Curious about how DP feels about restoration projects on classic games

[Aussie2B]

No needler it really is a case of censorship, it's withholding information for personal selfish reasons. As Dantes said above, dissing the collector mentality (that goes too far) seems fair as I think of things as a two way street and not so much in absolutes. I know people will have any potential motive for the use of the information, that's a given and foolish to think otherwise. I just don't like screwing good people just because of some random assholes. It's a larger thought beyond labels into just general retarded laws that go on the state or national books because of a few screw balls that mess it up for everyone else taking more and more freedoms away.

Just because somebody asks a question doesn't mean anyone is obligated to answer it. Hell, nobody is even required to read it. I mean, if somebody makes a topic called "What's your favorite video game?" and I think "Eh, who cares" and skip past it, am I some selfish jerk withholding information just because I didn't feel like answering? Nobody has any "right" to get their questions answered on a message board, and nobody is denied any "freedoms" or getting "screwed" if they don't get any responses. People who answer questions are doing so just because they feel like it or out of the kindness of their hearts, and the topic creator should feel fortunate to get those answers, not entitled.

[Pikointeractive]

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the first part of your post where you called me a troll and recommended that my comments be ignored, and now claim you didn't agree with Tanooki when you said it. It's like you don't even read your own posts.

After that you gave the suggestion to mark the labels as reproductions, which was already rejected on the first page and is why people are complaining about all this. Nobody cares about new labels marked as reproductions, that's not the issue.

And Still I don't think you read that one.


Is funny how there is always a guy that "tries to find the motives of a thread" but it is just trying to troll, crap on, or pick a fight. My recommendation is not paying attention to posts that do not show a well educated point that attempts to bring a solution or some kind of a positive closure to the topic.

To make everyone happy, you can do repro labels with small "reproduction Label" print so you don't get pointed like you are trying to scam and bootleg. Thanks to the big amount of ebay/paypal scams, usually people get defensive when making transaction, so in order to avoid any problem, you should add that small print. Your label will still look nice and would not be considered by many as an attempt to bootleg. Another recommendation, you should NEVER take off the original label, no matter how bad it is, you should use a donor cart of a crappy game you do not like to "reconstruct" your game.

I've sold a couple of times SNES games with a repro label (which had the "reproduction label" print on the design) and I included both the original beat up shell, and the new reproduced one; the shell was somewhat different than the original SNES shells, and it still sold for a very good price.

[Buyatari]

To make everyone happy, you can do repro labels with small "reproduction Label" print so you don't get pointed like you are trying to scam and bootleg. Thanks to the big amount of ebay/paypal scams, usually people get defensive when making transaction, so in order to avoid any problem, you should add that small print. Your label will still look nice and would not be considered by many as an attempt to bootleg. Another recommendation, you should NEVER take off the original label, no matter how bad it is, you should use a donor cart of a crappy game you do not like to "reconstruct" your game.

Showing the bad guy how to make a near identical fake label and then asking him to be sure to add text to the label so as not to confuse anyone is not going to be effective.

If you are good at making these labels and want to help then when a 1 post count newbie asks offer to make it for him and add the text yourself. Don't show him how to do it or worse yet don't post it for everyone to see. The thread we are talking about is not some seasoned well known respected collector. It is an unknown guy with a single post. 1st post ever on the forums and he wants to know how to make near identical labels for SNES games which happen to be the games collectors are seeing the most fakes with right now.

[Pikointeractive]

Showing the bad guy how to make a near identical fake label and then asking him to be sure to add text to the label so as not to confuse anyone is not going to be effective.

If you are good at making these labels and want to help then when a 1 post count newbie asks offer to make it for him and add the text yourself. Don't show him how to do it or worse yet don't post it for everyone to see. The thread we are talking about is not some seasoned well known respected collector. It is an unknown guy with a single post. 1st post ever on the forums and he wants to know how to make near identical labels for SNES games which happen to be the games collectors are seeing the most fakes with right now.

Please explain to me how I'm showing the bad guy how to make a label?

What are the steps I showed him?

If you think that by me saying "put a reproduction label print on your fake label" is going to magically print/cut a near perfect label with a high quality design and the right materials.

PLEASE, think again!

[Buyatari]

Please explain to me how I'm showing the bad guy how to make a label?


Well that is the topic we are discussing.

[wiggyx]

You could be one of those people selling retail repros on ebay and most people would never know. Between your custom modding work and the fact that you have pretty good gear does leave potential for fraud. You have the ability to do damage if you wanted. Your views on how you expect people to be able to tell and how that you don't think it's your responsibility to inform potential buyers that the label is a repro that you changed is what scares me. Scammers normally stay in the shadows but they don't come out saying their making retail reproductions either.

