Playing Genesis (and possibly other systems) ONline against remote human opponents.

[tripletopper]

I was talking to Anthony Gaccione of Sega of America. A few weeks ago, I presented him an idea to turn old video games into old online video games, without reprogramming any code for said original games. I'll tell you my secret I'm selling you n in a minute. He liked the idea, but Said Sega couldn't fund it. I found a place called TryCelery.com which would let me sell preorders, contacted Anthony again, and he told me to go for it, and let him know when I raised the money and did the research.

If I sell 1000 units, I will have enough money to make 1000 and pay for the prototypes, assuming the cost of building a net Genesis is under $20 wholesale. Which it should be because AtGames offered a Genesis and 40 Genesis ROMs and 40 of their own ROMs for $40 retail. I'm not asking for their ROMs yet. They're not important intrinsically to the system.

The basic theory I have is that EVERY old game will work if you are able to beat a 16 ms ping time. Cleveland to Chicago is 600 km, or 2 light milliseconds apart (Light speed is 300,000 km/s) Yet ping times on a typical network are from 40-75 ms. The network was originally a phone network that had to be rock solid and still survive if a place got nuked. The cost of getting you there surely was about 30-100 ms.

Sega Dreamcast suggested all you need is dial up for a good gaming network. They had it half right. Xbox suggests you need broadband to make online gaming work. They have the other half right. A lot of Dreamcast online games were pingy. Xbox games had people pop out of your sights in shooters. Chu Chu Rocket theoretically need only 32 bits/cycle or 1920 bits/second assuming 60 frames/second. CURSOR N,S,E,W, ARROW N,S,E,W, X 4 PLAYERS. The one thing Sega didn't figure on was Ping Time. Japan is a way smaller nation than the US or the EU. Microsoft figured if you can't shave off ping time, take lots of data including every piece of shrapnel and have the network ref it. Microsoft had a good workaround, use high bandwidth to compensate for poor ping time, but if Ping times were better, Sega would have had the better strategy

I found a connection to get you there in 1 ms for every 200-300 km (depending on efficiency). It's Sprint Direct Connect or similar services from At&T and Verizon. I plan to take what is a talking network, convert it to analog squelches, transmit them via Push to Talk, and connect people quick enough. Analog squelches give you 33 kb/s. But if you've got low ping times, you don't need to truck data by the Meg full to have enough information. In this case, quicker is better than more.

A side effect of that, EVERY 2-player (or more) game, no matter how great or obscure will work with the network, because the machine will read in data as fast as it needs to register it. So you can play Combat for the 2600, or M.A.D. for the 2600. And if you don't know what M.A.D. is, my point exactly. It's the most obscure 2-player simultaneous game in my 2600 collection. (though probably someone who is richer than I can probably out-obscure me.)

I am in talks with SNK Playmore and WB Games for the rights to make Net Neo Geos and Net Astrocades. Coleco last time said Net Colecovision is cool, but couldn't fund it. Maybe they'll let me offer preorder Net Colcovisions and Net Geminis (basically a 2600 using off the shelf parts back in the 80s). Finally, I have to talk to Atari and Intellivision for a net 2600 and Net intelliviision respectively. Originally I asked if they can fund now. Now I just need permission to offer pre-orders for net versions of their systems.

The website is http://tryCelery.com/shop/netrogames

[T2KFreeker]

This could probably be a cool idea as long as it works the way it's supposed to. I hope that you get it off the ground because it could be fun to play something like this.

[c0ldb33r]

That's the craziest wall of text I've ever read.

[tripletopper]

That's the craziest wall of text I've ever read.

Sorry about the text wall, I just had a lot to say. If I did a short text, most people would say I'm doing crazy babbling. Turning ordinary games online only sounds crazy if you don't beat the ping time. But someone thought it was coherent.

[Flojomojo]

I like the idea, but $125 up front is a lot to ask for this kind of of unproven thing. Interesting ideas need something to back them up. Wouldn't this be feasible in software emulation? That's where I'd want to see a proof of concept. It's hard enough to find people to play with on established, mainstream systems.

[Pr3tty F1y]

Kaillera (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaillera) or GGPO (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GGPO)?

I just don't see the point of standalone console-clones to do this. The market for it simply isn't there.

[tripletopper]

Kaillera (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaillera) or GGPO (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GGPO)?

I just don't see the point of standalone console-clones to do this. The market for it simply isn't there.

Which net code? The answer is low-ping (sub 16 ms), natural just like it's local.

As for market of clone systems: It's actually a system of clones. There's one network device which would cost $75, initially. (The research costs $17k, and I don't want people paying hefty fees for research. So I'm splitting over 1000 systems. And I'm trying to give myself financial room. If it turns out cheaper than I expect, maybe a partial refund or free other systems would be in order as a thank you.)

