Used consoles and digital downloads

[FoxNtd]

I think we're far enough into the current generation -- wait, the next one has already started, we already have Wii U -- to ask this question. How do you guys approach buying/selling used consoles, given that things like Wii VC/WiiWare downloads and various DLC across PS3/360/Wii are quite commonplace? When someone sells a used console with a bunch of games, naturally there's more value there than a console by itself. For example do we typically see a used Wii being sold with a bunch of VC titles on it, for a higher price to reflect it comes with games, much like the traditional situation where all the games were physical hard-copies?

Personally I own a 360 I'd like to sell with a small stack of disc games and.. about 800 DLC for rock band on it. In an extreme case like that, the content on the console has 'value' outweighing the hardware and disc games by far.

I rarely see used consoles for sale coming with DLC or digital-only games being part of the deal, at least in the few times I looked. This is a topic I've always wanted to figure out. I don't delve into modern gaming and don't buy any of the new stuff (and obviously also wish to be free of the xbox) so, what people like to buy or don't, I don't know.. Also I'm curious if people are buying/selling consoles with lots of downloads on them on eBay much.

[kedawa]

It would be stupid to pay more for WiiWare/VC stuff considering how easy it is to just softmod the system and load it up with whatever you want.
As far as the software license is concerned, you have no rights to content bought by the previous owner, anyway.

For XBOX360, the situation is even worse. If the seller transfers their licenses to a new console, then you lose access to all that downloaded content the moment you connect the old console to XBL.

[FoxNtd]

It would be stupid to pay more for WiiWare/VC stuff considering how easy it is to just softmod the system and load it up with whatever you want.
As far as the software license is concerned, you have no rights to content bought by the previous owner, anyway.

Wii VC seems to be a pretty good business model since so many people are apparently happy with giving money for emu without second thoughts instead of just getting and firing up an emu themselves for free.



For XBOX360, the situation is even worse. If the seller transfers their licenses to a new console, then you lose access to all that downloaded content the moment you connect the old console to XBL.

Why would this matter if the point is to sell the system completely? The console itself with hard drive and everything, all of it. There would not be a point to doing any transfers. Transferring would be useful if the original 360 breaks down though.

By the way I could apply the idea to physical games too: "It would be stupid to pay more for the games when you can just copy all the games for free anyway" yet we still pay for games.

[xelement5x]

Why would this matter if the point is to sell the system completely? The console itself with hard drive and everything, all of it. There would not be a point to doing any transfers. Transferring would be useful if the original 360 breaks down though.



I don't think you understand. DLC purchases are tied to your 360 Live account, not the console. If you gave the person your credentials and sold the account along with the system it would make sense. But the downloads have no worth at all if you're keeping your account.

[Rickstilwell1]

I don't think you understand. DLC purchases are tied to your 360 Live account, not the console. If you gave the person your credentials and sold the account along with the system it would make sense. But the downloads have no worth at all if you're keeping your account.

This is exactly what I was going to say. If you removed your credit card info, this would be the safest way to sell your account to them.

On PS3 it's a bit different as the games can be copied to one other system so the games there are actually coming from the console and not your PSN account. People would still be able to play most games for it offline. I am not sure DLC add-ons work in the same way as digital full games though.

[kupomogli]

If you're going to sell the 360 and no longer want to come back to it, then try to strike up a deal with someone who wants to buy the console plus DLC. Just remove all your information and if you've already registered to XBOX, call them up and tell them you want to transfer registration. After making the sale, have them change the password while you're there and show them the option to change the XBL account name if they wanted to.

[kedawa]

By the way I could apply the idea to physical games too: "It would be stupid to pay more for the games when you can just copy all the games for free anyway" yet we still pay for games.

There is no first sale doctrine applied to DD or DLC.
Selling it is no different than selling bootlegs with regards to the law.

