HDTVs and scaling

[Einzelherz]

I finally joined the world in 2005 and bought an HDTV. As I'm sure you all know, my older consoles (which would be all of my consoles) look like crap. The Wii, running on component in 480p with the 16:9 aspect adjustment actually doesn't look too bad, but it also doesn't seem to fill the screen completely on some things (MM9, for instance). This got me thinking.

Why doesn't there exist a TV/monitor that actually scales incoming signals rather than stretching them? Or am I thinking too digital and the older consoles don't actually work anything like a computer in the first place? What I mean is if I'm feeding a 480p 4:3 feed for instance, the TV *could* perform a 2:1 scale and have a perfect looking screen while losing only 120 vertical lines. I've done this from my PC over HDMI with emulators and it looks fantastic.

[theclaw]

First step, eliminate RF and composite where avoidable. Being lossy formats they mean the TV gets sent pre-damaged video.
Anything like s-video / component / RGB or similar can be major improvement.

Blank overscan area is very common. Console games often don't draw to their full screen edges.

MM9 is 480i only on Wii. Unfortunately for 480p you must buy either its PS3 or 360 version.

[skaar]

While it would be nice, there's just no consumer demand for this functionality. Displaying at native resolutions is always the priority.

You may have better luck getting a dedicated device for upscaling/etc. to hook up your older consoles.

[Rob2600]

I finally joined the world in 2005 and bought an HDTV. As I'm sure you all know, my older consoles (which would be all of my consoles) look like crap.

Maybe I'm extremely lucky, but I connect my SNES to my 32" 720p HDTV via S-video and it looks pretty much perfect, not blurry or stretched out.

I guess the results vary widely from HDTV to HDTV, which is too bad.

[Greg2600]

Maybe I'm extremely lucky, but I connect my SNES to my 32" 720p HDTV via S-video and it looks pretty much perfect, not blurry or stretched out.

I guess the results vary widely from HDTV to HDTV, which is too bad.

You have an HDTV with S-Video? SNES had amazing S-Video though. NES, anything SEGA or Atari or Coleco will look like crap.

To the OP, there are 70/80 dollar RF demodulators (check Ambery website) which clean up composite and RF signals. Beyond that you would have to look at standalone video upscalers, which cost several hundred dollars. DVDO, XRGB, are some of the manufacturers. Anything older than the Dreamcast is not going to look all that great on newer sets.

I've personally spent a good deal of change on composite mods and RGB cables, video upscaler, etc., but I've gotten almost all my systems (other than Pong) to what I'd consider maximum picture quality. I was playing some of them last night in fact, and it's really like using an emulator on my PC, very crisp.

[Rob2600]

You have an HDTV with S-Video?

Yes, a Toshiba 32HL66 from 2006.

http://www.crutchfield.com.edgesuite.net/pix.crutchfield.com/ImageHandler/fixedscale/400/300/products/2006/052/x05232HL66-b_1a.jpeg

[wiggyx]

Finding the right TV is really key. Upscalers are great, but pricey.

I feel like this site (or some other) should have a database for stuff like this. You know, where people can post their experiences with and images of their setups in action. This question comes up ALL THE TIME, and understandably so considering how hard it is to research classic console to HDTV compatibility.

[Greg2600]

I've found it worthwhile to search your TV model, or prospective model on forums like avsforum.com, which has a lot of TV techies there.

[skaar]

I don't know about anyone else but models of TVs don't seem to stay around more than a few months anymore and specs always change. I was trying to get a second monitor to twin with another and I had zero luck.

[Tanooki]

Finding the right TV is really key. Upscalers are great, but pricey.

I feel like this site (or some other) should have a database for stuff like this. You know, where people can post their experiences with and images of their setups in action. This question comes up ALL THE TIME, and understandably so considering how hard it is to research classic console to HDTV compatibility.

No kidding. You can add the one I have to the good list as I got lucky with it. I run my NES and SNES on the thing and the image is very crisp, I don't get any lag problems, and it fills the screen except for like a 1cm border around the edges. It's a Panasonic Viera TC-26LX70 and it has 2 s-video(don't use them), component(1), composite(3), and hdmi (2). Rated at 720p, but my PS3 seems to think it is and will run at 1080p.

http://www.amazon.com/Panasonic-TC-26LX70-26-Inch-720p-Panel/dp/B000OOEKF8/ref=cm_cr_pr_product_top

[Parodius Duh!]

