RetroN 5 is officially a thing, apparently

[LimitedEditionMuseum]

Was GBA that popular of a system where they would add a slot just for it?

[MyTurnToPlay]

This piece of crap is still being discussed? I thought my advance preview was sufficient warning. I've looked at the data. I've analyzed the results, and this thing is complete junk. But I guess all you zombie lemmings are dead set on throwing your money away on Hyperscam's chinese trash products.

I'm always amazed at the idiots out there. When some bullsh*t self declared gaming expert hypes up a predictably retarded new product...then all his no life loyal followers jump on his nuts and waste their money on a stupid ass product. Well...go ahead and throw your money away you lemmings.

thank you.

[MachineGex]

This piece of crap is still being discussed? I thought my advance preview was sufficient warning. I've looked at the data. I've analyzed the results, and this thing is complete junk. But I guess all you zombie lemmings are dead set on throwing your money away on Hyperscam's chinese trash products.

I'm always amazed at the idiots out there. When some bullsh*t self declared gaming expert hypes up a predictably retarded new product...then all his no life loyal followers jump on his nuts and waste their money on a stupid ass product. Well...go ahead and throw your money away you lemmings.

thank you.

Please ban this lying piece of crap^. He has was caught before lying and warned, now it's time for him to go..................

[Satoshi_Matrix]

Yes. MyTurnToPlay's posts need to be deleted and and his account banned. Dude I've given you the benefit of the doubt. You don't like clones? Fine. But you keep making posts filled with lies.

[treismac]

Don't be a HATER

Being a cheerleader for your favorite game or system is encouraged. Being a system-basher is not. Respect the fact that everyone has their favorites and back off when they're enjoying theirs. Accept the fact that this is a video game forum that crosses platforms and eras so you're not going to agree with everyone's passion. No need to stomp it out just because you disagree. Constructive input is ALWAYS welcome here but show yourself to be a " system basher" or "anti-fanboy" and you won't be long for *this* world.

So, technically speaking, do clones count as a system, 'cause if they do perhaps someone should read MyTurnToPlay the last rites.

[retromario]

I will buy one when it is released. I have a few of their other systems and have had no issues with them.

[Satoshi_Matrix]

So, technically speaking, do clones count as a system, 'cause if they do perhaps someone should read MyTurnToPlay the last rites.

Yes, as stated in the rules, MyTurnToPlay does nothing but attack clones and supporters and therefore should be banned. I do not mind honest opinionated discussion, but this guy is nothing short of a hater, even if some of his points carry a certain level of validity. More than that, claiming to have future knowledge of the Retorn4 or any other system is nothing short of bullshit, plain and simple. Get this guy outta here.

When the system comes out, I and others will review it and bring you honest and unbiased facts about what it gets right, what it gets wrong and what it's has the future potential to fix.

[Ace]

I'll be joining in on the unbiased reviewing of the system. I may be a bit harsh on Hyperkin as since the release of the RetroN3, I have a rather negative opinion of the company after all their recent screw-ups:

-Promise an NOAC that's superior to the one in the FC Mobile II for the RetroN3 Version 1, the finished product has a shit NOAC that's worse than what's in the FC Mobile II
-Release the SupaBoy, has severe squealing issues which persisted even in certain replacement units
-Revise the RetroN3 to make the RetroN3 Version 2 with improved NES compatibility (not accuracy, which makes no sense), but at the same time, Super NES audio is COMPLETELY screwed up
-Release the RetroN2, turns out to be no better than an FC Twin at a higher price tag (and in some aspects, is EVEN WORSE than the FC Twin, namely Super NES audio which is in dual Mono on the RetroN2 compared to full Stereo on the FC Twin)
-Revise the RetroN3 to make the RetroN3 Version 3, becomes a downgrade of the console as the Super NES audio was not fixed and the improved compatibility of the RetroN3 Version 2 has been REMOVED

You can see where I'm going with this. I don't have a favorable opinion of Hyperkin, but the RetroN4 looks to be a totally different beast than any of their previous efforts. It could either blow them all out of the water or be a complete piece of crap. We'll know for sure when it's released.

[buzz_n64]

I've got cautious pessimism about this system, but I'd love for it to work well. Compatibility with the most games possible being of key importance to me.

[Frankie_Says_Relax]

This piece of crap is still being discussed? I thought my advance preview was sufficient warning. I've looked at the data. I've analyzed the results, and this thing is complete junk. But I guess all you zombie lemmings are dead set on throwing your money away on Hyperscam's chinese trash products.

I'm always amazed at the idiots out there. When some bullsh*t self declared gaming expert hypes up a predictably retarded new product...then all his no life loyal followers jump on his nuts and waste their money on a stupid ass product. Well...go ahead and throw your money away you lemmings.

thank you.

A representative from Hyperkin responded to you in this thread and publicly verified that you do not have any access to a Retron 4, so consider this your first, last and only public warning.

You're a liar and nobody here cares about your opinion on clone hardware.

Cut the bullshit in these threads or face discipline.

[Satoshi_Matrix]

Frankie_Says_Relax, why don't we just simply ban him? It's not like this is his first offense. The dude has on multiple occasions broken forum policy by spreading hate and disrespecting others for their opinions when it comes to clone hardware. I'm all for free speech, but there's a difference between saying

"I don't like ______ because ______ but this is of course, only my opinion"

and

"______ is crap, and anyone who thinks otherwise is an idiot, and btw, I'm a prophet from the future bringing you the gospel that my opinion equals fact".

Why should we tolerate MyTurnToPlay any more? Just as his username suggests, he has had his turn to play, and now it should be game over for him.

Anyway, back on topic.


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So guys, News!!!

Watch this video!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5OcNy7t17LA

Hyperkin has announced Famicom 60 pin cartridge support, changing the name to the Retron5. It has also confirmed GB and GBC support!

This means the RetroN5 will play natively support Famicom, NES, SNES, Super Famicom, Genesis, MegaDrive, GameBoy, GameBoy Color and GameBoy Advance games. It also may even support the Famicom Disk System, Sega Master System via the Power Base Converter and possibly the Sega 32X. That's a LOT of support right there.

It will feature six controller ports - 2 NES, 2 SNES, 2 Genesis. What's news is that players will be able to use any controller they want for any system! The example they give is that users will be able to use SNES controllers to play Genesis games. This is spectacular news and washes away the worries of what controllers will or won't work with GBA games.

The system will also feature AV (not S-Video too?) video outputs as well as the aforementioned HDMI. It will also have a USB port for charging the wireless controller. No more AAA batters makes me very happy.

The bluetooth wireless controller will have a six button layout similar to the Genesis, but will look nothing like the Genesis looking controller that came with the Retorn3. It also will not have a d-pad, but an microswitch driven click-stick, which seems similar to the NeoGeo CD. The NeoGeo Pocket Color has in my option the best click stick EVER, but using it in place of a standard dpad? That might work, but it might fall flat on its face. Impossible to tell without actually using it.

The wireless controller will also allow users to custom map the button layout, and it will save custom configurations. As well, button remapping will also be available for original NES, SNES and Genesis controllers! This is yet more good news. It means for example, Ninja Gaiden Trilogy for SNES can be remapped with a real SNES controller to use the Y & B buttons instead of the B and A as originally used. Also Famicom and NES games that have "reversed" controls like Challenger can be fixed, making them much more enjoyable.

The system will have an OS that will be more than just a digital system switcher. It will allow users to create save states, it will auto-save for when the system is suddenly turned off, will offer a "cheat menu" (which could mean built in GameGenie/Action Reply support) and also offer what Hyperkin is calling Manual & Passive Overclocking - gamers will be able to change the speed of their game anytime they wish, offering both slowdown and fast-forward.

These are all common emulator features. To see them in a dedicated console that plays actual cartridges is very, very welcome.


Confirmed: Retorn5 will up-convert video signals to a max 720p. Users can also choose the aspect ratio - you can choose the original 4:3 if you so desire, or stretch to 16:9. VERY WELCOME OPTION.

It will feature something Hyperkin calls "Audio Interpolation" which they claim will clean up analog audio for digital output. I'm not going to comment on this until what they are talking about myself.


Questions asked by the audience (as best I could hear due to poor audio):

Q: What will the price be?
A: We don't have a price point [at this time] but we will say it will be under $100.

Q: Will you be adding N64 game support in the future?
A: We have looked into that, and we won't make a comment as of this time.

Q: What is the release date?
A: Essentially, TBA, though they said they will announce something after June.

Q: Do you have a demo unit?
A: Yes, we currently have an alpha system that is running Street Fighter Alpha 2.

Q: Will the Retorn5 support firmware updates?
A: Yes, although how exactly is yet to be determined.

Q: Have you thought of adding support for other retro systems (Atari, Amiga, TurboGrapfx16/PC Engine)?
A: It's market depending. If that market grows, then yes. [this is marketing jargon for "no, probably not"]

Q: Will lag be an issue?
A: hard to tell what they said. I think they said essentially no, beyond what was there natively with the original games.


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


So yeah. As Ace's comment said above, Hyperkin has a lot of past baggage and so yes, a lot of retro gamers have legitimate concerns for the Retron4.....err, Retron5. However, based on the newest information Hyperkin has provided, things are looking brighter than ever for them and the community as a whole.

With all the announcements they made through, Hyperkin still didn't say a word about compatibility of past problematic games like Castlevania 3, Mario RPG and Virtua Racing for example. Still, that doesn't mean a thing at this point. Until it's actually released, predictions are completely pointless, either for or against individual game compatibility.

