Flashing Vs Actual Cart

[Zthun]

After reading about batteries going out and having similar problems myself with certain titles, I'm considering putting games on flash carts.

I was wondering for the people that use flash carts to preserve and play their game library, how well do these things behave and perform compared to the original carts. Have you noticed any big performance issues on games that are supported? This can be for any flash cart for any system before the GBA - so NES, SNES, Genesis/Megadrive, N64, etc. I've read some reviews from various sources, but some of them are inconsistent with the specs on the flash cart websites. For example, the retro-duo for the SNES contains an incompatibility list, but I've read reviews telling that all these games are supported and there's only a few that they can't get working.

Any input is appreciated.

[Jack_Burton_BYOAC]

The difference between ROM chips and flash carts can get pretty deep, but for all practical purposes, it is usually 100% identical unless the original cart used some bit of extra hardware like the Super FX chip.

If you are only worried about your saves there are alternatives to flash carts, such as the Retrode.

[bb_hood]

I got a Nes Power Pak for Christmas and I have been playing around with it for the last week alot and it is really worth getting.

First of all, about performance issuse, the games run really well. The power pak plays the original rom on the original hardware so the games will play just like having the original cart playing in the nes. I played ninja gaiden 3 through to the end last night and as far as I can tell playing it on the power pak is identical to playing the original cart.

Second, in terms of games that are supported, it will depend on if the game's mapper is compatable. Most are. I went through a file of about 1700 roms and pulled out anything worth playing for nes, then tested about 350 roms and only came out with 8 games that I couldnt get to work or had graphics issues. These are the only good nes games with issues or dont work: Startropics, Startopics2, Batman Return of Joke, Karnov (graphics glitched), Cybernoid (graphics glitched), Castlevania 3 (US version only, Japanese works fine), Crystalis (graphics a little messed, playable though).
So besides the games I listed above, the cart will pretty much play anything worth playing just fine. Way better than emulators. Will also play famicom and famicom disk games that are on one disk, which is really cool.

[Greg2600]

It's simply too complicated to comment on all flash carts in one swoop. Give me a system and I can run down the options. Remember flash carts cost $$$$$.

[Rickstilwell1]

I got a Nes Power Pak for Christmas and I have been playing around with it for the last week alot and it is really worth getting.

First of all, about performance issuse, the games run really well. The power pak plays the original rom on the original hardware so the games will play just like having the original cart playing in the nes. I played ninja gaiden 3 through to the end last night and as far as I can tell playing it on the power pak is identical to playing the original cart.

Second, in terms of games that are supported, it will depend on if the game's mapper is compatable. Most are. I went through a file of about 1700 roms and pulled out anything worth playing for nes, then tested about 350 roms and only came out with 8 games that I couldnt get to work or had graphics issues. These are the only good nes games with issues or dont work: Startropics, Startopics2, Batman Return of Joke, Karnov (graphics glitched), Cybernoid (graphics glitched), Castlevania 3 (US version only, Japanese works fine), Crystalis (graphics a little messed, playable though).
So besides the games I listed above, the cart will pretty much play anything worth playing just fine. Way better than emulators. Will also play famicom and famicom disk games that are on one disk, which is really cool.


You forgot Kirby's Adventure. Graphics glitched. I also heard of patchable problems with Wario's Woods. I also encountered a minor graphical glitch with Felix the Cat, but it wasn't as bad as the Kirby problem.

All the other flash carts I've had worked great except with games on the incompatible list.

I even hacked Sonic 3 & Knuckles with advice from a member at Sonic Retro to allow it to save on the Everdrive MD.

[bb_hood]

You forgot Kirby's Adventure. Graphics glitched..


Yeah I did, Kirby actually isnt that bad at all, it seems like only one color is off a bit. Totally playable though. I diddnt notice felix, I will check that out, and I think I did notice warios wood not looking right but I really dont care much for warios woods..

[Zthun]

It's simply too complicated to comment on all flash carts in one swoop. Give me a system and I can run down the options. Remember flash carts cost $$$$$.

Right now, I'm looking for SNES and NES, but I'm going to start with NES. I know that it costs a lot, but the fact that I can put any games I want on it will make a lot of space on my shelves and will allow me to focus on just the games that the cart doesn't support. I won't have to worry about batteries going out either cause if something happens to the cart, I will still have the SD card for it.

Right now, the one I'm looking at is the PowerPak that bb_hood was talking about. I don't see a lot of other possibilities doing a quick google search, but I haven't done extensive research.

