Sega Saturn vs Turbo Grafx CD

[IHatedSega]

In all regions combined, who had the best library of games? Or if you want to answer it a different way, which was best in Japan and then in America?

The Turbo library has a lot of unique shooters, RPGs and Castelvania. The Japanese Saturn has a bigger range of more well known classics, some came to America, but besides those it doesnt have much to offer. They both have good fighting games too, both required cards or cartridges to work. Both consoles had great libraries which a lot of people missed out on for various different reasons and were in 3rd place against their main competitors.

Which one do you like more, and why? :) And can you specifically name games that are often overlooked but are amazing? Im really getting interested in these libraries.

[Orion Pimpdaddy]

This thread is how flame wars begin.

Seriously though, I would love to judge the entire library of games for both systems, but I haven't played either either enough to base a judgement.

[IHatedSega]

Its just for healthy discussion. They have things in common and a ton of people havent experienced their classics, so I want to hear what people think who have.

[BricatSegaFan]

I love both way too much. But if I had to pick it would be Saturn.

I have to say my Saturn gets the most playtime and I collect for it aggressively

[Jack_Burton_BYOAC]

This thread is how flame wars begin.


This isn't 4chan, reddit, youtube, gamespy or some other 13 year old's hangout. I think we can express our opinions with civility.

I also, admittedly do not have much experience with either system. I haven't even owned a Turbo CD. I did just finish playthroughs of Valis III, Rondo of Blood, and Lords of Thunder. I was very, very impressed.

I have owned a Saturn, but didn't dig too deeply into the system library at the time. It is high on my list of future aquirements.

I think I would lean towards the Saturn having the overall stronger library. You have at the very least:

Grandia
Radiant Silvergun
X-men vs Street Fighter

Any of which was enough reason to own a system by themselves.

One other thing that springs to mind for me is that the Turbo CD really felt like it was doing something with the CD audio, like the games really put a lot of emphasis on the new tech for the time. The Saturn had awesome music too, but I feel like many of the Turbo CD games I've tried almost play like the point is to experience the OST while playing a game, not the other way around.

[wiggyx]

Saturn also has Castlevania, unique shooters, and great RPGs.

I can't even consider the TGCD when placed by the Saturn. Maybe the Sega CD, but not the Saturn.


As far as fighters go, I can't think of more than 1 TG-16 fighter that I'd ever care about, not to mention having to hunt down a special controller just to make it playable :/

[Ed Oscuro]

Here is a bit of ancient wisdom: Buy good games, ignore bad ones.

There is no commandment that you must buy all the games, even the poor ones, or that you can only buy games for one system. I've had PC-Engine and Saturn games for years without either system.

Both the TG (actually forget that - go for the PC-Engine CD-ROM games) and the Saturn have games that are, in my view, irreplaceable. As I would focus only on those, it seems like the question being posed can mislead you into trying for a goal that you probably don't care about.

I would prefer it if the PC-Engine and Saturn had stronger showings in original titles, but when you consider that Dracula X (on PC-Engine) and Taromaru alone will easily set you back half a grand, that's either a lot of money to spend, or a lot of crap games you don't have to worry about.

I think the next PC-Engine game I'll buy is Earnest Evans, unless I find a reasonably-priced good entry in the Soldier series first. I wanted to like Kaze Kiri but it doesn't seem to control well.

[gameofyou]

My vote goes to the Saturn.

[Ed Oscuro]

My vote goes to the Saturn.
What does that mean? You'd rather buy Legacy of War for its 3D glasses than Dracula X?

Nobody's on a desert island, here (and if I was, I'd sacrifice a bunch of early-style huge Saturn boxes to get all the PC-Engine hardware).

[The 1 2 P]

I've never owned or played the TG CD but I do actively collect for the PC Engine. Normally when discussing the Saturn compared to other systems(usually the PS1 and N64) I have to point out that the Saturn's US library is pretty weak. But it's Japanese library is on a whole other level. However, in this one case I'd have to say that even the Saturn's US library is better than the TG CD just based on available titles that I know of. Now when you compare the Japanese Saturn to the PC Engine the discussion gets alot more interesting. There are several good titles for both, although(as always) certain genres are better represented on either system. But all in all my vote would be for the Saturn, mainly because I use mine for it's deep treasure trove of import titles. Actually, I have a US Saturn and not a single US Saturn game. That alludes to how much I enjoy it's import titles.

[Jack_Burton_BYOAC]

As far as fighters go, I can't think of more than 1 TG-16 fighter that I'd ever care about, not to mention having to hunt down a special controller just to make it playable :/

Fighting Street aka Street Fighter I is interesting to look at from a historical perspective. Also, the novelty of SF2 on the system is strong since it would have been one of the best ports back in the day.

[Mr Mort]

...I have to point out that the Saturn's US library is pretty weak. But it's Japanese library is on a whole other level...

Agreed. The TG/PCE CD has a lot of great games, particurlarly shooters, but if you include the import games, the Saturn has plenty of awesome shooters as well. Not to mention, I feel like the Saturn's library as a whole is more well-rounded. Fighting games, puzzle games, RGS, Racing, etc. You don't see many decent fighters on the TG-16, even with the imports.

I feel like this is an unfair comparison tho. The Saturn is clearly the more technologically advanced system.

[wiggyx]

Fighting Street aka Street Fighter I is interesting to look at from a historical perspective. Also, the novelty of SF2 on the system is strong since it would have been one of the best ports back in the day.

True, but it's a miserable game, and I can play SF2 on the Saturn via any one of the many collections. I'm looking at it strictly from a "games that I want to play" perspective. So, for me, there's ONE fighter on the TG/PCE that I'd ever care about and dozens on the Saturn.

