Curious about how DP feels about restoration projects on classic games

[Tanooki]

I know some of you know I use NA and some are members of both so that said it has been made a rule there now you can't discuss restoration/replacement parts (labels, boxes, manuals) there as it could earn a ban and that's something to respect them going forward with so this isn't an anti-NA thread.

With that, what are peoples feelings on restoration stuff for old games? Do people feel you just do your own thing and it's your property? Are you the internet police who will go after someone, block, or twist their arm to clearly mark such things as fakes?


Personally I'm fine with it. I find it rude and silly to attack someone for doing stuff to their property as if games are special and they're communally owned like some socialist project. I also find it interesting that somehow games should have a special elite status to some not wanting stuff like this. Car analogies often come up and they seem fairly fair considering how expensive those get. You don't see a 1967 Mustang with a new paint job having a nice cherry red coat on it and then in white ink on every panel of metal that was restored having 'restoration' inked into it. So why should a game that's 100% legit other than a fubar label have to be called a restoration and be inked as such in an ugly fashion on the new label or have one that's outright different? Wouldn't this also be misleading having restoration on it when the game board and shell aren't to someone less into things. Also as with any other hobby from stamps to cars you get fakes, but when you have restorations people disclose this stuff, and in the cases some people don't, isn't it the consumers job to practice due diligence and ask questions instead of restricting legitimate people with legitimate reasons? It seems selfish.

I'm curious how people feel about that at this site as old as it is with the history and shop behind it. Also is it even in the rules here doing such things for others that it could get you banned as I didn't see it in the faq area.

[skaar]

I'm still shocked how much people care about pieces of wood, glass, metal and plastic and how willing they are to spew rage and indignation onto the internet.

Enjoy the nostalgia, pass on your happiness to others and just generally have a good time. Or talk to someone about it, because damn.

Peace, love, flowers and Insert Coin.

http://i.imgur.com/xEsdvWU.jpg

[Xander]

I think the main concern will always be with having non-genuine game and accessories ending up on the market that is not labelled as such. Yes it is your own property and if you have for example a damaged label, it's normal that you might want to take steps to fix and improve your property. But we all know there is a good chance this game might end up back on the market at some point, and I think this is what people feel uncomfortable with. What if when it gets sold the person forget to mention some parts are not genuine?

At this point you wonder where it will end. What will stop someone from making reproductions of Little Samson, printing his own professional looking label and sell the game as genuine? I think people fear that if we are not cautious with the subject of restoration we might reach the point where it will become more and more commonplace and in the end you will have to doubt everything you come across and start asking for picture opened cart with PCB showing.

TL;DR: Slippery slope.

[Tanooki]

I think the main concern will always be with having non-genuine game and accessories ending up on the market that is not labelled as such. Yes it is your own property and if you have for example a damaged label, it's normal that you might want to take steps to fix and improve your property. But we all know there is a good chance this game might end up back on the market at some point, and I think this is what people feel uncomfortable with. What if when it gets sold the person forget to mention some parts are not genuine?

At this point you wonder where it will end. What will stop someone from making reproductions of Little Samson, printing his own professional looking label and sell the game as genuine? I think people fear that if we are not cautious with the subject of restoration we might reach the point where it will become more and more commonplace and in the end you will have to doubt everything you come across and start asking for picture opened cart with PCB showing.

TL;DR: Slippery slope.

Oh no I agree that is a concern, but that's why I mentioned due diligence on the perspective buyers part. Comics and old books get restored pages, backing, bindings, covers, but they don't get tattooed as 'repro' but you get certs, documentation, receipts, and an honest owner would pass this info onto the next possible buyer. That's why you can see a comic or book with no cover worth one amount(cheap), a restored one (fixed binding we'll say) and it's like 1/2 to 2/3 the value between there and, an original that isn't messed up.

The idea to me is that it's not the job of a select group of people to smear and attack someone seeking repairs and/or help. That's why that saying 'buyer beware' is out there a you need to think for yourself, not just attack anyone attempting to work on their own stuff they rightfully own as if their property is socialist community property. I know the fear is real, but telling people what to do with their own goods I find far more offensive.

[Rickstilwell1]

Personally I just figure if I run into a counterfeit items I can get a refund from whoever sells them to me. If you can't tell a fake from real yourself, you wouldn't be as hardcore of a collector you say you are.

[skaar]

I do have to say I take severe exception to people selling reproduction cartridges of unreleased or hacked games for profit. (since that seems to be where this discussion is going)

Apparently this is acceptable to the majority of people despite being outright piracy.

Flashcarts and the like I have no issue with because while they can be used as tools for piracy, the usage of the device is up to the purchaser. When you've burned a downloaded/stolen (and let's face it the majority of these proto/unreleased games were outright stolen from gaming magazines and such) and sold it for profit you are no different than the guy selling burned copies of The Avengers on the street. You just get to hide behind nostalgia to excuse your crimes.

To the original point of the thread (unless I've missed it completely) when you own your own cabinet you can do whatever the hell you want to it - it's yours. Pee on it, paint it neon, turn it into a fish tank. If it's a game I would have liked to own myself at some point I'm sad to see it defaced/damaged, but c'est la vie.

[Tanooki]

Well said rick, exactly why I said due diligence.

Skaar I'm not going to lie I do have Starfox 2, but that said I agree with you entirely too, especially on hacks and in particular translation hacks. Translations just bug me because you're effectively stealing not just the original game, but also someone elses 100s of hours of man hours put into say doing FF5 or Sailor Moon Another Story for SFC into english and I'm sure every one of those compensates the translator amateur too for their time. The real fact is though all reproductions are warez, cut and dry warez. The fact multiple sites, even this one and NA seem to not care and gloss over it entirely but heaven forbid linking up a ROM from off site. It's fine to peddle warez in a nice wrapper that works on real hardware, but dare link up a rom and your ass is grass which is hypocritical to me entirely but that is an entirely different discussion than replacing labels on a cart.


Here's a thought to advance the whole restoration thing. What if I knew a site that sold sticker paper in bulk that if you get the right style and find the right printer to make a copy label it in theory could come off very close in quality to a non-laminate glossy paper sticker midlife SNES and later stuff through N64 and beyond have used. Would that start a shit storm or be appreciated?

[skaar]

I'd be quite happy if someone started selling printed labels of games so I could restore my carts. Provided it charged enough to make a reasonable profit over operating costs, this would be a valuable service to the retrogaming community who just wants their games to look nice.

NA is paranoid about market prices and keeping values high to justify the money they've poured into the hobby.

[Polygon]

Since I'm not collecting games as an investment, I love the idea of replacement parts. Especially reproduction labels, boxes, and manuals. I like having complete games as it appeals to might slightly OCD side. I don't give a crap if they're original or not. I just like to have them and in really nice condition. The prices these days for complete games, especially for Nintendo systems, is out of hand. I can understand the concern of these reproduction parts finding their way into the market and people being sold these items as original, and paying a pretty penny for them, thinking so. This is nothing new, it happens in ALL collectors markets. Hell, it's already happening in gaming. I see it all the time on eBay with manuals and cover art.

Regardless, I welcome it. I could complete all my games with nice boxes and manuals and that would make me very happy. I won't pay the high price as if they were original, but I'm happy to pay for them for the right price.

[Tanooki]

True people passing off repros on ebay is out of hand and disgusting what they go for, no argument there.

I was tipped off last year by one of the large repro makers to a paper house online with a particular type of sticker paper they have that works to make a solid label of the later era kind for the SNES stuff which bleeds into the cheapo ones the GBC, GBA and N64 have too. If you want to seal it, the best so far would be buying clear packing tape from a spot like Office Depot and layering it over the print out before cutting it.

I wasn't kidding when I said I know a way, but I just don't want to get stuck with a minimum order of like a 100 sheets. I've got 2 games, technically 3 I'd have done up and that's it and that could all fit to one sheet given no screw ups. A key thing is when you get the paper you get a laser printer blend made for that kind, not the cheap crap for home user deskjet type paper and then take it to an office depot or like store and have them use the appropriate printer.

Now I don't know what it would cost to have a local store print it, perhaps a couple bucks? The pack of 100 sheets would be around $40. You do the math, I think you could probably do a label for $5 plus shipping?

[skaar]

There's this weird paranoia/protectionism about label scans and reproduction art out there - but I hear there are repositories of high res scans.

I wonder what interest would be in a "complete set" print run of all boxes and labels for a system for a set fee? The uncut sheets of labels would make some wicked game room wallpaper :)

[Flam]

I do have to say I take severe exception to people selling reproduction cartridges of unreleased or hacked games for profit.