Ive said it before and Ill say it again.

Keep a CRT television for your classic gaming! They will never look good on any HDTV! Goodwill usually has a ton of CRTs for like $5-10 bucks these days so theres no excuse. Vintage systems will function the best with the equipment they were designed for, that being the good ol' CRT.

You may get lucky like very few have here and get a good HDTV that somehow forces the system to at least be the correct screen size. Its too rare of an occurrence however and until television companies perfect vintage gaming systems to run on new sets, every vintage gamer should have a small or medium sized CRT, or if all you do is vintage game then get a nice big CRT.

[bigbacon]

i guess I got lucky then with my HDTV....sad thing is, once it dies, I'll never find one that does the classic system. Sooner or later, we just won't be able to use them at all on HDTV or not without boxes.

[Einzelherz]

Ive said it before and Ill say it again.

Keep a CRT television for your classic gaming! They will never look good on any HDTV! Goodwill usually has a ton of CRTs for like $5-10 bucks these days so theres no excuse. Vintage systems will function the best with the equipment they were designed for, that being the good ol' CRT.

You may get lucky like very few have here and get a good HDTV that somehow forces the system to at least be the correct screen size. Its too rare of an occurrence however and until television companies perfect vintage gaming systems to run on new sets, every vintage gamer should have a small or medium sized CRT, or if all you do is vintage game then get a nice big CRT.

This is what I currently have implemented. I have my old 27" Phillips that the HDTV replaced in my bedroom. I was mostly just wondering if what I'm dreaming of is even possible.

[wiggyx]

Ive said it before and Ill say it again.

Keep a CRT television for your classic gaming! They will never look good on any HDTV! Goodwill usually has a ton of CRTs for like $5-10 bucks these days so theres no excuse. Vintage systems will function the best with the equipment they were designed for, that being the good ol' CRT.

You may get lucky like very few have here and get a good HDTV that somehow forces the system to at least be the correct screen size. Its too rare of an occurrence however and until television companies perfect vintage gaming systems to run on new sets, every vintage gamer should have a small or medium sized CRT, or if all you do is vintage game then get a nice big CRT.

This is simply not true.

[Ace]

Ive said it before and Ill say it again.

Keep a CRT television for your classic gaming! They will never look good on any HDTV! Goodwill usually has a ton of CRTs for like $5-10 bucks these days so theres no excuse. Vintage systems will function the best with the equipment they were designed for, that being the good ol' CRT.

And here's what I say to this: keep TWO CRT TVs for gaming period. One standard CRT for the older games and a CRT HDTV for the newer consoles. No LCD I've ever used matches the quality I get on my Sony KV-30HS420 CRT HDTV; this thing has just downright gorgeous video. Even in Composite, the video quality is actually not too bad (RF is complete crap, but no surprises here). And yes, this TV does have HDMI. It doesn't do 1080p, but quite frankly, with the quality of the video signal at 1080i, you really don't need 1080p on this TV.

Of course, this isn't a viable option for some people, so at the minimum, you could have an LCD, LED, etc. TV and alongside that, have a decent-sized CRT with Composite and S-Video inputs (though I suggest trying to find one with Component inputs).

[BlastProcessing402]

Yes, a Toshiba 32HL66 from 2006.

http://www.crutchfield.com.edgesuite.net/pix.crutchfield.com/ImageHandler/fixedscale/400/300/products/2006/052/x05232HL66-b_1a.jpeg

My dad had a similar Toshiba, don't know if it's the same exact model but it was 32" and looked just like your image there. It had S-Video, but after he got a newer TV, I took this one hoping for better retro gaming than on my S-videoless Samsung, but the S-video honestly looked just as bad as the composite on the Toshiba, and both looked worse than composite on the Samsung.

I got rid of that Toshiba (my sister wanted it for some reason even though she doesn't have an HD cable box) and instead got a cheap composite/S-video to HDMI convertor. It's not perfect, but it's about the best I can get the N64 to look on a HDTV.

[Greg2600]

Well that Toshiba may have a good amount of SD inputs, it has only one HDMI, which is bad, but typical for 2006.

