PS2 and the new Gen

[Niku-Sama]

so I have to ask...forum related.

the new generation is coming out and I cant help notice that Modern gaming says:


From PlayStation 2 to present! Discuss the latest classics, the hottest new gaming technology, the latest direction of your favorite developer, or your thoughts on the latest adventure titles! As we always say: it doesn't have to be OLD to be CLASSIC.

with PS3 currently out and PS4 coming out Nov 15th is there going to be a shift...
say PS2 not being modern any more to being classic and the new modern forum sub text with one minor change to say


From PlayStation 3 to present! Discuss the latest classics, the hottest new gaming technology, the latest direction of your favorite developer, or your thoughts on the latest adventure titles! As we always say: it doesn't have to be OLD to be CLASSIC.
around Nov 15th?
what do the users here think...

is it time for PS2 to be classic?

no poll just want to hear yays or nays and possibly why.

[Guyra]

Yeah, I think it's time to put PS2 in the "classic" category now that the new generation is coming. The final game for the system is also coming out soon(PES 2014), though it doesn't have an exact release date yet as far as I know. But I read that the PS2 version of it would come out a bit later than the versions for other systems.

[Orion Pimpdaddy]

Yep, PS2 cannot be considered modern gaming anymore. Either send it to the classic section, or create a new category that's "in between."

[Alpha2099]

I guess it all depends on how you want to define "modern." I would set the line at around 10 years, in terms of a console's inception. PS2 hit the shelves in 2000, whereas PS3 debuted in 2006. So I would agree that perhaps it's time to hang the PS2 jersey up in the rafters and move it to the classic section.

[Ed Oscuro]

Honestly, who still considers the PS2, Dreamcast, Xbox, and GameCube "current" consoles? Even the Wii and DS aren't selling new anymore. The conception of "current gen" hasn't changed in the whole time I've had my account here.

[Rickstilwell1]

Yeah to kids these days if anything has a wired controller as the only pack-in option with a system it is generally considered classic by them. The Gamecube has already become a grandfather and kind of already is classic as is the Game Boy Advance.

[FFStudios]

Yeah, retire the PS2. Long live the king.

[Tupin]

I would be in favor of this, in addition to moving GCN and Xbox to the Classic board.

[Niku-Sama]

see if this post works, formatting is all sorts of messed up for the boards tonite.


any way so far it seems pretty unanimous, if a mod wanders in maybe it'll help the cause, I suggest changing it ON the 15th of November though. just for technicalitys sake

[Rickstilwell1]

see if this post works, formatting is all sorts of messed up for the boards tonite.


any way so far it seems pretty unanimous, if a mod wanders in maybe it'll help the cause, I suggest changing it ON the 15th of November though. just for technicalitys sake

I still thought it should have been changed on the Wii U's launch date. But I guess PS4 is close enough to having almost all the previous systems replaced instead of just one and the handhelds.

[Niku-Sama]

i'm thinking its the middle point, hand helds hold a different time frame to home systems.

their cycles is way different and theres only like 2 on top of that.

needs more variety honestly....

[Nz17]

As for the organization of these message boards, Classic is for consoles released before the year 2000 while Modern is for consoles released in 2000 or later. Think of it as the distinction between B.C. and A.D. (or for you more contemporary types, the difference between B.C.E. and C.E.).

This split on the year 2000 is to keep maintenance easy and hassle-free. After all, if we kept Modern Gaming as a moving target, every few years we'd have to redo things either by moving thousands of threads or creating a new sub-forum for the latest stuff. As you might imagine, it would start looking like five different forums with the 1970's, 1980's, 1990's, 2000's, and 2010's each having their own forum... and eventually we'd need to add a sixth.

But to keep it simple, we split the difference on 2000 A.D. Think of it as, "Classic Gaming covers the first thirty years of consoles and Modern Gaming covers everything after that."

[SuperEliteGamer]

Lulz........the PS2 IS classic,mate.
It's a legacy platform.
It's retro by now.

[DiEsmitty]

If you can walk into game stop and buy a game for it, its not a classic. The only remotely retro feature about a PS2 would be the external memory i.e. memory card.

[Satoshi_Matrix]

Technology advances quickly. Anyone who doesn't consider the PS2 retro by this point is simply an adult gamer who doesn't want to admit to getting older themselves.

It's time for Dreamcast, PS2, Xbox and GameCube, and GameBoy Advance to be moved to the Classic Gaming Section.

Perhaps we should have a vote?

[Leo_A]

I just bought a new PS2 last year at a local Wal-Mart and I still see new PS2 software and accessories at retailers that carry videogames. So I think that there's a fair argument for it not being classic gaming just yet.

It's still for a few more weeks Sony's last gen console hardware and not everyone subscribes to the thought that two generations out of date means it's automatically classified as such.

[Tupin]

Just a question: would anyone in 2004/early 2005 have argued that the SNES wasn't a "retro" system? It was the same age as the PS2 is now.

[Leo_A]

I think there was room to argue it since you could even still find the stray Majesco reprint here and there back then at major retailers and the Super Famicom had just recently been discontinued and the SuperNes hadn't been dead very long at that point (70,000 systems were sold in the US alone as recently as 2001).

But I'm not sure that's entirely a fair comparison thanks to the 3D transition that happened with the generation after the SuperNes and 2004/2005 was nearly two full generations after the Super Nintendo had been Nintendo's premier home console. The Nintendo 64 had came and gone and the GameCube had nearly ran out of steam.

[Satoshi_Matrix]

I just bought a new PS2 last year at a local Wal-Mart and I still see new PS2 software and accessories at retailers that carry videogames. So I think that there's a fair argument for it not being classic gaming just yet.

It's still for a few more weeks Sony's last gen console hardware and not everyone subscribes to the thought that two generations out of date means it's automatically classified as such.

I don't buy the "if a retailer still sells it, it isn't retro" argument. There's a game store in Toronto that I recently visited that sells new old-stock N64s and PS1's, even brand new shrink wrapped NES games.

Does that mean the N64, PS1 and NES aren't classic gaming systems just because they can still be found brand new?

I don't mean to sound insulting, but that very notion that the PS2 is not retro because it is sold in some stores is baffling to me.

