PS4 Not Playing Used Games, What Is This Hobby Coming To?

[Leo_A]

You're working from old data and outdated perceptions. PC full-game sales surpassed retail discs in 2010 by a 30% margin.

Hardly

For starters, you completely ignored the fact that a lot of user's are already close to their ISP cap's each month as video streaming grows. And the PC user base for large AAA games is far smaller than the console world and most are downloading large game's at a significantly slower rate. And it's extremely rare to have a PC release sell to a large percentage of your user's so digital sales are more spread out and consistent where as on console's they have to deal with several instances like Halo 4 each year where a game rolls out that quickly sells to an extremely large percentage of your install base. That's something the PC gaming world (The higher end at least versus the more casual heart of it these days) probably hasn't seen since things like Doom 3 and Half-Life 2 rolled out a decade ago.

The strain it's placing on internet infrastructure is far smaller than that what full digital console distribution would place and most of it can be done even with severe ISP capacity constraints. And several major ISP's have actually placed caps for the first time or lowered them in recent years which is also another factor. User's are going backwards with capacity rather than forwards in regards to their internet connection and any hopes that the trend will reverse and take significant steps in the other direction are just hopes that remain to be seen will happen in the near future.

Also, an awful lot of Steam sales and such are small casual titles and older titles that tend to be smaller in size. The ESA survey a year or two ago showed that the percentage of digital sales against physical sales was significantly higher for dollar's than it was by gigabytes distributed. That means that the percentage of those large high value projects reaching PC gamer's via optical disc are significantly higher than the amount of sales by digital and retail. Digital's dominance on things like Skyrim (Assuming that saw an optical disc release...something I can't swear on since I bought the 360 release) isn't nearly at the same level as it is on the smaller more casual products that are increasingly growing more popular on PC's than things like that use to dominate like FPS's, flight simulator's, and RTS games. The stuff more applicable to the console world on PC's still have a large amount of retail sales presence even at this late date.

No matter the debate about how prepared ISP's are right now for this, the fact is that they're not there yet and optical disc are secure for this generation. And I simply don't see optical disc going from likely being on a even footing one generation with digital to being nonexistent the next. Not only do we have the question on just how much progress will take place with internet infrastructure over the next five year's, they also have consumer's and retailer's to deal with.

Both of which are extremely important factor's to consider. Both need to be weened off how things have been gone the past almost 40 years and I see it as highly unlikely that they're essentially going to flip a switch. And such things been predicted before in more limited terms... for instance, several user's here proclaimed that UMD was dead because of the Go and that suddenly they weren't going to be releasing new PSP software on UMD to sell to the 60 million or so UMD equipped PSP's that were out there at the time.

We even had one DP nut that argued on and on about how the PSP Go was a new platform and since console/handheld manufacturer's often don't support the previous generation with new hardware, that something like the Super Nintendo not playing Nintendo cartridges was proof positive that Sony could move onwards with the Go without ever releasing any more software via UMD to cater to the many millions of PSP user's out there that were largely buying their games via UMD.

These companies want to make money. And that seems to point towards increasingly going digital. But they're not so stuck on killing retail releases as quickly as possible that they'd be willing to leave a significant amount of money on the table by doing it prematurely like this nutty DP user thought Sony would do several years ago with the PSP.

Like I said, they want to make money. And for at least a good while longer, that means also releasing your product on optical disc to be sold at retail.

[Bojay1997]

Hardly

For starters, you completely ignored the fact that a lot of user's are already close to their ISP cap's each month as video streaming grows. And the PC user base for large AAA games is far smaller than the console world and most are downloading large game's at a significantly slower rate. And it's extremely rare to have a PC release sell to a large percentage of your user's so digital sales are more spread out and consistent where as on console's they have to deal with several instances like Halo 4 each year where a game rolls out that quickly sells to an extremely large percentage of your install base. That's something the PC gaming world (The higher end at least versus the more casual heart of it these days) probably hasn't seen since things like Doom 3 and Half-Life 2 rolled out a decade ago.

The strain it's placing on internet infrastructure is far smaller than that what full digital console distribution would place and most of it can be done even with severe ISP capacity constraints. And several major ISP's have actually placed caps for the first time or lowered them in recent years which is also another factor. User's are going backwards with capacity rather than forwards in regards to their internet connection and any hopes that the trend will reverse and take significant steps in the other direction are just hopes that remain to be seen will happen in the near future.

Also, an awful lot of Steam sales and such are small casual titles and older titles that tend to be smaller in size. The ESA survey a year or two ago showed that the percentage of digital sales against physical sales was significantly higher for dollar's than it was by gigabytes distributed. That means that the percentage of those large high value projects reaching PC gamer's via optical disc are significantly higher than the amount of sales by digital and retail. Digital's dominance on things like Skyrim (Assuming that saw an optical disc release...something I can't swear on since I bought the 360 release) isn't nearly at the same level as it is on the smaller more casual products that are increasingly growing more popular on PC's than things like that use to dominate like FPS's, flight simulator's, and RTS games. The stuff more applicable to the console world on PC's still have a large amount of retail sales presence even at this late date.

No matter the debate about how prepared ISP's are right now for this, the fact is that they're not there yet and optical disc are secure for this generation. And I simply don't see optical disc going from likely being on a even footing one generation with digital to being nonexistent the next. Not only do we have the question on just how much progress will take place with internet infrastructure over the next five year's, they also have consumer's and retailer's to deal with.

Both of which are extremely important factor's to consider. Both need to be weened off how things have been gone the past almost 40 years and I see it as highly unlikely that they're essentially going to flip a switch. And such things been predicted before in more limited terms... for instance, several user's here proclaimed that UMD was dead because of the Go and that suddenly they weren't going to be releasing new PSP software on UMD to sell to the 60 million or so UMD equipped PSP's that were out there at the time.

We even had one DP nut that argued on and on about how the PSP Go was a new platform and since console/handheld manufacturer's often don't support the previous generation with new hardware, that something like the Super Nintendo not playing Nintendo cartridges was proof positive that Sony could move onwards with the Go without ever releasing any more software via UMD to cater to the many millions of PSP user's out there that were largely buying their games via UMD.

These companies want to make money. And that seems to point towards increasingly going digital. But they're not so stuck on killing retail releases as quickly as possible that they'd be willing to leave a significant amount of money on the table by doing it prematurely like this nutty DP user thought Sony would do several years ago with the PSP.

Like I said, they want to make money. And for at least a good while longer, that means also releasing your product on optical disc to be sold at retail.

While you raise some interesting points, those are the same arguments people made about why NetFlix streaming could never be a commercial success. In fact it has become a massive success. The reality is that servers and routers are cheaper than they ever have been. Cable companies and phone companies already have much of the infrastructure in place to ramp up broadband bandwidth significantly. In fact, in many large urban areas, you can already get substantially faster broadband through FIOS and other services for not much more per month. You also have to use a ton of bandwidth to hit your cap. I have many friends who watch a NetFlix movie every night and have never been warned about a cap. The people I have heard of hitting the cap are people who don't have cable and use their broadband to constantly stream media of all sorts 8-10 hours a day. That's not the average user or even the average gamer. Moreover, a full game download wouldn't be a daily event, it would be something you would do a few times a month at most.

I agree with you that optical discs will be part of the PS4/Xbox 720 generation. It's the following generation which I think will be closer to 5-6 years from now that will likely either be console free or disc free as there will be no viable business reason to include an optical drive just like there is no longer a reason to include an optical drive on the Macbook Pro, iMac or iPad.

[Leo_A]

You really didn't have to quote that whole thing, you know. :)

You seem to think I'm suggesting that going all digital is a non option for the future. While I'm not 100% sure we're going to go down that route in a few generation's, I'm nearly sure we're going to (And at the very least, digital will become the dominant form of distribution). And certainly the infrastructure to support it is going to happen and is certainly growing and moving towards that direction as we speak. As for video streaming being proof, I'd certainly agree and never was claiming that technology had or was going to cease progressing.

It wasn't terribly long ago where the infrastructure to support something like Netflix really wasn't in place so the opponents just a few short years ago, while correct for the time, were certainly terribly incorrect if they were claiming 5 or 10 years down the road that it wasn't realistic on a widespread basis. I simply don't think we're going to be there at that point for 100% digital console distribution in five years.

If anything, it's going to be like video steaming is now where there's still an awful lot of cable and satellite subscribers, plenty of OTA television viewer's, and DVD and Blu-Ray are still significant factors in the marketplace and look set to be for years to come (Despite people claiming then and now that television viewing will shift towards all streaming). I don't think the infrastructure will be quite there a generation from now for console manufacturer's to leave retail distribution behind. And I particularly don't think that their retail chain or consumer's themselves will be ready to leave optical drives and physical media behind in such a short time.

If by some odd quirk we remember this thread a half decade or more from now, my money is on at least one more generation where physical media holds a role not unlike what digital has on over the past half decade on the three current generation console's (Particularly on the 360 and PS3). We'll see who was right then.

As for computer's, those eschewing an optical drive are a tiny minority of the marketplace and something like the MacBook Pro is hardly representative of the marketplace now or in the near future (And I don't know sure what a iMac is, but I'd hardly classify an iPad as a PC). It's certainly a viable option these days and something that will increase in the coming years. But we're a heck of a way away from optical computer drives joining 3.5" floppy drives. Some expensive high end product like the MacBook Pro is hardly a sign that optical disc drives in computer's are at death's door. Heck, it doesn't even have a HD but instead is utilizing expensive SSD's drives that cost far more per GB of storage space than the most modern HD.

Hardly representative of the average laptop out there now or the average laptop that will be sold the next few years. It's the PSP Go of the computer world jumping in at the early stages when leaving optical drives behind and utilizing SSD's has become an option but hardly a sign of an imminent trend in that direction.

[Rob2600]

I don't know for sure what a iMac is

Seriously?

[Daria]

Leo_A: I've been doing a lot of PC shopping lately. Admittedly mostly tablet-laptops but finding one with an optical drive has been a distinct rarity. CD/DVDs are going the way of the floppy it seems.

[G-Boobie]

Also, an awful lot of Steam sales and such are small casual titles and older titles that tend to be smaller in size. The ESA survey a year or two ago showed that the percentage of digital sales against physical sales was significantly higher for dollar's than it was by gigabytes distributed. That means that the percentage of those large high value projects reaching PC gamer's via optical disc are significantly higher than the amount of sales by digital and retail. Digital's dominance on things like Skyrim (Assuming that saw an optical disc release...something I can't swear on since I bought the 360 release) isn't nearly at the same level as it is on the smaller more casual products that are increasingly growing more popular on PC's than things like that use to dominate like FPS's, flight simulator's, and RTS games. The stuff more applicable to the console world on PC's still have a large amount of retail sales presence even at this late date.

You are incorrect.

If you were to check the "top sellers" tab on Steam at any point in time, and especially during their sale events, nearly all of the top one hundred sellers will be "hardcore" games, and most of them are also what you'd consider "Triple A". These games are usually in the realm of five gigabytes and up; it hasn't affected sales, and it hasn't affected installs. Here's a fun fact for you; if you were to find a copy of any boxed PC game on a shelf that wasn't produced by Blizzard, do you know what you'll find in the manual slot? A Steam code.

A quick look at the top sellers tab at this very moment has Far Cry 3, a nine and a half gigabyte game, at the very top, with ARMA II, Black Ops II, and Skyrim right behind it. All of those with the exception of ARMA are available on consoles. Dishonored and XCom made their money on PC; they didn't do nearly as well on the consoles, at least according to their respective publishers. I think that bandwidth caps effect people far less than you think, though of course they're ridiculous things that need to go away.

