NES Reproduction Ethics

[Immutable]

Let's say I know someone who is capable of making reproduction cartridges, and he is able to make them with an EPROM programmer (instead of the NES-joint-01 routine). After setting up a website to sell his wares, he receives many requests to create a "Little Samson" cartridge. The recreation of such a game would be considered unethical obviously, but if he was pressed for money, would the profit be enough to justify the means? Discuss.

[Tupin]

If this "someone" decides "he" absolutely must make a reproduction of a game that exists, "he" should endeavor to make it look as little like the original game as possible. Preferably both an alternate sticker as well as several printings of "REPRODUCTION" on the label itself.

[Polygon]

I would also add that I don't feel it would be considering the potential legal action that could be taken against said person.

[TheChristoph]

If this "someone" decides "he" absolutely must make a reproduction of a game that exists, "he" should endeavor to make it look as little like the original game as possible. Preferably both an alternate sticker as well as several printings of "REPRODUCTION" on the label itself.

I agree. I think "he" should also find a way to hack the rom to include "REPRODUCTION" on the title screen.

[wiggyx]

I would also add that I don't feel it would be considering the potential legal action that could be taken against said person.

This really wouldn't be an issue. Tons of people have no problems making and selling repros of IPs that are still quite viable such as Mario and Zelda, so something as worthless as the Little Samson property isn't gonna rustle anybody's feathers.

Just stick "reproduction" on the label and make as many as you want. That should be enough to keep the cry babies happy.

[Immutable]

Thanks, Tupin and Wiggyx. A reproduction label sounds like a decent way to "justify" the production. :)

[Tupin]

Make sure "he" makes it look nothing like the original and places "REPRODUCTION" in bold letters on it.

[needler420]

Last I checked marking it as a repro doesn't make it legal. It's still illegal if the content is unlicensed. Hence why you call it ethics and not legality.


Saying slap a repro label on it so the cry babies don't whine and make as many as you want of them isn't want I would call good ethics, good business and it's poor etiquette for someone trying to run a gaming business.

[wiggyx]

Ah, just when you need an opinion that doesn't matter, needler shows up to give it!

[treismac]

Personally, I have no ethical problem with reproducing a game if you clearly distinguishing it as such, preventing the possibility of collectors from being scammed. Cut and dry, if Taito/Nintendo isn't currently selling Little Samson any longer, how is it harming anyone to reproduce the game? No blood, no foul. And even if the IP wasn't all but worthless in the current video game marketplace (which it is), a repro costing $35+ wouldn't be in direct competition, per say, with a $5 Virtual Console purchase, though the issue certainly would become a bit murkier.

[Polygon]

This really wouldn't be an issue. Tons of people have no problems making and selling repros of IPs that are still quite viable such as Mario and Zelda, so something as worthless as the Little Samson property isn't gonna rustle anybody's feathers.

Just stick "reproduction" on the label and make as many as you want. That should be enough to keep the cry babies happy.

You're probably right. I just thought it was worth mentioning. You never know what a big company is going to come after you when you're making money of their IP.

[JakeM]

He needs to write somewhere into the cartridge that its a reproduction. So then they cant try to sell it for hundreds of dollars.

[Gameguy]

A marked label isn't really enough as they're easy to replace, include those new custom NES cases instead of reusing an old official case. If you can use those new circuit boards too that would be better, though the new cases would probably be enough. Chances are they'd be harder to swap out later, at least for the people without tools who'd just want to flip them for a quick profit. With just the label marked as a repro anyone can order new labels made, saying they need to replace an old ruined one on a legit game.

Replacing a label is easy, but having to find a game to swap a case and then get labels makes more work. Scammers want things quick and easy, they're lazy.

[treismac]

Does anyone know of any high profile [relatively speaking] cases of video game forgery?

[JakeM]

Does anyone know of any high profile [relatively speaking] cases of video game forgery?

Oh god, I hope no one makes a VGA joke......oh gosh darned it. XD

No, I havent heard of any. But you know theyre out there, people just keep them in their houses away from each other, so who knows how many fakes people have bought over the years. People could fake the boxes if they wanted to, and age the cardboard and printed cover art.

I have heard from a store that a dude came in with a unopened N64 box, and as soon as he was handed the money he got scared and ran out of the store, they caught him and opened up the box, and it was a rock inside. Ive also heard of people switches game carts, so you think you get a great Mario game, but nope, its like some cheapo game they just switched the rom chips out.

[treismac]

I agree. I think "he" should also find a way to hack the rom to include "REPRODUCTION" on the title screen.

Even better: put in a "loading screen" ala Commodore 64 that appears at the beginning of the game when you power it on/boot it up.

[Gameguy]

Does anyone know of any high profile [relatively speaking] cases of video game forgery?
Yes, a $30,000 AES game that someone bought is now thought to be a forgery.


http://kotaku.com/5889143/this-video-game-just-sold-at-an-airport-for-over-30000
http://kotaku.com/5932019/was-the-30000-video-game-sale-a-fake
http://www.substance-tv.com/30000-aerofighters-3-aes-cartridge-a-forgery/
http://www.neo-geo.com/forums/showthread.php?236232-The-Final-Chapter-of-the-Fake-Aerofighters-3-I-Need-your-help-(-NGDEV-TEAM-161-in1-ETC)&


Of course there are other examples, more of old bootlegs than really recent homemade games. Bootleg copies of Sapphire for the Turbo Duo come to mind, of course this is easy to spot out when you know what to look for, thanks to close comparisons made to original legit copies. Nowadays it's potentially easier for people to create close looking knockoffs at home without the need for high end factory equipment, it's just something to be careful about and try to discourage from happening.

[treismac]

Not to make light of the forgery of video games, but, philosophically speaking, if you never spend over $25 on a game (http://www.nesreproductions.com/), would it really matter if it was a convincing enough repro to where you never knew the difference? To homeboy with too much money to the tune of $30,000, of course he understandably wants his hunk of plastic, paper, and pcb to be legit for the amount he dropped for it, but if he never knew otherwise he'd have been just as happy with his forgery.

[lkermel]

Does anyone know of any high profile [relatively speaking] cases of video game forgery?

I know about Ginga Fukei Densetsu Sapphire for the PC Engine - really good counterfeits were made a few years ago and they are really hard to distinguish from the originals (especially sealed!). Fake Super Famicom gold cards have also been seen I think...

I personally think forgeries will happen more and more in the future, because rare games are becoming more and more expensive. And there are always people looking for an easy buck.

Like many people here, I don't really mind reproductions, as long as they are clearly labeled as such. I remember, someone at PCEngineFX made a custom label for Ginga Fukei Densetsu Sapphire with a large 'do not Ebay' on it ;) - and I know your intentions may be good and you don't want to rip people off, but believe me, others will and will try to sell your reproduction for $$$ if they are not distinguishable from the real thing....

[Tanooki]

Let's say I know someone who is capable of making reproduction cartridges, and he is able to make them with an EPROM programmer (instead of the NES-joint-01 routine). After setting up a website to sell his wares, he receives many requests to create a "Little Samson" cartridge. The recreation of such a game would be considered unethical obviously, but if he was pressed for money, would the profit be enough to justify the means? Discuss.

You're splitting hairs like they do over on NA and other big time collector first gamer sites. It's all 100% equally unethical. Some people like to play the pick and choose game or martyr act about it all, but they're all equally bad and grading how bad they are just shows what kind of hypocrite you're dealing with really.

I've seen this come up time and again and a popular one is Earthbound, never came to the PAL market. Somehow it's ethically 'ok' to make a PAL version of this game, but it's not ok to make an NTSC one. Right...whatever. Or you see someone complain about people making a Little Samson for themselves for your example there and since that's a NTSC person making an NTSC game that's evil, but if they were to take an english game say Terranigma and pop it on a NTSC cart, that's ok. And why? Because it's ok to shit in someone else's back yard but not in your own. It's all garbage argument making, they're all equally bad.

You can't stop people from doing what they will if they have the knowledge as is evidenced out on what you see on ebay with bootleg Earthbound's, Hagane's, and the rest as they'll do it. The only difference is the hypocrisy of the person getting angry about it if they're in any way pro-"reproduction" when it comes to stuff from other regions, stolen prototypes that never were sold (Earthbound NES), or translated J-RPGs we missed out on, or region flips like some SNES PAL games we missed out on.

Personally I'm with the ALL or NOTHING group. You either go all in and just be fine with it, or strike the whole mess of them out entirely. I do have reproductions, and not just that but original stolen works on legit new parts too. I don't have much, just a few but they run the table of the hypocrisy argument entirely. I have Starfox 2 (swiped proto/final), SDF Macross Scrambled Valkryie (a re-shelled Japanese SFC game), Dragon Quest Monsters Caravan Heart GBA (translated JRPG-GBA using new parts), and then the stolen works on new parts (retrousb with Gradius 2 and Donkey Kong Original Edition.) They're all illegal, I'm aware of it, they're stolen works, and let's be honest about -- THEY'RE WAREZ IN PRETTY PLASTIC AND LABELED WRAPPER.

