Kickstarter for a high quality, public domain photo gallery of video game hardware

[Evan]

Hi, I'm a photographer that has been taking high-quality, public domain images of video game hardware for the past three years. I host my work on Wikimedia and my images are used in Wikipedia articles, where they then spread throughout the internet.

I have a Kickstarter because I want to expand and refine the gallery that I currently have. You can find more information out here:

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1699256938/the-vanamo-online-game-museum

I'm just asking you guys to check it out and judge for yourself. There's a real need for high quality, professionally-taken photos of these consoles, especially older ones. I give all of my work away for free because it's the best way to help the community. I hope you guys consider it.

Evan

[Bojay1997]

I'm not following why you need to collect donations to purchase consoles that you would then own. Why not just reach out to local collectors to lend you those consoles for the photography sessions?

[Evan]

I'm not following why you need to collect donations to purchase consoles that you would then own. Why not just reach out to local collectors to lend you those consoles for the photography sessions?

Most of the photos that I already have were taken with collaborations with collectors over the years. This gallery already includes many systems and rare items:

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Evan-Amos/VideoGames

The problem arises because taking the photos can be a lengthy process that includes cleaning and setting up shots. What happens when taking photos with collectors is that I have limited time and tend to only do a basic console and controller shot before moving on. The gallery that I'm looking to create includes multiple angles and console breakdowns, which can take hours to shoot for one console. The only feasible way to achieve this output is by owning consoles given the massive amount of time it would require.

After the weeks or months it takes to make the galleries, I am looking to do something with that physical collection, which is why I'm working with the NYU Game Center and ICHEG to house and display the items. I would rather have the items in a space where they can be seen or used rather than in a box in storage.

[Ed Oscuro]

I have done (just for my own amusement) some of the exact same work you have here, and I recognize the challenges you face (although even I, with my propsensity for manufacturing grandiose plans I don't expend the energy to use, am somewhat bewildered by the grandiose scope of this project).

I don't want to belittle your work because it's well done and much appreciated - but this comes down to a matter of using other peoples' money. I don't see a compelling answer to the questions this raises.

Why should other people put their money towards this when (as your description seems to indicate) it raises the possibility you will give you consoles (or the money from selling them after the fact)? You need to be more explicit about this because the wiggle room in "working with museums to put things on display" (for how long? What if you decide you want to sell items?) makes people uneasy. Putting things on display for a few weeks is not going to be a good return on the donator's investment or a good legacy for museums and so on. What's wrong with just working with donators to arrange items to be sent back and forth? That would surely be a more efficient use of a donator's funds, and I don't think it would be especially hard to arrange to get good quality items. (But frankly, some of us would prefer not to donate items but take photos of them ourselves - and this is another area that is an issue; this whole aspect of "artistic vision" is fine, but it locks the whole project into being dependent on a single person to execute the whole plan, which is not how Wikipedia has gotten to be great, for example. And some of the aspects of the goal of making a well-rounded online museum, like writing articles, are not served by this limited format.)

I am of two minds about this. On the one side it's really easy to be snide and say "there's sure a lot of people asking for money to do things other enthusiasts are doing just as well for free." On the other hand I don't resent the idea of following a dream and getting paid to do good work - after all that's what academia and the arts are about.

Finally, it's 2013 and you're not using a tilt-shift lens with your camera?

[Evan]

As far as the "there's sure a lot of people asking for money to do things other enthusiasts are doing just as well for free" I can say that this is not the case. Before I started uploading pictures to Wikipedia, the state of pictures for most video game consoles was simply terrible. And this counts across the entire internet, not just Wikipedia. Even if people are taking pictures, like you did, then they do nothing with them or don't make them available.

The biggest reason that I do this work is because I know that it fills a need that isn't being met by others.

[Ed Oscuro]

I think you've got a point there, and thanks for not nuking me from orbit for my impudent comments. I mainly wanted to list that as a kind recognition of the knee-jerk reaction that some people (including myself) have. It might not be right but that is one of the perceptions you will have to deal with.

I also realized, after I posted my comment, that the Kickstarter format seems to lend itself more to buying things than to funding something over the long term like academia does. So a scholar or an artist might get a MacArthur Genius Grant, because those are areas that have been relatively well-protected by philanthrophy for decades. I bet that somebody with a career in history might find it easier to fund something like this and go through those channels. I do think my comments above still apply, but I want to figure out if there's a way to blend doing the best thing by investors and in terms of getting paid for what you'd actually be doing.