The 1:1 clones attach to this network device. These clones are designed to work specifically with this device. But if you don't take it online, you'll still have an original console. 2 other things worth mentioning. The $125 includes a Genesis and a Netrogames device, but future systems will be cheaper. You don't have to buy the most expensive part, the network adapter, again. So you can add a Saturn or Dreamcast to the already existing (once it does) Netrogames device.

And if Sega approves, for games you don't own cartridges of, we're testing the concept of adverware, free, Sega-authorized downloads and all you have to do is watch one commercial when the system boots, (at least the ones they have the right to distribute in such a way) and play as long as you want afterwords, or until you change remote human opponents, which will cause the machine to reset. And because the Genesis doesn't change hardware-wise, there's no need to update.

Unlike Xbox, Playstation and Nintendo which chew up ad spit out an old console when it's done and stop supporting online. If this works, it will retroactively turn everyting online, with one generic server just trafficking joystick and minor other data.

[Gameguy]

So it's almost XBAND 2.0? Only you have to buy a new system and pay more per month for that special Sprint phone service?


http://i61.tinypic.com/9pnbs9.jpg

[JSoup]

I like the idea, but $125 up front is a lot to ask for this kind of of unproven thing.

Particularly so when there are already less cumbersome, free methods to do the same thing.

[Niku-Sama]

So it's almost XBAND 2.0? Only you have to buy a new system and pay more per month for that special Sprint phone service?


http://i61.tinypic.com/9pnbs9.jpg

glad I wasn't the only one thinking x band

[tripletopper]

There's one major and very important difference. XBand only works with games programmed for it. Netrogames will work with EVERY 2-or-more-player game wihtout any special server profile. Xband only worked with 2 or 3 games that the Xband people decided should work with it. I think it was one of the Street Fighter games and one of the Mortal Kombat games. So you could play Herzog Zwei with my device without programming a specific Herzog Zwei profile. The secret is beating the ping time problem.

UPDATE on Push to Talk Networks: There are only 2 push to talk networks. Verizon and Sprint. Verizon uses 1xrtt which is dial-up speeds and can only have one person "talk" (really squelch) at once. Everyone else listens, and "race" to see who inputs first. Sprint can have 20 simultaneous inputs as 20 separate streams. So in that sense, it's a moderately high speed modem with low ping times. It just that the machine combines them. If I can get to it before it combines the 20 streams, then you can have a 3G-4G low-ping gaming modem that can double as a free unlimited nationwide phone line. It's just if you use it as a modem, it "eats" your phone line, just like Dial Up.

[tripletopper]

I was wrong, there were around 10 Genesis and 10 SNES games that worked with it. But my point is exactly the game, the server had to be programmed to accept it, which only meant the most popular games at that time it came out. It didn't work with Herzog Zwei for example. I know my friend, and nationally known pro gamer, Jamal "Zophar321" Nickens would love to play Herzog Zwei against random humans.

[StoneAgeGamer]

I have played the Genesis over the internet using the Mega EverDrive. KRIKzz wrote a simple pong game that worked with the Mega EverDrive to play over the internet. In Gamester81's review of the Mega EverDrive you can see me playing him as well. Granted it did not work very well, but I think that's more to do with the game KRIKzz wrote, which was very simple. I am sure if someone say down and wrote better code it would have been smoother.

Obviously playing regular Genesis games may not actually work, at least without being hacked somehow to work with the MegaED and the internet. Even if you duplicated the moved back and forth lag would cause them to quickly get out of sync.

[Bojay1997]

I'm not following most of this. Why do you need $17K for research? Isn't this something you could test out for little or no money to create a proof of concept and then once you have that, take preorders to see if enough people are interested? What is the $17K for?

[tripletopper]

Boja, I need 17,000 for a completed prototype. Then I need to build a thousand Net Genesises. I'm intentionally pricing myself high, so that if it comes under budget, some money will be refunded, but I don't know how much it's going to cost until I invest about $500 in analysis. Davison said they can build 2 prototypes and plans to mass produce it for $17,000. It could be less, but that's the maximum. I need $40 to build the Genesis portion of the device. (Again it may actually be less, but better be prepared and refund money not used than take money and realize I'm short and screw myself. I'm just going of the AtGames Genesis price) and the networking device is the most expensive part of it, but should cost no more than $85.

StoneAgeGamer, the whole point of my invention is to push data through in under half a frame, hence the special Sprint connection, which advertises itself as Direct Connect, and says its ping times are anywhere from 1.1 ms-2.5 ms for every 300 km of distance, compared to 40-75 for DSL 600 km apart, between Cleveland and Chicago, which gives you a decent cushion to fit under 16 ms two ways for a 60 FPS game. My theory is if you're able to beat half a frame ping time, then ANY GAME, no matter how great or obscure, will be turned online.

[tripletopper]

Besides Boja, actually having a product is better than just "pay to fund my research" If you want more info about it, call 1-866-DAVISON Ext 50028 and tell Daniel Karteski that you want to know how real this is and their claim is.

[Pikointeractive]

I like this idea, I can help fund it etc. Pm me with details.