[Leo_A]

I don't buy it either since nothing would be classic gaming then. But where mainstream retailers are concerned, it most certainly is a factor and hardly something to be confused about. You must realize that's what I meant and that I surely wasn't inferring that a system couldn't be viewed as a classic just because there were still brand new items available for it at something like an independent gaming store or up on eBay. Not sure why you decided to be difficult about that by twisting that around.

I can go to my local Wal-Right right now and buy brand new Dual Shock 2's, brand new 1st party memory cards, and a small variety of PS2 software that's still sticking around (Not to mention brand new games are still being released although they seem to largely be online exclusives around the world). Some of you folks were ready years ago even when new PS2's were everywhere and games were regularly coming out.

If that's not modern gaming, just what is? To me, classic gaming is when all but a select few have left the console behind and mainstream retailers and the manufacturers have ceased any sort of support since there simply isn't a customer base left to justify it any longer. That makes far more sense than an arbitrary standard that if it's two generations out of date then it's classic gaming. It's far too subjective a subject for that sort of a standard I think and not every system from the same generation experiences the same lifespan. And when there's signs it's not even completely dead commercially, I certainly think that here's a bit of room for debate.

That said, I'd be comfortable shifting related discussion at this point to the classic gaming forum. I just don't think that it's un-debatable that it's not still modern gaming.

[Rickstilwell1]

I don't buy it either since nothing would be classic gaming then. But where mainstream retailers are concerned, it most certainly is a factor and hardly something to be confused about. You must realize that's what I meant and that I surely wasn't inferring that a system couldn't be classic gaming just because there were still brand new items available for it at something like a independent gaming store or up on eBay.

I can go to my local Wal-Right right now and buy brand new Dual Shock 2's, brand new 1st party memory cards, and a small variety of PS2 software that's still sticking around (Not to mention brand new games are still being released although they seem to largely be online exclusives around the world). Some of you folks were ready years ago even when new PS2's were everywhere and games were regularly coming out.

If that's not modern gaming, just what is? To me, classic gaming is when all but a select few have left the console behind and mainstream retailers and the manufacturers have ceased any sort of support since there simply isn't a customer base left to justify it any longer. That makes far more sense than an arbitrary standard that if it's two generations out of date then it's classic gaming. It's far too subjective for that sort of a standard I think and not every system from the same generation experiences the same lifespan. And when there's signs it's not even completely dead commercially, I certainly think that here's a bit of room for debate.

That said, I'd be comfortable shifting related discussion at this point to the classic gaming forum. I just don't think that it's un-debatable that it's not still modern gaming.

You still can't do that with Xbox, Game Boy Advance and Gamecube though. Playstation 2 is the only odd one out and it's the oldest of those four.

[DiEsmitty]

We're not talking about specialty shops that are selling nos famicoms. We're talking about mainstream stores ie walmart, gamestop, Yamada denki selling new from factory not some dank forgotten warehouse in Thailand. So a console that plays DVDs, should be moved to the same category as an Atari. Dual shock 2 controllers lumped in with your standard nes dog bone controllers. The PS2 features are not classic, I think it's life span would suggest thAt it is still relevant in today's market.

[Leo_A]

You still can't do that with Xbox, Game Boy Advance and Gamecube though. Playstation 2 is the only odd one out and it's the oldest of those four.

It's precisely why I'm arguing that a blanket standard like being two generations old is so lousy. It doesn't take into account short lived platforms or platforms with extraordinary lifespans that lasted across multiple generations like the Atari 2600 and the Playstation 2.

Not to mention the intangibles like the Dreamcast that got off to such a promising start yet died so prematurely while marking the end of console production from a beloved company and the last console that placed a major focus on bringing arcade gaming into the home. Or all the automatic 2D nostalgia that the Super Nintendo had that quite possibly led gamers to start classifying it as classic earlier than they perhaps would've had the generation transition been a bit more conventional and 2D style console gaming hadn't nearly gone extinct for a time.

[Rickstilwell1]

It's precisely why I'm arguing that a blanket standard like being two generations old is so lousy. It doesn't take into account short lived platforms or platforms with extraordinary life's that lasted across multiple generations like the Atari 2600 and the Playstation 2.

Not to mention the intangibles like the Dreamcast that got off to such a promising start yet died so prematurely while marking the end of console production from a beloved company and the last console that placed a major focus on bringing arcade gaming into the home. Or all the automatic 2D nostalgia that the Super Nintendo had that quite possibly led gamers to start classifying it as classic earlier than they perhaps would've had the generation transition been a bit more conventional and 2D style gaming hadn't nearly gone extinct.

I'm all for "off with the cords" where anything that isn't wireless by default feels like outdated technology. From last gen (Wii/PS3/360) on out I bet nothing will come wired by default.

[j_factor]

I don't buy it either since nothing would be classic gaming then. But where mainstream retailers are concerned, it most certainly is a factor and hardly something to be confused about. You must realize that's what I meant and that I surely wasn't inferring that a system couldn't be classic gaming just because there were still brand new items available for it at something like a independent gaming store or up on eBay.

I can go to my local Wal-Right right now and buy brand new Dual Shock 2's, brand new 1st party memory cards, and a small variety of PS2 software that's still sticking around (Not to mention brand new games are still being released although they seem to largely be online exclusives around the world). Some of you folks were ready years ago even when new PS2's were everywhere and games were regularly coming out.

If that's not modern gaming, just what is? To me, classic gaming is when all but a select few have left the console behind and mainstream retailers and the manufacturers have ceased any sort of support since there simply isn't a customer base left to justify it any longer. That makes far more sense than an arbitrary standard that if it's two generations out of date then it's classic gaming. It's far too subjective a subject for that sort of a standard I think and not every system from the same generation experiences the same lifespan. And when there's signs it's not even completely dead commercially, I certainly think that here's a bit of room for debate.

That said, I'd be comfortable shifting related discussion at this point to the classic gaming forum. I just don't think that it's un-debatable that it's not still modern gaming.

When the Modern Gaming forum here was first created, you could still buy PS1 stuff at mainstream stores. So I don't think that standard holds.

[Guyra]

To those saying that it's not a retro system because you can still find games for it at retailers, I must ask: What does large print runs have to do with it being classic or not?

I would've understood anyone saying that it's not a classic system because there are still games being officially released for it, though. FIFA 14 was just released for the PS2. It's actually called "FIFA 14 Legacy Edition" - no joke. And as I mentioned in my first reply to this thread, PES 2014 will come out soon and be the last game for the system.