So should I fell guilty about my Mr. Gimmick! repro or not? I'm confused. :|

[skaar]

So should I fell guilty about my Mr. Gimmick! repro or not? I'm confused. :|

You shouldn't be asking some random asshole on the internet if you should feel guilty or not. You should form your own opinion and make decisions based on your own morality and conscience.

[Aussie2B]

Well, I don't really know what exactly you mean by "restoration" here. If somebody is making fan-made reproductions of labels, boxes, manuals, whatever and then trying to sell the game as the real thing to me, that I wouldn't appreciate. If they're doing it just for their own sake and don't intend to sell later and dupe anybody, knock your socks off. Now, if you're talking super anal collectors who would be bothered if I, say, replace a cracked part of a generic jewel case with a 100% identical replacement or if I use some glue to seal down a label that's sticking up, I think they're just being stupid.

[Buyatari]

The person on NA with his post asked for tips on making the most identical to retail SNES label possible.

People can do what they want with their own items but anyone who cares about this hobby and its members at all should see the folly in that plan. If long time respected members want to share information about this in private I don't think anyone would have an issue with this. However, a public posted plan on how to create identical to retail items that will be used by someone to rip off others in the same community is just dumb.

[wiggyx]

True people passing off repros on ebay is out of hand and disgusting what they go for, no argument there.

I was tipped off last year by one of the large repro makers to a paper house online with a particular type of sticker paper they have that works to make a solid label of the later era kind for the SNES stuff which bleeds into the cheapo ones the GBC, GBA and N64 have too. If you want to seal it, the best so far would be buying clear packing tape from a spot like Office Depot and layering it over the print out before cutting it.

I wasn't kidding when I said I know a way, but I just don't want to get stuck with a minimum order of like a 100 sheets. I've got 2 games, technically 3 I'd have done up and that's it and that could all fit to one sheet given no screw ups. A key thing is when you get the paper you get a laser printer blend made for that kind, not the cheap crap for home user deskjet type paper and then take it to an office depot or like store and have them use the appropriate printer.

Now I don't know what it would cost to have a local store print it, perhaps a couple bucks? The pack of 100 sheets would be around $40. You do the math, I think you could probably do a label for $5 plus shipping?


Buy a cheap dye sublimation printer. Print cart labels. Done.

I use a sub-$100 Canon for this purpose and they look as good as, if not better than originals (much higher resolution from inkjet versus offset printing).

Laser is NOT the best option for quality, ever. It's really only good as a medium between the quality (but SLOW print rate) of inkjet, and the very high speed run rate (but with the poorest image quality) of offset printing. I.e. great for printing presentation packets and the like for a small business, not so great for high quality reproduction.



On the topic, I could scream whenever I hear this whiny crap from NA. It's my game, I'll do what I want with it. If someone mistakes my replica Mario Party 3 label for the real thing in 20 years, then too bad for them. Like in the automotive world, collectors will need to wise up and know what to look for. It's as simple as that.

[needler420]

The person on NA with his post asked for tips on making the most identical to retail SNES label possible.

People can do what they want with their own items but anyone who cares about this hobby and its members at all should see the folly in that plan. If long time respected members want to share information about this in private I don't think anyone would have an issue with this. However, a public posted plan on how to create identical to retail items that will be used by someone to rip off others in the same community is just dumb.

This. It is possible to reproduce labels past being able to tell from the human eye. You'd have to open the game up and boot it to know if it's legit.

Someone like Wiggy could pass of repros as originals and you would never even know. Only thing to go by would be his word and I'm not going to trust someone just because they say they won't do something. I don't care what someone does with their own property, but I would be hesitant about purchasing repros from someone making them that doesn't care if the people he is selling them to is aware.

If someone is bothering to make repros labels they should care because it's their responsibility to let the seller know before selling the games. Specially if the labels you use are so good you can't tell. Kind of sounds like someone with potential for fraud.

[recorderdude]

I personally strongly support the creation and sale of repro labels/carts that are clearly visible as repro labels/carts. Be it a mark, differently-colored case or cartridge or just a visible indication that it's not an original of any form.

However, I cannot support reproductions made to look EXACTLY like the originals. It's more or less that it could fall into the wrong hands, not that I think the actual creator would do anything bad with it. So yeah, IMO, if you make an exact repro, it's yours, but it's immoral it if you don't note it's a repro and, even if you do, it's not necessarily a good idea.

[PreZZ]

If you see a Megaman Wily Wars ntsc cart for 160$ on genesis and you buy it, I guess its your problem. If you are a collector, you should know about these games, and im sure everybody here would not be fooled easily by a repro that was never released in your country. As time goes by, the sticker labels are sun burnt and get damaged, personally I dont have a problem with replacing them, a sticker is a sticker! I have changed a couple of damaged ones and they look great, I dont like having a torn off label with rental stickers, I prefer removing it and replace it. Car collectors that owns classic cars from the 50's dont keep the original rusted paint job and broken parts, they fix it and do a new paint job. I see it the same way. I prefer having complete good looking games than just a former rental cart that looks like shit, I think making new nes or snes boxes and labels is a good idea. As for making complete repros like earthbound, well thats wrong.

[Gameguy]

Oh no I agree that is a concern, but that's why I mentioned due diligence on the perspective buyers part. Comics and old books get restored pages, backing, bindings, covers, but they don't get tattooed as 'repro' but you get certs, documentation, receipts, and an honest owner would pass this info onto the next possible buyer. That's why you can see a comic or book with no cover worth one amount(cheap), a restored one (fixed binding we'll say) and it's like 1/2 to 2/3 the value between there and, an original that isn't messed up.

There's a bit of a difference between pure restoration and reproduction parts. Nobody really cares about replacing capacitors or save batteries in carts, it's expected that those parts eventually wear out and need replacements. It's when you start using reproduction parts to replace things that shouldn't ever need to be replaced that people get upset. Gluing down a peeling label isn't that big of a problem, outright replacing a label might be.

As for old books, if you have a rare book missing the dust jacket and you buy a reproduction to replace it, these often are marked as a reproduction somewhere on it. Usually it's marked on the inside flap, not on the outside of the jacket. It's one of the differences between restoration work and reproduction that people care about. Restoring pages or binding isn't replacing any of the existing materials, people care about the actual paper pages and not the glue that holds them together.

Plus with restoration work with the items you described, they're done by professionals. They're not just done by anyone at their own home which can vary in quality and has no documentation available. Usually the restoration viewed positively is anything that prevents further degradation of the item being restored, such as what you described with books. Restoration for purely cosmetic reasons could be viewed either way depending on the collector. It's the same with autographs, most people view autographed books as being more valuable while others see them as defaced. I know with bicycle collectors people prefer old bicycles being fully original down to the original tires if possible, they just get restored if they're in really bad condition to preserve them.

Personally I'm against labels being replaced as it doesn't help prevent degradation of the cartridge, it's not like the cartridge would further wear out if the damaged label stays in place. To me it just makes it harder later on to find legit copies in excellent shape, most people would be buying games over the internet rather than inspecting them in person like with cars. Just going by some photos won't be enough to see the difference.

[Polygon]

If you see a Megaman Wily Wars ntsc cart for 160$ on genesis and you buy it, I guess its your problem. If you are a collector, you should know about these games, and im sure everybody here would not be fooled easily by a repro that was never released in your country. As time goes by, the sticker labels are sun burnt and get damaged, personally I dont have a problem with replacing them, a sticker is a sticker! I have changed a couple of damaged ones and they look great, I dont like having a torn off label with rental stickers, I prefer removing it and replace it. Car collectors that owns classic cars from the 50's dont keep the original rusted paint job and broken parts, they fix it and do a new paint job. I see it the same way. I prefer having complete good looking games than just a former rental cart that looks like shit, I think making new nes or snes boxes and labels is a good idea. As for making complete repros like earthbound, well thats wrong.

Exactly!

I recently bought the Wily Wars. I sure wasn't going to pay $160 for it. I ended up buying the same thing for just under $50. Also, I think you're analogy of cars is excellent. There are some of these classic cars, a Camaro for example, where you can order pretty much every part from a catalog. You could build your own brand new, reproduction Camaro. The only problem with the analogy is that with cars, it's not so easy to pass off a fake due to VINs and many other identified. But I'm completely with you on new boxes and labels. That's something I would pay decent money for.

Perhaps it's a service Wiggy could offer?

[skaar]

The person on NA with his post asked for tips on making the most identical to retail SNES label possible.

