Super Famicom Tragedy

[encephalon]

Today I received a super famicom in the mail with two games and ... no power adapter. I hadn't noticed it wasn't included in my purchase when I bought it. No big deal, I'll just use an equivalent one. Reading this post (http://www.digitpress.com/forum/showthread.php?148471-So-I-m-actually-importing-a-Super-Famicom-console&p=1764981&viewfull=1#post1764981), I figured a 12 VDC 1.5A adapter would work and they tested it in radioshack. A red light came on. Tried it again at home, it came on but nothing showed up on my screen. I took it to another room, plugged it in, and this time plugged in my 3rd party unlabeled SFC RGB cord from Japan (didn't want to spend $100 to plug it into my XRGB3) and ... wondered why nothing happened at all. Looked down, and the light wouldn't turn on. The light will no longer turn on.

So, what exactly happened here?

Consider:

1. Official adapter is 100 AC to 10 DC; power difference.
2. The cartridge port sounds "sandy." Turning it on for a second in the first room, a logo began to come up then it turned off again. Could part of this have been the port?
3. The 3rd party RGB cord. Can an RGB cord (from Japan/NTSC) affect a console? If i get a new one is it unsafe?

Thanks for taking the time to read through this.

Note: I am in North America so no PAL land power issues or TV issues should be in play here ...

[Urzu402]

The voltage on the power adapter seems high I don't know if that matters, but if you need an AC adapter for either a famicom or super famicom use a genesis model 1 or sega cd power adapter.

[Urzu402]

Also another tip is NEVER use an NES adapter it will ruin your system

[Satoshi_Matrix]

Two things you did wrong.

12v - while the system handle 12v, its rated for 9 (though can run on as little as 7.8v) meaning its voltage regulator is wasting ~3v as heat

I also strongly suspect you incorrectly fed the SFC the complete wrong polarity. Like the Famicom, the Super Famicom requires 9v DC with a polarity of center pin negative.

Like this:

+ ---C--- -

NOT

- ---C--- +

You blew the 7805 voltage regulator by feeding it the wrong polarity. Open the system and replace that, and then make sure you only ever use the proper power supply.

[encephalon]

Two things you did wrong.

12v - while the system handle 12v, its rated for 9 (though can run on as little as 7.8v) meaning its voltage regulator is wasting ~3v as heat

I also strongly suspect you incorrectly fed the SFC the complete wrong polarity. Like the Famicom, the Super Famicom requires 9v DC with a polarity of center pin negative.

Like this:

+ ---C--- -

NOT

- ---C--- +

You blew the 7805 voltage regulator by feeding it the wrong polarity. Open the system and replace that, and then make sure you only ever use the proper power supply.

This is what happened. The wrong polarity was tested first, then the correct polarity. Because the power cord around the back of the system was awkward with the AV cable plugged in, it fell out and it was tested both ways again (because if it doesn't matter to Radioshack employees, does it matter at all?) Of course, the Radioshack employees had no real clue what they were doing.

Thanks.

[ccovell]

The SNES/SFC also contains a fuse which you should test before replacing the voltage regulator.

[Zach]

Don't do anything based on this info, but I am definitely running my Super Famicom with a US NES power adapter outputting 9 volts AC. Just throwing that out there. Am I crazy? Do I have some weird modded system?

[sloan]

The SNES/SFC also contains a fuse which you should test before replacing the voltage regulator.

Seconded. The infamous SNES power-on fuse is easy to locate inside the console, and readily available at Radio Shack. In fact, you can test if this is the issue by simply bridging the fuse connections with a piece of wire. If the system works with the wire bridge in place, then the fuse is inexpensive to replace. Do not consider the wire bridge as a permanent fix as the fuse protects other components within the circuit.

[Urzu402]

Don't do anything based on this info, but I am definitely running my Super Famicom with a US NES power adapter outputting 9 volts AC. Just throwing that out there. Am I crazy? Do I have some weird modded system?

is it a first party power supply? or 3rd party? because 3rd party NES power supplies output DC which an NES can run on.

[Zach]

is it a first party power supply? or 3rd party? because 3rd party NES power supplies output DC which an NES can run on.

