Dreamcast edges out PS2?

[Neb6]

Take a look at the "Instructions Per Second" and "Real-world polygon" categories on this chart. If this is accurate, then it looks like the Dreamcast may just outperform the PS2 in the areas that really matter to game performance:

http://wars.locopuyo.com/cwsystemspecsold.php

[Gameguy]

It's too bad with all that better performance the Dreamcast still lacked the amount of good games which is what really matters.

[GhostDog]

It's too bad with all that better performance the Dreamcast still lacked the amount of good games which is what really matters.

The Dreamcast was really supported for two years tops from SEGA and the best third party developers so you can't fault the system too bad. For the time it was supported it had a bunch of good games and I would have loved to see what the premier developers could have squeezed out of the Dreamcast graphically. Shenmue came out a little over a year after the Dreamcast launched in the U.S. even though it had been in development for a while but I would have loved to see what developers could have done had the system been supported five or six years. It's such a shame the Dreamcast never realized its full potential.

[Rickstilwell1]

Yeah that's true. Generally as a rule it seems with any system the oldest games have the lowest graphics and the later games on the system have the best because developers have more practice or have had more time to work on the art aspects of the project. That means Dreamcast graphics could have been so much better than they were ultimately.

[RP2A03]

Take a look at the "Instructions Per Second" and "Real-world polygon" categories on this chart. If this is accurate, then it looks like the Dreamcast may just outperform the PS2 in the areas that really matter to game performance:

http://wars.locopuyo.com/cwsystemspecsold.php


Those polygon figures don't seem right. The GameCube hit 20 million per second with Rogue Squadron III, I believe PS2 hit around 12 million per second, and that 40 million per second figure for the Xbox seems absurdly high. Also, The instructions per second figures are either wack or they don't matter that much; there is not that much of a difference in the capabilities between the Xbox and GCN.

[PreZZ]

It's too bad with all that better performance the Dreamcast still lacked the amount of good games which is what really matters.

????? Dreamcast library was better in every genre of games than the ps2 until it died. Fighters, rpg, fps, sports, action, racing, you name it dreamcast had better games.

[Gameguy]

The Dreamcast was really supported for two years tops from SEGA and the best third party developers so you can't fault the system too bad. For the time it was supported it had a bunch of good games and I would have loved to see what the premier developers could have squeezed out of the Dreamcast graphically. Shenmue came out a little over a year after the Dreamcast launched in the U.S. even though it had been in development for a while but I would have loved to see what developers could have done had the system been supported five or six years. It's such a shame the Dreamcast never realized its full potential.
I'm sure it would have been better if it had lasted longer, so I don't fully blame them for the lack of good games. Still if Shenmue is the best game on the system, you can see why it failed. At best Shenmue is a failed art house experiment, with horrible voice acting but unlike Resident Evil the cheesiness doesn't work. A bad horror film is way more entertaining than a bad art house film. The games were decent but I don't consider there to be any games worth buying a system just to play, the good games are the type you'd pick up if you already owned a system and found them cheap, none are system sellers on par with the original Sonic the Hedgehog, Phantasy Star, Legend of Zelda, Tetris, etc. Those were pretty groundbreaking when those came out, and lots of fun. Dreamcast games were just decent.

I picked up a Dreamcast really just to play Shenmue, I kept the console and a few other games around until I found a copy of Shenmue for cheap. I sold all my Dreamcast stuff shortly afterwards and don't plan on getting another one, not unless it's a really cheap find with a bunch of bundled games.


????? Dreamcast library was better in every genre of games than the ps2 until it died. Fighters, rpg, fps, sports, action, racing, you name it dreamcast had better games.
I'll give you a point for that, I could accept that the Dreamcast had better games compared to the PS2 up until it died. But I personally don't believe the PS2 had great games until after the Dreamcast died, for example Metal Gear Solid 2 only came out in November 2001. The main reason to own a PS2 at that point was to have a DVD player. If the Dreamcast could play DVDs it might have had a chance until it could find a proper footing.

Here's a list of early PS2 games, how many would you really still play today?
http://www.digitpress.com/forum/showthread.php?48533-Here-is-a-list-of-the-earliest-PS2-games

After that point when the PS2 started getting good games, then it was worth buying to actually play games. It was no longer just a DVD player. The Dreamcast never made it to this point, it died and stayed mediocre.