Personally, I think it should be considered a classic system when both the final game for it, and the PS4 and XO, are released. :)



The only remotely retro feature about a PS2 would be the external memory i.e. memory card.

And wired controllers as the standard.
And no HDMI connection.
And no system online store for buying digital release games.

[Niku-Sama]

^to add to this^

do you expect every copy of that crappy sports game to sell out completely in a few years ant not have any left overs in a retail store because people just don't want it?
where I work there are 2 PS2 games, GTA 3 collection and Mortal Kombat Kollection.
these cases aren't bad games, every one and their dog own them by now so they do not sell, and home office keeps sending us this crap!
an extreme case, NBA 2k4. it was at the new old store I worked, freight got transferred in from a store we closed and it went with it, still has a tag for about $40.

walmart is notorious for keeping crap and trying to make something back on it. I remember for the LONGEST time there were 3do accessories at one, they were there till probably 2005 I think. when I started working there and we closed that store down I was hoping to find some in the back room but to no avail...did find a set of SNES cables, they told us to sell them for what ever we could get for them as-is. cheapest set of SNES cables I have ever bought...

[Ed Oscuro]

After all, if we kept Modern Gaming as a moving target, every few years we'd have to redo things either by moving thousands of threads or creating a new sub-forum for the latest stuff. As you might imagine, it would start looking like five different forums with the 1970's, 1980's, 1990's, 2000's, and 2010's each having their own forum... and eventually we'd need to add a sixth.
Good as far as it goes, but that just pushes the day of reckoning down the road...yeah, I'm not suggesting finding and moving every last topic based on content. The current "Modern Gaming" thread could get split off into a "fourth to sixth generation" forum (listing consoles).

Seeing the wisdom in the big sites just proliferating new subforums to handle each individual console.

We'll see, though; it shouldn't get too stuffy in here.

It is easy to miss the "after Y2K" edit on the forum description though, and "today, classic means everything before the PlayStation 2" still doesn't really make sense to folks...maybe that could be rewritten.

[DiEsmitty]

To those saying that it's not a retro system because you can still find games for it at retailers, I must ask: What does large print runs have to do with it being classic or not?

I would've understood anyone saying that it's not a classic system because there are still games being officially released for it, though. FIFA 14 was just released for the PS2. It's actually called "FIFA 14 Legacy Edition" - no joke. And as I mentioned in my first reply to this thread, PES 2014 will come out soon and be the last game for the system.

Personally, I think it should be considered a classic system when both the final game for it, and the PS4 and XO, are released. :)




And wired controllers as the standard.
And no HDMI connection.
And no system online store for buying digital release games.

Wow wired controllers and HDMI are the defining traits for classics. Sounds like young bucks with a small attention span. The wii lacked HDMI. Most play and charge kits for all current systems have you tethered while you charge. The Wii, the PS3, I barely remember the original Xbox I was away a lot in the military where the first consoles to have online stores. However there is nothing classic about a system that has a large online presence.
As for games here in Japan there are tons of new games for the ps2 not sports games, jrpgs, anime, eroge you name it. The peripherals that were made for this system, should demonstrate that it is not a "classic" system. I have a japanese PSX and nothing about that feels classic.

[Andreas]

In my opinion, the PlayStation2 and the Nintendo GameCube are qualified as some kind of "classic" consoles or "retro" consoles, because they established and died as "non-download-content" consoles. Their library of games is fully useable "as they known to be" without access to the internet and patch libraries.

I think the establishment of signed downloads, like patches, download content and download only games, wich required a subscription to an online service is the most important difference between two generations of gaming systems.

May be it's time for some new categories in generations. Like "before" and "after" online based services.

[Guyra]

Wow wired controllers and HDMI are the defining traits for classics.

I'm not sure if you noticed the quotation I did there. If the use of memory cards is a defining trait for classic systems, as the person I quoted says, then I believe the the things I listed are as well.

In addition, how about thinking of how it has all these traits at once, instead of thinking of how one system might have maybe one of these traits?


The wii lacked HDMI. Most play and charge kits for all current systems have you tethered while you charge.

I would be highly surprised if you've never heard or seen people discussing how the Wii should be considered a part of the previous generation of hardware.

And is your argument that because you have to connect modern, wireless gaming controllers to cables so they can charge, they are equal to actual wired gaming controllers? If so, then I must say that's just reaching for straws. I'm sure that if we had the technology for automatically charging wireless peripherals without connecting it to anything, in a practical and cost and time efficient manner, we would've used it. But as it stands, of course you need to connect the batteries to the charger. That doesn't make wireless peripherals(with charging cables) less wireless; This is just how the technology works.


The Wii, the PS3, I barely remember the original Xbox I was away a lot in the military where the first consoles to have online stores. However there is nothing classic about a system that has a large online presence.

Yes, the original Xbox had an online store. But you really can't say it "has a large online presence," as you put it. The Xbox Live for the original Xbox - meaning everything online about it - closed down on April 15th 2010. That's three and a half years ago. So that system does not have any online presence at all.


As for games here in Japan there are tons of new games for the ps2 not sports games, jrpgs, anime, eroge you name it. The peripherals that were made for this system, should demonstrate that it is not a "classic" system. I have a japanese PSX and nothing about that feels classic.

I'm with you on the part about new games for it. I think that was made clear in my previous post. However, how does the peripherals that were made for the PS2 demonstrate that it's not a classic system? I mean, have you even looked at the stuff they had for the Famicom and NES?

Karaoke microphones
One handed controllers
Barcode Battler II - similar to the Skylanders figurines
3D/virtual reality goggles
Internet modem
Motion controller
Wireless controller system
Controllerless system (waving your hands in the air like Kinect)

And that's just some of it.

[Leo_A]

Frankly, all these posts further the point. Two generations old equating to automatic classic status clearly isn't how many people think. There are a lot of factors that lead to a classic gamer classifying a system in their mind as classic rather than a modern game system.

So there's certainly a bit of room for argument rather than being clear cut like some suggested.


do you expect every copy of that crappy sports game to sell out completely in a few years ant not have any left overs in a retail store because people just don't want it?

When I see new PS2 games in stock, it's not lingering copies of five year old releases of Madden and such. It's popular games that have been reprinted in recent years that are still actively being stocked by the retailer.