People can do what they want with their own items but anyone who cares about this hobby and its members at all should see the folly in that plan. If long time respected members want to share information about this in private I don't think anyone would have an issue with this. However, a public posted plan on how to create identical to retail items that will be used by someone to rip off others in the same community is just dumb.

So restriction of information and censorship of conversation to protect values in a hobby where prices have been skyrocketing beyond the affordable.

Gotcha.

So because some guy wants to make sure he's spending $1500 on the right piece of plastic, I'm never going to have a nice label on my copy of Mega Man.

How about we focus on what's good for the gamers and fans of the systems before the needs of those who buy and sell games for profits? I'd like to think we count too.

[Flam]

Little Samson for everyone! That's what I want.

[Flam]

You shouldn't be asking some random asshole on the internet if you should feel guilty or not. You should form your own opinion and make decisions based on your own morality and conscience.

It was a joke. I don't feel the least bit guilty.

[PapaStu]

Personally i'm of the mindset to leave things as they are. If the condition bothers you, it may be best to walk away. I left behind a number of copies of Herc's Adventures over the years because of sunburned manuals. I've walked away from a huge number of games that had trashed inserts, gouged discs and the like that I wanted to own/play.

When I am getting things, I want them original. Not something that has had a new label printed up and slapped on. If you just want the game (be it to play or just have), don't care about condition then get it and enjoy it. Buying it for your collection piece and you care about condition, then you may want to wait for something better to come along.

People have been doing touch ups/restorations on things for a LONG time. Far too many come out like this in the end.

http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/02316/painting-fresco_2316720b.jpg

[ProjectCamaro]

On the topic, I could scream whenever I hear this whiny crap from NA. It's my game, I'll do what I want with it. If someone mistakes my replica Mario Party 3 label for the real thing in 20 years, then too bad for them. Like in the automotive world, collectors will need to wise up and know what to look for. It's as simple as that.

Exactly my feelings.

[Gameguy]

You shouldn't be asking some random asshole on the internet if you should feel guilty or not. You should form your own opinion and make decisions based on your own morality and conscience.
A persons' morality and conscience is based on the views and beliefs of the society that surrounds them, so technically it would be the right thing to ask the opinion of others when making a moral decision.

Some cultures viewed cannibalism or human sacrifice as normal and acceptible behaviour, what's right and wrong is totally dependent on the views of others.

[Flam]

A persons' morality and conscience is based on the views and beliefs of the society that surrounds them ...
... what's right and wrong is totally dependent on the views of others.

I roundly reject this notion, but that is a whole other thread! I really don't want to get into debating if Hitler's Holocaust was right just based off of his views.

[Pikointeractive]

I personally strongly support the creation and sale of repro labels/carts that are clearly visible as repro labels/carts. Be it a mark, differently-colored case or cartridge or just a visible indication that it's not an original of any form.

However, I cannot support reproductions made to look EXACTLY like the originals. It's more or less that it could fall into the wrong hands, not that I think the actual creator would do anything bad with it. So yeah, IMO, if you make an exact repro, it's yours, but it's immoral it if you don't note it's a repro and, even if you do, it's not necessarily a good idea.

See, and the repro makers that sell 300+ repros a month are the ones that do their games looking like originals, and the ones that invest on shells that similar but different, etc, get 5-10 carts sold a month, Because "they are not exactly as the originals!"

Customers have some fault in there too.

Reproduction labels of imports, unreleased, protos, and hacks are Ok if they are printed without a repro mark, but US release MUST have a "reproduction label" print somewhere to mark it.

[skaar]

It was a joke. I don't feel the least bit guilty.

http://i.imgur.com/37JHdHT.jpg

[Buyatari]

I roundly reject this notion, but that is a whole other thread! I really don't want to get into debating if Hitler's Holocaust was right just based off of his views.

It would be nice to think that of humanity but history shows us that what he is saying is true. People are a sheepish lot who pretty much do whatever the other guy is doing.

Stalin put more people to death than Hitler. America killed off most of the Native Americans and took what land there was to take. We only stopped when we reached the other Ocean! Had Germany won the war and taken over the planet the way that we see those events would be different than it is today. As they say the victor writes the history books.

[Frankie_Says_Relax]

I know some of you know I use NA and some are members of both so that said it has been made a rule there now you can't discuss restoration/replacement parts (labels, boxes, manuals) there as it could earn a ban and that's something to respect them going forward with so this isn't an anti-NA thread.

With that, what are peoples feelings on restoration stuff for old games? Do people feel you just do your own thing and it's your property? Are you the internet police who will go after someone, block, or twist their arm to clearly mark such things as fakes?


Personally I'm fine with it. I find it rude and silly to attack someone for doing stuff to their property as if games are special and they're communally owned like some socialist project. I also find it interesting that somehow games should have a special elite status to some not wanting stuff like this. Car analogies often come up and they seem fairly fair considering how expensive those get. You don't see a 1967 Mustang with a new paint job having a nice cherry red coat on it and then in white ink on every panel of metal that was restored having 'restoration' inked into it. So why should a game that's 100% legit other than a fubar label have to be called a restoration and be inked as such in an ugly fashion on the new label or have one that's outright different? Wouldn't this also be misleading having restoration on it when the game board and shell aren't to someone less into things. Also as with any other hobby from stamps to cars you get fakes, but when you have restorations people disclose this stuff, and in the cases some people don't, isn't it the consumers job to practice due diligence and ask questions instead of restricting legitimate people with legitimate reasons? It seems selfish.

I'm curious how people feel about that at this site as old as it is with the history and shop behind it. Also is it even in the rules here doing such things for others that it could get you banned as I didn't see it in the faq area.

There will always be those who restore things for their personal use.

There will always be those who restore as a service for those who don't have the means, those people will typically aim to profit for their time and effort.

There will always be those who seek to deceive with fraudulent, counterfeit goods.

Plenty of grey areas and movement in this hobby for people to do any and all degrees of the above.

Of course I frown on those that intend to be deceitful in their efforts and prey on others, and I have no right to judge somebody who does something for their own personal use.

So then, the real question is - do I care about people who make reproductions and sell them?

Even dialing the discussion down to JUST that specifically there's a whole subset of grey areas to examine.


Are they producing games that were not ever comercially available (hacks, homebrews, roms of incomplete and/or cancelled games)?
Are any of the above games currently available via any commercial avenues (Virtual Console, Steam, GOG, etc.)?
Are they selling homebrew versions that were coded from the ground up by themselves BUT are for games that were created by other people (Pac-Man, Donkey Kong, Tetris, etc.)?
Are they re-producing games with methods/materials that would not feasibly be available to a novice/layman (mold-injected plastics, burned eproms, etc.)?



In most cases I'm fine with money being exchanged for the parts, labor and craft. If the product is aesthetically identical (or superior) to what would have been commercially available - there's certainly an excuse to ask for money in return for services rendered.

As far as the software itself, if it's a game that's currently available elsewhere (VC type release, classic collection on alternate modern platform, etc.) I don't see much of a reason to pay an extravagant price for a repro when you can contribute financially via legitimate avenues to the rights owners, but even then, there are areas where I would personally make exceptions (things like Tetris on 2600 or Super Mario Bros. on Genesis are unique oddities in their own right).

I totally understand that there's a lot to wrestle with ethically and morally with all of it. In most cases I'm fine with what the classic game community does with homebrews and repros. I've never seen any truly great offenses intended to cause financial harm to rights owners, in fact, in most cases I see no reason why most rights holders don't simply release their back-catalogs INCLUDING unreleased or previously region-restricted software on whatever the current gen platforms are.

So, as long as people aren't being explicitly shady, slimy exploitative fucks about what they're doing I'm fine with it all, and when something like the real Bio Force Ape comes along, I'm more than happy to have an opportunity to own it on an authentic NES cartridge.

But, that's just me. Everybody is entitled to their own opinion on the matter.

[Flam]

It would be nice to think that of humanity but history shows us that what he is saying is true. People are a sheepish lot who pretty much do whatever the other guy is doing.

Stalin put more people to death than Hitler. America killed off most of the Native Americans and took what land there was to take. We only stopped when we reached the other Ocean! Had Germany won the war and taken over the planet the way that we see those events would be different than it is today. As they say the victor writes the history books.

well he said what's right and wrong is based on the culture, that I reject. Canabalism is wrong no matter what culture you are in.

[Frankie_Says_Relax]

well he said what's right and wrong is based on the culture, that I reject. Canabalism is wrong no matter what culture you are in.

Come on people.

