Starfox 2 Gameplay discussion

[extra_anchovy]

was anyone else really dissapointed by Starfox 2? It looked like it had a lot of promise but it's way too simple.
way to easy and too quick to finish, nowhere near the game that Starfox was. Levels are way too short and too small, 1 dimensional. Bosses are all the same and all very easy
If only it was developed more it definitely could have been much better then Starfox

[The Adventurer]

I actually LOVE Star Fox 2's gameplay, and appreciate its differences from Star Fox and Star Fox 64. Here's why. I've never played a game with such a sense of URGENCY. The solar system is under attack, and you have to defend your homeworld in (sort of) real time. You can't fuss around, because every moment another missile is inbound. Yes, its a fast game to beat, but its built around that. Other Star Fox games are also pretty quick to beat, gameplay longevity isn't really what Star Fox is about, all the best Star Fox games can be beaten within an hour really. High scores, speed runs (in SF2's case), and different progression paths; are where the enjoyment comes from.

I will say better design sensibility could have gone into the planet missions, capital ship missions are broken (you can just boost through all the enemy waves and take minimal damage), and the SNES controller isn't the best for 3D run and gunning in the walker. Most boss variety would have been cool too. But overall, for what it is? I dig Star Fox 2 a lot. Really pissed that its spiritual successor, Star Fox Command, had such horrible controls.

[Tanooki]

If you're only playing the game on the default difficulty that's your problem.

Try playing it on a harder difficulty. The basic level has you drop 2 battleships and 2 planets, plus the bounty hunters and that's it. The higher difficulties increases the levels of the attacking incoming fighters and missiles. It ups the numbers of battleships and planets to deal with as well and their ferocity. At the highest level you have a new factor thrown in which are viruses and they can hack into your orbital platform among other things and then turn them against your side, so you'll have to go in and blow those things up as well to recover your hardware. The game isn't so cut and dry, let alone an easy 20min game when you crank it up. Yes it's not a linear line shooter down a corridor like the SNES #1/N64 titles, but it's not cake.

[wiggyx]

was anyone else really dissapointed by Starfox 2? It looked like it had a lot of promise but it's way too simple.
way to easy and too quick to finish, nowhere near the game that Starfox was. Levels are way too short and too small, 1 dimensional. Bosses are all the same and all very easy
If only it was developed more it definitely could have been much better then Starfox

Nope.

[Satoshi_Matrix]

was anyone else really dissapointed by Starfox 2? It looked like it had a lot of promise but it's way too simple.
way to easy and too quick to finish, nowhere near the game that Starfox was. Levels are way too short and too small, 1 dimensional. Bosses are all the same and all very easy
If only it was developed more it definitely could have been much better then Starfox

Wait... let me get this right.

You're asking:

was anyone else really disappointed when they were able to play a game that was never actually released and is only playable through the kindness of fellow retro gamers and also coders who fixed critical flaws to make the prototype fully playable? It looked like it had a lot of promise but it's way too simple by which I mean, about 10x as complex as Star Fox 1.
Way too easy and too quick to finish unless you know, you don't play it on easy.

Nowhere near the game that Starfox was, because Star Fox 1 was an incredibly lengthy game as you all know. The prototype game which was not completed has levels are short/small. This fully 3D game is completely what I would call 1 dimensional. Bosses are all the same and all very easy, almost as if it were a prototype of a game that wasn't finished and not released. If only it was developed more it definitely could have been much better than Starfox.

If so.....

http://www.iowascribe.com/uploads/6/9/0/1/6901504/4926612_orig.jpg

[Rickstilwell1]

Yeah, really. Nobody even knows how long the game could have been if it had been finished. They could have added more levels, thrown in some Star Fox 1 type stages in between levels like they did in Star Fox 64 where you basically got mostly Star Fox 1 type levels with a few Star Fox 2 type levels. The whole reason it was scrapped was because they thought they would rather start developing the N64 version which is more graphically appealing.

You really can't judge this game along the others because it is basically a demo version.

[Leo_A]

Star Fox 2 was finished according to Argonaut Software. And what's floating around out there that has been modified was a very late revision of the source code according to what I've read over the years with the debugger turned off and translated into English (unlike the very early version that was once all we had access to a decade or so ago). There's a few glitches and such but it seems to reflect being very late in development.