One wonders whether or not you've been on Steam lately. Or have heard of iTunes, Amazon Video, Hulu, Spotify, Rhapsody, and all the other services that have been quietly undermining the physical media space. There's a reason that Best Buy (or whatever your local equivalent is) carries far, far fewer movies and CDs than they did even five years ago. You'll see the games section go that same way pretty soon.

We'll have optical drives on the upcoming generation of consoles, and that will be the last time. It doesn't make sense financially to keep physical copies around; not from a manufacturing overhead standpoint, not from a used sales standpoint, and not from a re-selling standpoint. The bandwidth is there, whether the ISPs want to admit it or not. This has ALREADY HAPPENED with music, it's happening very quickly with movies and television. Games will be no exception.

[Leo_A]

Seriously?

I thought it was those odd looking colored Apple computers that were integrated into their monitor from the late 1990's.

So nope, I'm really not sure what product it's specifically in reference to since it surely can't be something from 15 years ago.

I'm really not an Apple fan.


Leo_A: I've been doing a lot of PC shopping lately. Admittedly mostly tablet-laptops but finding one with an optical drive has been a distinct rarity. CD/DVDs are going the way of the floppy it seems.

Wasn't it always a rarity for a tablet-laptop to have an optical drive? That's one of the common eliminations to get the size and cost down as low as possible.

With actual full size laptops, optical drives sure still seem like standard equipment rather than an optional addition. Just bought one a couple of months ago and did a lot of shopping around with companies like HP and didn't notice any great shift in that area.

Not that I'm saying my word is the definitive overview of the industry, but that's what my experience as a consumer was just weeks ago.


You are incorrect.

If you were to check the "top sellers" tab on Steam at any point in time, and especially during their sale events, nearly all of the top one hundred sellers will be "hardcore" games, and most of them are also what you'd consider "Triple A".

I don't see why this proves that I'm incorrect.

While what I saw wasn't Steam specific and was instead about digital PC distribution as a whole, I suspect it just proves that there's a heck of a lot of consumer dollar's going into Steam and similar services spread across a wide range of casual titles where as the "hardcore" traditional segment is spread across a smaller range of high value titles.

Like I said, the ESA claims that the percentage of dollars spent digitally versus at retail in the PC world is significantly higher than the percentage of the actual GB amount of PC gaming content being distributed online compared to retail.

There must be some explanation for that and while I can't say with 100% confidence that there's no other possible reason behind what they noticed, the only thing I can think of at least is that a consumer is somewhat more inclined to still buy the latest $50 release still on optical disc than they are to buy something on disc that would cost $20, $10, or less just to download.



One wonders whether or not you've been on Steam lately. Or have heard of iTunes, Amazon Video, Hulu, Spotify, Rhapsody, and all the other services that have been quietly undermining the physical media space. There's a reason that Best Buy (or whatever your local equivalent is) carries far, far fewer movies and CDs than they did even five years ago. You'll see the games section go that same way pretty soon.

One wonder's what this has to do with if console's have 5 years left of optical drives or more.

Considering I've been regularly downloading things to console's and handheld's since the original Xbox (Look up my Xbox Live profile for instance and you'd see that XBLA games represent the bulk of my playtime on my 360 over the past six years... hardly a sign that I'm as behind the times as you're making me out to be). Heck, I even have dozens of videos I've bought off the 360's video marketplace and several on my PS3. And I'm regularly on Steam and have all but been buying PC releases exclusively via digital means for years, have a good bit of video content on iTunes and Amazon, was a user of Hulu watching the classic tv shows they had available like The Donna Reed Show several years before they went to a subscriber model, have bought only a couple of music CD's in the past 5 years (Sticking with MP3's almost exclusively), and that I'm an avid viewer of classic tv shows and movies on DVD/HDDVD/Blu-Ray and have watched as that content and other genres have made a retreat from retail over the last half decade (Much of what I buy are in fact not even available at retail and instead are released through programs like Shout Select and various MOD services from companies like WB... and most of my "retail" releases end up having to be bought from Amazon since retailer selection's are so weak these days). So I assure you that I'm quite aware of the shift that's underway.

About the only thing I haven't done is Netflix and that's because their classic movie and tv selection is relatively small every time I've ever looked around it and much of what they do have of interest to me already resides on my DVD/Blu-Ray shelving (And Turner Classic Movies and MeTV on cable and YouTube uploads take up the slack when I don't want to pop a disc in or watch one of the many video download's I've bought). I remember a year ago or so when a friend and his wife that loves classic movies asked me for some suggestions as they tried to decide what to watch on Netflix. I think I went through at least a dozen excellent movies that were very popular at release and have seen perennial television airings since then before they came across one that was actually available. When things like The Pride of the Yankee's is unavailable (The one that sticks out in my mind), their selection isn't too hot for the classic movie category from Hollywood's Golden Age.

Not that it was even relevant to anything that I said. Debating the timeline for console's switching to 100% digital distribution is hardly being in some denial in my own personal LaLaLand like you tried to portray it as. I concede that the shift is happening and never said anything that said it wasn't.

I merely don't think we just have a single generation left of it. I'm all but certain that at least a couple of console's 5-8 years down the road will retain an optical drive and still be experiencing retail releases of software via optical discs in a manner not unlike the role digital has played on the 360 and PS3 this generation where it has represented an important secondary form of distribution. You do realize that digital distribution is still very much a secondary form of distribution on console's today? Why do you think it will likely be on a more even footing this coming generation and then they're going to flip a switch and tell 50% of their business that we're not doing it this way anymore?

Nope, they're weening everyone off the traditional way of doing business and that means time and making the shift be gradual to ease everyone into it. It's not going to be a flip of a switch.

[Gameguy]

I thought it was those odd looking colored Apple computers that were integrated into their monitor from the late 1990's.

So nope, I'm really not sure what product it's specifically in reference to since it surely can't be something from 15 years ago.

I'm really not an Apple fan.
They're all called iMacs now, they just kept making new versions of them. It's their brand of desktop computers. It's like the Nintendo GameBoy, there's several versions of them within the product line.

[Rickstilwell1]

You are incorrect.

If you were to check the "top sellers" tab on Steam at any point in time, and especially during their sale events, nearly all of the top one hundred sellers will be "hardcore" games, and most of them are also what you'd consider "Triple A". These games are usually in the realm of five gigabytes and up; it hasn't affected sales, and it hasn't affected installs. Here's a fun fact for you; if you were to find a copy of any boxed PC game on a shelf that wasn't produced by Blizzard, do you know what you'll find in the manual slot? A Steam code.

A quick look at the top sellers tab at this very moment has Far Cry 3, a nine and a half gigabyte game, at the very top, with ARMA II, Black Ops II, and Skyrim right behind it. All of those with the exception of ARMA are available on consoles. Dishonored and XCom made their money on PC; they didn't do nearly as well on the consoles, at least according to their respective publishers. I think that bandwidth caps effect people far less than you think, though of course they're ridiculous things that need to go away.

One wonders whether or not you've been on Steam lately. Or have heard of iTunes, Amazon Video, Hulu, Spotify, Rhapsody, and all the other services that have been quietly undermining the physical media space. There's a reason that Best Buy (or whatever your local equivalent is) carries far, far fewer movies and CDs than they did even five years ago. You'll see the games section go that same way pretty soon.

We'll have optical drives on the upcoming generation of consoles, and that will be the last time. It doesn't make sense financially to keep physical copies around; not from a manufacturing overhead standpoint, not from a used sales standpoint, and not from a re-selling standpoint. The bandwidth is there, whether the ISPs want to admit it or not. This has ALREADY HAPPENED with music, it's happening very quickly with movies and television. Games will be no exception.

Popular music artists have even been choosing to not bother with disc based releases either for a while now. MC Ren released a new album way back in 2009 and it still hasn't seen a physical release. Shaggy's 2011 albums don't have physical releases either. Billy Corgan decided the majority of his Smashing Pumpkins releases will also be digital only and free as he makes them (Oceania being an exception because the music fit together so well in his opinion) So there's a couple examples.

[G-Boobie]

Popular music artists have even been choosing to not bother with disc based releases either for a while now. MC Ren released a new album way back in 2009 and it still hasn't seen a physical release. Shaggy's 2011 albums don't have physical releases either. Billy Corgan decided the majority of his Smashing Pumpkins releases will also be digital only and free as he makes them (Oceania being an exception because the music fit together so well in his opinion) So there's a couple examples.

Yup. We'll have optical drives in the upcoming generation of consoles, and that will be the end of it. After that, assuming there is another generation, it's digital distribution all the way. Music is already there, movies and television are on their way; there's no reason at all that games won't go there, too. They've already started.

Bandwidth caps are a joke. I supposedly have a 250 gb cap every month, and I don't think I've ever used less than 400 gb. I've never been charged an extra dime, and I probably never will.

[Rickstilwell1]

Yup. We'll have optical drives in the upcoming generation of consoles, and that will be the end of it. After that, assuming there is another generation, it's digital distribution all the way. Music is already there, movies and television are on their way; there's no reason at all that games won't go there, too. They've already started.

Bandwidth caps are a joke. I supposedly have a 250 gb cap every month, and I don't think I've ever used less than 400 gb. I've never been charged an extra dime, and I probably never will.

I have 15MBps DSL with Century Link at my apartment and they don't have bandwidth caps. I'm always uploading and downloading torrents at Underground Gamer to build my rep there. I'm aiming for Elite status. 48 more GB to go! All I am actually seeding that people constantly download are the PS1 demo discs but they must be in pretty high demand if I'm still getting points.

[Leo_A]

Music is already there, movies and television are on their way; there's no reason at all that games won't go there, too. They've already started.

Physical media is still a very significant factor in music and home television viewing.

[Melf]

I seriously want no part of a gaming industry that is all-download. I like to have my property in my hands, not on a drive that may not be compatible with the next generation of hardware. PS5 die and take all your games with it? Just download them again! Oh wait, they're not available on the PS6. Too bad for you!

No one, NO ONE can tell me that we'll definitely have permanent access to purchased downloaded content on a platform after it is discontinued. I also have no faith AT ALL in the industry when it says we will. Remember when CD games would be cheaper than carts because they cost less to make? Remember when digital releases would be cheaper than discs because there were no manufacturing, distribution or retail costs? Yeah.

[Leo_A]

I don't think anyone is saying that any DLC will remain available indefinitely.

[Melf]

That's the problem. If this industry goes entirely digital, what's it going to be like 30 years from now? People will have to rebuy games in patchwork collections, and not all games will get rereleases (good luck getting a rerelease of licensed titles). No flea market buys, no trading with friends, no eBay purchases.

I want no part of an industry like that.

[Robocop2]

That's the problem. If this industry goes entirely digital, what's it going to be like 30 years from now? People will have to rebuy games in patchwork collections, and not all games will get rereleases (good luck getting a rerelease of licensed titles). No flea market buys, no trading with friends, no eBay purchases.

I want no part of an industry like that.

Sadly; I dont really think the folks in Corporate really care about the second hand market especially 10+ years down the line. What money does that make them? As a lover of old things it makes me sad but the reality is in the modern age its all too easy to actually do this. Do you really think that back in the 90's if Nintendo and Sega could have created a system whereby you had to buy a game new to play it and only on your own individual system they would have not done it? No company is a saint nor cares about old franchises/games (unless they can milk it in the future in some way that is) It doesn't make me enjoy their games any less but it is the truth.

The tech exists now and that is why it's going to happen eventually. That having been said; preventing the ability to play used games won't bring back supposed lost profits that the poor developers are experiencing. Making fewer shitty games with million dollar plus budgets might help that problem. Of course as the tech evolves I guess costs are only going to go up for production of any game.