As I see it, what you are actually selling (if you are selling something) is not "buy consoles" but "pay me for my energy and experience in this area." That is fine; I just don't know if the goal works perfectly well, and as I mentioned with the selling thing, the way this is set up will invite some skepticism. Having the logo of Archive.org and mentioning the institutions is impressive, but I don't see that the connection is solid enough there. The angle of preserving a collection would probably be more understandable if it was done in a more conventional way. At the same time if you go ahead and donate everything to a collection, people have basically donated to a Kickstarter and not gotten the satisfaction of having some recognition from the institution that will house the items they bought. It just looks like an awkward process from the standpoint of the potential backer.

I am really quite unaware of how successful Kickstarter has been as an alternative to those traditional routes of preserving history, though, so maybe I'm missing lots here.

It's definitely true that the whole production process is a drag. I like the technical aspects of shooting but I really just love observing the things themselves, and photography helps me visualize that personally. The "extra" steps like spending huge amounts of time on setup, in post-production, or uploading pictures, have garnered less enthusiasm from me.

One final comment here: It's not clear to me where the line sits here between fine art and actual history. You've gone after this with the eye and techniques of a product photographer. This captures the imagination and makes many people interested again in things from long ago. But in terms of detail, I think that many of them are suited pretty well by simple exterior photos. Break-down photos are an intriguing idea but that probably has to be a labor of love. In terms of raw history, there's of course lots of "good enough" cellphone pics and things out there that a hobbyist doing repairs or mods can follow, and as a concrete aid to history that's probably all that is needed. It's a difficult question.

[MarioMania]

So you're talking other people money just for a public domain site, So you could show off other peoples collections?

[Ed Oscuro]

So you're talking other people money just for a public domain site, So you could show off other peoples collections?
^ This is exactly the kind of impression I am talking about. Best to be explicit about the goals so people can decide if it's worthwhile or not.

Not sure MarioMania's take is 100% accurate but it seems to be close.

[MarioMania]

People already throwing Money at him

[Greg2600]

Seems pretty explicit to me. His images are free to use, and he just doesn't want to buy the hardware. He is going to donate the hardware when completed.

[Bojay1997]

Seems pretty explicit to me. His images are free to use, and he just doesn't want to buy the hardware. He is going to donate the hardware when completed.

Maybe before you post you should take the time to read exactly what his Kickstarter states explicitly -

"Creating the physical archive is a necessity to create the media galleries, but what happens to it after that? The last thing I want is such an archive to sit in storage, so I'm working with the NYU Game Centerand The International Center for the History of Electronic Games to help house and display parts of the collection. These items collected for the museum will be available to students and the community.".

Nothing there about donating all of the hardware when this is complete. It simply says he will work with two unrelated archives to help house and display parts of the collection. The museum and the hardware remains his. Frankly, ICHEG has multiples of all of these machines, so I'm not following why he wouldn't just work with them to get access to what he needs. Honestly, if he was looking to raise money for studio time or even to reimburse collectors for shipping costs and insurance for the time he is borrowing their gear, I wouldn't have an issue, but I can't see funding a private collection via Kickstarter just because he is going to make photos of that private collection public. Heck, almost every collector here could make the same argument as there is literally a dedicated section of the site devoted to collection photos.

[JSoup]

Given the end goal, I think I'd rather donate directly to Wikimedia. In the past, donations have gone to supplying the project with resources for filling out articles that had no images or sound files.

[TheRedEye]

As an editor who has used your photography in countless articles, both printed and digital, you have my support. You do excellent work.

EDIT: In fact, that's my Gamasutra article with the Odyssey 1 image on your campaign page!

[Greg2600]

Maybe before you post you should take the time to read exactly what his Kickstarter states explicitly -

"Creating the physical archive is a necessity to create the media galleries, but what happens to it after that? The last thing I want is such an archive to sit in storage, so I'm working with the NYU Game Centerand The International Center for the History of Electronic Games to help house and display parts of the collection. These items collected for the museum will be available to students and the community.".

Nothing there about donating all of the hardware when this is complete. It simply says he will work with two unrelated archives to help house and display parts of the collection. The museum and the hardware remains his. Frankly, ICHEG has multiples of all of these machines, so I'm not following why he wouldn't just work with them to get access to what he needs. Honestly, if he was looking to raise money for studio time or even to reimburse collectors for shipping costs and insurance for the time he is borrowing their gear, I wouldn't have an issue, but I can't see funding a private collection via Kickstarter just because he is going to make photos of that private collection public. Heck, almost every collector here could make the same argument as there is literally a dedicated section of the site devoted to collection photos.

Who cares if he keeps the hardware or not? The point was that he explicitly said what he planned to do with them, none of which included him selling them. You whined about him not saying what he would do with the stuff. This guy is a photog in Brooklyn, so I can bet he lives in a small living space and doesn't have room for all this "bounty" as it is. Perhaps ICHEG will not want him disassembling their hardware?