Anyone who says otherwise is full of it. It's like someone saying they can predict who will win the Superbowl - in 20 years from now. There's really nothing we can do but wait and see.

Hyperkin also didn't say anything about some other features. The alpha system shown doesn't have a reset button. This might be incorporated into the software itself though. With Famicom support comes a whole lot of Famicom only soundchips, so will the Retron5 be able to run these correctly? Speaking of which, they still didn't say anything about the NES/Famicom HD video output. I wish someone had asked if NES/Famicom games would run in 720p.

Regardless, for me personally, all this news pretty much confirms that Hyperkin is going to be running an emulation based, dedicated computer that will be extremely different from anything the market has seen thus far. Sophisticated emulation software that runs the original cartridges sounds like voodoo magic to me, and yet here apparently is. If Hyperkin can pull this off well, they have a real chance at being the dream system many of us have been wanting pretty much since childhood.

[Ace]

I can't watch the video right now as I'm on my friend's 3DS XL, but by reading everything that followed, I only have two words:

HOLY SHIT

Either the RetroN5 will be the most awesome clone console to date, or it will be the most overhyped piece of shit to have ever been released since Famiclones first became legal in 2005.

I'll be honest, I'm looking forward to trying out the RetroN5. This will be the big one for Hyperkin; if they screw this up, any little shred of respect I have for this company will go down the toilet. On the other hand, if the RetroN5 beats out every other clone released so far, my hat's off to them, and may completely change my opinion of Hyperkin.

[Satoshi_Matrix]

But won't you hate it on principal of it being an emulation machine and your hatred of emulation? Essentially, almost everything announced for the Retorn5 are similar features to what a modded original Xbox or Wii can do, only that it runs cartridges, not roms. For me personally, it sounds like the best of both worlds.

[Ace]

Considering most commercial software emulation-based clones have generally been inferior to their hardware clone counterparts, I don't actually have high expectations for the accuracy of the whole thing, but if software emulation turns out to be superior to reverse-engineered hardware, I'll give that higher praise. It's not necessarily a question of principle, it's a question of the overall accuracy, and with the exception of the NES, reverse-engineered hardware has generally given better results in that regard. If the RetroN5 runs good emulators for each console which surpass any effort so far using reverse-engineered hardware, I'll put that over reverse-engineered hardware.

[Koa Zo]

Addition of the Famicom cart slot is great, but it's unfortunate that no Famicom controller port was added.

[Leo_A]

They really need a SD card slot so we can load roms onto this or allow a USB thumb drive with roms to be plugged into the USB port (Which is hopefully one reason why it has one beyond just to recharge the controller battery and presumably for firmware updates). There's no legality reason why they can't impliment it and other clone companies have done so like AtGames with no repercussions.

That simple step, if the product is otherwise done well, would be a huge draw for classic gamers that otherwise face buying numerous expensive reprogramable multicarts that often have compatibility issues, can sometimes be confusing to setup, and often just refuse to work in clones.


If the RetroN5 runs good emulators for each console which surpass any effort so far using reverse-engineered hardware, I'll put that over reverse-engineered hardware.

I really doubt that they will surpass the Super Nintendo chip we see in things like the RetroDuo. I heard that the earliest version had colors off on the Super FX games, but the sound and video accuracy on my slightly later unit has been perfect and it plays 99% of the library.

[Pikointeractive]

The reason why (IMO) clone consoles are going towards emulation is that 5voltage chips have been discontinued and no longer in production anymore. Those parts were usualy used on the consoles and cartridges. A solution i am using is voltage converters from 5 to 3.3 for my boards so the flash memory doesnt get burned. This means that those convertors limit the hardware and will raise the price of manufacturing. So the best solution is high accurate emulation.

[Ace]

I really doubt that they will surpass the Super Nintendo chip we see in things like the RetroDuo. I heard that the earliest version had colors off on the Super FX games, but the sound and video accuracy on my slightly later unit has been perfect.

You're thinking of the incredibly old GF-6970 series Super NES 3-chip chipset found in the FC Twin Version 1. That one had noticeable color inaccuracies not just in SuperFX games, but in other games as well. The TCT-970 series 3-chip chipset which appeared in legal clones starting with the FC Twin Version 2 in 2007 (and appears to be pin-for-pin compatible with the GF-6970 chipset - wouldn't be surprised if this was the base for the TCT-970 chipset) is a big leap ahead, but I did find one color inaccuracy with the chipset in Contra III's overhead stages. Basically, all the background colors are either too bright or completely wrong. Every single Super Famiclone with the TCT-970 suffers from this problem. Play Contra III until the first overhead stage and you'll notice the incorrect colors right away.


Beyond a few games with higher security measures that refuse to play since it has been said that it would require including copyrighted code associated with the Super Nintendo's lockout chip (Copyrights last much longer than patents), the chip recreation of the Super Nintendo has been virtually perfect (At least in the case of the RetroDuo; I'm not the closest follower of clones and actually don't have any others like the various handhelds we've seen since they always seem to have an issue like poor d-pads that have kept me away so I can't speak across the board that it's the case).

What I would like to know is how the RetroDuo Portable manages to get around the lockout chip check implemented in SA-1 games. I have a Japanese copy of Super Mario RPG which refuses to boot on most clones except if I were to fiddle around with the power switch, though on some consoles, it flat out won't work. On the RetroDuo Portable v2.0 I have, this cartridge loads first time every time. How does that work?


And considering the steep hardware requirements for the only Super Nintendo PC emulator that is anywhere close to 100%, I really doubt that they're going to get even close where the Super Nintendo side is concerned in a ~$100 mass produced clone system intended to play software from the library of several consoles and handhelds.

I really wish the Super Nintendo portion was hardware based since it has been so well done in the past. But I suppose it could possibly introduce lag and video quality issues just upscaling that signal compared to the other systems that are being emulated and directly outputted and there might be difficulty getting the system OS to function similarly when in use compared to the emulated platforms. And they certainly wouldn't want to increase their cost by doing it which is the #1 reason why they won't go that route here.

Okay, now you REALLY made me want to know exactly what kind of hardware the RetroN5 is using. All this speculation is flying around and there's no definitive answer from Hyperkin (WITH IMAGES, PLEASE!!!). I'm actually thinking it could be one of 3 things:

-Reverse-engineered hardware combined with some other hardware
-Software emulation
-An FPGA

Which of these do you think it is?


The reason why (IMO) clone consoles are going towards emulation is that 5voltage chips have been discontinued and no longer in production anymore.

There is no way I can see that as a possibility. Production of NOACs, GOACs and the TCT-970 Super NES 3-chip chipset is still alive and well, and with the release of the SupaBoy a while back, that TCT-970 chipset was shrunk down.

[OldSchoolGamer]

Frankie_Says_Relax, why don't we just simply ban him? It's not like this is his first offense. The dude has on multiple occasions broken forum policy by spreading hate and disrespecting others for their opinions when it comes to clone hardware. I'm all for free speech, but there's a difference between saying

"I don't like ______ because ______ but this is of course, only my opinion"

and

"______ is crap, and anyone who thinks otherwise is an idiot, and btw, I'm a prophet from the future bringing you the gospel that my opinion equals fact".

Why should we tolerate MyTurnToPlay any more? Just as his username suggests, he has had his turn to play, and now it should be game over for him.

Agree, I mean just go through his history of post and the percentage of them are hate posts, lies and calling everyone who suggests otherwise fools etc. He says things like "Go ahead and waste your money" blah blah, blah but he never just drops it after that, just keeps going, seriously with the majority of content he has contributed he surely will no be missed.

[Leo_A]

For their price point, an FPGA that could emulate something like the GBA is much too expensive. It seems pretty certain that it's software emulation.

Devices in this price point relying on emulation with modern hardware is well within reason these days and becoming pretty common.

[treismac]

They really need a SD card slot so we can load roms onto this or allow a USB thumb drive with roms to be plugged into the USB port (Which is hopefully one reason why it has one beyond just to recharge the controller battery and presumably for firmware updates).

Here, here. Come on, Hyperkin. Go all the way with this one.

[Frankie_Says_Relax]

Agree, I mean just go through his history of post and the percentage of them are hate posts, lies and calling everyone who suggests otherwise fools etc. He says things like "Go ahead and waste your money" blah blah, blah but he never just drops it after that, just keeps going, seriously with the majority of content he has contributed he surely will no be missed.

I understand everybody's frustration, and even though this seems like a slam dunk of a banning, ultimately this matter requires administrative conference.

I'm at PAX EAST with Digital Press all weekend and I've had really limited computer access. I'll drop the other admins a note.

[treismac]

In the video's Q & A session they are saying that games with slowdown ( he named Mega Man 3) can be "fine-tuned to work perfectly" with the RetroN 5, surpassing the original hardware. (http://youtu.be/5OcNy7t17LA?t=16m58s) Is this possible? Just the faintest possibility of two player River City Ransom without the slowdown becoming a reality is enough to make me shudder with delight.

I'm actually pretty psyched about what this might turn out to be now. Save states. Famicom slot. HDMI. The spokesperson sounded like Hyperkin was taking compatibility issues really seriously, which is, obviously, where the make or break point lies for the RetroN 5 to go beyond being just another crappy clone. The rest of the clone market will have to step up their game if Hyperkin knocks this one out of the park, which can only mean good things for the retro community. Hell, if they sell tons of these, maybe it'll catch Nintendo's attention, goading them to make their own official multisystem clone.