Incidentally; did I miss the news that this is actually going to be a feature of the PS4?

[kedawa]

Remember when CD games would be cheaper than carts because they cost less to make?I remember this quite clearly. Sega CD games were far cheaper than Genesis games, and I would say on average, I payed about half as much for new PSX games as I did for N64 games. Prices have come down. I can't say the same for movies and music. All the savings that resulted from the move to optical media were absorbed by greedy cartels.

Remember when digital releases would be cheaper than discs because there were no manufacturing, distribution or retail costs?
That's largely been the case for digital downloads on Windows. Stuff is reasonably priced, and it goes on sale frequently. That doesn't happen on consoles right now. I don't know if it's because of the platform holder's greed and monopoly over DD on their respective consoles, or if it's just a tactic to stay friendly with B&M chains, but it won't last in the face of competition.

[Rickstilwell1]

That's the problem. If this industry goes entirely digital, what's it going to be like 30 years from now? People will have to rebuy games in patchwork collections, and not all games will get rereleases (good luck getting a rerelease of licensed titles). No flea market buys, no trading with friends, no eBay purchases.

I want no part of an industry like that.

It's all like what if people started trading Wii, Wii U, Xbox 360 and PS3 systems on craigslist and ebay to play each other's discontinued digital download games. "I'll trade you my PS3 with Sonic 4 Episodes I & II downloaded for yours with Vandal-Hearts: Flames of Judgment" -> "No way pal; unless you've got an RPG on yours"

Or scenario 2 - the crazy ebay listing:

Xbox 360 with 100 XBLA games downloaded system cost + $200 (hey I had to pay for each of these digital titles so you have to as well). If digital titles were hard enough to find and unable to be backed up/pirated, I could see systems with certain ones becoming valuable to some. In the short term with what current systems we have, all being hackable I don't see it yet. Somebody must have backed up all the games that have been pulled from the online stores right?

[Gameguy]

Do you really think that back in the 90's if Nintendo and Sega could have created a system whereby you had to buy a game new to play it and only on your own individual system they would have not done it?
In a way they tried. So many games and bonus content are gone forever. There's also the Satellaview but at least with that you could save the game to a cartridge, and potentially sell that to someone else.


http://i48.tinypic.com/2mchap5.jpg

[Melf]

Sadly; I dont really think the folks in Corporate really care about the second hand market especially 10+ years down the line. What money does that make them? As a lover of old things it makes me sad but the reality is in the modern age its all too easy to actually do this.

I care as much for corporate as they care for consumers. They're going to do what's best for their bottom line; I'm going to do what interests me. That's where our paths will diverge, and that's where I'll quit modern gaming.


Do you really think that back in the 90's if Nintendo and Sega could have created a system whereby you had to buy a game new to play it and only on your own individual system they would have not done it?

They tried what they could at the time, such as Sega giving certain games only to Sega Channel subscribers and Nintendo trying to stop Blockbuster and other chains from renting games. They failed. It won't be so simple when everything comes directly from their servers. You get what they want you to get and no more, and you'll end up having to rebuy certain games multiple times if your hardware dies, and most licensed games won't be available at all. It's not the same as just grabbing another NES off eBay or a garage sale if yours dies. If your PS5 or Xbox 1440 dies with all your games on it after it's been discontinued, how do you get them back?


No company is a saint nor cares about old franchises/games (unless they can milk it in the future in some way that is) It doesn't make me enjoy their games any less but it is the truth.

That's the point. It's possible that eventually you WON'T be able to enjoy them because you won't have access to all of them. I want no part of an industry like that.

[G-Boobie]

Physical media is still a very significant factor in music and home television viewing.

Yes, but for how long? Not long.

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/download-music-streaming-digital-revenue-362799
http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2012/jan/06/downloads-physical-sales-us
http://arstechnica.com/business/2012/08/spotify-and-pandora-to-help-digital-music-overtake-physical-in-2012/

It's all downhill for physical sales from here on out. Television and film are experiencing a similar transition.

There's a lot of "I'LL QUIT FOREVER" hyperbole involved with the hardest of cores in all areas of media, but we all know it's bullshit. "I won't listen to AAC format music, it's not as good as vinyl!" - Sent from my iPhone or iPod touch. "Downloadable games are the devil, they'll never replace discs in my heart!" - a guy with fifty XBL games on his hard drive, or a big fat Steam account. "You'll NEVER take away my Blu-Ray!" - a guy with a Netflix account on which he watched the entirety of Breaking Bad.

I'm sure some of you guys are serious about it, but you're outliers, and as Robocop pointed out, outliers are not the concern of the corporate office. By taking music sales to the digital format, Apple has increased it's stock value to a point where a single stock is worth more than the average american brings home in a week, before taxes. Steam, a closed system where transfer of purchased and redeemed titles is impossible, is worth more per employee than Apple, though they're privately owned and therefore attract less attention. Amazon has arguably saved it's business with the Kindle, another closed system for reading eBooks: they've attracted direct competition from Barnes & Noble with the Nook, while Apple and Google have made a lot of noise about the eReader capabilities of their tablets.

There are good reasons why this is inevitable. Costs for the manufacture of physical media are entirely eliminated by putting a file on a server somewhere. Costs to transport and distribute are entirely removed, and the middleman cut that retailers get is no longer an issue. The data you submit when you open an account or make a purchase allow companies to market to you more effectively, and give insights as to what future products might do well. Less overhead, more information, higher profit margins? Done and done!

Most of you will grumble and fork over your money regardless. A small, tiny percentage will actually quit, and that's OK in the eyes of the these companies: all your kids will be entering adulthood soon enough, and they've never known physical media; they don't have CD collections, and the DVDs they have are rare and limited to absolute favorites. All their media is on a hard drive, and they like it that way. Getting their games that way won't bother them.

Some think that's a bleak future, but whatever. It's not. You don't technically own the games sitting on your shelves, as the legal garbage in the licensing agreement will happily point out if you were to read it. I have close to two hundred games on Steam, and while I've paid full price for a few of them, most were obtained on heavy discount during their frequent sales. There's not much difference between buying Space Marine on Steam for ten bucks, and buying it for ten bucks in the clearance bin at Target, except you didn't spend the gas money to drive to Target. Microsoft, Sony and Nintendo haven't quite figured that out yet, but they will.

I have a sizable collection of physical games, and I like having them there on the shelf, but realistically a huge shelf of games isn't much different from a list on a client. I'm probably not going to play most of either stack.

[Frankie_Says_Relax]

Yes, but for how long? Not long.

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/download-music-streaming-digital-revenue-362799
http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2012/jan/06/downloads-physical-sales-us
http://arstechnica.com/business/2012/08/spotify-and-pandora-to-help-digital-music-overtake-physical-in-2012/

It's all downhill for physical sales from here on out. Television and film are experiencing a similar transition.

There's a lot of "I'LL QUIT FOREVER" hyperbole involved with the hardest of cores in all areas of media, but we all know it's bullshit. "I won't listen to AAC format music, it's not as good as vinyl!" - Sent from my iPhone or iPod touch. "Downloadable games are the devil, they'll never replace discs in my heart!" - a guy with fifty XBL games on his hard drive, or a big fat Steam account. "You'll NEVER take away my Blu-Ray!" - a guy with a Netflix account on which he watched the entirety of Breaking Bad.

I'm sure some of you guys are serious about it, but you're outliers, and as Robocop pointed out, outliers are not the concern of the corporate office. By taking music sales to the digital format, Apple has increased it's stock value to a point where a single stock is worth more than the average american brings home in a week, before taxes. Steam, a closed system where transfer of purchased and redeemed titles is impossible, is worth more per employee than Apple, though they're privately owned and therefore attract less attention. Amazon has arguably saved it's business with the Kindle, another closed system for reading eBooks: they've attracted direct competition from Barnes & Noble with the Nook, while Apple and Google have made a lot of noise about the eReader capabilities of their tablets.

There are good reasons why this is inevitable. Costs for the manufacture of physical media are entirely eliminated by putting a file on a server somewhere. Costs to transport and distribute are entirely removed, and the middleman cut that retailers get is no longer an issue. The data you submit when you open an account or make a purchase allow companies to market to you more effectively, and give insights as to what future products might do well. Less overhead, more information, higher profit margins? Done and done!

Most of you will grumble and fork over your money regardless. A small, tiny percentage will actually quit, and that's OK in the eyes of the these companies: all your kids will be entering adulthood soon enough, and they've never known physical media; they don't have CD collections, and the DVDs they have are rare and limited to absolute favorites. All their media is on a hard drive, and they like it that way. Getting their games that way won't bother them.

Some think that's a bleak future, but whatever. It's not. You don't technically own the games sitting on your shelves, as the legal garbage in the licensing agreement will happily point out if you were to read it. I have close to two hundred games on Steam, and while I've paid full price for a few of them, most were obtained on heavy discount during their frequent sales. There's not much difference between buying Space Marine on Steam for ten bucks, and buying it for ten bucks in the clearance bin at Target, except you didn't spend the gas money to drive to Target. Microsoft, Sony and Nintendo haven't quite figured that out yet, but they will.

I have a sizable collection of physical games, and I like having them there on the shelf, but realistically a huge shelf of games isn't much different from a list on a client. I'm probably not going to play most of either stack.

This. So much this. A million times this.

[Rob2600]

Remember when CD games would be cheaper than carts because they cost less to make? ... Yeah.

I remember this quite clearly. ...I would say on average, I payed about half as much for new PSX games as I did for N64 games.

I worked at EB in northern NJ during the PlayStation and N64 era. Major new releases for the N64 were $50-$60 (Ocarina of Time, Beetle Adventure Racing, Turok 2, Tony Hawk's Pro Skater, WWF No Mercy, etc.). Major new releases for the PlayStation were $40-$50 (Metal Gear Solid, Tomb Raider II, Quake II, Bushido Blade, Tekken 3, etc.). Not exactly half the price.

In most cases, major new releases were $10 more on the N64 vs the PlayStation.

And if your local store charged more than $60 for N64 games, they ripped you off.

[megasdkirby]

This. So much this. A million times this.

Agreed.

With piracy, what is there not to like about digital games? It's not all gloom and doom, folks. Piracy will open the doors to untold possibilities and will keep gaming alive.

A few years from now, when a great game that was only released digitally becomes impossible to find (because there will be no "physical" backup), some kind-hearted pirate/hacker will have surely "dumped" the game for all of us to enjoy, wherever and whenever.

Bless those who pirate and hack games for others to enjoy. It will be a great era when it comes to fruition...and less expensive too!

They are are TRUE heroes!

...

Ok, so I am being an asshole on purpose. What is sad that, even while trolling, I'm being serious. Many, if not all, of the titles that will be "digital only" will eventually no longer be distributed by said means. How are those games going to be played 10, 20 years from now? Through pirated means.

The irony.

[Leo_A]

I don't know why people are replying to me as if I said we're not moving towards a digital future...

I'm in agreement, folks, and have been since my first post in this thread as well as similar threads for probably half a decade now. There's no need to convince me of it. ;)


Yes, but for how long? Not long.

Considering digital sales of music just overtook retail sales yet people are acting like it's some sort of example of an industry that has moved to 100% digital distribution that proves where console videogaming will be in a generation's time, I'd say longer than you think.

Retail music sales are still significant and are unlikely to become an insignificant force in the marketplace anytime soon (CD's have many years left before they become specialty products like record's), Blu-Ray is still growing every year (And are about the only source at home for things like native 1080p video and lossless audio), and DVD is still huge even though it has been on the downward slope for about 4 or 5 years now.