It's definitely first party. An actual Nintendo brand NES AC adapter. And I'm fairly sure I've used a few different NES adapters over the years, just grabbing whatever was available when I wanted to hook up the SFC.

[encephalon]

I may try and repair the SFC, but I'm going to acquire another model and the original power adapter first. If I get the original up and running again, I'll put it back into "circulation" for others to enjoy. I'm a little concerned that my initial problems with the video cable and nothing appearing on screen were a separate issue., but maybe not. But thank you for all of your posts and I'm convinced now that it's the polarity in particular that killed it.

[kedawa]

It's definitely first party. An actual Nintendo brand NES AC adapter. And I'm fairly sure I've used a few different NES adapters over the years, just grabbing whatever was available when I wanted to hook up the SFC.

The two consoles don't even use the same style of power connector, and the NES adapter has no bridge rectifier, so it outputs AC instead of the needed DC.
Something is definitely strange about your setup.

[Satoshi_Matrix]

Zach either you're wrong, or you're doing it wrong.

Post a picture of the AC adapter plug and also the back of your system.

[Gameguy]

The two consoles don't even use the same style of power connector, and the NES adapter has no bridge rectifier, so it outputs AC instead of the needed DC.
Something is definitely strange about your setup.
There's two types of official NES adapters. The most common is the type that you described that outputs AC current, the second rarer type outputs DC voltage and looks more like a laptop or printer adapter as a brick with a long power cord that plugs into the wall. I have both types of adapters, the rarer type is from early production consoles.

I would assume that he's using the rarer type of adapter, it's the only thing I can think of unless he's mistaken about what adapter he's using.

[LimitedEditionMuseum]

This was so funny to me.
"Open the system and replace that". All I know about electronics is the correct way to put batteries is and you made it sound that simple.


QUOTE=Satoshi_Matrix;1946111]Two things you did wrong.

12v - while the system handle 12v, its rated for 9 (though can run on as little as 7.8v) meaning its voltage regulator is wasting ~3v as heat

I also strongly suspect you incorrectly fed the SFC the complete wrong polarity. Like the Famicom, the Super Famicom requires 9v DC with a polarity of center pin negative.

Like this:

+ ---C--- -

NOT

- ---C--- +

You blew the 7805 voltage regulator by feeding it the wrong polarity. Open the system and replace that, and then make sure you only ever use the proper power supply.[/QUOTE]

[Ed Oscuro]

Call around and ask if anybody will be willing to desolder the old one and put a new one in. That's presumably all it takes. You'll need to get a new voltage regulator but if you can find somebody you can solder, they might also know where to order a new one.

Actually - while I wouldn't second guess Satoshi here, I would say that the system should probably have a number of components checked with a multimeter. Again, somebody with soldering equipment and skills will surely have one of these, and should be able to find datasheets for many of the components for testing.

Otherwise, there are probably some hobbyists who will take the system in the mail, do the work, and ship it back to you.

But yeah, the first thing you need to do is take a picture so people can see what exactly went in.

It's a good reminder to me to find and label my systems and wall warts - I've got a few different types floating around here myself (the one that came with my A/V Famicom doesn't have the Nintendo molded case we are familiar with, but has a shiny label and might not even be branded Nintendo).

[ccovell]

The Japanese SFC has the same 9vDC power connector as the PC-Engine, MD/Gen, SMS, Game Gear, etc. It's the US SNES that has the funny connector. So a US NES adaptor plug will fit, though certainly not a recommended power source.

[Zach]

I'm back with some more info. The question of how to power a Super Famicom pops up on here and other forums every few years, so hopefully we can come up with the definitive answer this time. And while this works for me, I have no idea if it will work for anyone else. My personal Super Famicom is the only one I've ever used.


Zach either you're wrong, or you're doing it wrong.

Post a picture of the AC adapter plug and also the back of your system.

No problem. Here are some pictures that clearly (I hope) show that this is an original first party NES AC adapter with a plug that fits the Super Famicom.

