RetroN 5 is officially a thing, apparently

[JSoup]

I keep seeing nice things about it, just wish it had a date. I know theyre trying to qc it the best but its getting old waiting.

Fellow I talked to at the booth said that they are aiming for a Q1 release this year. Which basically means any day now.

[treismac]

All economic viability be damned, I'd wait until Christmas 2014 if it meant being able to play my Atari 2600 and Turbografx-16 games on it. :D

[JSoup]

Catching up with the thread a bit....


2600 support is something Hyperkin could have easily done, but probably didn't happen solely due to the market percentage who would be interested in it whatsoever.

I was curious as to if the Retron5 could play Atari games as well and asked the same fellow I mentioned in my previous post about it. He said they couldn't build functionality into the hardware for pre-crash systems due to legal issues with the various rights holders. That struck me as odd, as this is basically claiming that Atari is more litigious than Nintendo which just doesn't seem possible.

[treismac]

I was curious as to if the Retron5 could play Atari games as well and asked the same fellow I mentioned in my previous post about it. He said they couldn't build functionality into the hardware for pre-crash systems due to legal issues with the various rights holders. That struck me as odd, as this is basically claiming that Atari is more litigious than Nintendo which just doesn't seem possible.

Eh. Sounds like a bs blowoff answer to me, but who knows.

[Leo_A]

That's nonsense, you could legally build a 2600 clone back in the day and all related patents have long since expired. Other classic systems like the Intellivision and Colecovision though with a bios wouldn't seem legally possible without permission since copyrights from this era remain valid.


All economic viability be damned, I'd wait until Christmas 2014 if it meant being able to play my Atari 2600 and Turbografx-16 games on it. :D

They both have enough popularity, but I don't think that there's enough overlap with the Atari 2600 community among those that they're aiming this at in order for 2600 compatibility to happen.

They've all but priced themselves out of the casual purchase so people at communities like this will instead represent most of their sales (Dedicated classic gamers that are buying this specifically to play original cartridges with original accessories on their living room HDTV).

And while many dedicated 2600 fans enjoy newer consoles, a lot of the people that love the 8/16 era that they're aiming this towards don't necessarily have much of an interest (Unfortunately) in late 70's/early 80's gaming. So I doubt the numbers would work to justify the inclusion of the 2600 (I would much more expect to see them leverage this base with something specifically aimed at that segment instead).

I could see TG16/PC Engine support though in a future revision (And perhaps Game Gear or internalizing SMS support). A lot of active 8/16 bit classic gamers already love or are at least intrigued by that platform. I think it has the critical mass and most of all, gamer interests overlaps enough with the areas they're already covering.

[Tanooki]

Well Q1 is now->3/31 so who knows. Hopefully sooner than later as I want to see some hard reviews of the hardware and its features as I'd love to have one due to some of the perks of the systems it claims to have, but only if it's as rock solid as they claim with legit games.

I could see not having pre-crash systems for various reasons, but the one that gets me that's not in there is the TG16. I get not having the CD addon as that's just too much junk to handle and it does have a system card for that too, though it can be easily reverse engineered (like Magic Engine did many years ago on PC.) I think HuCards would have been a real boost to the system as it did have some really fine gaming moments on a few of them (had a Duo long ago) though I did prefer many CDs as well.

I think if this supposedly worked as well as advertised I'd probably hang up my pristine SNES system back into the box, and my modded top loader too, but this is all a huge IF. I do know I'd be greatly interested in buying up a good top10 or so of my favorite old Genesis games and there's some Famicom stuff I've always wanted to have too.

[JSoup]

So, for the hell of it, I got a couple photos of the Retron5 in action today. Pardon the crappy quality, I'm not accustomed to photographing an actively moving screen.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v250/jelly_soup/100_0637_zpsbd1f8938.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v250/jelly_soup/100_0638_zps4e962c8c.jpg

I realize now I should have just gotten an image of the just the machine itself and will probably do that tomorrow.

[Mr Mort]

Interesting. May I ask where these pics were taken?

[Satoshi_Matrix]

I was curious as to if the Retron5 could play Atari games as well and asked the same fellow I mentioned in my previous post about it. He said they couldn't build functionality into the hardware for pre-crash systems due to legal issues with the various rights holders. That struck me as odd, as this is basically claiming that Atari is more litigious than Nintendo which just doesn't seem possible.