DVD reached such a level of success that it's going to be able to ride this downward slope at the end of the product life cycle for a long time to come before becoming insignificant. And even after it has largely left retail stores, I imagine it will still be fairly big business. Many publishers already are having success with the format with online sales including many titles and release programs that are online exclusives. Many a commercial DVD never reaches store shelves these days yet sales are still very healthy since consumer's are instead buying much of their DVD content via online retailers like Amazon these days.


It's all downhill for physical sales from here on out. Television and film are experiencing a similar transition.

No matter the positives or negatives, digital is the wave of the future. But I still say some of you are writing the obituary for physical media prematurely. I remember a thread here a good half decade ago or so that proclaimed that newspapers would be dead in five years and all of the DP experts were coming out of the woodwork claiming it was all but fact.

Yet it's still hanging on, it's still big business, and it's still trying hard to compete despite a constant and significant decline. Even if there's no hope for the ultimate survival of printed news on paper, the DP experts were a heck of a way off and we at the very least have years left before the industry takes its final breath where paper distribution of the news is concerned.


There are good reasons why this is inevitable. Costs for the manufacture of physical media are entirely eliminated by putting a file on a server somewhere.

And you also have what I've stated in this thread earlier. A handful of days of booming business each year with the vast majority of the rest of the year likely barely utilizing 10% of your network infrastructure for digital distribution.

That's a pretty hefty expense to have sitting around almost idle most of the year just to support things like the launch of a Halo release, a few days around Christmas, etc.


Some think that's a bleak future, but whatever. It's not.

Then apparently you're very much a Digital Press "outlier".

For the people that enjoy playing the game's of the past, want to maintain and enjoy collection's of them indefinitely, and for those that want to add new games to their collections even if it was released 20, 30, or more years ago, it sure as heck sucks.

If you're there just for the moment and you're perfectly content never revisiting older games or discovering new games that slipped by you when they were having their moment in the sun, I can see why you're just fine with the direction we're going and don't see any problems with it.

But don't act like it's some sort of fact that it's not a "bleak future" for some since for the classic gamer's, it's exactly that. And the same for books, journals, and so on for segments of the population

Here's a couple of excellent post I read just a few days ago about some of the problems being experienced with the transition to digital at our nation's libraries.

http://newsearch.boatnerd.com/viewtopic.php?p=48225#p48225

http://newsearch.boatnerd.com/viewtopic.php?p=48317#p48317

Digital can be a great thing but it certainly still has its pitfalls in many different ways.


And if your local store charged more than $60 for N64 games, they ripped you off.

If you never paid more than $60 for a N64 game, you either weren't buying games during the first year or so the platform was out or your region was extremely lucky for some reason to avoid it. $79.99 was all but a standard price point for Nintendo 64 games here for at least through 1997 at retailers like Wal-Mart, Electronic Boutique, K-Mart, Sears, and elsewhere. Of course I can't vouch that it was the standard everywhere, but it certainly was extremely common. Circular's for national chains at the time, reading IGN64 (Back when IGN wasn't the joke that it has become over the past 12 or so years), and the memories of many people suggest that $80 prices for N64 releases were widespread for a time.

From my memories, it wasn't until 1998 or so that N64 gamer's stopped being ripped off with new releases (If you can call $60 not being ripped off when many top of the line PS releases could be had for $40 and would quickly go on sale) and we finally started to get some price reductions with older software.


Agreed.

With piracy, what is there not to like about digital games? It's not all gloom and doom, folks. Piracy will open the doors to untold possibilities and will keep gaming alive.

A few years from now, when a great game that was only released digitally becomes impossible to find (because there will be no "physical" backup), some kind-hearted pirate/hacker will have surely "dumped" the game for all of us to enjoy, wherever and whenever.

Bless those who pirate and hack games for others to enjoy. It will be a great era when it comes to fruition...and less expensive too!

They are are TRUE heroes!

...

Ok, so I am being an asshole on purpose. What is sad that, even while trolling, I'm being serious. Many, if not all, of the titles that will be "digital only" will eventually no longer be distributed by said means. How are those games going to be played 10, 20 years from now? Through pirated means.

The irony.

At least you seem able to recognize this. And not only is it a sucky hope for the future, it's far from a guarantee. Complexity is exponetially with every console generation and DRM is growing ever more restrictive as time goes by. Things like emulation (Which even if it happens, it will be many years before it reaches the point of even being semi playable), hackers throwing the doors open like has happened on the original Xbox, and so on are hardly guarantees with future platforms.

Imagine if the OnLive proponents end up being correct. We won't even have that hope since the only thing entering our home's would be a video stream.

[Greg2600]

How will digital only games be playable if the games rely on code which resides on corporate servers? I've been down this road before. I was player of EA's Need for Speed Motor City Online, which barely lasted a year I think. We all had game CD's, which became coasters after EA pulled the service we were paying for, and dropped the servers. They refused to release anything to public domain, and the game because useless.

[G-Boobie]

LeoA, I have and love plenty of classic games and systems, but just because something is physical doesn't mean it's eternal. Just this year, I ended up with a Saturn that died and needed extensive work to resurrect, and I've dealt with trying to find a replacement monitor for an arcade machine; a huge pain in the ass. CRT televisions are no longer produced, so hold on to the ones you have, and disc rot is rare, but does happen. Stuff decomposes, end of story. If it exists as raw data on people's hard drives, it's at least simple to replace. Just torrent it again. And yes, data gets corrupted or lost, but that's reality. Nothing lasts forever.

Emulation, and digital storage, is the only real way to preserve this stuff long term. I like my discs and carts as much as the next guy, but lets be realistic about it.

That's as much as I'm willing to type on my phone. More when I get home.

[Leo_A]

LeoA, I have and love plenty of classic games and systems, but just because something is physical doesn't mean it's eternal.

Nobody ever said that anything was. So I'm not sure what your point is.


How will digital only games be playable if the games rely on code which resides on corporate servers?

Nobody ever said that they would be. Hence why the vague "hope" that even some digital streaming proponents put forward elsewhere that claim that even classic gamer's will be able to be satisfied in the future via emulation and hacking is nonsense. If important element's of the code exist elsewhere (The server information for Motor City Online, for instance) or the entire game itself is just video steamed to you such as the OnLive model, the opporunity for the gamer to archive, preserve, and make that material available later via the internet will be impossible.

Taking it a step forward, look at how well companies have traditionally archive their material. The situation very well could arise where game's from just a few year's earlier simply don't even exist any longer while thanks to gamer's, you can log online and find entire romsets for console's released many decade's earlier. If the future arrives and it ends up being video streaming, I see no way around game's quickly and routinely becoming lost to time.

Imagine what would exist for the Atari 2600 today if somehow the technology to stream video while sending your control inputs out to a central server had somehow been possible. Beyond a tiny bit of source code kept by the occasional programmer, that material would be almost universally lost today. Yet that's the direction we're heading towards now.

It happens today even with an industry that has been around for decades now and has grown to enjoy a fair amount of stability (At least with larger and more established firm's). For instance, there's plenty of comments out there directly from Sega employees about source code from even semi recent projects that don't appear to exist any longer. The final source code for Okami wasn't archived by Capcom for another example and caused great pain's when the decision to port it elsewhere was later made. The final source code for Silent Hill 2 wasn't able to be located by Konami recently and appears to be much of the reason why the HD port of it was so flawed beyond the stuttering itself which was just sucky programming (Apparently they had to port over an incomplete earlier version of the project since that's all that Konami had). And that's just some examples off hand that the public has become aware of via interviews and such.

If digital is the future, I hope it isn't streaming. Gamer's themselves have largely been responsible for the preservation of the past for this industry so far and if they're taken out of the picture via a shift towards video streaming, much will be quickly lost going forward.

[G-Boobie]

Nobody ever said that anything was. So I'm not sure what your point is.

You certainly seemed to intimate it. See the quote below. You wacky funster.




For the people that enjoy playing the game's of the past, want to maintain and enjoy collection's of them indefinitely, and for those that want to add new games to their collections even if it was released 20, 30, or more years ago, it sure as heck sucks.

If you're there just for the moment and you're perfectly content never revisiting older games or discovering new games that slipped by you when they were having their moment in the sun, I can see why you're just fine with the direction we're going and don't see any problems with it.

But don't act like it's some sort of fact that it's not a "bleak future" for some since for the classic gamer's, it's exactly that. And the same for books, journals, and so on for segments of the population

Here's a couple of excellent post I read just a few days ago about some of the problems being experienced with the transition to digital at our nation's libraries.

http://newsearch.boatnerd.com/viewtopic.php?p=48225#p48225

http://newsearch.boatnerd.com/viewtopic.php?p=48317#p48317

Digital can be a great thing but it certainly still has its pitfalls in many different ways.

There are always growing pains in any heavy transition, and physical to digital is clearly not an exception. I'm not too worried about it, though. It will get figured out; the faster that companies figure out that the old financial model simply doesn't work anymore, the faster this will resolve. Ten years, twenty, whatever. The realities the market demand it if these companies want to stay relevant and solvent.

There are games that will be lost to time, for a variety of reasons. The most obvious is that, in the case of games like Motor City Online, Diablo III, and most MMOs, some of the code lives on company servers and isn't publicly available. That's too bad, and it would be great if there were some way to preserve and maintain these types of games, but if not? We'll have to settle for video archives and hacked work arounds. Again: too bad. But, as history teaches us, some clever people will likely develop ways around it.

Early PC gaming had plenty of different DRM schemes that haven't stopped emulation or porting efforts. Code wheels, referencing the manual for a specific work on a specific page, dongles, you name it, it's been dealt with. As long as we have the code, we can work around it.



If digital is the future, I hope it isn't streaming. Gamer's themselves have largely been responsible for the preservation of the past for this industry so far and if they're taken out of the picture via a shift towards video streaming, much will be quickly lost going forward.

We agree on that much, at least. Given how marginal companies like Onlive, Otoy, and Gaikai have been, I'm not sure we need to worry too much about it yet. And consider that it only takes one instance of the .exe to escape into the wild for someone to figure out how to keep it viable, and therefore preserve it. I'm not the kind of person who believes that "information wants to be free" stuff, but there certainly is a correlation between information existing, and said information showing up on a torrent at some point.

[Leo_A]

Indefinitely doesn't equate to forever. So no, I didn't imply that. And the next paragraph that's underlined doesn't even have anything to do with how long anything will last.

Here's a definition of indefinitely for you...

Not definite, especially:
a. Unclear; vague.
b. Lacking precise limits: an indefinite leave of absence.
c. Uncertain; undecided: indefinite about their plans.

[G-Boobie]

Indefinitely doesn't equate to forever. So no, I didn't imply that. And the next paragraph that's underlined doesn't even have anything to do with how long anything will last.

You wacky funster. If you're left arguing nomenclature and semantics, I guess we're done, then.

Here's a fun fact for you: there isn't a mainstream gaming system out there that hasn't been emulated in some way. Explain to me why you believe that equates to "a vague hope of emulation or hacking".

[Leo_A]

I was simply explaining that I never said what you claimed I did. I was using the word in its correct context and due to your misunderstanding, it seemed to warrant some clarification.

[G-Boobie]

I was simply explaining that I never said what you claimed I did. I was using the word in its correct context.

Did you ever really think I was claiming that something like a Atari 2600 cartridge would live an eternal life?

