The Capcom Conspiracy: Why did they ruin Final Fight 2 and FF Guy?

[starsoldier1]

I know a lot of people hate the new Capcom and some stupid marketing decisions like charging for DLC already on the game and destroying the franchise of Mega Man but they were screwing up in the 16-bit era at the peak of their popularity too. Take the Final Fight series for example: the famous arcade beat 'em up was a huge hit on the Super Nintendo and to follow it up they planned the grand sequel to be a Snes exclusive. Problem was the Final Fight 2 game flopped big time and you hardly see anybody talk about it anymore while the original is still considered a classic.

Now there are several reasons to why the sequel was so lackluster but maybe the biggest reason may be my little conspiracy theory here: GUY WAS SUPPOSE TO PLAYABLE IN THE GAME! If you don't know who Guy was (especially if you played only the Snes Final Fight) he was the very quick ninja character that even got his own spin off title but oddly enough if you look at the rather generic character Carlos he has a very similar style to Guy in Final Fight 2. Hell, even the story line is heavily focused on Guy in the game yet he's off training while his wife to be is kidnapped. I can't confirm this but it looks like at the last minute the higher ups at Capcom removed Guy from FF2 so they could quickly made a cheap cash in title called Final Fight Guy. Am I crazy, or did Capcom screw over one of their most promising franchises? What's your opinions?

http://youtu.be/Z-gYc8nAyQY

[The Adventurer]

Now I'm not a Final Fight expert but I'm pretty sure if Final Fight 2 is one of the most well-regarded side scrolling beat em up on 16 bit consoles. Superior to the first SNES game due to it's two player multiplayer.

I'm also pretty sure final fight guy was a rental exclusive, so not really a cash in. And just as inferior as the first Version due to being single player only.

[Parodius Duh!]

I know a lot of people hate the new Capcom and some stupid marketing decisions like charging for DLC already on the game and destroying the franchise of Mega Man but they were screwing up in the 16-bit era at the peak of their popularity too. Take the Final Fight series for example: the famous arcade beat 'em up was a huge hit on the Super Nintendo and to follow it up they planned the grand sequel to be a Snes exclusive. Problem was the Final Fight 2 game flopped big time and you hardly see anybody talk about it anymore while the original is still considered a classic.

Now there are several reasons to why the sequel was so lackluster but maybe the biggest reason may be my little conspiracy theory here: GUY WAS SUPPOSE TO PLAYABLE IN THE GAME! If you don't know who Guy was (especially if you played only the Snes Final Fight) he was the very quick ninja character that even got his own spin off title but oddly enough if you look at the rather generic character Carlos he has a very similar style to Guy in Final Fight 2. Hell, even the story line is heavily focused on Guy in the game yet he's off training while his wife to be is kidnapped. I can't confirm this but it looks like at the last minute the higher ups at Capcom removed Guy from FF2 so they could quickly made a cheap cash in title called Final Fight Guy. Am I crazy, or did Capcom screw over one of their most promising franchises? What's your opinions?



Dude....did you make up all this research yourself? Final Fight Guy came out BEFORE 2......Final Fight 2 was highly regarded and still is to this day.

[wiggyx]

Where's Captain Picard when you need him...

[SparTonberry]

Dude....did you make up all this research yourself? Final Fight Guy came out BEFORE 2......Final Fight 2 was highly regarded and still is to this day.

Final Fight Guy was a retail release in Japan, and released before Final Fight 2.
But in the US, Final Fight Guy was released to rental only after Final Fight 2.

For some reason though Final Fight 2 was not released on the Wii VC in Japan (though the other two were, and other regions got the full trilogy).

[starsoldier1]

Now I'm not a Final Fight expert but I'm pretty sure if Final Fight 2 is one of the most well-regarded side scrolling beat em up on 16 bit consoles. Superior to the first SNES game due to it's two player multiplayer.

I'm also pretty sure final fight guy was a rental exclusive, so not really a cash in. And just as inferior as the first Version due to being single player only.
Final Fight 2 is superior to the poor Final Fight Snes port in several ways I agree but that doesn't mean it was well-regarded as a classic. Sadly when FF2 was released in 1993 it got lost in the shuffle to other more polished beat em ups like Streets of Rage 2. Final Fight Guy was a retail release in 1992 in Japan which was odd.