[Pr3tty F1y]

Maybe I'm just not understanding how this would work on a technical level.

Having a good ping time makes sense from the stand point of lag and sync. I'm not arguing that. However, if this is some sort of system-specific "lock-on technology," how are you going to filter out just the game's input code to transmit and sync between both sides (to my understanding, this is why XBand only supported a limited number of games and was coded to patch them individually). I'm assuming the device would have to be between the cartridge and the system, especially if there is going to be some sort of matching service (i.e., patch the game to wait, sync-up, identify specific input code, etc.).

[Bojay1997]

Boja, I need 17,000 for a completed prototype. Then I need to build a thousand Net Genesises. I'm intentionally pricing myself high, so that if it comes under budget, some money will be refunded, but I don't know how much it's going to cost until I invest about $500 in analysis. Davison said they can build 2 prototypes and plans to mass produce it for $17,000. It could be less, but that's the maximum. I need $40 to build the Genesis portion of the device. (Again it may actually be less, but better be prepared and refund money not used than take money and realize I'm short and screw myself. I'm just going of the AtGames Genesis price) and the networking device is the most expensive part of it, but should cost no more than $85.

StoneAgeGamer, the whole point of my invention is to push data through in under half a frame, hence the special Sprint connection, which advertises itself as Direct Connect, and says its ping times are anywhere from 1.1 ms-2.5 ms for every 300 km of distance, compared to 40-75 for DSL 600 km apart, between Cleveland and Chicago, which gives you a decent cushion to fit under 16 ms two ways for a 60 FPS game. My theory is if you're able to beat half a frame ping time, then ANY GAME, no matter how great or obscure, will be turned online.

Honestly, maybe there is a language barrier or perhaps you are really well beyond my limited intelligence level, but why would analysis cost anything? Why couldn't you just build a couple of prototypes by hand using standard off the shelf components to test the theory about this thing working? If that works, you'd have proof of concept and you could move forward with a working mass production prototype for the $17K. The market for this type of thing is super limited anyway, but forcing people to use a specific connection that may not be available everywhere and which costs a monthly fee is an absolute product killer. There is no way 1,000 people or more would ever pay for something like that and they certainly aren't going to pay you to do research for something that is likely not to even work as expected.

[tripletopper]

Boja, because I'm not handy enough myself in building such a thing, but I do believe I understand the theory correctly, and I know what technology currently exists. If you can beat that research cost, I'll give you a cut of the business. That's why I'm long-winded on theory, but light in the actual practice. If I knew how to solder a Genesis so I can route joystick, random number, and timestamp data into and out of a network device, and alter a Sprint Direct Connect device to keep 20 separate inputs are kept separate, instead of merging them before you get to the phone, I would go ahead and do it. I need soem help i this department. Davison said they can do it for $17,000 + 10%. Beat that price and you can have the contract. There, I said it.

[tripletopper]

Speaking of Coverage, Here's Sprint's DIRECT CONNECT coverage map. Areas in dark green are useable with the older Direct Connect phones. Anywhere it's not white can be used with a new device. http://coverage.sprint.com and click Direct Connect.

[StoneAgeGamer]

Boja, because I'm not handy enough myself in building such a thing, but I do believe I understand the theory correctly, and I know what technology currently exists. If you can beat that research cost, I'll give you a cut of the business. That's why I'm long-winded on theory, but light in the actual practice. If I knew how to solder a Genesis so I can route joystick, random number, and timestamp data into and out of a network device, and alter a Sprint Direct Connect device to keep 20 separate inputs are kept separate, instead of merging them before you get to the phone, I would go ahead and do it. I need soem help i this department. Davison said they can do it for $17,000 + 10%. Beat that price and you can have the contract. There, I said it.

I have to say it, you sound like a shyster. Wanting money for something that doesn't exist in any form. Something that is just an idea in your head with not a single proof of concept.

I am not for censoring people, but honestly I think this post should be locked and probably deleted. He is asking for money for something that doesn't exist, at all, in any form. I believe this is an attempt to dupe people out of some money.

Asking for pre-order money for something that doesn't exist at all is slimy and unethical. I suggest if you truly believe in this idea you save up your own money and prove it.

[tripletopper]

If I was truly a scheister, I would not have exposed my secret weapon, using a low-ping connection. I would have made it sound like a trade secret, and and asked you to trust me blind. I have given the key to it working so that those who believe this makes sense could help me. Apparently, PikoInteractive said (s)he'd like to help me. If my honesty got someone to help fund it instead of begging the average Retrogamer, I'll drop the pre sales and wait to get a prototype funded before I offer sales of devices. If someone else can make a low ping modem that can play anything, I welcome it. I was just trying to fund it myself. I gave the number of Davison, so that if you trust Davison, that'd be your assurance. So PikoInteractive, respond by calling me on the number I gave in your PM.

