Do you play your collections?

[o.pwuaioc]

When did I say "every"?

It's never 100%, if you don't think they lose revenue to piracy that's kind of ignorant.

https://ap.nintendo.com/

You see that mario in that link? his frown is upside down :(

This is how I know you're just trolling.

http://www.nag.co.za/2013/03/25/eu-now-says-piracy-doesnt-affect-music-sales/

http://torrentfreak.com/bittorrent-piracy-doesnt-affect-us-box-office-returns-study-finds-120210/

I wouldn't have even bothered since you're obviously just trying to get a rise out of folks, but since this shit is top link on Google, it wasn't that hard to bring up. Studies show that piracy doesn't affect sales at all. Corporations can and often are mistaken. I mean, just look at the Virtual Boy! You trust the company that put out that abomination to be accurate on piracy figures?

[needler420]

This is how I know you're just trolling.

http://www.nag.co.za/2013/03/25/eu-now-says-piracy-doesnt-affect-music-sales/

http://torrentfreak.com/bittorrent-piracy-doesnt-affect-us-box-office-returns-study-finds-120210/

I wouldn't have even bothered since you're obviously just trying to get a rise out of folks, but since this shit is top link on Google, it wasn't that hard to bring up. Studies show that piracy doesn't affect sales at all. Corporations can and often are mistaken. I mean, just look at the Virtual Boy! You trust the company that put out that abomination to be accurate on piracy figures?

You realize torrent freak is a piracy site. They are a blog site about bit torrent which hosts illegal content. It's more then a file sharing site.

The links you provided are the dumbest non credbile sources. That fact Nintendo still has a running ANTI piracy website shows how ignorant you are.

[o.pwuaioc]

You realize torrent freak is a piracy site. They are a blog site about bit torrent which hosts illegal content. It's more then a file sharing site.

The links you provided are the dumbest non credbile sources. That fact Nintendo still has a running ANTI piracy website shows how ignorant you are.

Oh, you! The study was publicized everywhere. I just picked two easy links from the first page of Google. But since you seem to be too incompetent to do basic fact-checking yourself, how about Wall Street Journal?

http://blogs.wsj.com/tech-europe/2013/03/20/piracy-does-not-hurt-digital-music-sales-e-u-study/

[JSoup]

Studies show that piracy doesn't affect sales at all. Corporations can and often are mistaken.

Not arguing the point, just contributing an interesting story as a counter point:

http://www.quartertothree.com/game-talk/showthread.php?42663-Venting-my-frustrations-with-PC-game-dev

[Ed Oscuro]

You realize torrent freak is a piracy site. They are a blog site about bit torrent which hosts illegal content. It's more then a file sharing site.

The links you provided are the dumbest non credbile sources. That fact Nintendo still has a running ANTI piracy website shows how ignorant you are.
Just to play devil's advocate, what makes Nintendo a credible source here? They are a reputable company, but they employ spin like everybody else.

Remember, this is the same gaming industry that words their statements so they can blame consumers (http://kotaku.com/5340337/sony-explain-why-the-ps3-slim-has-no-backwards-compatibility) for the decision to pull backwards compatibility from systems. Actually, they have to blame something for everything. Final Fantasy XIII did poorly because it was a lousy game? Blame 'subpar' sales of 3.4M+ Tomb Raider sales within weeks of launch, and blame the "ineffective sales force," anything but acknowledge they made a series of decisions, and have to sleep with them. Anyway that's way beyond a tangent now but yeah.

Intellectual property piracy and property rights are one of those areas that will typically be informed by a person's own interests, or their own personal observations (hey, I think piracy is great because MAME introduced me to tons of great games I can play at home on the original hardware, legally, now), or their own beliefs about rights and whatnot. In terms of facts, though, this is a pollster's nightmare; given the nature of the subject it is not going to be very easy to get concrete data on whether piracy helps or hurts the market as a whole. It is very easy to see that a person getting something for free when they might have paid is a kind of "theft," but it is not obvious whether this doesn't actually work like some marketing exposure that opens up new possibility for revenue in the future. Free to play and online games in general are pretty smart about putting the carrot out there, without having to have an adversarial relationship with the player, as both game maker and debt collector.

[o.pwuaioc]

Not arguing the point, just contributing an interesting story as a counter point:

http://www.quartertothree.com/game-talk/showthread.php?42663-Venting-my-frustrations-with-PC-game-dev

I thought we were talking about ROMs from the mid-90s... :confused:

I in no way condone piracy of new games. Heck, I even pay for free bandcamp albums. But if there's good evidence that piracy doesn't affect music sales, then there's no way that piracy of ROMs can affect video game sales, especially since they're no longer being made! That line of argument doesn't make any sense at all.

[needler420]

I thought we were talking about ROMs from the mid-90s... :confused:

I in no way condone piracy of new games. Heck, I even pay for free bandcamp albums. But if there's good evidence that piracy doesn't affect music sales, then there's no way that piracy of ROMs can affect video game sales, especially since they're no longer being made! That line of argument doesn't make any sense at all.