Also, I do know that emulation is a permanent solution and I can always get emulators for the PC or even hack my wii to put all the games I want on it. The problem is that these have to be emulated and I would really like to get the actual playing of the cart as close to the original hardware as possible. I don't care about support of clone systems either. Mostly I would play these on an NES frontloader (not toplloader).

[dgdgagdae]

Right now, the one I'm looking at is the PowerPak that bb_hood was talking about. I don't see a lot of other possibilities doing a quick google search, but I haven't done extensive research.

Krikzz, the creator of the different Everdrive cartridges, is currently working on a Famicom Everdrive. I believe he's going to make one for the NES after that. He hasn't put any timelines to anything, though.

I have a PowerPak, and I like it a lot. As mentioned, there are some games that don't work well with it or that don't work at all. But if you're a collector, you probably already have the non-working games that you like already.

[bb_hood]

Yeah, I wouldnt worry too much about the games that arent supported. Like I said before, in terms of anything thats really worth playing, the only games that dont play are the 8-10 so I mentioned above. The powerpak mappers are updateable, so more games may be supported in the future. It plays famicom roms and famicom disk system roms just fine.

The 4gb flash card will easily hold over 15,000 roms, which you can sort any way you like on the cart. Its easy to switch between the games, which is where the cart really shines because it means no more getting up to switch games or switching games in the system. The cart appears to be pretty high quality, and since it will hold every game you wont be taking it out/handling the cart alot, so I really dont see it breaking. Its just gonna stay in the system.
I actually ordered the snes powerpak over a week ago and its still 'in production'.

[Tron 2.0]

I have a everdrive md and a super everdrive.I bought them both since there convenient to have and i don't have to worry about changing a game etc.For loading times for both are not to bad either there not really fast but quick enough.Looking at compatibility,on the everdrive md it will not play phelios but any thing else so dunno.Then there's the super everdrive of course it can't play games such as (mega man x) and (starfox) because those run on custom mappers,but i can all ways buy those.While having flashcarts has not stop me from buying games there great any ways.

By the way i can't wait for the famicom everdrive by krikzz.Still I wonder how well supported it will be for running every game !? I say this because nes/famicom have there share of custom mappers to.

[Zthun]

Yeah, I wouldnt worry too much about the games that arent supported. Like I said before, in terms of anything thats really worth playing, the only games that dont play are the 8-10 so I mentioned above. The powerpak mappers are updateable, so more games may be supported in the future. It plays famicom roms and famicom disk system roms just fine.

That's really good to know, and that's pretty much seals the deal for me for NES if I can do manual firmware updates for more mappers.



The 4gb flash card will easily hold over 15,000 roms, which you can sort any way you like on the cart. Its easy to switch between the games, which is where the cart really shines because it means no more getting up to switch games or switching games in the system. The cart appears to be pretty high quality, and since it will hold every game you wont be taking it out/handling the cart alot, so I really dont see it breaking. Its just gonna stay in the system.
I actually ordered the snes powerpak over a week ago and its still 'in production'.

I'm really leaning towards krikzz's super everdrive (deluxe edition) instead of the snes powerpak because I don't have to hold down the reset button to dump the saves to the SD card. It's also cheaper than the powerpak.

[Greg2600]

NES powerpak is the best option at the moment. Krikzz is not done with his.

Super everdrive with dsp-1 chip is good, but so is the super powerpak.

[Rickstilwell1]

The SD2SNES will become the superior SNES flashcart because it will be not emulating the games, but just emulating the special chips that those SNES games use. It should make the whole SNES library playable via flashing.

[Jack_Burton_BYOAC]

The SD2SNES will become the superior SNES flashcart because it will be not emulating the games, but just emulating the special chips that those SNES games use. It should make the whole SNES library playable via flashing.

None of the current flash chips are emulating the games. When you play games on a flash cart they are written to on-board RAM, which behaves exactly like the original ROM chip. It's no different than playing the same game off of a CD-ROM vs a CD-RW.

The flash carts that feature extra hardware like the DSP-1 just have one of those harvested from a real cart soldered in, or they have a clone chip. Neither of those are emulation.

I think some cart makers could use a Field Programmable Gate Array to take the place of advanced chips like the Super FX or SA-1. This isn't really emulation. It's more like using a different cpu to process the same commands. But from the discussions I've read around the net, it would be so expensive it would be cheaper to just buy the corresponding games.

[Wraith Storm]

I have been very happy with my Everdrive.

I have a ton of genesis stuff. Half of the games are complete and half are just loose carts. I decided to just keep my favorite games and then use the Everdrive to play the rest. It allowed me to clear out a lot of my loose Genesis carts and free up shelf space! The only issue that I I have had with the Everdrive is managing game saves.