No, but since we're both speaking with just a touch of hyperbole here, I assumed you would be the bigger man and take the sentence in the context it was given. Not "forever", but you very clearly decided that my utopian, currently underway digital future was a threat to classic gaming, or maybe just gaming in general. Read over what you wrote again and tell me otherwise, because you take me to task for being some crazy "outlier" because I'm not too worried about games on the internet. You then site the ability to add new, physical games to your collection as a benefit of physical media 20 or 30 years into the future.

I have a rule. When someone I'm debating descends to the semantic, nitpicking, abusive point, it's time to break it off, but in this case, I want you to defend your point; something you've failed to do so far. We agree that "Indefinite" does not mean "infinite". My argument is that digital lasts longer than physical. My argument is that the entire industry is heading that way, and given that the entire digital market is less than ten years old and is already half of the music industry (and far more than that for movies and television, if you count Netflix, Hulu, Amazon Prime, etc), we can look for continued growth and a push from publishers and platform holders in that area. This is the last generation of consoles with optical drives. Bandwidth is not a problem: there's a significant amount of dark fiber out there. They just need to turn it on, and wireless signal technology improves constantly. We could always take away some more from the television industry: they're not using it.

There's no guarantee that there will be a generation of dedicated consoles beyond this one, but if there is? No optical. All digital download.

[Leo_A]

It seem's to all boil down that you seem displeased that someone dares to not be completely satisfied with the direction we're heading down by thing's like you suggesting I'm ignorant of the online distribution option's out there being widely used and other instances of your postings. I'll save you the trouble of replying right now if that's the case. That's my opinion and I've seen nothing from you to persuade me even the slightest that i'm incorrect in my personal opinion's about the digital shift that's underway. So if that's your goal, save yourself the trouble of replying again.


No, but since we're both speaking with just a touch of hyperbole here, I assumed you would be the bigger man and take the sentence in the context it was given. Not "forever", but you very clearly decided that my utopian, currently underway digital future was a threat to classic gaming, or maybe just gaming in general. Read over what you wrote again and tell me otherwise, because you take me to task for being some crazy "outlier" because I'm not too worried about games on the internet.

You've been putting word's into my mouth with multiple postings in this thread. I suggest you try reading what I write and also try not taking it so seriously.


You then site the ability to add new, physical games to your collection as a benefit of physical media 20 or 30 years into the future.

And?

I really don't think I have much need to defend my point that I can log onto a thousand different websites today and buy most any Atari 2600 cartridge from 30 year's ago right now as being an advantage over digital. 10 year's from now I'd be shocked if any online services for the 360, PS3, PSP, DS, or Wii will even be online and I doubt I need to cite any evidence of that for 99% of Digital Press.

How do you propose someone log onto a digital service that doesn't even exist? Jumping through loop's on fire via "alternate means" like emulation to access older digital content is something I think many of us would consider a poor substitute and hardly the equivalent of being able to buy legitimate copies of game's on cartridges, CD's, DVD's, etc.


I have a rule. When someone I'm debating descends to the semantic, nitpicking, abusive point, it's time to break it off

Get off your high horse. You put words in my mouth by claiming I made claim's that I never did and so I defined the one word I used that came the closest to what you claimed I said. Then you dare act insulted when I defend my point and clarify it?

Indefinitely isn't forever and neither is it incorrect to use in this instance when I can go out and buy nearly 40 year old Atari 2600 cartridges with a reasonable expectation of them working while I can't even log on to the original Xbox Live Arcade today and download game's that came out less than a decade ago (And if it requires even further clarification, I've been discussing legitimately purchased content and enjoying that into the future rather than 3rd party modding, pirating, emulation, and so on which I've previously discussed in this thread as being a poor substitute for what we've enjoyed in the past that's hardly a guarantee of even being possible as security measure's grow and complexity makes leap's and bounds).

If you didn't like that then I suggest you stop using exaggeration like you did by your own admission and stick to the point at hand. If you want to argue, at least argue the point that the other person made instead of making them feel obligated to clarify the matter to you further when you twist what they said.


but in this case, I want you to defend your point; something you've failed to do so far. We agree that "Indefinite" does not mean "infinite". My argument is that digital lasts longer than physical.

Defend what point? I simply stated the obvious. Digital equates to limited availability. After a relatively short amount of time it become's unavailable to purchase and simultaneously or later on, to even redownload for those that have purchased a license in the past. There's no shortage of evidence even on current generation game console's that supports those claims if you're somehow unfamiliar with it.

As for the rest, really? May I ask what evidence you have to support that something like my purchase for a license for the XBLA release of Ms. Pac-Man on the 360 will last longer than even my 2600 cartridge of Ms. Pac-Man that had a 25 year head start on it? You have much more luck and faith in thing's like hard drive's than I do. And that's without even getting into thing's like requirement's for persistent online connection's (Already required with several PS3 game's and if rumor's are to believed, very well might be a console wide mandate on the PS4 and/or Xbox 720 which mean's your digital content will be useless the day the server's are shutdown and you won't even have to wait for a hardware failure after the server's have disappeared to lose your content) and other DRM measure's.

And if we go the OnLive model, the opportunity for the gamer to be the preservationist of this hobby by extracting code and making it available via the internet won't even be present. So even the modding scene and such which has done thing's like opened up the original Xbox allowing us to install patches and downloadable content now unavailable by official mean's won't be able to do much.


My argument is that the entire industry is heading that way, and given that the entire digital market is less than ten years old and is already half of the music industry (and far more than that for movies and television, if you count Netflix, Hulu, Amazon Prime, etc), we can look for continued growth and a push from publishers and platform holders in that area.

What argument?

And what the heck does the growth of digital have to even do with what we've been talking about recently? There isn't a single person that has posted in this thread denying that not only has this shift been well underway for several years now, but that we're progressively heading even further toward's that direction.

I think you can rest trying to prove something that doesn't need any verification.


This is the last generation of consoles with optical drives. Bandwidth is not a problem: there's a significant amount of dark fiber out there. They just need to turn it on, and wireless signal technology improves constantly. We could always take away some more from the television industry: they're not using it.

There's no guarantee that there will be a generation of dedicated consoles beyond this one, but if there is? No optical. All digital download.

Time will tell if you're right or not. But I'll reiterate my point that I've made multiple times in this thread that even if the technology is 100% in place to meet the demand if the switch were to be thrown today, there's other factor's to consider that are as important or more so.

We're being weened off physical media. We'll see in a generation's time if the process has been wrapped up enough to make that step or if it requires more time.

[G-Boobie]

I really don't think I have much need to defend my point that I can log onto a thousand different websites today and buy most any Atari 2600 cartridge from 30 year's ago right now as being an advantage over digital. 10 year's from now I'd be shocked if any online services for the 360, PS3, PSP, DS, or Wii will even be online and I doubt I need to cite any evidence of that for 99% of Digital Press.

Quite simply, your Atari carts will cease to function one day. The only way you'll be able to play Kaboom or River Raid will be through either emulation or purchasing it again on a different platform. This isn't a possibility. This is fact. You will not have a choice. And it will probably be through a digital service. If these carts last another 100 years, 101 years from now your grandchildren or great-grandchildren will be doing it. Either way, it's inevitable, on which we apparently agree.


How do you propose someone log onto a digital service that doesn't even exist? Jumping through loop's on fire via "alternate means" like emulation to access older digital content is something I think many of us would consider a poor substitute and hardly the equivalent of being able to buy legitimate copies of game's on cartridges, CD's, DVD's, etc.

You won't. You'll end up torrenting it, or purchasing it for the nineteenth time on some digital platform. The CDs, DVDs, etc. won't be around in the long term. Whether or not you prefer that fact is irrelevant. It's the way it's going to be, and the way that we're well on our way towards.


Indefinitely isn't forever and neither is it incorrect to use in this instance when I can go out and buy nearly 40 year old Atari 2600 cartridges with a reasonable expectation of them working while I can't even log on to the original Xbox Live Arcade today and download game's that came out less than a decade ago (And if it requires even further clarification, I've been discussing legitimately purchased content and enjoying that into the future rather than 3rd party modding, pirating, emulation, and so on which I've previously discussed in this thread as being a poor substitute for what we've enjoyed in the past that's hardly a guarantee of even being possible as security measure's grow and complexity makes leap's and bounds).

Then you'll be able to play your carts, CDs, DVDs, and so on until the media breaks down, or the consoles do. Then, you'll have to buy them again in one form or another (or resort to torrenting). I'd add that complexity grows in the hacking/rooting/reverse engineering department at a considerably faster rate than companies can invent even worse kinds of DRM; I can't think of a single game that's defied efforts to crack it or restore it to playability except MMos. And, if the hacking makes you uncomfortable, I guarantee you that you'll be able to buy them again from someone. Digitally, of course.

I repurchased Planescape Torment from GOG because my original DVDs refuse to install properly. I'm not rocking a 486 over here, but it runs great and the experience is good enough for me. At some point this situation becomes inevitable. You're not going to play Salamander or Darius Twin in an arcade anymore unless you find, purchase, and probably restore the cabinet, and if you're willing to do that, more power to you. Still, that monitor is going to die at some point, and we're running out of them. Maybe someone figures out a boutique solution for manufacturing small quantities for the niche arcade machine culture, but you can bet that's going to cost, assuming it even happens. End of an era, but there you go.

I guess my issue is you're assuming a persistence with physical media that simply doesn't exist. Maybe they last fifty years, and in that case, good for you and your collection. At some point though, they die, and all that's left is code on a server somewhere that some industrious gamer thought long enough ahead to dump.


Defend what point? I simply stated the obvious. Digital equates to limited availability. After a relatively short amount of time it become's unavailable to purchase and simultaneously or later on, to even redownload for those that have purchased a license in the past. There's no shortage of evidence even on current generation game console's that supports those claims if you're somehow unfamiliar with it.

Ah, here's the core of our little disagreement. Digital is forever, because once the code gets online, it's persistent. How many millions of NES ROMS are on the hard drives and in the Dropboxes of the country right now? Planck couldn't count that high. Would you like to reburn the ROM set in your failing Joust machine? Download them, reburn, good to go! Or, if you're a filthy pirate(or a preservationist), you download them and play them on your emulator. How many weird little arcade machines are lost to time because their physical boards were corroded, thrown out, or re-purposed? How many weird, obscure early PC games suffered the same fate because their 5.5" floppies no longer function, or were written over? How many prototypes are sitting under some dude's bed, quietly rotting and disappearing forever?

Physical media is great, and honestly? Given a choice between a disc (on a console), and a download, I'm liable to choose the disc. I'm old though, and I see the kids in their first year of college who don't care at all, and who've never owned a CD and would rather wait for something to hit Netflix than buy or rent the DVD.

I'm not talking about licenses; they come and go, and there's nothing to be done about that. On the other hand, the games themselves will be around forever, one way or another. Further more, I see nothing different between buying another copy of Kaboom on a cart when your original breaks down, or buying a new copy of Gears of War 3 digitally because we've transferred systems and that's the only way to get it. Either way, you're buying it again.


And that's without even getting into thing's like requirement's for persistent online connection's (Already required with several PS3 game's and if rumor's are to believed, very well might be a console wide mandate on the PS4 and/or Xbox 720 which mean's your digital content will be useless the day the server's are shutdown and you won't even have to wait for a hardware failure after the server's have disappeared to lose your content) and other DRM measure's.

You might not like it, but that's the way we're going, and there's little to be done about it. Better get used to BitTorrent, or be prepared to repurchase your game on whatever service springs up after Sony and Microsoft's services disappear... But I have faith that those guys will probably be around a while. And that persistent internet connection thing? Whatever. Google "cracking persistent online connection for ______ game". Problem solved.

