Question about Original Famicom and Famicom AV

[wake_me]

Hey guys, quick question. I'm going to be buying a famicom and disk system soon and I was wondering what would be better and why; a av modded original Famicom, or the newer Famicom AV


thanks

[Satoshi_Matrix]

Skirting your question for a moment, regardless of the choice, the best option you have would be not to buy a Famicom Disk System at all. The FDS is such a piece of shit. More retro gamers need to speak up about it. I'm a tech savvy guy, able to repair faulty consoles and the like, but the FDS will bring you one headache after another. Famously, people will tell you that the proprietary disk belt that is required to run the system is prone to snapping on its own and then needing replacements which come from 20 year old dwindling stocks. That's only the start of the FDS's problems.

Much more problematic is that the read header is prone to misalignment on its own, rending the thing unable to read any FDS game, and requiring the precision of a surgeon to get properly aligned again. Then there's the fact that FDS games are stoned on unprotected magnetic tape that is over two decades old. If even the smallest spec of dust contaminates the belt, that sector will become corrupted, which renders the entire disk useless. Slowly but surely, this happened to EVERY SINGLE FDS game I owned. I even bought a copy of Metroid that was brand new, sealed in its package - old stock as its called - and when I opened it and played it, guess what, a sector went bad, and the disk was useless.

I implore you, do NOT buy an FDS. It's prone to severe issues. Instead, buy a Powerpak or Everdrive N8 flashcart and load your FDS roms through that. You'll be eternally glad you did.

Okay, so now back to your initial question.

The AV Famicom HVC-101 is the system to go for. Not only is the composite video going to be better on it, its capable of dual mono, you can use any NES controller you want with it, it still has the Famicom DB-15 expansion port, and it doesn't yellow with age like the original HVC-001. You can use a SNES/N64/Gamecube av cable with it, and also a Super Famicom/model 1 Sega Genesis power supply with it.

[wake_me]

thanks for the info. I really wanted the fds for Super Mario Bros 2, but might not be worth the investment after hearing that. The seller says it has a new belt, but sounds like there are more issues.

I've heard about the ever drive carts. What I wondered is if playing the roms has issues associated with emulation, or do games run perfect because it is on the right hardware?

thanks

[bb_hood]

thanks for the info. I really wanted the fds for Super Mario Bros 2, but might not be worth the investment after hearing that. The seller says it has a new belt, but sounds like there are more issues.

I've heard about the ever drive carts. What I wondered is if playing the roms has issues associated with emulation, or do games run perfect because it is on the right hardware?

thanks

FDS games run fine on my powerpak, but I think FDS games that are more than 1 disc will not play.
Flash carts play the games perfectly because they are being played on the original hardware.

I had a sharp twin famicom just for Mario bros. 2. The FDS version is an excellent game, it puts the snes all-stars version to shame.

[wake_me]

FDS games run fine on my powerpak, but I think FDS games that are more than 1 disc will not play.
Flash carts play the games perfectly because they are being played on the original hardware.

I had a sharp twin famicom just for Mario bros. 2. The FDS version is an excellent game, it puts the snes all-stars version to shame.

ah I didn't even think of that. Are the twin famicom's reliable?

[FoxNtd]

If you scavenge these forums you'll find a lot of info about how the hardware varies. You'll most likely be interested in the major differences though, such as the mic, hardwired vs. detachable controllers, and output (RF/AV).

As for the FDS, choose for yourself. I own 23 games for FDS, some were brand new but mostly used. I've come across about 3 bad disks in my time and sold them off cheaply to people who presumably have modified units for rewriting to "fix" them. None of my existing games have gone bad. I repaired my first FDS which I bought broken, and had it for about 3 years. Definitely long enough to go through all my games many times and all that. I ended up selling that in the original box and now I own a 2nd FDS which I fixed and it's running great.

I've yet to experience the belt failing while playing. I also haven't had an FDS go out of tune either. Not sure how long you have to play your system before one of these things happens, really.

Definitely a bunch of games I really like that are for FDS and the games that use the FM synth really come to life with that distinct vibrant exciting sound it can produce. I wouldn't want to not have my synth for these games now!