Reproducing manufacturer quality is getting easier and easier to do on a amateur level and gets less expensive.

I never said a single thing about selling a cartridge with a reproduction label, nor did I utter a word about how I would go about doing so if I were to sell such a thing (I don't, and have no plans on doing so).

Like I said, any repro labels I make are for myself. If one of my games with a repro label ends up on the market some day way off in the future, then so be it. It is by no means something I do in order to deceive anyone or as a way turn a profit.

Stop misinterpreting what I say.

[Tanooki]

Just because somebody asks a question doesn't mean anyone is obligated to answer it. Hell, nobody is even required to read it. I mean, if somebody makes a topic called "What's your favorite video game?" and I think "Eh, who cares" and skip past it, am I some selfish jerk withholding information just because I didn't feel like answering? Nobody has any "right" to get their questions answered on a message board, and nobody is denied any "freedoms" or getting "screwed" if they don't get any responses. People who answer questions are doing so just because they feel like it or out of the kindness of their hearts, and the topic creator should feel fortunate to get those answers, not entitled.

The point I originally was making was you would be the jerk if someone asked for help and you let loose the attack dogs. If you chose to just go 'eh who cares' and ignored it, then no, you're minding mouth and choosing to show respect and keeping it to yourself. The problem I was seeing was attack dog behavior when the subject came up.


Piko your idea is nice in theory, but someone looking to defraud wouldn't be so happy to add an added sticker or something saying 'game is real, sticker is a reprint' because they'd just see it as taking money from their pocket.



Wiggy I agree with you entirely on that post, problem is that's going to piss off people who feel they have a stake in your video game on the off chance it goes into the wild.

[Buyatari]

I never said a single thing about selling a cartridge with a reproduction label, nor did I utter a word about how I would go about doing so if I were to sell such a thing (I don't, and have no plans on doing so).

Like I said, any repro labels I make are for myself. If one of my games with a repro label ends up on the market some day way off in the future, then so be it. It is by no means something I do in order to deceive anyone or as a way turn a profit.

Stop misinterpreting what I say.

If you guys would stay on topic then no one would misunderstand what you are talking about.

This topic is about posting information on the gaming forums that can be used by "the bad guy" to make as identical to retail labels as possible. If you make your own for your own personal use that is great but we aren't talking about that.

This is the thread we are taking about.
http://www.nintendoage.com/forum/messageview.cfm?catid=5&threadid=101897

[Gameguy]

And Still I don't think you read that one.
Yes, you suggested putting a disclaimer on the label. You suggested this after it was already suggested by someone else and rejected by Tanooki. Tanooki is not willing to do that under any circumstance, he wants to make a 100% perfect label with no disclamier at all. Are you proud of suggesting an idea that was already suggested and dismissed? Are you happy I acknowledged your suggestion? Seriously, what's your point?

As I said in my last post; Nobody cares about new labels marked as reproductions, that's not the issue. I put this again because I don't think you read it. I don't think you read most of the posts in this thread, either that or you have poor reading comprehension.



Well that is the topic we are discussing.
I'm pretty sure he's not understanding what's going on in this thread.

[wiggyx]

The point I originally was making was you would be the jerk if someone asked for help and you let loose the attack dogs. If you chose to just go 'eh who cares' and ignored it, then no, you're minding mouth and choosing to show respect and keeping it to yourself. The problem I was seeing was attack dog behavior when the subject came up.


Piko your idea is nice in theory, but someone looking to defraud wouldn't be so happy to add an added sticker or something saying 'game is real, sticker is a reprint' because they'd just see it as taking money from their pocket.



Wiggy I agree with you entirely on that post, problem is that's going to piss off people who feel they have a stake in your video game on the off chance it goes into the wild.

Anyone else who feels that they have a stake in MY collection can suck it, plain and simple.


If you guys would stay on topic then no one would misunderstand what you are talking about.

This topic is about posting information on the gaming forums that can be used by "the bad guy" to make as identical to retail labels as possible. If you make your own for your own personal use that is great but we aren't talking about that.

This is the thread we are taking about.
http://www.nintendoage.com/forum/messageview.cfm?catid=5&threadid=101897

Sorry, I don't feel that I've veered off topic.

[Aussie2B]

The point I originally was making was you would be the jerk if someone asked for help and you let loose the attack dogs. If you chose to just go 'eh who cares' and ignored it, then no, you're minding mouth and choosing to show respect and keeping it to yourself. The problem I was seeing was attack dog behavior when the subject came up.

Well, to be frank, this is Digital Press, not Nintendo Age. Nobody here cares about what kind of drama is going on over there or if their members are behaving badly. I'm sure they have rules against trolling/flaming like most boards, so I'm sure that if they felt someone crossed the line past expressing a negative opinion and into the territory of frowned upon behavior, they'd deal with it however their rules apply. Message boards are privately-owned services, and the owners can deny service to whomever they want for whatever reason they want. Likewise, they can allow whatever they want, even if you personally don't think they should. If you don't like it, use a different board.