[starsoldier1]

Dude....did you make up all this research yourself? Final Fight Guy came out BEFORE 2......Final Fight 2 was highly regarded and still is to this day.
Yup, I said in the video both Final Fight Guy and Final Fight 2 were released in just months apart in Japan but in North America the situation got reversed when Blockbuster released the NTSC version in 1994. Although many like Final Fight 2, I find many don't LOVE the game for being a safe but weak sequel.

[starsoldier1]

Final Fight Guy was a retail release in Japan, and released before Final Fight 2.
But in the US, Final Fight Guy was released to rental only after Final Fight 2.

For some reason though Final Fight 2 was not released on the Wii VC in Japan (though the other two were, and other regions got the full trilogy).
Yes, I think Final Fight 2 got a lot of mixed reviews and that's why I think Capcom is not porting it to a lot of systems like the Gameboy Advance, PSN and Xbox Live (eventhough they got the original FF).

[Gameguy]

Final Fight 2 is superior to the poor Final Fight Snes port in several ways I agree but that doesn't mean it was well-regarded as a classic. Sadly when FF2 was released in 1993 it got lost in the shuffle to other more polished beat em ups like Streets of Rage 2. Final Fight Guy was a retail release in 1992 in Japan which was odd.
It doesn't really make that much sense, people avoided buying Final Fight 2 because a slightly better fighting game was released on a different console, back when most people only owned one console at a time?

If anything Streets of Rage 2 sold more copies because it was a pack-in game at one time. It was produced by Sega so they could afford to do more with it. I do like both series though, they're all good games.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R55DgKIKwdg

Final Fight Guy was produced because Guy wasn't inlcuded in the original Final Fight due to space restrictions, people wanted Guy so they made a game including him. Final Fight was more popular in Japan than in America so it makes sense why it got a retail release there first, it's basically the same game that everyone already bought in America so why would they re-release it mass produced? Especially when the sequel was just coming out. Even so while it was originally a Blockbuster exclusive, from what I've read it was eventually given a limited release.

It did get some negative reviews saying that it was repetitive(it's a beat' em up so that's a given), but really it didn't sell as well because Street Fighter II was out by that point. Everyone focused on those types of games at that time.

[starsoldier1]

It doesn't really make that much sense, people avoided buying Final Fight 2 because a slightly better fighting game was released on a different console, back when most people only owned one console at a time?

If anything Streets of Rage 2 sold more copies because it was a pack-in game at one time. It was produced by Sega so they could afford to do more with it. I do like both series though, they're all good games.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R55DgKIKwdg

Final Fight Guy was produced because Guy wasn't inlcuded in the original Final Fight due to space restrictions, people wanted Guy so they made a game including him. Final Fight was more popular in Japan than in America so it makes sense why it got a retail release there first, it's basically the same game that everyone already bought in America so why would they re-release it mass produced? Especially when the sequel was just coming out. Even so while it was originally a Blockbuster exclusive, from what I've read it was eventually given a limited release.

It did get some negative reviews saying that it was repetitive(it's a beat' em up so that's a given), but really it didn't sell as well because Street Fighter II was out by that point. Everyone focused on those types of games at that time.
OK, maybe some people never got the chance to play SOR2 back in the day since it was on a different console but older magazines would have and their reviews would reflect other titles in the genre. Also I compared to FF2 to TMNT Turtles in Time in the video which was a super release as well.

I can see your point, Final Fight Guy was a decent enough game idea in theory but it also came at the cost of making Final Fight 2 a great game instead of a indifferent, decent one when it looks like Capcom had Guy as a playable fighter removed.

[treismac]

To be honest, I always viewed Final Fight 2 & 3 as inferior to the original because they never graced the arcade before coming to the home console like the original. They were direct-to-video, man; this lowered my view of them back in the time when arcades were king.

With this said, I never played either sequel as a kid back in the day, and I was sore at Capcom for making Final Fight a one player affair on the SNES, so I didn't want to give them another chance with their sequels.

[CelticJobber]

As a kid I always loved Final Fight, even the sub-par port on SNES (as it was my first exposure to the series, I had no idea how stripped down it was from the arcade).

But for some reason, I never enjoyed Final Fight 2 nearly as much. Maybe it was because Cody was my favorite character and he wasn't in the sequel.