I don't care for Star Fox 2 but technically, it does push the Super Nintendo in some interesting ways and is a neat bit of Nintendo history. As a big fan of the original, I wish they had been a bit less ambitious and pursued something more akin to the original but with a lot of polish. There was just something with the original that really grabbed me. Fun gameplay, interesting levels full of varied obstacles and enemies, a lot of variety, lots of nice little touches like the crash sequence, and I love the beautiful backgrounds and music and the atmosphere they lent to the game.

One thing I do praise though is the variability that some others have mentioned.

[Greg2600]

SF2 vs. SF1 is a fairly significant difference IMO. Much improved game, which is par the course for Nintendo when releasing sequels.

[fahlim003]

StarFox 2 is a step in a new direction and is aimed at having greater variety given that no two plays are the same. It's fast paced and flexible while keeping things fresh as the game will throw new waves of enemies. I enjoy that battles can be quick and varied - a it's a change of pace from the fixed/scripted long stages from the original. Both work in their respective executions. I would've bought StarFox 2 on day one had it been officially released.

[extra_anchovy]

Wait... let me get this right.

You're asking:

was anyone else really disappointed when they were able to play a game that was never actually released and is only playable through the kindness of fellow retro gamers and also coders who fixed critical flaws to make the prototype fully playable? It looked like it had a lot of promise but it's way too simple by which I mean, about 10x as complex as Star Fox 1.
Way too easy and too quick to finish unless you know, you don't play it on easy.

Nowhere near the game that Starfox was, because Star Fox 1 was an incredibly lengthy game as you all know. The prototype game which was not completed has levels are short/small. This fully 3D game is completely what I would call 1 dimensional. Bosses are all the same and all very easy, almost as if it were a prototype of a game that wasn't finished and not released. If only it was developed more it definitely could have been much better than Starfox.

If so.....

http://www.iowascribe.com/uploads/6/9/0/1/6901504/4926612_orig.jpg

that's not at all what I'm saying. I'm not ungrateful that the game is available due to people dumping the ROM. that's great. in fact I bought a repro of it so I can enjoy it on real hardware. I'm just comparing the gameplay, as it seems like it was complete, to the original Starfox. Which in my humble opinion, and other peoples if you look at the reply's, wasn't as good as the original Starfox. I just felt the overall quality of it is lacking, especially that the bosses are all the same, some levels have a very tiny area and are very short, hardly any substance. even though I'm playing it on normal the original starfox was difficult even on the easiest difficulty, there's just way more gameplay value in the original one. also keep your dam spock slapping his forehead to yourself, why is there this trend on social media to show people slapping their forehead. I think it started with South Park as the characters would do that and everybody just mindlessly copies

[Tanooki]

You know those like you who don't like it because it's lacking or not as good as the original haven't played it right. Why is that so hard to understand?

Play it on expert, then come back and say it is lacking. There is a wiki online that shows the differences between all 3 modes of the game, and it really does clearly show playing on expert adds a LOT to the game.

Read this! http://strategywiki.org/wiki/Star_Fox_2/Difficulty

EXPERT:

You will have to destroy six bases and four battleships.
Andross will send out two bosses to fight you.
All planets are playable. (easy has just 2 worlds that are fast)
Andrew of Star Wolf will appear. (Also not killing these guys(they run) on expert, their health refills to full)
Viruses will appear more often.
Battleships will fire the Planet Cannon more often.
The Satellite Defense System will charge its cannon at the same rate as in Hard Mode.

Oh and to spell this out, on easy(normal) you have one boss, the Mirage Dragon, on hard and expert you have 4 bosses and the game randomizes which you get: Mirage Dragon / Hunter Phantron / Hunter Tektron / Space Blade. Andross per-difficulty adds another 'final form' to take down before the game ends.

Disparaging the game as short, broken and patched, incomplete, easy, and not worth the effort just shows gamer ignorance of not playing it on a higher difficulty level. The english adapted main screen gives us Normal, Hard and Expert, perhaps it translates to that, but really Normal is TRAINING mode as the others throw more at you, especially the missing stuff in normal (full wolf team, viruses, standard load of battleships/targets, and all the planets.) Expert adds more viruses and extra space based attack ships.

I get tired of seeing this game ripped on. Leo_A is right, the game was complete and basically was in a final beta state with some minor bugs and a FPS counter on screen that wasn't removed and these things were patched up and later someone translated the whole script into english. The game itself isn't missing anything other than perhaps if they wanted to have a multiplayer combat mode which was in an early test beta that hit the internet before the final beta version of the game we enjoy put onto carts or in emulators.