PES 2014 will come out soon and be the last game for the system.

The last 50 games have been proclaimed as "the last game for the system".

In lieu of an official announcement of that fact which I doubt occurred, I'll believe it when a year rolls by with nothing and there isn't a PES 2015.


I'm all for "off with the cords" where anything that isn't wireless by default feels like outdated technology. From last gen (Wii/PS3/360) on out I bet nothing will come wired by default.

Xbox 360 gamepads came wired in the non hard drive model in early years. And nunchucks and Classic Controllers always have been "tethered" to a wireless Wiimote. And a lot of 3rd party controllers have and likely will continue to be wired like arcade sticks.


When the Modern Gaming forum here was first created, you could still buy PS1 stuff at mainstream stores. So I don't think that standard holds.

I wasn't proposing a standard. Frankly, I personally think the Playstation 2 is in an in-between area. Too young to truly be considered as a classic gaming system yet too old to be a modern gaming system. So if I really cared, I'm fine either way things go. It's the suggestion from a couple that this is clear cut that I argued with.

And I don't remember when that classification happened around here, but Digital Press dates back to the glory years of the Playstation. And for years after the Playstation 2, you'd of easily found arguments if someone proclaimed it as classic. I didn't even get mine until the redesign hit $50 new and they were a popular item that year after that price drop back in 2003 or so (Often being sold with an attachable LCD screen).

And new games were still happening well after that. Games that the average person could actually find easily at brick & mortar retailers, unlike these last few PS2 soccer games.

[Satoshi_Matrix]

You still can't do that with Xbox, Game Boy Advance and Gamecube though. Playstation 2 is the only odd one out and it's the oldest of those four.

It's precisely why I'm arguing that a blanket standard like being two generations old is so lousy. It doesn't take into account short lived platforms or platforms with extraordinary life's that lasted across multiple generations like the Atari 2600 and the Playstation 2.

Yeah...except that I don't buy that argument either. Just because a platform that has an extraordinary long life spanning multiple generations is still being sold on store shelves doesn't mean it is not retro.

You brought up the Atari 2600. The 2600 was still being sold in the early 90's alongside the SNES, Genesis and TG-16. By your logic, are you saying the 2600 was still a modern platform at that time?

And then moving on to the PS2 - yes, it's still being sold in stores, but the PS2 has been in a retirement home on life support for years, at least since 2009. That has come out since 2009 that was not a sports game and was actually worth buying?

Just because some stores still sell PS2 stuff (you brought up Walmart...there's no PS2 stuff in any walmart I've been in for several years now. It must be an American thing in major cities only?) does not mean the PS2 is a modern console.





Not to mention the intangibles like the Dreamcast that got off to such a promising start yet died so prematurely while marking the end of console production from a beloved company and the last console that placed a major focus on bringing arcade gaming into the home. Or all the automatic 2D nostalgia that the Super Nintendo had that quite possibly led gamers to start classifying it as classic earlier than they perhaps would've had the generation transition been a bit more conventional and 2D style gaming hadn't nearly gone extinct.

The Dreamcast is part of the PS2/GC/Xbox era. What does it's premature death have to do with anything? Also, the SNES became retro around ~1999, 2000.

[Andreas]

Just to recognize! The last SNES game official released in north america was "Frogger" in 1998. The SFC game official released in japan was "Metal Slader Glory" in end of 2000... a half year after the PlayStation2 has been released in japan.

The Genesis and SNES, both of them have still releases that are not official and not homebrew.

In my opinion the SNES was already a classic a long time bevor the release of the Playstation2. It's a 10 year span from the SNES to PlayStation2. And it's a nearly 14 year span between PlayStation2 and the PlayStation4.

What I want to say... The last game release, or the time between systems means nothing. NOTHING!!!!


What defines something as classic and modern is the type of system and style of play.

8Bit "homecomputer" style -> 16Bit cartridge based consoles (nes/snes/genesis/pce) -> 3D optical media (cd/gd/dvd) based consoles (ps1-2/ngc/dc)-> network service and download based consoles (ps3-4/xbox1-3) -> subscription/service based consoles (ps5? ps-gaikai)

[Leo_A]

Yeah...except that I don't buy that argument either. Just because a platform that has an extraordinary long life spanning multiple generations is still being sold on store shelves doesn't mean it is not retro.

You brought up the Atari 2600. The 2600 was still being sold in the early 90's alongside the SNES, Genesis and TG-16. By your logic, are you saying the 2600 was still a modern platform at that time?

And then moving on to the PS2 - yes, it's still being sold in stores, but the PS2 has been in a retirement home on life support for years, at least since 2009. That has come out since 2009 that was not a sports game and was actually worth buying?

Just because some stores still sell PS2 stuff (you brought up Walmart...there's no PS2 stuff in any walmart I've been in for several years now. It must be an American thing in major cities only?) does not mean the PS2 is a modern console.

I clearly stated that I don't consider the Playstation 2 a classic or a modern system. I'm not arguing for either one. I'm arguing that it could easily go either way and that the fact that it still has some commercial life is just one argument that someone could use against those proclaiming that it's an undeniable fact that it's a classic gaming system.

This if it's two generations old it's automatically classic rule you seem to be using is rubbish. It's not anywhere near that simple as this thread attests to.


Also, the SNES became retro around ~1999, 2000.

Nonsense

Nintendo just launched an entire hardware design barely a year before that time and was selling millions of them and many millions of cartridges. Their sales by year are out there on their Japanese website with these stats. A system with a nearly new revision selling a lot of hardware and games sure isn't classic in my book and most certainly is modern gaming.

And since there is no right or wrong here, I'm as right in saying it didn't.


The Dreamcast is part of the PS2/GC/Xbox era. What does it's premature death have to do with anything?

There's nothing confusing about my statement. I clearly indicated that I don't think there's one hard and fast rule that you go off in making this determination. And myself and many other's in this thread have talked about many factors that play into it for themselves. One for instance talked about the cut off from wired controllers and wireless as a transition in his mind where the classic era currently ends and the modern era starts for him.

So what I said makes perfect sense. There are a lot of intangibles at play here in people's minds. And you will find many that proclaimed the Dreamcast a classic console well before any of its competition. And these are some of the reasons why that happened early for the Dreamcast for many compared to its contemporaries. Not sure why you've chosen to debate this particular bit or feign confusion about it.