That's complete bullshit. Just look atht he Coleco Gemini - which came out in 1983 or so. That was a complete hardware clone of the 2600 and when the 2600 was still alive. It was deemed legal because none of the parts used violated design patents, and were off-the-shelf parts. Now all these years later, the 2600 patents have long since expired and as long as Hyperkin doesn't include any built in games, theres nothing anyone could legally do about 2600 support.

A far, far more likely scenario is that they simply don't want to invest in the costs due to low user demand. I'd love 2600 support just as much as the next guy here, but we gotta face it, we're in the minority. The average joe who would buy this probably doesn't have a 2600 collection.

It's the same with the TG-16. It isn't that Hyperkin couldn't do it, it's that its not worth their while, plug TG-16 games have all that region coding crap to deal with the even the pure android emulators struggle with in pure software.



Well Q1 is now->3/31 so who knows.

Source? March 31st sounds.....tentative. Like, far enough away so we'll stop bitching that there is no release date, yet not so far away as to make us scream vaporware.



Interesting. May I ask where these pics were taken?

Me too. I'd like to know more details about this.

[TheChristoph]

I'd like to see the controller, and possibly hear impressions if possible. It seems like it's in the shot; the white object near the bottom of the table. I zoomed in on the photo and it seems like it's very oddly shaped.

[Tanooki]

I have no source, someone else here said it and I just pointed out q1 goes through March. I'd love a real date, but I think they'll just keep delaying it until they fix whatever the problem is this time or hope people forget and drop the whole thing.

[dgdgagdae]

Source? March 31st sounds.....tentative. Like, far enough away so we'll stop bitching that there is no release date, yet not so far away as to make us scream vaporware. .

He wasn't saying it would be released on March 31st, just that Q1 is from January 1 - March 31. As for a source:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calendar_year

[JSoup]

Interesting. May I ask where these pics were taken?

SacAnime 2014 Winter Show
http://www.sacconventions.com/

[Satoshi_Matrix]

As for the controller, here's the best shot of it thus far:

http://technabob.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/retron4_controller.jpg

other shots are merely 3D mockups.

Here's what we do know about it:

This has two shoulder buttons not shown in that pic.
It's a standard bluetooth controller. It's possible the Ouya controller and many other bluetooth controllers will work with the Retron5, but that's speculation.
It will have a rechargable battery, not take AA's or something.
Button configurations are fully remappable for all emulators. You'll be able to map whatever control to whatever button on that.
You will be able to forsake the wireless controller entirely and use OEM or third party controllers for the original consoles should you so wish.


I've said so before, and I'll say it again: I am going to reserve judgement until I actually have the thing in my hands and use it. It could be crap, it could be incredible. I will refuse to judge it based solely on images.

The thumbstick could be a clickstick like the NeoGeo CD-Z or NeoGeo Pocket. If so, that's the best thing Hyperkin could have done, rather than come up with some dpad that doesn't infringe on Nintendo's, Sony's, or Microsoft's dpad designs. Copying the overall design of SNK (a company that doesn't exist anymore, at least not in the way we think of SNK) was a smart move and I fully support Hyperkin for doing so. But again, without actually using it, there's no way of telling how good or bad it is.

As for the release date, I don't expect to see it some out "any day now". If that were the case, Hyperkin wouldn't be keeping so quiet about it.

If i had to predict, I'd say the true release will probably be late spring or early summer. It won't be in a couple days or weeks.

[treismac]

http://technabob.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/retron4_controller.jpg


Hmmmm... I can't even begin to imagine how that would feel in my hands. Here's hoping it rocks. If that's the case, and the system comes with two of them, the RetroN 5 might well be a complete no-brainer of a purchase.

[Satoshi_Matrix]

Hmmmm... I can't even begin to imagine how that would feel in my hands. Here's hoping it rocks. If that's the case, and the system comes with two of them, the RetroN 5 might well be a complete no-brainer of a purchase.

Given the complexity and costs involved with bluetooh controllers, it's highly improbable the RetroN5 will come with two of them. What will happen is that Hyperkin will package one in the for $99, and if you want another, they will sell for $49 (or more)

That's the way the Ouya does it, and Hyperkin is an even smaller company even more unable to take the kind of financial hit packaging two of these controllers with the system for $99 would be.

Think about that. It just won't happen.