And I didn't like it because the character sprites were smaller, which sounds kinda weird but it's also one of the reasons I preferred Final Fight to the Streets of Rage series.

And I always wanted to play Final Fight 3 after it's release, but I never could find it back then. Same with FF Guy (though apparently I didn't miss much with that one).

[Tanooki]

I don't see where there's even a conspiracy theory worth it on Final Fight like that.

Final Fight was released as is because Capcom was being a cheapskate and trying to rush and it's pretty clear at that. They went with a small chip to keep costs down and as a result they had to do cuts. They removed Rolento and his entire stage, they also gutted out Guy which was inexcusable as much as removing 2P mode which the arcade was a key draw around, and then they neutered it putting in stickboy trannies instead of the girls. While it ticked people off who were old enough to care we have to keep it in perspective of 1991 when most here probably with SNES were teens or kids in the pre-internet era so they'd have no clue of being shafted so I don't see how FF1 hurt FF2's sales. FF Guy was retail in Japan and was basically just a re-skin of their cheapskate port of the original, Blockbuster saw a rental opportunity and was able to work with Capcom to exclusively rent those things out in the states as it wasn't a retail purchase. Final FIght 2 popped up after that rental in this country, but it was made before FF1 got reskinned as FF Guy. Final FIght 2 was on par or even in some ways depending on tastes superior to other brawlers and it has the lack of multiplayer corrected. Capcom wasn't hurting for rep as they had other potent titles at the time too like Captain Commando. I don't even see how arguing about the Genesis is relevant as most people were single system owners in that era, it isn't the period of now where game junkies have at least 2 if not all 3 of the big fish so if you had a Genesis you got Streets of Rage 1-3, and if you had SNES only you were a Final Fight 1-3 type guy or played others from Capcom or other developers on each.

[SparTonberry]

They went with a small chip to keep costs down and as a result they had to do cuts.
Final Fight was 8 megabit which was actually large for a game released in 1990 (in Japan). SFII was considered "huge" when it was released with 16 megabits in 1992.
At the beginning of the year, Konami released Ganbare Goemon Gaiden 1, which (I'm pretty sure) was actually the first 4-megabit Famicom game. (yeah, I know Phantasy Star was a 4-meg game made in 1987, not sure why it took over 2 years for the FC to catch up. Chip shortage?)

[ShinobiMan]

Dude....did you make up all this research yourself? Final Fight Guy came out BEFORE 2......Final Fight 2 was highly regarded and still is to this day.

Yeah, I walked into this thread thinking the same thing. Final Fight 2 is a classic. Now 3... a bit of a misstep IMHO. Streets Of Rage 2 will always top this game however in style and gameplay... well music too. EVERYTHING.

[starsoldier1]

To be honest, I always viewed Final Fight 2 & 3 as inferior to the original because they never graced the arcade before coming to the home console like the original. They were direct-to-video, man; this lowered my view of them back in the time when arcades were king.

With this said, I never played either sequel as a kid back in the day, and I was sore at Capcom for making Final Fight a one player affair on the SNES, so I didn't want to give them another chance with their sequels.
I always thought that was weird too since Capcom was still making side scrolling beat em ups in the arcades at that time like Knights of the Round and the Punisher. If Final Fight 2 was released to the arcades first, maybe Capcom could have poured more effort into it.

[starsoldier1]

As a kid I always loved Final Fight, even the sub-par port on SNES (as it was my first exposure to the series, I had no idea how stripped down it was from the arcade).

But for some reason, I never enjoyed Final Fight 2 nearly as much. Maybe it was because Cody was my favorite character and he wasn't in the sequel.

And I didn't like it because the character sprites were smaller, which sounds kinda weird but it's also one of the reasons I preferred Final Fight to the Streets of Rage series.

And I always wanted to play Final Fight 3 after it's release, but I never could find it back then. Same with FF Guy (though apparently I didn't miss much with that one).
You're not the only one, many had mixed review on Final Fight 2 despite how popular the first one was and actually still is.

[starsoldier1]

I don't see where there's even a conspiracy theory worth it on Final Fight like that.