As an editor who has used your photography in countless articles, both printed and digital, you have my support. You do excellent work.

EDIT: In fact, that's my Gamasutra article with the Odyssey 1 image on your campaign page!

Didn't you get the memo that no one is permitted to support a KS on this forum?

[Bojay1997]

Who cares if he keeps the hardware or not? The point was that he explicitly said what he planned to do with them, none of which included him selling them. You whined about him not saying what he would do with the stuff. This guy is a photog in Brooklyn, so I can bet he lives in a small living space and doesn't have room for all this "bounty" as it is. Perhaps ICHEG will not want him disassembling their hardware?



Didn't you get the memo that no one is permitted to support a KS on this forum?

As a potential donor it matters to me and obviously I'm not alone given the other comments here and on other forums. I didn't "whine" about anything. I stated a fact that what you claimed he said explicitly (i.e. "He is going to donate the hardware when completed") is not in fact what he said.

There are lots of photography and similar artistic projects on Kickstarter and I'm not aware of a single one where the donors were asked to pay for someone to acquire a collection to photograph. What if this guy was a really amazing luxury car photographer? Would you kick in to let him buy a fleet of high end vehicles no strings attached?

I'm not willing to essentially buy someone a collection so they can release free photos of it, especially when there are many collectors in the NYC and New Jersey area that would likely be very happy to provide this guy with a loan of the gear he needs to photograph. I would, however, be happy to support such an effort by funding the actual costs incurred by this guy to shoot his photos (i.e. shipping and local travel, insurance, something for his materials and yes, even something for his time.).

I really wish you wouldn't rush into every single Kickstarter thread guns blazing and attacking anyone who might see things a little differently than yourself. Nobody here is criticizing this guy's work as it's clearly beautiful. Similarly, nobody is saying that what he is doing is not necessary or a waste of time. I just believe that his campaign is fundamentally flawed and so I feel comfortable speaking up about it and I would hope that as a forum moderator you would embrace that healthy discussion instead of constantly trying to surpress it and misrepresent the other side of the discussion.

[bigbacon]

sounds like you just want people to pay for consoles you don't want to purchase yourself. Everyone else has nothing to gain from your photos or lending you money.

[Ed Oscuro]

I think the interesting topic here is "how can the community help out a project like this?" I think we've flogged the other angle to death.

[JSoup]

sounds like you just want people to pay for consoles you don't want to purchase yourself. Everyone else has nothing to gain from your photos or lending you money.

Well, no. The benefit for us is having a documented collection of high quality photos to be used free of charge for just about any project we may have going forward. This is normally the hardest part about archiving something, photos tend to not be left with the relevant information. In so far as that, I'm behind this. Now, as for getting to the goal, theoretically any one of us can take a photo of our equipment and just leave it open to anyone for use (in fact, it seems most of the images found in the various databases around the internet function like that, if only because people take without asking), but are those images high quality HD whatever? I feel that is the main draw here.

Personally, I'm thinking a better way would be to find other collectors with newer, higher quality cameras who would be willing to not only take pretty pictures of their equipment but to also share them for free with the community.

[Ed Oscuro]

Evan clearly knows what he's doing but I wouldn't lend any specialized equipment...I always have that time period where I need to use it.

I am not sure that a tilt-shift would make a massive difference here. I based my assumptions about the T-S from the photos' EXIF info showing a Sony camera of some kind was being used - I could be wrong. Sony isn't my preferred manufacturer (or even second) but their cameras are good enough for this kind of studio work.

What do you mean about photos not being left with the relevant information? For all intents I would say that yes, a photo of a mainboard (for example) should be tied to not only the system and the variant but also to a S/N for future reference (i.e. if somebody wants to compare photos). Presumably this is overkill for the casual game player, and I don't see why it can't be done later. Right now these kinds of things tend to be scattershot - there's this (http://superfamicom.org/console-serial-database), there's old product sheets and pinouts (indispensable, and many available on NFG Forums) and other resources for dedicated users. The photos look pretty but I'm just not seeing the marketing angle here.

[JSoup]

What do you mean about photos not being left with the relevant information? For all intents I would say that yes, a photo of a mainboard (for example) should be tied to not only the system and the variant but also to a S/N for future reference (i.e. if somebody wants to compare photos). Presumably this is overkill for the casual game player, and I don't see why it can't be done later. Right now these kinds of things tend to be scattershot - there's this (http://superfamicom.org/console-serial-database), there's old product sheets and pinouts (indispensable, and many available on NFG Forums) and other resources for dedicated users. The photos look pretty but I'm just not seeing the marketing angle here.

I worded that poorly. Or, rather, backwards. I've done a lot of physical archive work and one of the biggest issues we have is information being available but no decent photos to go with it. It's less of a problem with digital, open sourced archives (like Wikipedia, which isn't really an archive, but functions similar to one) where everything is copied across the internet forever.