Going by what I have and my beliefs, if someone came up to me tomorrow, a month from now, in an hour, whatever and said 'Hey dude I can make you a "repro" of Little Samson and I'd want $40 shipped for it. Would I buy it? Hell yes. I'm not in it for the cash, I like playing on original hardware, I don't have a flash device, and I'm not psychotic enough to drop $500 on a cartridge. And to put a cherry on top, I'd hope they'd be nice enough to make a nice duplicate of that original label too and not some grade school kiddo art project/photoshop mess for a sticker on it.

EDIT-->
Thanks, Tupin and Wiggyx. A reproduction label sounds like a decent way to "justify" the production. :)
I saw this after I posted this thing. If you're making, and can make it look right and not appease the hypocritical crybabies who want it tattooed with REPRO on it, I'd take one. It's about the only game I miss having access to for the NES I don't anymore on a cart.

[needler420]

You're splitting hairs like they do over on NA and other big time collector first gamer sites. It's all 100% equally unethical. Some people like to play the pick and choose game or martyr act about it all, but they're all equally bad and grading how bad they are just shows what kind of hypocrite you're dealing with really.

I've seen this come up time and again and a popular one is Earthbound, never came to the PAL market. Somehow it's ethically 'ok' to make a PAL version of this game, but it's not ok to make an NTSC one. Right...whatever. Or you see someone complain about people making a Little Samson for themselves for your example there and since that's a NTSC person making an NTSC game that's evil, but if they were to take an english game say Terranigma and pop it on a NTSC cart, that's ok. And why? Because it's ok to shit in someone else's back yard but not in your own. It's all garbage argument making, they're all equally bad.

You can't stop people from doing what they will if they have the knowledge as is evidenced out on what you see on ebay with bootleg Earthbound's, Hagane's, and the rest as they'll do it. The only difference is the hypocrisy of the person getting angry about it if they're in any way pro-"reproduction" when it comes to stuff from other regions, stolen prototypes that never were sold (Earthbound NES), or translated J-RPGs we missed out on, or region flips like some SNES PAL games we missed out on.

Personally I'm with the ALL or NOTHING group. You either go all in and just be fine with it, or strike the whole mess of them out entirely. I do have reproductions, and not just that but original stolen works on legit new parts too. I don't have much, just a few but they run the table of the hypocrisy argument entirely. I have Starfox 2 (swiped proto/final), SDF Macross Scrambled Valkryie (a re-shelled Japanese SFC game), Dragon Quest Monsters Caravan Heart GBA (translated JRPG-GBA using new parts), and then the stolen works on new parts (retrousb with Gradius 2 and Donkey Kong Original Edition.) They're all illegal, I'm aware of it, they're stolen works, and let's be honest about -- THEY'RE WAREZ IN PRETTY PLASTIC AND LABELED WRAPPER.

Going by what I have and my beliefs, if someone came up to me tomorrow, a month from now, in an hour, whatever and said 'Hey dude I can make you a "repro" of Little Samson and I'd want $40 shipped for it. Would I buy it? Hell yes. I'm not in it for the cash, I like playing on original hardware, I don't have a flash device, and I'm not psychotic enough to drop $500 on a cartridge. And to put a cherry on top, I'd hope they'd be nice enough to make a nice duplicate of that original label too and not some grade school kiddo art project/photoshop mess for a sticker on it.

EDIT-->
I saw this after I posted this thing. If you're making, and can make it look right and not appease the hypocritical crybabies who want it tattooed with REPRO on it, I'd take one. It's about the only game I miss having access to for the NES I don't anymore on a cart.

I agree with most of what you say. However I still don't support repros in any way and won't buy them unless they are officially licensed and perfectly legit.

It's just funny how some people on here think because they slap a repro label on the cart, makes it legit and ethically right. It's the most ignorant thing I hear. Like just putting a sticker that says repro changes everything.

Those people don't understand legality they only comprehend ethics.

[Kitsune Sniper]

Holy shit

People are considering making pirate carts. For profit!

And I thought translation repro cart creators who didn't respect the wishes of game hack or game translation creators were assholes of the highest degree, you just made them look like the Dalai Lama and Jesus Christ combined. "Oh the real game is too expensive let's make repros for people so they don't have to pay that much" FUCKING BULLSHIT, YOU JUST WANT TO MAKE MONEY OUT OF THIS.

Holy fucking shit

Just, wow. WOW.

[bigbacon]

Holy shit

People are considering making pirate carts. For profit!

And I thought translation repro cart creators who didn't respect the wishes of game hack or game translation creators were assholes of the highest degree, you just made them look like the Dalai Lama and Jesus Christ combined. "Oh the real game is too expensive let's make repros for people so they don't have to pay that much" FUCKING BULLSHIT, YOU JUST WANT TO MAKE MONEY OUT OF THIS.

Holy fucking shit

Just, wow. WOW.

+1 to this.

[Gameguy]

Not to make light of the forgery of video games, but, philosophically speaking, if you never spend over $25 on a game (http://www.nesreproductions.com/), would it really matter if it was a convincing enough repro to where you never knew the difference? To homeboy with too much money to the tune of $30,000, of course he understandably wants his hunk of plastic, paper, and pcb to be legit for the amount he dropped for it, but if he never knew otherwise he'd have been just as happy with his forgery.
If you're buying a game from a reproduction site wouldn't you know the game isn't legitimate anyway? Why would it need to look like a legit cart if you only care about playing it? I've never heard of anyone complaining that a bootleg multicart doesn't look close enough to a legitimate game, it's just something of interest to keep in a collection and play for the interesting import or hacked games.

If it's a repro of a released game that's expensive, you know it's not a real one so I don't get why you'd care if it looks legit or not. Not unless you're just wanting to rip someone off later on.

The way you worded that it sounds like it's ok to rip someone off as long as you don't get caught. Even if he's happy and thought his fake game was real, I believe it's better to know the truth about something than just keep believing a lie.


I've seen this come up time and again and a popular one is Earthbound, never came to the PAL market. Somehow it's ethically 'ok' to make a PAL version of this game, but it's not ok to make an NTSC one. Right...whatever. Or you see someone complain about people making a Little Samson for themselves for your example there and since that's a NTSC person making an NTSC game that's evil, but if they were to take an english game say Terranigma and pop it on a NTSC cart, that's ok. And why? Because it's ok to shit in someone else's back yard but not in your own. It's all garbage argument making, they're all equally bad.
It's pretty simple to understand the difference that everyone except you understands. The general view that everyone has is to not make reproduction items for games that are officially available in that region. Earthbound wasn't made available for PAL regions so making a PAL compatible copy in a Euro shell is accepted. Terranigma in English wasn't made for NTSC systems and legit PAL copies aren't compatible with North American consoles, so people are mostly fine with repros of them that are made to worth on NTSC systems.

I've never seen repros of SMS games made, probably because PAL Euro games run fine on NTSC systems so there's no need to make any. If games weren't region locked I doubt we'd see as many people bother with certain repros, they'd just buy legit imports of them instead.


Personally I'm with the ALL or NOTHING group.
If you ever jaywalk you might as well become a rapist or serial killer, illegal is illegal so it doesn't make a difference.


It's just funny how some people on here think because they slap a repro label on the cart, makes it legit and ethically right. It's the most ignorant thing I hear. Like just putting a sticker that says repro changes everything.
They still aren't legal or right, I'd like to see them clearly marked just so they're easy to spot as fakes and can be avoided later on. It's just so people won't get ripped off later on.


Holy shit

People are considering making pirate carts. For profit!

And I thought translation repro cart creators who didn't respect the wishes of game hack or game translation creators were assholes of the highest degree, you just made them look like the Dalai Lama and Jesus Christ combined. "Oh the real game is too expensive let's make repros for people so they don't have to pay that much" FUCKING BULLSHIT, YOU JUST WANT TO MAKE MONEY OUT OF THIS.

Holy fucking shit

Just, wow. WOW.
I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not, every repro maker basically does it for making money. Whenever any repro maker says they don't make a profit, they only charge for parts and labour, I have to ask what they think charging for labour means.

[needler420]

If you're buying a game from a reproduction site wouldn't you know the game isn't legitimate anyway? Why would it need to look like a legit cart if you only care about playing it? I've never heard of anyone complaining that a bootleg multicart doesn't look close enough to a legitimate game, it's just something of interest to keep in a collection and play for the interesting import or hacked games.

If it's a repro of a released game that's expensive, you know it's not a real one so I don't get why you'd care if it looks legit or not. Not unless you're just wanting to rip someone off later on.

The way you worded that it sounds like it's ok to rip someone off as long as you don't get caught. Even if he's happy and thought his fake game was real, I believe it's better to know the truth about something than just keep believing a lie.