You don't seem to get this part.

What's the difference if the company invests in physical reproduction or digital? The point is if any reproduction is done from the content owners they will take a lose related to piracy. Hence why it's illegal and you trying to keep justifying it keeps sounding dumber and dumber.

Your posts also sound ignorant ( probably not just to me) and make you look like a tool. Kind of ironic for someone to call me a troll.

and lmao that piracy doesn't affect music. You must have never heard of Napster or Sean Parker.

[wiggyx]

You don't seem to get this part.

What's the difference if the company invests in physical reproduction or digital? The point is if any reproduction is done from the content owners they will take a lose related to piracy. Hence why it's illegal and you trying to keep justifying it keeps sounding dumber and dumber.

Your posts also sound ignorant ( probably not just to me) and make you look like a tool. Kind of ironic for someone to call me a troll.

and lmao that piracy doesn't affect music. You must have never heard of Napster or Sean Parker.


How do you define "loss" in the instance of reproduction games? Please explain to me how there is financial loss for the IP owners.

[needler420]

How do you define "loss" in the instance of reproduction games? Please explain to me how there is financial loss for the IP owners.

If there is no patent or license on the content there never can be a loss to begin with. If there is a patent or license and someone gets ahold of copyright material and redistributes it then its a given there is financial loss.

The best example is Metallica vs Napster as it went to the supreme court and metallica won.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metallica_v._Napster,_Inc.

[Daltone]

I often put on a tri corner hat emblazened with the skull and crossbones whilst balancing a stuffed parrot on my shoulder when sailing the internets. Occasionally I shout at my fiancee to hoist the main sail and load the cannons.

It is incredibly easy to break all kinds of piddling little copyright laws whilst surfing online and I like to look the part whilst I do it. I haven't downloaded a ROM in years, but it wouldn't stop me. I can live with it being illegal. I do buy re-releases, I spend huge sums at GOG.com, but if it is impossible to rerelease a game for legal reasons (think about Goldeneye - not going to happen any time soon) or if the market for a rerelease simply isn't there then I will happily try out a ROM.

[Atarileaf]

A hearty round of applause for everybody who took the time to write about how they don't have time to play their games (myself included, as I wrote)!

I think a great many in this crowd are irony impaired ;)

[Zing]

Is this a joke thread? Of course we all play our collections. Game hunting is meaningless if you don't actually play your games.

I know you frequent Nintendoage, so you know that what you say is not always true. Not only are there many people who do not play their games, but they acquire new games with no intent of ever playing them.

Edit: wow, does this needler420 guy shit on every thread with his "pirating" babble?

[wiggyx]

If there is no patent or license on the content there never can be a loss to begin with. If there is a patent or license and someone gets ahold of copyright material and redistributes it then its a given there is financial loss.

The best example is Metallica vs Napster as it went to the supreme court and metallica won.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metallica_v._Napster,_Inc.

No.

There is no "given" or automatic loss, and in the case of retro game repros/downloads, there is virtually NO loss to claim. You're so stubborn and belligerent that it would be a complete waste of my time to explain why your logic is beyond busted, so I won't.




Edit: wow, does this needler420 guy shit on every thread with his "pirating" babble?

Yes. Yes he does. Like he's being paid to.

[needler420]

No.

There is no "given" or automatic loss, and in the case of retro game repros/downloads, there is virtually NO loss to claim. You're so stubborn and belligerent that it would be a complete waste of my time to explain why your logic is beyond busted, so I won't.




Yes. Yes he does. Like he's being paid to.


Says the guy who started selling illegal rerpos whom I got shut down on two sites.

[JSoup]

Says the guy who started selling illegal rerpos whom I got shut down on two sites.

Interesting. I was actually thinking he was going to get kicked off of these forums for same when he first started advertising his business.

[wiggyx]

Says the guy who started selling illegal rerpos whom I got shut down on two sites.

Good comeback from the jobless pothead. You know nearly nothing about copyright law and licensing. Everything you type is just vague hyperbole at best, with absolutely nothing to back up your astoundingly broad and ignorant claims. Also, it's pretty clear that NOBODY is interested in your rantings about piracy. What's with the crusade? It's just about all you ever talk about. Was your family raped by video game pirates or something?

What's this other mystery site you speak of?

You cried and moaned in my CAG thread like I was stomping your puppy. The same thing you do in EVERY thread, which is what gets you fairly regular vacations from CAG. You're pretty good at getting yourself shut down as well. Quite a skill you have there.

[o.pwuaioc]

Hey guys, I just found out there's an ignore list. Ignoring the troll would probably be the best thing at this point.

[JSoup]

What's with the crusade? It's just about all you ever talk about. Was your family raped by video game pirates or something?