These thumbnails link to larger versions for a closer look.
http://www.zachcollier.com/SFC/SFC1t.jpg (http://www.zachcollier.com/SFC/SFC1.jpg) http://www.zachcollier.com/SFC/SFC2t.jpg (http://www.zachcollier.com/SFC/SFC2.jpg) http://www.zachcollier.com/SFC/SFC3t.jpg (http://www.zachcollier.com/SFC/SFC3.jpg) http://www.zachcollier.com/SFC/SFC4t.jpg (http://www.zachcollier.com/SFC/SFC4.jpg)

As you can see in the 3rd picture, the back of the SFC does, indeed, call for DC, but this adapter, outputting AC, works just fine (and has been working fine since I got the system in 1999). A mystery how it works, for sure, but it definitely does work without harming the system.

Maybe someone with some electronics knowledge can chime in with an explanation. For example, maybe there are diodes protecting the SFC from getting fried by the AC current, but it's still taking juice every time the current alternates to the correct pin, and capacitors are storing up enough to be able to deliver a steady stream of power? Obviously I don't have an actual understanding of these components, but it could be something along these lines.


The two consoles don't even use the same style of power connector, and the NES adapter has no bridge rectifier, so it outputs AC instead of the needed DC.
Something is definitely strange about your setup.

The Super Famicom does use the same connector as the North American NES, but it definitely IS different from the connector on the North American SNES. That uses a weird connector with a very small center pin, unlike anything I've seen on any of my other consoles (of which I've had many, like all of us around here!)

And if you want to see this in action, I uploaded a video to YouTube showing the system actually running on this exact AC adapter.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vi6K-LmS5Us

Feel free to repost any of this the next time this question comes up, here or elsewhere, as it almost certainly will!

[kedawa]

Freaky.

find somebody you can solder

Super freaky.

[Ed Oscuro]

As you can see in the 3rd picture, the back of the SFC does, indeed, call for DC, but this adapter, outputting AC, works just fine (and has been working fine since I got the system in 1999). A mystery how it works, for sure, but it definitely does work without harming the system.

Maybe someone with some electronics knowledge can chime in with an explanation. For example, maybe there are diodes protecting the SFC from getting fried by the AC current, but it's still taking juice every time the current alternates to the correct pin, and capacitors are storing up enough to be able to deliver a steady stream of power?
I don't really have electronics knowledge, but it's not mysterious. The system is set up so that the power goes through a rectifier (which converts AC to DC and ) but feeding DC into this is no problem (although perhaps the current level drops slightly). Indeed diodes are involved, as there are in modern rectifier design.

this (http://www.dummies.com/how-to/content/how-power-supplies-turn-ac-into-dc-in-electronic-c.html) looks like a good explanation, and I picked it because it mentions the "ripple" description people give to AC current. Although being "For Dummies" makes it easier for me to understand, too! ;)

In the good old days they used "discrete components" to manufacture rectifying circuits. In the really good old days (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercury_arc_valve) they could get really big (although it should be said that modern rectifiers still get bigger to handle larger currents, but in any case, I couldn't see that glass octopus fitting into an NES anytime soon). Today we use Thyristors (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thyristor).

[kedawa]

I just don't see why the system would have a bridge rectifier built in when it's meant to be used with a power adapter that has its own bridge rectifier.
That kind of redundancy is rare in the mass production of electronics, where manufacturers try to cut out anything they can get away with to save a few cents.

[SparTonberry]

I wonder why the toploader NES (which I think has the same power specs as the SFC and SNES) still recommends using the NES-002 AC adapter.

[Ed Oscuro]

Four pins, and not too big:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Bridge_rectifiers.jpg

I should point out that I think I've read about a rectifier being inside the SNES at some point.

I wonder why the toploader NES (which I think has the same power specs as the SFC and SNES) still recommends using the NES-002 AC adapter.
I don't know about the toploader NES, but the AV Famicom recommends the HVC-002, which also works on the SFC and SNES.

I think that part of what could be going on is current draws - which you can see at work on Xbox 360 power brick revisions. I traded the older brick to somebody who needed it to run their console, and got one of the newer models (which outputs less current) which works fine with my system. If the old power bricks are the same, there may be excess capacity in some situations. Likewise with computer power supplies, a high-capacity PSU will not cause power brownouts to affect the computer operation, but it often is highly inefficient if the system draws far less power than the PSU is rated for. For Nintendo, and its users, any inefficiency worries would have been overcome by the availability of existing supplies and the existing manufacturing capacity.