[StoneAgeGamer]

I like the idea, but not sure why systems need to be bought. Wouldn't it be simpler to find a couple good collectors and travel to their location and set up a photo shoot? Seems like this would be cheaper and easier than buying systems.

[Guru of Time and Space]

sounds like you just want people to pay for consoles you don't want to purchase yourself. Everyone else has nothing to gain from your photos or lending you money.

Leave it to the mouthbreathers of the Digital Press forums to shit all over this great idea.


I like the idea, but not sure why systems need to be bought. Wouldn't it be simpler to find a couple good collectors and travel to their location and set up a photo shoot? Seems like this would be cheaper and easier than buying systems.

No, it wouldn't be simpler. As explained in the kickstarter, if you would've taken the time to read: "When I take pictures with collectors, I only have a small amount of time to photograph, meaning I have to focus on quick, basic shots. Owning lets me spend time to create the comprehensive galleries I've been yearning to make."
The OP even whipped up this image to explain the difference between a photoshoot using borrowed consoles and a photoshoot using consoles in possession of the photographer themself:
https://s3.amazonaws.com/ksr/assets/001/095/433/5cca1a2c8e229a13dfc3b882196a67c7_large.jpg?1381577 426

It's very commendable in my eyes even if it does boil down to (in the stupidest of caveman terms) people buying this dude the consoles for him to take pictures of. This project is grand and will take a ton of time, hard work, and patience to do, and as proven by the kickstarter link, this guy has the skills to pull it off. I mean, c'mon, a database of high quality photos of consoles set up in the most aesthetically pleasing way possible... this is something I know I'd spend hours and hours exploring and drooling over if only someone had the skills and time to put it together. This guy is trying to do something really fucking cool, something I feel needs to exist, and if you want to help out, you can throw a few bucks his way. If you don't want to help out and can't grasp the importance of a database like this and just think this guy is scheming against you to get your money so he can amass every console ever for no reason other than to just own every console ever without there being some greater importance to amassing every console ever, you can shuuuuut uuuuuup please.

-GoTaS

[JSoup]

No, it wouldn't be simpler. As explained in the kickstarter, if you would've taken the time to read: "When I take pictures with collectors, I only have a small amount of time to photograph, meaning I have to focus on quick, basic shots. Owning lets me spend time to create the comprehensive galleries I've been yearning to make."

If only high quality digital cameras and basic photography skills were easily obtainable by anyone on the planet and not just locked down to just this one guy.

Sarcasm aside, maybe it's difficult for this one person to take more than a few hours to photograph systems, but that's just him. I'm sure people would be willing to bring their equipment for an exhibition at any of the various gaming conventions held around the world. Surly a few high quality, HD photos can be shot at any of these events. In short, there are any number of better, cheaper and generally more fun ways to do this than to just fork over handfuls of cash.

[badinsults]

I like the idea of these photographs, but I question why he didn't ask the community first before creating a kickstarter. Surely there are people with spare consoles that they can give to him for free (or on a long term loan) on the premise of getting photographs. It would probably be cheaper than buying them off Ebay right now.

[Bojay1997]

Leave it to the mouthbreathers of the Digital Press forums to shit all over this great idea.

No, it wouldn't be simpler. As explained in the kickstarter, if you would've taken the time to read: "When I take pictures with collectors, I only have a small amount of time to photograph, meaning I have to focus on quick, basic shots. Owning lets me spend time to create the comprehensive galleries I've been yearning to make."

It's very commendable in my eyes even if it does boil down to (in the stupidest of caveman terms) people buying this dude the consoles for him to take pictures of. This project is grand and will take a ton of time, hard work, and patience to do, and as proven by the kickstarter link, this guy has the skills to pull it off. I mean, c'mon, a database of high quality photos of consoles set up in the most aesthetically pleasing way possible... this is something I know I'd spend hours and hours exploring and drooling over if only someone had the skills and time to put it together. This guy is trying to do something really fucking cool, something I feel needs to exist, and if you want to help out, you can throw a few bucks his way. If you don't want to help out and can't grasp the importance of a database like this and just think this guy is scheming against you to get your money so he can amass every console ever for no reason other than to just own every console ever without there being some greater importance to amassing every console ever, you can shuuuuut uuuuuup please.

-GoTaS

It appears that the only one incapable of rational thought and analysis is you. The fact that you have accused people of being "mouthbreathers", "cavemen" and told anyone who dares question this project to "shut up" is a pretty poor reflection on both you and the OP. If you had bothered to read the entire thread, you would have realized that even those of us who have issues with the campaign recognize his skills and the appeal of doing something like this.