INot to mention the intangibles like the Dreamcast that got off to such a promising start yet died so prematurely while marking the end of console production from a beloved company and the last console that placed a major focus on bringing arcade gaming into the home.

[Satoshi_Matrix]

In my opinion the SNES was already a classic a long time before the release of the Playstation2. It's a 10 year span from the SNES to PlayStation2. And it's a nearly 14 year span between PlayStation2 and the PlayStation4.

What I want to say... The last game release, or the time between systems means nothing. NOTHING!!!!

This.



I clearly stated that I don't consider the Playstation 2 a classic or a modern system. I'm not arguing for either one. I'm arguing that it could easily go either way and that the fact that it still has some commercial life is just one argument that someone could use against those proclaiming that it's an undeniable fact that it's a classic gaming system.

Sorry, it just seemed like you were implying the PS2 is not a classic console at this point. I suppose there is some validity in the statement that the PS2 has the slimmest of commercial viability in today's console market.



This if it's two generations old it's automatically classic rule you seem to be using is rubbish. It's not anywhere near that simple as this thread attests to.

With respect, explain to me how this is "rubbish" and not a universal truth? What console or handheld is two generations old and not classic in your view (other than the PS2 which you've continued to argue for possibly still being considered modern as a strange anomaly of gaming)

[Leo_A]

I hardly think I'm nitpicking about the Playstation 2 having some commercial life when it's still even seeing commercial game development and official releases from major publishers. And the Playstation 2 is only one generation old and is on the cusp of entering its 2nd post replacement console generation still kicking ever so slightly.

And I argued that entering its second post replacement generation doesn't automatically equate to classic. I didn't necessarily state that there are any present exceptions to that. I don't think there's any hard and fast rule here and like I already said, this thread and the many opinions and qualifications of the classic gaming community that have partly been expressed here is proof that it's not so simple. After all, this is only an ambiguous standard which the community decides on and typically argues about.

But I'd certainly argue for the Atari 2600 which lasted through two full console generations after its own (5200/Vectrex/Colecovision and then NES/SMS/7800/XEGS) and didn't see its commercial demise until into the third as possibly qualifying. And several certainly have gotten close if not made it commercially into its 3rd post replacement generation.

But the better examples are the ones that made it early for many. The Dreamcast for those reasons you dismissed was widely viewed as classic gaming years before its contemporaries, the Super Nintendo and Sega Genesis that were the last mainstream consoles that were predominantly 2D, the Neo Geo which I think was classified as such in the minds of the vast majority years before SNK ceased commercial support, etc.

For me personally, many qualifications I think are at play in my mind. Some of the major ones are has the system commercially died and how much time has passed since it ceased to have any commercial viability, is it commonly played by the average person or is it just kept alive by a few thousand classic gamers, what's the situation with both new and these days used stock at major retail chains, and what evolution has occurred with the switch of console generations.

There isn't just 1 factor at play and something like the demise of 2D gaming, for me at least, is going to make me quicker to consider a console and its respective generation as classic gaming material than something far less dramatic and different like this shift we're undergoing presently.

[Andreas]

Nonsense

Nintendo just launched an entire hardware design barely a year before that time and was selling millions of them and many millions of cartridges. Their sales by year are out there on their Japanese website with these stats. A system with a nearly new revision selling a lot of hardware and games sure isn't classic in my book and most certainly is modern gaming.

And since there is no right or wrong here, I'm as right in saying it didn't.

The SNS-101 was released in october 1997 [NA] / march 1998 [JAP]. May be you have some kind of magic crystal ball... but at my very intense research i haven't found any proofed sales volume and you can still buy a genesis/megadrive (official licensed by sega, produced by at games) at toys'r'us.

[Leo_A]

I'm not talking things like Atari Flashbacks. I'm talking about 1st party hardware from the manufacturer itself for a platform that has never left production. Not classic gaming plug and play revivals, typically from 3rd party companies like AtGames that do little more than license some IP years after the commercial demise of console platform, and usually don't even accept original media.

And like I said, Nintendo launched an entire redesign a little bit over a year before his 1999 time frame that the platform suddenly became retro. As for the sales stats, I most certainly didn't pull them out of a hat. So you will have to do better than that. Your intense research if it ever actually happens will quickly reveal this data that Nintendo has available and which has gotten a fair bit of press in recent years.

Or like I already said, it's right on their Japanese website. You could just go and actually take a look for yourself. When you do, you will see that Nintendo sold 2.04 million Super Nintendo systems and 14.5 million games in the 1998 fiscal year, 1.43 million systems and 6 million games in 1999, 280,000 systems and 1.5 million games in 2000, and 90,000 systems and 150,000 games in 2001.

That was the last fiscal year which included North America (which constituted the bulk of sales in the recent years leading up to this). It may have contributed past that date but sales weren't enough to round up to 10,000 (Which is what these figures are in). Then in Japan it lasted at least into the 2004 fiscal year where they sold enough systems to still count as 1 (10,000 units). Not enough games were sold to count that year.

So if someone considers the end of a console's commercial life as one determinant in the overall classification of a platform, which I'm sure I'm not alone in considering, that one was still kicking pretty well back around 1999.

[Andreas]

With the sales value i referred to the SNS-101.

[Leo_A]

With the sales value i referred to the SNS-101.

I never talked specifically about that. I simply said that it's hard to believe that a system reached classic status not very long after an entire revision of it was released. Any mention of sales data was talking about the platform as a whole and it's difficult to see the relevance of the composition of those sales. That they were brand new SuperNes consoles is all that matters.

[Gameguy]

To me classic games should be including everything up until the PS1, anything after that like the N64 should be considered modern. At most, the N64 can be considered classic. The term "modern" doesn't mean the same thing as "current".

Just look at comic books. The Modern Age is everything from the mid 80's until present day. Stuff doesn't get moved over or reclassified just because something newer comes out.

[FFStudios]

I don't know what anyone is talking about. I haven't seen a PS2 game in a Walmart, Target, or GameStop since at least Spring of this year, when GameStop finally phased it out. There is one rack for new DualShock 2 controllers at Walmart, but other than that there are no accessories or games anywhere.