I get the impression he/she is young and hasn't reached "that" point yet. That point that most people on either side of the piracy debate eventually reach. Everyone seems to start out being either A) completely for it, B) completely against it or C) some level of indifferent to it. Then, eventually, each person kinda just accepts that piracy exists, is going to happen and nothing is really going to stop it. At that point, the arguments back off from heated nerd fights to simply "I don't like it and here is why", "I do like it and here is why", [SHORT LEGAL DISCUSSION HERE] and everyone goes about their merry way.

[wiggyx]

Hey guys, I just found out there's an ignore list. Ignoring the troll would probably be the best thing at this point.

It sporadically doesn't work for me. I've tried a few times and it doesn't always let me do it :/

[Guyra]

I play games in my collection, and I don't collect sealed or anything - I want all of the games in my collection to be playable.

However, I haven't played all of the games in my collection, not even close. But I love having a large game library, and being able to just walk over to my shelves and go, "hey, this looks interesting, I think I'll try this game out today!"

:)

[wiggyx]

^^^ Did that very thing last night. Friend was over, saw Muramasa on my shelf and said "what's this?" I bought it months ago when it was dirt cheap knowing good and well that I wanted to play it at some point, and last night was the right time to crack it open and give it a go.

'Twas good times too! :)

[Ed Oscuro]

How do you define "loss" in the instance of reproduction games? Please explain to me how there is financial loss for the IP owners.
To give an actually helpful answer, this loss is extrapolated from the potential of sales (including in other media, i.e. Wii VC sales).

It's not going to give you exact answers - by definition this is something that cannot be counted - but this is nothing new for the courts. Whether the estimates are high or low is always open for debate, of course.

I know some people were working to produce official versions of semi-recent homebrew and out-of-production Famicom games, but probably the market was not especially good with the prevalence of emulators foremost, and probably the availability of unlicensed (and strictly illegal btw) homebrew versions of said games. Aside from production samples of the game cartridges, nothing ever was released.

[dbm11085]

I try to. Granted, some games in my collection are just there because of their value (or I found a good deal at the time), but generally speaking I try to buy games I actually have an interest in playing AND will look good on my shelves. :)

[o.pwuaioc]

To give an actually helpful answer, this loss is extrapolated from the potential of sales (including in other media, i.e. Wii VC sales).

It's not going to give you exact answers - by definition this is something that cannot be counted - but this is nothing new for the courts. Whether the estimates are high or low is always open for debate, of course.

I know some people were working to produce official versions of semi-recent homebrew and out-of-production Famicom games, but probably the market was not especially good with the prevalence of emulators foremost, and probably the availability of unlicensed (and strictly illegal btw) homebrew versions of said games. Aside from production samples of the game cartridges, nothing ever was released.

It's not new for courts, but it's not necessarily backed up by evidence. I've downloaded several (well, a lot more than I care to share) academic books, the price of which is positively prohibitive. If wouldn't ever buy many of these, and those that I would buy I will still buy because I prefer to have a hard copy on which I can jot down notes. There is absolutely no loss to the publisher, because I would never buy these, instead rather requesting them through InterLibrary Loan, putting a financial strain on that courier system. Sometimes I would not even have requested them, for downloading them both led me to find books I would not have otherwise known about allowed me to disregard books which were not helpful after all. The net result is that my research is better, my colleague's research is better, and scholarship is being advanced. Even if the publishers suffered slight loss of revenue, that would be offset by the contributions to scholarship and science.

This is probably different than your example, but for that it seems to me a scapegoat. The market isn't there, so they assume it's because of emulators. But is that really the case? I know few people who are retro collectors who prefer emulation to the real thing, and even if an actual cart were produced with no ROM to be found of it online, some of these same people still would not get the cart because they already switched to emulation. You can't count a loss that which would not have sold in the first place.

[Steven]

I play games in my collection, and I don't collect sealed or anything - I want all of the games in my collection to be playable.

However, I haven't played all of the games in my collection, not even close. But I love having a large game library, and being able to just walk over to my shelves and go, "hey, this looks interesting, I think I'll try this game out today!"

:)

What Guyra said :)

I love having a library of all the (SNES) games I ever wanted, but never could own back in the day. It's like I'm fulfilling my childhood dreams, as someone once eloquently put it years ago. In fact, I have a goal of beating (or, at least, trying to complete) every last SNES game I own, and eventually writing a review of it up on my website RVGFanatic. I've been doing this for the last 7 years, and it has been a blast. Still going strong, and haven't once burn out yet. I can't tell you how satisfying it is to focus on playing through one game at a time. Then beating it, shelving it and tackling the next. No longer do I "test" games or "fool around" with them randomly for 30 minutes at a time. Now I concentrate on beating them. It's been a blast.

[Koga316]

Yep, I play them. Gamer first, collector second. :)

[Steven]

What Guyra said :)

I love having a library of all the (SNES) games I ever wanted, but never could own back in the day. It's like I'm fulfilling my childhood dreams, as someone once eloquently put it years ago. In fact, I have a goal of beating (or, at least, trying to complete) every last SNES game I own, and eventually writing a review of it up on my website RVGFanatic. I've been doing this for the last 7 years, and it has been a blast. Still going strong, and haven't once burn out yet. I can't tell you how satisfying it is to focus on playing through one game at a time. Then beating it, shelving it and tackling the next. No longer do I "test" games or "fool around" with them randomly for 30 minutes at a time. Now I concentrate on beating them. It's been a blast.