It's pretty simple to understand the difference that everyone except you understands. The general view that everyone has is to not make reproduction items for games that are officially available in that region. Earthbound wasn't made available for PAL regions so making a PAL compatible copy in a Euro shell is accepted. Terranigma in English wasn't made for NTSC systems and legit PAL copies aren't compatible with North American consoles, so people are mostly fine with repros of them that are made to worth on NTSC systems.

I've never seen repros of SMS games made, probably because PAL Euro games run fine on NTSC systems so there's no need to make any. If games weren't region locked I doubt we'd see as many people bother with certain repros, they'd just buy legit imports of them instead.


If you ever jaywalk you might as well become a rapist or serial killer, illegal is illegal so it doesn't make a difference.


They still aren't legal or right, I'd like to see them clearly marked just so they're easy to spot as fakes and can be avoided later on. It's just so people won't get ripped off later on.

I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not, every repro maker basically does it for making money. Whenever any repro maker says they don't make a profit, they only charge for parts and labour, I have to ask what they think charging for labour means.



When you knowingly admit they are illegal and not right, what makes you think someone who is breaking the law should have standards for keeping the collector community happy just so people don't get ripped off later on.

You're saying it's ok to break the law but you just want them marked as repros for personal gain so that you don't buy fakes and have your valuable games depreciate.

Full of ignorance.

[treismac]

The way you worded that it sounds like it's ok to rip someone off as long as you don't get caught. Even if he's happy and thought his fake game was real, I believe it's better to know the truth about something than just keep believing a lie.


I did write, "Not to make light of the forgery of video games," which I suppose is a bit ambiguous in its wording, so let me be clearer: deception is wrong for financial gain. Perhaps it's less wrong if your conning someone out of $30,000 for a fake NEO-GEO game in order to pay for a heart transplant for your mother, but it's still wrong.

Couldn't believing a lie be a good thing in some cases, though? I do think ignorance is bliss in many cases, and this would be one. We're not talking about learning you were adopted, or that you're living in the Matrix, or that your country isn't the greatest country in the world, or that your dog didn't join the circus after all when he went missing in your first grade year. The truth of learning that your game is fake will not set you free. If someone ripped you off, they're a bastard, but if you never knew, you're hardly living a lie.

[Kitsune Sniper]

I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not, every repro maker basically does it for making money. Whenever any repro maker says they don't make a profit, they only charge for parts and labour, I have to ask what they think charging for labour means.

I'm not.

Though there's a huge difference when someone makes a repro cart for say, $10 profit, than someone who's making functionally and physically identical (how they look to the naked eye, to someone who doesn't open it to see if it contains EEPROM chips) copies of a game that's worth hundreds of dollars. Both are morally wrong. But can you guess which one can get the creator directly accused of criminal activity when he's creating counterfeit items, and defrauding people with fakes?

How can anyone fucking think this is OK? HOW?

[treismac]

The thought just occurred to my sleepy head that this thread is about the "ethics" of reproductions and not the legality, meaning a sizable amount of text was wasted by people stating that breaking the law is bad, m'kay.

[needler420]

The thought just occurred to my sleepy head that this thread is about the "ethics" of reproductions and not the legality, meaning a sizable amount of text was wasted by people stating that breaking the law is bad, m'kay.

If your asking about the ethics on something that is illegal to begin with wouldn't that be a bit redundant?

If you have full creative control to license a game and make a repro there would be no need to mark it as such.

[treismac]

Needler, not that I personally care one way or another, but with 420 being in your name and Towlie in your banner, I assume you smoke the occasional left-handed cigarette from time to time, am I right? With such being the case, I'm a little puzzled with your seemingly rigid concern for legality.

[needler420]

Needler, not that I personally care one way or another, but with 420 being in your name, I assume you smoke the occasional left-handed cigarette from time to time, am I right? With such being the case, I'm a little puzzled with your seemingly rigid concern for legality.

Your comparing apples to oranges and I had a feeling you would. Wiggy loves doing it to justify his repros.

Anyway I'm not going to school you on marijuana laws. It's too much to get into. I think my point was proven that you had to go off topic.

[treismac]

Your comparing apples to oranges and I had a feeling you would. Wiggy loves doing it to justify his repros.

Anyway I'm not going to school you on marijuana laws. It's too much to get into. I think my point was proven that you had to go off topic.

Of course smoking an illegal herb is a different ballgame ethically from reproducing someone's defunct ip for profit. I'm just curious about the consistency of your application of the law in light of you in all likelihood not being a "law abiding citizen," that's all. Once again, I could care less if you get stoned, regardless of what the laws say on the books.

How would you school me in marijuana laws? Regardless of what a state says it is federally illegal. What more is there to say?

Just as I don't really care about undermining your point by resorting to an ad hominem logical fallacy, so my "go(ing) off topic" isn't strengthening your case, either.

[needler420]

Of course smoking an illegal herb is a different ballgame ethically from reproducing someone's defunct ip for profit. I'm just curious about the consistency of your application of the law in light of you in all likelihood not being a "law abiding citizen," that's all. Once again, I could care less if you get stoned, regardless of what the laws say on the books.

How would you school me in marijuana laws? Regardless of what a state says it is federally illegal. What more is there to say?

Just as I don't really care about undermining your point by resorting to an ad hominem logical fallacy, so my "go(ing) off topic" isn't strengthening your case, either.



I'm still confused. Are you saying I am a hypocrite because of the stance I would take on marijuana and it's legality vs the ethics and legality of video game productions?

It sounds like you are trying to pull a but both are illegal bottom line. Which you are right, and to close minded people would consider that a form of a hypocrite. But you are also taking the metaphor of apples to oranges to an all new level.

[Gameguy]

When you knowingly admit they are illegal and not right, what makes you think someone who is breaking the law should have standards for keeping the collector community happy just so people don't get ripped off later on.

You're saying it's ok to break the law but you just want them marked as repros for personal gain so that you don't buy fakes and have your valuable games depreciate.

Full of ignorance.
Having fakes around marked or not should have the same effect on prices either way, with people not having to buy rare games just to play them prices should go down. People will make fake games for themselves regardless of what other people think, getting them to be marked as such is probably the best case scenario possible for preventing potential fraud later on. I wouldn't want myself or anyone else to be ripped off.

Speaking of ethics, I'd consider charging people for shoddy work or services to be just as bad as selling bootleg merchandise(possibly worse), yet you're still planning on charging people for shoddy soldered battery replacements just the same.


If someone ripped you off, they're a bastard, but if you never knew, you're hardly living a lie.
I'd rather not be taken as a fool, even if I never knew it I wouldn't want to be laughed at behind my back.


I'm not.

Though there's a huge difference when someone makes a repro cart for say, $10 profit, than someone who's making functionally and physically identical (how they look to the naked eye, to someone who doesn't open it to see if it contains EEPROM chips) copies of a game that's worth hundreds of dollars. Both are morally wrong. But can you guess which one can get the creator directly accused of criminal activity when he's creating counterfeit items, and defrauding people with fakes?

How can anyone fucking think this is OK? HOW?
There is a bit of a difference so I'll agree with you there, and I don't think making bootlegs as perfect copies are ok so we're on the same page with that too.

The usual repros of translations or hacks are mostly grey market goods. It's like the people who make bootleg DVD sets of unreleased shows that are otherwise unavailable. Some people do this more for their love of the show than to really make money, tracking down various releases on VHS from different regions or even home made recordings, transfering them as high quality as possible and even digitally correcting flaws as much as possible before releasing the finished product. It sets them apart from the usual quick buck pirates. I've heard of people doing this with the Star Wars Droids TV series as the official DVD release was badly edited and altered to the point of ruining the series. If you manage to find any of the Mexican VHS releases, I'm pretty sure they're rare and sought after. Last I heard the people involved with this were still looking for some episodes from those releases but couldn't find any copies available.

A bit more off topic than my usual examples but still applies all the same. ;)

[needler420]

Having fakes around marked or not should have the same effect on prices either way, with people not having to buy rare games just to play them prices should go down. People will make fake games for themselves regardless of what other people think, getting them to be marked as such is probably the best case scenario possible for preventing potential fraud later on. I wouldn't want myself or anyone else to be ripped off.

Speaking of ethics, I'd consider charging people for shoddy work or services to be just as bad as selling bootleg merchandise(possibly worse), yet you're still planning on charging people for shoddy soldered battery replacements just the same.


I'd rather not be taken as a fool, even if I never knew it I wouldn't want to be laughed at behind my back.


There is a bit of a difference so I'll agree with you there, and I don't think making bootlegs as perfect copies are ok so we're on the same page with that too.

The usual repros of translations or hacks are mostly grey market goods. It's like the people who make bootleg DVD sets of unreleased shows that are otherwise unavailable. Some people do this more for their love of the show than to really make money, tracking down various releases on VHS from different regions or even home made recordings, transfering them as high quality as possible and even digitally correcting flaws as much as possible before releasing the finished product. It sets them apart from the usual quick buck pirates. I've heard of people doing this with the Star Wars Droids TV series as the official DVD release was badly edited and altered to the point of ruining the series. If you manage to find any of the Mexican VHS releases, I'm pretty sure they're rare and sought after. Last I heard the people involved with this were still looking for some episodes from those releases but couldn't find any copies available.