[StoneAgeGamer]

If I was truly a scheister, I would not have exposed my secret weapon, using a low-ping connection. I would have made it sound like a trade secret, and and asked you to trust me blind. I have given the key to it working so that those who believe this makes sense could help me. Apparently, PikoInteractive said (s)he'd like to help me. If my honesty got someone to help fund it instead of begging the average Retrogamer, I'll drop the pre sales and wait to get a prototype funded before I offer sales of devices. If someone else can make a low ping modem that can play anything, I welcome it. I was just trying to fund it myself. I gave the number of Davison, so that if you trust Davison, that'd be your assurance. So PikoInteractive, respond by calling me on the number I gave in your PM.

Yes, you actually are asking people to trust you blindly because you have nothing to show. Asking people for money for a product that doesn't exist in any form is not funding it yourself. Funding it yourself would be taking money from your own pocket and building working model and then using that to get investors and/or crowd sourcing to get it into its commercial form. Also, there is no proof your idea will even work, yet you want other people's money for it. I would advise anyone to stay far away from this unless the guy actually shows something. Anyone can come up with an idea, that's the easy part.

[tripletopper]

The more I talk to Sprint about it, the less I like it. They are not sure whether "one person talks, the rest listen" is a restriction of the phone or a restriction of the network. Secondly, they talk about maximum message bursts of 6 or 9 seconds, but not minimum message bursts of milliseconds to microseconds. It was obviously designed for voice in mind, not data. Also the cost is 20 cents per minute by the initiator. Which is an expensive network for playing any 2 player game for the Genesis. It'd be interesting to see if it can be pulled off, but after what Sprint told me, 2 or 3 times in a row, I cannot in good conscience ask for money which is that radical of a change which is too experimental and has too many "what if's" and that expensive to run.

I'll wait until I raise the $17,000 another way (through my income) to make a prototype. Then I can show Sega and the cell networks how this works, and then the work can continue.

In the meantime, I'm talking to Anthony Gaccione about a way to be more likely to find an opponent on Xbox 360, One, PS3, PS4, PS Vita, Wii U and 3DS games, with less endless waiting for opponents on most of the games most of us (at DigitPress.com at least) want to play online, like Xbox Live versions of Daytona USA, Guardian Heroes, Virtua Fighter 2, Sonic the Fighters, Gunstar Heroes, Fighting Vipers, Golden Axe, Streets of Rage, Altered Beast, and any other 2 player online Xbox 360 game. And it will work for other companies' games too. Even Indie games that happen to be online.

If this succeeds, maybe I can fund Netrogames myself. Now I'm taking down my TryCelery site after I post this.

[Pr3tty F1y]

Truthfully, I see this as being a waste of funds. It will seriously be a novelty at best. Check out SNESoIP (https://github.com/mupfelofen-de/SNESoIP). It essentially does with a SNES with what you want to do with a Genesis, just over ethernet. Obviously it has latency issues. However, there is no sync, no matching service, or guarantee of desired functionality. It may work, it may even work for a good while, it may totally desync or some sort of randomized event in the game will completely throw it off one end from the other. See this video for example


http://vimeo.com/74037954

From my understanding, the XBAND was able to accept and patch game code on the fly. It could create a standardized start point (i.e., pausing one or both sides to sync up prior to a match) so at least both machines were running identical gamecode at very nearly the same time. Still not a perfect solution, but it had the benefit of being reliable rather than blindly sending input commands with no more than hope that they are properly aligned on the other side to be synced with gameplay.

[stardust4ever]

Sorry, but I cannot see this working at all. Paying a monthly service fee to play vintage games online is ludicrus. Existing servers for modern gaming platforms are generally free, and all but the most popular games more than a couple years old have trouble finding players online, despite the fact the servers are up and running. You are expecting people to put in any 20+ year old game and be able to find other players with the same game to play with???

Firstly, your desire for <16ms of lag is a pipe dream. Internet has lag because of the myriad of switching stations signals need to be routed to. Use of proprietary networks would kill the service before it got off the ground. Modern games overcome lag issues by using intelligent prediction algorithms to predict player behavior. Course correction occurs as the input streams are updated. This can make even 130-250ms of lag feel like realtime. But all this predictive input needs to be programmed into the game engine, and even though the bandwidth necessary to track controller inputs andvplayer data is low, the prediction algorithms require a huge amount of CPU time, more than what vintage consoles could handle, but only a fraction of what modern consoles can pull. Secondly, safeguards are in place to ensure the game consoles do not desync. Player coordinates and velocity are usually updated periodically to prevent errors. If one player's game console runs .0001% faster or slower than the other, they will desync within a few minutes.

Typically dedicated servers are necessary to handle the bits going in and out. So what if two gamers are next door when the signal has to go to a server half way around the world and back? Direct connect is no good because one console will have to be master and the other console slave. This is how emulators do it with Kallihera or whatever it's called. I tried it once, running an NES emulator off a flash drive in a school computer lab, with my friend playing on the PC next to me. Both PCs had IP addresses adjacent to each other, meaning they were connected to the same router. Each building had a huge router that handled hundreds of connections. The input lag was so bad, most games were entire unplayable, and that was between the router and a couple hundred feet or so of LAN line.