[7th lutz]

I don't a Turbo Gafx CD, but I did play a couple of its games on the vc. The only reasons I don't have it is I heard bad about things the durability of Turbo Duo and Pc Engine Duo R is on the expensive side on Ebay.

I am a Saturn owner. I can't read Japanese and that means no Japanese RPGS. The Saturn has very library. I only have 12 imports, but there is a lot of imports that I still want for the system. The Saturn has impressive shooters, good compilations, and has good Puzzle games.

The Saturn as whole to me well rounded as a system.

[Tokimemofan]

The Turbo CD was an unmitigated disaster in the US and a no show in EU, most games are bad or are too rare for any sane player to want, The Sega Saturn isn't that great either but has a fair number of affordable and good games both the US and EU libraries are comparable, with a few good region exclusives. The Japanese lineup for both is great, worth noting that many Turbo CD publishers moved to the Sega Saturn after the PC-FX failed, particularly the ones involved with dating sims and shoot'em ups. Both systems are hit or miss in the US and EU but are great in JP.

[kupomogli]

This is an unfair comparison. If it was against the Sega CD then the TG16CD would win, but this is weighed heavily in the Saturn's favor.

[Tron 2.0]

I don't see how this is a fair comparison but both console have a few things in common though.

1.Poor support in the u.s
2.Both had a accessory that made use of fighters the arcade pro card and,the 1&4 meg ram cartridge.
3.Both were a success in japan but failed in the u.s
4.Poor marketing in the u.s but better in japan

So there ya go ;)

[A.C. Sativa]

As far as collecting... Hmmm... The TGCD is probably rarer, but the Saturn will probably bring in more money.

As far as actually playing them... they both go straight up for sale while I go play a decent system. They both suck. Cue the hatred, but I'm not trolling, I'm dead serious. Give me a system that had more than 10 good games that were released in the U.S. SNES, PS1, N64, NES, take your pick.

[theclaw]

Oh come on. This kind of comparison doesn't touch the realm of fair. Try to find an American TGCD game that can compete head to head with Mega Man X4, and maybe some inkling of a case can be drawn up. Closest thing I can name are the Bonk games.

Not to mention video output. RGB vs composite (TGCD uses the expansion port, blocking TG16's RGB pins) is so one-sided it's barely worthy of mention.

[kupomogli]

As far as actually playing them... they both go straight up for sale while I go play a decent system. They both suck. Cue the hatred, but I'm not trolling, I'm dead serious. Give me a system that had more than 10 good games that were released in the U.S. SNES, PS1, N64, NES, take your pick.

Both the Saturn and TG16 are good. Most of the best Saturn games are already on the PSX. It's got some good games on its own, but if you have most of the best PSX games then there's not much point in getting it unless you want to play those good games that aren't on the PSX.

The TG16 is also good, but the CD kind of sucks because unless you live in Japan there's very few good games on it. The better games are also pretty expensive.

[Jack_Burton_BYOAC]

As far as collecting... Hmmm... The TGCD is probably rarer, but the Saturn will probably bring in more money.

As far as actually playing them... they both go straight up for sale while I go play a decent system. They both suck. Cue the hatred, but I'm not trolling, I'm dead serious. Give me a system that had more than 10 good games that were released in the U.S. SNES, PS1, N64, NES, take your pick.

I think your personal taste in games might be clouding your judgement here. Even counting only US releases the Saturn has far more than 10 good games.

Without looking at a game list:

Panzer Dragoon Saga
Daytona USA
Virtua Fighter 2
Fighters Megamix
Street Fighter Alpha 1
Street Fighter Alpha 2
Panzer Dragoon
Panzer Dragoon Zwei
NiGHTS: Into Dreams
Guardian Heroes

Because I owned them!


Both the Saturn and TG16 are good. Most of the best Saturn games are already on the PSX. It's got some good games on its own, but if you have most of the best PSX games then there's not much point in getting it unless you want to play those good games that aren't on the PSX.

The TG16 is also good, but the CD kind of sucks because unless you live in Japan there's very few good games on it. The better games are also pretty expensive.

I would say the "best" Saturn game is probably Grandia, and it is certainly inferior on the PS1. Being Japan only does not count negatively towards it.

Following closely to that are RAM cart fighting games. X-men vs Street Fighter on the system blew the ps1 version out of the water in every way, and MSH was also quite a bit better. Street Fighter Zero 3 was the definitive home version until the ps2 alpha collection.

[theclaw]

yeah other than the most insistent purists who'd question most ps2 collections since they tend to lack 240p mode.

[FrankSerpico]

I don't understand the purpose or point of even comparing two consoles from different generations. This is even more pointless than the N64 vs MVS thread. What's next, debating the merits of the Game Gear vs tabletop Coleco games?

[IHatedSega]

I don't understand the purpose or point of even comparing two consoles from different generations. This is even more pointless than the N64 vs MVS thread. What's next, debating the merits of the Game Gear vs tabletop Coleco games?

It opens up different points of views and brings things into different perspectives. They have things in common with each other, and so I thought why not make a thread about them? Also I got cdr's Friday and have been burning games all weekend. This is the list of games I got for each system:

Turbo CD:
Ginga Fukei Densetsu - Sapphire
Ginga Ojousama Densetsu Yuna 2 - Eien no Princess
Gates of Thunder
Lords of Thunder
Legend of Xanadu
Raxxanber 2
Books of Y's 1&2
Castlevania Dracula X
Star Parodia
Serei Senshi Spriggan

Saturn:
Nights Into Dreams
Hyper Duel
Christmas Nights
Guardian Heroes
Radiant Silvergun
Marvel Super Heroes vs Capcom
Fighters Megamix
Sengoku Ace/Blaede
Magic Knight Rayearth
Panzer Dragoon
Elan Doree
Astal
Waku Waku 7
Keio Flying Squadron 2
Princess Crown
Castlevania Symphony of The Night (you can play as Maria and Richter up front :)

Im really enjoying these games a lot as I test played them. On Turbo side I did get a ton of shooters, but I couldnt find all the fighting games I've seen it has.