Having said that, this is not the first time someone has done a project that would require long-term loans of equipment from other collectors. In fact, protos regularly get sent to other collectors for dumping and analysis and that process can take weeks and involves trust at a significant level if the owner doesn't want the data released to the public. The fact is that this guy probably hasn't explored those possibilities and frankly, it's not like most of what he is looking for is rare in any way, so I am certain that those of us with duplicate consoles would be happy to do such a long-term loan. Failing that, it would be pretty simple for the OP to update his Kickstarter campaign and either agree to donate the consoles to a recognized museum such as the ones he said he would be loaning things to or to agree to auction them off at the end of his work and donate all proceeds to those museums.

[TheRedEye]

God, what happened to these forums?

[MarioMania]

Again, He's taking Money from people, Just for what his site and pictures

It doesn't take skill to do that,

For a movie yeah, But for this no

[JSoup]

God, what happened to these forums?

It became full of practical adults once all the children left for NA and GFAQs.

[Greg2600]

It became full of practical adults once all the children left for NA and GFAQs.

The grownups live at Atari Age. This is the forum where ideas go to die amongst grumpy old curmudgeons who scream at the neighborhood kids for making too much noise, and having too much fun.

[Rob2600]

If only high quality digital cameras and basic photography skills were easily obtainable by anyone on the planet and not just locked down to just this one guy.


Again, He's taking Money from people, Just for what his site and pictures

It doesn't take skill to do that,

For a movie yeah, But for this no

It takes more than basic skill to professionally light, shoot, and edit photos. Then again, this is the community that expects people to single-handedly create entire video games in their basement for free ("labor of love"), instead of asking for Kickstarter donations.

[MarioMania]

People just love throwing Cash..

The Kickstarter for Mighty #9 now that I will put $$$ down, if I have $$ to blow

This is stupid

[JSoup]

The grownups live at Atari Age. This is the forum where ideas go to die amongst grumpy old curmudgeons who scream at the neighborhood kids for making too much noise, and having too much fun.

"grumpy old curmudgeons" implies adults, which the term "grownups" refers to.


It takes more than basic skill to professionally light, shoot, and edit photos.

Correct, it also takes basic equipment and a few minutes time.

[Rob2600]

Correct, it also takes basic equipment and a few minutes time.

No, it involves professional equipment, professional software, and more than a few minutes to set up the lighting, adjust the white balance, string everything up, process the RAW file, etc.

There's a difference between a high quality professional photo, and someone snapping a grainy point and shoot pic on their dining room table.

[JSoup]

No, it involves professional equipment, professional software, and more than a few minutes to set up the lighting, adjust the white balance, string everything up, process the RAW file, etc.

That's odd, the professional photographer I've known for 20 years doesn't have billion dollar equipment and seems to get work left and right, has won various awards for her work, etc. There is a difference between someone claiming they can't do their job unless they have a billion dollar piece of equipment and someone who knows their art well enough that basic equipment is enough.

I can already tell this is going to be another agree to disagree situation.

Edit: We're also getting straying from the point. We all seem to agree that this high quality photo gallery is a good idea, we just disagree on how to go about it. Just as a way of straw polling people partaking in this little topic, how many people would be willing to bring a console or two to a convention or gathering for the purposes of photography? For my part, I'd be willing with what little I have.

[Bojay1997]

It takes more than basic skill to professionally light, shoot, and edit photos. Then again, this is the community that expects people to single-handedly create entire video games in their basement for free ("labor of love"), instead of asking for Kickstarter donations.

Yes, because prior to 2009 when Kickstarter was founded, there was no such thing as any video game ever made by anyone other than fully funded professional video game studios and everyone knows that ever since Kickstarter came along, nobody has made a video game unless they were part of a fully funded video game studio or a Kickstarter campaign. Gosh, I hope someone has informed the thousands of independent game developers out there that there are now only two options for making games and if they don't go with Kickstarter, they have no choice but to go with an established studio. Do you even bother to think before you type or are you just so keyed into knee jerk assaults on anything that differs from your personal worldview that logic and reasoning and frankly facts have no place in your arguments?

[PapaStu]

See now, this is EXACTLY why crowd sourced campaigns happen. People feel that the product being offered is worth the funding. Do I care about this specific project? No, however I don't feel the need to skewer this because the campaign is being completely honest about the whole thing. If there isn't enough support it won't happen and he'll maybe get enough support in other manners from people (donated consoles etc) to continue on with the work.

The work done by this guy will end up serving the massive community at large and doing it in a manner that will hopefully be continually helpful to everyone seeing the images be it in an article, or a how to guide or video.

Sure lots of people have cameras and other equipment, but do they have the ambition to sit down, take the dozens of shots, edit, clean and upload them all only a server that they're running? I highly doubt that.