The best way to describe it is it's like having a "Netflix" collection. You got hundreds of games on your queue list. Some days you get the urge to play a certain game. Maybe it was 60th on your list, but at any given moment you have the freedom to "bump it to the top." Nothing is greater than that choice. You can play whatever you feel like playing, because you own it. You just gotta decide what you feel like playing next.

[needler420]

Interesting. I was actually thinking he was going to get kicked off of these forums for same when he first started advertising his business.

That wouldn't be a bad thing.

I voted worst villian of the year for him on CAG but I don't think it counts since it's 2012 and he didn't try to sell illegal repros till this year. He's on too many sites trying to solicit his services.

[recorderdude]

I'm not getting this burn-em-at-the-stake repro hatred. Was the guy selling repros and trying to pass them off as originals, or is selling repros/promoting a repro business just against forum rules here? I can understand the concern people would have with mistaking them for the originals - in that case I'd honestly just go out of my way to make them look different, such as the clear genesis boxes used in some repros or see-through colored cartridges SAG/RetroUSB used for theirs.

As to swerve this topic away from its rather lopsided direction, I've found my time for both adding to and playing my collection declining due to the demands of senior work recently - I hope that this won't continue for all too long as I'm pretty much going to lose ANY chance to kick back once I'm in college.

[needler420]

I'm not getting this burn-em-at-the-stake repro hatred. Was the guy selling repros and trying to pass them off as originals, or is selling repros/promoting a repro business just against forum rules here? I can understand the concern people would have with mistaking them for the originals - in that case I'd honestly just go out of my way to make them look different, such as the clear genesis boxes used in some repros or see-through colored cartridges SAG/RetroUSB used for theirs.

As to swerve this topic away from its rather lopsided direction, I've found my time for both adding to and playing my collection declining due to the demands of senior work recently - I hope that this won't continue for all too long as I'm pretty much going to lose ANY chance to kick back once I'm in college.

If he was selling repros trying to pass them off as originals he probably would have got banned and his reputation for custom mods would be ruined. It was the latter which is still illegal and against TOS.

All they do is take an illegal rom and dump it on a physical cartridge. You need the content licence to be able to sell it. Specially on a level where you have your own website. It's like loading a flash cart with roms.

[BricatSegaFan]

I have nothing but respect for wiggy. He did an awesome job my nomad and wonderswan. I wish his business the best.

As for playing my collections, I sure love to play em. No point in letting my money just sit on a shelf :)

[SpaceHarrier]

I just can't bring myself to 'collect' games I don't intend to play. I've even gotten rid of classic games (like Bionic Commando) that make 'top ten' lists because they just don't appeal to me personally. I'd like to think that game will eventually make its way to someone who will truly play and appreciate it, or who has nostalgic love for the game. I don't, so I set it free.

I've never even pulled the trigger on my personal holy grail item, and it's not even that rare or expensive, because I know it will just sit there in the box as a trophy. I believe games exist to be played and appreciated wholly, not just on a shelf.

[o.pwuaioc]

I just can't bring myself to 'collect' games I don't intend to play. I've even gotten rid of classic games (like Bionic Commando) that make 'top ten' lists because they just don't appeal to me personally. I'd like to think that game will eventually make its way to someone who will truly play and appreciate it, or who has nostalgic love for the game. I don't, so I set it free.
I'm the exact way! I recently got rid of all three NES Double Dragons, and will soon hemorrhage some more titles that people love but I can't get into, like .hack and Persona.

[ZP3]

I'm not getting this burn-em-at-the-stake repro hatred. Was the guy selling repros and trying to pass them off as originals, or is selling repros/promoting a repro business just against forum rules here? I can understand the concern people would have with mistaking them for the originals - in that case I'd honestly just go out of my way to make them look different, such as the clear genesis boxes used in some repros or see-through colored cartridges SAG/RetroUSB used for theirs.

As to swerve this topic away from its rather lopsided direction, I've found my time for both adding to and playing my collection declining due to the demands of senior work recently - I hope that this won't continue for all too long as I'm pretty much going to lose ANY chance to kick back once I'm in college.

You are a senior too? I feel you, with track starting, I've only made one thrift shop run in the last three weeks.

[needler420]

I just can't bring myself to 'collect' games I don't intend to play. I've even gotten rid of classic games (like Bionic Commando) that make 'top ten' lists because they just don't appeal to me personally. I'd like to think that game will eventually make its way to someone who will truly play and appreciate it, or who has nostalgic love for the game. I don't, so I set it free.

I've never even pulled the trigger on my personal holy grail item, and it's not even that rare or expensive, because I know it will just sit there in the box as a trophy. I believe games exist to be played and appreciated wholly, not just on a shelf.