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b328/FrankieViturello/STAYONTOPIC_zps97bd8f40.png

[skaar]

Buyatari Godwin'd the topic rather than respond directly any further.

[bb_hood]

I kinda feel like replacing labels would be a total waste of time, the label would have to be pretty destroyed for it to be worthwhile. You would have to take off the old label then be able to make a 100% perfect copy. Anything short would not fool anyone. Lets face it, you sell something on ebay and the buyer can pretty much make up any reason to return it. You try and sell a 100+$ snes cart with a imperfect repro label without mentioning it, the buyer would know and probably be pissed.

[wiggyx]

It's alt less difficult than you'd think to pull off a 99% perfect label.

Also, why is everyone talking so much about retail repros as if they're invading the market? I have yet to find anyone or any company that offers US retail repros. I suppose there could be folks making and selling them on eBay, but I'm not seeing it.

[Gameguy]

Also, why is everyone talking so much about retail repros as if they're invading the market? I have yet to find anyone or any company that offers US retail repros. I suppose there could be folks making and selling them on eBay, but I'm not seeing it.
There was someone on here offering Stadium Events repros awhile back, complete in repro boxes with manuals. The only difference was the cart label was glossy, something anyone can replace with a more original looking one. He stopped offering it only because people complained about it.

Plus a few months ago someone listed a "complete" copy of Super Mario All-Stars+Super Mario World on ebay, in reality it was a legit cart and manual put in a repro box. The thing sold for over $200 in open auction, yet you can buy repro boxes new for $15 directly from the maker.

This type of stuff will pose a problem eventually if people put up with it, imagine people making repro boxes for Flintstones 2 or Little Samson. If the carts are still real who can really tell about the boxes unless you can compare a few directly in person? None of these would be advertised as repros by sellers, just "found this old game by chance, don't know anything about it and selling as is". Good luck getting your money back if you find one thing not correct about it.

[Buyatari]

well he said what's right and wrong is based on the culture, that I reject. Canabalism is wrong no matter what culture you are in.

Hitler is always a bad example to use for anything.

Try this one.

If you are of age in this country then sex with an individual under 18 years of age is rape and considered wrong. Who picked this number 18 and why I have no idea but most everyone across the board now makes that black and white distinction of right and wrong before and after this number. A number had to be picked but if a less mature 19 year old enages in sex that would considered ok by everyone except perhaps her father. Ok in the case of a 19 year old and not ok in the case of a 17 year old only because the law says so. This particular 19 year old may be less mature and need this protection more than the average 17 year old but no one thinks that out.

So a law is placed and almost universally the people of this country adopt it into their moral compass of right and wrong.

[Buyatari]

Buyatari Godwin'd the topic rather than respond directly any further.

There isn't much more to say about this one.

Gamers who don't care about collecting are the biggest supporters of identical copies and could care less..... err scratch that...they WOULD LOVE to see the hobby suffer from an influx of copies. It will not be a dream come true for them and instead it will backfire and create a bigger need for companies like VGA to certify even rare loose games.

Collectors know copies will happen but they don't want to provide aid to those who would rip off other collectors. To them it is really simple. You don't piss in your own pool.

[Tanooki]

Well, I don't really know what exactly you mean by "restoration" here.

What I meant basically keeping it simple. I own a game that has a label with some holes and rubbed white parts on the label, otherwise stunning shape, it's Ninja Gaiden Trilogy. What I'd like to do is ask for, and then do the work to have a like for like copy of the label done. I tried a few times over at NA to do this and the very protective types there attacked and tried to discourage me. Eventually I got in contact with a couple over PM who didn't want to get blown out and I got a lead on a label. I found it, it's a true copy down to even the right DPI (same with Lufia II of sheer luck on the same location which I also need.) Then when I've and others tried to get help on the suggestions for printing, again attacks and dissuasion aganist it (even offers for free custom made labels so I wouldn't) because it makes the game supposedly 'not real' anymore or original even though what counts (the board) is 100% solid, shell too, just a shit label. People making good copies to defraud sucks, but it's going to happen regardless just look at ebay or the need for some to use VGA.


Buy a cheap dye sublimation printer. Print cart labels. Done.

I use a sub-$100 Canon for this purpose and they look as good as, if not better than originals (much higher resolution from inkjet versus offset printing).

Laser is NOT the best option for quality, ever. It's really only good as a medium between the quality (but SLOW print rate) of inkjet, and the very high speed run rate (but with the poorest image quality) of offset printing. I.e. great for printing presentation packets and the like for a small business, not so great for high quality reproduction.

On the topic, I could scream whenever I hear this whiny crap from NA. It's my game, I'll do what I want with it. If someone mistakes my replica Mario Party 3 label for the real thing in 20 years, then too bad for them. Like in the automotive world, collectors will need to wise up and know what to look for. It's as simple as that.

On topic or not that's some solid information and I think I'll look into it. Buyatari is right it was a public question and they happen fairly often there. There's now a rule on the site that you can't help people with it including in private messages as they'll check and possibly ban you for it. I had this guy writing me about it and told them I was also signed up here if he wanted more help since I didn't want to get an admin checking my mail. I had another dude congrats me for standing up to the people who go after those wanting to do that stuff freedom of speech and all that. I'm totally with you I get so angry about it because it's like there's this asinine mentality that video games are an entirely unique collection mystique and that people shouldn't have to do their own due diligence or question asking. Instead basically video games need to be like some socialist thing where everyone has the same access to the same stuff and you make due with what you have and that you only do what people say you can do with your property and nothing else, it's like video games are community property which is crap. I tried making the car argument more times than I can remember and I get called stupid and that they're nothing at all alike, same with books and comics. But the truth is they are. When you buy a used car with a new paint job on it, do you have to take a red paint job and white ink on every painted panel saying 'reproduction' on it? Fuck no. If you sell you give receipts, papers, and the rest and tell them that, but clearly not everyone is honest, but that's the buyers problem for being stupid. It's not the job of a small minority of people online to be the video game police.

[Edmond Dantes]

A persons' morality and conscience is based on the views and beliefs of the society that surrounds them,

Because there's no such thing as thinking for oneself.

As for the topic, I say: reproduce away! Reproduce labels, reproduce boxes! Hell, reproduce the actual games, too!

I hate collector mentality, and people who think reprints and repros are terrible because they'll somehow harm their hobby (translation: "don't reprint Action Comics #1 my copy won't be worth a quarter of a million dollars anymore oh no!") Games are an art form, and art shouldn't be just for a few snobs, it should be made available for as many people as possible. Rarity is the precursor to exctinction, after all.

[Gameguy]

I tried making the car argument more times than I can remember and I get called stupid and that they're nothing at all alike, same with books and comics. But the truth is they are.
I already explained with books, reproduction parts like dust jackets are marked as reproduction on them. Video games are not the same things as those other items, each hobby has it's own set of rules created by collectors of those items. Every hobby is different.

They are your property and you can do whatever you want to them. You can smash them with a hammer if you wanted to. That doesn't mean I have to help you do it. Go and make your own labels, if nobody wants to help you with that don't bitch about it. Buy the equipment and do it yourself, nobody is obligated to help you.


Because there's no such thing as thinking for oneself.
Sure there are people who think for themselves and only for themselves, they're called psychopaths. They have no problem doing whatever they want regardless of what other people think or feel as they have no empathy for others.

Of course they're repressed by "laws" that other people decide for them, limiting what a person can and cannot do. Why can somebody be arrested for walking naked through a public park? Who decides that nudity has to be avoided? Who restricts these freedoms? Apparently not society, and apparently none of your personal views were influenced by how you were raised by your parents. Or that's what you're saying.


I hate collector mentality, and people who think reprints and repros are terrible because they'll somehow harm their hobby (translation: "don't reprint Action Comics #1 my copy won't be worth a quarter of a million dollars anymore oh no!") Games are an art form, and art shouldn't be just for a few snobs, it should be made available for as many people as possible. Rarity is the precursor to exctinction, after all.
You do realize this is a site aimed at collectors, right? Most People here actually care about collecting games and care about the condition of them which includes authenticity, if people are happy to have just have a system with a spindle of burned games just to play them they'll probably not want to be on this site. If all you care about is playing the games why bother with cartridges at all? Just buy a flash cart, they're easily available now and much cheaper than collecting a large amount of games.

Reprinting books doesn't affect value too much, these are marked as later printings so nobody will confuse them as a first printing. If someone collects first printings what determines the value is the desirability of the author and title of the book, and the size of the initial print run for the first edition. A used copy of Steven King's Carrie isn't worth much unless it's the first edition. Even the second edition is only worth a few dollars, the first edition in excellent condition is worth $800+. Reprinting is not the same as reproducing, even I have a reprint of Superman #1 but it's not even the same size as the original comic.