A bit more off topic than my usual examples but still applies all the same. ;)

You consider someone who replaces video games batteries with cheap batteries, to piracy and copyright infringement? And then you think you might consider the person offering a shoddy battery replacement service worse?
Do you want people to take you as a joke.?

[treismac]

I'm still confused. Are you saying I am a hypocrite because of the stance I would take on marijuana and it's legality vs the ethics and legality of video game productions?

It sounds like you are trying to pull a but both are illegal bottom line. Which you are right, and to close minded people would consider that a form of a hypocrite. But you are also taking the metaphor of apples to oranges to an all new level.

Don't be confused. I'm not calling you a hypocrite. You'd be a hypocrite if you were reproducing games while blasting the practice on forums. I just want to know why, as someone who could be incarcerated for having something as harmless as a smokable plant, you think it's a good idea to fine or incarcerate people who make repros of games that aren't taking money out of anyone's pocket or hurting anyone? You burning a blunt doesn't hurt me or anyone else and neither does wiggyx making a repro of a game that is abandoned by the modern gaming world.

[needler420]

Don't be confused. I'm not calling you a hypocrite. You'd be a hypocrite if you were reproducing games while blasting the practice on forums. I just want to know why, as someone who could be incarcerated for having something as harmless as a smokable plant, you think it's a good idea to fine or incarcerate people who make repros of games that aren't taking money out of anyone's pocket or hurting anyone? You burning a blunt doesn't hurt me or anyone else and neither does wiggyx making a repro of a game that is abandoned by the modern gaming world.


Marijuana is way more of a victimless crime then copyright infringement.

You might as well start comparing drinking to piracy now.


When something is abandoned doesn't mean that is gives people the right to pirate the content. The owner of the content may find ways to redistribute the content later on. Such as they do now with digital games and reports. Even if they are done making money of their creation that gives you no right what so ever to have any access to content that you didn't create nor pay for.

You have no idea what victimless means because you think its ok to steal someone else's creation just based on the fact that the content has been abandoned. Then you have the nerve to compare that to smoking marijuana.

I'm am done arguring with someone who compares copyright infringement to marijuana use gooday.


I doubt when Metallica sued Napster and won in the supreme court , that they compared copyright infringement to marijuana. Now I know why they invented the patent.

[Gameguy]

You consider someone who replaces video games batteries with cheap batteries, to piracy and copyright infringement? And then you think you might consider the person offering a shoddy battery replacement service worse?
Do you want people to take you as a joke.?
It's not that you'd use cheap batteries, it's that you'd install them improperly just to save the cost of a battery holder or the cost of batteries with welded tabs. When most people sell repros they're openly sold as repros so the sellers are honest with what they're selling, buyers know what they're getting. When you'll be changing batteries are you going to be that honest with your customers? Are you going to tell them in advance that you'll be installing them improperly to save a buck or two? If not you'll be worse than the repro sellers as you'll be dishonest, I believe dishonesty to customers is worse.


As for marijuana use, who grows the stuff that you use? Most are grown in homes with power stolen from the hydro company, grown by people who don't pay taxes, leaving the houses in unsellable condition when they leave or get busted. They're full of mold and are unsafe to live in, yet they're often still sold to new homeowners without being told about the history of the house after a quick renovation to cover things up, leaving them with expensive problems needing to be taken care of later at their own expense. The plants could be grown outside, but either way you're supporting organised crime. I'm not sure how this is more "victimless" than copyright infringement of a 20-30 year old property that's no longer actively marketed by the owner.

[needler420]

It's not that you'd use cheap batteries, it's that you'd install them improperly just to save the cost of a battery holder or the cost of batteries with welded tabs. When most people sell repros they're openly sold as repros so the sellers are honest with what they're selling, buyers know what they're getting. When you'll be changing batteries are you going to be that honest with your customers? Are you going to tell them in advance that you'll be installing them improperly to save a buck or two? If not you'll be worse than the repro sellers as you'll be dishonest, I believe dishonesty to customers is worse.


As for marijuana use, who grows the stuff that you use? Most are grown in homes with power stolen from the hydro company, grown by people who don't pay taxes, leaving the houses in unsellable condition when they leave or get busted. They're full of mold and are unsafe to live in, yet they're often still sold to new homeowners without being told about the history of the house after a quick renovation to cover things up, leaving them with expensive problems needing to be taken care of later at their own expense. The plants could be grown outside, but either way you're supporting organised crime. I'm not sure how this is more "victimless" than copyright infringement of a 20-30 year old property that's no longer actively marketed by the owner.

Quoted for fun. I don't want you editing that lol.

[Gameguy]

Quoted for fun. I don't want you editing that lol.
Why would I edit any of that? It shows how ignorant you are with reality.

[JakeM]

It really sucks when your childhood hobby stays with you when you get older, and with others, and those jerks who teased nerds on the play ground are then selling that nerd his favorite games back to them, but theyre really fakes/reproductions he shouldnt spend so much money on.

[Press_Start]

To me, I've always looked at reproductions as "filling in the void" for gamers like me that want to play these lost classics never released in the US with the authentication of playing on the real console which emulators obviously lack and really it's simply nothing more than that. Otherwise, the only options I have is import games, consoles, everything and start to Japanese or wait many, many moons for a official release (so far the count is 2).

[Daltone]

I was expecting some Needler excitement in this thread, lo and behold he has turned up with his Napster / Metallica case again.

Two questions:

Is it legal? No, it's not. I think in Wiggy's thread I posted something about this. However, the OP isn't asking "Is it Legal?"

Is it "ethical"? Wikipedia tells me that an ethical choice is one which is "rational, optimal (regarded as the best solution of the given options) and appropriate decision brought on the basis of common sense."

What the OP is not asking is "Are my actions morally correct?" Alas - there is no natural right and wrong, no natural good and bad. Morals are entirely subjective to the individual and what is morally right and morally wrong changes with time. Let's take sodomy. Until comparatively recently sodomy has been a Very Bad Thing in the US (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodomy_laws_in_the_United_States). You'll see that at one point a bit of sodomy would get you killed.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that people in the US have considered sodomy to be immoral, "moral" coming from a Latin word meaning something like 'correct behaviour'. Sodomy was, therefore, incorrect behaviour to the majority of the population and therefore illegal.

Now lets have a look at the Romans.The Romans were keen on the idea of virility, and loved a bit of man on man Sodomy (so long as you were on top - the slaves go on the bottom!) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_in_ancient_Rome#Male-male_sexuality). If I went to ancient Rome and said "Guys, what you are doing is incorrect (immoral) behaviour!" I'd be laughed back to Briton.

If there was a natural order of right and wrong then something like sodomy, or marijuana use, would always be the incorrect thing to do. But it's not. Sodomy was the norm in one of the great Empires of the world. There are also places where you can consume marijuana (and other more powerful drugs) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peyote) quite happily and quite legally. So what we are looking at really is that behaviour which encourages social stability is good (moral) and behaviour which causes social instability is bad (immoral), only, the actual things which promote social stability change with time depending on what we as a society happen to believe at that given moment.

So we come back to ethics. Is the repo going to cause the downfall of society? Are you happy enough with the choice knowing that it is technically illegal (but chances are no one cares that much). Do you believe that the reasonable step of whacking a "Repo" label, or other identifying feature, on the cart will mitigate any supposed harm to society? There's absolutely no "right" or "wrong" answer - it's entirely down to you. Personally, I'd just do it - as has been pointed out, the chaos you'll cause in society is much less than starting a marijuana farm with stolen electricity!

[needler420]

I was expecting some Needler excitement in this thread, lo and behold he has turned up with his Napster / Metallica case again.

Two questions:

Is it legal? No, it's not. I think in Wiggy's thread I posted something about this. However, the OP isn't asking "Is it Legal?"

Is it "ethical"? Wikipedia tells me that an ethical choice is one which is "rational, optimal (regarded as the best solution of the given options) and appropriate decision brought on the basis of common sense."

What the OP is not asking is "Are my actions morally correct?" Alas - there is no natural right and wrong, no natural good and bad. Morals are entirely subjective to the individual and what is morally right and morally wrong changes with time. Let's take sodomy. Until comparatively recently sodomy has been a Very Bad Thing in the US (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodomy_laws_in_the_United_States). You'll see that at one point a bit of sodomy would get you killed.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that people in the US have considered sodomy to be immoral, "moral" coming from a Latin word meaning something like 'correct behaviour'. Sodomy was, therefore, incorrect behaviour to the majority of the population and therefore illegal.