I wouldn't agree that you need TWO CRT's. Honestly, if possible I would get a Sony Trinitron or WEGA, or something similar with a flat CRT screen and Component video input. Games on RF will look like garbage regardless of the TV.

[Parodius Duh!]

This is simply not true.

Your not true, cause what I said is 100% true dig up any old thread in regards to the topic at hand. Vintage games work best with what they were designed for, period.

[theclaw]

Your not true, cause what I said is 100% true dig up any old thread in regards to the topic at hand. Vintage games work best with what they were designed for, period.

It's oversimplifying the matter. Amount of effect varies by console, TV, cables...

[wiggyx]

Ive said it before and Ill say it again.

Keep a CRT television for your classic gaming! They will never look good on any HDTV! Goodwill usually has a ton of CRTs for like $5-10 bucks these days so theres no excuse. Vintage systems will function the best with the equipment they were designed for, that being the good ol' CRT.

You may get lucky like very few have here and get a good HDTV that somehow forces the system to at least be the correct screen size. Its too rare of an occurrence however and until television companies perfect vintage gaming systems to run on new sets, every vintage gamer should have a small or medium sized CRT, or if all you do is vintage game then get a nice big CRT.


Your not true, cause what I said is 100% true dig up any old thread in regards to the topic at hand. Vintage games work best with what they were designed for, period.

First pick your argument. Which one is it?

I don't need to dig anything up. I have 4 HDTVs in the house. 2 of them get along horribly with anything pre-PS/Saturn, one does a fair job, while the 4th is absolutely perfect as far as I'm concerned. Clearer, crisper picture than on any of the CRTs (3 analoque and one digital Sony) that I own and no noticeable lag.

[Tanooki]

It's really almost random what works and doesn't but like wiggy there my Toshiba would make your CRT look like shit. Outside of light gun failing to get along with it, the image quality made even the clarify of the Trinitron it replaced look poor and mine has no lag problems either.

That was truly a mindless argument based on misinformation and lack of thought just going along with the sheeple answer of bundling everything into a box and taking a crap on top before sealing it.

[Einzelherz]

I suppose the best I'd probably be able to hope for in the future is a TV that allows you to manually scale the image yourself so that you could just calculate out the ratio you need.

[Trebuken]

A decent Room of Doom could easily have both a HDTV and a CRT, not to mention HD-CRT's or RGB's. You could go the single screen route, but I am leaning toward one TV for each generation (OR TWO) of consoles. I want to keep all the key systems hooked up simultaneously, and having tried to 18 systems on one TV, find it to be impractical (not impossible).

What about projectors? Have not used one.

[wiggyx]

In my opinion, projectors are only good for one thing; big-ass-fuck images, that's it.

They fall flat in every other way when compared to CRT, DLP, Plasma, and LCD. Great if you want 10-player Saturn Bomberman on the side of a garage, not so much otherwise.

[Scotterpop]

First pick your argument. Which one is it?

I don't need to dig anything up. I have 4 HDTVs in the house. 2 of them get along horribly with anything pre-PS/Saturn, one does a fair job, while the 4th is absolutely perfect as far as I'm concerned. Clearer, crisper picture than on any of the CRTs (3 analoque and one digital Sony) that I own and no noticeable lag.

What's the brand and model number of this 4th set, if you don't mind me asking? I've been looking for a good all-in-one HDTV that can handle retro as well as current gen systems, so I'd really appreciate it if you could share that info.

[theclaw]

It'd be nice if we had some good pics of native RGB SCART input on an HDTV. A more global viewpoint on this subject.

[wiggyx]

What's the brand and model number of this 4th set, if you don't mind me asking? I've been looking for a good all-in-one HDTV that can handle retro as well as current gen systems, so I'd really appreciate it if you could share that info.

Sony 60WE610 Grand Wega (http://esupport.sony.com/US/p/model-home.pl?mdl=KF60WE610&LOC=3&session_id=854b6c68b0d6a8e36912c8a20b3c1306#/howtoTab)


I see them pop up on craigslist in my area once in a while. If I had more room, I'd pick up a spare. It performs really well for modern and retro in my experience. Lack of HDMI input is the only real downside.