[eskobar]

Just look at what Namco did in only 7 months with Soul Calibur ... launch title and one of the best games on the system and a tech wonder !

[Andreas]

Imho You're turning things around to suit yourself if you just take a look at the pure hardware specifications.

The dreamcast hardware was gorgeous. We don't need to discuss about that. But the dreamcast operating system was shit like hell. If you wanted to develop games with netplay or online features you were forced to develop on Windows CE which access to the hardware was limited. The controller was also a huge disadvantage of the hardware. Only six buttons and one analog stick?!

The dreamcast didn't failed because of the consumers and it didn't failed because of the games. The only reason was SEGA itself.

[fahlim003]

There are often rumors the PS2 couldn't do Shenmue due to video RAM being in disparity. Honestly, I don't think the PS2 is any worse off for not doing so as Shenmue is nowhere near the "best" Dreamcast game although it is cited often.

Looking at the list of early PS2 games I only see a couple I own: Gradius 3/4, Sky Odyssey, and Tekken Tag Tournament and they're all quite good. Others on the list are still good depending on ones preferences but is not the stellar quality that the system would see in later 2001 and beyond. The Dreamcast isn't lack in good games but there is an obvious bias for arcade type games in which popularity was waning. Even the predecessor the Saturn had an arcade heavy line (Japan mostly) but still pushed out some superb console exclusive efforts (although in Japan or near the end of life). The CEs on Dreamcast are quite few and as shown they are often led by Shenmue which is a common and tired example. If you're lazy or cliched substitute with Sonic Adventure or...

[Nature Boy]

????? Dreamcast library was better in every genre of games than the ps2 until it died. Fighters, rpg, fps, sports, action, racing, you name it dreamcast had better games.

That's totally a matter of opinion. I think the Dreamcast library stinks personally.

Looking at hardware specs, especially well after the fact, seems silly, maybe even trollish?

Who cares if the DC was better than the PS2 in terms of specs or vice versa? The games themselves is all that should ever matter. Lots will like the DC games better. Lots will like the PS2 games better.

[Neb6]

Those polygon figures don't seem right. The GameCube hit 20 million per second with Rogue Squadron III, I believe PS2 hit around 12 million per second, and that 40 million per second figure for the Xbox seems absurdly high. Also, The instructions per second figures are either wack or they don't matter that much; there is not that much of a difference in the capabilities between the Xbox and GCN.

I too think the numbers are somewhat 'approximate'. I've had the Dreamcast, PS2, GameCube, and original XBOX all hooked up to the same Trinitron with the same switchbox for years now and here's what I see (again, this is qualitative and subjective and it doesn't mean I'm right; it's just what I perceive based on doing 3D modeling since 1994):

- XBOX (classic -- if you want to call it that) and the GameCube are similar, but I'm guessing the XBOX is cranking out about 1.5 times the polygons per second. Using the number that you quoted for the Cube, that puts the XBOX at around 30 million 3-sided polys per sec and the Cube at a peak of around 20 million.

- PS2 and Dreamcast were the big surprise for me. The more I look at the real in-game performance of the two systems, the more they look -- well -- the same really. There are a few cases where I'm hard-pressed to tell the difference. I think maybe God Of War on the PS2 was one of the instances where I could safely say that the PS2 had exceeded what I've seen on the Dreamcast. I've seen quotes of in-game real polygon rendering of 13 million tris per second on the PS2. Perhaps that's possible? I'd like to get some direct quotes from developers that actually pushed the hardware.

As for Dreamcast games.... For my taste in gaming, the DC has great games and for that I'll cite:
- Soul Calibur
- Rez
- Bangai-o
- Ikaruga
- Space Channel 5
- Virtua Tennis
- Flag to Flag/Super Speed Racing
- Crazy Taxi
- Worms Armageddon (okay, not a power game. Fun though).


And yes, the PS2 has tons of good games too (of course).

At the end of the day, the stats on paper don't mean much. The true test is what does the machine do when all the options are switched on and the system is rendering while dealing with interrupt requests like controller input, audio, and loading.