[klausien]

This is not FDS related, but there is one negative I've found with the AV Famicom. When playing Konami games that use the VRC chip for extra sound channels, like Akumajou Densetsu (Castlevania 3), the native Famicom channels are substantially softer than the VRC. In other words, it outputs loud music with nearly non-existent sound effects. As a result, I prefer playing the game using the PowerPak and a resistor-modded toaster NES. On the flip side, while the resistor mod restores some of the FDS sound, the FM chip in an actual FDS sounds quite a bit different in games like the original Legend of Zelda. The sword-throwing and door closing sounds come immediately to mind.

[Satoshi_Matrix]

^ While there is some truth to what is said above about expansion sound being softer than 2A03 music on an AV Famicom HVC-101, I have never found it to be a significant issue, and even if it was, it's a small price to pay for all the other benefits the HVC-101 hardware has over the other variants.

As for the Twin Famicom, again I don't recommend it, because half of the hardware is dedicated to the same failure prone FDS. I owned a Twin Famicom for years, and it too suffered the same failings as the standalone, and as its even more integrated and complex, its even harder to service than a standalone FDS. Also, they're mad expensive, especially if you want one with built in turbo fire. Three foot hardwired controllers that plug into the back of the console, inferior composite to the HVC-101, and they're also huge boxy and heavy units like a VCR.

It's also true that the flashcarts can't play FDS games that span multiple disks, but very few did to begin with, and the ones that did were all Japanese text adventures that are not at all import friendly. Probably not games you'd play even if you could run them on the flashcarts.

Again, let me save you the money you'd spend on an FDS+ library and instead invest that in a flashcart. Both the NES Powerpak and the Everdrive are good choices, and they both offer things the other does not, so there's no wrong choice there.

[Rickstilwell1]

I'm thinking when I finally collect some FDS titles like SMB2j it will be just to get the boxes, manual and original disk as a display piece because I can already play the stuff via other means. Maybe I would save some money by purposely buying the dead disks for display instead of working ones?

[ApolloBoy]

^ While there is some truth to what is said above about expansion sound being softer than 2A03 music on an AV Famicom HVC-101, I have never found it to be a significant issue, and even if it was, it's a small price to pay for all the other benefits the HVC-101 hardware has over the other variants.
Actually the expansion audio is too loud on the AV Fami, if you try Akumajou Densetsu on it the VRC6 totally overwhelms the 2A03 audio. You can fix this by changing out the resistors for the two audio pins on the 2A03 for ones with lower resistance, which bumps up the volume.


I owned a Twin Famicom for years, and it too suffered the same failings as the standalone, and as its even more integrated and complex, its even harder to service than a standalone FDS.
Not really, the drive is exactly the same so servicing it is exactly the same as a standalone FDS. Really the only difference is that you have to undo a few more screws in order to open the case. I got through working on my Twin recently when I added an NESRGB and it's honestly not too complicated inside (well, save for the power circuitry which makes no sense).


Also, they're mad expensive, especially if you want one with built in turbo fire. Three foot hardwired controllers that plug into the back of the console, inferior composite to the HVC-101, and they're also huge boxy and heavy units like a VCR.
They're really not that expensive, even the Turbo Twin Fami is only a little bit more expensive. I don't know why on your site you listed the Turbo Twin as being between $300-600 in value considering I've never seen one go for that much unless it was part of a huge lot. I got my red original Twin for $150 shipped, and it was professionally serviced on top of that. True, the hardwired controllers are painfully short but you can use a converter for NES controllers with it. The composite is only a little worse than the AV Fami, but I've noticed it's a little brighter like how it is on the NES front loader. Plus, there's no NES or Famicom system that has the same charm as this beauty:
http://stopxwhispering.files.wordpress.com/2012/05/twin-famicom2_.jpg%3Fw%3D545


Again, let me save you the money you'd spend on an FDS+ library and instead invest that in a flashcart.
Ehh, I've never been completely pleased with how the flash carts tackle FDS games. The wavetable channel always sounds completely off (especially on the Everdrive) and there's something to be said for inserting an actual disk and hearing the drive load the disk. I've never been one for magnetic media but there's just something about the FDS that keeps drawing me back in. I've been through three FDSes and two Twin Famis (including the one I traded to you years ago), and every time I got rid of one, I had the same feelings as you when it came to the FDS. But like I said, the damn thing keeps drawing me back in and I think it's got me for good this time.