This is why I slowed down on my collecting. I realized the way I was going, I was going to be one of those guys that always whines about having a big back log yet never plays them and continues to add new games to the backlog yet some how thinks the problem is going to fix itself.

I'm actually about to get a new gaming PC to help slow down my collecting. I been saving from buying video games to fund a new gaming PC. Diablo 3 and starcraft 2 will keep me busy for quite awhile having fun and I won't break the bank to have a collection of games to stare at and test.

I think it's a given almost every poster that posted probably owns a game that they never even played before or still owns a game sealed. Some people really take that to stupid obsessions though. It's kind of stupid when you want a library of a thousand games that you hardly ever play and you're reason for owning them is nostalgia. But if it makes them happy.

[Ed Oscuro]

It's not new for courts, but it's not necessarily backed up by evidence. I've downloaded several (well, a lot more than I care to share) academic books, the price of which is positively prohibitive. If wouldn't ever buy many of these, and those that I would buy I will still buy because I prefer to have a hard copy on which I can jot down notes. There is absolutely no loss to the publisher, because I would never buy these, instead rather requesting them through InterLibrary Loan, putting a financial strain on that courier system. Sometimes I would not even have requested them, for downloading them both led me to find books I would not have otherwise known about allowed me to disregard books which were not helpful after all. The net result is that my research is better, my colleague's research is better, and scholarship is being advanced. Even if the publishers suffered slight loss of revenue, that would be offset by the contributions to scholarship and science.

This is probably different than your example, but for that it seems to me a scapegoat. The market isn't there, so they assume it's because of emulators. But is that really the case? I know few people who are retro collectors who prefer emulation to the real thing, and even if an actual cart were produced with no ROM to be found of it online, some of these same people still would not get the cart because they already switched to emulation. You can't count a loss that which would not have sold in the first place.
Yeah, I think your reasoning is pretty sound here. However there is still (purportedly, at least) a good reason to attempt to punish these kinds of inconsequential or "victimless" IP thefts, because of the competition of illegal or unsanctioned distribution against the original owner's distribution and therefore payment (or at least popular credit for the work). It certainly is clear that the original copyright holder of a book, a novelist for example, should not have to lose sales or credit to somebody else who has simply copied his work. When we get to the point of having unsanctioned but free distribution of a copyrighted work, it still represents a potential form of competition against that copyright holder. The reason for banning these illegal sales is not vengeance against the illegal copyist for making a profit, but rather the negative consequence on the copyright holder and the impact on their ability to sell their work, which would have broader problems for society. So this reasoning holds whether the copy is made with or without profit, and it is further extended by the thought that there is a probability some legitimate sales would be lost due to competition with the unsanctioned channel of release.

[wiggyx]

That wouldn't be a bad thing.

I voted worst villian of the year for him on CAG but I don't think it counts since it's 2012 and he didn't try to sell illegal repros till this year. He's on too many sites trying to solicit his services.

I'm on "too many sites"?

Don't forget to mention that you've been nominated by no less than 5 people for worst villain on CAG, while I've only been nominated by you out of retaliation. People over there like me. They don't like you.


I'm not getting this burn-em-at-the-stake repro hatred. Was the guy selling repros and trying to pass them off as originals, or is selling repros/promoting a repro business just against forum rules here? I can understand the concern people would have with mistaking them for the originals - in that case I'd honestly just go out of my way to make them look different, such as the clear genesis boxes used in some repros or see-through colored cartridges SAG/RetroUSB used for theirs.

As to swerve this topic away from its rather lopsided direction, I've found my time for both adding to and playing my collection declining due to the demands of senior work recently - I hope that this won't continue for all too long as I'm pretty much going to lose ANY chance to kick back once I'm in college.

There are no "originals" of the 2 games that I made.


All they do is take an illegal rom and dump it on a physical cartridge.

No.

"All" I do is a shit ton more than that. Get a clue.

[needler420]

I'm on "too many sites"?

Don't forget to mention that you've been nominated by no less than 5 people for worst villain on CAG, while I've only been nominated by you out of retaliation. People over there like me. They don't like you.



There are no "originals" of the 2 games that I made.



No.

"All" I do is a shit ton more than that. Get a clue.


I just like busting your balls lol.:onfire:

[wiggyx]

I just like busting your balls lol.:onfire:



Why?


Seriously, I've got better shit to do than to address your accusations and incorrect information. Please find something better to do than waste my time.


Can someone in a position with some authority tell this guy to shut up? He's point black admitting that he's trolling me for no good reason.

[Frankie_Says_Relax]

I just like busting your balls lol.:onfire:

It's far too early in the morning for people to be rustling my jimmies with bullshit like this.

I have zero appreciation for antagonizing trolls of the "ball-busting" variety and even less for people who revel in following users from message board to message board to board to keep up with old vendettas.