[Rickstilwell1]

Even compare Soul Reaver 1 on Dremacast to Soul Reaver 2 on PS2. There is a big improvement in graphics there.

[Neb6]

Not sure if this helps or not. Above and beyond contrast/exposure settings (whether a product of the renderer or the way the images were captured), at least polygon detail can be compared. In both cases, it looks like the same number or polygons were used for each of the models. Of course, it could be that one set of models is created and then imported into each rendering engine.... Just a guess. Anyway, the two systems yield very similar results in this example:

http://forum.outerspace.terra.com.br/index.php?threads/face-off-dead-or-alive-2-dreamcast-vs-playstation-2.263385/

[PreZZ]

Even compare Soul Reaver 1 on Dremacast to Soul Reaver 2 on PS2. There is a big improvement in graphics there.

No shit Sherlock! Of course it is, soul reaver was a ps1 port to dreamcast, SR2 was made for ps2...

[Rickstilwell1]

No shit Sherlock! Of course it is, soul reaver was a ps1 port to dreamcast, SR2 was made for ps2...

The Dreamcast port of Soul Reaver 1 was still leaps and bounds better looking than the Playstation version. So that's not really an excuse. Also compare the original Sonic Adventure games to the Gamecube versions. Big difference as well.

[Ed Oscuro]

The Dreamcast port of Soul Reaver 1 was still leaps and bounds better looking than the Playstation version. So that's not really an excuse.
Raise your hand if you think game developers make all new assets for cheap money ports! LOL

Also compare the original Sonic Adventure games to the Gamecube versions. Big difference as well.
That's not the topic though.

Anyway - yeah I'm on board with a few observations in the thread:

1) DC library doesn't really impress overall
2) PS2 developers had plenty of years longer to develop new techniques and use new tools
3) GameCube is the system that was far ahead of its time. A little over a year later and it can do real-time lighting that I don't think the Dreamcast could do and which the PS2 often doesn't, as an example. Xbox, of course, was far ahead of any of those but that's hardly a surprise given its bulk.

The DCs I've used are quite loud, while the final revision of the PS2 slim is quiet - before it heats up and spins the fan. DC hardware could've been improved over generations if it'd been allowed to live longer just as the PS2 hardware did. Still, disc access on the DC seems very loud to me. Not as bad as recent Xbox 360s though!

I don't know about Windows CE being a real roadblock to success. It seems the hardware still is programmed at the low level like every other console game (and unlike PC games) and that Windows CE mainly provided APIs for some functions like the networking.

Agreed with Neb6's views on the systems' relative merits. It is easy to get bewildered by fancy looks and miss the technical merits of each. Devil May Cry's environments are amazing but in many ways you have to admit you can't directly compare that to an open world game with expansive environments. I have noticed that the Dreamcast to GC ports I've played had glaring technical demerits held over from the original platform - Resident Evil: Code Veronica X generally, and Phantasy Star Online Ep 1 & 2's absurdly limited draw distance (and that coupled with the low-poly, low-detail look of the game). Super Mario Sunshine is far ahead of that technically.

[SuperEliteGamer]

????? Dreamcast library was better in every genre of games than the ps2 until it died. Fighters, rpg, fps, sports, action, racing, you name it dreamcast had better games.

LOL.
What?
*Jackie Chan face*

[PreZZ]

LOL.
What?
*Jackie Chan face*

Were you in diapers in 99 or did you play both? It's a well known fact that dreamcast had a better library in the first 2 years of ps2 before it died. http://ca.ign.com/articles/2000/10/28/dreamcast-deathmatch-bring-it-on-ps2

[Haoie]

The Lynx outperformed the Gameboy too.

And that pretty much turned out the same way.

[Ed Oscuro]

It's a well known fact that dreamcast had a better library in the first 2 years of ps2 before it died. http://ca.ign.com/articles/2000/10/28/dreamcast-deathmatch-bring-it-on-ps2
A bit of perspective is waiting for you in that article:

You may say "But these are 1st generation PS2 titles, and Dreamcast is on what, its 3rd?" But the fact is, it's not about what games were made when, it's about which games are the best today, and thus, worth your hard-earned money.

[BlastProcessing402]

The Lynx outperformed the Gameboy too.

And that pretty much turned out the same way.