[Aussie2B]

Because there's no such thing as thinking for oneself.

As for the topic, I say: reproduce away! Reproduce labels, reproduce boxes! Hell, reproduce the actual games, too!

I hate collector mentality, and people who think reprints and repros are terrible because they'll somehow harm their hobby (translation: "don't reprint Action Comics #1 my copy won't be worth a quarter of a million dollars anymore oh no!") Games are an art form, and art shouldn't be just for a few snobs, it should be made available for as many people as possible. Rarity is the precursor to exctinction, after all.

If you read through this topic, or similar topics elsewhere, I think you'll realize that collectors/gamers are far more worried about getting duped into buying something that they think is official, only to get a fan-made product, and paying the going rate for an official product, when the value of a fan-made product is obviously going to be considerably less. The idea that the games they already own will lose value or rarity is a FAR lesser concern, if one at all. I mean, look at Sapphire for PC Engine CD. Fakes are a huge problem with that game, but legit copies are just as rare and valuable as ever. The fakes aren't a problem to the people who already have the real deal; they're a problem for the people who are in the process of buying and trying to get a legit copy.

[Tanooki]

Gameguy I never ever said anyone was obligated or required, anything of the sort. If you read carefully my problem was people playing the internet police and attacking over wanting to do something. The classic line of 'if you have nothing nice to say don't say it at all' fits the argument best. If you don't agree, shut up, keep it to yourself, but don't make it a point to attack and scare other people off who might or at least point you in the right direction to get the answer you need. That's entirely fair. Thankfully it appears at this site people who want to be jerks and attack someone looking for help get countered with enough supportive help to negate the self centered behaviors.

[skaar]

http://i.imgur.com/jiPMSEV.gif

[Buyatari]

What I meant basically keeping it simple. I own a game that has a label with some holes and rubbed white parts on the label, otherwise stunning shape, it's Ninja Gaiden Trilogy. What I'd like to do is ask for, and then do the work to have a like for like copy of the label done. I tried a few times over at NA to do this and the very protective types there attacked and tried to discourage me. Eventually I got in contact with a couple over PM who didn't want to get blown out and I got a lead on a label. I found it, it's a true copy down to even the right DPI (same with Lufia II of sheer luck on the same location which I also need.) Then when I've and others tried to get help on the suggestions for printing, again attacks and dissuasion aganist it (even offers for free custom made labels so I wouldn't) because it makes the game supposedly 'not real' anymore or original even though what counts (the board) is 100% solid, shell too, just a shit label. People making good copies to defraud sucks, but it's going to happen regardless just look at ebay or the need for some to use VGA.



On topic or not that's some solid information and I think I'll look into it. Buyatari is right it was a public question and they happen fairly often there. There's now a rule on the site that you can't help people with it including in private messages as they'll check and possibly ban you for it. I had this guy writing me about it and told them I was also signed up here if he wanted more help since I didn't want to get an admin checking my mail. I had another dude congrats me for standing up to the people who go after those wanting to do that stuff freedom of speech and all that. I'm totally with you I get so angry about it because it's like there's this asinine mentality that video games are an entirely unique collection mystique and that people shouldn't have to do their own due diligence or question asking. Instead basically video games need to be like some socialist thing where everyone has the same access to the same stuff and you make due with what you have and that you only do what people say you can do with your property and nothing else, it's like video games are community property which is crap. I tried making the car argument more times than I can remember and I get called stupid and that they're nothing at all alike, same with books and comics. But the truth is they are. When you buy a used car with a new paint job on it, do you have to take a red paint job and white ink on every painted panel saying 'reproduction' on it? Fuck no. If you sell you give receipts, papers, and the rest and tell them that, but clearly not everyone is honest, but that's the buyers problem for being stupid. It's not the job of a small minority of people online to be the video game police.

Information on creating identical to retail labels only benefits a counterfeiter. A collector puts no value on a copy so it is worthless to him. People can and will do this without the help of seasoned collectors but there is no reason to help it along. Why would anyone with any ties to other collectors want to promote a practice that will hurt other collectors? Makes no sense esp for something with so little value other than ripping people off.

[skaar]

Information on creating identical to retail labels only benefits a counterfeiter. A collector puts no value on a copy so it is worthless to him. People can and will do this without the help of seasoned collectors but there is no reason to help it along. Why would anyone with any ties to other collectors want to promote a practice that will hurt other collectors? Makes no sense esp for something with so little value other than ripping people off.

That's because your mind is entrenched in the buying and selling. As a collector in his situation, I'd much rather have a nicer copy of my game on my shelf.

When there are 50 copies of Stadium Events on eBay, the only people who are going to get hurt are the people who paid more than four figures for a copy. And why should I care about them?

[Buyatari]

That's because your mind is entrenched in the buying and selling. As a collector in his situation, I'd much rather have a nicer copy of my game on my shelf.

When there are 50 copies of Stadium Events on eBay, the only people who are going to get hurt are the people who paid more than four figures for a copy. And why should I care about them?

For personal use a label that is somewhat close is every bit as good as a 100% identical label.

As for the SE line, well you aren't going to hurt people with the real product with an influx of fakes. You are going to hurt new collectors and even seasoned collectors who will end up with fakes hidden in lots etc. Sure it will happen anyway but giving people hints on how to make better fakes esp a new guy with 1 single post is asking for trouble.

The best comparison I can think of would be for a seasoned autograph collector to post tips on the best way to fake a rare signature so people can have them for their "personal collections".

[Gameguy]

Gameguy I never ever said anyone was obligated or required, anything of the sort. If you read carefully my problem was people playing the internet police and attacking over wanting to do something. The classic line of 'if you have nothing nice to say don't say it at all' fits the argument best. If you don't agree, shut up, keep it to yourself, but don't make it a point to attack and scare other people off who might or at least point you in the right direction to get the answer you need. That's entirely fair. Thankfully it appears at this site people who want to be jerks and attack someone looking for help get countered with enough supportive help to negate the self centered behaviors.
It seems the whole reason why you started this thread is because you wanted to complain about Nintendo Age and other people who disagree with you. People give their opinions either for or against it explaining why they feel that way, and anyone who is against your opinion is said to be wrong by you. You then go on again about how other collectibles are treated differently(even when they're not, as with book dust jackets), and why your view is the truth that they're the same thing when they're actually different. You want to compare other types of collectibles? Try artwork, a large part of the value is having the original frame, that's equivalent to having the original shrink wrap on game boxes. Or how about furniture? If a rare piece is refinished you again lose value, sometimes more than half of the value is lost. It's not like with cars where you expect to replace tires, brake pads, and hoses and it makes no real difference.

I'm not a fan of Nintendo Age but if they choose to block the discussion on creating illegal bootlegs or tips that can be used to create possible counterfits I don't really blame them, it's a privately owned forum so they have the right if they want to. They'd rather not take a chance on getting in trouble with anyone, it's the same reason linking ROMs isn't allowed here. You're mad with Nintendo Age because you asked to have counterfit labels made that are identical to the originals and almost everyone there told you no, because they don't want to help contribute to counterfit items floating around.


With that, what are peoples feelings on restoration stuff for old games? Do people feel you just do your own thing and it's your property? Are you the internet police who will go after someone, block, or twist their arm to clearly mark such things as fakes?
This wording clearly isn't condecending or biased at all, you really want to hear both sides of the argument with equal standing. "Do you believe in a persons' right to freedom or are you a fascist?" :roll:

First you asked for opinions on the subject as a discussion, next you claim you just wanted help to get labels made and for anyone who disagrees to shut up and keep it to themselves. Just admit that you posted this topic to vent.



As for the SE line, well you aren't going to hurt people with the real product with an influx of fakes. You are going to hurt new collectors and even seasoned collectors who will end up with fakes hidden in lots etc. Sure it will happen anyway but giving people hints on how to make better fakes esp a new guy with 1 single post is asking for trouble.
You reminded me, I actually did see an NES lot on craigslist months ago and reading the end labels of the games in the pictures, there was a Stadium Events in it. Only the label looked really shitty, like a crappy inkjet printing that started to peel up at the edges. Bootlegs are out there and with better labels they'll be harder to detect.