All that said, do keep in mind that Hyperkin has stated the RetroN5 will be fully compatible with preexisting controllers that will be mappable for any system. For example, with an OEM SNES controller, you'll be able to use it to play all five system, even Genesis if you so choose. As a direct result, it becomes trivial if the bluetooth controller will be awful. Of course, I hope it won't be, as I like the concept of using a well designed wireless controller.

[Tanooki]

It would be impressive even as screwy as the molding looks if the thing was a great piece of work that you really would want to use. With it being bluetooth you could carry it over to other items as a nice controller potentially as well if another device will pick it up. It could show up on tablets, computers, etc which would be nice if a game could support it by just asking for a bluetooth controller being there.

[StoneAgeGamer]

From what I have head the controller is actually really nice and d-pad is much like the neo geo d-pads. I believe they use micro switches, from videos a saw are very clicky. I am suppose to be beta testing the R5 as a retailer. I haven't gotten my beta unit yet. Unfortunately there is probably not much I will be able to comment on since I had to sign an NDA.

[Satoshi_Matrix]

That makes me pleased. If it is a clickstick like the NeoGeos then it has a high chance of not being garbage.


Would that NDA prevent you from telling us basic info about the system? For example, I'd like to know what's all in the box (will they make you buy your own HDMI cable?) the exact power supply rating (so I can futureproof by having another compatible power supply should I decide to move the system from room to room without having to go behind the mess of wires to disconnect the power supply every single time) and general info like....when the heck we can expect this to be released instead of vaguely "sometime early 2014"?

[StoneAgeGamer]

That makes me pleased. If it is a clickstick like the NeoGeos then it has a high chance of not being garbage.


Would that NDA prevent you from telling us basic info about the system? For example, I'd like to know what's all in the box (will they make you buy your own HDMI cable?) the exact power supply rating (so I can futureproof by having another compatible power supply should I decide to move the system from room to room without having to go behind the mess of wires to disconnect the power supply every single time) and general info like....when the heck we can expect this to be released instead of vaguely "sometime early 2014"?

I know as much as you do on release date. They told me first quarter 2014. We took pre-orders and this is exactly why I hate taking pre-orders on this stuff because this always happens, but it feels like you have to to keep up with the Jones.

As for NDA I plan on asking what I can and can't divulge once I get it, but my guess is that they won't allow much unless that aspect was truly final. Even stuff it includes may not be final.

[Leo_A]

I hope it's nice. If they hit a home run with this and it's actually a good alternative to enjoy these games on a modern HDTV, it would be a shame to be all but limited to wired controllers.



The thumbstick could be a clickstick like the NeoGeo CD-Z or NeoGeo Pocket. If so, that's the best thing Hyperkin could have done, rather than come up with some dpad that doesn't infringe on Nintendo's, Sony's, or Microsoft's dpad designs.

They could've just directly copied the d-pad on the NES. That's what I'd of preferred and those patents are all expired.



It's the same with the TG-16. It isn't that Hyperkin couldn't do it, it's that its not worth their while, plug TG-16 games have all that region coding crap to deal with the even the pure android emulators struggle with in pure software.


I disagree

It very well might not be financially practical to pursue, but I don't think it's from a lack of gamer interest. Among those willing to spend over $100 on a device to improve their 8/16 bit Sega/Nintendo gaming experience in 2013, I think you'd find a healthy percentage of those individuals with some interest in the NEC platform from that time.

Plus, aren't they also selling these in Japan where that system was a much larger success? Much like how I bet the North American market wasn't the driving force behind them making revisions to accommodate Master System gaming (I would imagine Europe is more to thank for that), that's something that it has in its favor.

[Gameguy]

It very well might not be financially practical to pursue, but I don't think it's from a lack of gamer interest. Among those willing to spend over $100 on a device to improve their 8/16 bit Sega/Nintendo gaming experience in 2013, I think you'd find a healthy percentage of those individuals with some interest in the NEC platform from that time.
I agree with this, I do think there's plenty of demand for Turbografx clones. It probably would cost more to manufacture which is why it isn't done. If any company made a clone Turbo Duo system I'm sure it would get major interest, since these are so expensive and seem to self destruct with age.

Instead we keep getting NES, SNES, and Genesis clones. Hardware that's still easy and cheap enough to find almost anywhere.

[treismac]

... we keep getting NES, SNES, and Genesis clones. Hardware that's still easy and cheap enough to find almost anywhere.