Also that's not spock, it's captain picard. :P

[extra_anchovy]

whatever I was never a fan of startrek :P, seen few episodes but never got into it. normally it was on really late, so I didn't get to see it much.

not hard to understand I will try it on expert and report back
and this is only MY opinion based on my experience, don't have to take that seriously.
reason why I made this thread is so people can tell me why it's good.
I never said it was broken or not worth the effort. playing it on normal was just disappointing for me when compared to the the original.
as I recall in the original starfox you could choose the easiest path and it would still be a challenge and keep you occupied for 1-2 hours at least.
that was the yard stick and I just expected the sequel to better it, or at least match it.

[Tanooki]

I don't take it too serious, it was a larger issue as I've seen complaining about it as much as loving on it since the legit full game popped up online like a decade ago. It seems most people think that the difficulty change just makes things more aggressive but the game is still small, quick, and lacking merit. Nintendo did a disservice making setting up and calling normal mode what it is as it's more of a trainer/game for little kids as it's super simple.

In the original star fox you're right, there's easy, medium and hard courses, but to get to them initially you had to choose a course, but depending what you do in the medium and hard lines you can be sent back to an easier stage. In all though I think Starfox probably takes maybe 30min to finish as it's super short, but the ride is just so fun you don't realize it.

Also it's amusing yet sad to see how much they adored the game considering the amount lifted into star fox 64. All range mode, the walking arwing, your mother ship and its role, etc.

[Rickstilwell1]

Star Fox 2 was finished according to Argonaut Software. And what's floating around out there that has been modified was a very late revision of the source code according to what I've read over the years with the debugger turned off and translated into English (unlike the very early version that was once all we had access to a decade or so ago). There's a few glitches and such but it seems to reflect being very late in development.

I don't care for Star Fox 2 but technically, it does push the Super Nintendo in some interesting ways and is a neat bit of Nintendo history. As a big fan of the original, I wish they had been a bit less ambitious and pursued something more akin to the original but with a lot of polish. There was just something with the original that really grabbed me. Fun gameplay, interesting levels full of varied obstacles and enemies, a lot of variety, lots of nice little touches like the crash sequence, and I love the beautiful backgrounds and music and the atmosphere they lent to the game.

One thing I do praise though is the variability that some others have mentioned.

Wait do you remember which year the new rom version was released? I want to see if that was before or after I downloaded my first rom sets.

[Tanooki]

The game itself was finished in June 22 of 1995 or around then, it's an internal time stamp on the game we've been bootlegging to play, and the game was plotted at first for a Summer 1995 release but Miyamoto being an idiot canned the game thinking the N64 would be out a year earlier and wanted to get away from old crusty 3D on SNES. :)

As far as the alpha(beta1), beta 2, and (final) beta 3 (release candidtate) it's hard to peg down. In the later 90s there was this website called cherryroms that released well ROMS (they got busted some time later so it's long dead.) They had the game listed as undumped, but then pulled it between May and Sept of 1999, so some version of it popped up that early on and supposedly that was the alpha that just had a few flight tests, odd menus, little combat or of anything to do. The game we fell in love with from the CES in the 90s was farther along than this file however it got out. I'm not certain when beta2 popped up, but I do remember that the final test release beta, that came out in August of 2002.

There's some history well more detailed on this at snescentral.com if you want to dig into it.

It states what we're playing with is the final game, but it just doesn't have level select, framerate indicator and poly count per scene, level skip cheats etc removed. To be clear though since that period there are 2 versions of the final beta out there. There's one with that stuff still there, then the rom hacked version that cleans the stuff out as the developer said they would have and makes it entirely stock to an actual release with the test stuff removed.

[Rickstilwell1]

The game itself was finished in June 22 of 1995 or around then, it's an internal time stamp on the game we've been bootlegging to play, and the game was plotted at first for a Summer 1995 release but Miyamoto being an idiot canned the game thinking the N64 would be out a year earlier and wanted to get away from old crusty 3D on SNES. :)

As far as the alpha(beta1), beta 2, and (final) beta 3 (release candidtate) it's hard to peg down. In the later 90s there was this website called cherryroms that released well ROMS (they got busted some time later so it's long dead.) They had the game listed as undumped, but then pulled it between May and Sept of 1999, so some version of it popped up that early on and supposedly that was the alpha that just had a few flight tests, odd menus, little combat or of anything to do. The game we fell in love with from the CES in the 90s was farther along than this file however it got out. I'm not certain when beta2 popped up, but I do remember that the final test release beta, that came out in August of 2002.