Also, apparently Hyperkin is open to suggestions for the RetroN 5. Pass 'em on their way either via Facebook or Twitter:

https://www.facebook.com/HyperkinGames?v

https://twitter.com/HyperKin

Personally, playing roms via a SD slot or usb drive is a biggie on my list. On a loftier note, being able to do netplay with other owners on RetroN 5s would be mind shatteringly rad, but this is almost certainly too tall an order. I'd like controller ports for the same system to stay on the same side of the console so the NES Satellite or Four Score can work with it.

By the way, if it is more or less universally acknowledged by critics that the RetroN 5 is in all ways kickass, I think it is only fair that MyTurnToPlay's should have to deep fry the system and record himself eating it in order to continue to be a member in this forum.

[Leo_A]

Speeding things up isn't a problem. We've even seen commercial emulation projects that do that like the speed up modes on Atari Anthology.

But I really doubt you can fine tune it. What an ideal CPU speed is at one point of a game isn't necessarily the same elsewhere. Slow down would have to be consistent otherwise areas that didn't slow down would now run too fast if you speed things up to fix the slow moments.

So while I doubt it's of any real use for Mega Man 3, it might work out well for two player River City Ransom if the mode just runs slow in general like some multiplayer modes do. Another potential use is with un-optimized PAL releases.


They really need a SD card slot so we can load roms onto this or allow a USB thumb drive with roms to be plugged into the USB port (Which is hopefully one reason why it has one beyond just to recharge the controller battery and presumably for firmware updates).

I should learn to read. This already includes a SD card slot for saving save states.

So even less of an excuse not to do it. A USB thumb drive might've not been an option if the USB port is only there to provide power to recharge the battery. But with a SD slot, that doesn't matter since they can obviously read/write to the SD card if it's for storing save states.

[Satoshi_Matrix]

Addition of the Famicom cart slot is great, but it's unfortunate that no Famicom controller port was added.

Keep in mind this is an early alpha system so the design could/probably will change. But also remember that the Famicom 15 pin ports are electrically compatible with the standard 7 pin ports used in the west and then with the AV Famicom. Almost all controllers and devices for the DB-15 port of the Famicom can be modified to work with the 7 pin connector, or an adapter can be made. This really shouldn't be any concern you have.



They really need a SD card slot so we can load roms onto this or allow a USB thumb drive with roms to be plugged into the USB port (Which is hopefully one reason why it has one beyond just to recharge the controller battery and presumably for firmware updates). There's no legality reason why they can't implement it and other clone companies have done so like AtGames with no repercussions.


I do understand your point an see where you're coming from, but personally, I do not agree. While I wouldn't have an issue with Hyperkin adding in direct ROM support as an optional game input, I honestly don't feel it is needed nor practical. If you're going to be running an emulation machine that runs games directly off a storage device, at that point, you might as well use a modified Xbox or modified Wii, systems that are currently on the market and cost less than this fancy new device.

The entire point of the Retrorn5 is to serve the retro community by playing the physical cartridges we all collect, buy, trade, play and adore. An SD card sort of defeats the purpose. By adding in a SD card slot, I feel it would take something away. Still, as I said, I'm not opposed to the idea of direct ROM support like the awful AtGames clones.... just saying that it isn't necessary.



I understand everybody's frustration, and even though this seems like a slam dunk of a banning, ultimately this matter requires administrative conference.

I'm at PAX EAST with Digital Press all weekend and I've had really limited computer access. I'll drop the other admins a note.

Thanks. It's not that we don't want any negative opinions of the Retron5 or anything else, we just want open discussion. For all the points I've ever read, MyTurnToPlay doesn't seem interested in discussion, only trolling. As long as the admin know that many of us are frustrated by his continued one dimensional viewpoints, I'm happy.

[treismac]

***Note: I'm not trying to be a bastard with this response, Satoshi Matrix, so please don't take offense.***


I do understand your point an see where you're coming from, but personally, I do not agree. While I wouldn't have an issue with Hyperkin adding in direct ROM support as an optional game input, I honestly don't feel it is needed nor practical. If you're going to be running an emulation machine that runs games directly off a storage device, at that point, you might as well use a modified Xbox or modified Wii, systems that are currently on the market and cost less than this fancy new device.

I always thought that a big selling point of multi-system clones was to consolidate your video game systems. If being able to play roms in addition to carts on the RetroN 5 means a gamer could shelf the space eating clunker that is the Xbox, then it would be very practical indeed.


The entire point of the Retrorn5 is to serve the retro community...

You could have stopped right there and been bang on. The RetroN 5 is a video game console. Playing video games is its purpose. As far as I am concerned, playing the physical cartridges of different retro systems is merely its means of doing such. Expanding its means of serving the retro community by adding rom support does no violence to the "point of the system" anymore then if someone buys the clone and pops in a flash cart for each respective system's cartridge slot.


Still, as I said, I'm not opposed to the idea of direct ROM support like the awful AtGames clones.... just saying that it isn't necessary.

Convenience and luxury are never necessary, and we are talking about a video game system rather than a toaster, after all. This clone could just have some hard-wired controllers and no controller ports and it would still be functional. HMDI isn't necessary either when a rf connector would suffice. If "the entire point of the Retrorn5 is to serve the retro community," let it serve us with gusto. The only reason to restrain from withholding convenience or luxury is either cost or legal concerns.

Reiterating the preface of my response, I'm not trying to be a jerk with my critiques of your comments. I just think that notions of "purism" being attached to aftermarket clones by gamers are misplaced. If the argument or sentiment is going to be made, implicitly or otherwise, that playing cartridges is sacred and that is what the RetroN 5 does, would not the same line of reasoning for the sake of consistency also cry sacrilege that the original hardware is not being used? From a functional standpoint, aren't the integrity of roms (providing they aren't corrupted) easier to maintain over attempts at replicating the hardware or performance of a video game system? I get that using physical carts over roms replicates the external experience more closely, and that is an important part of retro gaming for many, no doubt. I just don't think it tarnishes the experience of popping a cartridge into a clone if the thing also happens to be able to play roms.

[Tupin]

Hm, this does look impressive. I will wait until I see pictures of an actual unit, though.

[Cryog]

Prototype Retron 4

6463

System Menu (beta)

6464

Retron 5 test with Street Fighter Alpha 2


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vYu105dMnOk

[MachineGex]

Thank you Frankie for considering banning MyTurn. I have never felt the need to support a ban on another member, but the constant lying despite several warnings is old and needs to be dealt with. I am sure you guys will take care of it, again, thank you.

I personally love the fact that companies take the risk to make new systems. I think we should be less harsh and not expect perfection considering what it takes to get it running. We all have the internet, read reviews.

On DP, there are several people who do honest reviews. As a responsible consumer, watch/read the reviews. If it has too many flaws, don't buy it. If the flaws are minor to you, buy it. Simple as that. Don't just blindly bash ALL clones cuz that is what everyone else does.

These companies are trying to make a needed product and I appreciate the effort even though some are better than others. I personally own several and can easily overlook the minor flaws. I like having choices.

As far as the new system, it sounds fantastic. If it delivers, I think this may be a universally excepted clone.............................or not....

[wiggyx]

http://www.digitpress.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6463&d=1364163816

Dear lord is that ugly! It looks like someone made an all-in-one using Tupperware as the makeshift housing :?

[Gameguy]

The entire point of the Retrorn5 is to serve the retro community by playing the physical cartridges we all collect, buy, trade, play and adore.
I think the point of these consoles are more for the casual player that just wants to play a few games from a few different systems, rather than collectors who have hundreds of games. Most casual fans aren't really aware of flash carts or emulation so they opt to buying a handful of original carts from local game stores, the same stores who stock these consoles. It makes sense for stores to sell cheap all-in-one consoles as they'll be selling more cartidges that way, someone buys a console for NES games and they might still pick up some SNES or Genesis games too. These stores sell these consoles but not flashcarts, it's pretty obvious why.

It's like saying the all-in-one boomboxes sold in Walmart are aimed at audiophiles.

[Tupin]

http://www.digitpress.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6463&d=1364163816

Dear lord is that ugly! It looks like someone made an all-in-one using Tupperware as the makeshift housing :?
Apparently, that's just a prototype.

[Cryog]

http://www.digitpress.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6463&d=1364163816

Dear lord is that ugly! It looks like someone made an all-in-one using Tupperware as the makeshift housing :?

6465

This is the final revision of the Retron 5 ... is a black beauty !!!! :ass:

[Leo_A]

The entire point of the Retrorn5 is to serve the retro community by playing the physical cartridges we all collect, buy, trade, play and adore. An SD card sort of defeats the purpose. By adding in a SD card slot, I feel it would take something away. Still, as I said, I'm not opposed to the idea of direct ROM support like the awful AtGames clones.... just saying that it isn't necessary.

The last I knew, the entire point of this is to play classic games from a variety of popular platforms from years gone by with a minimum of fuss on a brand new and economically priced system appropriate for connecting to the HDTV's that dominate many homes today.

Allowing the SD slot that's already included to load roms doesn't defeat the purpose any more than allowing the option to use original controllers in lieu of the bundled in universal BlueTooth wireless controller would. It's simply another logical option to include that would appeal to many of their potential customers.

What could the option possibly take away from this device? What complexity do you think there would be in allowing this capability on a emulation device that already supports reading and writing to SD memory? And so what if it's not necessary?

Neither is having six original controller ports on here, remapping buttons, save states, and so on and so on.


Dear lord is that ugly! It looks like someone made an all-in-one using Tupperware as the makeshift housing :?

