Older HD (crt) TV's and retro consoles

[Stringfellow]

I know that at least some older consoles don't work well with modern flat hd tvs but how well do they work with the hd crt tvs? I only ask because I was considering picking one up I saw at a salvation army for my game room but if it going to have the same problems as the newer tvs then I won't bother.

[CRTGAMER]

I have two HDCRT 4:3 Wegas and all the consoles display beautiful. The best feature is ALL the video inputs including the now obsolete SVideo. However there is no VGA though if you need that. You lose out on retro light gun support, but the gain of the HD for the newer consoles is worth it.

[bigbacon]

why do you lose light gun support on HD CRTs?

[PreZZ]

i have a toshiba 34' 16:9 crt and the thing is HUGE and HEAVY. It works well but I dont like having black bars when playing 4:3 games and screen geometry distortion makes 4:3 screen borders "wavy". But hey its a great solution for both current hd and past consoles, plus you dont have tv lag like plasma and lcd. And for some strange reason there's about half inch missing on each side when playin games in 16:9, you can notice it with game huds sometimes not fitting the tv. I prefer having a good 4:3 crt and a modern HD tv.

[Horsehead]

After doing some quick research, it seems that the BVM-20F1U is a popular model monitor for classic gaming. I found this one posted on Ebay...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Sony-BVM-20F1U-Trinitron-HR-20-Color-Studio-Video-Monitor-w-Analog-20D-SDI-/231057684162?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item35cc1c76c2

I was wondering if it was worth bidding on, considering it's screen is chipped? Is the screen repairable? Would it be worth it even if the screen wasn't damaged?

[PreZZ]

After doing some quick research, it seems that the BVM-20F1U is a popular model monitor for classic gaming. I found this one posted on Ebay...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Sony-BVM-20F1U-Trinitron-HR-20-Color-Studio-Video-Monitor-w-Analog-20D-SDI-/231057684162?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item35cc1c76c2

I was wondering if it was worth bidding on, considering it's screen is chipped? Is the screen repairable? Would it be worth it even if the screen wasn't damaged?

Just check your local ads and wait for a good deal, there is always a few of them that pop up sometimes on craiglist and you wont have to pay a crazy shipping price because they are big and heavy (just like regular crt's). I would never buy one from ebay thats for sure! Patience will pay off

[bigbacon]

why do you lose light gun support on HD CRTs?

[Horsehead]

Thank you for the excellent tip! Honestly the only reason I considered it is because my birthday is coming up soon and I'm trying to figure out what I am going to get myself. Haha!

[PreZZ]

Most are around 20", and the biggest available is the 29" you can see here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7IrZJrt7AXQ sorry its in french but you will see it in action. Im still punching myself in the face for not buying a brand new one for 200$ last year! but my 20" takes less space and games look incredible in person, especially 2d games on psone like symphony of the night and Astal on saturn. Good luck in finding one in good condition! You might try to contact someone working in the TV industry or hospital, sometimes they have some almost brand new in storage they want to get rid of or sell cheaply.

[CRTGAMER]

why do you lose light gun support on HD CRTs?

The scan rate is higher on HD CRTS versus regular tubes. For instance, the Dreamcast and PS2 Lightguns will pick up vertical but not horizontal on a HD CRT. However the Dreamcast Lightgun works great on a VGA CRT Monitor. The PS2 Lightgun can be made to work on ED CRTs but not HD CRTs since it has a 480p mode.

I go into detail here on different screens and Lightguns.

CRT vs LCD, Video Inputs, Lightguns on HD
www.racketboy.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=204314#p204314

[ReaXan]

Personally I find it better to buy CRT TV's with TruFlat or SDTV tech built after 2001 as they usually have plenty of RCA ports and both Component and S-Video so you can have the best picture quality possible for retro gaming. They also usually weight a lot less which is important if you happen to move a lot. I find them all the time at Goodwill for about 20-30 bucks and they are plentiful in the wild right now. Only con is the lightgun games which isn't a make or break thing for me, Some collectors it could be. The brands you pick after 2001 doesn't seem to matter even though I like Daewoo and Insignia TV's for some reason, Magnavox is also good. I got my father a 16:9 Panasonic TruFlat CRT circa 2005 and it even has an HDMI port. I don't think it's 720p but he praised the picture quality to no end.

Also I don't recommend the older TV's circa 1990-1995 as even the premium 32 inch Sony Trinitrons go out after a while and are a pain and half to move, especially if in an apartment,etc. Collectors really love Sony TV's for some reason but I have always had problems with them dating back to childhood. When I am CRT Hunting I try to find a TV that looks like it was used in an office setting as those usually seems to be the less worn out and are in better condition cosmetically.

[Rickstilwell1]

I have a Toshiba HD CRT that actually works with light guns. I tried the NES Zapper and I was able to play Duck Hunt just fine. I guess it all depends on the brand and the make with these things. The front panel is flat rather than curved but I guess it emits enough light for the gun to sense it. The colors on it are very vivid and bright. I'm glad I got this one for free from someone who was moving out at my apartment complex.

[Ed Oscuro]

Some HD TVs reportedly introduce lag; I'd stay away from them if you aren't using 480p. Any old CRT will do 480i which will serve you well most of the time.

I have a Toshiba HD CRT that actually works with light guns. [...] The front panel is flat rather than curved but I guess it emits enough light for the gun to sense it.
It's no surprise that the HD CRT works with lightguns. "Brightness" of the image isn't the problem. It's in scanline detection. Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Light_gun#Sequential_targets) has a good report on how this works.

Basically, either the system uses white flashes to determine hits, or the fade in brightness from the CRT's light-emitting surface after the scanline has passed it.