If you two want to debate the legality of "rom hacks" and "repro carts" of the 8/16 bit era please do so in a civil manner or do not do so at all.

There are plenty of old threads in Classic Gaming where people have debated the topic not resorted to petty personal attacks in the progress.

And yes, there are threads on the subject where people failed to act like reasonable adults as well, but you don't see those users here any more.

Play nice.

[Daltone]

When we get to the point of having unsanctioned but free distribution of a copyrighted work, it still represents a potential form of competition against that copyright holder. The reason for banning these illegal sales is not vengeance against the illegal copyist for making a profit, but rather the negative consequence on the copyright holder and the impact on their ability to sell their work, which would have broader problems for society. So this reasoning holds whether the copy is made with or without profit, and it is further extended by the thought that there is a probability some legitimate sales would be lost due to competition with the unsanctioned channel of release.

The above is correct.

Let's think about games (in a really simplistic fashion). A game is basically a combination of a few things - it is a brand, it is graphics, sound and code to make it all work. I am A Company and, for the sake of simplicity, I produced and distributed this game myself. It is 1993 and I have released my game on the Mega Drive. It is selling well and I am making money on the brand, graphics, sound and code that I have produced.

Time passes and the Mega Drive becomes outdated. There are no sequals to the game in this example - it's like Vectorman, fondly remembered but never really updated. I still own the brand, graphics, sound and code although I can't make any money off these because the system is no longer produced.

The Microsonybox is released and both re-released and "re-mastered" games are popular. In this example I decide to re-release the game as is using a bit of periphery code which allows the Microsonybox to emulate a Mega Drive. This means that I can reuse my original graphics, sound and code without making any major alterations. Happy days! But oh no, what's this - my game has been emulated?!

Here the path splits. We'll go for two possible avenues here, but there are loads.

Either - you take the view that the emulation of your game is keeping the brand alive, which in turn will make more people interested in paying for a rerelease. It is free advertising. Yes, you may lose a few sales as people with a low level of interest have already tried the game and may not fancy it, but people will pay to play it on their TV with zero fuss.

Or - you take the view that emulation has cut the bottom out of your potential customer base. People have played the game - why would they want to pay to play it again? You are going to have to "remaster" it with new graphics, code and sound and that is going to cost money. Is the remaster going to be enough to tempt people who have basically already played the game? Is my brand strong enough to tempt new users to the game?

No matter how you look at it sales may potentially be harmed as a result of this stuff being freely available, even if it is old and not part of a massive franchise like Final Fantasy. The point of all this copyright business is to protect the people that went to the trouble of making the thing in the first place. With mobile phones more powerful than my first few computers and digital rereleases coming from Nintendo, Sony and Microsoft there is the opportunity to start selling this stuff again.

Of course, in real life things aren't this simple. There are all sorts of exciting licensing issues, questions about who owns what and who has the rights to do what etc (Just think about Goldeneye and, until recently, System Shock 2). The point is the same though - there remains the possibility of sales being harmed and what you are doing is illegal. You can either live wih breaking the law from time to time (and invest in a fetching pirate hat like me) or live in some sort of strange denial, as some folks do.

EDIT: Now this really is basic, but it is a bit of an introduction to UK law and the Berne Convention, of which the US is a signatory - http://www.copyrightservice.co.uk/copyright/

[JSoup]

Seriously, I've got better shit to do than to address your accusations and incorrect information.

Then....don't? I swear, I'll never understand the schoolyard mentality the internet seems to have. It's not even a matter of being the bigger man or walking away while the other kids yell "FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT". Just ignore the fucker and don't click "post message".

[Xander]

Then....don't? I swear, I'll never understand the schoolyard mentality the internet seems to have. It's not even a matter of being the bigger man or walking away while the other kids yell "FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT". Just ignore the fucker and don't click "post message".

It's hard to take the high road in this case. If you and I start arguing about whatever and you make some false claims or attack me on a more personal level, I'll probably just start ignoring you. It won't cost me much, as you implied we are just a bunch of dude on the internet, in the end your opinions should not really matter to me.

But wiggy is a creator, and quite an enthusiast one. He is trying to create a small brand and make cool products. When needler attack him, he also attack wiggy's work and brand. It's natural to get emotionally invested in your work, especially when you put in so much of your time and effort. I feel it's normal that wiggy defend himself from needler's accusation. And I really think needler have no idea how hurtful it can be when someone attack your work, it may be playful to him but I doubt it is for wiggy.

[needler420]

It's hard to take the high road in this case. If you and I start arguing about whatever and you make some false claims or attack me on a more personal level, I'll probably just start ignoring you. It won't cost me much, as you implied we are just a bunch of dude on the internet, in the end your opinions should not really matter to me.

But wiggy is a creator, and quite an enthusiast one. He is trying to create a small brand and make cool products. When needler attack him, he also attack wiggy's work and brand. It's natural to get emotionally invested in your work, especially when you put in so much of your time and effort. I feel it's normal that wiggy defend himself from needler's accusation. And I really think needler have no idea how hurtful it can be when someone attack your work, it may be playful to him but I doubt it is for wiggy.