Look at pictures of their previous effort.

Designing an attractive machine is the one thing I think we can all be sure about not happening here. But at least solid black improves it a bit by helping conceal some of the strange lines of this system. Looks better than that red/black combination at the very least.

[buzz_n64]

Retron 5? What happened to 4?

[Leo_A]

They added a dedicated Famicom cartridge slot. So now it has five cartridge slots. Thus the five.

[Satoshi_Matrix]

@ treismac: Again, my point is just that direct fed ROM support through some storage medium isn't necessary. I'm not totally against the idea. If they include it great; but if not I won't be heartbroken. It's just not something I think I'd use much even if it were present.

You want it though? Great. Unlike MyTurnToPlay, I won't crap over your opinion just because mine is different.

@ MachineGex: I agree. I normally have extreme tolerance and think most forums ban people more they they should, but this guy really does need to go.

@ wiggyx: I don't really think it's THAT ugly, but keep in mind it's just a prototype. Also keep in mind Hyperkin's other projects, like the Retorn3, have never exactly been the most visually pleasing devices to begin with. Even the way it is now, the Retorn5 looks better than anything Hyperkin has ever done.

@ Leo_A: Again, I merely don't think Hyperkin needs to do this to make their clone a resounding success. ROM support is a gray area, both legally and morally. If Hyperkin goes ahead with direct ROM feed support in addition to the cartridge support, it's not like I'm going to start complaining.

Just so there's no confusion, let me say it once again:

FOR ME PERSONALLY, the most important aspect is HD playback of the original cartridges. Direct ROM feed is something outside of that that I neither dislike or am against - I simply feel that it's not necessary given everything else Hyperkin has brought to the table with this design.

[Leo_A]

I certainly agree that good quality HD upscaling is very important. That, accuracy (Which goes hand in hand with compatibility), proper controller support (Seems assured, at least for standard controllers), and good quality construction so something like a power button doesn't fail on me are at the top of my list. Save states, import support (Particularly for PAL regions), and the ability to load roms are at my second tier of importance.

Since I have original hardware hooked up to a nice CRT, where this has a chance to legitimately take up residence on my HDTV will be its ability to offer up things I can't or can't easily get from original hardware. One is HD support of course, but another would be the ability to load roms (Which I lack any sort of device that can do it for the Game Boy range). So if that happens, it makes this all the more attractive.

[MyTurnToPlay]

I do not mean to hijack this thread...but it's come to my attention that several members are asking for my head. I must respectfully disagree with this. If I have been passionate in my views it is only because I am tendentious by nature, sententious by practice, and emotional due to circumstance. The circumstance naturally being the current discourse, namely, clone hardware and it's affiliates. I realize my approach has not been the most civilized. However, I must point out that I have never once attacked, slandered, or besmirched anyone on this forum. I have spoken only in generalities...generalities it seems which some members have misguidedly taken as personal affronts.

Be that as it may, I offer my apologies, and resolve, heretofore, to try my best to conduct myself in a manner more appropriate. This forum is populated with excellent noteworthy men, and I hope your forgiving hearts will be yet another indicator of such qualities.

Sincerely,
MyTurnToPlay

thank you.

[Leo_A]

You haven't spoken in generalities. That's the problem.

You've taken to lying and portraying your strong opinions as if they were facts in order to drag companies and products through the mud to further your personal vendetta. And this time you were caught lying about a product that you supposedly had access to a preview unit of when a company representative saw your nonsense and confirmed everyone's suspicions.

So now you've been put on notice to stop the nonsense. The best thing you can do is consider yourself lucky and if you want to remain a member here, change your habits instead of posting melodrama at a videogame forum.

[treismac]

...I offer my apologies, and resolve, heretofore, to try my best to conduct myself in a manner more appropriate. This forum is populated with excellent noteworthy men, and I hope your forgiving hearts will be yet another indicator of such qualities.

Sincerely,
MyTurnToPlay

thank you.

Not that my words carry any weight in such matters around here, but I see no reason not to offer a second chance in light of your apology. If a person abuses a second chance, it confirms that the repeat offender deserves no respect and that the extender of mercy may now have all uncertainty over cutting ties assuaged.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Just checked my Facebook and there was a response from Hyperkin to my suggestion of adding rom play to the Retron 5:

"Travis...playing roms via a SD card slot or USB Drive has some legal ramifications, hence, this will not be a feature of the RetroN 5."

So, yeah. Looks like this won't be (officially) happening. Damn.

[YoshiM]

I got a chance to see the demo hardware in action at the Midwest Gaming Classic. The crew had F-Zero playing on an LCD TV through HDMI and it looks really sweet. Vibrant colors, sound seemed pretty spot on and the speed looked right. I didn't get a chance to play it as someone else was racing and a little voice saying "Daddy! Daddy!" the voice's hand kept beating me in the leg with a balloon.

The universal controller was very odd feeling. It fit I. My hand but the shape was angular. The thumb stick "nub" had micro switches and it audibly clicked when you moved it. Not sure if I'm a fan of that. But with all the controller ports, does it matter?

I am intrigued. I was burned by the NEX, which was my first clone, so here's hoping this turns out better.

[8-Bit Archeology]

I am looking forward to a demo when it finally reaches my friends Play N Trade. I have never used a system like this but the idea is great. I have a lot of consoles but am planning on a more minimal layout for my upstairs living area. as the downstairs is going to be my museum and is currently a mess. I think this would offer the cleaner layout upstairs, so I can have my TV mounted and not need as much shelf space. Cause honestly I love my games, but everyone who comes in my house, the first thing they see is my games. And hearing that I have a problem when the few who dont like games come over is getting old.

[Satoshi_Matrix]

I have spoken only in generalities...generalities it seems which some members have misguidedly taken as personal affronts.

Be that as it may, I offer my apologies

Sorry, but that comes across as a shallow, empty apology. You should be apologizing not for expressing your opinions (though you didn't do so in a proper, respectful manner) but instead for lying about the advanced access to the system and fabricating a story about the apparent lack of quality of the Retorn4 to fit your personal distaste of Hyperkin and clones in general.

I don't know if you've been following the Retorn5 story and this thread, but in light of what Hyperkin has recently announced, the Retorn5 will be a totally different beast from all other clones ever made and could be a game changer that causes all other clone companies to significantly boost quality.





I was burned by the NEX, which was my first clone, so here's hoping this turns out better.

Despite having a run-of-the-mill 2005 NOAC, everything else about the NEX I absolutely love - its size, it's design, it's controllers, and it's on the surface production values. I'm on the hunt for a small, fairly decent NOAC Famiclone that I can dismantle and install inside the body of the NEX. If only the NEX had a better NOAC, it would be the king of Famiclones. Currently, that honor goes to the TriStar/Super 8.

[Ed Oscuro]

Following over my post from here (http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=45081), there's a few things I'd like to point out:

First, I believe they will be offering scanline emulation on HDTVs. This could be a Good Thing for many users - we'll have to see how it's implemented.

Secondly, I better just leave their quote here:

The boxy aspect ratio of old-school games results in black bars on the sides of a wide-screen display. Hyperkin is considering ways of filling that space, either with game data, or to stretch the picture by showing stuff that’s already passed by the screen.
Sounds interesting but could be a mess quickly. On the other hand it would be neat to be able to select regions in memory to display - it could help gamers break down psuedo-random events to the point where they would be able to see what's coming up next.

About "stuff that's already passed by the screen," that just sounds bad, however.

[Leo_A]

The universal controller was very odd feeling. It fit I. My hand but the shape was angular. The thumb stick "nub" had micro switches and it audibly clicked when you moved it. Not sure if I'm a fan of that. But with all the controller ports, does it matter?

I for one would think it would be unfortunate if they produce a well constructed unit that works well with a modern HDTV yet still all but forces us to be tethered with a controller cable since the included wireless controller is so poorly done.

[YoshiM]

Despite having a run-of-the-mill 2005 NOAC, everything else about the NEX I absolutely love - its size, it's design, it's controllers, and it's on the surface production values. I'm on the hunt for a small, fairly decent NOAC Famiclone that I can dismantle and install inside the body of the NEX. If only the NEX had a better NOAC, it would be the king of Famiclones. Currently, that honor goes to the TriStar/Super 8.
I liked the look too and after listening a podcast with a pretty knowledgable person that took it apart and praised the construction, I got one. Unfortunately, after using it my cartridges started to smell like burning plastic.

The company started going downhill so I traded for some console mod work rather than attempt another machine.

But I loved the look....and that arcade joystick.

[MachineGex]

I do not mean to hijack this thread...but it's come to my attention that several members are asking for my head. I must respectfully disagree with this. If I have been passionate in my views it is only because I am tendentious by nature, sententious by practice, and emotional due to circumstance. The circumstance naturally being the current discourse, namely, clone hardware and it's affiliates. I realize my approach has not been the most civilized. However, I must point out that I have never once attacked, slandered, or besmirched anyone on this forum. I have spoken only in generalities...generalities it seems which some members have misguidedly taken as personal affronts.

Be that as it may, I offer my apologies, and resolve, heretofore, to try my best to conduct myself in a manner more appropriate. This forum is populated with excellent noteworthy men, and I hope your forgiving hearts will be yet another indicator of such qualities.

Sincerely,
MyTurnToPlay

thank you.

You don't get it. You are a liar and only add BS to threads. I don't take your shit personal, I just see you as useless and negative. Reading most of your posts leads me to believe DP would be a better place without you.

As far as your apology, your excuses make it hollow and worthless. Take ownership for yourself and your many mistakes....