I wonder what kind of market there is for the Genesis these days anyway, as I never see the system selling for much. Just today at the same pawn shop that had a NES selling for $100 and a SNES for $85, there sat a [model 1] Genesis for $19.99.

Uhhhh... I'm just going to bust out a new thread (http://www.digitpress.com/forum/showthread.php?170558-How-popular-is-the-Genesis-these-days&p=1991368#post1991368) for this rather than clunk up the RetroN 5 thread.

[Satoshi_Matrix]

I hope it's nice. If they hit a home run with this and it's actually a good alternative to enjoy these games on a modern HDTV, it would be a shame to be all but limited to wired controllers.

I'm alright with wireless controllers, but there's a lot to be said for wired controllers, especially OEM ones. A big part of the console experience is using the original controller it was designed with. Another factor is that whenever you have wireless controllers, you have battery life concerns.

While true that on the flipside cords can be tripped over and are a pain to deal with if you have small kids or dogs, but overall, wired is better than wireless when it comes to retro gaming.



They could've just directly copied the d-pad on the NES. That's what I'd of preferred and those patents are all expired.


Legally they can't. Nintendo has continually renewed and reused their cross shaped design on every console they're produced. Unlike the NES hardware, the design of the dpad - the overall shape, etc, is very much legally owned to Nintendo. Hyperkin can't copy it any more than Sony or Microsoft could.



It very well might not be financially practical to pursue, but I don't think it's from a lack of gamer interest. Among those willing to spend over $100 on a device to improve their 8/16 bit Sega/Nintendo gaming experience in 2013, I think you'd find a healthy percentage of those individuals with some interest in the NEC platform from that time.

I really, really don't think so. You might find a vocal minority on retro gaming forums like this one, but overall, I'd be shocked if even one tenth of the overall number of gamers who plan to buy the RetroN5 would actively care if Hyperkin added TG16/PCE support. True, such support might generate additional interest in the platform, but I do not believe interest preexists in the majority of gamers.

If it did, there would already be a market for PC Engine clones, PC Engine games would be common in retro game shops, and the online community would rival Nintendo's.

None of that is true. Only a small percentage of gamers remember the TG16 at all, let alone have heavy nostalgia for it to the point where including support in a clone like this would be justified.

Once again. I'm not saying that I wouldn't fully embrace PCE support. I'd love them to do that. All I'm pointing out are the reasons why that has a snowflake's chance in hell of happening. If the RetorN5 was made specifically for the Japanese market, it *might* happen, but for the west? No way.



I do think there's plenty of demand for Turbografx clones. It probably would cost more to manufacture which is why it isn't done. If any company made a clone Turbo Duo system I'm sure it would get major interest, since these are so expensive and seem to self destruct with age.

Instead we keep getting NES, SNES, and Genesis clones. Hardware that's still easy and cheap enough to find almost anywhere.

Stop to consider why we keep getting NES/SNES/Genesis clones. A big reason is because there's market demand for them. Because those were all successful platforms back in the day, and games in those formats are still readily available nearly anywhere.

The Turbo is not in that category. The system was an abysmal failure in the west in terms of sales and market penetration. TG16 games are exceedingly rare sights in your average game shop except perhaps in extremely large US cities.

Again, there might be a vocal minority of gamers on forums who want TG16 clones, but the reason that hasn't happened is because there isn't a large enough percentage of the retro gaming community to make it happen.



[QUOTE=treismac;1991369]I wonder what kind of market there is for the Genesis these days anyway, as I never see the system selling for much. Just today at the same pawn shop that had a NES selling for $100 and a SNES for $85, there sat a [model 1] Genesis for $19.99./QUOTE]


I think it has a lot to do with supply and demand. Sega consoles - once neck-and-neck rivals with Nintendo in the 16 bit generation - just don't have the same market demand as Nintendo consoles. I know the owner of a retro gaming store in my town and talk to him often about stuff he gets in and sells. That store isn't small, and stocks hundreds of thousands of games for many platforms.

Yet, he doesn't sell anything Sega. No Sega consoles, no Sega games. Not Master System, Genesis, Saturn, Dreamcast or GameGear. The reason? In his own words,

"they simply don't sell. People always want Nintendo games, but never the Sega ones. When I did sell them, most of what I'd get would be sports games that would sit on the shelves for months unsold for asking prices like $.99 or even $.50. They just aren't worth my while to stock."