[xelement5x]

Just as a way of straw polling people partaking in this little topic, how many people would be willing to bring a console or two to a convention or gathering for the purposes of photography? For my part, I'd be willing with what little I have.

Sure I would too, but would you be willing to let said photographer also fully disassemble your equipment at a convention so that he can take detailed shots of each component and it's location?

I mean, that's the basic reason it seems like he wants to have the consoles on hand, is because he wants to take internal shots of all sorts of internal stuff that would probably not be feasible to do over a single day or two at a convention.

[JSoup]

Sure I would too, but would you be willing to let said photographer also fully disassemble your equipment at a convention so that he can take detailed shots of each component and it's location?

Provided the photographer can put the thing back together correctly, I don't see why not. And even if he can't, I've opened a few systems before, I'm sure I could figure it out.

[Greg2600]

Yes, because prior to 2009 when Kickstarter was founded, there was no such thing as any video game ever made by anyone other than fully funded professional video game studios and everyone knows that ever since Kickstarter came along, nobody has made a video game unless they were part of a fully funded video game studio or a Kickstarter campaign. Gosh, I hope someone has informed the thousands of independent game developers out there that there are now only two options for making games and if they don't go with Kickstarter, they have no choice but to go with an established studio. Do you even bother to think before you type or are you just so keyed into knee jerk assaults on anything that differs from your personal worldview that logic and reasoning and frankly facts have no place in your arguments?

Make a list of games created by independent parties based on well known game licenses, totally on their own dime, which did not look like the crap found on Jakks Pacific Plug and Play games. It will be a short list. To say nothing of the big publishers who will not release sequels to long ago franchises. Another KS is asking $375K for Boogerman! Granted that will never happen, but if they ask for that high a number, I have to believe given that so many of the KS reach well into the 6 digit frame, that's what it costs to make it happen. But I forgot that everybody is an expert on what video games cost to make. My apologies.


That's odd, the professional photographer I've known for 20 years doesn't have billion dollar equipment and seems to get work left and right, has won various awards for her work, etc. There is a difference between someone claiming they can't do their job unless they have a billion dollar piece of equipment and someone who knows their art well enough that basic equipment is enough.

I can already tell this is going to be another agree to disagree situation.

Edit: We're also getting straying from the point. We all seem to agree that this high quality photo gallery is a good idea, we just disagree on how to go about it. Just as a way of straw polling people partaking in this little topic, how many people would be willing to bring a console or two to a convention or gathering for the purposes of photography? For my part, I'd be willing with what little I have.

The photographer is not buying photography equipment, he wants to buy video game hardware. He explained clearly that loaning hardware is too time consuming, and showing up at a collector's door won't work either. Obviously like your friend, this guy also does regular photo work for which he is paid. He's not charging for these images. As people have testified here (who run websites), there is a need.


People just love throwing Cash..

The Kickstarter for Mighty #9 now that I will put $$$ down, if I have $$ to blow

This is stupid

Yes it's fine to fork money over for something YOU personally want, but if anyone else does the same for something they personally want, they're stupid? Brilliant.


See now, this is EXACTLY why crowd sourced campaigns happen. People feel that the product being offered is worth the funding. Do I care about this specific project? No, however I don't feel the need to skewer this because the campaign is being completely honest about the whole thing. If there isn't enough support it won't happen and he'll maybe get enough support in other manners from people (donated consoles etc) to continue on with the work.

The work done by this guy will end up serving the massive community at large and doing it in a manner that will hopefully be continually helpful to everyone seeing the images be it in an article, or a how to guide or video.

Sure lots of people have cameras and other equipment, but do they have the ambition to sit down, take the dozens of shots, edit, clean and upload them all only a server that they're running? I highly doubt that.

WELL SAID!

[Bojay1997]

Make a list of games created by independent parties based on well known game licenses, totally on their own dime, which did not look like the crap found on Jakks Pacific Plug and Play games. It will be a short list. To say nothing of the big publishers who will not release sequels to long ago franchises. Another KS is asking $375K for Boogerman! Granted that will never happen, but if they ask for that high a number, I have to believe given that so many of the KS reach well into the 6 digit frame, that's what it costs to make it happen. But I forgot, you're an expert on what video games cost to make. My apologies.

Yes it's fine to fork money over for something YOU personally want, but if anyone else does the same for something they personally want, they're stupid? Brilliant.