[FoxNtd]

As if keeping an XBL account without an Xbox has any meaning. Of course that's part of the deal. I have never inputted a CC or debit card onto the account; absolutely everything was done through pre-paid cards' codes. The email address associated with it is dead to me (I have access to it, I just never use it.) I could change it to something else and turn that over so the buyer can use the account.

Finding a buyer is the hard part. Did you know if you post an item like this on Craigslist people flag the shit out of it until the system removes it automatically. Grr.

[kedawa]

That's probably because you're doing something illegal.
They do the same if you sell JTAG systems loaded up with games, or consoles with ixtreme firmware.

[FoxNtd]

I'd like a citation that explains how this is "illegal".

You're telling me that selling 1's and 0's on a shiny round piece of plastic is OK but if it's on a hard disk drive it's no good. I don't care how it's arranged or what medium it's written on it's data just the same.

And citing the ToS of whomever is bollocks because some manufacturer telling you "no" has no legal weight. That's like Ford telling you "no you can't go put 3rd party tires on our cars" - they can say this all day long and I'll put whatever tires on the damn thing I want. Or not being able to use a phone with a different service because the original service you used to use said "you can only use this phone with us". Boo fucking hoo. :|

[The 1 2 P]

Did you know if you post an item like this on Craigslist people flag the shit out of it until the system removes it automatically. Grr.

I see systems like this on craigs list all the time. Like others have said, as long as you are also getting rid of your account(basically your XBL gamertag) then this shouldn't be a problem. Just make sure to take all of your personal data(credit card, address, etc) off the system before you actually sell it.

[Rickstilwell1]

If craigslist is hard, why not just sell it on here or Atariage where it won't get deleted? There's a guy on Atariage who sells modded Xbox upgrade services there just fine AND loads full romsets onto them for you so you don't have to.

[FoxNtd]

I see systems like this on craigs list all the time. Like others have said, as long as you are also getting rid of your account(basically your XBL gamertag) then this shouldn't be a problem. Just make sure to take all of your personal data(credit card, address, etc) off the system before you actually sell it.

Oh thank you for reminding me of a question I had which is very important. If I simply wipe my gamertag/profile from this xbox (and, by the way, ALL the DLC is linked to this specific unit) all the DLC will still be usable by any other gamertag someone uses on the unit? Maybe I should just do that, if it is functional this way.

[The 1 2 P]

Oh thank you for reminding me of a question I had which is very important. If I simply wipe my gamertag/profile from this xbox (and, by the way, ALL the DLC is linked to this specific unit) all the DLC will still be usable by any other gamertag someone uses on the unit? Maybe I should just do that, if it is functional this way.

I think that once you delete your account all those games go with it. Even if you managed to keep all those games on the system they would revert back to demos that needed to be unlocked before they could be fully played. Atleast thats my understanding but perhaps someone else with more experience can chime in.

[kedawa]

I'd like a citation that explains how this is "illegal".

You're telling me that selling 1's and 0's on a shiny round piece of plastic is OK but if it's on a hard disk drive it's no good. I don't care how it's arranged or what medium it's written on it's data just the same.

So it's totally fine for me to rip retail games and burn copies on DVD-R and sell them, then?
It's the same data, after all.

Like it or not, you're legally bound by the terms of service, and that's exactly what you're reselling; services, not goods.
It's no different than selling a gym membership or even a driver's license.
Personally, I don't mind violating the terms of an EULA, and don't care if others do the same, but you can't expect CL or eBay to allow it to take place on their services.

[PapaStu]

If you don't give a shit about your XBL profile, then you could sell it as a whole. However unless you're a hacker or running pirated stuff I've yet to meet anyone who doesn't give a shit about the XBL account because of gamerscore and the like. Pretty sure it's against the EULA to sell the profile as well.

[FoxNtd]

So it's totally fine for me to rip retail games and burn copies on DVD-R and sell them, then?
It's the same data, after all.


The difference between my scenario and your example is that your example involves voluntary infringement of copyright for profit whereas my scenario doesn't even involve anything being copied in the first place.