[treismac]

...there's no NES or Famicom system that has the same charm as this beauty:
http://stopxwhispering.files.wordpress.com/2012/05/twin-famicom2_.jpg%3Fw%3D545

Simply "wow." That is an absolutely gorgeous looking Twin Famicom. Did you photoshop that picture, Apolloboy? The red is so, sooooo rich.

[FoxNtd]

And he's a jerk for having that Hebereke cart in the Twin. Just rubbing it in, huh. :)

[Gameguy]

The red is so, sooooo rich.
It's soaked in the blood of Nintendo's competitors.

[ApolloBoy]

Simply "wow." That is an absolutely gorgeous looking Twin Famicom. Did you photoshop that picture, Apolloboy?
That's not mine, the picture comes from here: http://retro-video-gaming.com/category/nintendo/twin-famicom/

Although it really is that red.

[Satoshi_Matrix]

I owned a red Twin Famicom too. Its red......as in the red ring of death.

Hate to harp, but again, the FDS is an incredibly unreliable, fault prone format that you can end up sinking hundreds into in hopes of finding one that will work for a good deal of time.

[A Black Falcon]

Can flash carts actually handle the FDS's expanded audio? Of course NESes can't, so the answer is probably no... so you'd be playing FDS games with some audio missing, just like if you were playing it on a NES (unless you do that middle pins to bottom port mod)? That sounds annoying...

[Pikkon]

A nes can if you do a simple mod but on the everdrive playing a game like fds metroid the audio is all of tune,same with a bunch that I have tried.

[wiggyx]

Simply "wow." That is an absolutely gorgeous looking Twin Famicom. Did you photoshop that picture, Apolloboy? The red is so, sooooo rich.

Considering that the rest of the image is B&W, yes, it's been edited. It also appears to have been shot with something other than a cell phone, which helps the cause :P

[ApolloBoy]

I owned a red Twin Famicom too. Its red......as in the red ring of death.
Pfft, whatever.

[Satoshi_Matrix]

Can flash carts actually handle the FDS's expanded audio? Of course NESes can't, so the answer is probably no... so you'd be playing FDS games with some audio missing, just like if you were playing it on a NES (unless you do that middle pins to bottom port mod)? That sounds annoying...

Yes. Both the Powerpak and the Everdrive N8 both support mapper 20 (the FDS mapper) with expansion audio. With a Powerpak, you'll need a slightly modified NES, or a slightly modified NES to Famicom adapter to hear the expansion audio, but yes, it does come through perfectly.

Which is why I continue to standby the statement that there's no reason to own the faulty POS hardware that is the FDS. I wish it were good. I want it to be good. The Twin Famicom especially looks so cool. but the truth of the matter is the hardware is extremely unreliable, at which point you have a Famicom that devotes half of its overall bulk to dead weight. No thank you. I'll take an AV Famicom + flashcart over the Twin any day.

[ccovell]

Yes. Both the Powerpak and the Everdrive N8 both support mapper 20 (the FDS mapper) with expansion audio. With a Powerpak, you'll need a slightly modified NES, or a slightly modified NES to Famicom adapter to hear the expansion audio, but yes, it does come through perfectly.

Which is why I continue to standby the statement that there's no reason to own the faulty POS hardware that is the FDS. I wish it were good. I want it to be good. The Twin Famicom especially looks so cool. but the truth of the matter is the hardware is extremely unreliable, at which point you have a Famicom that devotes half of its overall bulk to dead weight. No thank you. I'll take an AV Famicom + flashcart over the Twin any day.

Satoshi, you're entitled to your opinion, but you're overreacting so much about the FDS that it sounds like sour grapes.

If the belt is old and crusty, the FDS doesn't work.
If the belt has been replaced correctly, the FDS works well.
There's not a lot of middle ground (where the question of reliability comes in.)
∴ When buying FDS hardware, verify it has been replaced.