Clasdic games are just not gonna work this way. Emulator people have tried it, and quite frankly putting this tech into expensive proprietary hardware is simply not worth the effort or investment. I would suggest you scrap the idea or you'll risk bankrupting yourself. Worse still if you do it with investor money.

[chriswy27]

That's the craziest wall of text I've ever read.

While a cool idea its something I would of dreamed of as a kid. As you grow up and life takes its cruel toll on you your dreams will die too :P

Also love the name dropping, I doubt anyone here will know Anthony and in reality he probably sits unnoticed in a cube while his upper management won't give him the time of day to vet ideas.

That being said keep us posted on your progress :). It would be cool if it does work.

[tripletopper]

I've found someone who could help. Sprint has the sprint accelerator program. If you believe a low-ping network is a way to get EVERY Game to work, which Sprint has with its Direct Connect, then click a link on my facebook page. Search for and follow/friend "Brian Ciesicki" on facebook.com, and if you believe this will work, click on the Sprint Accelerator link and support the project with your vote. You don't need to contribute any money, all you need to say is that it's realistic enough where if it were funded, more games would more easily be turned online.

[dra600n]

I think StoneAgeGamer hit the nail on the head already.

This isn't the first time someone had this idea, and the reason why it never went anywhere is because it wasn't worth the work to satisfy such a small, niche market, especially when you can do it for free, not $125 (or was it $175?) + a shitty connection from Sprint (another monthly cost on top of your already existing home internet connection, no thanks), of all companies.

Also, why would you even consider taking preorders on something you can't prove works, will work, and so on? You're selling people on an idea (one that has been discussed by people who would be able to make it happen if it was worth the time and effort) with nothing in return. Taking peoples money before an idea has been proven and an actual market study has been done is right on the lines of being a shyster for sure.

[tripletopper]

I think StoneAgeGamer hit the nail on the head already.

This isn't the first time someone had this idea, and the reason why it never went anywhere is because it wasn't worth the work to satisfy such a small, niche market, especially when you can do it for free, not $125 (or was it $175?) + a shitty connection from Sprint (another monthly cost on top of your already existing home internet connection, no thanks), of all companies.

Also, why would you even consider taking preorders on something you can't prove works, will work, and so on? You're selling people on an idea (one that has been discussed by people who would be able to make it happen if it was worth the time and effort) with nothing in return. Taking peoples money before an idea has been proven and an actual market study has been done is right on the lines of being a shyster for sure.

If you notice the last post I shifted. I'm not asking people to pay $175 for a Net Genesis. It was kind of dubious asking people for money for something unproven. But I have described my theory. If you believe that when you can beat 8 ms ping time one way for a 60 FPS game you can turn any game online, then visit my facebook page and vote for me on SprintAccelerator.com

Sprint would be funding this if I get enough votes. This would be the best thing to happen to Sprint, have a new way to use Direct Connect to play games online. I was intentionally charging lots of money becuase I wanted to cover myself in case the technology was more expensive. Better to ask for a higher price, and refund money, than to beg twice. Now I don't have to beg for money, just your vote. Visit facebook.com, Friend/follow "Brian Ciesicki" and click on the Sprint Accelerator Link to vote for Netrogames.

Xband didn't work because it's all 3: low bandwidth, high ping, and not universal. Most other networks accept high-ping as a given. If you accpet that notion, then the consequence is that you need artificial intelligence to anticipate moves, a staple of modern online gaming, thus non-universality. I say, lower the ping, increase the universality. The only sacrifice is physical range. (1600 km if the network is 67% efficient.)

A 6 button Genesis 6-button joypad has 12 bits N,S,E,W,A,B,C,X,Y,Z,Start,Mode. I understand Direct Connect has 33 kb/s or 33 b/ms worth of bandwidth. in 1 ms 2 6-buttons controllers can fit (24 b), If you've got 8 ms, eight 6-button Genesis controllers should fit comfortably enough (maybe at a loss of range for an 8-player 6-button game) assuming my theory works. If Sprint believes their network is straight-line quick, they should fund it.

Also do not confuse 3G or 4G with Direct Connect. 3G and 4G are high bandwidth tradtional connections. They have slightly worse ping time becuase it goes from cell to tower to nearest onramp to the internet, across the network to either its destination, or if it's another cell phone to an offramp to the cell network then tower to the other phone. Direct connect is a netowrk owned by one company that goes straight from phone to tower (usually more than 1) to phone. That's why they can deliver a low ping connection. They just never thought of using it with data.