[Tanooki]

Skaar you got it. See I don't think of it in dollar signs, other than how much I may have to sink to get a copy out of my paypal. I'm a collector of sorts still, but a collector who is a user, I play my stuff, and I like my stuff to be nice, but I don't need to be harvesting kidney's to get games. If I can get a game that's structurally great with a somewhat tacky label and pay $40 instead of $100 I'll do it. But it doesn't mean I want it to stay ugly, so if I have a means or can find a means to make my stuff look much nicer I'd like to do that, and I'd like to share that with others in my same position.

I'm not going to say I totally don't give a shit if I'm helping a counterfeiter potentially as that would be a lie, but I think it's more harmful hurting those with a legit motive attacking and denying them info too. At the same time I don't want something that's a mismatch in my pile of games or where artistic license is made and I think it's fair to have something be just right in appearance.

Gameguy you're clearly wanting to twist stuff around, pick a fight, perhaps you are a user at NA and this thread offends you knowing what started it over there. So be it, but if you're going to be pulling out fascist and other word play on things I won't be responding to anything further from you as I didn't come here to start a NA crapping thread or pick a fight. A good reason I enjoyed starting to post here is that people are more laid back and they don't jam ideals on you. I didn't ask for counterfeit labels to be made for me. I've asked for information on where or what to look for, and I've tried to help others with knowledge I've found and am comfortable with sharing.

Going off the thread that inspired it in fair disclosure that guy did register here and I'm further assisting him. At this rate I feel I'd be a hypocrite if I didn't.

[needler420]

It's alt less difficult than you'd think to pull off a 99% perfect label.

Also, why is everyone talking so much about retail repros as if they're invading the market? I have yet to find anyone or any company that offers US retail repros. I suppose there could be folks making and selling them on eBay, but I'm not seeing it.



You wouldn't know that's the whole point of a counterfeit to begin with. If anyone could just look at the label with a quick glance and know then it wouldn't be a problem.


It's like the old pokemons games. Everyone knows they are the most counterfeited games and tons of bootlegs come from China and Asia. By the time you see it the market will be in chaos just like it is with pokemon games. Old pokemon games still get by the best of us today because of how well counterfeited the games are. The reason for that is not because they are worth a big sum of money. It's because of it's high demand and high circulation along with the fact it does fetch a decent price in the retail market, making it a perfect target for bootleggers.

You could be one of those people selling retail repros on ebay and most people would never know. Between your custom modding work and the fact that you have pretty good gear does leave potential for fraud. You have the ability to do damage if you wanted. Your views on how you expect people to be able to tell and how that you don't think it's your responsibility to inform potential buyers that the label is a repro that you changed is what scares me. Scammers normally stay in the shadows but they don't come out saying their making retail reproductions either.

Reproducing manufacturer quality is getting easier and easier to do on a amateur level and gets less expensive.

[8-Bit Archeology]

[QUOTE=needler420;1964998]It's like the old pokemons games. Everyone knows they are the most counterfeited games and tons of bootlegs come from China and Asia. By the time you see it the market will be in chaos just like it is with pokemon games. Old pokemon games still get by the best of us today because of how well counterfeited the games are. The reason for that is not because they are worth a big sum of money. It's because of it's high demand and high circulation along with the fact it does fetch a decent price in the retail market, making it a perfect target for bootleggers.
QUOTE]

I recently got burned in buying Pokemon GBA titles. I never had any and a friend told me to check them out, since i am a big Link DX fan. It was a noob mistake, I zoomed on the pics and checked feedback, but still. The carts where perfectly colored, clear and the labels looked right. I did not do enough research to find out that the pokemon games have metallic ink. I never have had a metallic ink GBA title so I had no idea it existed. When I got them I got suspicious and popped one open. In "chinese" it said ROM on the chip. And the board serials where all the same [hot wheels stunt track] I am bummed that I can never trade or sell these games legally or with a clear concience. so I will keep them and play them. But it does really suck knowing I have fake games. It may not be everyones thing, but I dont flash, play emulators or buy bootlegs (on purpose). I like having authentic games I once rented as a kid. I dont care about cases and all but I dont want fake.

[Pikointeractive]

Gameguy you're clearly wanting to twist stuff around, pick a fight, perhaps you are a user at NA and this thread offends you knowing what started it over there. So be it, but if you're going to be pulling out fascist and other word play on things I won't be responding to anything further from you as I didn't come here to start a NA crapping thread or pick a fight. A good reason I enjoyed starting to post here is that people are more laid back and they don't jam ideals on you. I didn't ask for counterfeit labels to be made for me. I've asked for information on where or what to look for, and I've tried to help others with knowledge I've found and am comfortable with sharing.



Is funny how there is always a guy that "tries to find the motives of a thread" but it is just trying to troll, crap on, or pick a fight. My recommendation is not paying attention to posts that do not show a well educated point that attempts to bring a solution or some kind of a positive closure to the topic.

To make everyone happy, you can do repro labels with small "reproduction Label" print so you don't get pointed like you are trying to scam and bootleg. Thanks to the big amount of ebay/paypal scams, usually people get defensive when making transaction, so in order to avoid any problem, you should add that small print. Your label will still look nice and would not be considered by many as an attempt to bootleg. Another recommendation, you should NEVER take off the original label, no matter how bad it is, you should use a donor cart of a crappy game you do not like to "reconstruct" your game.

I've sold a couple of times SNES games with a repro label (which had the "reproduction label" print on the design) and I included both the original beat up shell, and the new reproduced one; the shell was somewhat different than the original SNES shells, and it still sold for a very good price.

[Tanooki]

That actually is my working plan, minus tagging it as a repro as I get OCD about weird crap like that and always have. I have one spare clean SNES clamshell front and when I get to the point of doing it eventually the old front I don't intend to wreck, just store. By some chance if I ever tired of NGT or Lufia 2 then I would just do what needs to be done then. But that's just word on the internet so that still gets equal hostility.

[Buyatari]

Going off the thread that inspired it in fair disclosure that guy did register here and I'm further assisting him. At this rate I feel I'd be a hypocrite if I didn't.

Well I hope when he sells his first bootleg Megaman X3 on eBay that he at least sends you a cut of the profits.

If you really wanted to help the guy the best way to go about it would be to make it for him and slap text on it so one one would confuse it for a real issue. Showing everyone who asks the ropes is asking for trouble.

[Tanooki]

Love the sarcasm. He can bootleg or not, it's not my problem and I don't need a cut thanks. Just because there are some scumbags out there doesn't mean everyone else should suffer too with honest intentions. I gave him a label paper to use, the rest is on him to figure it out.

[Buyatari]

He can bootleg or not, it's not my problem.

If you feel that way then what else is there to say. The thread on NA was locked and rules placed to prevent it because some people don't like seeing others ripped off even if they are not personally affected.

[Tanooki]

If you feel that way then what else is there to say. The thread on NA was locked and rules placed to prevent it because some people don't like seeing others ripped off even if they are not personally affected.

I know that, and I can respect that which is why I decided to post here and ask how this site deals with it and their feelings as I was really curious. I'm glad to see it's a bit more even handed and open on being assisting of others in such things than a total combative shut down is all.

I'm kind of surprised you feel shocked I'd write that as I've said it on NA enough times before so it's not new. The fact is I have no problem helping someone if they need it, and I wish if I asked for it I could get it too without it turning into a taboo ass kicking for it. Sure the argument could be made true or not helping someone could be aiding in bootlegs, but regardless if I say something or not, if the intent is there someone else will supply it anyway or they'll keep digging for an alternative on their own and get it. Since nothing I've shared is private knowledge I just don't have a problem with it. It's not like if I asked if that person was going to bootleg or not they'd be honest about it so asking would be pointless before sharing.

[Buyatari]

I know that, and I can respect that which is why I decided to post here and ask how this site deals with it and their feelings as I was really curious. I'm glad to see it's a bit more even handed and open on being assisting of others in such things than a total combative shut down is all.

I'm kind of surprised you feel shocked I'd write that as I've said it on NA enough times before so it's not new. The fact is I have no problem helping someone if they need it, and I wish if I asked for it I could get it too without it turning into a taboo ass kicking for it. Sure the argument could be made true or not helping someone could be aiding in bootlegs, but regardless if I say something or not, if the intent is there someone else will supply it anyway or they'll keep digging for an alternative on their own and get it. Since nothing I've shared is private knowledge I just don't have a problem with it. It's not like if I asked if that person was going to bootleg or not they'd be honest about it so asking would be pointless before sharing.

I disagree with that idea. People looking to get over (fakes etc) are in short cutting corners to making a buck are at heart lazy. Fakes have been rare up until recently because it just took too much homework to do. These days the ease of getting parts and know how has increased the number of fakes many times over. The easier you make it for them the more it will happen. The more advice you give them the better the fakes will look. Double whammy.