[Pikkon]

I know on a nes it converts the AC to DC,does a snes/super fami have a bridge rectifier,I know a pal snes has one.

edit.

Found this
http://www.famicomworld.com/forum/index.php?topic=8524.0

[Ed Oscuro]

Found this
http://www.famicomworld.com/forum/index.php?topic=8524.0
Excellent! It mentions the bit about efficiency too. Should be correct info.

Makes me wonder if it's possible to mod a SNES with a full wave rectifier (http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Comparision_between_half_wave_and_full_wave_rectif ier). Probably not because of the different period.

[theclaw]

The Japanese SFC has the same 9vDC power connector as the PC-Engine, MD/Gen, SMS, Game Gear, etc. It's the US SNES that has the funny connector. So a US NES adaptor plug will fit, though certainly not a recommended power source.

Yeah US Game Gear power is not recommended either. Our version was switched to center positive. Where it's center negative in most of the rest of the world.

[Parodius Duh!]

Should have waited and bought an official SFC adapter. A good rule of thumb is to always use the official adapter for any system. Third party anything is just trouble waiting to happen.. That and if you are in the US/Canada, use a voltage step down converter. Pumping 20+ extra volts (and as high as 60-80 if you ever have a power spike in your home) into the system is generally a bad idea. I know a ton of people think its fine to straight up plug a Japanese console into a US/Canadian outlet. Its not.

[Zach]

Should have waited and bought an official SFC adapter. A good rule of thumb is to always use the official adapter for any system. Third party anything is just trouble waiting to happen.. That and if you are in the US/Canada, use a voltage step down converter. Pumping 20+ extra volts (and as high as 60-80 if you ever have a power spike in your home) into the system is generally a bad idea. I know a ton of people think its fine to straight up plug a Japanese console into a US/Canadian outlet. Its not.

That's not really how AC adapters work.

For example, I've been running my Famicom Disk System with the original, official Japanese Nintendo AC Adapter, specifically made for the FDS (HVC-025, maybe? It's not in front of me right now, so I'm not sure), in the US on 110-120 volts AC with no problems for more than a decade. It doesn't even heat up excessively. And it provides a consistent (checked with a multimeter) DC voltage (9V, I think) output. It doesn't put out more DC volts because I'm feeding it 10+ VAC than it would get in Japan, so there's no harm to the console.

I tested my Super Famicom again with a couple other power adapters. A 1st gen Sega Genesis adapter and a Radio Shack universal AC adapter (set to the correct polarity, of course!), and they both worked great. So the SFC seems to be very flexible in terms of what it can take. AC, DC, and a wide range of voltages.

[Satoshi_Matrix]

holy hell Zack NEVER power a Famicom or Super Famicom with an NES-001 Power Supply! That's the WORST thing you could do!

Unless your Super Famicom has been modded with a bridge rectifier which is NOT stock.

As I commented in your video, the only possible explanation to why this works is your SuFami was refurbished and someone bizarrely added a bridge rectifier in that Super Famicom to allow exactly what you're doing here - feeding it the wrong voltage type.

I have seen many people trying to use an NES AC 9V power supply with the results always being catastrophic. Stock Super NES/Super Famicom motherboards do not have a bridge rectifiers and cannot be powered with AC. This is why Nintendo of America changed the barrel shape of the SNES - to prevent idiot kids from plugging in an NES Power Supper into their SNES and BOOM you've got a dead SNES. The Super Famicom doesn't have this safeguard because the preexisting Famicom power supply is also 9v DC center pin negative.

Honestly, you really ought to collect your NES power supplies (if you're like most of us, you've got more than one) and put them in a bag and store them somewhere far, far away from your consoles. The NES can be powered by pretty much anything - AC, DC, negative pin, positive pin, 9v, 12v, a variable power supply, linear power supply, whatever. On the other hand, the NES Power Supply RUINS other consoles. There is no reason for anyone to use it unless their ONLY system with a barrel plug is an NES. Otherwise it's a disaster waiting to happen.

[Zach]

As I commented in your video, the only possible explanation to why this works is your SuFami was refurbished and someone bizarrely added a bridge rectifier in that Super Famicom to allow exactly what you're doing here - feeding it the wrong voltage type.