But, again, nobody here cares about what's going on over there, and, really, it's bad form to bring another board's drama here, especially given that Nintendo Age doesn't exactly have the greatest reputation on this site and discussion of it in the past has, at times, resulted in conflict.

[Pikointeractive]

Yes, you suggested putting a disclaimer on the label. You suggested this after it was already suggested by someone else and rejected by Tanooki. Tanooki is not willing to do that under any circumstance, he wants to make a 100% perfect label with no disclamier at all. Are you proud of suggesting an idea that was already suggested and dismissed? Are you happy I acknowledged your suggestion? Seriously, what's your point?

As I said in my last post; Nobody cares about new labels marked as reproductions, that's not the issue. I put this again because I don't think you read it. I don't think you read most of the posts in this thread, either that or you have poor reading comprehension.



I'm pretty sure he's not understanding what's going on in this thread.

Bahh, I was getting confused, now I feel like an ass.

[Tanooki]

Anyone else who feels that they have a stake in MY collection can suck it, plain and simple.

Sorry, I don't feel that I've veered off topic.

That's entirely my feeling on it, just didn't put it into one sweet simple sentence. If I want to do something and I own it, I'll do it, and if I want to ask for assistance in getting an image or materials I should feel free to do so without breaking out the attack dogs. It goes back to the whole, got nothing nice to say, say nothing at all. If they don't like it, clam up, as if no one responds no info is out there, but to get vicious on people is just petty.



Well, to be frank, this is Digital Press, not Nintendo Age. Nobody here cares about what kind of drama is going on over there or if their members are behaving badly. I'm sure they have rules against trolling/flaming like most boards, so I'm sure that if they felt someone crossed the line past expressing a negative opinion and into the territory of frowned upon behavior, they'd deal with it however their rules apply. Message boards are privately-owned services, and the owners can deny service to whomever they want for whatever reason they want. Likewise, they can allow whatever they want, even if you personally don't think they should. If you don't like it, use a different board.

But, again, nobody here cares about what's going on over there, and, really, it's bad form to bring another board's drama here, especially given that Nintendo Age doesn't exactly have the greatest reputation on this site and discussion of it in the past has, at times, resulted in conflict.

And frankly that's why I came here instead of just lurking for a lot of years off and on because the lack of pushy drama. But I did want to see how people felt about stuff like that is all plain and simple. They do have flaming/trolling rules but they're selective/soft about enforcement considering the stuff that flies by daily. I've heard there was drama between the sites but never dug into it as it's just whiny board politics, but having heard it I figured it probably was a disagreement on how things are looked at. I know they as a site can deny service for whatever rule is on the book just as DP can too, but the issue at hand has dragged on for years and well before a rule was set over discussion on what this topic was around initially. I like both sites, they do have their pros and cons. I see this as more of an open minded even split if not a bit more gamer oriented site, there it's a larger group with much more information but it caters to the collector and their whims more even if those whims are controlling.

[bust3dstr8]

I don't see how repro labels would hurt the collecting community. Anyone buying a pricey or rare game should just ask for
pics of the pcb. If the seller doesn't want to take the 1 minute to remove the cover...fuckem, they lose a sale.

[wiggyx]

^^^ The concern is whether the label is original, not just the guts.


That's entirely my feeling on it, just didn't put it into one sweet simple sentence. If I want to do something and I own it, I'll do it, and if I want to ask for assistance in getting an image or materials I should feel free to do so without breaking out the attack dogs. It goes back to the whole, got nothing nice to say, say nothing at all. If they don't like it, clam up, as if no one responds no info is out there, but to get vicious on people is just petty.

Agreed, 110%. But, that's how things are done over on NA. It's like the elitist country club of game forums IMO; somewhat exclusive and full of rules that just make them seem, well, elitist.

This makes me want to do a write-up. Maybe once I get caught up with the other half dozen or so write-ups that I need to get done first...

[skaar]

^^^ The concern is whether the label is original, not just the guts.



Agreed, 110%. But, that's how things are done over on NA. It's like the elitist country club of game forums IMO; somewhat exclusive and full of rules that just make them seem, well, elitist.

This makes me want to do a write-up. Maybe once I get caught up with the other half dozen or so write-ups that I need to get done first...

http://i.imgur.com/eoipcRm.jpg

1200dpi anyone?

[wiggyx]

http://i.imgur.com/eoipcRm.jpg

1200dpi anyone?

Huh? I'm seeing a big, fat 72dpi.