Furthermore I can copy every CD and DVD I own and sell all the originals and nobody will touch me for doing it. (I wouldn't actually perform this act, just providing an example.)

This reminds me of the silliness of eBay for flagging and removing an auction (under the premise of "copyright infringement") I had for a cartridge that was cut to pass physical lockout (JP N64 cart in case you're wondering. Furthermore just today my friend shows me a cut JP MD cart and surprise surprise it's an active listing.) That's funny because I thought you had to COPY SOMETHING FIRST before anything could be infringed. >_>

Lastly, I'd like to add that, though very uncommon and unpopular, some people do sell homemade copies of things as a "service". (Real example, there are sellers with items like OpenOffice burned to a CD. Open source license does not conflict with the code being sold so long as the source and license itself are present. You basically buy it for convenience to avoid downloading and burning CDs yourself I guess.) Like I said not common but it does happen.

As for ToS/EULA: EULA has been shown not to hold ground as "legal". If you DESPERATELY need a citation I can try to spend the time to find one (I've seen it in the news, it's been a while, finding it would be a big pain.) A company can stamp their feet on the ground and cry like children all they want, their desires for how they want their sheeple consumers to behave does not magically render itself as law.

I may in fact try to list this Xbox on the forum as suggested. Sounds reasonable. Atariage, I am not a member there so I cannot reasonably expect other members to feel comfortable with me being a brand new member without reputation.

I will not experiment with deleting the profile or anything. It's just a function for normal operating procedure of the device and I'll leave it there.

EDIT: Regarding ebay/craigslist regulating itself, they choose how they want to run. The only reason they need to remove a listing is simply because they felt like it. They have this choice and I will not object without regard for any other factor. (I might think a particular removal is stupid but they can do it just the same.)

[Az]

I think that once you delete your account all those games go with it.

As mentioned above, if you delete your gamertag from the system you can still use the stuff you bought on the system originally.

However, if the original buyer gets another console and does the license transfer tool, and you hook up their old console to Live, the games will be rendered useless.

[Tanooki]

Well not going to read all the responses to respond on this other than the first post. :)

I for one don't sell my systems unless I'm totally and entirely finished completely with them and so far nothing of that sort had any downloadable content other than the PS Vita but even there it was just the freebies they threw out. When I do let go of a system, if there's anything at all on it, it gets a full wipe if not double wipe out formatting back to stock settings. I have no interest in allowing any personal info, login and passwords, or $ info getting out into the wild with all the slime out there these days. And clearly if you do remove an account from the system yet not format it, the data there won't exist anymore either if you had full games on the digital end, do you really want to sell your information and login/pass to someone else? The games won't work without that as an identifier. With Nintendo and their ignorant way of tying games to the system and not the account, in that case if I could remove all my personal info 100% with no chance of recovery without a format and allow the next person to have the games there I'd do it, but with an account based system like a PS3 or a Vita it gets a total format as I'm not selling my account information which the games won't work without having.

For me I wipe it clean, sell the system and any games/accessories I have and that's that, no digital transfers at all as there's too much identity theft out there.

[kedawa]

The difference between my scenario and your example is that your example involves voluntary infringement of copyright for profit whereas my scenario doesn't even involve anything being copied in the first place.

There is a scenario where you would in fact be violating copyright.
You can authorize one console per year to run XBL content without having to be signed in with your account, with the limitation that XBL will de-authorize them once they are authorized for another console. So, basically, you could load up one console per year with all of your digital downloads and sell it, and they will function just fine so long as the buyer doesn't connect to XBL. As a result, you'd be selling multiple copies of something you only bought once, which is essentially piracy, and you'd be selling something that will become void the moment the buyer decides to go online.

As far as the legality of selling your account goes, obviously an EULA or ToS can't contravene local laws and consumer rights, and it's not as if the swat team is going to kick in your door even if you are doing something 'wrong', but as far as eBay and the like are concerned, big content is always right.