[Greg2600]

Sony 60WE610 Grand Wega (http://esupport.sony.com/US/p/model-home.pl?mdl=KF60WE610&LOC=3&session_id=854b6c68b0d6a8e36912c8a20b3c1306#/howtoTab)

I see them pop up on craigslist in my area once in a while. If I had more room, I'd pick up a spare. It performs really well for modern and retro in my experience. Lack of HDMI input is the only real downside.Don't rear projection prevent light gun and SMS 3D from working though?


It'd be nice if we had some good pics of native RGB SCART input on an HDTV. A more global viewpoint on this subject.

You're talking about a TV from Europe or Japan obviously. I'm sure they look great, but importing one to the US is not practical.

[bigbacon]

dont know about projections but sega 3d sorta works on my HDTV. I have to mess with it a bit more but it works. I have to play with the angles and distance some more.

[wiggyx]

No, rear projection is not the issue. That Wega will NOT work with light guns, but the fact that it's rear projection isn't the issue. Used to play house of the dead 2 on an old-ass-shit 60" rear projection TV with a close friend. Worked perfectly and was a blast playing on a screen that big!

It's the analog versus digital thing that prevents light guns from working on HDTVs (correctly at least). It's about how the screen refreshes. Analog "swipes" the screen to refresh, digital does the entire screen at once. The "swipe" is what the console uses to know where you're aiming at the screen.

[Einzelherz]

Sony 60WE610 Grand Wega (http://esupport.sony.com/US/p/model-home.pl?mdl=KF60WE610&LOC=3&session_id=854b6c68b0d6a8e36912c8a20b3c1306#/howtoTab)


I see them pop up on craigslist in my area once in a while. If I had more room, I'd pick up a spare. It performs really well for modern and retro in my experience. Lack of HDMI input is the only real downside.

I don't want to think about how much that weighs.

[wiggyx]

The description says 150lbs, but it doesn't at all feel that heavy to me. My wife and I can lift it, and she's pretty wimpy. Feels more like 80-100.

The 32" Sony CRT I have purportedly weighs 250lbs, and I think it weighs more like 1,000. It took 3 grown men to DRAG it to my basement. I though I was gonna break my back moving that thing. The only way it's ever gonna leave my basement is in pieces or with the aid of a crane LOL! Just one more reason that CRTs aren't always the bestest choice IMO.

[Zing]

Maybe I'm extremely lucky, but I connect my SNES to my 32" 720p HDTV via S-video and it looks pretty much perfect, not blurry or stretched out.

I guess the results vary widely from HDTV to HDTV, which is too bad.

I can't remember where I read this, or the reasoning behind it, but 720p native panels display SD content much more accurately than higher resolution panels. I used this information back in 2006 to buy a Sony 50" 720p LCD rear projection, and yes, PlayStation and older games, even via composite, looked perfectly fine.

[Tanooki]

The older 720p native sets that don't have all the required and either non-existent or easily disabled garbage filters that cause problems probably due to the time they're made had more in mind in trying to keep older standards working to help convert people off big ass heavy old boobtubes. :) It would fit with the reports showing up including my tv being quite happy with the old 2D systems.

Maybe it is worth more going into it, make a poll of sorts with another thread of just people using 720p LCD tvs how the things handle old 8/16bit systems with the fluff turned off.

[theclaw]

Don't rear projection prevent light gun and SMS 3D from working though?



You're talking about a TV from Europe or Japan obviously. I'm sure they look great, but importing one to the US is not practical.

I guess. Curiosity how much composite video really is to blame for the US reputation of old games on HDTVs.

[Einzelherz]

The older 720p native sets that don't have all the required and either non-existent or easily disabled garbage filters that cause problems probably due to the time they're made had more in mind in trying to keep older standards working to help convert people off big ass heavy old boobtubes. :) It would fit with the reports showing up including my tv being quite happy with the old 2D systems.

Maybe it is worth more going into it, make a poll of sorts with another thread of just people using 720p LCD tvs how the things handle old 8/16bit systems with the fluff turned off.

It might also be that 720/3 is 240, which is both a common vertical res and very close to those that aren't 240 so if they're stretching it would only be a couple of lines.

[CRTGAMER]

Gaaah I hate rear projection TVs! When viewed from an angle, the picture is dim and then there are the expensive bulb changes. Happy with HD CRT WEGAs which I have a "spare" in the bedroom, a nice bright pic at any angle and can handle ALL consoles as well as HDMI signals just fine. No need for a SD tube TV unless one wants to use a Retro Light Gun.