As for finding people to play online, I was thinking of a cell phone texting service, combined with a directory service, kind of like the yellow pages. You put your gamertag listed under a game (possibly hundreds or thousands. If you don't object to playing that game, can play it online, and you own it, list it.) you're willing to play anytime when someone pages you, you answer the page, (or page someone when you are in the mood) and you reach them. This has an advantage over waiting in waiting rooms. You can literally wait in hundreds of waiting rooms, and all you need is a page from one to answer the call. Also you don't have to sit in a waiting room and do nothing. You can do chores, homework, or once that's done, play a more popular game online, or play a game against the computer, and you'll be summoned on your cell phone text message. Another advantage is it anonymously looks up people and matches by game title. So if you want an opponent, any opponent, page them and it will randomly pick a few people on the list to play. They'll text you back, and you meet in that particular games meeting room. Finally if you want to play a Wii U offline game, but want your ear to the ground for PS4/Xbox1 challenges, your phone will text you when you find someone.

This goes hand in glove with Netrogames, because Netrogames would have a hard time finding human opponents without this. But this will also work with current online games that are less popular. Maybe this idea people will get behind more. And it will make both Netrogames as well as older current-gen games more tolerable to wait for and to summon people for. Since they could be developed together, maybe this will get you to vote yes for Netrogames, and even if you never intend to play Genesis game online, maybe you can find an opponent for a 360 or PS3 game easier.

[tripletopper]

And why Sprint and not Verizon or AT&T? (Or DSL, Or Fios, or U-Verse, or the cable company?) Verizon and AT&T are not committed to their low-ping networks. They offer it for a few months and then cancel. Sprint, (and before Sprint bought them, Nextel) was committed to low-ping connection, albeit voice. Do not confuse this with 3G or 4G from Sprint. Verizon and AT&T are not committed to low ping technologies. For what this project needs, commitment to low-ping communications, Sprint is the right network for this project. Regardless of what you think of their other policies, this is a perfect match. As for the other alternatives, they cannot offer straight line internet. They always ping around.

[tripletopper]

Hey Pretty Fly, this technique uses micorpauses in case the network gets out of sync and rewinding and fast forwarding,, but the network pauses and the shifts will be less dramatic, because it will be 1 frame behind or less before it's corrected with micropauses or shifts, or due to the here-today-gone-tomorrow nature of cellular recepiton, a longer pause for quite a few frames of network brownout.

[Oldskool]

It sounds like you are pretty determined to get this done. As a huge lover of the Sega Genesis I would be totally for something like this if you could make it all work well.

Why not just do it like the OnLive did it? Just make a box that is basically a streaming device and have a central server that does all the processing and streaming of the data? But make it for retro gaming ONLY.

I am not too familiar with technology as far as streaming data, cell data, voice, etc etc..

I do not quite understand what hardware would be required to get it going either.. but it sounds like you are talking about a clone Sega plus the network device right? And this clone would accept real carts like an AtGames clone or something similar would as well correct?

My only issue with that idea is no clone can ever get the Genesis right - and they usually outright make the Genesis look and sound like crap. If there was a way to make a clone Genesis with original Yamaha and Motorola chips and 100 percent replicated circuitry I would be all up on it. If it worked.

[JSoup]

Sprint would be funding this if I get enough votes.

No they won't, dude. They don't give a rats fragrant ass about your votes. They care about their bottom line and I can't imagine playing old Genesis games online is going to bring in millions.

[tripletopper]

No they won't, dude. They don't give a rats fragrant ass about your votes. They care about their bottom line and I can't imagine playing old Genesis games online is going to bring in millions.

Don't think Sega alone would be enough? How about the 2600, which was only delayed by a hang-up about "granting too broad a license" (Maybe they either want to make money off obscure third party games or prevent the porno games from being turned online, or don't want to deal with third party hassles)? We also got Intelliviison, Colecovision, and SNK Neo Geo saying, If I can show it working they'll review it then. Plus Sega has other systems that will work with it too. Finally Nintendo said they don't comment on stuff in the idea phase. But once i prove this to works with the guinea pig, the Sega Genesis and/or the 2600, I can make a version for Nintendo, Playstation, and Xbox's old systems, and then we're really cooking. Genesis is just the start, but the first one who got onboard. And it will work regardless of whether these games were originally networkized before or not. Imagine playing Ice Climber head-to-head online, or Mario Bros.,

This also makes keeping tomorrows retro games online easier. Now you don't need one server for each game, each endpoint acts as a generic joystick server for that particular connection. The only reason you need server ref-bots is because of poor ping time. It's a called-as-needed server that's versatile.

Also I'm trying to get a hold of Bally (WB Games maybe), Hudson/NEC (now Konami perhaps), 3DO (now Panasonic?) Philips/Magnavox, for the Astrocade, Turbo Grafx, 3DO, Odyssey 2, and CD-i as systems that can use the treatment. Most of these companies either don't acknowledge their system making past (first 2) or their video game division (last 2)

As for the Genesis not being done right, I don't know how much it costs to buy "made now to old standard" chips need to make the original Genesis when other functions that are independent of the Genesis run on a modern machine, but if it's less than $50, it'd be worth it when you add networking to it. Even if you never network it, you can play it like an original No-printed-English-title-screened Altered Beast version with the original sound effects.