[Leo_A]

I don't know what anyone is talking about. I haven't seen a PS2 game in a Walmart, Target, or GameStop since at least Spring of this year, when GameStop finally phased it out. There is one rack for new DualShock 2 controllers at Walmart, but other than that there are no accessories or games anywhere.

Obviously it's extremely late in the system's commercial lifespan (Which unequivocally is still going in some regions if official releases are still happening). So there is going to be a lot of variance here unlike say 2007 or so when you could fairly state that any store that stocks new videogame product would have new Playstation 2 consoles, new accessories, new software, and new releases.

But the very fact that there's something still there, even if it's limited, points to the fact that this system lasted until very recently as a mainstream console. And at least to me, that very fact is helping leave me neutral where this debate is concerned since I think it fits a bit in both categories. I don't understand those that think there's some rule written in stone here or why the rush.

Some seem so desperate to want to label this as classic that one wonders just what they think is a qualification of a system as modern is. For at least a few here such as the claim that the Super Nintendo magically entered classic status in 1999, the fact that a platform can be making hundreds of millions of dollars, selling millions of systems, many millions more in software and accessories, and is still seeing programming and releases apparently doesn't matter in this kind of a debate.

[DiEsmitty]

I don't know what anyone is talking about. I haven't seen a PS2 game in a Walmart, Target, or GameStop since at least Spring of this year, when GameStop finally phased it out. There is one rack for new DualShock 2 controllers at Walmart, but other than that there are no accessories or games anywhere.

Last time I was in the United States they had them at two games stops I frequent, and a super walmart. At walmart they were next to the red PS3 classic games. Here in Japan they still are a driving force like the PSP. If the weather clears up I will go to Yamada and take some pictures . The point is they are still a factor in the market, maybe in a year or so their market share will shrink down to that of retro clone machines.

[The Adventurer]

To me classic games should be including everything up until the PS1, anything after that like the N64 should be considered modern. At most, the N64 can be considered classic. The term "modern" doesn't mean the same thing as "current".

Just look at comic books. The Modern Age is everything from the mid 80's until present day. Stuff doesn't get moved over or reclassified just because something newer comes out.

Hate to tell you this, but what constitute the comic 'modern age' is just as heavily debated. The 'modern age' certainly doesn't include the 80s and 90s any more. That's firmly in the 'Dark Age' of comics. From Watchmen to... I'd say the launch of Ultimate Marvel and the popularization of super-hero movies.

The term 'Modern age' is a sliding term any way. It encompasses what is presently modern. More then likely the current comic generation will be known as 'the digital age' once time moves on and new aspects of the industry take over.

[Niku-Sama]

When I see new PS2 games in stock, it's not lingering copies of five year old Madden's and such. It's popular games that have been reprinted in recent years that are still actively being stocked by the retailer.



I like how you snip what you want to target out of a thread and take it out of context, you missed quoting the part I mentioned earlier, you know, the part about GTA 3 and Mortal Kombat and how home office keeps sending us those games...
way to go!

so have at it right back, TLDR quoted what I saw, typed what I thought.

[Leo_A]

I like how you snip what you want to target out of a thread and take it out of context, you missed quoting the part I mentioned earlier, you know, the part about GTA 3 and Mortal Kombat and how home office keeps sending us those games...
way to go!

so have at it right back, TLDR quoted what I saw, typed what I thought.

I'm sorry I upset you, but I don't see how that changes anything one way or another. If anything, it supports what I was saying.

But all I was directly responding to you about was what I quoted. What you took offense to not being included doesn't change what you said or my response to it. And I don't even know who TLDR is. It doesn't correspond with any names in here since that post of yours and I seem to have been the only one that quoted anything from that post.

[FFStudios]

Nobody is ever going to convince me that the PS2 is not a "classic console". Most computer hardware from 2000 gets slapped with the label "legacy" and isn't used anymore. Stop trying to use arbitrary arguments like game releases to justify it. Just because you can still buy 3.5" floppy disk USB readers doesn't mean floppy disks are modern technology.

[Leo_A]

If most computers produced today came equipped with it, I'd sure as heck argue for it being an element that constitutes a modern computer.

If we're going to suddenly start to bring in computer standards here, not only are the main two consoles presently on the marketplace not modern, they're absolutely archaic at 7-8 years of age. And that simply just doesn't wash with me that they're anything but a modern game console.

At the rate some of you folks are going, if the Xbox One and Playstation 4 enjoy much longer lifespans than this generation did before intended successors are released, you'll be calling for it to be moved over to classic gaming before successors are ever even announced if this site somehow manages to still exist by then.

[Gameguy]

If we're going to bring up computers, does anyone actually consider computer hardware from the year 2000 to be classic? Or is it just old?

[The Adventurer]

If we're going to bring up computers, does anyone actually consider computer hardware from the year 2000 to be classic? Or is it just old?

When it comes to PC gaming, what differentiates 'classic' and it's cut offs are a little bit different. It's not really about hardware, but technique. The current 'modern' generation is largely defined by the proliferation of HD graphics.

There are a lot of games I would consider classic that came out around the year 2000. The year 2000 was right in the middle of the early days of 3D and online multiplayer gaming. Unreal Tournament, Elder Scrolls Marrowind, Everquest, Deus Ex, Counter Strike, etc... Etc... Definitely a easily defined era the 2000s, with many a classic game. 1998 (launch of Half Life) to 2008 (launch of Crysis, maybe) would be a good gaming epoch. This period of course followed the Shareware Era of gaming which ID Software (and Apogee) kicked off around 1990 with Commander Keen, and which ended just after Quake 2.

[Niku-Sama]

Yea classic pc games to me would be dude scrolling duke nukem, myst, basically allot of dos stuff and Apple II stuff and the like. retro would be mechwarrior, duke nukem 3d etc etc etc.

might even consider quack 3 and unreal/ unreal tournament retro

[SuperEliteGamer]

It's two gens behind ffs....

[FFStudios]

If most computers produced today came equipped with it, I'd sure as heck argue for it being an element that constitutes a modern computer.

This is actually the worst argument you could have possibly posted. This proves what I'm saying. What you just said is like saying "If GameStop still stocked NES games, I'd sure as heck argue that it constitutes a modern console". My whole point is that they don't. How did you miss that?


If we're going to suddenly start to bring in computer standards here, not only are the main two consoles presently on the marketplace not modern, they're absolutely archaic at 7-8 years of age. And that simply just doesn't wash with me that they're anything but a modern game console.