Final Fight was released as is because Capcom was being a cheapskate and trying to rush and it's pretty clear at that. They went with a small chip to keep costs down and as a result they had to do cuts. They removed Rolento and his entire stage, they also gutted out Guy which was inexcusable as much as removing 2P mode which the arcade was a key draw around, and then they neutered it putting in stickboy trannies instead of the girls. While it ticked people off who were old enough to care we have to keep it in perspective of 1991 when most here probably with SNES were teens or kids in the pre-internet era so they'd have no clue of being shafted so I don't see how FF1 hurt FF2's sales. FF Guy was retail in Japan and was basically just a re-skin of their cheapskate port of the original, Blockbuster saw a rental opportunity and was able to work with Capcom to exclusively rent those things out in the states as it wasn't a retail purchase. Final FIght 2 popped up after that rental in this country, but it was made before FF1 got reskinned as FF Guy. Final FIght 2 was on par or even in some ways depending on tastes superior to other brawlers and it has the lack of multiplayer corrected. Capcom wasn't hurting for rep as they had other potent titles at the time too like Captain Commando. I don't even see how arguing about the Genesis is relevant as most people were single system owners in that era, it isn't the period of now where game junkies have at least 2 if not all 3 of the big fish so if you had a Genesis you got Streets of Rage 1-3, and if you had SNES only you were a Final Fight 1-3 type guy or played others from Capcom or other developers on each.
Good points but that's not really my issue. It appears the character Carlos was originally suppose to be Guy and Capcom delayed development on FF2 so they could slap together a cheap cash-in like Final Fight Guy. It was a little too easy for me to edit in Guy in Final Fight 2 for example.

[wiggyx]

Final Fight was 8 megabit which was actually large for a game released in 1990 (in Japan). SFII was considered "huge" when it was released with 16 megabits in 1992.
At the beginning of the year, Konami released Ganbare Goemon Gaiden 1, which (I'm pretty sure) was actually the first 4-megabit Famicom game. (yeah, I know Phantasy Star was a 4-meg game made in 1987, not sure why it took over 2 years for the FC to catch up. Chip shortage?)

Not to mention that it was a VERY early 1st generation title. It wasn't like Capcom had 3-4 years if SFC/SNES programming experience behind them at that point.

[Tanooki]

That's the conspiracy theory there if you think Final Fight 2 was delayed to shovel out GUY as a rental title (or retail in Japan) as FF2 came out before FFG. FFG wasn't even intended for sale in the US, Capcom saw money only from Blockbuster buying rental copies off them so your argument really doesn't work. I get your idea coming off the art style of it all but unless you can get a Capcom rep or ex-rep who was on or knowing of the project I'm not buying into it.

[starsoldier1]

That's the conspiracy theory there if you think Final Fight 2 was delayed to shovel out GUY as a rental title (or retail in Japan) as FF2 came out before FFG. FFG wasn't even intended for sale in the US, Capcom saw money only from Blockbuster buying rental copies off them so your argument really doesn't work. I get your idea coming off the art style of it all but unless you can get a Capcom rep or ex-rep who was on or knowing of the project I'm not buying into it.

From that standpoint yes but I'm only talking about the Japanese releases since the Super Famicom release of both FF2 and FFG were only a few months apart. Going by the in game story line of FF2 it heavily looks like Guy was going to be the central character until maybe Capcom decided to go in another direction like making another cheap and easy expansion like FFG. All I have is a conspiracy for now but I'm pretty sure Capcom higher ups would have tight lips on any employees that would dare speak out and they have been known to have rough relationships with designers before like Keiji Inafune.

[ApolloBoy]

All I have is a conspiracy for now but I'm pretty sure Capcom higher ups would have tight lips on any employees that would dare speak out and they have been known to have rough relationships with designers before like Keiji Inafune.
*snickers*

[wiggyx]

That's the conspiracy theory there if you think Final Fight 2 was delayed to shovel out GUY as a rental title (or retail in Japan) as FF2 came out before FFG. FFG wasn't even intended for sale in the US, Capcom saw money only from Blockbuster buying rental copies off them so your argument really doesn't work. I get your idea coming off the art style of it all but unless you can get a Capcom rep or ex-rep who was on or knowing of the project I'm not buying into it.

To be fair, even though it's been shown that the US retail release was tiny, it did exist. It wasn't just a rental-only game here.

[johno590]

The video you posted is pretty horrible.