There's some history well more detailed on this at snescentral.com if you want to dig into it.

It states what we're playing with is the final game, but it just doesn't have level select, framerate indicator and poly count per scene, level skip cheats etc removed. To be clear though since that period there are 2 versions of the final beta out there. There's one with that stuff still there, then the rom hacked version that cleans the stuff out as the developer said they would have and makes it entirely stock to an actual release with the test stuff removed.

Ah I see. I believe I had the one with the level select so the game seemed really random to me and looked like a test copy. I felt like I was playing Mario Kart, just picking from random levels to play in.

[Tanooki]

The older incomplete betas weren't much fun. I used to keep copies of every release version of that game that squeaked out, but then didn't see the point when a final test beta was put out there and an english patch/clean-up of the FPS/polygons/level skip was removed. I just keep the assumed intended final release version as some would see it. It's amazing how good this was and equally amazing how ignorant and arrogant Nintendo is NOT to release their own damn game with all the cheap and free opportunities they've had. There was the Wii and now Wii U virtual console, and even on a past release like the GC game with the freebies thrown in there earning those yellow flags, they could have tossed it on there too as an unlockable. I just don't understand why they'd not choose to make a lot of money off star fox fans not shoving it up on the virtual console for even an inflated $10 like Earthbound. Imagine the media buzz and shitstorm of happiness that would occur if that one popped up online to buy so many years after being killed (1995~.)

If by some 0.01% chance they did I hope they'd mark 'normal' as training, then hard as normal and expert as hard because only when you do hard you get all the worlds, all the bosses, the viruses/infections, and the rest. It's still on paper short, but when you have to deal with all the extra areas, the added aggressiveness and enemies added onto the planet side stuff, the bosses, recharging shields of the star wolf team, and more forms of andross at the end it all adds up.

[Leo_A]

They don't seem to have any interest in emulating the Super FX chip for whatever reason. Can't be any Argonaut Games patents that they're worried about since any Super FX related patents expired several years back.

[wiggyx]

The game itself was finished in June 22 of 1995 or around then, it's an internal time stamp on the game we've been bootlegging to play, and the game was plotted at first for a Summer 1995 release but Miyamoto being an idiot canned the game thinking the N64 would be out a year earlier and wanted to get away from old crusty 3D on SNES. :)

As far as the alpha(beta1), beta 2, and (final) beta 3 (release candidtate) it's hard to peg down. In the later 90s there was this website called cherryroms that released well ROMS (they got busted some time later so it's long dead.) They had the game listed as undumped, but then pulled it between May and Sept of 1999, so some version of it popped up that early on and supposedly that was the alpha that just had a few flight tests, odd menus, little combat or of anything to do. The game we fell in love with from the CES in the 90s was farther along than this file however it got out. I'm not certain when beta2 popped up, but I do remember that the final test release beta, that came out in August of 2002.

There's some history well more detailed on this at snescentral.com if you want to dig into it.

It states what we're playing with is the final game, but it just doesn't have level select, framerate indicator and poly count per scene, level skip cheats etc removed. To be clear though since that period there are 2 versions of the final beta out there. There's one with that stuff still there, then the rom hacked version that cleans the stuff out as the developer said they would have and makes it entirely stock to an actual release with the test stuff removed.

Seeing as Nintendo is the only current console producer who has been around since the 3rd gen, it's hard to agree with this. It's not always easy for hardcore nerds like us to understand the logic behind such a decision because we all wanted and still want these old, unreleased games. But back in '95, when the Playstation was hitting the market with its far superior (to the SNES) 3D capabilities, Nintendo may have made a very wide choice to not release what would have been a very expensive (to produce) cart which would have displayed pretty weak visuals by comparison.

[Tanooki]

Maybe, maybe not and we'll likely never know for certain. But as for now, I think it would be a solid release if they'd bother to emulate the Super FX chip on the virtual console which they have not done at all. Between the Wii and Wii U they've handled the DSP, the CX4(MMX2), SDD1(SF Alpha 2), and the SA1(SMRPG, Kirby) so maybe someone owns the current tech behind it because it has been passed between developers since Argonaut had it and that's why.

[Leo_A]

Over 20 years have passed so those patent rights sailed away several years ago. So it's not a rights issue with emulating the chip itself.