You will not be around for long, so I'm not too worried about it ..... enjoy yourself while it lasts.

[Pikointeractive]

Wow, i didn't know that playing roms had legal ramifications?

so all those Powerpaks and flash carts are somewhat illegal?

I thought you could own roms of games you own the cartridge.

In another note, besides some exceptions, Digitpress has been the forum with the best response towards the announcement of the retron and my kickstarter.

In other forums it was a bunch of thread crapping, Im impressed; Thanks guys.

[wiggyx]

Wow, i didn't know that playing roms had legal ramifications?

so all those Powerpaks and flash carts are somewhat illegal?

I thought you could own roms of games you own the cartridge.

In another note, besides some exceptions, Digitpress has been the forum with the best response towards the announcement of the retron and my kickstarter.

In other forums it was a bunch of thread crapping, Im impressed; Thanks guys.

No. Ability to play ROMs is not illegal. Downloading/Trading/Selling/Etc ROMs is.



@ wiggyx: I don't really think it's THAT ugly, but keep in mind it's just a prototype. Also keep in mind Hyperkin's other projects, like the Retorn3, have never exactly been the most visually pleasing devices to begin with. Even the way it is now, the Retorn5 looks better than anything Hyperkin has ever done.

Do not agree. Is ugly as fuck.

To me, that's like saying elephant shit is is more pleasant than donkey shit. Either way, you've just got shit.

[Leo_A]

A reprogramable multicart is no more illegal than eprom burners, CD burners, DVD burners, etc. As long as no active patents are infringed (And there are none for most cartridge based systems due to the march of time beyond perhaps some for the GBA) or copyrights (Which are still in force), it's fine.

[Tupin]

Function over form every single time.

[Ed Oscuro]

The RetroN 4 (edit: RetroN 5, whatever it is now) reminds me of the Disturbed remake of Genesis' "Land of Confusion." It even has the same kind of cheap cel shaded look to it...

It's not clear to me yet if RetroN 4 has any analog parts, whether it can output analog RGB, or what kind of emulation (it most assuredly isn't using original CPUs or any kind of derivatives of them) it is using - FPGA, CPU-based, or whatever. I'm not sure whether it will be close enough to the real thing to run all the special demos and so on, for example.

[Satoshi_Matrix]

Wow, i didn't know that playing roms had legal ramifications?

so all those Powerpaks and flash carts are somewhat illegal?

Copyright laws of most countries allow individuals to create back up copies of software they own for their own personal use. It is techincally illegal to download ROMs that someone else ripped, even if you own the original copy. In this case, both you and the distributor are breaking the law. It is also illegal to download ROMs of games you don't own. The loophole is that flashcarts themselves are not illegal because they do not contain any ROMs until the end user puts them on.

All that said, the issue of ROMs is more of a moral issue than a legal one. 99% of the time, these kinds of laws are not enforced, and most people consider it a victimless crime to download retro games as for the most part, the original developers and publishers aren't making any more money. Download services like the Virtual Console skew this somewhat, but again it's mostly a moral question of if it's right to download a ROM of an old game that's on a download service rather than a legal/illegal question.


Personally, I feel that once a game reaches a certain age it ought to be public domain, and people should be able to download what they want much like what happens with books, music and film. I feel strongly about piracy of new games that are on the market because sales lost take food off the table of developers. However, when it comes to games older than ~7 years, that's no longer the case.



It's not clear to me yet if RetroN 4 has any analog parts, whether it can output analog RGB, or what kind of emulation (it most assuredly isn't using original CPUs or any kind of derivatives of them) it is using - FPGA, CPU-based, or whatever. I'm not sure whether it will be close enough to the real thing to run all the special demos and so on, for example.

Hyperkin hasn't said anything and I doubt they will until it's released and people take a look inside. However, my guess is that the Retron5 will be essentially a computer that has cartridge support. There are several clues that lead me to this conclusion:

720p video output. Analog RGB signals, even when converted into digital progressive scan, can produce a maximum 240p. 720p is an HD resolution that simply not possible with the original hardware of any of the systems supported.

Savestates, button remapping, speed settings, audio interpolation, built in cheats, etc. These are all standard emulation options only a computer offers.

Future firmware updates. Firmware means an OS, means computer.

"Our aim is 100% compatibility". The only way to achieve that through clone hardware is through emulation, which means a computer.

[Leo_A]

"Our aim is 100% compatibility". The only way to achieve that through clone hardware is through emulation, which means a computer.

Why is that? A emulator is merely a computer simulation of the hardware. If their recreation of the original hardware ever got good enough, they could do it with hardware.

Certainly the Super Nintendo side is pretty darn close already with clone systems. Not sure why the NES side never seemed to improve by much over the years, but I assume that for every complaint at a classic gaming forum, there were a dozen satisified customers that either never noticed any issues or felt that they were minor enough to not detract from the experience. So probably not much incentive to overhaul a NOAC design to improve accuracy.

[Pikointeractive]

Im aware of all the ROM and flashcarts copyrights and whatnot, but them saying that is weird, I will talk to my contact about that, although I think it is useless to add Rom compatibility. Although, if they add that, it would kill all those flash carts market for the most part; because you can buy a multi emulator console for less than 100 vs a cart for 1 console only for over 100.

Anyways, about the roms online and downloading; I think this rule of copyright might be applicable, thus being the reason why nobody has don a TOS claim to any rom site. Also, that rule was supposed to end on 2009-2010 I do not know if it is still enforced. If you follow the link, there is another link where it goes deeper into that rule, and if I'm not mistake, they say that if the console is discontinued and no longer being manufactured, Roms sites are protected by this rules as they are considered archives.


"The Librarian of Congress, on the recommendation of the Register of Copyrights, has announced the classes of works subject to the exemption from the prohibition against circumvention of technological measures that control access to copyrighted works. Persons making noninfringing uses of the following six classes of works will not be subject to the prohibition against circumventing access controls (17 U.S.C. § 1201(a)(1)) during the next three years.

(3) Computer programs and video games distributed in formats that have become obsolete and which require the original media or hardware as a condition of access. A format shall be considered obsolete if the machine or system necessary to render perceptible a work stored in that format is no longer manufactured or is no longer reasonably available in the commercial marketplace."



Source:

http://www.copyright.gov/1201/2006/

[Leo_A]

Although, if they add that, it would kill all those flash carts market for the most part; because you can buy a multi emulator console for less than 100 vs a cart for 1 console only for over 100.

I disagree

The people buying Everdrives, Cuttle Carts, PowerPaks, and so on are the diehard classic gamers. Much of this segment will stick to original hardware since that's what they love, they already have the consoles, they're more durable than any cheap 21st century Asian clone will be, you're guaranteed of 100% accuracy, compatibility is guaranteed, and it's nostalgia. There will still be demand for multicarts for such hardware and multicarts will likely be much more versatile than any cheap clone that can load roms off flash memory ever will be.

As for the rest of what you posted, I'm very skeptical. If the US government had actually put the cabash to protecting copyrights for obsolete videogame software, that would be big news in the classic gaming world. I suspect the old adage about not being able to put the genie back in the bottle is why rom sites don't seem to be gone after with the vigor of earlier years.

[Ed Oscuro]

Hyperkin hasn't said anything and I doubt they will until it's released and people take a look inside. However, my guess is that the Retron5 will be essentially a computer that has cartridge support. There are several clues that lead me to this conclusion:
I agree it's likely to have either a really cheap x86 or more likely an ARM CPU inside.

720p video output. Analog RGB signals, even when converted into digital progressive scan, can produce a maximum 240p.
Analog signals can be interlaced or progressive; I don't know what you mean by "converting" here. Most televisions with support for 480p progressive signal used YPbPr (aka "component") video.
The PC VGA monitor is one example of a type of analog RGB connection which is usually much higher than 240p; I'm using this analog connection right now to type out this response - on a 1920x1200 monitor! (This is about as high as you'd want to go with analog RGB because the signal will eventually start to reach its bandwidth and clarity limits).

720p is an HD resolution that simply not possible with the original hardware of any of the systems supported.
I don't know what you mean by "simply not possible." You can get an (analog) 720p signal from an upscaler, and without modifying the system.

If you wanted an old-fashioned console to output 720p, it would be a relatively simple engineering task. You could either do it by converting the analog RGB signal (or whatever you have to work with, actually; nothing says you can't work from composite or S-Video) or you could do it (like somebody has recently been working on with the NES) by intercepting certain signals from "original" NES hardware (the CPU etc.), or redesigning the board slightly (same thing) so that instead of sending data to analog RGB encoding, you send the data to be encoded in a digital system. Nothing magical or unusual about it. Again, you can use an external upscaler or converter box to change signals to pretty much any format you need, depending on what you're starting with and what you're going to. It's just more elegant and probably much faster to do what I am sure the RetroN is doing, which is generating the data which will make up an image internally (whether by emulation or with some close-to-original hardware makes no difference, seriously) and then generating that as a digital image, rather than an analog one.

Savestates, button remapping, speed settings, audio interpolation, built in cheats, etc. These are all standard emulation options only a computer offers.
Again those are actually things that could be done without emulation. I've got controllers that can be remapped, I've got a cartridge-taking MSX computer with a CPU speed slider, we've all got Game Genies, and for the most likely of the features - savestates - it's actually not impossible to dump or intercept the state of a CPU. It's just not a feature that works very well (if at all) with the cheap CPUs found in these systems. Nothing theoretical says you couldn't design a new CPU that has it.