[starsoldier1]

To be fair, even though it's been shown that the US retail release was tiny, it did exist. It wasn't just a rental-only game here.
I seen two US versions of Final Fight Guy out there too. One with the Blockbuster label in a orange box (rental), one with the standard black Snes box (retail).

[starsoldier1]

The video you posted is pretty horrible.

OK, I'm open to critics but most seemed to like the video since it at least got people talking about why Final Fight isn't a bigger franchise. What was your problem with the video?

[starsoldier1]

Yeah, I walked into this thread thinking the same thing. Final Fight 2 is a classic. Now 3... a bit of a misstep IMHO. Streets Of Rage 2 will always top this game however in style and gameplay... well music too. EVERYTHING.

I'm not saying Final Fight 2 is really a bad game and I even gave it a passing grade in a review. I'm just saying it's odd how Guy may have been omitted from the game originally since the story line is so focused on his character yet he's not playable. Ohya, and I agree that Streets of Rage 2 is awesome!

[Captain_N77]

You are really reaching with this conspiracy, but at least you got folks talking about Final Fight!

Personally, I really like FF2. Yeah, it stinks having no Guy or Cody, but the game plays well and has co-op. I do feel FF3 is a step down, but still playable and fun.

I still occasionally play FF on SNES. It was my first FF game and despite all of the cuts we know are made to the game...it's still fun. I love the setting, music, characters, and the tight controls. True it would have been great to have Guy and co-op, but that's just the way the old cookie crumbles sometimes.

[starsoldier1]

You are really reaching with this conspiracy, but at least you got folks talking about Final Fight!

Personally, I really like FF2. Yeah, it stinks having no Guy or Cody, but the game plays well and has co-op. I do feel FF3 is a step down, but still playable and fun.

I still occasionally play FF on SNES. It was my first FF game and despite all of the cuts we know are made to the game...it's still fun. I love the setting, music, characters, and the tight controls. True it would have been great to have Guy and co-op, but that's just the way the old cookie crumbles sometimes.

It's a long shot but I still think it's very odd how similar Carlos and Guy are to one another. Again, I don't hate the game Final Fight 2 but when I reviewed it, the sequel just felt like it was missing something. There seems to be a lot of love for FF2 but it's odd that Capcom themselves only re-released the game on the Wii VC so far and not the other systems.

http://youtu.be/J6zF6GvYmaE

[Gameguy]

The second game was exclusive to the SNES so it's not really a big deal if it's exclusive on the Wii VC. The first game wasn't a Nintendo exclusive, besides the arcade version there was the Sega CD version which came out 2 years after the SNES port. I'm pretty sure Final Fight 3 is only on the Wii VC as well. What's weird is there's no home version of Final Fight Revenge besides the Japanese Saturn, even though it was an American produced game.

I won't believe it's a conspiracy unless Jesse Ventura does an episode on it.

[Tanooki]

I have to agree with Captain N77. FF is a fine game even with the lousy cuts. I still will fire it up now and again and played it like hell for years. The thing is all of them are good titles, and I think FF3 if anything gets a bad wrap. I think that one has a neat mechanic to the fighting as it has these street fighter 2 'lite' presses you can do for beefier moves which was a nice touch.

[starsoldier1]

The second game was exclusive to the SNES so it's not really a big deal if it's exclusive on the Wii VC. The first game wasn't a Nintendo exclusive, besides the arcade version there was the Sega CD version which came out 2 years after the SNES port. I'm pretty sure Final Fight 3 is only on the Wii VC as well. What's weird is there's no home version of Final Fight Revenge besides the Japanese Saturn, even though it was an American produced game.

I won't believe it's a conspiracy unless Jesse Ventura does an episode on it.

I thought for sure though FF2 would have been ported to the GBA at least especially since Capcom called their port of Final Fight GBA Final Fight One. I assumed Final Fight Two would have around the corner but it never happened. Heh heh, Jesse Ventura has his own conspiracies and potential lawsuit with comparisons to Mike Hagger.

[starsoldier1]

I have to agree with Captain N77. FF is a fine game even with the lousy cuts. I still will fire it up now and again and played it like hell for years. The thing is all of them are good titles, and I think FF3 if anything gets a bad wrap. I think that one has a neat mechanic to the fighting as it has these street fighter 2 'lite' presses you can do for beefier moves which was a nice touch.

I love Final Fight 3 too.