As the Genesis was common yet nobody wants it much, the supply exceeds the demand, and thats how you end up with a price gap between Nintendo and Sega consoles. This might not be true everywhere, but I do think its a common enough occurrence to be at least a bit noticable no matter where you live reading this.

[Leo_A]

I'm alright with wireless controllers, but there's a lot to be said for wired controllers, especially OEM ones. A big part of the console experience is using the original controller it was designed with. Another factor is that whenever you have wireless controllers, you have battery life concerns.

While true that on the flipside cords can be tripped over and are a pain to deal with if you have small kids or dogs, but overall, wired is better than wireless when it comes to retro gaming.

Yeah, but the primary purpose of the Retron 5 seems to be to bring retro gaming back into the living room. So hopefully the wireless option is a viable one since that convenience is one of the features people will be seeking this out for.


Legally they can't. Nintendo has continually renewed and reused their cross shaped design on every console they're produced. Unlike the NES hardware, the design of the dpad - the overall shape, etc, is very much legally owned to Nintendo. Hyperkin can't copy it any more than Sony or Microsoft could.

How? Isn't it just protected by patents? I wasn't aware that those could be renewed. And using Google just now, it seems like a lot of people are under the same impression I had. It was only protected by patents and said patents have now expired.


Stop to consider why we keep getting NES/SNES/Genesis clones. A big reason is because there's market demand for them. Because those were all successful platforms back in the day, and games in those formats are still readily available nearly anywhere.

Well, I don't think that we're trying to incorrectly revise history and you're quite right about the popularity of the competition and why they're the focus here. But I still think that among the segment excited about a relatively expensive device for their classic gaming hobby that a lot of those Sega & Nintendo fans today also have an interest in the TurboGrafx.

They're going to need some hook to get us to buy revisions especially if they do a nice job with the Retron 5. And the most obvious way is to increase their system coverage. Among consoles they're not already emulating here, it's the best candidate with the most interest overlap.

And in the handheld realm, I imagine most everyone would agree that Game Gear would top the list by a wide margin.

[StoneAgeGamer]

Santoshi is completely right. The reason why you basically only see NES, Genesis, and SNES clones is because its really the only systems the market can bear. TG-16 clone would be terrible idea (business-wise). Its not a very popular system outside of the retro gaming community and many of the games are really expensive. Japan is not a very big market when it comes to clones. I think their main targets are U.S., Europe, and Brazil. The only way I could possibly see it if they made an adapter for the R5, but even the costs to produce the adapter may not be worth their time. They aren't going to do anything like this until they feel the R5 is a hit. Whether its a hit depends on if it delivers. I think Hyperkin has a lot riding on this system. They are not a big company and this is a pretty big project to undertake.

Also for those suggesting disc-based clones. I highly doubt it will ever happen. Just too many issues.

P.S. I am not being a hater. I would love to see good clones made of all sorts of systems, but from the business side I completely understand why they don't. Most likely anything outside of really popular systems would be a disaster financially. I think people totally under estimate how much something like that costs up front to produce.

[Leo_A]

I don't really disagree with either of you. Rather, I'm putting forth the most likely addition if they were to expand their platform coverage in a future revision. I'm not sure of its viability, just that it's likely more viable than any other console from the period that isn't already being emulated by this device.

Next to the Neo Geo which is is even more expensive and difficult to acquire cartridges for, I can't think of another cartridge based console, other than perhaps support for 32X carts, that would make any sense to include in a device aimed at fans of Nintendo & Sega console gaming from 1985-1995 other than the Turbo-Grafx-16. It was a direct albeit distant competitor overlapping both Sega & Nintendo generations, saw many games released for it, and has a lot of awareness among classic gamers today that love this era of gaming.

I don't think it's unfair to say that probably well over 75% of Retron 5 buyers will have an awareness of the TG16 with a healthy percentage of those having at least some TG16 games in their collection today or wanting to expand to include that platform where as the percentage back in 1990 in this country among Sega & Nintendo gamers was probably a mere fraction of that with most never having even heard of it.

The people building up collections for these consoles today tend to also at least have an interest in the TurboGrafx/PC Engine. If they were to expand their coverage areas, I think this for consoles and the Game Gear for handhelds are the two most logical additions. They're not going to be selling many Retron 5's to people that stumble across some old carts in their attic. At $100, it's a bit past something people would buy at the spur of the moment for some nostalgia.

Rather, people like ourselves are going to be the average Retron 5 customer.