[Bojay1997]

I don't understand the purpose or point of even comparing two consoles from different generations. This is even more pointless than the N64 vs MVS thread. What's next, debating the merits of the Game Gear vs tabletop Coleco games?

I agree. The whole OP was put together in a way designed to try and generate controversy and debate and I'm pleased nobody has taken the troll bait.

[Jack_Burton_BYOAC]

yeah other than the most insistent purists who'd question most ps2 collections since they tend to lack 240p mode.

They do? That seems rather stupid since the ps2 is capable of displaying 240p just fine.

[IHatedSega]

I agree. The whole OP was put together in a way designed to try and generate controversy and debate and I'm pleased nobody has taken the troll bait.

Uhhh, friendly conversation isnt debate. And how is asking "Hey these two systems have things in common, which do you like more?" Isnt trolling, its not like these consoles went up against each other and there was a ton of passion about them at the time. Yes, I was influenced in part by the MVS vs N64 thread, why not make more threads like this? A guy asked Genesis vs SNES, people didnt see that as trolling. Why not go for different kind of stuff and ask weird questions?
Heres a video about the Turbo CD if people dont know much about the library.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AVkql7fIbNc

[Ed Oscuro]

Yes, I was influenced in part by the MVS vs N64 thread, why not make more threads like this?
because of years of experience of these things happening

Anyway, like I said, there's no reason for the two systems to actually be in competition now. They're historical. Even back at the time it was possible to own both at once. I really don't see the point of it when you admit that.

[wiggyx]

Most of the best Saturn games are already on the PSX.

Pffffffffffffff.

Panzer Dragoon 1, 2, and Saga
Dragon Force
Shining Force 3
Burning Force
Magic Knight Rayearth
X-Men vs SF & Marvel vs SF (yes, I know these were released for the PS1, but there's absolutely no reason to EVER play the PS versions save for LULZ)
Radiant Silvergun
Dark Savior
Legend of Oasis
Castlevania (extra dungeon segments for Saturn only)
House of the Dead
Albert Odessy
Darkstalkers 3/Vampire Savior
Nights
10 freakin' player Bomberman!!!
Princess Crown
etc.

[Jack_Burton_BYOAC]

because of years of experience of these things happening

Anyway, like I said, there's no reason for the two systems to actually be in competition now. They're historical. Even back at the time it was possible to own both at once. I really don't see the point of it when you admit that.

Okay, you don't like the thread. Maybe, don't open it?

These sorts of theoretical discussions are not intended to crown a victor between two consoles, rather they are supposed to stimulate an appreciation for what made each of them good in their own way by comparing and contrasting.

[Ed Oscuro]

It has more to do with the general forum quality, mang. It's not just a matter of taste, it's about having something worthwhile to talk about, and also promoting something beyond blind full-system collecting (which ends up being a waste). There are lots of reasons I could name (some selfish, yep) why blind system fanboyism and winner-takes-all views harm the hobby. I've been around long enough to see this play out. But have fun all the same! You'll eventually grow tired of it too.

More to the point, though, I would have stayed away if I had thought that the OP was just asking for that. You can see my replies on the previous page if you want to see what I was responding to.

[IHatedSega]

Are there any games people REALLY want to play that would make them buy a Saturn nor Turbo Duo to play? And Maybe I should have compared the whole Turbo Grafx/PC Engine plus CD to the Saturn? What do you guys think then?

[understatement]

What’s up with these Vs. threads… so random.

I will say this; any system Victor Ireland put a game out for is a good system and both of these have that so debate over.

[Ed Oscuro]

Are there any games people REALLY want to play that would make them buy a Saturn nor Turbo Duo to play? And Maybe I should have compared the whole Turbo Grafx/PC Engine plus CD to the Saturn? What do you guys think then?
Dude, it's ok...but let me mention this; in the Classic Discussions subforum there should be topics about the best games for each system.

If you don't mind, what is your personal collection goal? I would personally never think to pit one system against another because, well...I can have both (if I want), without all the bad titles.

[Hawksmoor]

I agree. The whole OP was put together in a way designed to try and generate controversy and debate and I'm pleased nobody has taken the troll bait.

Seconded. The last "______ vs. ______" console debate I was remotely interested in was SNES vs. Genesis, and that was mostly due to my being in my early teens at the time and only having a Genesis.

Almost without exception, there are fantastic games for every released console that makes it worth owning and playing. A great game is a great game; it doesn't matter what system it happens to be on. Arbitrary and subjective comparisons between systems and games, in an attempt to somehow quantify one's quality as being superior over another, is a pointless waste of time.

We're all here because we love games. Why some among us feel the need to ascertain certain consoles' supposed superiority over others, I can't say for sure; I suspect it must fulfill some psychological need to establish a clear hierarchy of quality.

[kupomogli]

Pffffffffffffff.

Panzer Dragoon 1, 2, and Saga
Dragon Force
Shining Force 3
Burning Force
Magic Knight Rayearth
X-Men vs SF & Marvel vs SF (yes, I know these were released for the PS1, but there's absolutely no reason to EVER play the PS versions save for LULZ)
Radiant Silvergun
Dark Savior
Legend of Oasis
Castlevania (extra dungeon segments for Saturn only)
House of the Dead
Albert Odessy
Darkstalkers 3/Vampire Savior
Nights
10 freakin' player Bomberman!!!
Princess Crown
etc.