[Frankie_Says_Relax]

I get that a major point of frustration is the addition of counterfeit goods into the pool of product in the wild and how that will affect the non-expert collectors out there and I don't disagree that that is problematic.

However I was kind of under the impression that most big-money personal-collection-building, completest collectors in our community and in neighboring ones should and would be able to determine a fake up close if not be able to discern the mere possibility via circumstances & provenance from a figurative distance.

Aren't most of those who are REALLY serious about all of this capable of knowing how to spot a fake? That's kind of the point of being an aficionado.

[skaar]

Huh? I'm seeing a big, fat 72dpi.

1200dpi on my ebay shop.

[Gameguy]

Aren't most of those who are REALLY serious about all of this capable of knowing how to spot a fake?
In person yes, not through auction pics or through a forum trade. I'd rather not have to examine every label under a microscope just to be sure it's not a fake before buying it. I miss the days when bootlegs were obvious and easy to spot.


As for the argument of car restorations, I'd rather bring up vintage bicycle restorations as I'm more into that hobby than cars. Here's a link to a shop that specializes in restoring bikes.
http://www.cyclart.com/storyaccurate.html


After all the effort to make it "original", I usually put a CyclArt decal on it to prove it's not. Conflicted? Shameless self-promotion? Pride? (Well, that too.) Just seems ethical to me. Don't lecture me about how car restorers don't do it. The ethics of that industry are not a model to emulate. Consider... Fewer red herrings for future experts. A link to a paper trail on the bike's history. Sometimes the frame has been modified, or extensively repaired. (though I've never done a "show only - unsafe to ride" piece.) A remedy for manufacturers, paranoid about liability and trademark control, who threaten suit for "misrepresenting" old frames as new ones. A quality assurance mark by a reputable company will make the frame easier to sell.
Even after repainting the frame he puts a decal on so nobody would confuse it as original.

[Frankie_Says_Relax]

In person yes, not through auction pics or through a forum trade. I'd rather not have to examine every label under a microscope just to be sure it's not a fake before buying it. I miss the days when bootlegs were obvious and easy to spot.

With the means and methods more commonly available to produce authentic looking cart labels, there will just be a growing onus on sellers to produce close-up, high resolution photos (up to and including circuit boards) proving authenticity when selling high-value games.

If we know that people are inclined to make reproduction things like Stadium Events carts, we shouldn't be buying ones in blind purchases with no provenance or at auction where the only photo is a five feet above the cartridge, blurry, 72DPI photo.

Counterfeiting is an act as old as the concept of "valuable items" and if this hobby continues to have $20,000 items in the public eye, this is what we will always have to contend with.

Be smart, buy smart. That's all you can really do at this point.

[o.pwuaioc]

I never said a single thing about selling a cartridge with a reproduction label, nor did I utter a word about how I would go about doing so if I were to sell such a thing (I don't, and have no plans on doing so).

Like I said, any repro labels I make are for myself. If one of my games with a repro label ends up on the market some day way off in the future, then so be it. It is by no means something I do in order to deceive anyone or as a way turn a profit.

Stop misinterpreting what I say.

Just gotta keep ignoring the trolls, wiggyx.

[wiggyx]

What Frankie said.

Lets face it, the days of buying pricey games damn near blind (I.e. via shitty-ass eBay pics) will pass for any of us with half a brain. Spending 1K+ on a game with such weak documentation is a piss-poor plan as it is, and will become an even poorer idea as prices climb higher and higher and fakes/repros/etc become more and more prevelant (which is bond to happen where there's a fast buck to be made). Unfortunately the market is young, and the buyers naive, so I'm sure there are plenty of folks who will be duped before they get wise and start demanding more of sellers and stop spending so carelessly.

[Tanooki]

^^^ The concern is whether the label is original, not just the guts.



Agreed, 110%. But, that's how things are done over on NA. It's like the elitist country club of game forums IMO; somewhat exclusive and full of rules that just make them seem, well, elitist.

This makes me want to do a write-up. Maybe once I get caught up with the other half dozen or so write-ups that I need to get done first...

Makes sense to me and I'd like a lot to see your write up so let me know if you do one as I don't want to miss it as I'm curious about what you think.


Frankie very well said. The days of the blind purchase are over and the days of asking questions and getting higher resolution pictures that are clear is what is needed now. Over at NA a lot of fakes are posted and you'll see good or bad labels and then fake boards from glop tops to socketed jobs that while pricy when you have an Earthbound at that rate it's worth it. It's the buyers job to be aware if it's games or whatever else. If you're going to drop a few benjamins or more on something, unless you're half of the dumb and dumber act you ask things and want to see things too.

[Polygon]

Makes sense to me and I'd like a lot to see your write up so let me know if you do one as I don't want to miss it as I'm curious about what you think.

I would as well.