Just in case you never sat down and thought about it: consoles are computers. I think you totally missed the point of my analogy because I didn't use menial comparisons like graphics chips and processors which we still have not used to their full potential until very very recently (think The Last Of Us, Grand Theft Auto 5).


At the rate some of you folks are going, if the Xbox One and Playstation 4 enjoy much longer lifespans than this generation did before intended successors are released, you'll be calling for it to be moved over to classic gaming before successors are ever even announced if this site somehow manages to still exist by then.

This is a slippery slope argument and I think you ought to know enough about those for me to sufficiently say that I don't really need to respond to this. Saying that just because I'm a "classic PS2" advocate means I am going to call for the PS4/Xbone's re-classification later down the line is ridiculous.

[Leo_A]

If 3.5" drives were extremely common on a PC in 2013, it's because it's widely being used by users worldwide. So it of course would be an element that constitutes a modern PC just like how a CRT in 2000 that just rolled off Sony's production line could be a modern tv back in 2000 despite essentially being over half century old technology at the time. That's what I said to you, but of course they aren't common and they're not being used by the average individual so they're not.

How did you miss that point? When the PS2 is just disappearing, the system hasn't been out of production very long, it still has a lot of product stocked out there at mainstream retailers and is being restocked in some instances, was Sony's last generation console when the thread was started, is still seeing new product manufactured for it (And not by niche firms catering to a small number of classic gamers), appears to be still played by millions of people, and is still seeing new official releases from major publishers, it's at the very least a very debatable point where to classify it where this completely ambiguous standard is concerned.

And that's all I ever said and I think that's perfectly fair even if every last person in this thread disagrees with me (And it sure seems like it :)). And it's the last I'm going to say on that. It's an extremely simple statement that should have never required a dozen posts trying to explain it further. It's purely 100% subjective if a system is classic or modern and I merely offered my opinion that it could easily swing either way and was even willing to debate and explain why I thought that.

[Rickstilwell1]

Well one thing's for certain. The PS2 is older than the Gamecube and Xbox, but the Gamecube and Xbox will be considered classic before the PS2 is.

[Bojay1997]

Well one thing's for certain. The PS2 is older than the Gamecube and Xbox, but the Gamecube and Xbox will be considered classic before the PS2 is.

Agree strongly.

[Graham Mitchell]

I'm with Leo. Ps2 to me is a modern system because the bulk of the games for it are just low-res versions of today's cutting-edge console games with shitty camera controls. It's similar in concept to how snes games are just nes games with a higher color palette and wavetable sounds. Gaming hasn't really changed all that much since the ps2 was king, if you really think about it, other than distribution methods. No new genres really came about since then, just refinement of the old ones.

That's just my opinion, though. It's irrelevant to whether or not ps2 goes tothe classic gaming section. I'm fine with that. It's just such an arbitrary designation, that's all.

[devilman]

As for the organization of these message boards, Classic is for consoles released before the year 2000 while Modern is for consoles released in 2000 or later. Think of it as the distinction between B.C. and A.D. (or for you more contemporary types, the difference between B.C.E. and C.E.).

This split on the year 2000 is to keep maintenance easy and hassle-free. After all, if we kept Modern Gaming as a moving target, every few years we'd have to redo things either by moving thousands of threads or creating a new sub-forum for the latest stuff. As you might imagine, it would start looking like five different forums with the 1970's, 1980's, 1990's, 2000's, and 2010's each having their own forum... and eventually we'd need to add a sixth.

But to keep it simple, we split the difference on 2000 A.D. Think of it as, "Classic Gaming covers the first thirty years of consoles and Modern Gaming covers everything after that."

This makes the most sense to me. Classic or not, I wouldn't fancy a moderator's task of trawling through all the PS2 threads in Modern Gaming to move them into Classic. Even if you didn't move them but just changed the classification, you'd have new PS2 threads in Classic while the old ones sat in Modern. Makes sense to just leave the cut-off as is - from a forum point of a view at least. Away from the forum, I suppose it's now a classic format, but not based on any particular measurement. :)

[Niku-Sama]

I figure none of the old posts, before the designation changed from modern to classic would move. considering because when those posts were made they were while it was considered a modern system.
how ever new posts in modern about PS2 would happen for a while but eventually people will get the idea like they did with xbox and gamecube, and move them or slowly migrate over to classic.
theres always a time where they will cross over but it shouldn't matter a whole lot

[JSoup]

I figure none of the old posts, before the designation changed from modern to classic would move. considering because when those posts were made they were while it was considered a modern system.
how ever new posts in modern about PS2 would happen for a while but eventually people will get the idea like they did with xbox and gamecube, and move them or slowly migrate over to classic.
theres always a time where they will cross over but it shouldn't matter a whole lot

This is my thinking as well.

[Niku-Sama]

the 15th nears, what do you think?

[TonyTheTiger]

If we're going to bring up computers, does anyone actually consider computer hardware from the year 2000 to be classic? Or is it just old?

I think you hit it. "Classic" is a loaded term which is why this debate is going on. When we talk modern gaming, what we mean is "contemporary," "right now," "current." That's easy enough to nail down. But with something like the PS2, which to anyone over 20 still feels like yesterday, calling it "classic" sounds strange. Classic to who? The PS2 definitely isn't current but that word "classic" is probably what's bothering people.

But ultimately it's six of one, half dozen of the other. Either Classic Gaming starts to encompass more and more consoles as they slide into it or Modern Gaming does if it keeps firm with the year 2000 divide. But I think the one thing about the 2000 divide that I find weird is that it splits the Dreamcast and PS2.

[BlastProcessing402]

Just because some stores still sell PS2 stuff (you brought up Walmart...there's no PS2 stuff in any walmart I've been in for several years now. It must be an American thing in major cities only?

Nope, the Walmarts I've been to don't have PS2 stuff and haven't for a long time, with the exception of the red/blue memory card 2 pack with a clearance price tag on it (but the price still not a very "clearancy" price) and crappy games no one wants in the giant "just throw everything we can't sell in here" discount bins. And even those have been gone a while.

[JSoup]

Nope, the Walmarts I've been to don't have PS2 stuff and haven't for a long time, with the exception of the red/blue memory card 2 pack with a clearance price tag on it (but the price still not a very "clearancy" price) and crappy games no one wants in the giant "just throw everything we can't sell in here" discount bins. And even those have been gone a while.