[StoneAgeGamer]

And the most obvious way is to increase their system coverage. Among consoles they're not already emulating here, it's the best candidate with the most interest overlap. And in the handheld realm, I imagine most everyone would agree that Game Gear would top the list by a wide margin.

The Game Gear did well, but your everyday Joe has no idea what a Game Gear is. However everyone and their brother knows what a Game Boy is. Of course if the R5 does really well it might be worth them making an adapter, but I think it would have to do REALLY well.

I think people are under the idea that this system is for us. Its not. I know that's what Hyperkin is telling everyone and that's a common line companies take when marketing. By X for X. If Hyperkin only had us to rely on they wouldn't bother making such a system. People think the $99.99 price tag is out of the casual gamer's price range for such a device. I disagree, casual gamers are often less concerned with the price than hardcore gamers are. You know how many flash carts we sell to casual gamers? They are probably our biggest customer and as many people know flash carts are not cheap. We've had people who dropped $260 on a SD2SNES Deluxe and tell us they can't wait for their SNES to arrive to they can relive their childhood. These same people will be buying the R5. Yes of course if its good their will be many hardcore gamers buying it as well, but the money will be made from the casuals. Those casuals don't care about GG, TG-16, etc. They want the big boys NES/Famicom, Game Boy, Genesis, and SNES. Those are the games they have in their closet most likely.

[Leo_A]

If casuals end up representing much of their business, it certainly does change things up and much of what I said flies right out the window.

One possible solution to all of this would be rom loading. If they ever stop being scared of the boogeyman, they wouldn't even need to physically support niche platforms. Especially if they left open an avenue to install a custom emulator to the lineup, the community itself could expand it and tailor it to its own needs.

Whatever happens, if they do a reasonable job here right out of the gate, they're going to have to do something to get people to double dip in a couple of years just like how NES clones eventually branched out to include SNES & Genesis coverage to get people to bite and how people continually bought new clones in the hope of improved compatibility and accuracy.

They're going to need a new hook or they're going to have a tough time selling the Retron 6 and subsequent products if they hit a home run with the Retron 5.

[StoneAgeGamer]

I don't think it's unfair to say that probably well over 75% of Retron 5 buyers will have an awareness of the TG16 with a healthy percentage of those having at least some TG16 games in their collection today or wanting to expand to include that platform where as the percentage back in 1990 in this country among Sega & Nintendo gamers was probably a mere fraction of that with most never having even heard of it.


I doubt that even 25% would (see my previous post). I do agree with you that instead of adding more slots they should make adapters if its financially viable, but most people who buy an R5 will not know what a TG-16 is. They may have a fuzzy memory of it, but it won't be of any concern to them. I could go to any of my childhood friends and ask them if they remember Game Boy, NES, Genesis, or SNES and all of them will. If I ask them if they remember TG-16 I would surprised if any of them did. I think sometimes we get caught up in this bubble and we think things that seem common knowledge to us in this community is common knowledge to all gamers. Its just not the case.

[Leo_A]

Yes, but how many of them are aware of the Retron 5? How many of those would be aware of the Retron 5 if they didn't have a friendship with you?

I may be underestimating the casual demand here, but one thing that we haven't mentioned much is the wide price disparity between this and competing products. Why should the average Joe that dug some cartridges out of his attic pick the most expensive clone system to play them on even if a $100 price tag isn't necessarily a major deterrent to such customers?

I'd be foolish to disagree completely with you. Running a well liked online business that deals in this product, you're obviously in a better position to understand this market. But I'm still inclined to think that the casual business is going to be the minority for this new clone unless Hyperkin and retailers do a heck of a selling job to get potential customers to understand why an option twice as much as competing products (that on the surface seem much the same) is worth it in the end.

[Satoshi_Matrix]

Isn't [the design of the NES dpad] just protected by patents? I wasn't aware that those could be renewed. And using Google just now, it seems like a lot of people are under the same impression I had. It was only protected by patents and said patents have now expired.

Yes, that specific patent has expired. However, it was renewed each and every time Nintendo brought out a new console with the same cross design for the dpad. That patent is now currently for the WiiU and 3DS which still use the same design. Hyperkin can't copy it without risking legal action.



Yes, but how many of them are aware of the Retron 5? How many of those would be aware of the Retron 5 if they didn't have a friendship with you?

I bet a large number of people who will eventually buy a Retorn5 will have never heard of it until they come across one in a store, just like the NeoGeoX Gold and Atari Flashbacks.