Now lets have a look at the Romans.The Romans were keen on the idea of virility, and loved a bit of man on man Sodomy (so long as you were on top - the slaves go on the bottom!) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_in_ancient_Rome#Male-male_sexuality). If I went to ancient Rome and said "Guys, what you are doing is incorrect (immoral) behaviour!" I'd be laughed back to Briton.

If there was a natural order of right and wrong then something like sodomy, or marijuana use, would always be the incorrect thing to do. But it's not. Sodomy was the norm in one of the great Empires of the world. There are also places where you can consume marijuana (and other more powerful drugs) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peyote) quite happily and quite legally. So what we are looking at really is that behaviour which encourages social stability is good (moral) and behaviour which causes social instability is bad (immoral), only, the actual things which promote social stability change with time depending on what we as a society happen to believe at that given moment.

So we come back to ethics. Is the repo going to cause the downfall of society? Are you happy enough with the choice knowing that it is technically illegal (but chances are no one cares that much). Do you believe that the reasonable step of whacking a "Repo" label, or other identifying feature, on the cart will mitigate any supposed harm to society? There's absolutely no "right" or "wrong" answer - it's entirely down to you. Personally, I'd just do it - as has been pointed out, the chaos you'll cause in society is much less than starting a marijuana farm with stolen electricity!

You expected excitement from me?

You're the one bringing up sodomy and the Roman empire and marijuana farms with stolen electricity in a discussion about reproductions. You're the exciting one.

[Tanooki]

It's pretty simple to understand the difference that everyone except you understands. The general view that everyone has is to not make reproduction items for games that are officially available in that region. Earthbound wasn't made available for PAL regions so making a PAL compatible copy in a Euro shell is accepted. Terranigma in English wasn't made for NTSC systems and legit PAL copies aren't compatible with North American consoles, so people are mostly fine with repros of them that are made to worth on NTSC systems.


No, you know what the problem is that I am one of the few that truly understands. Your thoughts are driven like many with hypocritical personal feelings on the matter. You have these warped ethics that make it ok to pull a game from another region, or pull one from elsewhere then steal someones 100s of hours of work putting it into english and shoving that on a cartridge and making/selling that is alright. People like you are hypocrites who draw this fairy dust line out there saying this this and this is ok, but those things over there aren't when they're all 100% equally unethical and illegal to do. I understand they're all unethical and illegal and draw no special lines of which is not far or too far over. Do keep trying to argue showing your ignorance and corrupt ethics on the matter. Ethically, morally, legally there's nothing worse with making a 100 copies of Earthbound SNES for the same market, 100 for the PAL market, or taking Final Fantasy 5 translated for here, or region flipping Terranigma and selling it in our market. They're all the same crime, same ethical failure, and all are equally morally corrupt. But hey if you want to live that lie that one is worse than another so you can feel better about yourself, go ahead, but you have no grounds for arguing it because you are wrong. They're all theft, they're all frauds, they're all trickery for the unknowing of what a "repro" is because if it looks like a SNES game, plays like one, then it must be one if you don't know better.

And while we're at it, let's stop calling any of these things repros too. Reproduction by nature is to reproduce an original work, a copy. The only true 'repro' would be taking a game from our market, our region, and making a copy that's a repro and still is illegal. Taking a game from another market is not, it's just warez, all of it is warez really -- just software piracy in a pretty wrapper of plastic and label.

[bb_hood]

As for marijuana use, who grows the stuff that you use? Most are grown in homes with power stolen from the hydro company, grown by people who don't pay taxes, leaving the houses in unsellable condition when they leave or get busted. They're full of mold and are unsafe to live in, yet they're often still sold to new homeowners without being told about the history of the house after a quick renovation to cover things up, leaving them with expensive problems needing to be taken care of later at their own expense. The plants could be grown outside, but either way you're supporting organised crime. I'm not sure how this is more "victimless" than copyright infringement of a 20-30 year old property that's no longer actively marketed by the owner.

No, not really. I dont think its a fair assumption that people who grow pot steal electricity or tools they use, nor do they abandon houses they use. Growing pot does not cause the house to become infested with mold.
Even if pot growers did these practices the issue would be with stealing or tax evasion, not with growing pot.
And if you dont know, its 100% legal for medical and recreational use in both Washington state and Colorado.


Ethically, morally, legally there's nothing worse with making a 100 copies of Earthbound SNES for the same market, 100 for the PAL market, or taking Final Fantasy 5 translated for here, or region flipping Terranigma and selling it in our market. They're all the same crime, same ethical failure, and all are equally morally corrupt. But hey if you want to live that lie that one is worse than another so you can feel better about yourself, go ahead, but you have no grounds for arguing it because you are wrong. They're all theft, they're all frauds, they're all trickery for the unknowing of what a "repro" is because if it looks like a SNES game, plays like one, then it must be one if you don't know better.

And while we're at it, let's stop calling any of these things repros too. Reproduction by nature is to reproduce an original work, a copy. The only true 'repro' would be taking a game from our market, our region, and making a copy that's a repro and still is illegal. Taking a game from another market is not, it's just warez, all of it is warez really -- just software piracy in a pretty wrapper of plastic and label.

Yeah, exactly. While I think that people making these repros is pretty much a 'who cares, its not hurting anybody' type of issue, I dont think you can argue that its NOT essentially stealing someone else's work to reproduce & sell for profit.

[Gameguy]

No, you know what the problem is that I am one of the few that truly understands.
Yes, everyone is crazy except you.

As for taking a person's translation, it's not like they got permission in the first place to make the translation from the rights holders. It's just as illegal as making a bootleg of it. Nobody wants their work to be sold because of the belief that if nobody is making a profit, the owners of the game won't sue them. They can still be taken to court either way, it's just that most companies don't care enough to bother as long as it's done for free.

If a translation or localization isn't approved of, companies don't want these associated to them or their game in any way. It's not like you can guarantee these to be accurate, you can make the text say anything you want.

Just check this altered version of Chrono Trigger, companies don't want this stuff to happen.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tYdNUUwfLyY


And while we're at it, let's stop calling any of these things repros too. Reproduction by nature is to reproduce an original work, a copy. The only true 'repro' would be taking a game from our market, our region, and making a copy that's a repro and still is illegal. Taking a game from another market is not, it's just warez, all of it is warez really -- just software piracy in a pretty wrapper of plastic and label.
This I agree with, the only reason I still call them "repros" is so other people know what I'm talking about. Most people know them as reproductions. To me they're bootlegs.


No, not really. I dont think its a fair assumption that people who grow pot steal electricity or tools they use, nor do they abandon houses they use. Growing pot does not cause the house to become infested with mold.
Even if pot growers did these practices the issue would be with stealing or tax evasion, not with growing pot.
And if you dont know, its 100% legal for medical and recreational use in both Washington state and Colorado.
It depends on where you're located, as you've said it is legal in certain regions. Illegal grow-ops are a big problem though, I'll just post a few quick links. Basically someone rented 54 homes and converted them all into grow-ops. It's not the only case I remember on the news, I remember someone converted an apartment into one and of course it later caught fire endangering everyone in the building. Every few months another one gets mentioned on the news, just search about grow-ops and you'll find plenty of mentions from all areas. Plenty of regions give tips on spotting and reporting them. It's all about making money as the crops are worth millions, the people doing this don't care about ethics.

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2009/12/22/real_estate_agent_jailed_fined_1m_for_growop_schem e.html
http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2009/05/05/growop_king_duped_54_homeowners.html

And here's about the housing damage that gets sold to unsuspecting buyers.
http://www.cbc.ca/marketplace/2010/grow_op_cover_up/main.html

[bb_hood]

It depends on where you're located, as you've said it is legal in certain regions. Illegal grow-ops are a big problem though, I'll just post a few quick links. Basically someone rented 54 homes and converted them all into grow-ops. It's not the only case I remember on the news, I remember someone converted an apartment into one and of course it later caught fire endangering everyone in the building. Every few months another one gets mentioned on the news, just search about grow-ops and you'll find plenty of mentions from all areas. Plenty of regions give tips on spotting and reporting them. It's all about making money as the crops are worth millions, the people doing this don't care about ethics.

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2009/12/22/real_estate_agent_jailed_fined_1m_for_growop_schem e.html
http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2009/05/05/growop_king_duped_54_homeowners.html

And here's about the housing damage that gets sold to unsuspecting buyers.
http://www.cbc.ca/marketplace/2010/grow_op_cover_up/main.html

If houses are catching fire because people are growing pot Id think it was due to common negligence, not poor ethics. Its use as a narcotic aside, how is growing pot different from growing any other plant indoors? If I was growing flowers or tomatoes inside my house and it exploded or caught fire I wouldnt say its because I was a bad person. Just an idiot.

With the last link: (quoted)
As Erica Johnson reveals, many Canadians are buying patched-up houses that disguise evidence that they were former grow-ops.