I will always buy a game if it's available for purchase. If I want a game, I will A) see if it's available, and then B) buy it if it is, and if it is not, then C) find a ROM and emulate it/crack it. That's not a different set of steps whether or not I'm buying a disc or a license on some digital service. I honestly don't see the problem, here. If you're looking at some horrible future where all games are lost to time because that generation's network has been taken down, well... I'm not worried. Technology continues to improve, and I have faith in that because there isn't a single system that I can't find emulated online right this second and play games on. It might take some finagling, but whatever. How much do you want it. Hell, I was playing Wind Waker on a GameCube emulator called "Dolphin" a couple of weeks ago, and it was excellent. It plays Wii games too, I'm told. In five years, we'll be emulating 360 and PS3 games.


And if we go the OnLive model, the opportunity for the gamer to be the preservationist of this hobby by extracting code and making it available via the internet won't even be present. So even the modding scene and such which has done thing's like opened up the original Xbox allowing us to install patches and downloadable content now unavailable by official mean's won't be able to do much.

Indeed. But again: it hasn't happened yet, and it only takes one instance of the code getting out to the web for the game to be preserved.


Time will tell if you're right or not. But I'll reiterate my point that I've made multiple times in this thread that even if the technology is 100% in place to meet the demand if the switch were to be thrown today, there's other factor's to consider that are as important or more so.

And my argument is that the reason that we're heading towards a digital future is largely because of the media companies, and they're pushing for that largely because their customers are demanding it. Clearly not YOU, but a significant enough percentage that it makes a lot of sense. It makes sense from a business perspective, too: no manufacturing costs, no distribution costs, better access to customer data, and so on. Companies are still laying fiber and turning on previously dark networks as fast as they can. Broadband penetration is going to hit very close to 100% in the United States in the next five years. Your other factors are irrelevant in the face of this.



We're being weened off physical media. We'll see in a generation's time if the process has been wrapped up enough to make that step or if it requires more time.

A console generation's worth of time, yes. Whether that means five years, seven years, or forever, I suppose we'll have to see. Also, it's 'weaned', unless you're talking about Ween stealing your CDs, which given their reputation, wouldn't surprise me much.

Leo, you so grumpy. :)

[Leo_A]

Quite simply, your Atari carts will cease to function one day.

And again, nobody ever said that they wouldn't.

But they're sure as heck going to outlast your paid download's on your hard drive on your latest console.


The only way you'll be able to play Kaboom or River Raid will be through either emulation or purchasing it again on a different platform. This isn't a possibility. This is fact.

And by the time that happens, I'll be gone as will most of the few thousand people around the world with any interest in playing such content.

So I'm really not particularly worried when after many hundred's of cartridges over the year's I've had a total of one die on me and another be DOA. I'm much more concerned about something like the status of Xbox Live when 5 year's or so roll by after the 360 has largely been commercially replaced.


Then you'll be able to play your carts, CDs, DVDs, and so on until the media breaks down, or the consoles do.

Something I'm not worried about. There's been no incidents of widespread castrophic failures and the thing's that are common problems are easily rectified like capacitor replacements.

I'm quite confident I'll be able to keep my console's and their physical media going well into the future and as long as I want them to last.


I'd add that complexity grows in the hacking/rooting/reverse engineering department at a considerably faster rate than companies can invent even worse kinds of DRM; I can't think of a single game that's defied efforts to crack it or restore it to playability except MMos. And, if the hacking makes you uncomfortable, I guarantee you that you'll be able to buy them again from someone. Digitally, of course.

The Xbox 360 and Playstation 3 sure don't show any signs of ever becoming as open as the original Xbox.


I guess my issue is you're assuming a persistence with physical media that simply doesn't exist. Maybe they last fifty years, and in that case, good for you and your collection. At some point though, they die, and all that's left is code on a server somewhere that some industrious gamer thought long enough ahead to dump.

As I've already made it clear several time's before, I'm just talking decade's instead of a handful of year's. That's definitely an asset that console's and physical media hold that paid digital download's don't. There's no room here to debate this.


Ah, here's the core of our little disagreement. Digital is forever, because once the code gets online, it's persistent. How many millions of NES ROMS are on the hard drives and in the Dropboxes of the country right now?

And again, I haven't been discussing people extracting information and making it available digitally. And in fact I was the first person in this thread to state that gamer's themselves have been the best archivist this industry could've had.

I'm discussing legitimate purchases. Cartridges manufactured by a company like Nintendo will far outlive something like my download of The Legend of Zelda that was downloaded from Nintendo's server and my digital license that grants me access that's residing on the internal flash memory of my Wii right now and which will become unavailable to officially retrieve once the Wii's Virtual Console has the plug unplugged.

I haven't been discussing how I could dump the contents of my Wii's flash drive and put that file on to my PC or on to another Wii with the Homebrew Channel. Something that I may add is even easier to do with physical media.


...or be prepared to repurchase your game on whatever service springs up after Sony and Microsoft's services disappear... But I have faith that those guys will probably be around a while.

The only way even a fraction of the digital content on the PS3 and Xbox 360 will reappear elsewhere if if their successor's are backward's compatible. And that's a huge "if" at this time.

And the original Xbox Live service would like to say hi to you.



And that persistent internet connection thing? Whatever. Google "cracking persistent online connection for ______ game". Problem solved.

Nonsense

I highly doubt that is has been solved on thing's like the PS3's Bionic Commando Rearmed. And I highly doubt if it's implemented system wide on the 720 and PS4 that there will be any sort of a workaround until perhaps year's after the consoles have been discontinued. We're not talking about PC gaming, we're talking about thing's that are very much closed platforms.


If you're looking at some horrible future where all games are lost to time because that generation's network has been taken down, well... I'm not worried.

Have I suggested such a thing?

Beyond if we go the all streaming model in the future, no, I haven't.


Technology continues to improve, and I have faith in that because there isn't a single system that I can't find emulated online right this second and play games on. It might take some finagling, but whatever. How much do you want it. Hell, I was playing Wind Waker on a GameCube emulator called "Dolphin" a couple of weeks ago, and it was excellent. It plays Wii games too, I'm told. In five years, we'll be emulating 360 and PS3 games.

And Dolphin has a heck of a long way to go, Sega Saturn emulation is still at a fairly primitive level, Atari Jaguar emulation is just now starting to reach something that is even semi useful in a few games, and I imagine the Xbox and PS2 are a long ways off before they're emulated to the level that something like a Atari 2600 or Sega Genesis has been.

We may be emulating 360 and PS3 software in five years, but it's going to be an extremely convoluted program with extremely high PC requirements, extremely poor compatibility, and be riddled with issues for the game's that do somewhat function in it.


And my argument is that the reason that we're heading towards a digital future is largely because of the media companies, and they're pushing for that largely because their customers are demanding it. Clearly not YOU, but a significant enough percentage that it makes a lot of sense.

I don't see ton's of gamer's calling for it. I've seen about four at various forum's over the year's that want to move all digital and hundreds more that appreciate physical media.


It makes sense from a business perspective, too: no manufacturing costs, no distribution costs, better access to customer data, and so on. Companies are still laying fiber and turning on previously dark networks as fast as they can. Broadband penetration is going to hit very close to 100% in the United States in the next five years. Your other factors are irrelevant in the face of this.

And again, you have all that infrastructure to support 100% digital distribution on a console that will be largely idle most of the year. Something I think is going to a heck of a lot more expensive than you think.

And the consumer and your retailer's are hardly irrelevant. They will go 100% digital distribution if and when all three factor's are ready.

Leo, you so grumpy. :)

I was simply returning thing's in kind after nonsense like these line's.

"I have a rule. When someone I'm debating descends to the semantic, nitpicking, abusive point, it's time to break it off."

"No, but since we're both speaking with just a touch of hyperbole here, I assumed you would be the bigger man and take the sentence in the context it was given."

[The Dord]

Why couldn't Gamestop send a portion of what they make on a used game directly to the publisher of the game? Instead of making $0 on used games, they (publishers) could make some money on used sales? A couple of dollars could make a difference to the publisher on popular titles. They could also add the clause that the publisher gets nothing if the game's console isn't currently made just to satisfy retrocollectors too. :)

Of course you'd get a bit less on selling games back to places like Gamestop for this, but still.. :)

[The 1 2 P]

Of course you'd get a bit less on selling games back to places like Gamestop for this, but still.. :)

So instead of getting a dollar back for last years Madden you'd only get 60 cents.

[kedawa]

Physical games are just as susceptible to 'server sunset' as digital only games.
Software as a service will always have that drawback.

[Leo_A]

Physical games are just as susceptible to 'server sunset' as digital only games.
Software as a service will always have that drawback.

For the online multiplayer end, certainly.

But for the most part even today, the single player component's for retail console releases are largely safe and will be able to be enjoyed long after Xbox Live disappears on any Xbox 360 (Minus DLC expansions, patches, and so on that won't be able to be officially retrieved if you didn't already have them) even though that's progressively changing as thing's like unlock code's grow in popularity and are now affecting more than just online multiplayer. And if the many rumor's about the Xbox 720 and Playstation 4 like persistent internet connection requirements system wide, locking out used game's, and so on pan out then even retail releases will lack all of the freedom's we've enjoyed in the past.

May as well be all download if that happens. At least then you don't have all the clutter, console wear is reduced thanks to the elimination of moving parts and less heat, no disc drive noise, and you don't have the bother of changing disc when moving from game to game. Beats having a bunch of discs that will become coasters at the flip of a switch someday when the plug is pulled on the online network.

[Bojay1997]

I had an interesting experience at Target today. They had a bunch of new EA game collections in DVD cases in the PC game section. Upon further inspection, they had giant yellow banners that say "no disc enclosed, download only". If a mainstream store like Target is stocking download only PC games collections at $50, I suspect the public is much more open to the idea than they were even a year ago. I'm really amazed as how quickly the digital only transition is happening.

[wiggyx]

here's a fun fact for you: There isn't a mainstream gaming system out there that hasn't been emulated in some way.

64dd.

[G-Boobie]

64dd.

Google "64DD Emulation", wiggy. It's coming along. :) I'll add that a system that was only released as an incentive through a Japanese ISP is hardly 'mainstream". People are still working on emulating it, though, despite it's weird niche status.

So here's what this thread has taught us so far:

1) Gamers tend to be the preservationists of classic gaming: at first through the maintenance and restoration of hardware, and then through software emulation.
2) Publishers and platform holders don't give a fuck about preservation unless there's some money in it for them. If they think there's no money to be made, see number 1.
3) Digital distribution is where we're headed, for better or worse, and we'll eventually see digital platform holders disappear or remove content. See number 2, and if necessary, number 1.
4) Since Onlive died, Gaikai is busy with streaming demos (and probably emulating PS3 games on the PS4, if I had to guess), and no one cares about Otoy, we probably don't have to worry about streaming just yet.
5) Although Sony patented technology to bind discs to individual user accounts or consoles, there's no evidence that they're actually going to do it.
6) Even if they do, it's functionally the same as buying a game through Steam, an album, game or movie through iTunes, or a game off of XBL. The only difference is that you can't sell the game to Gamestop or on Ebay when you're done with it. This will kill the secondary market, which will anger some people. Your mileage may vary. Either way, it probably won't matter in the long run. People will buy the games they want to play. If that isn't an option, see number 1.
7) Man, people get uptight about used games.

[IHatedSega]

The play online only option is very scary to me from a preservation stand point. If the servers go down somehow just like with the Dreamcast online content, the games are gone forever. Downloading the game to your console will allow for hackers to get the game at least though.

Playing second copies or emulating older games is so important, if the industry loses that I fear for the future. If a small company makes a really cool game but goes out of business how will the games they made live on?