I didn't mean specifically that it didn't have any games. I meant "most of the best games the Saturn have is on the PSX" in comparison to how many exclusives we've come to expect on older consoles. The Saturn is sort of like the PS360 of the 32/64bit gen. Back when it was released, unless you were a fanboy, the PS3 wasn't worth owning outside of BC if you had a 360 or if you were interested in the 360 because most of the best games the PS3 had were also on the 360. While it's the other way around now, where the PS3 has more exclusives worth owning and most of the best games the 360 has are on the PS3. However, if you own one system or the other and don't have all the better multiconsole games, there's really not too much of a reason to buy the other console.

I didn't mean it as anything against the system specifically. Hopefully people get what I mean by the PS360 comparison. If you currently one, there's not much sense in getting the other, and the same for the Saturn. If you have the PSX, unless you really want to get one of the games on the Saturn or a lot of exclusive games on the Saturn, there's really no sense in getting it since you have a lot of exclusives you can purchase on the PSX and a lot of multiconsole titles.

[IHatedSega]

Dude, it's ok...but let me mention this; in the Classic Discussions subforum there should be topics about the best games for each system.

If you don't mind, what is your personal collection goal? I would personally never think to pit one system against another because, well...I can have both (if I want), without all the bad titles.

I just wanted to make a thread where there would some tal kabotu both systems and we could all learn from each other about some games on each console that arent talked about. Its hard to find play through videos for Turbo CD games, especially some of the ones I listed that I have now.

I feel like people just read the title of the thread and havent paid attention to what else Ive said in here. Im just trying to have a conversation about both consoles. I hoped someone would show up and say how great the Turbo CD library is, but it hasnt really happened. So, ok I wont make another of these.

[Gamevet]

Normally when discussing the Saturn compared to other systems(usually the PS1 and N64) I have to point out that the Saturn's US library is pretty weak.

The North American lineup is actually pretty damn good. I only have 4 imports for my Saturn and the other 75 games were bought in the States.


RPGs

Panzer Dragoon Saga
Shining in the Holy Ark


Action RPGs

Magic Knight Rayearth
Dark Savior
Shining Wisdom
Legend of Oasis


Strategy/SRPG

Iron Storm
Shining Force III
Mystaria: The Realms of Lore
Dragon Force


Racing

Daytona USA
Daytona USA C.E.
Sega Rally 95
Scorcher
Wipeout (I like it better than the PSX version)
Manx TT
Hang-On GP


Shooters/Shmup

Galactic Attack (aka Layer Section)
Darius Gaiden
Panzer Dragoon
Panzer Dragoon Zwei


Fighters

Virtua Fighter Kids
Virtua Fighter Remix
Virtua Fighter 2
Marvel Super Heroes
X-Men: COTA (frame-rate kind of sucks though)
Fighting Vipers
Fighter's Megamix
Ultimate MK3
Street Fighter Collection
Street Fighter Alpha
Night Warriors


Air Combat

Wing Arms
Sky Target
Thunder Strike
Soviet Strike (sorta air combat)

Mech

GunGriffon
Virtual-On


Platformer

Burning Rangers
Mega-Man X4
Astal (a little over-rated)
Shinobi Legions
Bug
Croc
Rayman
Skeleton Warriors


Sports

World-Wide Soccer
World Series Baseball 98
Decathlete
Pebble Beach Golf


Lightgun games

Virtua Cop
Virtua Cop 2
House of the Dead
Maximum Force



And everything else

Last Gladiators (yeah, the Japanese sequel is considered better, but it's still a pretty cool pinball game)
Tempest 2000
Die Hard Arcade
Guardian Heroes
Saturn Bomberman
Shinobi Legions
Enemy Zero
Sega Ages Vol 1
Nights
Saturn Bomberman
Worms



Yeah, there were a few good RPGs that got left in Japan, along with a lot of Shmups and Capcom Fighters, but the North American library wasn't too shabby.

[Greg2600]

You really can't fault TG-16 CD for lack of fighters, because the genre was in its infancy at the time. That said, collecting will cost you a fortune for both, that I can say. Especially if you want all the Japanese-only games. Saturn is definitely a better system, mainly because it's more powerful hardware. Controller is light years better too. Getting RGB out of it is much easier/cheaper, too. I love shooters (shmups) and TG has tons of them, but so does the Saturn. Ironically both system libraries, as I said, are heavily Japanese-influenced. Very little western development.

On graphics/sound/control, it's the Saturn. On 2D, simplicity, fun, TG-16. On collecting costs, toss up. Both expensive. Me personally I got a TG-16 not long ago, no CD, and the Turbo Everdrive to play all HuCard roms. While I would like the CD, I just can't go for the high prices for the units and games. Saturn is nice, but like someone said most of the big name games were ported to Playstation or PC.

[Edmond Dantes]

There's one thing I don't get. Why narrow it down to just "the Turbo CD"? If we're gonna do this, why not just the entire Turbo/PC Engine library? There is no way I know of to have a working CD unit without the Hucard unit anyway, so you might as well take it as a complete package.

That being said, this topic is like asking me to choose favorite children. I could, perhaps, be tempted to part with my Gamecube or N64... but you'll only take my Saturn and my PC Engine over my cold, dead body. And I will never die.

As for what each system has that makes it worthwhile? Well:

TurboGrafx:
* Splatterhouse
* Devil's Crush
* Bonk
* Galaga '88
* Military Madness
* Ys I-IV
* Dungeon Explorer
* Gate of Thunder
* early SNK fighters
* and probably a ton more that I forgot at the moment...

Saturn:
* Layer Section/Galactic Attack (Ray Force)
* Capcom Generations 1-5 (particularly the second one)
* NiGHTs Into Dreams
* Quake (yeah I warmed up to this one)
* D
* Enemy Zero
* Capcom fighters
* SNK fighters
* In the Hunt
* and again, probably so many more that have slipped my memory.