Future firmware updates. Firmware means an OS, means computer.
You don't need an OS to have firmware. Furthermore, the firmware could just be for tweaking peripheral functions or video output.

"Our aim is 100% compatibility". The only way to achieve that through clone hardware is through emulation, which means a computer.
Emulation is actually a good way to screw things up, and emulation is very rarely "cycle accurate" to the original hardware (MAME isn't, for example), and that will likely be needed to really get some SNES effects right. And if you look at the current builds of higan (formerly bsnes) you'll see that requires a lot more CPU horsepower than this thing is packing. Another approach (which is a kind of emulation) would be the use of a FPGA but that's even less likely to be successful, especially since the emulation community has focused on emulation software, rather than implementing things in FPGAs (and FPGA implementation details can and will differ significantly from device to device). And then there is another, much more obvious route you seem to deny is possible - using original components or close analogues (if you recall, the SNES CPU was intended in part to allow NES gameplay on the system, and the Genesis 3 also has some differences from the original Genesis which affect a very few games). Building a system with fully digital output, without tons of signals from different chips interfering with each other, and without terrible expense, doubtlessly ruled this approach out. But I don't see what on earth stops a clone manufacturer from reverse engineering the very few proprietary or protected things in most of these machines, and buying off-the-shelf components for most of the rest.

Anyway, the point of this post is to point out that technical ability and cost are what will certainly cause this to run an emulator (rather than even an FPGA). However there is, again, nothing which theoretically forbids it. It's induction based on what is probable, not deduction based on what is possible.

And what is possible is probably a lot nicer than this thing will end up being. However, it's already very expensive for people to have little batches of just small bare PCBs made, to populate with off-the-shelf components, to say nothing of trying to make new designs, especially if they require a CPU fabrication plant to make new stuff (very expensive) or have hybrid components. However it's certainly possible to do some of the stuff mentioned, like have a digital signal with some user-selectable memory sections displayed in the corners, or a built-in cheat engine to change data (just halt the CPU first, easy even on cheap CPUs), and to do some of the other things mentioned.

diehard classic gamers [...] already have the consoles, they're more durable than any cheap 21st century Asian clone will be, you're guaranteed of 100% accuracy, compatibility is guaranteed,
Well, not exactly - firstly, old things can die. Ever heard of caps? I myself don't have a soldering iron; I have to ship a few things out soon to get them fixed. And other, more troublesome things can and do go wrong - RAMs often go bad. Batteries leak acid and destroy PCBs and other components. Components get fried by power surges. Even getting that "classic look" takes a classic tube TV, I find, and good ones are dying all the time, and not being replaced. The old consoles often can't physically connect to a modern TV without a fair amount of technological wizardry connecting components.

100% accuracy and compatibility - well, the Genesis 3 isn't 100% compatible with the Genesis game library. (It is a better system than I used to think though, and the broken games don't really matter.) Accuracy could even go bad if an oscillator goes nuts or some other component fades in an unusual way. The CPU and other burned-on components (like mask ROMs, not always used in cartridges though) should last and perform accurately a very long time, but they do rely on a bunch of other unusual stuff to make the system go.

We're in a situation where there is a constant attrition of older, original consoles. Really, I think the only thing that will save some of these libraries will be the eventual release of a console clone, either by the original manufacturer or a third party, with modern-day output features (likely to remain digital signals for the foreseeable future). Other than that, I don't know, I guess I sound like a survivalist now - stock those systems while you still can!

[Leo_A]

I don't know what you mean by "simply not possible." You can get an (analog) 720p signal from an upscaler, and without modifying the system.

Obviously he's talking about what the signal the console's video circuit is putting out. Not what you can do to it after the fact with things like scalers which I'm sure he's quite aware of.


Well, not exactly - firstly, old things can die. Ever heard of caps? I myself don't have a soldering iron; I have to ship a few things out soon to get them fixed. And other, more troublesome things can and do go wrong - RAMs often go bad. Batteries leak acid and destroy PCBs and other components. Components get fried by power surges. Even getting that "classic look" takes a classic tube TV, I find, and good ones are dying all the time, and not being replaced. The old consoles often can't physically connect to a modern TV without a fair amount of technological wizardry connecting components.

Old things of course die. But when it does happen, old things are often the best candidates to actually maintain and repair compared to something like a NOAC since they tended to be built to a very high level of quality. Particularly in the pre CD drive age. Look at all the heavy sixers from the 1970's that are still ticking in the Atari community today just fine today. These clone systems aren't built with the same mentality.

In general, I put my money on the best of the Sunnyvale class of 1977 outliving the best of 2013 from whatever little factory in China that Hyperkin has hired to assemble and build these. People have been saying what you said for many years yet the best of the past is still outliving most of the present and future like Xbox 360's, Playstation 3's, cheap Asian clones of classic consoles, and so on.


100% accuracy and compatibility - well, the Genesis 3 isn't 100% compatible with the Genesis game library. (It is a better system than I used to think though, and the broken games don't really matter.)

If we're going to nitpick (I think the total of incompatible Genesis games is two on the Genesis 3), then most consoles lack perfect compatibility with their own library of software. Wasn't there a earlier Genesis revision that refused to play things like EA releases? Most any system that has had revisions has either had a few games that don't work in a later run of the console or vice versa, sometimes intentionally broken and sometimes not. Atari 2600, Intellivision, Playstation 2, etc. Didn't even a small run of earlier Xbox 360's have issues reading new game disc when Microsoft expanded the writable portion of a DVD area for game software a few years back?

[Ed Oscuro]

Obviously he's talking about what the signal the console's video circuit is putting out. Not what you can do to it after the fact with things like scalers which I'm sure he's quite aware of.
It's still nonsense because when we are talking about a "clone" or remake of a console, the only limit to the design putting out analog RGB or a digital signal is how the video has been generated and encoded. You can either encode (as an upscaler does) source analog RGB into a digital signal, or you can work with the digital data internally generated by the CPU and other components to create a digital signal. Creating a good replacement for any analog components (which create a good portion of a system's sound) would be challenging, but might not be a big deal depending on how the sound CPUs work (i.e. if they have a DAC internally or externally - I know on many of these older systems the DAC is a separate chip, which means you might not need to deal with analog components in that area at all). Another example of analog and digital confusion is the NES colorburst generator. Does it need to be done the way the NES does it? By no means.

Old things of course die. But when it does happen, old things are often the best candidates to actually maintain and repair compared to something like a NOAC. But old game consoles tended to be built to a very high level of quality. Particularly in the pre CD drive age. Look at all the heavy sixers from the 1970's that are still ticking in the Atari community today just fine today. These clone systems aren't built with the same mentality.


In general, I put my money on the best of the Sunnyvale class of 1977 outliving the best of 2013 from whatever little factory in China that Hyperkin has hired to assemble and build these.
When I took my Atari VCS controller out of a closet a few years ago - which had only been very lightly used and never by me, and was sold by a reputable member here - one of the joysticks was so brittle that just light handling caused a part to break off. '90s consoles? Filled with tons of cheap crap, like the capacitors. So yeah, we're gonna need new stuff man. But delude yourself as much as you like, it's probably future hardware sales for me.


If we're going to nitpick (I think the total of incompatible Genesis games is two on the Genesis 3), then most consoles lack perfect compatibility with their own library of software. Wasn't there a earlier Genesis revision that refused to play things like EA releases? Most any system that has had revisions has either had a few games that don't work in a later run of the console or vice versa, sometimes intentionally broken and sometimes not. Atari 2600, Intellivision, Playstation 2, etc. Didn't even a small run of earlier Xbox 360's have issues reading new game disc when Microsoft expanded the writable portion of a DVD area for game software a few years back?
If even original systems aren't internally compatible, it makes that "guarantee of compatibility" claim seem rather windy, doesn't it?

I'm appalled by the lack of imagination here. I'm not saying - and I don't accept, as I am sure you don't - that a new console entirely is the likely answer. But it's a fact that over time many components - including some rather expensive ones (i.e. certain parts of laser assemblies in CD-ROM systems) are going to need to be replaced, at a minimum. And most people don't have the skills to troubleshoot even a blown fuse, let alone replacement of surface mount CPUs with thin traces. And the more you have to fix these things, the more it's likely there will be a cascade of little faults and problems introduced with the fixes that may eventually render them unserviceable.

For now many of the components that are likely to fail in these old systems are mass-produced, especially the capacitors but also many families of logic chips (like the TI 7400 series) are still in good supply. But apart from the magic of "this was made years ago and still works," there's nothing that a reissue of old hardware couldn't accomplish. It might even have better functionality than the original - just look around at the hardware modding guides and you realize the horrible shortcuts and problems that arose in many old systems, and a new release that either went with more up-to-date components (one reason the Genesis 3 is neat is that it uses a much newer and better Sony RGB encoder) or ditched some of the more or less totally deprecated features in favor of new ones.

Not everybody is super concerned about it, or can/does play at a level where they would notice it or want to be concerned about it, but reportedly you get a frame of lag (at least) even in game-oriented upscalers, and pretty soon those will be one of the few ways to even work with the output from many old consoles (unless you have a stockpile of TVs and get lucky and have none break on you while sitting around, which can also happen). This is one of the completely obvious areas in which a really rather moderate reworking (some people are doing it with just minor surgery to old consoles, of course) of display output would help keep old consoles alive.