If not properly cleaned up, it can lead to six-figure repair bills, like mold, structural and electrical problems. In some cities, when police bust a grow-op, they contact the municipality to make sure it's cleaned up before it goes to market. But our research reveals that doesn't happen across the country. And even when it does, it doesn't always protect consumers. Most grow operations go undetected by police.

-It seems the issue is people hiding evidence of the damage, which would be unethical. It also says "If not properly cleaned up, it can lead to six-figure repair bills, like mold, structural and electrical problems." Again, negligence to remove moisture or whatever causes the mold would be the problem.

[needler420]

Not to mention everything he mentions about marijuana that occurs takes place where there is a black market and it's unregulated.

In CA, WA, CO things seem to be working on a state level. Just a matter of time before it's federal.


Copyright laws are getting more strict not lenient.

[Rickstilwell1]

Does anyone know of any high profile [relatively speaking] cases of video game forgery?

In Hong Kong where they mass produced fake Game Boy Advance and Nintendo DS games and sold them on ebay as the cheapest Buy It Now listing with stock photos.

[Parodius Duh!]

obviously producing repros of expensive, rare, and officially produced NES titles is incredibly wrong and should be shunned.

Repros of translations, prototypes, and unreleased or pirate original titles should be welcomed with open arms.

If you are to stupid to not know "Sweet Home" was never officially released in the US, you deserve to be beaten with a burlap sack full of repro carts.

[SparTonberry]

Just check this altered version of Chrono Trigger, companies don't want this stuff to happen.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tYdNUUwfLyY
However, is it worth suing over some ROM hack that looks like it was written by a 12-year-old who just learned how to use a hex editor?
I'd think many people who saw it would quickly realize no professional would release something with writing so shitty.
(or maybe the right term is "I'd hope many people..." :( )

[Flam]

In CA, WA, CO things seem to be working on a state level. Just a matter of time before it's federal.

https://co.humboldt.ca.us/hhs/phb/documents/cha%201.11.13.pdf

check out page 35.

[Kitsune Sniper]

obviously producing repros of expensive, rare, and officially produced NES titles is incredibly wrong and should be shunned.

Repros of translations, prototypes, and unreleased or pirate original titles should be welcomed with open arms.

And why is a prototype less "valuable" than an official game? Why is a counterfeit copy of a proto less morally reprehensible than making one of a released game? This is why the Atari collector scene bothers me so much. There's repro carts made out of rare and valuable games quite frequently, and prototypes, and nobody there seems to mind it.

And yes, we game translators know we break the law when we make these patches. The companies just don't care unless someone is making money off of their IP. And we don't make money off their IP. (Except for one guy who actually wanted money for his translation patches - but the games he charged for got officially localized so he didn't get much money. Thankfully.) We don't pretend we're above the law. If one day a company comes along and sues me, it's well within their rights.

[bb_hood]

https://co.humboldt.ca.us/hhs/phb/documents/cha%201.11.13.pdf

check out page 35.

Did you see page 34? Apparently bags of soil promote people to grow pot. Like that makes any sense. Better keep the kids away from home depot and lowes..
Page 35 seems to be mostly about alcohol, marijuana isnt even mentioned on that page.

[wiggyx]

If your asking about the ethics on something that is illegal to begin with wouldn't that be a bit redundant?

If you have full creative control to license a game and make a repro there would be no need to mark it as such.

No. Law and ethics, while bound together in many ways, are not synonymous. An ethical decision and/or action can very much so be illegal, and a lawful decision and/or action can most assuredly be unethical.

There is no such thing as a licensed repro.


Needler, not that I personally care one way or another, but with 420 being in your name and Towlie in your banner, I assume you smoke the occasional left-handed cigarette from time to time, am I right? With such being the case, I'm a little puzzled with your seemingly rigid concern for legality.

Thank you. Finally someone else calls him out on his contradicting ethics.

• Violating copyright law = heinous crime

• Violating federal drug law = meh


Your comparing apples to oranges and I had a feeling you would. Wiggy loves doing it to justify his repros.

Anyway I'm not going to school you on marijuana laws. It's too much to get into. I think my point was proven that you had to go off topic.

None of my interactions with you are intended to "justify" what I do. I have zero need or desire to do so.

LOL @ you schooling someone. Marajuana is illegal, period. Sure, some states have de-criminalized and even legalized it, but those laws do NOT superceed federal law (see "medicinal" marijuana dispensaries in CA being raided by federal authority). What you're doing is illegal and you partake knowing such. How does this make you oh so much different from anyone making repros?

Before you get into it, the "victimless" argument holds no water. Either of these crimes could be argued to have victims. The point is moot.



You [consider someone who replaces video games batteries with cheap batteries, to piracy and copyright infringement? And then you think you might consider the person offering a shoddy battery replacement service worse?
Do you want people to take you as a joke.?

The fact that you plan to offer the service while knowing that you are unqualified to do so is pretty unethical. And if you don't know that you're unqualified to do so while still offering the service, then you're ignorant and even more dangerous than the person who is knowingly ripping people off.


obviously producing repros of expensive, rare, and officially produced NES titles is incredibly wrong and should be shunned.

Repros of translations, prototypes, and unreleased or pirate original titles should be welcomed with open arms.

If you are to stupid to not know "Sweet Home" was never officially released in the US, you deserve to be beaten with a burlap sack full of repro carts.

Can't tell if being serious or not :/


Maybe my next repro project will be Little Samson...

[Flam]

Did you see page 34? Apparently bags of soil promote people to grow pot. Like that makes any sense. Better keep the kids away from home depot and lowes..
Page 35 seems to be mostly about alcohol, marijuana isnt even mentioned on that page.

"high rates of drug related hospitalization..." "drug related death rates are which are 300% higher than state and national rates" "Community acceptance and tolerance of heavy drinking and drug misuse creates an environment that is favorable towards substance abuse and dependence"

What article did you read?

[Gameguy]

If houses are catching fire because people are growing pot Id think it was due to common negligence, not poor ethics. Its use as a narcotic aside, how is growing pot different from growing any other plant indoors? If I was growing flowers or tomatoes inside my house and it exploded or caught fire I wouldnt say its because I was a bad person. Just an idiot.

.....

-It seems the issue is people hiding evidence of the damage, which would be unethical. It also says "If not properly cleaned up, it can lead to six-figure repair bills, like mold, structural and electrical problems." Again, negligence to remove moisture or whatever causes the mold would be the problem.
What? You're saying the damage they cause is due to accidental carelessness and not intentional disregard to consequences of their actions? They drill a hole through the foundation so they can steal electricity by bypassing the meter, they rewire the house against the electrical code to power the massive lights and fans, they drill holes through the floors and ceilings to run industrial ductwork to vent the heat and the odors, essentially turning the residential house into a wooden greenhouse which of course molds due to the high temperature and high humidity. How is any of that accidental? Of course they don't want the place to catch fire but when you rewire a house against code to supply a current that wasn't ever acceptable for that building or any of the wiring there's a high chance of fires occuring. Safety codes are put in place for a reason.

So the growing of illegal drugs and ruining a house isn't unethical, but not repairing it properly afterwards is what is unethical?

Even if you were growing Tomatoes you wouldn't be allowed to do so in an unsafe manner, there are bylaws in place to prevent this. You aren't allowed to be a hoarder packing your house full of junk, it's a fire hazzard and would prevent rescuers from being able to get inside if they needed to. Of course a hoarder doesn't do it intentionally, while someone running a grow-up does to make millions of dollars. Nothing about what they do is unintentional.


However, is it worth suing over some ROM hack that looks like it was written by a 12-year-old who just learned how to use a hex editor?
I'd think many people who saw it would quickly realize no professional would release something with writing so shitty.
(or maybe the right term is "I'd hope many people..." :( )
That was just an example, most fan translations are accurate and properly done. It's just one reason why companies have problems with fan translations, and usually rather than sue they first send a Cease and Desist. Another reason is if the company does decide to release a translated version later on it could cut down on sales if an unofficial translation was already made available. It's very unlikely though with old games so these companies usually don't bother, and they don't care about fan translations which is why these "repro" makers are still making games even with public websites advertising their services for years. If these rights holders really cared they would have gone after them years ago, it's not like they're hard to find.


And yes, we game translators know we break the law when we make these patches. The companies just don't care unless someone is making money off of their IP. And we don't make money off their IP. (Except for one guy who actually wanted money for his translation patches - but the games he charged for got officially localized so he didn't get much money. Thankfully.) We don't pretend we're above the law. If one day a company comes along and sues me, it's well within their rights.
No ill intentions aimed your way, I appreciate the work that goes into these to make games more accessible to people. You could just as easily translate a game for yourself but instead choose to release it publically afterwards for the benefit of others. I just mentioned this to go against the "all illegal things are also unethical" argument, I don't consider fan translations to be unethical. Not all "repro" makers are unethical either, some really don't care about the money and just want to make these games more accessible to others as there's no other way to get these games.