If I only use one save file then its okay, but if I play more than one game that saves, it sometimes overwrites the previous file or other weird things. I have tried different options and setting but it has never worked correctly for me. But like I said, if I only have one game save at a time it works fine.

[Zthun]

I have been very happy with my Everdrive.

I have a ton of genesis stuff. Half of the games are complete and half are just loose carts. I decided to just keep my favorite games and then use the Everdrive to play the rest. It allowed me to clear out a lot of my loose Genesis carts and free up shelf space! The only issue that I I have had with the Everdrive is managing game saves.

If I only use one save file then its okay, but if I play more than one game that saves, it sometimes overwrites the previous file or other weird things. I have tried different options and setting but it has never worked correctly for me. But like I said, if I only have one game save at a time it works fine.

I am aware of the problems with saving on the super powerpak, that if you want to change games, you have to manually dump the save by holding the reset button. If you forget to do this, your saves will be lost (as they will be overwritten by the new game saves). However, I was reading reviews that this wasn't necessary on the everdrive and that it dumps it for you automatically. That and the price was getting me to lean more towards the everdrive. Is this not the case? I will still go with the everdrive for the price alone, but I'm just wondering.

[bb_hood]

I am aware of the problems with saving on the super powerpak,

i really wouldnt call it a problem, its just how it works. I dont have a snes power pak yet, but it looks like it handles save files just like the nes power pak. Basically you make the save file on the flash card, then to update your that save file on the CF card you have to hold reset to go back to the main screen where it will prompt you to update your save file on the CF card. Its actually really easy, and takes 3-5 secs to update your save. The only problem is if you were to forget and turn the power off instead of holding reset, you would lose your progress but the save files dont get erased.

[Tron 2.0]

I'm really leaning towards krikzz's super everdrive (deluxe edition) instead of the snes powerpak because I don't have to hold down the reset button to dump the saves to the SD card. It's also cheaper than the powerpak.
That's the only down side to the snes powerpak for how you save at least.Ive watched videos for it and notice it does load games faster.The other being it supports a game genie feature.Last year,i all most bought a snes powerpak but i was put off by the fact for how it's save feature worked.In the end i bought a used super everdrive instead and yes it has the ds-p1 chip in it.So far i have been satisfy how the SED works and all.Still if you're worry about having a snes flashcart that plays it all for games that use a cutsom mapper,then the SD2SNES is the way to go.

[Rickstilwell1]

None of the current flash chips are emulating the games. When you play games on a flash cart they are written to on-board RAM, which behaves exactly like the original ROM chip. It's no different than playing the same game off of a CD-ROM vs a CD-RW.

The flash carts that feature extra hardware like the DSP-1 just have one of those harvested from a real cart soldered in, or they have a clone chip. Neither of those are emulation.

I think some cart makers could use a Field Programmable Gate Array to take the place of advanced chips like the Super FX or SA-1. This isn't really emulation. It's more like using a different cpu to process the same commands. But from the discussions I've read around the net, it would be so expensive it would be cheaper to just buy the corresponding games.

That's not what I meant. I meant the SD2SNES will be emulating those chips without having to have the chips soldered in. The games will still be flashed the normal way. Emulating a chip and emulating a rom are completely different things.

[Greg2600]

That's the only down side to the snes powerpak for how you save at least.Ive watched videos for it and notice it does load games faster.The other being it supports a game genie feature.Last year,i all most bought a snes powerpak but i was put off by the fact for how it's save feature worked.In the end i bought a used super everdrive instead and yes it has the ds-p1 chip in it.So far i have been satisfy how the SED works and all.Still if you're worry about having a snes flashcart that plays it all for games that use a cutsom mapper,then the SD2SNES is the way to go.

Correct, Super PowerPak games load IMMEDIATELY because it does not need to flash them to rom like the Super Everdrive. SD2SNES is the supreme being, but it's MUCH more expensive than the other two. I would also say think about the Super UFO thing, which is the cheapest of all and works fairly well. Can play DSP-1 games by plugging in MarioKart. The other thing is that the Super PP is far more compatible with certain prototypes and most of the BS (Satellaview) games. Super ED has issues when the headers of the roms aren't perfect.

[dgdgagdae]

Correct, Super PowerPak games load IMMEDIATELY because it does not need to flash them to rom like the Super Everdrive.

That's not correct. They are flashed to memory just like with the NES PowerPak. It's very fast, reportedly much faster than the Super EverDrive, because it uses CompactFlash and not SD cards.