I may be underestimating the casual demand here, but one thing that we haven't mentioned much is the wide price disparity between this and competing products. Why should the average Joe that dug some cartridges out of his attic pick the most expensive clone system to play them on even if a $100 price tag isn't necessarily a major deterrent to such customers?

Convenience and space reduction. Those regions are BIG. Most people don't want five consoles with five connections and five power supplies. They want one console that does it all. The biggest analogy is the Ouya, which is a tiny little rubix cube sized thing that does a whole lot of things.

[Leo_A]

Yes, that specific patent has expired. However, it was renewed each and every time Nintendo brought out a new console with the same cross design for the dpad. That patent is now currently for the WiiU and 3DS which still use the same design. Hyperkin can't copy it without risking legal action.

I knew of maintenance fees for patents, but this is the first I've ever heard of being able to renew them like copyrights and trademarks. You can't patent the same thing twice. If they've had subsequent d-pad patents since then, something has to have been changed that they're patenting.



I bet a large number of people who will eventually buy a Retorn5 will have never heard of it until they come across one in a store, just like the NeoGeoX Gold and Atari Flashbacks.


I suspect few ever will have the opportunity. I think GameStop carried the Generation NEX, but these aren't things you will typically see at retail. The vast majority of their business will be via Amazon, eBay, and specialty online retailers like StoneAgeGamer. They will surely sell some through independent videogame retailers, but online is where I think it's safe to say the bulk of their business is at unlike something like the Atari Flashback or AtGames products at places like Walgreens, Wal-Mart, and Dollar General.

And there, it's going to be something you typically have to specifically be seeking out. It's more than possible to come across things online you weren't seeking out, but opportunities are much reduced compared to B&M.



Convenience and space reduction. Those regions are BIG. Most people don't want five consoles with five connections and five power supplies. They want one console that does it all. The biggest analogy is the Ouya, which is a tiny little rubix cube sized thing that does a whole lot of things.

First, I doubt many casuals are even interested in more than a platform or two among the 6 systems able to be directly played on this (7 if we include the SMS). So right there, space reduction advantages are reduced.

Secondly, all these clones offer up advantages in simplifying connections and saving space. So that alone isn't a reason to pay a premium over something like Hyperkin's own Retron 3. And even if the Retron 5 was a mere fraction in size of many of these (And it sure looks like it's actually going to be larger than typical judging by pictures), that isn't easily communicated online to a potential customer.

Price sure seems like a sticking point to the casual market to me. It very well might be able to bear the cost like StoneAgeGamer said but they're going to have to do a good selling job to entice people to pay that premium. Casuals aren't going to do much research and on the surface, one clone is much the same as the next.

We know the potential benefits being tossed around for this and that's why we're excited and optimistic for this and why this thread is as long as it is. But that's not the market we're talking about here. They're dealing with one that is largely going to consider two things; will it play my old cartridges and how much does it cost?

[Tanooki]

Loving this reality check discussion on the device. It really is what it is, but I do hope that hyperkin despite obviously saying one thing but catering to another will keep that promise of keeping things supposedly 100% compatible. A true casual will remember Mario or Mega Man or Vectorman, but they may have a less solid memory if every note or shade of green is proper because 100% could be 'it runs all carts, but not 100% right' kind of like that passable stuff atgames does with those hand held genesis systems which are solid but the emulator is a bit lacking(and nauseatingly won't even save games.)

There's nothing to be fooled about when you wonder if a casual will find this. They will. These things don't just show up at mom and pop shops, they also pop up in national chains at times too around holidays like Dollar General and so on, it just depends how well it's marketed and who will plop it on the shelf. And if you couple that shelf space with paid heirarchy in search engines to be that first item that pops up for 'retro console for (snes, etc)' and people see this Retron 5 thing that has bluetooth controllers, HDMI and plays 5 different classic gaming systems, they'll be all over it. Some may want to know more, they will, some will check ebay and see what each system alone costs, then they'll see $100 and be like THIS!

Sure we're interested, but we're the minority who play a little more than in passing or for like a dozen good memories of the 80s and 90s. It's like NES game collector trolls who love to ban, harassed, insult and fuck with those who like to make boxes, manuals, and other restoration junk for their battered old games. They're a minority, they'll be vocal, but in the end they're one against a hundred -- just as we are the one against a hundred other who would love to have this for memories, price, and convenience.