Battery life had a LOT to do with GB's success there. Lynx, much like GameGear, sucked batteries like a 2 dollar whore during shore leave. You pretty much had to have an AC adapter to make it worth having, which kinda defeated the whole handheld thing.

Not saying it was the only reason, but a big one nonetheless.

[wiggyx]

It's too bad with all that better performance the Dreamcast still lacked the amount of good games which is what really matters.

Uh, no :/

[j_factor]

I really don't think those specs are anywhere near accurate. Dreamcast edges out PS2 in some areas, especially when it comes to texturing. But not polygon counts. There are some really obvious errors in there too; for example, under "main processor" he lists the PS2's CPU, but the DC's GPU.

Personally I think the Dreamcast had a good library, and an absolutely phenomenal one when you take into consideration the overall size of its library, length of time it was a current system, and overall level of support it received. A lot of its "lesser" games are fun little gems that never got their due.

[Wraith Storm]

In line with what j_factor said. The Dreamcast certainly has the advantage over PS2 in certain areas, but overall PS2 was a more powerful system.

The DC had TWICE (8MB) the amount of dedicated Video RAM than PS2 (4MB), and therefore the DC could provide much better and more varied textures. However the PS2 had TWICE (32MB) the amount of total system RAM than the DC (16MB) so it could handel large expansive environments better and have a lot more things happening at once.

These are cited reasons why games like Unreal tournament look a bit better on the DC (Especially using the VGA box) but modes like Assault (If memory serves correctly) were dropped from the game because of the large environments and all the characters wheras the PS2 version has the Assault mode.

I wish the Dreamcast had got an additional year or two under its belt before Sega pulled the plug. It had so much untapped power. Its the only system I am aware of that doubled its listed Polygon performance. When the system launched it was said that the DC could push 3 million texture mapped polygons per second. By the time Shenmue 2 was released it was pushing 6 million! Quite impressive from the compact little box!

And the DCs game library is amazing IMO!!!

[PreZZ]

The dreamcast is the best video game console I have owned, it's graphics and online capabilities were revolutionary. I don't get why a lot of you say it has a shit library, I firmly believe that it has one of the most unique and rich library in quality, that are still enjoyable by today's standards too. RPG: Skies of Arcadia, Grandia 2, Phantasy Star online, Record of Lodoss war. Racing games: MSR, TD Le Mans, F355 challenge, Daytona, Sega rally2. Puzzle: Chuchu rocket, bomberman online. Action games: Crazi taxi,Shenmue, Headhunter, Jet set radio, toy commander. Platformers:Rayman 2, MDK 2, Sonic adventure. Sports: nfl 2k2, nba 2k2, nhl 2k2, virtua tennis 2k2 Fighters and shmups: too many to mention, if you like those dreamcast is heaven. And it had also a lot of weird, fun and unique games like Samba de amigo, typing of the dead, seaman, spache channel 5, rez. Also some of them with accessories like bass fishing with the rod, samba with the maracas, Virtua on with the twin stick, typing with the keyboard were a lot of fun. I can play all these games today, they mostly have all aged well and still a blast. Dreamcast was supported only 3 years and Sega kept releasing games every single week it was crazy, I bought 2 games a week between 99 and 2002, something I have never done for other consoles since DC. I cant believe a lot of you, classic retro gamers, are bashing this amazing system. I can understand someone bashing 32X, SMS, genesis, saturn, sega cd, but dreamcast?

[FrankSerpico]

Part of the problem with rating the DC library after the fact is that most of its best games were ported to other consoles. If we're talking comparing it against the PS2 library in 2001 or even into 2002, then yeah only a mindless fanboy would say the PS2 has better games. However even as a Dreamcast partisan I'd have to say that overall sitting here in 2013 the PS2 probably has the best library of any console, ever.

[o.pwuaioc]

It's too bad with all that better performance the Dreamcast still lacked the amount of good games which is what really matters.

I've counted 43 DC games that interest me (excluding some other popular genres that I don't care for, like Sonic Adventure, Power Stone, or any mech game). While that's not PS2 levels, it beats both the GameCube and the Xbox, and is respectable in and of itself, especially considering some of these games are just superb. Moreover, new awesome games continue to be made for it. Dux 1.5, Last Hope: Pink Bullets, GunLord, Fast Striker 1.5, STURMWIND (which beats just about any PS2 shmup), and the soon to be released ReDux and NEO XYX prove the system is more than capable and has phenomenal games, too.