LOL @ you schooling someone. Marajuana is illegal, period. Sure, some states have de-criminalized and even legalized it, but those laws do NOT superceed federal law (see "medicinal" marijuana dispensaries in CA being raided by federal authority). What you're doing is illegal and you partake knowing such. How does this make you oh so much different from anyone making repros?

Before you get into it, the "victimless" argument holds no water. Either of these crimes could be argued to have victims. The point is moot.

The main thing I've learned is it's easy to see who does drugs based on the replies trying to defend their habbits. Some posts here seem to be written while high. The whole "it's legal in some areas" could just as easily be applied to copyright infringment, plenty of countries don't bother to uphold intellectual property rights so it's basically legal there, since so many people are equaling morality as the same thing as legality. People are going against "repro" makers as evil law breakers while still supporting drug dealers and cultivators which makes no sense to me.

[needler420]

What? You're saying the damage they cause is due to accidental carelessness and not intentional disregard to consequences of their actions? They drill a hole through the foundation so they can steal electricity by bypassing the meter, they rewire the house against the electrical code to power the massive lights and fans, they drill holes through the floors and ceilings to run industrial ductwork to vent the heat and the odors, essentially turning the residential house into a wooden greenhouse which of course molds due to the high temperature and high humidity. How is any of that accidental? Of course they don't want the place to catch fire but when you rewire a house against code to supply a current that wasn't ever acceptable for that building or any of the wiring there's a high chance of fires occuring. Safety codes are put in place for a reason.

So the growing of illegal drugs and ruining a house isn't unethical, but not repairing it properly afterwards is what is unethical?

Even if you were growing Tomatoes you wouldn't be allowed to do so in an unsafe manner, there are bylaws in place to prevent this. You aren't allowed to be a hoarder packing your house full of junk, it's a fire hazzard and would prevent rescuers from being able to get inside if they needed to. Of course a hoarder doesn't do it intentionally, while someone running a grow-up does to make millions of dollars. Nothing about what they do is unintentional.


That was just an example, most fan translations are accurate and properly done. It's just one reason why companies have problems with fan translations, and usually rather than sue they first send a Cease and Desist. Another reason is if the company does decide to release a translated version later on it could cut down on sales if an unofficial translation was already made available. It's very unlikely though with old games so these companies usually don't bother, and they don't care about fan translations which is why these "repro" makers are still making games even with public websites advertising their services for years. If these rights holders really cared they would have gone after them years ago, it's not like they're hard to find.


No ill intentions aimed your way, I appreciate the work that goes into these to make games more accessible to people. You could just as easily translate a game for yourself but instead choose to release it publically afterwards for the benefit of others. I just mentioned this to go against the "all illegal things are also unethical" argument, I don't consider fan translations to be unethical. Not all "repro" makers are unethical either, some really don't care about the money and just want to make these games more accessible to others as there's no other way to get these games.



The main thing I've learned is it's easy to see who does drugs based on the replies trying to defend their habbits. Some posts here seem to be written while high. The whole "it's legal in some areas" could just as easily be applied to copyright infringment, plenty of countries don't bother to uphold intellectual property rights so it's basically legal there, since so many people are equaling morality as the same thing as legality. People are going against "repro" makers as evil law breakers while still supporting drug dealers and cultivators which makes no sense to me.

You realize your marijuana talk means nothing. It's not illegal to talk on a fourm saying you used drugs before. It's illegal to sell repros/bootelgs.


THis is directed at you Wiggy.

[needler420]

No. Law and ethics, while bound together in many ways, are not synonymous. An ethical decision and/or action can very much so be illegal, and a lawful decision and/or action can most assuredly be unethical.

There is no such thing as a licensed repro.



Thank you. Finally someone else calls him out on his contradicting ethics.

• Violating copyright law = heinous crime

• Violating federal drug law = meh



None of my interactions with you are intended to "justify" what I do. I have zero need or desire to do so.

LOL @ you schooling someone. Marajuana is illegal, period. Sure, some states have de-criminalized and even legalized it, but those laws do NOT superceed federal law (see "medicinal" marijuana dispensaries in CA being raided by federal authority). What you're doing is illegal and you partake knowing such. How does this make you oh so much different from anyone making repros?

Before you get into it, the "victimless" argument holds no water. Either of these crimes could be argued to have victims. The point is moot.


QUOTE=needler420;1972239]You [consider someone who replaces video games batteries with cheap batteries, to piracy and copyright infringement? And then you think you might consider the person offering a shoddy battery replacement service worse?
Do you want people to take you as a joke.?

The fact that you plan to offer the service while knowing that you are unqualified to do so is pretty unethical. And if you don't know that you're unqualified to do so while still offering the service, then you're ignorant and even more dangerous than the person who is knowingly ripping people off.



Can't tell if being serious or not :/


Maybe my next repro project will be Little Samson...[/QUOTE]


Maybe people will see your true colors before doing business with you?

[dodgeme]

The fact that you plan to offer the service while knowing that you are unqualified to do so is pretty unethical. And if you don't know that you're unqualified to do so while still offering the service, then you're ignorant and even more dangerous than the person who is knowingly ripping people off.



Can't tell if being serious or not :/


Maybe people will see your true colors before doing business with you?

Man you are really attached to Wiggy's ass aren't you. You seem to follow and pester him on every gaming forum I go on. It's quite amusing really.

[bb_hood]

What? You're saying the damage they cause is due to accidental carelessness and not intentional disregard to consequences of their actions? They drill a hole through the foundation so they can steal electricity by bypassing the meter, they rewire the house against the electrical code to power the massive lights and fans, they drill holes through the floors and ceilings to run industrial ductwork to vent the heat and the odors, essentially turning the residential house into a wooden greenhouse which of course molds due to the high temperature and high humidity. How is any of that accidental? Of course they don't want the place to catch fire but when you rewire a house against code to supply a current that wasn't ever acceptable for that building or any of the wiring there's a high chance of fires occuring. Safety codes are put in place for a reason.

So the growing of illegal drugs and ruining a house isn't unethical, but not repairing it properly afterwards is what is unethical?

Even if you were growing Tomatoes you wouldn't be allowed to do so in an unsafe manner, there are bylaws in place to prevent this. You aren't allowed to be a hoarder packing your house full of junk, it's a fire hazzard and would prevent rescuers from being able to get inside if they needed to. Of course a hoarder doesn't do it intentionally, while someone running a grow-up does to make millions of dollars. Nothing about what they do is unintentional.


The main thing I've learned is it's easy to see who does drugs based on the replies trying to defend their habbits. Some posts here seem to be written while high. The whole "it's legal in some areas" could just as easily be applied to copyright infringment, plenty of countries don't bother to uphold intellectual property rights so it's basically legal there, since so many people are equaling morality as the same thing as legality. People are going against "repro" makers as evil law breakers while still supporting drug dealers and cultivators which makes no sense to me.

Well, yeah, Id say its carelessness because most individuals are not going to intentionally burn down a house or endanger others. I just dont buy it. If people do there operations in houses they own I dont see how anyone can complain. I also think you are making many assumptions. For every one grow-op or whatever that causes a fire or actually gets caught, there are probably like 500 or many more that go unnoticed. Things have been changing in America for quite some time. Most people are no longer afraid of pot nor the imaginary threat it poses to anyone.

And if you are implying that I smoke marijuana because of my arguments you are just wrong, you dont know me at all. The main thing Ive learned is that you are full of shit.

And stealing electricity has nothing to do with pot. Thats just stealing.

[wiggyx]

...Even if you were growing Tomatoes you wouldn't be allowed to do so in an unsafe manner...

Quoted for awesome.



The main thing I've learned is it's easy to see who does drugs based on the replies trying to defend their habbits. Some posts here seem to be written while high. The whole "it's legal in some areas" could just as easily be applied to copyright infringment, plenty of countries don't bother to uphold intellectual property rights so it's basically legal there, since so many people are equaling morality as the same thing as legality. People are going against "repro" makers as evil law breakers while still supporting drug dealers and cultivators which makes no sense to me.

Indeed.

China, for instance, has ZERO copyright law. What a great country for us to be outsourcing damned near ALL of our electronics and other products to. Genius (on their part).


You realize your marijuana talk means nothing. It's not illegal to talk on a fourm saying you used drugs before. It's illegal to sell repros/bootelgs.


THis is directed at you Wiggy.

OK, let's see if I can make an extremely simple to comprehend counter-point so that you can stop explaining to us that talking about pot isn't illegal.

It's not illegal to talk about marijuana on a forum. Correct.
It's not illegal to talk about repros on a forum. Correct.

NOBODY here said that it's illegal to talk about pot. NOBODY. What we're saying is that you are perfectly comfortable breaking one law (on a regular basis, I would imagine), yet you're such an internet watchdog when it comes to the "crimes" that others commit.



The fact that you plan to offer the service while knowing that you are unqualified to do so is pretty unethical. And if you don't know that you're unqualified to do so while still offering the service, then you're ignorant and even more dangerous than the person who is knowingly ripping people off.