"There's no reason to own..." is a sweeping statement that can be easily disproved. Here's one: You can't even look at the introductions to Zelda and Doki Doki Panic on the PowerPak and Everdrive. Another: FDS sound timbre (pitch/volume variations) is badly emulated on the Everdrive, and not yet perfect on the PowerPak. Both emulation options produce sour notes. Yet another: FDS emulation on the PowerPak experiences problems (games reset) on FCs/NESes with RGB PPUs (PC-10 PPUs).

I suppose you could say that the reasons for owning a real FDS are not sufficient for you versus their downsides, but there, I've done it: it's now impossible to say there are NO reasons.

[Niku-Sama]

I've never had any problems with my FDS or twin famicom. I can understand wanting it for a collection but I can't understand buying it for just one game.

I started out with the twin famicom, I bought it at super potato for about 98,000 yen about 6 years ago (so about 78 bucks u.s.) and I like it. I bought it for 3d hot rally because I already had a set of glasses for the thing, bought a second set while I was there too with a grip of random ass games

Any way I don't play it a whole lot but I've never run into any problems with the drive and its the same as a famicom with a disk system in the same plastic case. If I were going to get a twin if probably get an anb-505, the one with turbo buttons on the controller. I've also replaced belts on regular fds and its not a big deal. There's gotta be some one making replacement belts some where because there's a ton on eBay, plus I've seen some creative diy replacements.

Never had any problems with head alignments either and some of the fds I get are pretty beat up on the way over seas. I usually ship them surface because of the weight.

Some spelling errors on this but using my phone to post and it picks the most random correct words to replace with other words

[xelement5x]

I've never had any problems with my FDS or twin famicom. I can understand wanting it for a collection but I can't understand buying it for just one game.

I started out with the twin famicom, I bought it at super potato for about 98,000 yen about 6 years ago (so about 78 bucks u.s.) and I like it. I bought it for 3d hot rally because I already had a set of glasses for the thing, bought a second set while I was there too with a grip of random ass games


I think you have an extra power of ten in there, 98000 would be almost a grand (well in today's money).


I've looked at the FDS before in my desire to try a lot of different things, but the problems with it outweigh what I'd want to spend on it. The problem is, what I consider a reasonable price for the thing would probably only get me a broken unit, and I doubt I would really want to invest a ton of time fixing/maintaining it either.

[ApolloBoy]

I think you have an extra power of ten in there, 98000 would be almost a grand (well in today's money).
Yeah I think he meant 9800 yen, which would've been close to $78 in 2007.

[Niku-Sama]

yea, was a phone post...9800

any way I have picked up other games for it since then and I think its a worth while system, I am going to embark on a new quest to see if theres a common replacement for the belt soon. I got one complete but as "junk" not working from the seller I trust on ebay and figuring it was the belt I cracked it open and low and behold it was. I am sure theres something that's gotta fit. probably computer related parts

[ApolloBoy]

I am sure theres something that's gotta fit. probably computer related parts
Make sure to find a belt that's advertised for the FDS, don't just find any old belt and think that it'll work. I've found that if the belt is of the wrong size, it could potentially damage the drive. My Twin Fami's original drive was "repaired" using a rubber band (!) and it wound up seriously damaging the belt pulley in the process. Thankfully the person who sold me my Twin found the problem and swapped the drive out for me.

[Niku-Sama]

Oh no something a little more technical than a rubber band. A lot of floppy drives have similar size belts and there's a minor adjustment I think it's a matter of finding the right brand. Floppy belts are more than just that funny plastic that the fds one was made of.


I'm thinking probably mitsumi of course but others may work

[stopXwhispering]

I just want to say that I've never had any issues with my Famicom Disk system, or any of my Twin Famicom disk drives. All my FDS games have worked perfectly during the 4-5 years that I've had them. I've only encountered 1 game so far that has been faulty, and it was faulty when I got it..
But I bet there's a lot of issues to be found with the system. I'm just saying that it's not all bad all the time for everyone ;)

[BlastProcessing402]

Considering that the rest of the image is B&W, yes, it's been edited. It also appears to have been shot with something other than a cell phone, which helps the cause :P

Nah, that wood looks like the same color as the wood on my deck looked before it got restained, not like someone was shopping a b&w photo.