[FoxNtd]

There is no personal information tied in. There has never, ever been any financially-related material used with the account either. Like I said no CC/debit info was ever submitted at any time, absolutely everything was purchased using pre-paid cards. The profile on the system is just there as it is part of the system's normal operations. I'd equate it to the system config save file on a PS2 memory card for a PS2. It's just a mechanism towards general operations of the device. I don't consider the icon on the corner of the screen or "gamerscore" to be information that somehow is a "loss" to me if I do sell the console.


There is a scenario where you would in fact be violating copyright.
You can authorize one console per year to run XBL content without having to be signed in with your account, with the limitation that XBL will de-authorize them once they are authorized for another console. So, basically, you could load up one console per year with all of your digital downloads and sell it, and they will function just fine so long as the buyer doesn't connect to XBL. As a result, you'd be selling multiple copies of something you only bought once, which is essentially piracy, and you'd be selling something that will become void the moment the buyer decides to go online.

As far as the legality of selling your account goes, obviously an EULA or ToS can't contravene local laws and consumer rights, and it's not as if the swat team is going to kick in your door even if you are doing something 'wrong', but as far as eBay and the like are concerned, big content is always right.

But I'm not selling multiple copies. That data is tied to the machine it's on, and everything will be sold together as one unit in one shot. I have no duplicates or other Xboxes. I'm not trying to sell something and retain a copy. The buyer will have everything and no copying of any kind will have ever been done. In the future if this system dies on the buyer he will do exactly what everyone already does when the system dies; get it replaced and transfer the HDD contents to the new machine etc. You can hook up this machine to XBL; there's no issue with doing so. Everything plays fine without XBL though.

As a side note I was surprised not to hear so far about people buying used Wii's with a bunch of VC downloads on them for a good deal. It makes sense to me; if I wanted a Wii and lots of Famicom downloads or something like that I'd definitely look for a used system and get a good deal instead of buying a bare system and buying all the downloads "new".

[kedawa]

I would just letterbomb.
Your money isn't going to the developers either way.

[Rickstilwell1]

Also remember in the UK a law was passed that says it is ok to resell digital content you paid for. So it would be even less gray to sell it to someone in Europe.

[kedawa]

You can also get refunds for Steam games in the UK.
Lucky bastards.

[JSoup]

By the way I could apply the idea to physical games too: "It would be stupid to pay more for the games when you can just copy all the games for free anyway" yet we still pay for games.

Cheap =/= convenient. Your average pirate is balancing both of these when they pirate something.

[FoxNtd]

Cheap =/= convenient. Your average pirate is balancing both of these when they pirate something.

That sentence I wrote in quotes was just a counterpoint for someone, and was not supposed to digress to some kind of approach regarding economizing and/or convenience.

Nice seeing that tidbit about the UK. I hear Valve is in legal trouble with the EU in general over disallowing reselling any purchased games due to the nature of Steam but that's not the topic of this thread so I won't elaborate on that here.

[JSoup]

That sentence I wrote in quotes was just a counterpoint for someone, and was not supposed to digress to some kind of approach regarding economizing and/or convenience.

And then I decided it was worth pointing out, so now it's precisely all those things.

[skaar]

I'd like a citation that explains how this is "illegal".

http://www.copyright.gov/title17/

[LimitedEditionMuseum]

I think the OP was talking about the value of all the games. I think.

[FoxNtd]

http://www.copyright.gov/title17/

Assuming you're not being a smartass or something what exactly in the details of the notion of copyright somehow prevents selling my Xbox from being legal?

Every single video game is copyrighted. So what? You can sell any of your games just fine. Come back when you have something with more substance than just pointing to a massive document that says "oh, copyright".

[BlastProcessing402]

Right, as long as you aren't keeping copies of those digital downloads, you aren't breaking copyright to sell them. It might violate TOS, but not the law.

[kedawa]

I think what it boils down to is that you can sell the console no matter what, but if you are explicitly selling the content, then you are violating the ToS, not that it really matters. If you're the buyer, you simply don't have a valid license to the games on the console, not that it really matters.