Can't tell if being serious or not :/


Maybe my next repro project will be Little Samson...


Maybe people will see your true colors before doing business with you?

If you have been paying any attention at all to my work (which I know you do), then you'd know that, if I were to produce such a thing, it wouldn't resemble the original in the slightest, ruling out ANY concern of it being mistaken for an original.

Also, clean up that mess of a post.


Man you are really attached to Wiggy's ass aren't you. You seem to follow and pester him on every gaming forum I go on. It's quite amusing really.

He's leg humper, no doubt.

[needler420]

Quoted for awesome.




Indeed.

China, for instance, has ZERO copyright law. What a great country for us to be outsourcing damned near ALL of our electronics and other products to. Genius (on their part).



OK, let's see if I can make an extremely simple to comprehend counter-point so that you can stop explaining to us that talking about pot isn't illegal.

It's not illegal to talk about marijuana on a forum. Correct.
It's not illegal to talk about repros on a forum. Correct.

NOBODY here said that it's illegal to talk about pot. NOBODY. What we're saying is that you are perfectly comfortable breaking one law (on a regular basis, I would imagine), yet you're such an internet watchdog when it comes to the "crimes" that others commit.




If you have been paying any attention at all to my work (which I know you do), then you'd know that, if I were to produce such a thing, it wouldn't resemble the original in the slightest, ruling out ANY concern of it being mistaken for an original.

Also, clean up that mess of a post.



He's leg humper, no doubt.

You we're trying to sell Zelda rerpos before.

[Xander]

If you have been paying any attention at all to my work (which I know you do), then you'd know that, if I were to produce such a thing, it wouldn't resemble the original in the slightest, ruling out ANY concern of it being mistaken for an original.

Also, clean up that mess of a post.


You we're trying to sell Zelda rerpos before.

And nobody could mistake his repros with the real original games, since they were hacks of Zelda:ALTTP. I don't see any contradiction in wiggyx statement, what was your intent with that last post needler420?

[needler420]

And nobody could mistake his repros with the real original games, since they were hacks of Zelda:ALTTP. I don't see any contradiction in wiggyx statement, what was your intent with that last post needler420?

That the Zelda hacks are still illegal. Repros are a glorified word for bootlegs.

As others have explained. That's why this discussion is about ethics and not legality. Which is pointless because it's obvious that good ethics is to mark them as repros to keep the collector community happy. It's also redundant because if it's illegal to begin with then common sense would say it's ethically wrong.

If he owned the licensing rights then it would be redundant to mark them as repros. because he would already have the right to be making them so why mark them?


All he does is takes other peoples ISO/ROM and stick them on a blank cartridge and profit.

[Frankie_Says_Relax]

That the Zelda hacks are still illegal. Repros are a glorified word for bootlegs.

As others have explained. That's why this discussion is about ethics and not legality. Which is pointless because it's obvious that good ethics is to mark them as repros to keep the collector community happy. It's also redundant because if it's illegal to begin with then common sense would say it's ethically wrong.

If he owned the licensing rights then it would be redundant to mark them as repros. because he would already have the right to be making them so why mark them?


All he does is takes other peoples ISO/ROM and stick them on a blank cartridge and profit.

And maybe one day you'll wake up and realize that to the license holders of these properties, the work that the hacking/modding/translating/patching communities do to these 20+ year old softwares - whether they're profiting or not - is SO infinitesimal, SO niche, and SO off the fucking radar that they couldn't be bothered with the time, trouble and/or legal fees that would be involved with sending a "cease and desist".

As far as I can tell, your persistent Jr. Internet Police routine is the worst that any of these communities ever really has to deal with.

But, man, it IS fucking annoying, so I do feel for them.

Personally I'd rather get a "cease and desist" from Nintendo than to have to put up with your bullshit across multiple forums.

[Bojay1997]

And maybe one day you'll wake up and realize that to the license holders of these properties, the work that the hacking/modding/translating/patching communities do to these 20+ year old softwares - whether they're profiting or not - is SO infinitesimal, SO niche, and SO off the fucking radar that they couldn't be bothered with the time, trouble and/or legal fees that would be involved with sending a "cease and desist".

As far as I can tell, your persistent Jr. Internet Police routine is the worst that any of these communities ever really has to deal with.

But, man, it IS fucking annoying, so I do feel for them.

Personally I'd rather get a "cease and desist" from Nintendo than to have to put up with your bullshit across multiple forums.

Strongly agree.

[needler420]

And maybe one day you'll wake up and realize that to the license holders of these properties, the work that the hacking/modding/translating/patching communities do to these 20+ year old softwares - whether they're profiting or not - is SO infinitesimal, SO niche, and SO off the fucking radar that they couldn't be bothered with the time, trouble and/or legal fees that would be involved with sending a "cease and desist".

As far as I can tell, your persistent Jr. Internet Police routine is the worst that any of these communities ever really has to deal with.

But, man, it IS fucking annoying, so I do feel for them.

Personally I'd rather get a "cease and desist" from Nintendo than to have to put up with your bullshit across multiple forums.



I have been in communities where not only cease and desist letters were sent but I have seen arrests and fines from it.

I know a few people from an XBOX ISO site where members have gotten fines and some arrested.

So no it's not SO infinitesimal, SO niche, and SO off the fucking radar that they couldn't be bothered with the time to do anything. Because sometimes they will.


https://ap.nintendo.com/report/

https://ap.nintendo.com/

[Flam]

And maybe one day you'll wake up and realize that to the license holders of these properties, the work that the hacking/modding/translating/patching communities do to these 20+ year old softwares - whether they're profiting or not - is SO infinitesimal, SO niche, and SO off the fucking radar that they couldn't be bothered with the time, trouble and/or legal fees that would be involved with sending a "cease and desist".

This is what I'm sayin on this whole issue. To me the whole issue/debate is how these repro's affect the collector/hobby. Do they devalue originals? Does everyone have a right to own a repro of Little Samson if they want one? Are ‘collectors’ elitist or are they just trying to protect the hobby they love? What are the unspoken rules? These are the questions that I ask, and for which I’m still undecided. I can see both sides of these points.

My question is for those whole collect vinyl (since I see the most correlation between vinyl and game collecting) is that do reissues of records hurt the value of the original? I would think not, but I'm not sure. Of course I think reissued vinyl is also in limited quantity, but again I plead ignorance on that.

[Frankie_Says_Relax]

I have been in communities where not only cease and desist letters were sent but I have seen arrests and fines from it.

I know a few people from an XBOX ISO site where members have gotten fines and some arrested.

So no it's not SO infinitesimal, SO niche, and SO off the fucking radar that they couldn't be bothered with the time to do anything. Because sometimes they will.


https://ap.nintendo.com/report/

https://ap.nintendo.com/

I'm talking about retro reproductions not 360 ISOs.

Show me who has EVER been arrested for making classic cartridge hacks/repros.

Please, show me.

[needler420]

I'm talking about retro reproductions not 360 ISOs.

Show me who has EVER been arrested for making classic cartridge hacks/repros.

Please, show me.



http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/qc/nouv-news/com-rel/2010/04/100401a-eng.htm


The person was making counterfeit retro games not moderns.


Here is a case where someone got sued and fined.

http://hg101.proboards.com/thread/7350


http://forums.gametrailers.com/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=1125238

http://thenextweb.com/insider/2012/04/22/saving-the-game-why-preserving-video-games-is-illegal/

http://www.digitpress.com/forum/showthread.php?111304-Going-to-do-game-reproductions-but-want-feedback

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=501466

[Frankie_Says_Relax]

http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/qc/nouv-news/com-rel/2010/04/100401a-eng.htm


The person was making counterfeit retro games not moderns.


There is no evidence on that link to support your claim.

Prove it.

[needler420]

There is no evidence on that link to support your claim.

Prove it.

Based on the date this article was published April 2005 it's at least 2 console generations old. So I would say it's retro.

http://www.pcworld.com/article/120446/article.html


Not to mention I can keep getting older articles of arrest about older games if it keeps pleasing you.


Nicholas Goodness-Glory, 31, pleaded guilty in February to importing and selling modification chips and swap discs that allow pirated video games to be played on Sony PlayStation, Nintendo Wii and Microsoft xbox consoles. The mod chips and swap discs enabled the user to defeat the security measures built into the consoles to protect the manufacturers' copyrighted intellectual property.

http://www.staradvertiser.com/news/breaking/124759569.html?id=124759569


Not to mention there is no statue of limitations for copyright infringement. It's still illegal even if the games are old.

[Aussie2B]

The biggest effect that repros have had on me is the annoyance they present when import shopping. Years ago, if I looked up, say, a Super Famicom import on eBay, the results would be exactly that. These days, if it's a somewhat popular game that has a fan patch, I have to wade through page after page of English repros, custom cases, and other such fan-made, bootleg nonsense. Repros have made it more of a pain for those of us who still want the legit, real deal.