[Greg2600]

That's not correct. They are flashed to memory just like with the NES PowerPak. It's very fast, reportedly much faster than the Super EverDrive, because it uses CompactFlash and not SD cards.

PowerPak is flashed to SDRAM and DMA, EverDrive (original and Super) are flashed to ROM. ROM space has to be deleted and written to when changing games. SPP also supports Star Ocean, which I think is too big for SED. Correct CF is faster than SD, but also doesn't have to erase and write to ROM.

Look, the Super Everdrive is the best solution if you just want to a bare bones cart, because it's much cheaper. $80. but once you get to the deluxe versions SAG sells, with DSP-1 chip and all, it's much more, closer to the Super PP.

A fellow has come up with a new firmware for the SNES PowerPak that enhances the menu system.

http://forums.nesdev.com/viewtopic.php?p=104906#p104906


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LB7CZOA-0Hk

[StoneAgeGamer]

None of the current flash chips are emulating the games. When you play games on a flash cart they are written to on-board RAM, which behaves exactly like the original ROM chip. It's no different than playing the same game off of a CD-ROM vs a CD-RW.

The flash carts that feature extra hardware like the DSP-1 just have one of those harvested from a real cart soldered in, or they have a clone chip. Neither of those are emulation.

I think some cart makers could use a Field Programmable Gate Array to take the place of advanced chips like the Super FX or SA-1. This isn't really emulation. It's more like using a different cpu to process the same commands. But from the discussions I've read around the net, it would be so expensive it would be cheaper to just buy the corresponding games.

Actually the SD2SNES does not use donor chips like the SuperED and Super PowerPak (which require DSP-1 donor chips for DSP-1 support). Those 2 also don't support an other enhancement chips. The SD2SNES emulates special chips in its FPGA (maybe emulates isn't the right word like you stated, but its easiest way to explain). Some of the special chips and other special stuff it already supports:
BS-X memory map / Satellaview base unit registers (clock)
DSP1 / 1b
DSP2
DSP3
DSP4
ST-010
Cx4
MSU1
S-RTC

Work in progress
GSU-1/2 (SuperFX)

Thats being said the SD2SNES is expensive and won't be on everyone's radar due to its price. Board Only runs $195 and our Deluxe base is $260. For many people the SuperED or Super PowerPak do the job.

[Jack_Burton_BYOAC]

Little note to this thread:

Aside from being a good way to preserve your save files, flash carts also do one other thing that's truly amazing.

They play hacks.

ROM hacking has come a looooong way since Super Nude Bros. and the Justin Baily patch for SM. The stuff that's out there is really mind boggling. There are many hacks that completely replace every level, almost all graphics, add new characters, new music, all kinds of things. And they're good games too.

There's a certain atmosphere about most of the good hacks. It's a subversion of the level design you come to expect. It's a very underground feeling. It's a good feeling too. At first, this can cause a lot of people to cry that many hacks are too difficult or unfair, but once you play through a couple of them you start to realize that often the creators have included alternative methods of doing things that make the games a cakewalk.

It's just a great community right now, and it looks like it will be getting even better. If things like Byuu's 21fx device ever come into existence it will essentially be the second coming of the SNES CD. ROM hackers are also starting to utilize the special chips in games that never even used them.

Can you imagine playing a new version of A Link to the Past with Super FX or SA-1 special effects and CD quality audio? Five or six years from now, who knows what could be happening?

[Ace]

The only two flash cartridges I own are an old GameBoy Advance flash cartridge whose name I can't remember and a PowerPak. The GameBoy Advance cart worked quite well, but has a tendency to erase game saves, place garbage saves with the MegaMan Zero games and causes Contra Advance: The Alien Wars EX to lock up soon after starting Stage 2.

With the PowerPak, this thing is almost perfect, but I've run into a couple of problems with certain games and imperfections in the FPGA simulation of some Famicom expansion audio chips:

-Rad Racer II plays with severely corrupted backgrounds just like if you were to play the original cartridge on a Famiclone with a missing CIRAM /CE signal
-Salamander doesn't work at all due to a missing VRC3 mapper file
-Expansion audio is CONSIDERABLY quieter than the actual expansion audio hardware (especially true of the VRC6; the real one is MUCH louder than the PowerPak's FPGA simulation)
-The audio out of the FPGA-simulated Sunsoft 5B has a few imperfections, namely lower sound pitch and notes that drag on too long
-The audio from the FPGA-simulated 2C33 for Disk System games is WAY off from the real chip
-The NSF player has a lot of imperfections, particularly with Konami NSFs and NSFs from the first two MegaMan games

In general, the PowerPak is quite good, but until there's no VRC3 mapper file made (let me just say Salamander is better than Life Force) and the audio imperfections with the Sunsoft 5B and the 2C33 are fixed, I can't use the PowerPak to play all the NES and Famicom games I own on a single cartridge due to compatibility problems and audio imperfections, the latter of which I cannot stand.