[JSoup]

Don't think Sega alone would be enough? How about.....

You're missing the point. It's not a matter of having "enough", it's a matter of this not being worth developing. There are already better, faster methods to do the exact thing you're proposing for every system you've mentioned. Even if you were to develop this around systems that still aren't properly emulated, you'd still have the problem of playing them on an expensive, slow, buggy network.

[tripletopper]

Currently, the way you make a game online is to program the game individually for the network, which means for x labor you get 1 game made online. So you better make darn sure that is one game people are willing to pay money for.

For the same x labor EVERY game will be turned online with my method. The easiest way to make a universal online system is to beat 16 ms ping time. If you do that then every game is turned online with no individual code for individual games. The only connection that can beat a 16 ms ping time for distances up to 1600 km is Sprint Cellular Direct Connect. (AT&T and Verizon occasionally offer this, but not as consistently as Sprint. It's an everyday emphasized feature at Sprint, unlike the other 2.)

Also if you beat 16 ms, you don't need to have high bandwidths for systems up to the analog joysticks. And if this succeeds for the Genesis, maybe the low ping network will be improved to 300 b/ms then 3 kb/ms then you can do more modern systems in a low-ping way. The only flaw with this is it's ranged. If you want to play outside a 1600 km range, you need to network the traditional way. So don't worry about Xbox Live and PSN, they'll still have a place.

Want to spend x labor to make one game online, or spend x labor to make every game online?

[JSoup]

Currently, the way you make a game online is to program the game individually for the network, which means for x labor you get 1 game made online. So you better make darn sure that is one game people are willing to pay money for.

Are you just completely unaware of how online emulation works?
Most emulators can play any game that has multiplayer built into it online.
ZSNES does it, Gens does it, Visual Boy Advance does it...the list goes on.
A few specific games needed a few tweeks, but by and large any fool can download an emulator, select "open port" and play with anyone on that channel.

[Niku-Sama]

I feel that there's a better way to do it on the hardware side of things. Instead of using a SGOAC which is what it'll ultimately rub down to because of cost and what have you and you'll have compatibility problems with sine games why not make use of the expansion port. They're should be a way

That chikun guy made that expansion port board for the nes and it's got planned upgrades for Ethernet for exactly this.

And speaking of telecommunications.
Sprint wireless service sucks butt and not many people have home service any more. This is from experience. All I hear about at work is frighin cell phones and when you pull up a map of cell coverage for Sprint that isn't a map put together by any other cell phone provider but instead provided by an uninterested 3rd party it shows it.

[tripletopper]

The problem is ping time. Games made for today compensate for poor ping time by taking in lots of data and using artificial intelligence to predict remote humans. Old games have to either be individually programmed for the network to make it act right, or else you've got a skatey, laggy connection that's very hard to react to opponents with. The reason why Sprint works is because they are the only ones to consistently have a low-ping connection, a 1 ms/300 km connection, Direct Connect. You could do it with a standard emulator and connection, but 2 problems are certain games have to be programmed to the emulator to get them to work, and the ping time issue of traditional networks. My idea would also work with an emulation, but because this solution works with EVERY game, let's not limit ourselves to the games that are emulated well.

[StarRocks64]

I just want to point out that the Sega Channel and Sega itself is part of the reason we even have online gaming today.

[tripletopper]

True, Sega Channel started a game download service on Genesis, the Saturn had a few fleeting signs of internet(?/direct dial data?) in the Saturn, and parlayed that into the internet on the Dreamcast. Sega had to deal with what they had. Most of the world was dial-up and and Cellular Direct Connect was an obscure business solution from Nextel. Sega made great games in the constraints they had at the time. Faster speeds opened up the types of games that coud be played online, but I believe lower ping times will make retrofitting old games online even easier. So you can literally play the Master System and Genesis online against a remote human opponent, like the Genesis modem was intended to.

The Genesis modem was released in Japan, but then again, Japan is a way smaller footprint, and more densely populated universe of gamers than American gamers who have miles of country road between decent sized rural cities/towns/villages, have the big city population split between about 30-40 major metro locations with hundreds of miles between neighboring major metro cities. Ping time would be less of an issue if the whole country is within a half-light-frame distance (1 light millisecond is 300 km, and frames times were 16 ms/frame assuming 60 frames a second.)

By the way I found a Sega Channel device for a couple of bucks, because I told the shop owner the service is down ever since the days of the Dreamcast. I never used it, but I have the device. I also have found a Net Link for cheap, and even played Bomberman on it. it was such a big hassle to find an opponent to play. I only did it once with a friend at my side. It was limited to one-vs-one or two-on-one-Saturn-vs-two-on-another. And long distance was toll charged.

[tripletopper]

.. you'd still have the problem of playing them on an expensive, slow, buggy network.