Well, now I'm REALLY curious. I'm going to crack open my Super Famicom and see if I can find any mods or evidence of tampering. I wonder if I'll find the same guts as those in the article mentioned here...



Found this
http://www.famicomworld.com/forum/index.php?topic=8524.0

...or if there are multiple revisions floating around and I have something different. If anyone knows how to identify production dates or revisions by serial number, mine is clearly visible in the photos I posted earlier.

I do remember seeing other posts and articles on other sites about this topic, confirming that others are using US NES adapters for Super Famicoms, but that was years ago. But in that topic on Famicom World, Frank_fjs does say this: "MISCONCEPTION: Using an Australian Super Nintendo PSU in a Japanese Super Famicom will fry it due to the AC output." so this probably also applies to the US adapter. And then "80sFREAK" follows up with a photo and identifies the large diode that he assumes is doing the protecting.

In any case, I've been running this SFC with an NES AC adapter for about 12 years now, so I'm not too worried about messing up the system. But just in case, I might start using a Genesis power adapter. Better late than never, right?

[Satoshi_Matrix]

Yeah. You're playing with fire, even if you've unwittingly being given fireproof gloves. Still better not to. Also the message should be clear - just because Zach has some sort of anomaly SuFami that allows AC, do not assume yours is like that. Anyone reading this should always remember to be extremely wary of 72 pin NES power supplies for either the NES-001 or the NES-101. Both output AC, and both are [normally] a death sentience to your precious retro console. Also, always pay attention to polarity. If you are unsure what your system takes, look it up or ask someone. You never want to play guessing games when it comes to electricity.

[Ed Oscuro]

What reason do we have to think that power rectifiers aren't standard in the SNES or SFC? I think it's been pretty clearly established that there are plenty of units that have them - it's not an especially expensive or large component. Did somebody do a component breakdown and find there wasn't one?

I would still try to use an appropriate power supply because of the inefficiency of a rectifier, of course. However, it should be mentioned that if the voltages are off slightly, over time components properties can shift slightly so that they begin to reject "accurate" voltages, and thus the "wrong" input will, over time, be what parts in the system expect! So it appears to be in the case of some arcade components over time (which is why there are voltage-altering pots on many boards). However, I don't know if the components in a SNES are likely to be bothered by this. I think it is more likely that a better-filtered newer power supply will generally improve the longevity and performance (if slightly) of an old system.

[Satoshi_Matrix]

because blown Super Famicoms due to people incorrectly assuming they can use an NES power supply solely because the port fits is a very common problem that I see happen very often in forums and in actual retro game stores.

Now it IS possible very late model Super Famicoms included a rectifier since the system was still in production in Japan until early 2000, but I don't think it likely Nintendo would add components, rather than simply cost reduce as they had done with the Super Famicom Jr.

[Zach]

because blown Super Famicoms due to people incorrectly assuming they can use an NES power supply solely because the port fits is a very common problem that I see happen very often in forums and in actual retro game stores.

Now it IS possible very late model Super Famicoms included a rectifier since the system was still in production in Japan until early 2000, but I don't think it likely Nintendo would add components, rather than simply cost reduce as they had done with the Super Famicom Jr.

This is a good thought. I don't know when my Super Famicom was manufactured, but I do know the serial number, and I think I remember that there is a revision number printed on the motherboard, but that might have been on my US SNES. Also the yellowing of the plastic seems to indicate that it's a pretty old system (might not actually mean anything, though).

If you have any blown systems, or can link to posts where others' systems have been blown, maybe we can compare serial numbers and figure out if there's a correlation between manufacture date and the ability to handle AC current. All I've ever seen are posts where owners post, like myself, that they are successfully running from an NES adapter.

I do still plan to post some pictures of the inside of my console soon. Maybe both the SFC and the SNES for comparison. Is there a particular part of the motherboard(s) that would be most helpful to focus on?

It would be great to have a solid answer for someone who gets a SFC without a power adapter. I know we have the "better safe than sorry" answer to just run with an actual first party Super Famicom adapter, but when that's not an option, I'd like to know for sure what's correct so that people can get their systems running as easily/cheaply as possible.

[kedawa]

NES Power Supper
Sounds delicious.