And this is coming from a Nintendo fan, a guy who has five times (literally, exactly) as many PS2 games as he has DC games, and one who rates the DC less favorably than either the Genesis or Saturn. I only really got into it a couple years ago, but ever since doing so, I've been very, very impressed.

[j_factor]

Part of the problem with rating the DC library after the fact is that most of its best games were ported to other consoles.

A lot of those ports are not so good. Also you could argue the same thing for PS2.

[fahlim003]

A lot of those ports are not so good. Also you could argue the same thing for PS2.

A few games that made the jump from Dreamcast to PS2 were downgrades. F355 Challenge, Echo the Dolphin, and Marvel vs Capcom 2 (if only barely worse on PS2). Street Fighter 3 Third Strike was better on PS2 although quite a few years later. There's also Dead or Alive 2, Capcom vs SNK 2, Space Channel 5, Resident Evil Code Veronica, Crazy Taxi, Headhunter, and many others that made the jump and often enough I've heard Dreamcast is usually preferred yet I cannot speak to having extensively played many DC-PS2 games pardon the first four I mention.

I suppose it boils down to the conversion team handling the game as much as the system the game goes to. Perhaps the Dreamcast had an edge being a development friendly system with great specs over the previous generation which led to seeing nice improvements on games like Re-Volt, Hydro Thunder, and Bust-A-Move 4 (albeit marginally).

I too find there are more appealing games on the Dreamcast than say the Xbox or GameCube. For the limited time it was around it pushed out a lot of quality.

[Guyra]

As for Dreamcast games.... For my taste in gaming, the DC has great games and for that I'll cite:
- Soul Calibur
- Rez
- Bangai-o
- Ikaruga
- Space Channel 5
- Virtua Tennis
- Flag to Flag/Super Speed Racing
- Crazy Taxi
- Worms Armageddon (okay, not a power game. Fun though).


Just want to mention that this list isn't really good for showing that the DC had great games in comparison to other consoles. (I don't doubt it has got a lot of great games, but I just want to point this out. :) ) The reason is that Flag to Flag/Super Speed Racing is the only game in that list that is exclusive to the Dreamcast.

Rez, Space Channel 5, and Crazy Taxi were all released on the PS2 as well.

Space Channel 5 Part 2 was also released outside of Japan for the PS2, but not for the DC.
Although it didn't have the first, Virtua Tennis 2 was also on the PS2. The same goes for Soul Calibur, as the PS2 got Soul Calibur II and III.
Worms Armageddon was released on the PS1, and so it could also be played on the PS2.

And the remaining titles I haven't commented on were all released on other systems(N64, Gamecube, Xbox, etc.).

[Tupin]

I know this is a matter of personal opinion, but the Dreamcast is better aesthetically designed than the original PS2 IMO.

If the Dreamcast had DVD playback, I think it would have honestly held its own for a few years. It would have been like the Xbox though, and they would have released the next generation really early, like Holiday 2004 or 2005. By then, it would have been pushed to its limit.

[Ed Oscuro]

BEHOLD, RAW ULTIMATE DC POWER:
http://forum.beyond3d.com/showpost.php?p=1158710&postcount=23
i can't handle all this power

Dreamcast is better designed than the PS2...except for its controller and not being designed to accommodate a PC hard drive, y'know. On that count PS2 easily edges it out.
PS2 slim is pretty nice and very easy to fit into most entertainment setups. I'm a big fan of the "spread it out horizontally" design for removing heat, rather than having a bunch of devices sitting one on top of the other inside a plastic case (although the Xbox was definitely the worst about this - put the hard drive immediately above the CPU, wat?)

[j_factor]

A few games that made the jump from Dreamcast to PS2 were downgrades. F355 Challenge, Echo the Dolphin, and Marvel vs Capcom 2 (if only barely worse on PS2). Street Fighter 3 Third Strike was better on PS2 although quite a few years later. There's also Dead or Alive 2, Capcom vs SNK 2, Space Channel 5, Resident Evil Code Veronica, Crazy Taxi, Headhunter, and many others that made the jump and often enough I've heard Dreamcast is usually preferred yet I cannot speak to having extensively played many DC-PS2 games pardon the first four I mention.