@ wiggyx - Visit my Home Page concerning Lightguns, WEGAs and Rear Projection TVs. SD Wegas do work with the Light Gun, Rear Projection on the whole do not.

[wiggyx]

Gaaah I hate rear projection TVs! When viewed from an angle, the picture is dim and then there are the expensive bulb changes. Happy with HD CRT WEGAs which I have a "spare" in the bedroom, a nice bright pic at any angle and can handle ALL consoles as well as HDMI signals just fine. No need for a SD tube TV unless one wants to use a Retro Light Gun.

@ wiggyx - Visit my Home Page concerning Lightguns, WEGAs and Rear Projection TVs. SD Wegas do work with the Light Gun, Rear Projection on the whole do not.

My SD Wega (digital) does not, and my experience with non-HD rear projection is that they work just fine.

[Sneak613]

Finding the right TV is really key. Upscalers are great, but pricey.

I feel like this site (or some other) should have a database for stuff like this. You know, where people can post their experiences with and images of their setups in action. This question comes up ALL THE TIME, and understandably so considering how hard it is to research classic console to HDTV compatibility.

I agree wholeheartedly. It would be great if there was some sort of database/resource or "sticky-ed thread" that had people who mention what TV they have - model number, what cables they've used and the pros/cons of the TV with retro/modern consoles.

Like Wiggy mentioned, this question always seems to come up, and nobody really has a direct answer other than "go to the thrift shop and pick up a used CRT TV".

I think it would be a very helpful/useful resource to have some sort of list showing what TV's people are using, and what kind of TV should be purchased to give the best results.

Oh, and if anybody is curious, I still use a CRT TV - a 32" Sony - model kv32hs510 to be exact. Like some of have mentioned in the past, the thing is a beast - well over 150lbs.

I've been looking into buying a new LED TV (or some sort of more modern flatscreen TV), but have no idea what might be my best choice. I already realize that I'm not going to find a new TV with S-Video inputs. I primarily would be looking to run my NES/SNES on it (I don't care if the lightgun works).

It would just be nice to have some sort of resource to read over to see what's best, or what people in the past have had good results with.

[wiggyx]

Maybe I should just start a thread like that. Although I'd have to make sure and keep it updated, which isn't my strong suit...

[theclaw]

If only it were easier to find mass produced budget price comb filters. I think it'd help more than we realize.

You can't get much more basic than the standard parts of two female RCA jacks, power input socket, a circuit chip, plastic housing...

[Gamevet]

And here's what I say to this: keep TWO CRT TVs for gaming period. One standard CRT for the older games and a CRT HDTV for the newer consoles. No LCD I've ever used matches the quality I get on my Sony KV-30HS420 CRT HDTV; this thing has just downright gorgeous video. Even in Composite, the video quality is actually not too bad (RF is complete crap, but no surprises here). And yes, this TV does have HDMI. It doesn't do 1080p, but quite frankly, with the quality of the video signal at 1080i, you really don't need 1080p on this TV.

Of course, this isn't a viable option for some people, so at the minimum, you could have an LCD, LED, etc. TV and alongside that, have a decent-sized CRT with Composite and S-Video inputs (though I suggest trying to find one with Component inputs).

I have my mancave in the 3rd bedroom of our house. I have a Sony KV-32HS420 that I use with the original Xbox, Gamecube and PS2 for 480p gaming using component cables. I'd also used it for gaming with my PS3 and 360, until I got a 52" Samsung LN52A630 in the livingroom. The HD-CRT picture quality isn't too bad for older consoles like the NES and Genesis using composite cables. I made a video awhile back with the CRT running a Genesis in composite.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nn6n4-GGeqg



No kidding. You can add the one I have to the good list as I got lucky with it. I run my NES and SNES on the thing and the image is very crisp, I don't get any lag problems, and it fills the screen except for like a 1cm border around the edges. It's a Panasonic Viera TC-26LX70 and it has 2 s-video(don't use them), component(1), composite(3), and hdmi (2). Rated at 720p, but my PS3 seems to think it is and will run at 1080p.

http://www.amazon.com/Panasonic-TC-26LX70-26-Inch-720p-Panel/dp/B000OOEKF8/ref=cm_cr_pr_product_top

My Samsung LCD reports most games on the PS3 and 360 as being displayed in 720p. There are a few exceptions like Wipeout HD, that is a full 1080p game for the PS3. A lot of PSN and LIVE games, that are less demanding, will display at 1080p.