Not long ago I had both consoles hooked up side-by-side, and played them both near constantly. Ahh, the memories...

[FoxNtd]

Funny to see SS and PCE mentioned together. Just one thing missing. SFC. These three together represent the best of everything. Some of the best gaming machines with respect to their era/generation (not to imply they are necessarily superior to their competitors, just that they are very adequately equipped to perform), vast libraries spanning most or all genres, and just massive amounts of amazing games, amazing works in general, including the little details like graphic design, soundtrack compositions, etc.

I chose SFC over FC/FDS just by a hair due to the help of higher fidelity audio and 16-bit graphics combined with the much larger library. The extra power makes it easier to deliver some seriously impressive shit (e.g. Tales of Phantasia, Tactics Ogre)

The majority of the Japanese game consoles have their shining areas but these three were the brightest stars. With these three systems, I've already gotten tons of memories of amazing stories, imagery, and music, and there's still HUNDREDS more titles to go through I don't even have... :)

[Ed Oscuro]

They do? That seems rather stupid since the ps2 is capable of displaying 240p just fine.
I recall hearing something about this as well. However it works out, the Sega Ages games seem to support 240p (at least some of them), while many other games are 480i only. Ditto for games with 480p support (probably the more glamorous concern for many gamers during the PS2's lifespan).

[Rickstilwell1]

Does anyone think threads about old games sometimes make people want to buy them? I sometimes wonder if threads on forums are what drive prices of certain games up? Want to sell a game? Make a thread about it and get some discussion going just before you post it in the sales thread. Who has a Saturn and a TurboGrafx-16 CD for sale? Now's your chance while the topic is hot!

[Ed Oscuro]

Does anyone think threads about old games sometimes make people want to buy them? I sometimes wonder if threads on forums are what drive prices of certain games up? Want to sell a game? Make a thread about it and get some discussion going just before you post it in the sales thread. Who has a Saturn and a TurboGrafx-16 CD for sale? Now's your chance while the topic is hot!
Yes, I do! It's notable for games which get some massive coverage over a short span of time, like Zero Wing's 2000-2001-ish price spike. Another possibility is that games exist in small quantities; many games have been subjected to discussion on Shmups Forum and then we see a number of forum members want to buy an original board, and then the price ends up somewhat higher (at least for a while).

I used to wonder (a little) about how much "hoarding" contributes to higher prices, but I think I would mistake the end result of the purchase with the influence of the way in which it was bought. Surely reducing the number of units will cause a price increase (according to supply and demand) but I always used to think was a bigger problem was when people submitted to higher prices or made high bids without thinking. That, also, has been a highly influential trend on Shmups and some other niche arcade forums - you can read to your heart's content about how the community has dealt with one person partially responsible for inflating the market here (http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=3840&start=330).

[Greg2600]

Does anyone think threads about old games sometimes make people want to buy them? I sometimes wonder if threads on forums are what drive prices of certain games up? Want to sell a game? Make a thread about it and get some discussion going just before you post it in the sales thread. Who has a Saturn and a TurboGrafx-16 CD for sale? Now's your chance while the topic is hot!

I've been guilty to some extent of impulse buying in the past. I think video review shows like AVGN, Game Sack, Metal Jesus Rocks, Irate Gamer, Happy Nerd, whatever, have a lot of influence. Often you just don't think of a game/system until someone points it out.

[theclaw]

Funny to see SS and PCE mentioned together. Just one thing missing. SFC. These three together represent the best of everything. Some of the best gaming machines with respect to their era/generation (not to imply they are necessarily superior to their competitors, just that they are very adequately equipped to perform), vast libraries spanning most or all genres, and just massive amounts of amazing games, amazing works in general, including the little details like graphic design, soundtrack compositions, etc.

I chose SFC over FC/FDS just by a hair due to the help of higher fidelity audio and 16-bit graphics combined with the much larger library. The extra power makes it easier to deliver some seriously impressive shit (e.g. Tales of Phantasia, Tactics Ogre)

The majority of the Japanese game consoles have their shining areas but these three were the brightest stars. With these three systems, I've already gotten tons of memories of amazing stories, imagery, and music, and there's still HUNDREDS more titles to go through I don't even have... :)

Hence the big problem with this topic. We're on a US based message board talking about the US PCE. Without its Japanese library, PCE can't begin to hold any hope against SS.

[FoxNtd]

We're on a US based message board

Which talks about Japanese systems and games more than anything else.


Without its Japanese library, PCE can't begin to hold any hope against SS.

Hmm? USA had PCE? When did that happen? :popcorn:

[MarioMania]

Saturn Wins

Why don't we have Sega CD vs Turbo CD, that would be fair

[Bojay1997]

Which talks about Japanese systems and games more than anything else.



Hmm? USA had PCE? When did that happen? :popcorn:

Having had a TG-16 around the time of release, I can tell you that it was the first system I ever owned that had a lot of import support from game shops in the US. In Los Angeles, we had three that I used to visit regularly that all sold coverters and import games. So, while we didn't have a PCE here, we certainly had very easy access to PCE games.

[theclaw]

Which talks about Japanese systems and games more than anything else.



Hmm? USA had PCE? When did that happen? :popcorn:

Japanese creators yes. Not so much actual importing from Japan itself. A big difference.

Well maybe I shouldn't have called it PCE. But Turbo Grafx CD was such a laughable failure compared to the mighty PCE CD, that fact barely even deserves mention in this topic.


Los Angeles

Exactly. Wasn't TG-16 infamous for its putrid lack of distribution effort, difficult to find outside major metropolitan areas?

[Bojay1997]

Japanese creators yes. Not so much actual importing from Japan itself. A big difference.