To be fair, it's somewhat regional. I looked around for PS2 games at my Walmart the other day and found plenty. Clerk mentioned that they still had boxes of $10 PS2 games in the back, they just toss them on the shelves or the bargain bins as space filler.

[Leo_A]

I didn't dig through the bargain bin [Edit: I've since looked and it's all 360/PS3/Wii/DS], but after speaking about it in this thread, I checked the latest availability at the Wal-Mart closest to me to see if what I said still applied where that particular store was concerned. Still has GTA Trilogy and the Mortal Kombat Collection on the shelves for $20 or so each. Fewest it has ever been so I'm sure that the day is coming soon where I can walk into the average Wal-Mart and not see anything for the PS2.

Was tempted by the GTA collection. But since I own the Xbox counterpart, I'd of never played it anyways with nicer looking versions with custom soundtrack support available to me.

[Bojay1997]

I was at a Toys R Us today at lunch and they still had maybe 20+ different bargain and clearance PS2 games in the glass display cases.

[Crystalian]

They could just make a new section called "Current Generation Gaming". Anything 3DS, Vita, or WiiU-related would have to be moved, but then it would be easy to consider systems as "packets". Anytime the next console generation starts, merge "current" with "modern" and start with a clean "current". The problem is this boat left the harbor when the WiiU came out, so it would take a bit of work. If the technology behind the entire forum allows for categorizing threads by system-type, then making a "marker" to tell which system a thread is about when it's created would be the perfect solution. You make a thread about PSP and before it's published, apply the PSP "marker". Now the search feature should be able to filter out threads without the "marker" when you check the PSP box in the search tool. That would make it easy as 1-2-3 to backport all the PSP threads into modern now that the Vita is out, and then do it again to classic when the Vita 2 or 3 comes out. Of course then we'll need a "vintage" or "antique" category as well, LOL.

[FFStudios]

I just think DP did it to themselves by creating two subforums with incredible vague descriptors. I propose "Current Gen" - "Last Gen" - "Classic"

That would be very easy, and of course you could tweak those titles to make them sound a lot nicer.

[Dr. BaconStein]

What about the handhelds? GBA was basically like a portable SNES before SupaBoy existed, plus it's now showing up on clones such as the RetroN 5 and Retro-Bit's adapter. DS and PSP also had a lot of N64 and PS1 ports on them, and despite being listed as 7th gen, they came out much earlier than the 7th gen consoles, especially the DS which is nearly a decade old.


I just think DP did it to themselves by creating two subforums with incredible vague descriptors. I propose "Current Gen" - "Last Gen" - "Classic"

That would be very easy, and of course you could tweak those titles to make them sound a lot nicer.I kind of like this idea as well. Gen 7 is still pretty modern, but being the longest console generation as well as some systems now ending production (like the Wii), on top of the aforementioned handhelds leaves a bit of gap.

[buzz_n64]

What about the handhelds? GBA was basically like a portable SNES before SupaBoy existed, plus it's now showing up on clones such as the RetroN 5 and Retro-Bit's adapter.

The GBA includes the FX chip on board, unlike the SNES, a 32 bit gaming system that also contains GBC hardware.

SNES

CPU reference
Processor Ricoh 5A22, based on a 16-bit 65c816 core
Clock rates (NTSC) Input: 21.47727 MHz
Bus: 3.58 MHz, 2.68 MHz, or 1.79 MHz
Clock rates (PAL) Input: 21.28137 MHz
Bus: 3.55 MHz, 2.66 MHz, or 1.77 MHz
Buses 24-bit and 8-bit address buses, 8-bit data bus
64 kB[e] of SRAM for storing video data (VRAM), 544 bytes of object attribute memory (OAM) for storing sprite data, and 256 × 15 bits of color generator RAM (CGRAM) for storing palette data. The PPU is clocked by the same signal as the CPU, and generates a pixel every two or four cycles. Both NTSC and PAL systems use the same PPU chips, with one pin per chip selecting NTSC or PAL operation.


GBA

CPU: 16.8 MHz 32-bit ARM7TDMI with embedded memory. 8 or 4 MHz 8-bit Z80 coprocessor for Game Boy emulation.
Memory: 32 kilobyte + 96 kilobyte VRAM (internal to the CPU), 256 kilobyte WRAM (outside the CPU).
Resolution: 240 × 160 pixels (3:2 aspect ratio).
Color support: 15-bit RGB (16-bit color space using 5 bits depth per channel), capable of displaying 512 simultaneous colors in "character mode" and 32,768 (215) simultaneous colors in "bitmap mode".
Sound: Dual 8-bit DAC for stereo sound (called Direct Sound), plus all legacy channels from Game Boy. The new DACs can be used to play back streams of wave data, or can be used to output multiple wave samples processed/mixed in software by the CPU.

Similiar, but the fact that it's a portable forgives the uderpowered specs for the generation that it's in.

[Nz17]

What if the overall forum were divided by decade by North American release-date in accordance to console hardware? So there'd be separate forums for 1970's, 1980's, 1990's, 2000's, & 2010's consoles/hardware/games. For example, the PS3 still has games being released today, but its console was originally released in N.A. in the 2000's, so all discussion about the PS3 and its games would go into the 2000's Forum.

[JSoup]

What if the overall forum were divided by decade by North American release-date in accordance to console hardware? So there'd be separate forums for 1970's, 1980's, 1990's, 2000's, & 2010's consoles/hardware/games. For example, the PS3 still has games being released today, but its console was originally released in N.A. in the 2000's, so all discussion about the PS3 and its games would go into the 2000's Forum.

Over complicating a simple problem. Either leave it how it is, or move some of the systems from modern to classic. Hold a vote if you must.

[buzz_n64]

What if the overall forum were divided by decade by North American release-date in accordance to console hardware? So there'd be separate forums for 1970's, 1980's, 1990's, 2000's, & 2010's consoles/hardware/games. For example, the PS3 still has games being released today, but its console was originally released in N.A. in the 2000's, so all discussion about the PS3 and its games would go into the 2000's Forum.

In theory I like your idea, but it does complicate things like the Genesis and SNES. In Japan 1988 and 1990 respectively, but from the same generation. Maybe 3 sections? Vintage, classic, and modern?