If there's a legal stumbling point here that's holding things up, it's with the software itself. Perhaps Argonaut Software held partial copyrights to both Star Fox titles and Stunt Race FX and Nintendo doesn't want to pay royalties or licensing fees if there's even a surviving entity to make a deal with. Seems weird though that Nintendo wouldn't of bought those missing pieces (if that's even the reason they're absent since this is only speculation) when Argonaut Software went bankrupt and had its assets auctioned off a decade ago.

That leaves Yoshi's Island which they're releasing in its cropped, voice enhanced, inferior audio, and brightened up GBA form. But it's still an excellent port despite a few drawbacks and has some exclusive levels for the very dedicated player that's willing to go after 100% (I've finished both Yoshi's Islands including the original in both its forms and never even inadvertently earned 100% on a single level so I'm sure it's quite a challenge to 100%).

Perhaps because of the presence of the GBA port, they just don't see justification for whatever the reasons might be to make that investment. All they're left with for release candidates are Star Fox which internet forums have dragged through the mud in recent years, a game that never saw release originally, and Stunt Race FX.

[Leo_A]

Confirmation of sorts that Star Fox 2 indeed was fully finished.

http://www.nintendolife.com/news/2015/05/a_totally_complete_version_of_star_fox_2_really_do es_exist

Makes it all the more annoying that Super FX titles remain absent on the Wii U. And I'm pretty skeptical that any issues exist with the defunct Argonaut Software, like he speculates. Super FX patents are expired, there's no embedded code that would remain protected by copyright, and it would be pretty unlike Nintendo to not have full ownership of their own range of Super FX releases.

And even in the unlikely event that they didn't hold clear title to a title like Star Fox 2, Argonaut Software folded on the eve of the release of the Nintendo Wii just as Nintendo was underway with launching the original Virtual Console. Hard to imagine Nintendo failing to secure whatever rights they didn't already have as that company was being liquidated, just as Nintendo was preparing to relaunch many of their classics digitally.

I'm confident that the numbers just don't add up for them, particularly when Yoshi's Island is available in fine alternate form, to justify the programming necessary to emulate this chip to their satisfaction.

[Tanooki]

Damnit, so much for the information that had been out there all this time. It makes you wonder how incomplete Starfox 2 we have really is, if he's being straight up about it and Nintendo doesn't have some arm twisting on that. I think there would be nothing but Nintendo holding that up from coming out as the coding for the emulator to work on their VC probably wouldn't be very easy and Yoshis Island on SNES kind of leans to show they don't want to go there when they put it out in other easier forms.

At least the supposed unfinished game we got is fun, takes time, and is a solid challenge played on expert. Far more than those NOA tools would let us have back in the 90s thinking their pipe dream of the Ultra64 would be out nearly 2 years earlier which killed it. The fact companies will sit on a finished game, especially one with a big fan base behind it is so confusing at times.

[Guntz]

I absolutely love Star Fox 2, what an awesome sequel. Where the original was arcade-styled with its fast linear action, Star Fox 2 was more home-oriented with its wider variety and multiple choice approach. It's still really fast paced with the ongoing attack from Andross though. I've only had the game in cartridge format for a couple of years, but I really wish I had sought out this game sooner now. I would have loved Star Fox 2 as a kid, it would have been right up there with my other SNES favorites.

Although pretty much the whole game is awesome, my absolute favorite addition in Star Fox 2 is the Arwing Walker. For those of us who fell for the Super Mario FX rumors, being able to walk around and jump on platforms in Star Fox 2 is the closest we will ever get to that ancient red herring. While I love the enhanced Arwing controls and physics, the Arwing Walker is king to me. It's just so much fun to run and gun through the planet missions. The Walker even uses almost all the buttons on the controller, including the seldom used L and R buttons.

Above all though, I can't believe Star Fox 2 got canceled. It's such an awesome sequel. I'd even go so far as to say it's a better sequel than Star Fox 64. Now, I say that in terms of which sequel innovated more over the original. Star Fox 64 was basically a remake of the original, while Star Fox 2 is like a Super Mario Bros. 2 or Castlevania 2 type of sequel. Perhaps it's not for everyone, but I can't consider my SNES collection complete without Star Fox 2 now.

I guarantee you, if Star Fox 2 did get released, it would be a $100+ game today.

[Tanooki]

I completely agree, down to the price probably too. It would have been out in 1995/96 at the end right up against the N64 much like Kirby's Dream Land 3 was in smaller numbers and you can see what that goes for alone, with book, or the box included too.