Now when you meet someone in this hobby who goes above and beyond all the others in terms of work ethic it is always for a selfless project that helps out the entire community. That person won't ever give up and gets it done no matter what happens. The other guy looking to make a quick buck usually gives up after a few bumps in the road. So which guy do you offer to help? The second guy? Wasted effort on someone who doesn't deserve it if you ask me.

[Gameguy]

To make everyone happy, you can do repro labels with small "reproduction Label" print so you don't get pointed like you are trying to scam and bootleg. Thanks to the big amount of ebay/paypal scams, usually people get defensive when making transaction, so in order to avoid any problem, you should add that small print. Your label will still look nice and would not be considered by many as an attempt to bootleg. Another recommendation, you should NEVER take off the original label, no matter how bad it is, you should use a donor cart of a crappy game you do not like to "reconstruct" your game.

I've sold a couple of times SNES games with a repro label (which had the "reproduction label" print on the design) and I included both the original beat up shell, and the new reproduced one; the shell was somewhat different than the original SNES shells, and it still sold for a very good price.
If he was willing to do this I wouldn't have a problem with it. He said numerous times that he wants to have a new label made that's 100% identical to the original, and this is for Ninja Gaiden Trilogy which is one of the most valuable games on the system. Maybe you should read his posts more closely before just agreeing with them.

I'll just post a couple of his posts below.


The idea to me is that it's not the job of a select group of people to smear and attack someone seeking repairs and/or help. That's why that saying 'buyer beware' is out there a you need to think for yourself, not just attack anyone attempting to work on their own stuff they rightfully own as if their property is socialist community property. I know the fear is real, but telling people what to do with their own goods I find far more offensive.

What I meant basically keeping it simple. I own a game that has a label with some holes and rubbed white parts on the label, otherwise stunning shape, it's Ninja Gaiden Trilogy. What I'd like to do is ask for, and then do the work to have a like for like copy of the label done. I tried a few times over at NA to do this and the very protective types there attacked and tried to discourage me. Eventually I got in contact with a couple over PM who didn't want to get blown out and I got a lead on a label. I found it, it's a true copy down to even the right DPI (same with Lufia II of sheer luck on the same location which I also need.) Then when I've and others tried to get help on the suggestions for printing, again attacks and dissuasion aganist it (even offers for free custom made labels so I wouldn't) because it makes the game supposedly 'not real' anymore or original even though what counts (the board) is 100% solid, shell too, just a shit label. People making good copies to defraud sucks, but it's going to happen regardless just look at ebay or the need for some to use VGA.

On topic or not that's some solid information and I think I'll look into it. Buyatari is right it was a public question and they happen fairly often there. There's now a rule on the site that you can't help people with it including in private messages as they'll check and possibly ban you for it. I had this guy writing me about it and told them I was also signed up here if he wanted more help since I didn't want to get an admin checking my mail. I had another dude congrats me for standing up to the people who go after those wanting to do that stuff freedom of speech and all that. I'm totally with you I get so angry about it because it's like there's this asinine mentality that video games are an entirely unique collection mystique and that people shouldn't have to do their own due diligence or question asking. Instead basically video games need to be like some socialist thing where everyone has the same access to the same stuff and you make due with what you have and that you only do what people say you can do with your property and nothing else, it's like video games are community property which is crap. I tried making the car argument more times than I can remember and I get called stupid and that they're nothing at all alike, same with books and comics. But the truth is they are. When you buy a used car with a new paint job on it, do you have to take a red paint job and white ink on every painted panel saying 'reproduction' on it? Fuck no. If you sell you give receipts, papers, and the rest and tell them that, but clearly not everyone is honest, but that's the buyers problem for being stupid. It's not the job of a small minority of people online to be the video game police.
Maybe I'm misinterpreting his posts. If so I would appologize, but I'm pretty sure I'm right about how I'm interpreting them.

To me it comes across just like I said, he's complaining about anyone who disagrees with him about making 100% perfect label replacements. Anyone who disagrees is attacking his right to personal freedom with his property, that either you agree with his view or you're an asinine socialist who thinks video games are community property. It would be the buyers fault for not noticing that a 100% identical looking label is actually a reproduction label.

I just don't like seeing people get ripped off with fake labels, I want my games to be completely authentic. I have a MUSHA with a ripped label but I'm not going to change the label, I'd rather keep it authentic. With people accepting 100% real looking labels being made you know people will start selling games with them as though they were real labels, or just using the labels on pure repro carts as most buyers don't open their games to check the boards. If all that matters is the board being real, why do copies with ripped labels sell for less money? Cosmetic condition of the games matter, and selling replacement labels as real ones isn't something I would approve of.

This thread asked how people felt on the subject so I spoke honestly, it wasn't just a thread asking for help on getting them made, it asked about opinions. Of course anyone who explained their views including the valid concerns about fraud gets called a socialist or a part of the video game police. I previously posted "fascist" instead of "socialist" but with the way he talks about it I'm pretty sure he meant fascist instead, yet he complained that I somehow pulled it out of nowhere. It really seems to me that he created this thread to complain about people disagreeing with him, rather than honestly wanting to know other peoples' opinions on the subject.

I'm not even on Nintendo Age, usually I disagree with them on most things relating to the hobby. Grading games or valuing screw varients differently isn't something I agree with, with 100% identical looking labels it's almost the one thing I do agree with them. I'm not just agreeing with them because I'm supposedly registered there.

[Aussie2B]

I recently got burned in buying Pokemon GBA titles. I never had any and a friend told me to check them out, since i am a big Link DX fan. It was a noob mistake, I zoomed on the pics and checked feedback, but still. The carts where perfectly colored, clear and the labels looked right. I did not do enough research to find out that the pokemon games have metallic ink. I never have had a metallic ink GBA title so I had no idea it existed. When I got them I got suspicious and popped one open. In "chinese" it said ROM on the chip. And the board serials where all the same [hot wheels stunt track] I am bummed that I can never trade or sell these games legally or with a clear concience. so I will keep them and play them. But it does really suck knowing I have fake games. It may not be everyones thing, but I dont flash, play emulators or buy bootlegs (on purpose). I like having authentic games I once rented as a kid. I dont care about cases and all but I dont want fake.

I would demand a refund if it's not too late to do so. Selling counterfeit goods is against eBay policy (besides being illegal in general), and I'm assuming the seller didn't state that it was a fake so you've got him/her on item misrepresentation too. There's pretty much no way for you to lose your case. Sure, you could keep them and try to play them if you want, but those are games that save progress and GBA bootlegs are notorious for having saving problems, where they don't save at all, the saving function dies after not much time, or they're unreliable and lose files. With games like Pokemon, I personally don't think it's worth the worry.

[Tanooki]

BuyAtari I know you don't agree with it, and I also don't like arguing with you as on the other site we tend to agree on a lot of other stuff as I find I like your posts when you lay the screws into various peoples stupid posts on certain things. You're right, someone being out just to rob someone probably might give up because they're stupid and lazy, others might just be impatient or worn out failing to figure it out, you just never know.

Gameguy I may be a lot of things, but socialist isn't one. Hell I was throwing that word around as a counter in the similar thread that spawned this one. Also as I said for myself I'd like the capability to do a like for like for personal reasons and also said that if I ever sold out I'd have the replacement and original front, but obviously not everyone is that nice, a fool would think they would be. I don't like seeing people get scammed, if you read my posts at NA over the time there that's clear, but I also don't like seeing the screws laid to someone looking to do something for themselves with their property in a certain manner as it's there stuff and not my job to deny them that right nor tell them what to do with their junk either. I'd think the proper thing would be if you smelled bullshit, don't reply. I only created the thread to test the waters here to see how people felt about the subject, that's it. Had I never thrown in the little piece about discussion being cut off at the other site, you couldn't have even made the argument I was having a tantrum and trying to get people who agree with me since they wouldn't there. You can choose to believe that or not, but I really just wanted to know.

I also agree with you grading games is just overboard and adding dollar signs just because a piece of plastic has more or less screw holes in it or if a seal is filled in or not, oval or circle, I could give a fuck, it doesn't make the game any more or less fun.

[Edmond Dantes]

Sure there are people who think for themselves and only for themselves, they're called psychopaths. They have no problem doing whatever they want regardless of what other people think or feel as they have no empathy for others.

Okay, stop right there. You're taking a basic premise--"some people think for themselves"--and immediately jumping to the extreme end of the slippery slope--"those people are psychopaths."

