct) for the term "low lag" is going to do nothing but confuse many people. At the very least you have to admit that we now have discussed what is really going on, so that the issue is out there. It never ceases to surprise me how much people hate finding things out - or at least admitting them. Use the information or don't, it doesn't bother me!

[kedawa]

Yes, it's important to differentiate between image processing that affects all content, and scaling that only affects non-native stuff.
What makes it all the more confusing is that many displays have a native resolution that doesn't match any signal that it would be receiving, like 1440*900 for example, which would mean everything goes through the scaler. Yuck.

[Ed Oscuro]

Well, to be slightly more precise: User-selectable image processing will decrease a set's input lag potential, but this is actually not the sole cause of input lag on sets. To make things slightly more confusing, many displays (i.e. computer monitors) have input processing that is laggy but not user-configurable. Even that term "image processing" can lead to some mistaken beliefs (because some image processing is integral to a display's design and can't be switched off, although many panels used in such displays can also be found in other displays with a faster design). Of course, even on displays that are designed for as much speed as possible, the technology itself is responsible for lag (pixels must respond to signals through voltage, hence the pixel response; and image data goes through a multiplexer, rather than being scanned onto the image one pixel at a time as on a CRT).

1440x900 would probably be a PC display, and if you're at the limit of space (as in a laptop) or can't run something full speed on your hardware (again quite likely on laptops, at least older ones), then it could be acceptable. For a television, I would definitely avoid something that isn't 1080p (or maybe 720p if you have a specific use for 720p).

[MarioMania]

CRT last..LCD's won't cheap ass parts

CRT is dime a dozen - if you find a good one

Play Retro Systems on CRT only

[cd\tony2]

I only need 1 hdmi on my tv because everything is in the stereo receiver..can't plug the nes in there though..it doesn't handle upconverting. I have it hooked up to my 60'' led sony..but no stereo sound..can i split the one audio cable with a y-plug? i haven't tried it yet.