As a final thought, back to the NES - there are a lot of folks still looking for those NES arcade RGB PPUs, even with their horrific problems they represent an upgrade to many people. If (and perhaps, given the relative simplicity of the NES, this might actually be an issue of "when") there is a replacement for that component, that will be actually a great service to many very seriously-minded, accuracy and nostalgia-oriented classic gamers. I don't know what we gain by sitting around and going "welp, (I don't think) it doesn't affect me, therefore it's useless" like that's an amazing service to the world.
https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcR6vyOZ06qvB9-P9lYNOzfaV3EcDSZnVAXbXNrCquqgGq5FoFwdig

[Leo_A]

For starters, there's zero need to defend clones. My interest is clearly there and they're a nice thing to have and I'm looking forward to advancements like this one possibly has to offer. So why you're leaping to their defense, I don't know. I wasn't out attacking them in the first place.

I simply pointed out the obvious. The ability to load roms from a memory source, if it happens here, is hardly going to kill the sales of things like Harmony cartridges. People aren't lining up at the door to throw away their original hardware. So there's no need to hope that this lacks that feature out of some mistaken thought that it will protect the homebrew manufacturers that design and build those devices.



When I took my Atari VCS controller out of a closet a few years ago - which had only been very lightly used and never by me, and was sold by a reputable member here - one of the joysticks was so brittle that just light handling caused a part to break off. '90s consoles? Filled with tons of cheap crap, like the capacitors. So yeah, we're gonna need new stuff man. But delude yourself as much as you like, it's probably future hardware sales for me.

My classic consoles all say otherwise. And when things do fail like capacitors, they're replacable. And I've never had a Atari 2600 joystick become brittle and can log right into Best Electronics website and order everything I need to rebuild one into brand new condition when I need to.

I'm not worried. I'm sure I'd see it differently if I had an interest in selling these, but I'm just a classic gamer. I'll worry when I have issues and if all this stuff is going to be as failure prone as you think it is, I may as well go to PC emulation if it did happen because the games and quality original accessories will also be dying en masse if we subscribe to your scenario.

There won't be anything left to play.



If even original systems aren't internally compatible, it makes that "guarantee of compatibility" claim seem rather windy, doesn't it?

If you actually do some reading, you will see that the goal is 100% compatibility. That's a fine goal to strive for even though I'm sure they won't reach it. And I'd be disappointed in anything less than aiming for that mark.

But you're twisting it around as if it's some sort of promise here when it isn't.

[Ed Oscuro]

If you actually do some reading, you will see that the goal is 100% compatibility.
Ahh, the last gasp of petulance, accusing the other person of not reading because they didn't take your attempt to redefine a conversation they were having with another person in the way you wanted. Keep it classy! But since you went there, let me just point out that I don't know how in blazes you go from reading me saying "here are expensive ways the RetroN COULD be close to 100% accurate, and here are the cheap ways it will likely employ and not be anywhere close to 100% accurate" (if you ignore that part where I talk about differences between accurate emulation of just the CPU, and accurate emulation of the system's 'look and feel' which goes beyond simple "accuracy," of course), to believeing I wrote "the RetroN has a chance at being 100% compatible or accurate!" If your point is to say that it's not a great sin for RetroN 5's makers to promise to aim for something they can't reach - 100% accuracy - I also think it's not a great sin to point out that it is, in fact, an unrealistic target, and might (i.e. surely will) mislead buyers. I know that every time some lazy clone manufacturer drops by and promises the clone to rule them all, my ears perk up because I think, for a brief moment, that somebody who is not just looking to pawn off another cheaply made and underperforming semi-clone will actually give us a viable source of new parts.

I apologize for writing a too-long post earlier, but when you decided to butt in with your misinformed view of what I had written, I think you needed to read this:

Anyway, the point of this post is to point out that technical ability and cost are what will certainly cause this to run an emulator (rather than even an FPGA). However there is, again, nothing which theoretically forbids it.
Likewise, technical ability and cost are what forbid the use of other approaches that would allow greater compatibility.

Their goal is truly not "100% compatibility" because that is all but ruled out by their cheap approach. Their real goal is "as close to 100% accuracy as possible with the cheap generic hardware we'll be using, and also we'll try to throw in some other features not provided by the original hardware to hopefully sway those on the fence." I don't see why there's a bunch of fuss over simply stating that the claim of seeking 100% compatibility (which would entail close to 100% accuracy to run the SNES library, by the way; it takes byuu 3GHz at least to actually make some SNES games full-featured or even just playable from start to finish (http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2011/08/accuracy-takes-power-one-mans-3ghz-quest-to-build-a-perfect-snes-emulator/), but RetroN probably is using a cheap and relatively underpowered ARM CPU which will leave out many important features of the SNES).

There's also another point here which seems somewhat important: I don't know where you get the idea I'm defending clones in every shape and form, especially after I pointed out so many ways clones can hurt the gaming experience. I think the RetroN 5 is unlikely to be a great advance or a great value (which should be obvious, again, from what I've been saying wrote about problems with various clone approaches, i.e. on-CPU emulation, FPGA reimplementation of hardware, or inexact use of almost-similar components, which is what the classic clones used to better effect than, say, NOAC Famiclones used). I specifically mentioned reissues of hardware from the original manufacturers. However, I do think it's also reasonable to say that there are many things that could be improved short of a full hardware replacement. I don't think you're saying "there's no need for replacement parts or systems" is basically admitting that you don't know what the retro gaming community wants, so this is just an argument from ignorance.

Whether or not that push targets you, or whether or not you have had great success and a bit of luck with keeping your old hardware alive (which I hope holds for you!) is really besides the point. This isn't about just you. The fact remains that these systems are becoming too scarce to service the demand of the retrogaming community, expensive to maintain, and their numbers are dropping. On top of that, there are some problems with many of the original systems that could be addressed. And I find it pretty funny how you state that at the slightest difficulty with hardware beyond capacitors, you'll drop it entirely for emulation. Kind of proves my point, doesn't it? Well, I just hope that by the time that happens that we'll all be using emulators using a model like byuu's excellent SNES emulator.

[Ed Oscuro]

I just realized that could be boiled down in a much simpler way: Satoshi said that only emulation gives 100% compatibility (or accuracy, I think they are pretty much interchangeable terms actually), which is wrong. I pointed out other ways it could be done. Then Leo, with an emphasis on cost (natural, but not the point of my post) keeps referring to NOACs and "cheap Chinese clones," which again I don't see how you reasonably see as what I'm referring to as viable replacements for systems or broken components. I hope that clears things up.

[Leo_A]

Ahh, the last gasp of petulance, accusing the other person of not reading because they didn't take your attempt to redefine a conversation they were having with another person in the way you wanted. Keep it classy!

Incredible


But since you went there, let me just point out that I don't know how in blazes you go from reading me saying "here are expensive ways the RetroN COULD be close to 100% accurate, and here are the cheap ways it will likely employ and not be anywhere close to 100% accurate" (if you ignore that part where I talk about differences between accurate emulation of just the CPU, and accurate emulation of the system's 'look and feel' which goes beyond simple "accuracy," of course), to believeing I wrote "the RetroN has a chance at being 100% compatible or accurate!" If your point is to say that it's not a great sin for RetroN 5's makers to promise to aim for something they can't reach - 100% accuracy - I also think it's not a great sin to point out that it is, in fact, an unrealistic target, and might (i.e. surely will) mislead buyers.

First of all, you hardly have to state the obvious. Nobody around here expects 100% compatibility. So there's little reason to be so long winded unless you just like typing. We don't need you jumping in and "educating" us.

Secondly, you stated "if even original systems aren't internally compatible, it makes that "guarantee of compatibility" claim seem rather windy, doesn't it?"

To me, I interpreted that as criticism of Hyperkin that they ever even suggested that maximum compatibility was their goal here.


I apologize for writing a too-long post earlier, but when you decided to butt in with your misinformed view of what I had written, I think you needed to read this...

I butted in at a discussion board open to the public? Take it private then next time, don't include quotes from a person you don't want replying to you, and start reading other people's postings for a change before going off half cocked for 5,000 words.


Their real goal is "as close to 100% accuracy as possible with the cheap generic hardware we'll be using.

You don't say.


I don't see why there's a bunch of fuss over simply stating that the claim of seeking 100% compatibility (which would entail close to 100% accuracy to run the SNES library, by the way; it takes byuu 3GHz at least to actually make some SNES games full-featured or even just playable from start to finish (http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2011/08/accuracy-takes-power-one-mans-3ghz-quest-to-build-a-perfect-snes-emulator/), but RetroN probably is using a cheap and relatively underpowered ARM CPU which will leave out many important features of the SNES).

People are well aware of that. Heck, I even made reference to it several pages back and obviously was referencing the same emulator you had in mind since things like ZSNES are hardly taxing on any PC hardware from the 2000's. And that was well before you ever jumped in...


There's also another point here which seems somewhat important: I don't know where you get the idea I'm defending clones in every shape and form, especially after I pointed out so many ways clones can hurt the gaming experience.

I never suggested that you were defending every clone. But I just assumed when you started to write a term paper in response to my statement that there will always be a place for original hardware among a segment of this community, that you apparently felt the need to leap to the defense of things like the Retron5.

I have nothing against the Retron5. Quite the opposite if you actually finally tried reading this thread for a change.


Whether or not that push targets you, or whether or not you have had great success and a bit of luck with keeping your old hardware alive (which I hope holds for you!) is really besides the point. This isn't about just you. The fact remains that these systems are becoming too scarce to service the demand of the retrogaming community, expensive to maintain, and their numbers are dropping.

And I very much doubt that you will ever have any success with that claim around here.