I didn't just make random attacks on him. I called him out on a illegal operation he was running that actually got him shut down on another site and his whole thread deleted. I just kept bringing it up to give it a hard time and as I said bust his balls about it. Nothing about it is an attack as you make it out to be. Nor is that a false accusation as you say. If he's offering a modding service people should be aware of his other practices which on many sites is against TOS.

He was told by other people on other forums to put me on ignore feature and ignore me and my posts. He chooses not to add me to ignore and refutes my posts instead. You make it out to be as if I am randomly picking on him when all I did was make staff aware of a situation that was going on. Same thing happened here and he got warned. I don't know where you guys gets false claims from as this actually happened.

[Daltone]

I didn't just make random attacks on him. I called him out on a illegal operation he was running that actually got him shut down on another site and his whole thread deleted. I just kept bringing it up to give it a hard time and as I said bust his balls about it. Nothing about it is an attack as you make it out to be. Nor is that a false accusation as you say. If he's offering a modding service people should be aware of his other practices which on many sites is against TOS.

Is he here saying "BUY MY HOT ROMZ".. no.
Is he here saying "Here are my pretty cool console mods" (not illegal, incidentally)? Yes.

Are you basically trying to cause trouble because of something that has happened somewhere else, and isn't happening here (as far as I have seen)? It would appear so. It doesn't matter what he does away from these boards, as far as I am aware.

[Frankie_Says_Relax]

I didn't just make random attacks on him. I called him out on a illegal operation he was running that actually got him shut down on another site and his whole thread deleted. I just kept bringing it up to give it a hard time and as I said bust his balls about it. Nothing about it is an attack as you make it out to be. Nor is that a false accusation as you say. If he's offering a modding service people should be aware of his other practices which on many sites is against TOS.

He was told by other people on other forums to put me on ignore feature and ignore me and my posts. He chooses not to add me to ignore and refutes my posts instead. You make it out to be as if I am randomly picking on him when all I did was make staff aware of a situation that was going on. Same thing happened here and he got warned. I don't know where you guys gets false claims from as this actually happened.

Needler,

We don't need you to police our forums. We're more than capable of handling that on our own.

If you suspect that anything that Wiggy is doing is in violation of our terms or policies, utilize the report feature and site administration will confer on it.

Don't bring it up in an existing thread and don't "bust balls" in an attempt to get a reaction.

If it's not clear to you already we're a community that is highly tolerant of classic cartridge repros/hacks/mods.

If that doesn't jive with your sensibilities about what's "legal" and what isn't I don't think you're going to be able to subsist here for the long-term.

[sloan]

As an aside, what is CAG?

[Frankie_Says_Relax]

As an aside, what is CAG?

The website Cheap Ass Gamer.

www.cheapassgamer.com

[Ed Oscuro]

CheapAss Gamer.

p.s. BUY MY *hot* ROMZ. tinygamecubedicknotincluded.

@ Daltone: As a response, the "free advertising" line might work for some operations, but not others. If I'm struggling to keep the doors open, every sale might make a difference, so there is no room for illegal competition. Some media are more prone to lose sales than others - if I buy a cheap knockoff cartridge of a game, I might want the real thing later. If I illegally download a digital comic, getting the exact same files as via legitimate release, it's totally on the honor system to buy it at that point. Another fine point: Emulation is not illegal competition, per se. It's a somewhat rare case where emulation is not in fact illegal, but we mustn't obscure the fact that an original copyright holder has only limited rights with respect to somebody's continued use of bought media and the contained content; it might help a media creator to be able to force people to buy a new copy, but if that wasn't a part of the original agreement (in the way a monthly fee to play an online game might be) then this alters the agreement. More importantly, people aren't required to pay again and again for content because of the same criteria behind the origin of copyright law - there is no obvious direct good to society by forcing resales of old media. (Along this same line of thought, there is also an argument which says that factoring in the diminishing economic value of future sales suggests that copyrighted terms have a rather limited practical life, beyond which there is no apparent benefit to the creator of the media, to whom highly diminished benefits in the far future do not represent a compelling reason to create the work, and to this you can add the observation that attempts to "milk" a work for all time can and do sometimes divert media authors from more fruitful use of their time).

The copyright holder can sell new copies of media at whatever price they like, refuse to discount the price for the media for the entirety of the copyright's validity, and even create more expensive reissues (you have to wonder whether there is some point at which people will put their foot down and say that, despite the good to the copyright holder from reissuing media, it will be bad overall and so this right is not absolute - for example, if a company decided the market would sustain a re-release of an old game - the people who would be harmed by such a transaction, i.e. current media holders, could theoretically force a law through to limit the window of media reissue).