[G-Boobie]

Playing second copies or emulating older games is so important, if the industry loses that I fear for the future. If a small company makes a really cool game but goes out of business how will the games they made live on?

There's always been a weird, Darwinist approach to the preservation of any media. There are plenty of novels and poetry that were considered important in their day that are long out of print, and in some cases completely gone. It's the same with film, the fine arts, and everything else.

Anything that is genuinely important tends to get preserved one way or another, though. Not always, but most of the time. And, with the advent if the Internet, some of those lost or impossibly rare things are becoming widely available again, often for free or very cheap. The same will hold true for games.

I mean, Snacks 'N Jackson is on MAME. If that's on hard drives all over the world, I'm not too worried about anything else.

[IHatedSega]

I just have this fear that the next generation with cloud gaming may be like a Library of Alexandria, once those different servers are gone, a ton of stuff will be lost forever.

We could prevent this, but not if game systems cant play used or a friends copy. Emulation will take forever to achieve perfectly.

Im being all doom and gloom, but I think more people should be about this kind of stuff.

[Rickstilwell1]

Nobody ever said that anything was. So I'm not sure what your point is.



Nobody ever said that they would be. Hence why the vague "hope" that even some digital streaming proponents put forward elsewhere that claim that even classic gamer's will be able to be satisfied in the future via emulation and hacking is nonsense. If important element's of the code exist elsewhere (The server information for Motor City Online, for instance) or the entire game itself is just video steamed to you such as the OnLive model, the opporunity for the gamer to archive, preserve, and make that material available later via the internet will be impossible.

Taking it a step forward, look at how well companies have traditionally archive their material. The situation very well could arise where game's from just a few year's earlier simply don't even exist any longer while thanks to gamer's, you can log online and find entire romsets for console's released many decade's earlier. If the future arrives and it ends up being video streaming, I see no way around game's quickly and routinely becoming lost to time.

Imagine what would exist for the Atari 2600 today if somehow the technology to stream video while sending your control inputs out to a central server had somehow been possible. Beyond a tiny bit of source code kept by the occasional programmer, that material would be almost universally lost today. Yet that's the direction we're heading towards now.

It happens today even with an industry that has been around for decades now and has grown to enjoy a fair amount of stability (At least with larger and more established firm's). For instance, there's plenty of comments out there directly from Sega employees about source code from even semi recent projects that don't appear to exist any longer. The final source code for Okami wasn't archived by Capcom for another example and caused great pain's when the decision to port it elsewhere was later made. The final source code for Silent Hill 2 wasn't able to be located by Konami recently and appears to be much of the reason why the HD port of it was so flawed beyond the stuttering itself which was just sucky programming (Apparently they had to port over an incomplete earlier version of the project since that's all that Konami had). And that's just some examples off hand that the public has become aware of via interviews and such.

If digital is the future, I hope it isn't streaming. Gamer's themselves have largely been responsible for the preservation of the past for this industry so far and if they're taken out of the picture via a shift towards video streaming, much will be quickly lost going forward.

In other words, record that footage! It is vital in order to be able to study and simulate these experiences via means of free fangames.

[duffmanth]

Despite the growth of broadband, the infrastructure still isn't there for 100% digital distribution. A lot of people are knocking on bandwidth limits as it is just by being an avid user of things like Netflix.

Until internet infrastructure improves enough and ISP's evolve their policies to adapt (Which is the biggest technical hurdle but not the only problem or thing that needs to change for us to move to 100% digital distribution), retail distribution will still dominate the console landscape. And with the server infrastructure that will be needed just to support a big game launch or two during the course of a year and a few other days like around Christmas, I'm not sure they will ever go all digital. Imagine all the expense and equipment needed for just a handful of day's that probably wouldn't even be working at 10% capacity for 350 days of every year.

My concern at least for the next generation or two is with the removal of our control and freedom over our own disc. A future where I can't insert any disc into any console and fully enjoy the offline experience since there are things like unlock codes to open up access to a single player game and so on stinks just as much as an all download future.

If anything, it's even worse. You'd have physical media with none of the traditional benefits of physical media (Beyond the joy geek's get with lining their bookcases with DVD cases ;)) and also none of the advantages that the digital route offers (Not having to change discs, faster loading times, less wear and tear on your console, no clutter, etc.).

That's much more my concern for the next 10 years or so than any worry about publisher's ceasing to ship console game's on optical disc to retailers. Digital got its start in the last generation, has become a popular secondary form of distribution this generation, and will likely be on a even footing the next with competitive pricing and same day digital releases for virtually all software.

Then I'd expect at least another generation where retail distribution is an important secondary form of distribution before it disappears completely.

Thia is a huge issue that doesn't get enough attention. If people are coming close to or exceeding their monthly data usage with things like streaming movies and downloading music, can you imagine how fast people will be eating up their data streaming and/or downloading massive game files!? Speed is another issue as well, as I have a fairly fast cable Internet connection, but my download speeds are all over the place, and I still have Youtube videos buffering from time to time lol. Infrastructure is not even close to where it needs to be to support a totally digital video game industry. Until ISP's get rid of these fucking data usage caps and servers can handle the streaming/downloading of games, physical games will still be the go to medium for me and many others.

[JSoup]

I've never really got these data usage caps that people keep going on about. Either my Comcast service doesn't have one or it's some absurdly high number that I'll never reach, as I'm using my connection to stream crap from Justin.tv every night for several hours (I'm doing it right now, in fact), sometimes with someone playing PS3 in one room while someone else is playing WoW in another (both of which are happening right now). The supposedly huge amount of data I use per month makes me feel that it's not as big of an issue as it is being made out to be.

[G-Boobie]

I've never really got these data usage caps that people keep going on about. Either my Comcast service doesn't have one or it's some absurdly high number that I'll never reach, as I'm using my connection to stream crap from Justin.tv every night for several hours (I'm doing it right now, in fact), sometimes with someone playing PS3 in one room while someone else is playing WoW in another (both of which are happening right now). The supposedly huge amount of data I use per month makes me feel that it's not as big of an issue as it is being made out to be.

Yeah, I regularly double my Comcast bandwidth cap and I've never heard a peep about it.

There's an article on the Verge today where the former head of the FCC admits that data caps have nothing to do with bandwidth, and everything to do with maximizing profits for ISPs. Surprising no one.

As I'm typing this, I'm playing SFIV online, streaming SoCal Regionals on 720p, and watching ONI safe jump set ups on YouTube. I should also mention I live in the sticks of Michigan. Bandwidth is not the problem; confused executives struggling to deal with the new realities of broadband demand is the problem. It'll get better over time. There's money involved.

[IHatedSega]

Not everyone has great internet like you guys. I finally was able to pay for internet with some of my christmas money, its a good service now. But before that I had to use a free connection from a hotel near me and oh my fucking god, theres no way I could play online with it, streaming youtube is terrible. You do need fast internet to download things, and you need reliable connections so your file isnt lost or broken.

The internet only gaming route cuts off poor people from accessing new games more than before. Not only will newer games be idolized with its better graphics, cheaper old games or emulating will be seen as poor peoples alternatives to rich brats at school. Itll be like if the rich and cool kids played NEO GEO AES while everyone else were losers for having a SNES. Yeah Im making that comparison.

[Gameguy]

Not everyone has great internet like you guys. I finally was able to pay for internet with some of my christmas money, its a good service now. But before that I had to use a free connection from a hotel near me and oh my fucking god, theres no way I could play online with it, streaming youtube is terrible. You do need fast internet to download things, and you need reliable connections so your file isnt lost or broken.

The internet only gaming route cuts off poor people from accessing new games more than before. Not only will newer games be idolized with its better graphics, cheaper old games or emulating will be seen as poor peoples alternatives to rich brats at school. Itll be like if the rich and cool kids played NEO GEO AES while everyone else were losers for having a SNES. Yeah Im making that comparison.
They aren't aiming for the poor people, they're aiming for the people with money who'd be willing to buy games for full price without a second thought. Being a loser for having a SNES? I wouldn't shed a tear for losing that battle. If it was years later and you were stuck with just an N64 or Dreamcast, then I'd be upset.

You don't really need a fast connection for Youtube, even with a 5Mbps download speed it's more than enough to stream video without problems. That's the speed I have last I checked, unless they recently upgraded it without telling us(when would an ISP upgrade anything for free?). Would I bother downloading full massive games all the time when they're several GBs large? No way would I pay for games like that, I can do without them.

[kedawa]

I wouldn't use Youtube as a measure of connection quality.
It can suck terribly on even the best connection.

[Zthun]

Not everyone has great internet like you guys. I finally was able to pay for internet with some of my christmas money, its a good service now. But before that I had to use a free connection from a hotel near me and oh my fucking god, theres no way I could play online with it, streaming youtube is terrible. You do need fast internet to download things, and you need reliable connections so your file isnt lost or broken.

The internet only gaming route cuts off poor people from accessing new games more than before. Not only will newer games be idolized with its better graphics, cheaper old games or emulating will be seen as poor peoples alternatives to rich brats at school. Itll be like if the rich and cool kids played NEO GEO AES while everyone else were losers for having a SNES. Yeah Im making that comparison.

Gaming is not a welfare or government funded entitlement. Private companies are going to go the route that will net them the most customers and the most profit. Targeting the poor is not the greatest business strategy for gaming because poor people don't have the money to spend on games or expensive entertainment.

Gaming can be a very expensive hobby. it's not exactly the best pick for those in financial strain. And call me old fashioned, but I would have never though about using a gaming system as a mark of social class. The greatness of a system is not determined by the power of its hardware but the games that are made for it.

[Rickstilwell1]

At least if gaming does go south because of new business models, there are so many old systems with large libraries now (going on 41 years worth) that it would probably be impossible to finish all console and handheld games within one's lifetime. That makes me wonder how long it would take just to beat every English console and handheld RPG to date. Unlike the crash of '83 where there wasn't very much to go back to, nowadays there's a treasure trove of confirmed good games on almost all systems. Even the systems that lost to competition back then are getting praised now because they're offering gamers new experiences more similar to the ones they were familiar with than what current gen systems are putting out.

I bet some new games going forward will really tease us and make us want to play them though. Look how many people are sucked into Diablo III even though it's online only. It's going to suck for them if Blizzard ever pulls the game. I don't expect them to for a long time though if they are still selling Diablo Battle chest though.

[IHatedSega]

The free internet I was lucky if I had 100kbps....at night. New gaming is very expensive, maybe thats a problem it doesnt want to admit itself to.

I hope if games are download only they arent $60. It really seems though this generation gaming did become about making bigger money than before. The PS3 was originally going to be $600! Game companies are making DLC that costs money when the content is actually on the disk. Gaming companies have to spend a lot more to make their games look like their apart of this generation and not PS2 era. Gaming is expensive, but I think this next generation its going to get worse. In 3d world countries only rich kids have gaming consoles. It doesnt have to target the poorest people, but shouldnt gaming want a lot of people to be able to afford it? If games some games were $40 new theyd sell really well. If the marketing was right at least. This industry is becoming too bloated, if you dont have the best graphics then most people wont give your game a second look. Unfortunately that means trying to look "real" so a ton of money has to be poured into making games with characters that will look terrible in 5 years. I wish more 2D games were made still and given good marketing behind them. The gaming industry is trying too hard to be like Hollywood, why cant anyone be the Troma?