Well maybe I shouldn't have called it PCE. But Turbo Grafx CD was such a laughable failure compared to the mighty PCE CD, that fact barely even deserves mention in this topic.



Exactly. Wasn't TG-16 infamous for its putrid lack of distribution effort, difficult to find outside major metropolitan areas?

Actually, it had pretty good distribution from what I recall, at least for a third party gaming system. It was in every Toys R Us location in the US and a couple of the pre-Gamestop chains carried it at malls. It wasn't at big box retail from what I recall, but then again, big box retail wasn't what it is now back then. Heck, in Southern California we didn't even have Best Buy or Target until the mid-90s in many areas. It also got tons of coverage in magazines at the time. They didn't have much in the way of advertising, but I know people I went to school with at least were aware of it.

[buzz_n64]

Having had a TG-16 around the time of release, I can tell you that it was the first system I ever owned that had a lot of import support from game shops in the US. In Los Angeles, we had three that I used to visit regularly that all sold coverters and import games. So, while we didn't have a PCE here, we certainly had very easy access to PCE games.

Same with Saturn import titles. I remember the game store sold Japanese Saturn games. When I compare the libraries of both systems, in my opinion, the Saturn wins hands down. Saturn has a ton of games that I love playing. Saturn has most of the Sonic games, Nights, Bug!, a lot more Street Fighter games, Metal Slug, Gex, and many other games that the Turbo couldn't even handle. I prefer my Saturn even over my Playstation.

[theclaw]

Well if you guys come across anyone who lived on Whidbey Island WA during the actively supported life of TG16 (approx 1989 to 1994) to have potentially seen any product related to the console officially distributed way out here, or was a store employee to know about it, hit me up with the details!

[IHatedSega]

It was a distant 3rd place console because they didnt have the distribution or marketing like Sega and Nintendo had. That simple. If they were to sell to places in the US then it would have been larger populated areas. I grew up in Austin TX, and I didnt know about it, but I also wasnt into games as much. The retro store near me has it and the CD drive.

[Gamevet]

I've lived in Dallas since 89. I saw the TG-16 at Toys R' Us, along with the CD attachment. They had it in a cubed display at the endcap, with Sherlock Holmes: Consulting detective. It wasn't that hard to find, but it was way too expensive for the games that were being sold. JJ & Jeff and Bonk were not what I would call system sellers.

I eventually got a TG-16, along with about 8 used games from Floppy Joes in Plano. I probably would have bought a Turbo-Duo, but the North American lineup did not justify the price of the unit.

[theclaw]

See, Dallas. Another big city. I clearly think we're reaching a pattern with users who remember the TG16.

[Gamevet]

See, Dallas. Another big city. I clearly think we're reaching a pattern with users who remember the TG16.

You didn't have a Toys R' Us?

[theclaw]

No. Distance wise the nearest one to my current location requires a ferry.

[A Black Falcon]

Hmm... Turbo CD only versus Saturn's no challenge at all, the Saturn wins. But that's unfair, because by leaving out HuCard games you're cutting out over half of the library for no reason; you count all Saturn games, so of course all TG16/CD games should count too.

And yeah, between TG16+CD versus Saturn, import titles included... that's really hard, I can't decide easily. I might give the slight edge to the TG16+CD, though; it is my third favorite 4th gen console (the TG16; I like it a lot, but the SNES and Genesis with Sega CD and 32X are a bit better) versus my second or third favorite 5th gen one (the Saturn; the N64 is my favorite, but PS1 vs. Saturn is close), so I don't know... do I like all three 4th gen systems more than all but one 5th gen one? Hard to decide, but... maybe yes. I got the Saturn and TG16 at the same time, several years ago, and have probably played the Saturn more since then, though. However, part of that is because there are a lot more Saturn games, and they're cheaper too -- the Saturn has a good library of easily available US releases, while the TG16 doesn't, almost everything is relatively pricey. Also it's much easier to find Saturn games locally than TG16, and I prefer to buy locally rather than getting everything on EBay. So I have more Saturn games, and play it more, but if more TG16/CD games were available locally, I'd buy them for sure, and I do think I like the system slightly more overall.


No. Distance wise the nearest one to my current location requires a ferry.
Yeah, Toys R Us is really the one place that actually pushed the TG16 nationwide. It's the one place I actually remember seeing one too, during its life...

[Koa Zo]

The Japanese Saturn has a bigger range of more well known classics, some came to America, but besides those it doesnt have much to offer.
What do you mean "it doesn't have much to offer"
I seriously can't think of anything Saturn doesn't offer.

As to the question of the thread: I like both consoles. Both presented me with tons of surprises in the libraries. But overall the Saturn has the broader range of to-notch- titles.


It was a distant 3rd place console because they didnt have the distribution or marketing like Sega and Nintendo had. That simple. If they were to sell to places in the US then it would have been larger populated areas. I grew up in Austin TX, and I didnt know about it, but I also wasnt into games as much. The retro store near me has it and the CD drive.

Where are you coming up with this?

TG-16 has substantial print advertising and television advertising. I don't really ever recall browsing videogame sections of stores and not seeing TG-16 games and products.

[Bojay1997]

What do you mean "it doesn't have much to offer"
I seriously can't think of anything Saturn doesn't offer.

As to the question of the thread: I like both consoles. Both presented me with tons of surprises in the libraries. But overall the Saturn has the broader range of to-notch- titles.



Where are you coming up with this?

TG-16 has substantial print advertising and television advertising. I don't really ever recall browsing videogame sections of stores and not seeing TG-16 games and products.

I think that's a gross overstatement. As I noted earlier, it was carried at Toys R Us and certain mall chains before Gamestop, but it certainly wasn't as widely available as the NES or Sega Genesis. The advertising was also limited to game magazines for the most part and they only did one short and concentrated burst of TV advertising and then it was regional and not national in scope.