[Ace]

*removed*

I had posted something in response to something Leo said, but misread what was written. Please delete this post.

[Ed Oscuro]

Okay, I think I'd better go out there and make a serious effort to de-escalate the situation. I think I'm within my rights to say I don't admire how you've approached this discussion, at least at certain points, but I certainly don't want to go around needlessly insulting you, either. Sorry for the unwarrantedly harsh words.

I butted in at a discussion board open to the public? Take it private then next time, don't include quotes from a person you don't want replying to you, and start reading other people's postings for a change before going off half cocked for 5,000 words.
I think it was no problem for me to respond to your potentially confusing comment (post #134) about video output, which might lead somebody to think Satoshi Matrix's statement about 720p wasn't utterly riddled with inaccuracies (which it still is), or your focus on (that particular implementation we know from certain *modern* cheap clones, but not the only possible kind of*) NOACs versus original systems, when I had clearly said it was preferable to do things with original-type hardware (i.e. not FPGA, not emulation running on a cheap ARM CPU - does that look familiar?) - yes, all these strange things you've been talking about have thrown me for a loop, because your misreading of my comments have caused a bunch of other problems in this discussion to trickle down. And, finally, the 100% compatibility within a system issue - I admit being pedantic here, but I don't see why it would hurt to say "well gee, yeah" and let's move on, as a comment between fellow forumers, but that leads me to another issue:

To me, I intepreted that as criticism of Hyperkin that they ever even suggested that maximum compatibility was their goal here.
If they're not paying you, why is actually expecting that they live up to their promises a bad thing? I was originally interested in the RetroN because of comments to the tune of "100% compatibility." It is quite possible to make a completely accurate system, without emulation, but nobody's doing it. I'm not some trained dog that is conditioned to believe that it's OK to carelessly throw around terms like "100% compatibility" when it almost certainly won't be 100% compatible (and by compatible I don't mean "you can play a game with faults for a while," I mean it actually plays the game the right way), and I don't think anybody should accept that state of affairs.

Judging from your comments, which question my "defense" of this or my taking to task of that, it seems like you had no respect for my points to begin with, questioning whether they were useful, and now you've almost managed to bury them. I hope you can understand why I do not appreciate this. Let's please not do that.

* Many old Famiclones are still rolling along. Many old arcade bootlegs out of those Hong Kong factories you despise are still going strong, too (http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?p=390158#p390158), but in many cases it takes work to keep things going. I must stick to my guns about system availability and attrition - do I predict that it will hit you pocketbook at a certain date? No. But I don't think we should just say "it's perfectly okay not to have a plan for the future for replacing at least important components of systems in the case they fail." And I also don't think that it's a big problem to have good supply of completely compatible systems, be they well-made clones (unheard of in recent releases, of course) or reissues from the original manufacturer. Anyway, I would like it very much if we could agree that eventually - perhaps, and hopefully, at a point in time not relevant to our projected lifespans - there will be a very severe shortage of these systems. Yes, at the moment, to many people who see that Genesis and NES units are currently quite cheap still, it doesn't seem like there is much of a problem. But then again console prices seem to be steadily growing on many of these systems - and of course it can also be a crapshoot getting a system that's acceptable, especially if you have very high standards for what gameplay should look and sound like. Nothing lasts forever, as the Book of Job says (http://bible.cc/job/27-16.htm). In any case I am actually rather lost as to how this became so contentious. Wouldn't it be a good thing to be able to grow the number of people who can enjoy classic systems, rather than see it shrink while eBay profiteers exploit the situation?

[Leo_A]

Okay, I think I'd better go out there and make a serious effort to de-escalate the situation. I think I'm within my rights to say I don't admire how you've approached this discussion, at least at certain points, but I certainly don't want to go around needlessly insulting you, either. Sorry for the unwarrantedly harsh words.


You have some nerve when you fired the first salvo...

[buzz_n64]

Man, clone consoles bring out the worst in some of us.

Everyone needs to kiss and make up, and Myturntoplay needs to apologize specifically for lying. All will be okay.

[Satoshi_Matrix]

I just realized that could be boiled down in a much simpler way: Satoshi said that only emulation gives 100% compatibility (or accuracy, I think they are pretty much interchangeable terms actually), which is wrong.

Ed, you're creating a VERY nitpicky argument. I'm not going to justify spending the time to reply to all your nitpicks from my other post, since you summed up your thoughts right there.

So let me restate my thoughts:

The features that Hyperkin is telling us that the Retron5 will have - savestates, button remappings, 720p HDMI, 100% accuracy, firmware updates and so on - you are correct in saying that these can be done without emulation. However, my point is that it is far, FAR more likely Hyperkin will choose emulation to achieve all of this.

Regarding my statement about 100% compatibility only being possible through emulation, again you are correct in saying that it can be done through other means. I was comparatively talking about them using the on-a-chip designs common in today's clones. Yes, it is possible for a 100% compatible NOAC for example. But that would require a lot of R&D, something clone makers aren't high on. Since source code for many high quality emulators is readily available, far less work would need to be done to get the Retron5 running an NES emulator that's 100% compatible than a NOAC that does the same job.

To me, there's no need to raise false hope with the Retorn5 with any speculation beyond what Hyperkin has already announced. The problem is that people feel entitled and are too opinionated about everything. The simple fact is that whatever Hyperkin does someone's going to complain. It'll be too ugly looking, won't come in the right colors, will or won't be emulation based, may or may not play ROMs, the controller design won't make everyone happy, and so on.

When the Retorn5 gets released, I will give it an honest assessment and test it to the full extent of my game collection. Do I envision encountering issues? Of course. To think otherwise is naive. But on the other hand, I think as a community, we need to step back and realize that Hyperkin doesn't need to do anything even close to this. They could release another clone on the same level of the Retorn3 and call it a day.

For all of it's promise, the Retron5 represents a major leap forward not only for clones, but the retro gaming as a whole. The goal for it to run 100% of all games for the FC/NES/SNES/MD/GB/GBC/GBA - literally thousands and thousands of games - is an almost unfathomable challenge. The hurtles facing it are so immense I have to tip my hat to Hyperkin for even trying. Meanwhile, all we're doing is criticizing what might be Hyperkin's plan for the Retorn5. I think critical analysis of the system should wait until either Hyperkin reveals more about it, or when it's actually released. Speculation is only so useful.

[OldSchoolGamer]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b2OOKsMTzME

[Satoshi_Matrix]

Thanks for posting that, but it's a little disappointing that nothing new was revealed that wasn't mentioned during their initial conference. I guess that's to be expected though.

[Frankie_Says_Relax]

WOW! From the videos and photos it looks like this thing is pretty much ready to go!

I should have some interesting news to share with you on this subject in the near future. Stay tuned.

[Frankie_Says_Relax]

I do not mean to hijack this thread...but it's come to my attention that several members are asking for my head. I must respectfully disagree with this. If I have been passionate in my views it is only because I am tendentious by nature, sententious by practice, and emotional due to circumstance. The circumstance naturally being the current discourse, namely, clone hardware and it's affiliates. I realize my approach has not been the most civilized. However, I must point out that I have never once attacked, slandered, or besmirched anyone on this forum. I have spoken only in generalities...generalities it seems which some members have misguidedly taken as personal affronts.

Be that as it may, I offer my apologies, and resolve, heretofore, to try my best to conduct myself in a manner more appropriate. This forum is populated with excellent noteworthy men, and I hope your forgiving hearts will be yet another indicator of such qualities.

Sincerely,
MyTurnToPlay

thank you.

As a point of fact, you lied to everybody about having preview hardware from Hyperkin and you specifically called everybody in this thread "zombie lemmings" and "idiots".

You're on very shaky ground and VERY thin ice.

Apologies aside, you've had your final warnings. If you enjoy being able to participate in discussions on Digital Press, I'd stay out of the clone hardware threads in the future.

http://www.digitpress.com/forum/showthread.php?166619-RetroN-4-is-officially-a-thing-apparently&p=1958842&viewfull=1#post1958842


This piece of crap is still being discussed? I thought my advance preview was sufficient warning. I've looked at the data. I've analyzed the results, and this thing is complete junk. But I guess all you zombie lemmings are dead set on throwing your money away on Hyperscam's chinese trash products.

I'm always amazed at the idiots out there. When some bullsh*t self declared gaming expert hypes up a predictably retarded new product...then all his no life loyal followers jump on his nuts and waste their money on a stupid ass product. Well...go ahead and throw your money away you lemmings.

thank you.

[dendawg]

http://cdn04.cdnwp.thefrisky.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/25/330x182px-LL-7dc6c095_micheal-jackson-eating-popcorn-theater-gif.gif

[Satoshi_Matrix]

WOW! From the videos and photos it looks like this thing is pretty much ready to go!

...Actually no, not really. Everything Hyperkin showed was from a single beta prototype. I suspect the Retorn5 is far from being finalized. They haven't even announced a price or release date. Just vaguely that they'll announce something this summer. I suspect the actual console won't roll out until the first quarter of next year. I'd love to be proven wrong as I want to get my hands on and thoroughly test the Retorn5 as soon as possible.


As for MyTurnToPlay, I think we're all being more lenient than he deserves. His apology is rather empty and he's made no apology for LYING nor vowed not to in the future. I wonder if he'll reply again, now that his hand has been caught in the cookie jar by everyone one too many times. All I want from him is an apology for making shit up. As I said before, its one thing to discuss one's concerns about future clones, but it's something completely different to claim he has one of these systems already and therefore can make educated statements about it, and then name calling others for not following his agenda.