[JSoup]

I bet a large number of people who will eventually buy a Retorn5 will have never heard of it until they come across one in a store, just like the NeoGeoX Gold and Atari Flashbacks.

I'm betting just coming across it in a store won't mean anything. When the Retron3 was new, I saw it at the first Play-N-Trade in my city. They had stuck it with the other clone crap they were selling, like those plug and play Atari controllers. The owners didn't really seem to know anything about the Retron, just got set a stock of them by corporate and were assuming they were the same crap as the aforementioned plug and play controllers. Having read about the thing on these forums, I was able to correct them, but they still didn't sell any of them before that particular store closed down.

[Satoshi_Matrix]

Well sure, that's one example. but even in my tiny town here, that wasn't the case for the RetroN5, Atari Flashbacks, or even the $200 NeoGeo X Gold.

[JSoup]

-but even in my tiny town here, that wasn't the case for the RetroN5, Atari Flashbacks, or even the $200 NeoGeo X Gold.

Well sure, that's one example.

[Leo_A]

There's nothing to be fooled about when you wonder if a casual will find this. They will. These things don't just show up at mom and pop shops, they also pop up in national chains at times too around holidays like Dollar General and so on, it just depends how well it's marketed and who will plop it on the shelf

I've never seen any NES clones and such at such places. Plug and plays with built in games from back in the day but not dedicated clones. The closest I've ever came to seeing something like this at retail is the AtGames Genesis console with onboard games and a cartridge slot. Nothing else I've ever seen accepted original media at a mainstream retailer.

I haven't been told anything that would suggest I'm wrong about the market composition for this. The only reason I'm even having any sort of doubt on my viewpoint is because of StoneAgeGamer and his experience so if he says that casuals will buy this, that carries a lot of weight and is reason enough to try to keep an open mind. But beyond that, it sure still seems to me that the only way the Retron 5 stands a chance with the average uninformed casual customer would be if things like the Retron 3 are widely unavailable for half the price.

Provide an option for half the price that plays NES/SNES/Genesis games and that's what most of that segment will go for beyond the minority that do their research and discover that the Retron 5 offers advantages that are hopefully worth the premium. And all that brings us back to the dedicated classic gamer that is a regular forum goer and such as the core of their market for this.

People like ourselves.


Well sure, that's one example. but even in my tiny town here, that wasn't the case for the RetroN5, Atari Flashbacks, or even the $200 NeoGeo X Gold.

Out of curiosity, what sort of store carried the NeoGeo X? I've came across many instances of Atari Flashbacks, AtGames Sega products, and such but I never came across one of these. Did they ever get it carried in a major brick & mortar chain?

I rather figured that online accounted for the vast majority of sales of that one. Wasn't particularly cheap and at least around here, it didn't seem available at retail.

[wiggyx]

I see clone consoles at many local game shops. Dunno if they sell at all, but I do see them all over the place here.

[Leo_A]

Are you in an urban area? Outside of those, local game shops are few and far between. When they've tried such a thing up here in upstate NY for instance, it never sticks around for long. So it's just GameStops along with the usual other major retail chains that carry videogames as a sideline. And clones have next to no presence at such retailers.

I'd probably have to go two hours to find the nearest nice independent game store.

[wiggyx]

In the 'burbs of Cleveland and Akron, Ohio.

[Satoshi_Matrix]

Out of curiosity, what sort of store carried the NeoGeo X? I've came across many instances of Atari Flashbacks, AtGames Sega products, and such but I never came across one of these. Did they ever get it carried in a major brick & mortar chain?

I rather figured that online accounted for the vast majority of sales of that one. Wasn't particularly cheap and at least around here, it didn't seem available at retail.

A family owned game shop that sells used games and consoles. It's not a large retail chain, but rather a local business that has a few stores in three local towns within 30ish minutes driving distance. They sell a number of clones, not just the NeoGeo X.

It's not GameStop or anything like that.

[mercuryshadow09]

This is a copy paste from this thread!

http://www.digitpress.com/forum/showthread.php?170560-RetroN5-Hands-on-first-look/page3

So it looks like you will be able to save to the RetroN5 or the cartridge!

http://i39.tinypic.com/21m6zpu.png

Here is a link to the video I got the screen cap from, Hyperkin posted it on their Facebook page today!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ac0-NJ6JGbo&feature=share

https://www.facebook.com/HyperkinGames