[Koa Zo]

I think that's a gross overstatement. As I noted earlier, it was carried at Toys R Us and certain mall chains before Gamestop, but it certainly wasn't as widely available as the NES or Sega Genesis. The advertising was also limited to game magazines for the most part and they only did one short and concentrated burst of TV advertising and then it was regional and not national in scope.
Of course it wasn't as widely distributed and advertised as Nintendo and Sega, but anyone who was into games knew about it.
I remember the TV commercials for the Duo and the 3-pack of games, and Lord of Thunder commercials, that was pretty late in the TG-16's life and I was still seeing commercials on MTV or wherever.

I'd wager the TG-16/Duo has as much if not more TV advertising in the US than Saturn.

[A Black Falcon]

Where are you coming up with this?
It's very well known that NEC badly bungled TG16 marketing in the US, particuarly in the first few years when it mattered most. They focused mostly on a handful of major cities; elsewhere, it just depended if you had a Toys R Us near you. They did not market it well or enough. Maybe serious, hardcore gamers knew about it, sure, but the mass market either didn't, or thought that it was worse than Genesis (or, once it released, SNES) based on hearsay, probably didn't see them on the shelves anyway because both of the low sales and because of the poor marketing efforts, and dismissed it.


TG-16 has substantial print advertising and television advertising. I don't really ever recall browsing videogame sections of stores and not seeing TG-16 games and products.
Beyond what I mentioned above there was a decent-sized marketing push (in magazine ads, particularly) for the TurboDuo in '92-93, but it was too little, too late, and the Duo bombed. There's a reason why TTI was pretty much dead a year after the Duo released -- they didn't sell enough. Of course, it didn't help that some of their marketing was that controversial "Johnny Turbo" magazine ad campaign...


Of course it wasn't as widely distributed and advertised as Nintendo and Sega, but anyone who was into games knew about it.
I remember the TV commercials for the Duo and the 3-pack of games, and Lord of Thunder commercials, that was pretty late in the TG-16's life and I was still seeing commercials on MTV or wherever.

I'd wager the TG-16/Duo has as much if not more TV advertising in the US than Saturn.
The SNES and Genesis didn't sell what they did because of people who knew about games... and as for Duo ads, as I said, that was a last, desperate attempt to make the system successful, and they completely failed, unfortunately.

As for TG16 (all models combined, but most of them would be the original model) vs. Saturn sales, Turbo CD/Duo sales were quite low, of course. TG16 HuCard systems did sell better though. The problem is, we don't really know how much the TG16 sold... the one source that says anything says 2.5 million, but that number seems far too high, I think. The Saturn sold 2-3 million in the US, and there's absolutely no way that the TG16 sold more than that... just look at EBay for instance, there's always a lot more US Saturn stuff than there is Turbografx. Several times more in fact. That TG16 sales number is likely wrong, but who knows that the real one is. http://www.pcenginefx.com/forums/index.php?topic=3223.msg45723#msg45723 (Post claiming maybe under a million? The number is very plausible, but we can't be sure it's accurate; I'd take that over that absurd "2.5 million" number for sure, though.)

For Duo sales... http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=17589981&postcount=190 Victor Ireland of Working Designs here says that he thinks the Duo itself only sold 20,000 systems, and that the Turbo CD sold about that amount too, or less. http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=43483951&postcount=8 Here he says how they destroyed some leftover unsold TG16/Duo hardware, in order to get a tax writeoff for it. They apparently had a lot left over.

[theclaw]

There's one lead we can look into: Try to figure out when the Kmart location in Oak Harbor was founded.
Off-hand the only big box retailer I can name within my peculiar criteria who may have both carried TG16 products and was active during that era. Walmart didn't reach this general area until later AFAIK.

[Koa Zo]

I'm not disputing that the TG-16/Duo failed in the US.

[theclaw]

TG-16/Duo was regional. Notice what's in common with users who claim to have encountered it alive, their location.


I recall hearing something about this as well. However it works out, the Sega Ages games seem to support 240p (at least some of them), while many other games are 480i only. Ditto for games with 480p support (probably the more glamorous concern for many gamers during the PS2's lifespan).

My guess is multi-platform development practices. Xbox did NOT support 240p officially. Unlike even Gamecube.

[Tokimemofan]

As for TG16 (all models combined, but most of them would be the original model) vs. Saturn sales, Turbo CD/Duo sales were quite low, of course. TG16 HuCard systems did sell better though. The problem is, we don't really know how much the TG16 sold... the one source that says anything says 2.5 million, but that number seems far too high, I think. The Saturn sold 2-3 million in the US, and there's absolutely no way that the TG16 sold more than that... just look at EBay for instance, there's always a lot more US Saturn stuff than there is Turbografx. Several times more in fact. That TG16 sales number is likely wrong, but who knows that the real one is. http://www.pcenginefx.com/forums/index.php?topic=3223.msg45723#msg45723 (Post claiming maybe under a million? The number is very plausible, but we can't be sure it's accurate; I'd take that over that absurd "2.5 million" number for sure, though.)

I have also heard the 1 million number. Seems plausible but still a bit high


For Duo sales... http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=17589981&postcount=190 Victor Ireland of Working Designs here says that he thinks the Duo itself only sold 20,000 systems, and that the Turbo CD sold about that amount too, or less. http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=43483951&postcount=8 Here he says how they destroyed some leftover unsold TG16/Duo hardware, in order to get a tax writeoff for it. They apparently had a lot left over.