[Trebuken]

Not all HD CRT's are equal. I have a couple, and while I like both my JVC I'Art is obviously superior.

I suggest having one at any rate. If the price is good, don't let it go.

No reason you can't have a CRT and HD CRT. You may prefer some consoles on the CRT and other consoles on the HD CRT.

[CRTGAMER]

I have a Toshiba HD CRT that actually works with light guns. I tried the NES Zapper and I was able to play Duck Hunt just fine. I guess it all depends on the brand and the make with these things. The front panel is flat rather than curved but I guess it emits enough light for the gun to sense it. The colors on it are very vivid and bright. I'm glad I got this one for free from someone who was moving out at my apartment complex.Some HD TVs reportedly introduce lag; I'd stay away from them if you aren't using 480p. Any old CRT will do 480i which will serve you well most of the time.

It's no surprise that the HD CRT works with lightguns. "Brightness" of the image isn't the problem. It's in scanline detection. Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Light_gun#Sequential_targets) has a good report on how this works.

Basically, either the system uses white flashes to determine hits, or the fade in brightness from the CRT's light-emitting surface after the scanline has passed it.

I think you are both mistaken, take a look at my Guide linked in my previous Reply. Scanlines and Scanrate is the issue.

@ Rickstilwell1 - Model number of your Toshiba?

[Rickstilwell1]

I think you are both mistaken, take a look at my Guide linked in my previous Reply. Scanlines and Scanrate is the issue.

@ Rickstilwell1 - Model number of your Toshiba?

I haven't a clue where the model number is on it. It's hooked up and displaying a camcorder video transfer right now. I can't get back there and look all over the unit while I'm doing my project all day.

All I know is that it has component jacks in the back as well as S Video, and a flat surface instead of curved. It's the first HD CRT I have ever seen that accepted light guns. Its screen is 24 inches.

It looks like this one on Google images which someone labeled 24AF42

http://i.i.cbsi.com/cnwk.1d/sc/20680037-2-440-overview-1.gif

My 52" Sony HD CRT with component inputs doesn't work with any light guns.

There is also no input lag whatsoever on either of my HD CRTs.

[Ed Oscuro]

I think you are both mistaken, take a look at my Guide linked in my previous Reply. Scanlines and Scanrate is the issue.
Well, you're right that scanlines are an issue.

But think about this: Just because it's an HD set doesn't mean it will upscale or line-double the output - which possibly could throw a lightgun off. HD CRT sets should almost still display SD content as 240p or 480i given the correct signal. If they do have some kind of motion interpolation / deinterlacing / etc. modes then you would want to turn those off, of course.

Depending on the game and the lightgun type it seems that the white-flash method used with the Zapper might well work with even LCDs (if the LCD updates quickly enough), but anything that uses scanline timing is right out.

[Videogamerdaryll]

I just wanted to say,Thank you for this topic..very informative..

[Neb6]

If you're planning to use consoles from around the era of the Dreamcast and earlier, I'd say just go for a standard-definition 4:3 CRT (a nice one like a Trinitron).

Those older consoles can't do 16:9 or HD resolution anyway.

CRTs are ideal for retro gaming. In the 8-bit days, programmers used to design their pixel art to take advantage of the blur and other artifacts that are inherent to CRTs. For example, try taking a photo of the ship from Galaga on a stock CRT. It looks pretty amazing. Compare that to what you see on a screen-capture from an emulator on a monitor.

LCD and LED screens are often a problem since they tend to prefer a specific resolution. Anything that doesn't match up can look a bit odd as it doesn't fit the TV's 'grid'. Plus, contrast levels can sometimes be crushed on LCDs and LED screens and extreme viewing angles can have dramatic contrast variances.

If you decide to go with a flat TV, plasma is an option since they use circles instead of rectangles (circles = good for retro gaming).

[CRTGAMER]

I haven't a clue where the model number is on it. It's hooked up and displaying a camcorder video transfer right now. I can't get back there and look all over the unit while I'm doing my project all day.

All I know is that it has component jacks in the back as well as S Video, and a flat surface instead of curved. It's the first HD CRT I have ever seen that accepted light guns. Its screen is 24 inches.

It looks like this one on Google images which someone labeled 24AF42

http://i.i.cbsi.com/cnwk.1d/sc/20680037-2-440-overview-1.gif

My 52" Sony HD CRT with component inputs doesn't work with any light guns.

There is also no input lag whatsoever on either of my HD CRTs.

FST Flat screen for a tube tv does not mean HD, just a more flat glass compared to older tubes. There are 4:3 HD tubes, but your 24 inch CRT is not a HD tube. You have a standard 480i tube with component input, the reason why your older Lightguns work.

I have a preference of HD tubes, works great for HD and non HD consoles. Also it is more forgiving for TV stations that put out in standard definition, none of the upscale artifacting of newer LCDs.

[theclaw]

I'm skeptical, having never owned a direct view CRT with TV tuner that accepts above 480i.
The thought is just too alien from my limited experience for me to fathom whether in person they quite capture the hailed look and feel retro games were known for.

[Ed Oscuro]

Those older consoles can't do 16:9 or HD resolution anyway.
Actually, many do support 16:9 via their games. Goldeneye supports a 16:9 mode. It depends on the set either being 16:9 or supporting a 16:9 pillarboxed mode.

EDTV should support 480p (576p in Europe).

Finally, flat screen Trinitrons (for example) are difficult to set up properly if the lines have drifted at all. Thankfully there's a service mode for most problems. Regular curved screens aren't as difficult to work with.

I love my flat screen Trinitron though. Brilliant color even after I took out the red push (which was more like "solid red bleeds all over the place").