I will eventually get more flash cartridges, and I'll be sure to let you know what I think of them. I plan to get the Mega EverDrive and the Turbo EverDrive in the near future.

[Greg2600]

They play hacks.

Nothing gets as much play for me as the many BETTER Pac-Man hacks on the 2600 Harmony cartridge.

[Rickstilwell1]

The only two flash cartridges I own are an old GameBoy Advance flash cartridge whose name I can't remember and a PowerPak. The GameBoy Advance cart worked quite well, but has a tendency to erase game saves, place garbage saves with the MegaMan Zero games and causes Contra Advance: The Alien Wars EX to lock up soon after starting Stage 2.

With the PowerPak, this thing is almost perfect, but I've run into a couple of problems with certain games and imperfections in the FPGA simulation of some Famicom expansion audio chips:

-Rad Racer II plays with severely corrupted backgrounds just like if you were to play the original cartridge on a Famiclone with a missing CIRAM /CE signal
-Salamander doesn't work at all due to a missing VRC3 mapper file
-Expansion audio is CONSIDERABLY quieter than the actual expansion audio hardware (especially true of the VRC6; the real one is MUCH louder than the PowerPak's FPGA simulation)
-The audio out of the FPGA-simulated Sunsoft 5B has a few imperfections, namely lower sound pitch and notes that drag on too long
-The audio from the FPGA-simulated 2C33 for Disk System games is WAY off from the real chip
-The NSF player has a lot of imperfections, particularly with Konami NSFs and NSFs from the first two MegaMan games

In general, the PowerPak is quite good, but until there's no VRC3 mapper file made (let me just say Salamander is better than Life Force) and the audio imperfections with the Sunsoft 5B and the 2C33 are fixed, I can't use the PowerPak to play all the NES and Famicom games I own on a single cartridge due to compatibility problems and audio imperfections, the latter of which I cannot stand.

I will eventually get more flash cartridges, and I'll be sure to let you know what I think of them. I plan to get the Mega EverDrive and the Turbo EverDrive in the near future.

Mega Everdrive is also great because it can play Sega Master System roms on your Genesis 1 or 2 with no Power Base Converter, making the SMS an unneccesary system to leave hooked up until you want to play the couple games that don't run on the PBC or SG-1000 games. It also has 32X rom support for when you have your 32X inserted. A good way to not spend $20-40 on Knuckles Chaotix

[dgdgagdae]

Mega Everdrive is also great because it can play Sega Master System roms on your Genesis 1 or 2 with no Power Base Converter, making the SMS an unneccesary system to leave hooked up until you want to play the couple games that don't run on the PBC or SG-1000 games. It also has 32X rom support for when you have your 32X inserted. A good way to not spend $20-40 on Knuckles Chaotix

The EverDrive MD also can run SMS and 32X games (in an actual 32X).

[bb_hood]

Little note to this thread:

Aside from being a good way to preserve your save files, flash carts also do one other thing that's truly amazing.

They play hacks.

ROM hacking has come a looooong way since Super Nude Bros. and the Justin Baily patch for SM. The stuff that's out there is really mind boggling. There are many hacks that completely replace every level, almost all graphics, add new characters, new music, all kinds of things. And they're good games too.

There's a certain atmosphere about most of the good hacks. It's a subversion of the level design you come to expect. It's a very underground feeling. It's a good feeling too. At first, this can cause a lot of people to cry that many hacks are too difficult or unfair, but once you play through a couple of them you start to realize that often the creators have included alternative methods of doing things that make the games a cakewalk.

It's just a great community right now, and it looks like it will be getting even better. If things like Byuu's 21fx device ever come into existence it will essentially be the second coming of the SNES CD. ROM hackers are also starting to utilize the special chips in games that never even used them.

Can you imagine playing a new version of A Link to the Past with Super FX or SA-1 special effects and CD quality audio? Five or six years from now, who knows what could be happening?

Hell YES. Yeah, there are alot of hacks out there and alot of them are really fun to play. I was very surprised at not only the sheer number of them, but how many were actually different games rather than just the same game with a naked mario. I found a really good contra hack, i think its called Super Contra II, its plays like the first contra but much more difficult, and you get to keep your weapons after you die.