Speed in terms of bits per second is won hands down by the DSL Cabe, Fios and other land based networks. Where they fail and where Sprint succeeds is low ping time. 1 ms / 300 km. A ping test between Cleveland and Chicago (distance 600 km one-way, 1200 km two ways) took 40 ms That is a rate of 1 ms / 30 km An 8 ms half frame ping time gives you an effectual linear range of 240 km assuming 100% efficiency.

Plus consider this, Sprint designed the Direct Connect network to work at dial up speeds. If this succeeds, they can make a protocol which can do the same low ping connection with more bits per millisecond up from 33 b/ms to 300 or even 3000.

And for gaming, isn't lower ping time more important than faster bits/ms speed? The only reason you need high bits/ms is to compensate for poor ping.

[Niku-Sama]

I don't understand why your so hell bent on response time when the average PC gamer sees response time over cable at about what your explaining this sprint thing is at.
I regularly see sub 40ms response time when I am online playing games and its just a plain ol cable internet connection running 60 Mbit/sec average

even at 80ms response time most people aren't even going to notice unless they are playing a game like super street fighter 2 tubo championship edition with the speed cranked.
you would be much better off figuring out a way to make an expansion port peripheral that uses Ethernet, plaing and simple. the cost would be less, it would be more flexable and a simple 10/100 port is WAY more than enough to handle small bits of input and check bits from a 16 bit game, hell it could probably transfer the whole game rom back and forth 80 or more times in a minutes time while maintaining a response time of the 2 clients registering arrival of 40ms


And for gaming, isn't lower ping time more important than faster bits/ms speed? The only reason you need high bits/ms is to compensate for poor ping.

THATS EXACTLY WHAT A PING IS! faster transfer response not faster transfer speed, faster is faster is faster! so even if you had a faster transfer speed your response should be shorter aswell (depending on network weather) I think your getting throughput mixed up with response/ping.
I think I have a few telecommunications books around here, a little old but still viable, one even deals in cellular networks

[tripletopper]

The reason why ping is important is because the easiest way to retroactively turn the most games online is to beat 16 ms two-way ping time. Games are 60 frames per second, which translates to 16 ms/frame. The reason why modern games made for the network work is because they compensate for poor ping time by using high bandwidths. But retroactively turn old games not meant to be online into online games without doing the programming to make it work with a faster (in terms of bits/second), but higher ping network, is to reduce ping time to 16 ms two-ways. With a high-ping, high-bandwidth network, you can program modern games more efficiently. This is for retroactively turning old games online. If you don't have a low ping network, you'll be playing a jumpy, laggy, skatey version of the game.

If you want a retrogame to work retroactively with a standard network, you'll have to individually program it to work. That's why Sega released it's "fighter trilogy" (Fighting Vipers, Virtua Fighter 2, Sonic the Fighters) on Xbox and Playstation so close to each other and offered them for $5 a piece, because the network programming is close enough to each other that it was worth releasing all 3 within a week. Otherwise, if you don't take advantage of similarities, then it's real expensive to reprogram games to work with networks, and real risky.

Using low ping takes advantage of a similarity where if you can beat 16 ms, then all you have to do is rewind a maximum of 1 frame and fast forward instantly. Whereas most traditional networks have people popping in and out and rewinding 5-10 frames back and forth. To minimize those jump cuts, you have to constantly update the game, which is easy enough, but requires constant work to update it.

Most old games are not worth the work to turn them indiviudally online. Using a low ping network is the most eficient way to to turn the most games online with minimal labor.

[badinsults]

I'd just like to point out that Retroarch (http://www.libretro.com/) should be able to do netplay, without the need of some silly pie-in-the-sky networking plan. It has a core for the Genesis as well! Making a hardware implementation of Libretro would likely be pretty straightforward, considering that the Retron essentially used Retroarch for their hardware (without adhering to the open source license).

Nobody is going to give you money, when it is clear you don't know the first thing about hardware engineering, and when netplay of classic console games is already possible with emulators. No amount of multi-post rants are going to change that.

[sloan]

Been observing this thread for a while. The gaping hole in OP's theory is that all games will require recoding to permit online play, regardless of ping rates.In the least, each game will require a front end interface that allows the player to choose an online option, or else what tells the rest of the game to sync up with the player on the other end, if that is even possible with aforementioned algorithms to make up for network lag?

[portnoyd]

I want some of the acid the OP dropped right before he made the original post in the thread. Wow. This idea is literally everything but a good idea.

[JSoup]

Most old games are not worth the work to turn them individually online. Using a low ping network is the most efficient way to to turn the most games online with minimal labor.

What part of pretty much any retro multiplayer game you can think of is already playable online and has been for 10+ years over private lines that are dynamically generated due to the coding skill of one guy is difficult for you to grasp?

[MASTERWEEDO]

I want some of the acid the OP dropped right before he made the original post in the thread. Wow. This idea is literally everything but a good idea.

I'll take some of those doses.