Did you even bother to read what I was responding to? Here is the exact quotation - "Then again, this is the community that expects people to single-handedly create entire video games in their basement for free ("labor of love"), instead of asking for Kickstarter donations". Do you notice there is zero mention of well known game licenses? Frankly, most well known game licenses aren't available to independent developers whether they use Kickstarter or not. The recent Kickstarters that use well known licenses are generally for IP that has been long dead or inactive and for which the rights have generally been recovered by some entity controlled by the original creators. River City Ransom is about the only recent exception to this I can think of where something was actually licensed and part of the Kickstarter went to licensing fees. Many other projects were described as "spiritual successors" and certainly there have been plenty of those over the years released on platforms like Steam, XBLA, PSN, etc...which had no crowdfunding behind them.

There have been many, many great independent games created over the past two decades that weren't done by studios and weren't done through crowdfunding. The fact that people have now adopted this belief that crowdfunding is the only way to get something done are not only wrong, but frankly lack creativity and entrepreneurial sense. Crowdfunding can be a good option for some projects, but it's not the only means of creating and publishing great independent games.

As for your other point, this is exactly what you have been doing in this thread and elsewhere. Anyone who doesn't share your wide eyed enthusiasm for every Kickstarter that is related to video games that comes down the pike is a cranky old man not entitled to their opinion. I'm someone that has now backed over 50 Kickstarters, almost all of them video game related. I certainly believe that crowdfunding has its place. I believe with equal vigor that every project should be closely evaluated and scrutinized and yes, criticized. If projects can't stand or succeed as a result of that scrutiny, then the inherent gatekeeping in crowdfunding has been a success.

[JSoup]

The photographer is not buying photography equipment, he wants to buy video game hardware. He explained clearly that loaning hardware is too time consuming, and showing up at a collector's door won't work either. Obviously like your friend, this guy also does regular photo work for which he is paid. He's not charging for these images. As people have testified here (who run websites), there is a need.

I didn't claim he was trying to buy photography equipment or that there wasn't a need for this. I was replying to your notion that you need a bunch of professional level crap is needed to do this which is flat out wrong. Perhaps loading a few cameras and going for a short drive is too much work for this fellow, but guess what? He's not the only experienced photographer in the world.

[Gameguy]

There have been many, many great independent games created over the past two decades that weren't done by studios and weren't done through crowdfunding. The fact that people have now adopted this belief that crowdfunding is the only way to get something done are not only wrong, but frankly lack creativity and entrepreneurial sense. Crowdfunding can be a good option for some projects, but it's not the only means of creating and publishing great independent games.
It's hard to believe a game like Pier Solar could have come out prior to kickstarter, yet it did. It's a full length, professional quality RPG, released on a proper cartridge with proper packaging. It even included a bonus soundtrack CD to be used in a way with the hardware completely different from any previous game released on that console. All done by people new to releasing games, as a hobby side project. It's like people forget how homebrew or indie games used to be made.

As for these pictures, I'm sure they're neat to see but I don't really see why they're useful. Internal photos of consoles are helpful with repairing them, if the components are labled in the photo. This was done on a site documenting the problem with Turbo Duos and how to fix it. What would really be helpful are schematics or service manuals for consoles, more than just random pictures showing everything under the case. If you're talking about what to spend money on to help produce.

[portnoyd]

Hi, I'm a photographer that has been taking high-quality, public domain images of video game hardware for the past three years. I host my work on Wikimedia and my images are used in Wikipedia articles, where they then spread throughout the internet.

I have a Kickstarter because I want to expand and refine the gallery that I currently have. You can find more information out here:

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1699256938/the-vanamo-online-game-museum

I'm just asking you guys to check it out and judge for yourself. There's a real need for high quality, professionally-taken photos of these consoles, especially older ones. I give all of my work away for free because it's the best way to help the community. I hope you guys consider it.

As I stated on your Kickstarter comments, as it mirrors bojay's comments, there is no reason for you to get donations to buy systems. If you look into the history of DP, before it fell into oblivion, that everything generated here was volunteer and unpaid. No one here received a dime for their time and efforts. Now you want money for something akin to what we did for free? Really?

Speaking of which, there are members in this thread that remember vidgame.net, the site my wife did for free without a $8,500 grant, that did exactly what you want to do. You also claim 'Oh the pics will be free for anyone to use!', which made my wife laugh out loud. It doesn't matter - people will use the pics with and without your consent. Saying they are free to use is silly. Hell, look at TRE, do you think he asked you to use the O1 picture? Oh, that's right, they're 'free to use'.

Nothing changes that you can buy a system, take the pics, sell it. Anyway, your goal is too low. As I mentioned on the Kickstarter comments, you're going to need $20,000 for a RDI Halycon. If you intend to, on just that system, find a collector to borrow it/let you use it, you might as well as do it for everything. You know I'm less than an hour away from you with pretty much every system you want to take a picture of, right? You know, the whole wife doing what you're doing thing. If you reply to this, try and do it without saying 'But'.