Not always, but they were usually better on Dreamcast. Another one that comes to mind is Grandia II, which was awful on PS2. But I would say it's true regardless of the other system, not just for PS2. For example, the Gamecube version of Crazy Taxi isn't so hot (a bit better than the PS2 port though).

On the other side of the coin, the vast majority of games that were on PS2 and another system were worse on PS2.

[Wraith Storm]

Thanks for the link Ed.

I always love tech threads. Its interesting to hear that Shenmue II actually had some Bump Mapping/Normal Mapping. The first time I ever even heard that tearm was when the first Xbox was released. Since, I have heard of DC games using the effect sparingly. I believe I once heard that Lemans on the DC used the effect or something similar for the grass.

[treismac]

Personally I think the Dreamcast had a good library, and an absolutely phenomenal one when you take into consideration the overall size of its library, length of time it was a current system, and overall level of support it received. A lot of its "lesser" games are fun little gems that never got their due.

This was what tipped me over the fence to decide to buy a Dreamcast. I don't need a system to be packed with blockbuster games to merit its place in my collection. Interesting games like Space Channel 5, Power Stone 1 & 2, and Crazy Taxi 2 may not go down in the annals of gaming as some of the greats, but they are great for what they are- unique bursts of video game fun. Throw in the VMU, the whole lot of Capcom fighters, and the ease of burning games and the system has more than enough awesomeness to go around. Also, I really enjoy the controller despite the criticism it receives for only having *gasp* six buttons.

[fahlim003]

Not always, but they were usually better on Dreamcast. Another one that comes to mind is Grandia II, which was awful on PS2. But I would say it's true regardless of the other system, not just for PS2. For example, the Gamecube version of Crazy Taxi isn't so hot (a bit better than the PS2 port though).

On the other side of the coin, the vast majority of games that were on PS2 and another system were worse on PS2.

I was thinking about Grandia 2 as well, but it falls among the later games I later mentioned with not knowing enough or even played enough of either version to say whether it's better/worse on one system over the other. Somehow I thought Grandia 2 was changed considerably (Grandia Xtreme) but maybe that's due to confusing the fact there are several Grandias on PS2 to begin with. Speaking of Crazy Taxi it was my understanding that was the best version available equaling if not besting the DC original.

[xelement5x]

I was thinking about Grandia 2 as well, but it falls among the later games I later mentioned with not knowing enough or even played enough of either version to say whether it's better/worse on one system over the other. Somehow I thought Grandia 2 was changed considerably (Grandia Xtreme) but maybe that's due to confusing the fact there are several Grandias on PS2 to begin with. Speaking of Crazy Taxi it was my understanding that was the best version available equaling if not besting the DC original.

Grandia 2 is much worse on the PS2. I have both versions, and you can tell while playing that the DC version was very well written for the system, while the port was a rush job.

[Neb6]

Just want to mention that this list isn't really good for showing that the DC had great games in comparison to other consoles. (I don't doubt it has got a lot of great games, but I just want to point this out. :) ) The reason is that Flag to Flag/Super Speed Racing is the only game in that list that is exclusive to the Dreamcast.

Rez, Space Channel 5, and Crazy Taxi were all released on the PS2 as well.

Space Channel 5 Part 2 was also released outside of Japan for the PS2, but not for the DC.
Although it didn't have the first, Virtua Tennis 2 was also on the PS2. The same goes for Soul Calibur, as the PS2 got Soul Calibur II and III.
Worms Armageddon was released on the PS1, and so it could also be played on the PS2.

And the remaining titles I haven't commented on were all released on other systems(N64, Gamecube, Xbox, etc.).

I don't recall ever saying that the Dreamcast has a better (or totally unique) library of games. I just said that it has lots of great games (and I also said the PS2 does too). However, now that you've commented on it, I ought to mention that Soul Calibur on the Dreamcast blows Soul Calibur II on the PS2 out of the water. And AFAIK other platforms had to wait quite a while for Crazy Taxi and Ikaruga. As for Rez, that one was developed by SEGA and licensed for Sony's use on the PS2.