Sounds more plausable than the 100k-200k range that some report but may be a bit low, that is on par with the Atari Jaguar CD which seems to have better numbers, but the Turbo CD seems to be a bit more common. It is rather hard to draw a comparison between the two since so many of each have been lost to hardware failures. For the record in 10 years I have seen 1 Jag CD, 1 Turbo CD and 2 Duos in videogame stores.

[FrankSerpico]

Totally off topic but I always think of this nutjob when anyone mentions Whidbey Island. I did a fair amount of research on crazy survivalist/militia groups when I was still in school so this crap is ingrained in my brain. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Jay_Mathews

[BlastProcessing402]

I think that's a gross overstatement. As I noted earlier, it was carried at Toys R Us and certain mall chains before Gamestop, but it certainly wasn't as widely available as the NES or Sega Genesis. The advertising was also limited to game magazines for the most part and they only did one short and concentrated burst of TV advertising and then it was regional and not national in scope.

I remember TG16 stuff being in the old JC Penney's and Sears Christmas catalogs, so they weren't that hard to get, unless you really were in East Tumbleweed c/o Middle of Nowhere.

Walmart and Target weren't really around in our area then, nor Best Buy or Circuit City, so I don't know what they might've done, but TRU, Children's Palace (an old TRU competitor, if you don't remember), Electronics Boutique, Babbages those were the main places to buy games back then, and they all carried it.

K-Mart, I don't remember if they carried it or not (I would guess not), but even their NES selection was pretty lacking back in the day. Yes, they carried NES, but they had maybe a dozen to two dozen games compared to the 50 to a hundred you might find at the other places at any given time. They weren't exactly gaming central, they were where you tried to beg your mom to buy you a game while she was dragging you along shopping. Hey, that's how I got the original Zelda.

[mailman187666]

I remember playing a demo kiosk of some sort when I was younger at either a Sears or Lechmere back when it was still in stores. I'm leaning more toward it being in Lechmere. This was in Nashua, NH all those years ago. There was also Toys R Us, EB, Kaybee Toys and I think maybe one or two other stores that carried TG16 IIRC. I don't recall ever seeing a Duo or TG CD attachment for sale.

[wiggyx]

As for TG16 (all models combined, but most of them would be the original model) vs. Saturn sales, Turbo CD/Duo sales were quite low, of course. TG16 HuCard systems did sell better though. The problem is, we don't really know how much the TG16 sold... the one source that says anything says 2.5 million, but that number seems far too high, I think. The Saturn sold 2-3 million in the US, and there's absolutely no way that the TG16 sold more than that... just look at EBay for instance, there's always a lot more US Saturn stuff than there is Turbografx. Several times more in fact. That TG16 sales number is likely wrong, but who knows that the real one is.

Just because there's more Saturn stuff than TG16 on eBay doesn't mean that Saturn sales were higher than those of the TG16.

The TG16 came out at a time when video games were very much so thought of as disposable. I had many friends who's parents would throw games away when they weren't used anymore. We're talking late 80's/early 90's. No webernets, no eBay, and the only trade-in shops were locally owned. Lamestop didn't exist and places like Electronics Boutique and Babbages didn't do used games. There was really no reason for parents, or most anyone for that matter, to think that these things were worth holding on to.

That said, I do tend to agree with you regarding sales numbers. It's hard to imagine the TG16 sharing the same sales as the Saturn. But we can't know for certain either way...

[theclaw]

I remember playing a demo kiosk of some sort when I was younger at either a Sears or Lechmere back when it was still in stores. I'm leaning more toward it being in Lechmere. This was in Nashua, NH all those years ago. There was also Toys R Us, EB, Kaybee Toys and I think maybe one or two other stores that carried TG16 IIRC. I don't recall ever seeing a Duo or TG CD attachment for sale.

Yeah that's still 3-4 times the population of Oak Harbor, WA. Getting likely at this point TG16 was in fact not released there.

[Bojay1997]

Yeah that's still 3-4 times the population of Oak Harbor, WA. Getting likely at this point TG16 was in fact not released there.

Oak Harbor, WA only had a population of around 17,000 people in 1990. I doubt you had much in the way of video game retail at all back then. The system and games were readily available mail order and certainly would have been available in larger population areas of Washington state. I'm sure you missed out on a lot of products living in such a small town.

[7th lutz]

I remember TG16 stuff being in the old JC Penney's and Sears Christmas catalogs, so they weren't that hard to get, unless you really were in East Tumbleweed c/o Middle of Nowhere.

Walmart and Target weren't really around in our area then, nor Best Buy or Circuit City, so I don't know what they might've done, but TRU, Children's Palace (an old TRU competitor, if you don't remember), Electronics Boutique, Babbages those were the main places to buy games back then, and they all carried it.

K-Mart, I don't remember if they carried it or not (I would guess not), but even their NES selection was pretty lacking back in the day. Yes, they carried NES, but they had maybe a dozen to two dozen games compared to the 50 to a hundred you might find at the other places at any given time. They weren't exactly gaming central, they were where you tried to beg your mom to buy you a game while she was dragging you along shopping. Hey, that's how I got the original Zelda.

Walmart and Target existed in my era in the early 1990's and I believe Walmart first came in 1989 or 1990 in my area. What I can tell is there was no tg-16 games in those 2 stores or for K-mart either at the time. Walmart and Target only carried Nintendo and Sega at the time.

[theclaw]

Oak Harbor, WA only had a population of around 17,000 people in 1990. I doubt you had much in the way of video game retail at all back then. The system and games were readily available mail order and certainly would have been available in larger population areas of Washington state. I'm sure you missed out on a lot of products living in such a small town.

True. Honestly I don't think Infinite Space for DS (yeah I know it's a modern game example) reached out that far either. Who knows what else I'm not even aware the area missed out on.
Then again I would've been too young at the time to fully comprehend reading and writing. Let alone concepts like mail order.