Of course, talking about many modern media releases out today changes things considerably. When you "buy" something that can only be remotely accessed, more often than not you're only getting a limited license to access a system which includes access to the particular media you wanted. When the plug is pulled you have no recourse. This is going to cause an amazing destruction of a large part of the cultural heritage of the people in the future, but perhaps it wasn't realistic to expect we could get something otherwise given the ephemeral nature of such media.

[Daltone]

CheapAss Gamer.

p.s. BUY MY *hot* ROMZ. tinygamecubedicknotincluded.

@ Daltone: lotsastuff

Bah. I just wrote a massive post then lost it. The key points

- interesting.

- I think it is important to deal with IP law by separating it in to two sections. There is "this is the letter of the law", which in the UK is set by statue and 'interpreted' by case law . Then there is the wider 'society' issues. The starting point is that making and distributing copies of software within the 70 year limitation iod is illegal where you don't have the right to do so. The wider society issue is a complex mishmash of morals and business. Then you are in to politics, which is a world apart.


- the 'free advertising' is incredibly simplistic, but I've seen that argument before. It was the first thing that popped to mind.

- I am not pro or anti reproductions etc. They happen. I see them as a bit naughty but who cares really? There is the potential for some harm, but it is so small I am not sure that it bothers me on a personal level.

- Digital Downloads. Times they are a changing. I like how easy it makes to get things, I don't like the thought of, say, steam dying a death. GOG is my preferred supplier though, at least I can back them all up and they don't require connections to Steam's server to play.

- a tinygamecubedick .. I can only imagine that it would be an off putting shade of purple and ominously knobbly. You know, like you'd probably want to get it checked out.

[Ed Oscuro]

- I think it is important to deal with IP law by separating it in to two sections. There is "this is the letter of the law", which in the UK is set by statue and 'interpreted' by case law . Then there is the wider 'society' issues. The starting point is that making and distributing copies of software within the 70 year limitation iod is illegal where you don't have the right to do so. The wider society issue is a complex mishmash of morals and business. Then you are in to politics, which is a world apart.
Yes. I'm writing that post above mainly from the standpoint of the "ethics of law," it should be pretty clear that at points I'm diverging from "what the law says." Actually, the argument I mentioned from economists that diminishing returns on copyright royalties suggests there is a practical outer limit to the useful length of the copyright term isn't the most radical proposal out there - some suggest abolishing it altogether (http://news.wustl.edu/news/Pages/13656.aspx).

As for the GameCube thing, I was just riffing on Snesguy666's post here (http://www.digitpress.com/forum/showthread.php?144061-Is-anybody-playing-the-Dolphin-Emulator-%28Wii-GCN%29). Actually I had forgotten he actually wrote "disks" right...err nevermind now

[JSoup]

Not arguing the point, just contributing an interesting story as a counter point:

http://www.quartertothree.com/game-talk/showthread.php?42663-Venting-my-frustrations-with-PC-game-dev

Sorry to bump an old topic, but I recalled this post when I read the following article. A study was performed and it suggests that piracy isn't effecting the industry as much as people think:

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/124053-Study-Suggests-Game-Piracy-May-Be-An-Exaggerated-Threat

[Bojay1997]

Sorry to bump an old topic, but I recalled this post when I read the following article. A study was performed and it suggests that piracy isn't effecting the industry as much as people think:

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/124053-Study-Suggests-Game-Piracy-May-Be-An-Exaggerated-Threat

Not really much of an article or analysis there. All it says is that piracy might not be as prevalent as people might think. Personally, I think 967K copies of a game being pirated is pretty significant. Even if less than 10% of those users would have bought the game had piracy not been an option, that's 96K copies or several million dollars in revenue that the publisher and developer lost out on and that's just one specific game and doesn't count the hundreds of others each year that are pirated and widely redistributed.

[TheRetroVideoGameAddict]

I would never buy or collect something I don't actively enjoy, that would be a monumental waste of money! I play certain consoles and games fairly regularly and others are a once a year (or every other) affair, but yeah, for the most part I play my entire collection of video games. I do have some games that I needed to flesh out a series or to satisfy the completionist tendencies of mine that I don't actively play, but they aren't in great numbers and I'll still try them out once in a while to see if my thoughts on them are the same.

[wiggyx]

Not really much of an article or analysis there. All it says is that piracy might not be as prevalent as people might think. Personally, I think 967K copies of a game being pirated is pretty significant. Even if less than 10% of those users would have bought the game had piracy not been an option, that's 96K copies or several million dollars in revenue that the publisher and developer lost out on and that's just one specific game and doesn't count the hundreds of others each year that are pirated and widely redistributed.

You didn't read the PDF, did you?

[Bojay1997]

You didn't read the PDF, did you?

Actually, I did. The PDF doesn't even seem to really support the claim the PC Gamer article cited by Escapist does that piracy isn't the huge problem some people claim. All the study revealed is that higher rated games tend to be pirated more and that certain genres of games are pirated more than others. The study drew no conclusions about whether piracy is a problem or not and the study conceded that no conclusions were reached about how many of those pirated copies resulted in lost sales. Please, feel free to tell me what I missed here.