The 32" Sony CRT I have purportedly weighs 250lbs, and I think it weighs more like 1,000. It took 3 grown men to DRAG it to my basement. I though I was gonna break my back moving that thing. The only way it's ever gonna leave my basement is in pieces or with the aid of a crane LOL! Just one more reason that CRTs aren't always the bestest choice IMO.

It weighs a 165 pounds. I had a friend help me lift my 1st 32" Sony Wega HD CRT into my entertainment center when I'd bought it, but I have lifted it and the second one I had bought, by myself. I had to roll the television into my house with a dolly, and then I dead-lited it into the entertainment center in the master bedroom.; I did the same thing with the other 32" CRT in my mancave. I dreading the day when I might have to take one of these CRTs into the repair shop. I was @ 40 when I had last lifted those sets in 2009.

[Gamevet]

* I can't delete this!*

[wiggyx]

@ wiggyx - Visit my Home Page concerning Lightguns, WEGAs and Rear Projection TVs. SD Wegas do work with the Light Gun, Rear Projection on the whole do not.


There's some incorrect info in your thread regarding CRTs and light guns.


• HD CRTs are not heavier than non-HD CRTs (see your example, the KV-32HS500/KV-32HS500, versus the KV-32XBR250/KV-36XBR250)


P82 specs - http://www.docs.sony.com/release/KV32HS500.pdf

P37 specs - http://www.docs.sony.com/release/KV32XBR250.pdf

• The KV-32HS500 has a 60hz refresh rate, not 120hz (as per the manual you provided a link to http://www.docs.sony.com/release/KV32HS500.pdf).

• The OEM Dreamcast lightgun works just fine with the US DC, just not with US copies of HOT2. It's a software lockout, not a hardware lockout.

• Light guns don't "read reflection". In fact, they don't output any light of their own and are only capable or reading projected light. A glass CRT offers zero benefit over a plastic lens such as a DLP TV would have.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Light_gun

http://www.howstuffworks.com/question273.htm




It weighs a 165 pounds. I had a friend help me lift my 1st 32" Sony Wega HD CRT into my entertainment center when I'd bought it, but I have lifted it and the second one I had bought, by myself. I had to roll the television into my house with a dolly, and then I dead-lited it into the entertainment center in the master bedroom.; I did the same thing with the other 32" CRT in my mancave. I dreading the day when I might have to take one of these CRTs into the repair shop. I was @ 40 when I had last lifted those sets in 2009.

It's actually this TV, my mistake saying it was 32" and not 36". (http://www.amazon.com/Sony-KV-36XBR250-WEGA-metallic/dp/B00001QGV2/ref=pd_sxp_f_pt#productDetails) It does indeed weight 250lbs :(

[Einzelherz]

After mucking about with my TVs some more this weekend I realized I was stupid. Here's my advice: Don't set your Wii to 16:9. I switched it to its normal 4:3 and set the TV for the same and it looks pretty good. Not great, as components still aren't as clear as HDMI would be (as compared to my computer with emulators stretched 4:3, but good. I did the same with my PS2 on components playing some PS1 games and they honestly looked pretty good. I had been mulling over getting an Xbox 360 but they seem to be rather a pain to hack (for retro games, like my Wii's primary function) and the Xbox controllers are crap, while I can use original controllers with the Wii.

Just some followup .02

[Ed Oscuro]

One thing worth mentioning about HD (and possibly EDTV) CRTs versus SDTV CRTs - the widescreen naturally cuts down on the area available for viewing a 4:3 image, and getting a set with the equivalent 4:3 viewable area will be less wide and hence considerably lighter. But this is obvious from looking at those sets side-by-side.

There are some types of games (480i era) where you'd want a 16:9 CRT for the best / fastest picture display, although I wonder if deinterlacing or even just upscaling as-is to a LCD wouldn't give you a more stable picture.

Honestly, I don't think upscalers and fast LCDs are that bad a deal if they keep hernias away, and it makes shuffling equipment around to suit whatever you're playing at the moment much easier.