Hell, have you ever thought about calling ICHEG and working something out with them? I have no doubt in my mind that they'd embrace what you're doing and for free. A kickstarter for a third of the money would cover travel, hotel and your time. Hell, you don't even need to fly if you don't really want to, being in NYC. Also, ICHEG has a staff, a staff that can help you set up for pictures, take apart systems, etc. I would even be curious to see if ICHEG already has something like this in mind.


Didn't you get the memo that no one is permitted to support a KS on this forum?

It blows my mind that people don't look more critically at Kickstarter projects now. The honeymoon period ended when Tim Schaefer said "We need more money" for a game that got 10x its goal. If an established game studio can't get their shit together for a donation project, what makes you think most KS's will either? It's not Kickstarters mentioned here, it's Kickstarter in general. I personally haven't been ripped off but not a single KS I have backed met the timeline goals they set. The real killer for me was the Pebble watch. While a good product, it was 9 months late and without third party software, is next to useless. All that time and 10 MILLION DOLLARS and the watch needs volunteer support? Really?!

As far as ones mentioned here, well, Santulli & Co have 6 years to come up with something and the past 2 have been spent with seemingly now yearly Gearbox fundraisers, E3, PAX and GDC and then nothing for months. Meanwhile, ICHEG continues to grow and flourish with heaps of funding. I don't think the backers outside of DP are forgetting that their rewards are tied to the museum actually existing and it's far from that.

Retro Magazine is a Kickstarter with a lot of names but only one matters - SoCalMike. The guy who has been running CTCW/GameGavel for an eon, an auction site that has as many sellers as Retro has people tapped to contribute. You really want me to put my own cash towards a magazine run by a guy whose site should have been shut down years ago? Really? The sad part is I am largely aware of how bad GameGavel is doing, thanks to SoCalMike's impossible-to-unsubscribe-to spam.

Concerning this KS and the videogame info database one from a few months back, it's all stuff done before and most importantly, can be done for small investments of money and large investments of time, without grubbing for money from others.


The grownups live at Atari Age. This is the forum where ideas go to die amongst grumpy old curmudgeons who scream at the neighborhood kids for making too much noise, and having too much fun.

You're doing a stellar job moderating there, sport. You are having a Frankie-esque meltdown in slow motion. It's pretty amazing, actually.


God, what happened to these forums?

What happened to these forums? Did you miss the chronic downtime 4-5 years ago that drove away any growth the site had? Did you miss digitalpress abandoning these forums? Or the moderating staff of Greg2600 and that's it? How about DP dropping anyone who was of no use to him as the DP empire migrated from site to store to Facebook to "museum"?

Nevermind that your comment is related to someone actually, gasp, having an opinion contrast to your own. Honestly, what the hell happened to you? That gaming journalism career definitely shook the TRE out of you. I was appalled you actually agreed to being on the board of directors for the VG History Museum.


As for your other point, this is exactly what you have been doing in this thread and elsewhere. Anyone who doesn't share your wide eyed enthusiasm for every Kickstarter that is related to video games that comes down the pike is a cranky old man not entitled to their opinion. I'm someone that has now backed over 50 Kickstarters, almost all of them video game related. I certainly believe that crowdfunding has its place. I believe with equal vigor that every project should be closely evaluated and scrutinized and yes, criticized. If projects can't stand or succeed as a result of that scrutiny, then the inherent gatekeeping in crowdfunding has been a success.

I just want to say it's a load of shit that you all are giving bojay crap and lumping him in with us 'grumpy old men' from vbender. PROTIP: Not once has he set foot on our channel. Don't berate him for having his own independent opinion, even if it mirrors ours. Maybe it could be, gasp, that he's not being negative to be negative and actually feels this way.

[PapaStu]

I'm posting one last time here (post mystery lock) to say that I do not know which on the mod staff locked this thread, or why they felt that it should be locked.

While the forums aren't nearly as active as they used to be and the mod staff is thinner by leaps and bounds, it doesn't mean that we the mods will just lock a thread because it irks us without reason. It's something that we didn't do before in any point that I've been a mod or admin on DP (going on 7 years in that role) and it's not something that I'll allow now.

I'm leaving this temporarily locked until I can find out why and will then either get this back open and hopefully on track, or give out a reason as to why it got the digital clank.

[PapaStu]

And a report on the locking.

This thread was locked at the request of the OP who felt that any discussion regarding the objective of the Kickstarter had been lost to raging keyboards and he had no intention of responding any longer.

Those who choose to help, if this hits goals, his work will eventually be something that gets referenced like the DP/AA/NA rarity guides and countless work many forum users have done over the years for the greater-ish good of the community at large.

Those that don't choose to help will still be able to use these images should the KS get funded.

And we're done here. Thanks for playing!

**lockerooni**