And another thing, Im not a fan of the PS3 like I was PS2, too many things I dont care about outside of the online ability. It and the 360 are basically really cheap bad computers, and thats not good to me. I hate the browser and I find theres too many distractions from playing on it. In the past you bought your console and you played, you didnt even have to wait to play while a patch or feature downloaded. Can you imagine the N64 kids waiting for the WII U update???? I know that things made with only one feature wont be a good tech toy to have, but I wish the consoles would have had a mode minimal thing to them. PS3 would have been better if it just played Blu Ray and you could play against people on fighters and fps's, no browser or netflix. Id say all these extra features is whats leading to them dieing so soon, those consoles have become too advanced for their own good.

[JSoup]

I hope if games are download only they arent $60.

When this happens (and I fully expect it to), I officially switch to 100% piracy.

[IHatedSega]

When this happens (and I fully expect it to), I officially switch to 100% piracy.

Itll be interesting to see how hackers will adapt with this, I kinda expect copying games to be really easy, but playing them outside of a PS or Xbox will be tricky. WHo knows.


I also wish PS3 had memory cards, theyre so simple and perfect. Plus if I go to a friends house its better to just bring a card than anything else.

[Zthun]

The free internet I was lucky if I had 100kbps....at night. New gaming is very expensive, maybe thats a problem it doesnt want to admit itself to.

I hope if games are download only they arent $60. It really seems though this generation gaming did become about making bigger money than before. The PS3 was originally going to be $600! Game companies are making DLC that costs money when the content is actually on the disk. Gaming companies have to spend a lot more to make their games look like their apart of this generation and not PS2 era. Gaming is expensive, but I think this next generation its going to get worse. In 3d world countries only rich kids have gaming consoles. It doesnt have to target the poorest people, but shouldnt gaming want a lot of people to be able to afford it? If games some games were $40 new theyd sell really well. If the marketing was right at least. This industry is becoming too bloated, if you dont have the best graphics then most people wont give your game a second look. Unfortunately that means trying to look "real" so a ton of money has to be poured into making games with characters that will look terrible in 5 years. I wish more 2D games were made still and given good marketing behind them. The gaming industry is trying too hard to be like Hollywood, why cant anyone be the Troma?


They're plenty of games on android, ios, and windows metro that fit the inexpensive criteria, and some of these games area really good. Gamevil makes quite a few titles that are very high quality and the games themselves are only around $3.99. The problem is that people are getting deeper and deeper into the entitlement mentality. People want top notch, high res realistic graphics, production quality sound and voice acting, along with solid gameplay that rivals everything. And of course, they want it all for next to nothing because gaming should be for everyone and nobody should be making any money off game development. People don't work for free. Those salaries have to be paid, the bills have to be paid, and the corporation itself has to be paid.

I would love to see some $40 MSRP games on the shelves like it was 2 generations ago, but inflation has it's hands in everything. If you look at the past, in the NES and SNES era, games were around the same price, if not more, than they were today. If you adjust for inflation around a normalized graph, you'll see that games are cheaper today then they were in the past. You only think games were cheaper in the past because our parents bought the games for us and its much easier to ignore the cost when someone else is footing the bill.

For a sample of a comparison for inflation adjustment, here's a graph that details it.

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/177337/sizing_up_wii_us_price_tag_against_history.php#.uf iwcpyw_aq


And another thing, Im not a fan of the PS3 like I was PS2, too many things I dont care about outside of the online ability. It and the 360 are basically really cheap bad computers, and thats not good to me. I hate the browser and I find theres too many distractions from playing on it. In the past you bought your console and you played, you didnt even have to wait to play while a patch or feature downloaded. Can you imagine the N64 kids waiting for the WII U update???? I know that things made with only one feature wont be a good tech toy to have, but I wish the consoles would have had a mode minimal thing to them. PS3 would have been better if it just played Blu Ray and you could play against people on fighters and fps's, no browser or netflix. Id say all these extra features is whats leading to them dieing so soon, those consoles have become too advanced for their own good.

You are correct with your final statement - the more you add and put into one device, the more difficult it is to maintain, and the more things that can go wrong. However, advancement often requires difficult problem solving and well thought out architectures to support the demand.

[Frankie_Says_Relax]

I wouldn't use Youtube as a measure of connection quality.
It can suck terribly on even the best connection.

Hell yes, and it's also wildly unpredictable.

I've got about 25-35MBPS downstream on most days and just got out of a period of two solid weeks where whatever YouTube servers were available to my ISP wouldn't pre load/stream the sub-240 resolution stuff at all. It would totally choke on nearly every video.

Diagnosed my modem and router hardware to death (passed all of the functionality and speed benchmark testing - and all other streaming video sites ran like butter), Then, poof, one day YouTube is back to normal and a 720P stream will load 50-60% of a 30 minute video in SECONDS.

Like all other things, YouTube sometimes has bizarro problems on THEIR end that make the end user feel like something is wrong with their hardware.

[Leo_A]

At least if gaming does go south because of new business models, there are so many old systems with large libraries now (going on 41 years worth) that it would probably be impossible to finish all console and handheld games within one's lifetime.

Just the Playstation 2 alone has enough quality software available for it to last a lifetime. So it's not really a matter of possibly someday not having something new to play and enjoy.

It will still suck though to miss out on things from the future due to one's distaste of the business model. I doubt even I'll disappear but I'll certainly be extremely cautious with what licenses I rent (And I'm very skeptical that I'd ever pay full price) and I'll certainly be finding instances of a game I'd of loved that slipped by me or that I waited too long to pull the trigger on.


I also wish PS3 had memory cards, theyre so simple and perfect. Plus if I go to a friends house its better to just bring a card than anything else.

Good riddance to overpriced memory cards with a paltry amount of space in them in the console world. Wish Sony would leave behind that idiocy in the handheld world.

What you want is easily accomplished with cloud saves.

[Chadt74]

"I also wish PS3 had memory cards, theyre so simple and perfect. Plus if I go to a friends house its better to just bring a card than anything else"

can't you just use a normal usb drive and transfer the save there?

[IHatedSega]

Good riddance to overpriced memory cards with a paltry amount of space in them in the console world. Wish Sony would leave behind that idiocy in the handheld world.

What you want is easily accomplished with cloud saves.

It was $15 for 2 official sony ps2 memory cards in 02 or early 03. And if your PS3 dies you have all your game data on them, so you wouldmt have to lose everything or need to do a transfer.

[The 1 2 P]

It was $15 for 2 official sony ps2 memory cards in 02 or early 03. And if your PS3 dies you have all your game data on them, so you wouldmt have to lose everything or need to do a transfer.

While transfers do suck sometimes, trust me when I say that hard drives are much better than having to juggle multiple memory cards. Do you know how many memory cards I had for PS1? Ten active and four on standby. With large hard drives I no longer had to guess which card had which game saves on them(and those little slips they gave you could never fit all the save info you would need to write on them for 15 blocks worth of stuff).

[Gameguy]

How about just doing what the Sega CD or Saturn did? Have built in internal memory with optional memory cards being available for purchase separately. It's not like you'd be limited to sizes too small to be useful anymore, memory is cheaper than ever before. PS2 memory cards were first available at 8MB back when it was still common to be using 1.44MB floppy discs for PCs, now USB drives or SD cards lower than 2GB are almost considered useless compared to what's currently available.

Even with PC games you could copy save files to floppy discs to transfer to another computer, back before everyone had portable laptops.

[Leo_A]

It was $15 for 2 official sony ps2 memory cards in 02 or early 03. And if your PS3 dies you have all your game data on them, so you wouldmt have to lose everything or need to do a transfer.

If you ever saw two official PS2 memory cards for $15, it sure wasn't MSRP. The price of such a thing would've been more like $40 normally and $30 on sale back then.

$15 has been the MSRP for years now for just a single official PS2 memory card. And it used to be $25.

And if you want your saves backed up, there's the cloud save function that will do just that.


How about just doing what the Sega CD or Saturn did? Have built in internal memory

All four major console's presently on the marketplace do just that.

[Gameguy]

All four major console's presently on the marketplace do just that.
Not sure why you missed the rest of my post there, did you black out before finishing it? You specifically missed the part that would make the current consoles useful for people with friends, "with optional memory cards being available for purchase separately." It's so you wouldn't have to bring your entire console to a friends' house to play it, you could just bring the game and memory card. Mostly useful for the games that require you to unlock everything for all features, or if you're taking turns to play through some massively long game over several days/weeks.

Edit: Plus it's cool to backup your saves in case the hard drive dies. People backup important files off PC hard drives so why not do the same for console hard drives?

[Frankie_Says_Relax]

Not sure why you missed the rest of my post there, did you black out before finishing it? You specifically missed the part that would make the current consoles useful for people with friends, "with optional memory cards being available for purchase separately." It's so you wouldn't have to bring your entire console to a friends' house to play it, you could just bring the game and memory card. Mostly useful for the games that require you to unlock everything for all features, or if you're taking turns to play through some massively long game over several days/weeks.

Edit: Plus it's cool to backup your saves in case the hard drive dies. People backup important files off PC hard drives so why not do the same for console hard drives?

Man, I'm getting completely lost with some of this branching discussion.

We want memory cards back?

Both the 360 and the PS3 have USB slots which allow for games, saves and user profiles respectively to be copied/transferred and "taken to a friends house".

Microsoft discontinued XBOX 360-specific memory cards early in 360 production and Sony eliminated them completely prior to this console cycle beginning so, what would the point of a proprietary memory card be where USB is a widely utilized standard with really large format sticks available at low costs?

[Gameguy]

Both the 360 and the PS3 have USB slots which allow for games, saves and user profiles respectively to be copied/transferred and "taken to a friends house".
You can use a USB drive for backing up saves? I wasn't aware of that being possible, I thought you needed some sort of transfer kit to transfer anything between consoles. The newest home console I currently have is a PS2 so I haven't used any of the current ones. Why is IHatedSega complaining about a lack of cards then?

[Leo_A]

Not sure why you missed the rest of my post there, did you black out before finishing it? You specifically missed the part that would make the current consoles useful for people with friends, "with optional memory cards being available for purchase separately." It's so you wouldn't have to bring your entire console to a friends' house to play it, you could just bring the game and memory card. Mostly useful for the games that require you to unlock everything for all features, or if you're taking turns to play through some massively long game over several days/weeks.

Edit: Plus it's cool to backup your saves in case the hard drive dies. People backup important files off PC hard drives so why not do the same for console hard drives?

Calm down

I simply cut it down to what I was specifically responding to. It was as innocent as that and wasn't some sort of shady attempt to make you look stupid by selectively changing the meaning of your post.

I suppose I did miss the rest of the line I cut or it simply didn't register at the time since yes, I see that my reply wasn't really a response to exactly what you were saying. But it was as simple as that.

[Frankie_Says_Relax]

You can use a USB drive for backing up saves? I wasn't aware of that being possible, I thought you needed some sort of transfer kit to transfer anything between consoles. The newest home console I currently have is a PS2 so I haven't used any of the current ones. Why is IHatedSega complaining about a lack of cards then?

Yes, you can use USB sticks on both consoles to transfer data like game or game saves, which makes the argument for "memory cards" silly.

Just like with earlier systems, some games don't allow the saves to be "copied" to other physical memory devices but on PSN and XBL cloud saves will accept anything.

[BydoEmpire]

I don't really care about the PS4 (or next xbox or wii u), but to answer the thread title, I think the industry grew up a little too fast and it's not a fun, niche-y, hobby business anymore. It's just a lot bigger, with a lot more people's money on the line, and a lot more business (and therefor marketing) influence. A lot of folks say "video games are still a young industry" and that's true to some extent, but it feels like it went from tween to middle aged, without any growing up in the middle. It tries to get respect from other media, but it hasn't earned any. That said, iOS, Android, Steam, Kickstarter and other things have brought some of the old school "hobby industry" mentality back, which is kind of the best of both worlds.