Please avoid this kind of thing. It's silly, and it does no one any good.


Of course they're repressed by "laws" that other people decide for them, limiting what a person can and cannot do. Why can somebody be arrested for walking naked through a public park? Who decides that nudity has to be avoided? Who restricts these freedoms? Apparently not society, and apparently none of your personal views were influenced by how you were raised by your parents. Or that's what you're saying.

No it's not.

And if there's no such thing as objective morality, then why are a lot of the same things considered evil across different cultures? If morals were always subjective, then you'd think there'd be a culture somewhere where its honorable to steal or honorable to rape women, perhaps even encouraged. But nope, it's considered evil just about everywhere, and most cultures developed these morals independently.

Now I'm not gonna invoke God or any other sort of Higher Power here, but still, it is food for thought.



You do realize this is a site aimed at collectors, right?

I'm hardly the first person on this site to diss the collector mentality.

[needler420]

I know that, and I can respect that which is why I decided to post here and ask how this site deals with it and their feelings as I was really curious. I'm glad to see it's a bit more even handed and open on being assisting of others in such things than a total combative shut down is all.

I'm kind of surprised you feel shocked I'd write that as I've said it on NA enough times before so it's not new. The fact is I have no problem helping someone if they need it, and I wish if I asked for it I could get it too without it turning into a taboo ass kicking for it. Sure the argument could be made true or not helping someone could be aiding in bootlegs, but regardless if I say something or not, if the intent is there someone else will supply it anyway or they'll keep digging for an alternative on their own and get it. Since nothing I've shared is private knowledge I just don't have a problem with it. It's not like if I asked if that person was going to bootleg or not they'd be honest about it so asking would be pointless before sharing.

No one probably wants to help you because they aren't ignorant enough to shoot them selves in the foot. Literally you could end up aiding a bootlegger that ends up putting fakes into circulation that could end up in your very own collection or the person that helped. It's a lot easier to not help and just ignore then to help just because you want to see free speech and less censorship on the situation. That's like teaching your enemy to use weapons.

You try to make it out to be a case of free speech and censonship and it's more about stupidity.

[Tanooki]

No needler it really is a case of censorship, it's withholding information for personal selfish reasons. As Dantes said above, dissing the collector mentality (that goes too far) seems fair as I think of things as a two way street and not so much in absolutes. I know people will have any potential motive for the use of the information, that's a given and foolish to think otherwise. I just don't like screwing good people just because of some random assholes. It's a larger thought beyond labels into just general retarded laws that go on the state or national books because of a few screw balls that mess it up for everyone else taking more and more freedoms away.

[Bojay1997]

No needler it really is a case of censorship, it's withholding information for personal selfish reasons. As Dantes said above, dissing the collector mentality (that goes too far) seems fair as I think of things as a two way street and not so much in absolutes. I know people will have any potential motive for the use of the information, that's a given and foolish to think otherwise. I just don't like screwing good people just because of some random assholes. It's a larger thought beyond labels into just general retarded laws that go on the state or national books because of a few screw balls that mess it up for everyone else taking more and more freedoms away.

You're right, not wanting to be ripped off or defrauded is selfish. In my opinion, it's still a valid reason for not freely sharing the information and tools needed to commit such a fraud. You may not agree with the laws, but they were enacted to protect consumers from being defrauded and artists and content creators from having their valuable contributions to our society stolen.

[Buyatari]

No needler it really is a case of censorship, it's withholding information for personal selfish reasons. As Dantes said above, dissing the collector mentality (that goes too far) seems fair as I think of things as a two way street and not so much in absolutes. I know people will have any potential motive for the use of the information, that's a given and foolish to think otherwise. I just don't like screwing good people just because of some random assholes. It's a larger thought beyond labels into just general retarded laws that go on the state or national books because of a few screw balls that mess it up for everyone else taking more and more freedoms away.

Censorship isn't really the best word for it but I can accept that if that is what it takes. To me it is more of a respect issue. Somethings are just asking for trouble.

You don't walk over to your best friend's house and whisper in his wife's ear how good her tits would feel in your mouth when he walks out of the room.
You don't walk into the Holocaust museum and discuss with survivors and family members of the victims all of your conspiracy ideas.
You don't post the home address of your millionaire uncle online and mention that he will out of the country for the next 2 weeks without any home security.

And

You don't post how to pass off better looking fakes on the very forums where collectors of those items reside.

Even if you can do it WHY? If you really want to help then there are so many others with real projects which contribute to all. You have a lot to pick from. There are guys out there who go seriously out of pocket just to produce something of value we can all enjoy. There is everything from websites with useful information to local and national conventions, video game museums and even the production of unreleased prototype hardware going off of nothing but a discarded blueprint found in the trash.

[JSoup]

If you really want to learn how to make a near identical reproduction of a label, find a printing studio or school that teaches print in your area. That's how I learned, six years as both a student, worker and teachers at a local print studio.

[Pikointeractive]

If he was willing to do this I wouldn't have a problem with it. He said numerous times that he wants to have a new label made that's 100% identical to the original, and this is for Ninja Gaiden Trilogy which is one of the most valuable games on the system. Maybe you should read his posts more closely before just agreeing with them.

I'll just post a couple of his posts below.



Maybe I'm misinterpreting his posts. If so I would appologize, but I'm pretty sure I'm right about how I'm interpreting them.

To me it comes across just like I said, he's complaining about anyone who disagrees with him about making 100% perfect label replacements. Anyone who disagrees is attacking his right to personal freedom with his property, that either you agree with his view or you're an asinine socialist who thinks video games are community property. It would be the buyers fault for not noticing that a 100% identical looking label is actually a reproduction label.

I just don't like seeing people get ripped off with fake labels, I want my games to be completely authentic. I have a MUSHA with a ripped label but I'm not going to change the label, I'd rather keep it authentic. With people accepting 100% real looking labels being made you know people will start selling games with them as though they were real labels, or just using the labels on pure repro carts as most buyers don't open their games to check the boards. If all that matters is the board being real, why do copies with ripped labels sell for less money? Cosmetic condition of the games matter, and selling replacement labels as real ones isn't something I would approve of.

This thread asked how people felt on the subject so I spoke honestly, it wasn't just a thread asking for help on getting them made, it asked about opinions. Of course anyone who explained their views including the valid concerns about fraud gets called a socialist or a part of the video game police. I previously posted "fascist" instead of "socialist" but with the way he talks about it I'm pretty sure he meant fascist instead, yet he complained that I somehow pulled it out of nowhere. It really seems to me that he created this thread to complain about people disagreeing with him, rather than honestly wanting to know other peoples' opinions on the subject.

I'm not even on Nintendo Age, usually I disagree with them on most things relating to the hobby. Grading games or valuing screw varients differently isn't something I agree with, with 100% identical looking labels it's almost the one thing I do agree with them. I'm not just agreeing with them because I'm supposedly registered there.

Dude, may be you need to read posts better, I never agreed on anything, I just gave up my advice. Advice is not equal to agreeing.

[Bojay1997]

Dude, may be you need to read posts better, I never agreed on anything, I just gave up my advice. Advice is not equal to agreeing.

One would assume that if you are giving advice that you agree with that advice. Otherwise, you are a hypocrite at best and at worst a sociopath.

[Pikointeractive]

One would assume that if you are giving advice that you agree with that advice. Otherwise, you are a hypocrite at best and at worst a sociopath.

Seriously? Did you even read my post?

I told him to add a "reproduction Label" print to the labels to keep everybody happy, and somehow that turns me into a sociopath. lol hello NA

[Rickstilwell1]

You don't even have to add "reproduction label" to the art itself. you could always put a "reproduction label" sticker on your cart separately, or a note in the game's box that says "the label on this cart has been reprinted"

[Gameguy]

Seriously? Did you even read my post?

I told him to add a "reproduction Label" print to the labels to keep everybody happy, and somehow that turns me into a sociopath. lol hello NA
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the first part of your post where you called me a troll and recommended that my comments be ignored, and now claim you didn't agree with Tanooki when you said it. It's like you don't even read your own posts.

After that you gave the suggestion to mark the labels as reproductions, which was already rejected on the first page and is why people are complaining about all this. Nobody cares about new labels marked as reproductions, that's not the issue.

[DreamStar]

I don't have much of a problem with someone restoring a classic game as long as it's done right and with tastle.Games like NWC and Stadium Events need to be restore by someone with game restoration experence though.I wouldn't attemp to restore games in that particular class unless I'm a expert with at least a few years experence.